Author Topic: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference  (Read 2742819 times)

Offline WUPHF

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19800 on: May 23, 2019, 04:25:29 pm »
I think this could result in a further split of the MIAC ... but too early to really put a finger on it. I just don't think some of the others are going to let this be the end of it all.

This is possible but I doubt it.

No one is going to take a chance on being on the outside looking in.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:07:13 pm by WUPHF »

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19801 on: May 23, 2019, 07:15:21 pm »
I think this could result in a further split of the MIAC ... but too early to really put a finger on it. I just don't think some of the others are going to let this be the end of it all.

This is possible but I doubt it.

No one is going to take a chance on being on the outside looking in.

My thought as well.

The whole point behind the more neutral-minded presidents backing the play of the anti-Tommies faction was to save the league. I can't imagine those presidents agreeing to such a drastic step as the one that they just took if they knew that there was still a chance that the league would dissolve anyway. And the bottom line is to keep the league -- both for travel reasons and for AQ reasons -- intact.
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Offline WUPHF

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19802 on: May 23, 2019, 07:39:17 pm »
By the way, St. Thomas just broke in to the top 5 in the Director's Cup. They are very good at sports.

Offline markerickson

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19803 on: May 28, 2019, 10:56:50 pm »
I've read UST's enrollment of >7,000 students contributed to the decision to kick the Tommies to the curb.  Where will UST go?  The WIAC seems like the only option, but will that conference accept a private school?
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Offline miac952

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19804 on: May 29, 2019, 10:24:22 am »
I've read UST's enrollment of >7,000 students contributed to the decision to kick the Tommies to the curb.  Where will UST go?  The WIAC seems like the only option, but will that conference accept a private school?

Enrollment seems to be the most frequently misquoted number. Actual undergrad enrollment by how the NCAA tracks it is around 5,800 I believe.

Options for UST:

Direct to D1: My understanding is a legal team is preparing filings for NCAA  to seek an exemption, based on the "involuntary removal". Barriers would include not being able to get NCAA approval, not having a conference sponsor (Pioneer, Summit?), and not being able to generate the capital campaign support necessary for this path (scholarships, facility upgrades)

DII: NSIC - Opening in two years with Augustana (SD) moving to D1. Regional conference that fits UST's geography nicely. UST would be an academic oddity however. This move would feel quite temporary. Would NSIC accept them knowing it might be temporary.

DIII: WIAC or ARC. Some of have brought up the prestigious UAA. Very unlikely given UST's academic profile is distant from the lowest ranking academic member. While UST is on a path towards that level (elevating programs, loftier admission standards, feasability on medical school), they are long ways from getting there (8-10 years). WIAC and ARC would both be semi-odd placements, and would require either conference to reach geographically to invite them in. It's nice for hockey and baseball in the WIAC, but beyond that, UST brings a lot of travel costs to the Eastern half of the conference and dilutes opportunities for NCAA qualifiers in events.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19805 on: May 29, 2019, 10:53:55 am »
That's a pretty good assessment, miac952, except that St. Thomas is a lot further away than 8-10 years from being UAA material. The schools in that league have achieved their academic status over generations. There are no fly-by-night institutions in the organization to which all UAA schools belong, the Association of American Universities, the umbrella organization of elite national research universities in the United States and Canada. The emphasis is upon the "research" part of that description, as research and publishing (and the federal grants that are part and parcel of said research) are a key aspect of what the AAU is all about, and as a result the actual focus of that organization is at the graduate level.

That's not to disparage St. Thomas at all. By all accounts it's an excellent school. The actual institutional niche into which UST seems to be evolving is the grouping of mid-sized regional Catholic universities in the urban Midwest that includes Creighton, Loyola, DePaul, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, and Marquette. That's not bad company.
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Offline miac952

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19806 on: May 29, 2019, 01:01:06 pm »
That's a pretty good assessment, miac952, except that St. Thomas is a lot further away than 8-10 years from being UAA material. The schools in that league have achieved their academic status over generations. There are no fly-by-night institutions in the organization to which all UAA schools belong, the Association of American Universities, the umbrella organization of elite national research universities in the United States and Canada. The emphasis is upon the "research" part of that description, as research and publishing (and the federal grants that are part and parcel of said research) are a key aspect of what the AAU is all about, and as a result the actual focus of that organization is at the graduate level.

That's not to disparage St. Thomas at all. By all accounts it's an excellent school. The actual institutional niche into which UST seems to be evolving is the grouping of mid-sized regional Catholic universities in the urban Midwest that includes Creighton, Loyola, DePaul, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, and Marquette. That's not bad company.

Sorry, to clarify, 8-10 years away from really advancing on many of the stated goals I noted (Med School, further increasing admission standards, programs, and developing nationally recognized research). That would still put them well behind the UAA members of course. You summarized it well.

The cohort you bring up is a good comparable. Drake, Seton Hall, Nova, Butler, and San Diego are others. UST's President, Julie Sullivan, came from the University of San Diego. Not coincidentally UST trustee, alumnus, and San Diego Padres primary owner Ron Fowler had gotten to know Dr. Sullivan quite well. Fowler and Sullivan have established some business school partnerships between USD and UST since then. IF D1 were to become a viable option, the USD model might be one that UST pursues.

Offline WUPHF

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19807 on: May 29, 2019, 08:08:23 pm »
The actual institutional niche into which UST seems to be evolving is the grouping of mid-sized regional Catholic universities in the urban Midwest that includes Creighton, Loyola, DePaul, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, and Marquette. That's not bad company.

I would say that there is a bit of a divide between St. Thomas and the schools you mention in terms of the academic enterprise.  For example, DePaul is the largest Catholic university in the nation.  SLU and Loyola have medical schools.  These schools are research intensive by the old Carnegie classification.

Offline jamtod

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19808 on: May 29, 2019, 09:56:27 pm »
The actual institutional niche into which UST seems to be evolving is the grouping of mid-sized regional Catholic universities in the urban Midwest that includes Creighton, Loyola, DePaul, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, and Marquette. That's not bad company.

I would say that there is a bit of a divide between St. Thomas and the schools you mention in terms of the academic enterprise.  For example, DePaul is the largest Catholic university in the nation.  SLU and Loyola have medical schools.  These schools are research intensive by the old Carnegie classification.

At this point, it's still aspirational. Medical school options have been considered, including partnerships with Mayo, etc. This is basically where UST finds itself - too big and with too many schemes to remain welcome in the MIAC, but not really there yet compared to the next level schools. From what I gather, Dayton seems like a pretty good comparable on a number of levels.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19809 on: May 29, 2019, 11:35:41 pm »
I've read UST's enrollment of >7,000 students contributed to the decision to kick the Tommies to the curb.  Where will UST go?  The WIAC seems like the only option, but will that conference accept a private school?

Enrollment seems to be the most frequently misquoted number. Actual undergrad enrollment by how the NCAA tracks it is around 5,800 I believe.

Options for UST:

Direct to D1: My understanding is a legal team is preparing filings for NCAA  to seek an exemption, based on the "involuntary removal". Barriers would include not being able to get NCAA approval, not having a conference sponsor (Pioneer, Summit?), and not being able to generate the capital campaign support necessary for this path (scholarships, facility upgrades)

DII: NSIC - Opening in two years with Augustana (SD) moving to D1. Regional conference that fits UST's geography nicely. UST would be an academic oddity however. This move would feel quite temporary. Would NSIC accept them knowing it might be temporary.

DIII: WIAC or ARC. Some of have brought up the prestigious UAA. Very unlikely given UST's academic profile is distant from the lowest ranking academic member. While UST is on a path towards that level (elevating programs, loftier admission standards, feasability on medical school), they are long ways from getting there (8-10 years). WIAC and ARC would both be semi-odd placements, and would require either conference to reach geographically to invite them in. It's nice for hockey and baseball in the WIAC, but beyond that, UST brings a lot of travel costs to the Eastern half of the conference and dilutes opportunities for NCAA qualifiers in events.

Per the D1 option ... as I was told this weekend from those who know ... the exemption is mainly about not getting any options at DII (which is one of the ones you mentioned). You can look at Rowan as a possible candidate for this option. They have been interested in DII (and on to DI) for quite some time, but no conference in DII will endorse and accept them, thus they are stuck. However, they could claim that no DII is willing to take them and they can try and get an exemption to join DI. But again, I believe they need a conference sponsor and the process is at least five years as I was told. Being kicked out of a DIII conference I don't believe will open any doors to DI. I don't think DI is a realistic option whatsoever.

I don't think DII is as great an option, either, but I am leery of all DII moves for a lot of reasons. NSIC may not be interested for the reasons given (knowing it could be temporary), but I am not sure UST really wants to spend that kind of money for DII or DI.

DIII has options, but UAA isn't one of them. UST would have to become a Tier 1 research institution. As I understand it, they aren't really close to that. That would take a MASSIVE amount of money to change the direction, really, of UST. They would have to become a Johns Hopkins like institution ... I'm just not sure that is in the cards. I like the idea of UAA for a few reasons (knowing there is another institution that has considered this; makes it an even addition), but I am just not sure that is realistic by any measure. Furthermore, what do they do in the meantime?

I'm still of the opinion this move by the MIAC ... will have after-shocks to come that will change the landscape in the next two years. No need to figure it out now ... there is time.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19810 on: May 30, 2019, 05:18:13 am »
The actual institutional niche into which UST seems to be evolving is the grouping of mid-sized regional Catholic universities in the urban Midwest that includes Creighton, Loyola, DePaul, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, and Marquette. That's not bad company.

I would say that there is a bit of a divide between St. Thomas and the schools you mention in terms of the academic enterprise.  For example, DePaul is the largest Catholic university in the nation.  SLU and Loyola have medical schools.  These schools are research intensive by the old Carnegie classification.

Hence, the words that I've bolded the second time around. ;)
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Offline WUPHF

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19811 on: May 30, 2019, 03:23:50 pm »
Maybe I should have said very big divide.  Too early to see St. Thomas as the next DePaul, St. Louis, Marquette etc...

My prediction: they do not evolve far enough to become worthy of the phrase peer school.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19812 on: May 30, 2019, 03:40:56 pm »
You very well could be right in predicting that UST never reaches that niche, although it appears that that's where UST's institutional leadership wants the school to be. But it only amplifies my original point, which is that St. Thomas is light-years distant from even being mentioned in the same sentence as the UAA.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19813 on: June 07, 2019, 01:52:21 am »


Usually we try and relax in the offseason. We have always had ideas of doing an off-season podcast, but we usually end up being distracted by other things. This off-season we decided to go for it.

We did get some "down time" in between the end of the season through the end of May, but we are ready to get back into chatting about DIII - basketball especially.

And there is plenty to talk about starting with the "MIAC Decision" or #TomToss.

Dave McHugh is joined by Pat Coleman to discuss why (no, really, why?!) some of the MIAC presidents decided to "involuntarily" remove St. Thomas from the conference it helped found 99-years ago. We talk about the history, the flaws in the supposed arguments (though, no president has gone on record), and what options UST has moving forward. Dave also gives his thoughts on the topic.

Also hear from two coaches who made some unexpected job decisions this off-season. Dave chats with Sam Hargraves who left Alma for fellow-MIAA member Olivet despite his alma mater, Calvin, having a job opening. And Gordon Mann chats with Michael Coppolino who shifted coasts to take over the vaunted George Fox program - something that was even unusual for GFU.

Plus, a brief look at some of the other coaching decisions as the calendar turns towards summer.

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops .com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. The May Edition is an audio-only podcast. You can listen to it here: http://bit.ly/2WPSdKM

Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Pat Coleman, Editor-in-Chief D3sports .com
- Sam Hargraves, new Olivet men's coach
- Michael Coppolino, new George Fox women's coach (interviewed by D3hoops .com's Gordon Mann)

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville




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Offline Miacmaniac33

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Re: MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19814 on: August 11, 2019, 06:10:16 pm »
I know this board has been dead for a while, does anyone here know who the MIAC teams secured for top incoming freshman for this upcoming season and any transfers coming in from scholarship schools?