Author Topic: FB: Middle Atlantic Conference  (Read 1211374 times)

Offline PBR...

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1575 on: December 19, 2005, 08:31:13 am »
maybe i am way way off here and pat or warren can chime in and correct me but i thought i remember reading somewhere that mount union was at the div II level and dropped to div III....thus when they first started winning all these championships they had a number of div II players playing against div III players....of course that was a long time ago and success gets success evident by their recruiting and keeping great things going. Or maybe i put too much brandy in my egg nog and am thinking of another team....

Offline frank uible

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1576 on: December 19, 2005, 08:36:20 am »
I don't think that scenario applies to Mount Union, but something roughly similar happened at Dayton.

Offline Warren Thompson

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1577 on: December 19, 2005, 08:52:40 am »
maybe i am way way off here and pat or warren can chime in and correct me but i thought i remember reading somewhere that mount union was at the div II level and dropped to div III....thus when they first started winning all these championships they had a number of div II players playing against div III players....of course that was a long time ago and success gets success evident by their recruiting and keeping great things going. Or maybe i put too much brandy in my egg nog and am thinking of another team....

To my knowledge, MUC has always competed at the D3 level. They had some good and some not so good seasons under Ken Wable; they took off with the advent of Larry Kehres (in 1986?), though there was that "down" year, 1989, when they went 7-2-1.

Dayton is a different story. The Flyers are D1 in basketball, but, until the rules were changed, played D3 football (they now are D1AA non-scholarship, I believe).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 09:05:45 am by Warren Thompson »

Offline PBR...

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1578 on: December 19, 2005, 10:02:59 am »
thx warren, hmmmm i get a -22 karma for what?? putting too much brandy in my egg nog???? bah humbug i say!!!!

Offline frank uible

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1579 on: December 19, 2005, 11:47:18 am »
About 20 years ago Dayton was playing DIA football competing with Mid-America Conference colleges and the like. Then in one year it went directly to DIII football and, as I recall, consequently withdrew its football grants-in-aid to its football players (I don't remember whether Dayton players were given the option of staying at Dayton keeping their grants-in-aid but without having the opportunity to play football). Some of Dayton's players transfered to other college programs, but others stayed at Dayton without grants-in-aid and played football. Until this latter group played out its eligibility at Dayton, Dayton was playing a non-scholarship schedule with a substantial number of scholarship quality players who at that time were not on football scholarship. In these circumstances Dayton went to the DIII playoffs for several years and in 1989 won it. Does anyone have a better recollection of this matter?

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1580 on: December 19, 2005, 11:55:03 am »
maybe i am way way off here

You're way off, yes. :)

Frank, I think what happened at Dayton was they were giving scholarships to track athletes who just happened to also play football.
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Offline Lyco80

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1581 on: December 19, 2005, 12:51:28 pm »
I am most pleased to see the chatter of late as it relates to parity at the lower levels of NCAA college football. 

Let me rephrase my concern and issue one more time.

If there were a football team at the D1, D1AA, D2 level that won 110 regular season games in a row and then won the national championship 8 out of 13 years there would be something like congressional hearings or an NCAA investigation.  That is a regular season rate of 100% and a national championship success of 62% during this span.  Meanwhile, MUC is overwhelmingly succesful year after year and people seem afraid to even discuss the "notion" of them considering moving up in competition as if such a matter were "un-American."

The very nature of competition demands that your opponent has some reasonable probability at victory, if not, then this is something other than competition.  Sure on any given day, blah, blah, blah, but the truth is that MUC is a juggernaut that has, and will, continue to run roughshod over much of D3.  I see nothing in the present or near future to change that and wonder why more people are not questioning the status quo rather than defending it. 

Also, does anyone else find it curious that Garcon, the MUC talented wide-receiver, left the warmth of Florida for the cool-weather of Ohio, by-passing any number of scholarship offering schools (D1, D1AA, D2) along the way? 

As far as I can see, you cannot have it both ways.  To wit, if he travelled that far to play in Alliance that only underscores my point that MUC will continue to pound other D3 schools.  Or, just perhaps, they are really are a D2 program masquerading at the D3 level.

Also, UWW has an enrollment of 10,500 and MUC 2,200.  Again, the sheer numbers and mathematics would seem to indicate that UWW has a 5 times greater probability of fielding a stronger team.  And yes, trust me, I know about statistics and having taken graduate courses in regression to the mean and linear progression so I know how figures can be manipulated. 

I have posted enough on here to know that the rest of you can snipe and smite at me at will and pick apart my arguments in their minutae.  How about instead of that a reasoned dialogue that entertains the notion that the level of D3 football is elevating or changing?  Or even a discussion about the merits of encouraging the most dominate programs to consider moving up.

I wonder what is at stake here - pride, money or something else? 

And I am not looking to get smacked here - just hoping to get some interaction from MAC posters and the occasional browsers from other leagues.

Merry Christmas.

All The Best




Offline dewcrew88

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1582 on: December 19, 2005, 01:09:12 pm »
I thought he was referring to the Empire 8.

As an E8 guy, we don't want Lycoming in the conference... UC needs to improve, not decline  :D :o

(Disclaimer: This is a joke, in case you don't know.)

Offline dewcrew88

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1583 on: December 19, 2005, 01:11:23 pm »
I am most pleased to see the chatter of late as it relates to parity at the lower levels of NCAA college football. 

Let me rephrase my concern and issue one more time.

If there were a football team at the D1, D1AA, D2 level that won 110 regular season games in a row and then won the national championship 8 out of 13 years there would be something like congressional hearings or an NCAA investigation.  That is a regular season rate of 100% and a national championship success of 62% during this span.  Meanwhile, MUC is overwhelmingly succesful year after year and people seem afraid to even discuss the "notion" of them considering moving up in competition as if such a matter were "un-American."

The very nature of competition demands that your opponent has some reasonable probability at victory, if not, then this is something other than competition.  Sure on any given day, blah, blah, blah, but the truth is that MUC is a juggernaut that has, and will, continue to run roughshod over much of D3.  I see nothing in the present or near future to change that and wonder why more people are not questioning the status quo rather than defending it. 

Also, does anyone else find it curious that Garcon, the MUC talented wide-receiver, left the warmth of Florida for the cool-weather of Ohio, by-passing any number of scholarship offering schools (D1, D1AA, D2) along the way? 

As far as I can see, you cannot have it both ways.  To wit, if he travelled that far to play in Alliance that only underscores my point that MUC will continue to pound other D3 schools.  Or, just perhaps, they are really are a D2 program masquerading at the D3 level.

Also, UWW has an enrollment of 10,500 and MUC 2,200.  Again, the sheer numbers and mathematics would seem to indicate that UWW has a 5 times greater probability of fielding a stronger team.  And yes, trust me, I know about statistics and having taken graduate courses in regression to the mean and linear progression so I know how figures can be manipulated. 

I have posted enough on here to know that the rest of you can snipe and smite at me at will and pick apart my arguments in their minutae.  How about instead of that a reasoned dialogue that entertains the notion that the level of D3 football is elevating or changing?  Or even a discussion about the merits of encouraging the most dominate programs to consider moving up.

I wonder what is at stake here - pride, money or something else? 

And I am not looking to get smacked here - just hoping to get some interaction from MAC posters and the occasional browsers from other leagues.

Merry Christmas.

All The Best





Garcon WAS an E8 guy before playing for the national champs, by the way... ::)

Offline tecmobowler

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1584 on: December 19, 2005, 01:18:33 pm »
I assume it was grades or SAT's that kept him out of a D-1 type school. Not sure when enticed him about Norwich, or how he eventually ended up with Mount.

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Offline Warren Thompson

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1585 on: December 19, 2005, 01:22:07 pm »
D3football.com "Features" column for 28 September 2005 highlights Garcon. He wanted to go to Syracuse, but his SATs kept him out. He played one year for Norwich before transferring to Mt. Union for the current season.

Thus, I suppose we can infer from the facts above that his SAT scores kept him out of D1, yet were good enough for a couple of D3 venues.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 01:27:12 pm by Warren Thompson »

Offline PBR...

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1586 on: December 19, 2005, 01:22:20 pm »
i watched the game and was really impressed by both qb's they had strong arms and both teams were well coached. congrats to mu on another trophy.

Offline 'gro

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1587 on: December 19, 2005, 02:31:35 pm »
Lyco... you need to dumb down your posts for the Gro, my brain hurts.

I Don't know what to think about MUC's stance at the top of D3. As a fan, seeing them win just about every year gets boring. But they do set the standard of excellence... so when a team like SJU beats them (and handles them soundly) like in 03... it's big news.

A few years back it was Marshall and Youngstown St that owned DI-AA... Marshall made the move, Youngstown didn't.

I really don't know where this post is going so I'll just stop here and say "when in rome".

Offline frank uible

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1588 on: December 19, 2005, 03:10:32 pm »
Mount Union's competitors have 4 alternatives within their control: 1) keep on doing what they have been doing and accept the consequences; 2) attempt to get better; 3)acquiesce and attempt to get worse; and 4) stop competing with Mount Union. There is a lot of running room within those options. No need for Mount Union to change its relationship to DIII.

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Middle Atlantic Conference
« Reply #1589 on: December 19, 2005, 04:29:17 pm »
Also, UWW has an enrollment of 10,500 and MUC 2,200.  Again, the sheer numbers and mathematics would seem to indicate that UWW has a 5 times greater probability of fielding a stronger team.

That would be true if everyone on the team was a walk-on, but since student-athletes are recruited to schools specifically to play, that is not the case.
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