Author Topic: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference  (Read 2545846 times)

Offline bleedpurple

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35430 on: February 13, 2014, 04:47:40 pm »
I agree with each of the last 3 posts. And I think Emma's point about a coach out-thinking himself came into play in both the UMHB game and the Mount game. (I don't even remember the Linfield situation you speak of).  Easy to say after the fact but IMO, both the Cru and the Purple Raiders made the wrong decision and did out-think themselves. The Cru really needed a TD and the Purple Raiders really needed points. I am in HSCoach's camp in hating timeouts when the offense is on a roll.

On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.
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Offline emma17

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35431 on: February 13, 2014, 07:27:03 pm »
I agree with each of the last 3 posts. And I think Emma's point about a coach out-thinking himself came into play in both the UMHB game and the Mount game. (I don't even remember the Linfield situation you speak of).  Easy to say after the fact but IMO, both the Cru and the Purple Raiders made the wrong decision and did out-think themselves. The Cru really needed a TD and the Purple Raiders really needed points. I am in HSCoach's camp in hating timeouts when the offense is on a roll.

On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.

The reason I remember Linfield is because I've been listening to the replay- I need a life.
The play happened after the fumbled kick return early first quarter.
Interestingly UWW faced a fourth down on the third quarter drive they took the lead on. No time out before the play. Same thing in the Stagg on second TD drive I believe- went for it on 4 th and no time out. Both situations the O was rolling.

Offline Just Bill

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35432 on: February 14, 2014, 04:09:26 pm »
On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.

Statistically speaking, you are incorrect. Teams that go for it on 4th down more often generate an average of 1.5 to 2.5 more points per game over the course of a season and give up fewer points as well (because the other team's offense is on the field less). The advantage only shifts if the team that is going for it has a significantly superior defense. In that case, it makes more sense to punt more often.

Almost all research that goes into this (and there's a lot) indicate the most college and NFL coaches are too conservative on fourth down. Presumably, because going with "conventional wisdom" will save you from media/fan criticism when things fail. NFL coaches are generally more conservative than college coaches.

Obviously any one particular situation can be more or less risky, but generally fortune favors the brave on this topic.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 05:22:49 pm by Just Bill »
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Offline 02 Warhawk

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35433 on: February 14, 2014, 04:47:22 pm »
I agree with each of the last 3 posts. And I think Emma's point about a coach out-thinking himself came into play in both the UMHB game and the Mount game. (I don't even remember the Linfield situation you speak of).  Easy to say after the fact but IMO, both the Cru and the Purple Raiders made the wrong decision and did out-think themselves. The Cru really needed a TD and the Purple Raiders really needed points. I am in HSCoach's camp in hating timeouts when the offense is on a roll.

On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.

This reminds me of the Oshkosh game in 2012, when they won in Whitewater. I think there was a point in the game when Whitewater was making a strong comeback, and they had the chance to kick the field goal to pull within one score. The whole crowd was yelling to go for it. I seemed to be the only one (along with maybe FF413) screaming "no way, kick it!!" Needless to say they went for it, didn't get it, and basically killed any hopes of completing comeback.

but obviously my hindsight is 20/20...so who knows what would have happened if UWW connected on that 4th down play.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:51:05 pm by 02 Warhawk »
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Offline bleedpurple

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35434 on: February 14, 2014, 09:21:07 pm »
On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.

Statistically speaking, you are incorrect. Teams that go for it on 4th down more often generate an average of 1.5 to 2.5 more points per game over the course of a season and give up fewer points as well (because the other team's offense is on the field less). The advantage only shifts if the team that is going for it has a significantly superior defense. In that case, it makes more sense to punt more often.

Almost all research that goes into this (and there's a lot) indicate the most college and NFL coaches are too conservative on fourth down. Presumably, because going with "conventional wisdom" will save you from media/fan criticism when things fail. NFL coaches are generally more conservative than college coaches.

Obviously any one particular situation can be more or less risky, but generally fortune favors the brave on this topic.

Interesting statistics. However, I don't think those statistics are specific to the point I was trying to make. My point wasn't whether a team should game-plan to aggressively go for it on 4th down a higher number of times.  My point is that in the context of a close game,  when the moment arrives that a team chooses to "go for it" on a fourth down, it represents a great "opportunity" for the defense. I wasn't speaking to success rate of 4th down conversions. I guess another way to say it is, in the normal flow of a close game stopping a 4th down play is a bigger play in the game than converting a 4th down play. Much like I would say blocking an extra point is a bigger play than making an extra point, even though statistics heavily favor the success rate of converting the extra point.
WIWA= Whitewater is Whitewater again.

Offline bleedpurple

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35435 on: February 14, 2014, 09:24:33 pm »
I agree with each of the last 3 posts. And I think Emma's point about a coach out-thinking himself came into play in both the UMHB game and the Mount game. (I don't even remember the Linfield situation you speak of).  Easy to say after the fact but IMO, both the Cru and the Purple Raiders made the wrong decision and did out-think themselves. The Cru really needed a TD and the Purple Raiders really needed points. I am in HSCoach's camp in hating timeouts when the offense is on a roll.

On a slightly different note, I think many people (think of those fans screaming for a team to "go for it") have a skewed perspective of profit/loss when it comes to "going for it" on 4th down. Generally speaking, I see it as a greater opportunity for the defense than it is for the offense. Stop a team on fourth down and you have the ball, you have momentum, and you have a defense feeling awesome about themselves.  Offensively, you get a first down and you still have the ball with a chance for a TD, but you still have not put any points on the board. Obviously there is a time and place to go for it, but I believe it is a greater opportunity for the defense than the offense.

This reminds me of the Oshkosh game in 2012, when they won in Whitewater. I think there was a point in the game when Whitewater was making a strong comeback, and they had the chance to kick the field goal to pull within one score. The whole crowd was yelling to go for it. I seemed to be the only one (along with maybe FF413) screaming "no way, kick it!!" Needless to say they went for it, didn't get it, and basically killed any hopes of completing comeback.

but obviously my hindsight is 20/20...so who knows what would have happened if UWW connected on that 4th down play.

What's 2012?  ;D
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Offline AO

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35436 on: February 17, 2014, 12:10:38 am »
Bit of an update on the best new athlete in the WIAC.  Kstp went out to River Falls to interview Andre McDonald in his new dorm.  Andre admitted to cocaine usage, but appears to be turning his life around and has even reunited wth his mom, who he hasn't been close with since the 9th grade.  No video online, but they may put it up now that it has aired.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:36:45 am by AO »

Offline Just Bill

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35437 on: February 17, 2014, 11:11:03 am »
I'm all for young people trying to put their lives back together. Hoping he gets all the support he needs to make it happen, with or without sports.
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Offline AO

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35438 on: February 17, 2014, 10:49:26 pm »
I'm all for young people trying to put their lives back together. Hoping he gets all the support he needs to make it happen, with or without sports.
KSTP has delivered the video.  http://kstp.com/sports/stories/S3328663.shtml

Offline bleedpurple

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35439 on: February 17, 2014, 11:08:56 pm »
I'm all for young people trying to put their lives back together. Hoping he gets all the support he needs to make it happen, with or without sports.
KSTP has delivered the video.  http://kstp.com/sports/stories/S3328663.shtml

Thanks for posting the video. Teen Challenge is a great program. And it's a great sign he is taking full responsibility for his actions and making amends where necessary. I wish him nothing but success (except for one Saturday a year :) ), and I look forward to watching him play!
WIWA= Whitewater is Whitewater again.

Offline badgerwarhawk

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35440 on: February 19, 2014, 09:27:06 am »
I thought this was an interesting article discussing why student aren't going to football games.....

http://footballscoop.com/news/12604-student-attendance-problem

While student attendance at UW-W has been decent I've always thought it was low when you take into account the number of them that we have on campus.  And during the playoffs when they have to pay it can be really low.
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Offline emma17

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35441 on: February 19, 2014, 11:06:21 am »
I thought this was an interesting article discussing why student aren't going to football games.....

http://footballscoop.com/news/12604-student-attendance-problem

While student attendance at UW-W has been decent I've always thought it was low when you take into account the number of them that we have on campus.  And during the playoffs when they have to pay it can be really low.

A very interesting article BW, thanks for sharing. There will be all kinds of ideas and opinions specific to enhancing student attendance at the games. Unfortunately IMO it's a bigger issue- society is so geared to offering more and requiring less.
Sometimes being a fan takes effort and sacrifice.

Offline 02 Warhawk

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35442 on: February 19, 2014, 04:01:40 pm »
I thought this was an interesting article discussing why student aren't going to football games.....

http://footballscoop.com/news/12604-student-attendance-problem

While student attendance at UW-W has been decent I've always thought it was low when you take into account the number of them that we have on campus.  And during the playoffs when they have to pay it can be really low.

A very interesting article BW, thanks for sharing. There will be all kinds of ideas and opinions specific to enhancing student attendance at the games. Unfortunately IMO it's a bigger issue- society is so geared to offering more and requiring less.
Sometimes being a fan takes effort and sacrifice.

I think that last little bit about Alabama is what plagues UWW's attendance. If students/fans assume UWW is going to win each game, then what's the excitement in even going? Beacuse of their success over the past 10 years or so, I bet many students are taking the football team for granted.
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Offline bulk19

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35443 on: February 19, 2014, 11:37:26 pm »
Regarding fan attendence...
I realize it's a generational thing, since I'm not married to a cell phone, and don't even own one... But the kid who says he doesn't go to games because of the terrible phone service there and that it's difficult to stay in touch with the world for the three hours he's there - well, some of us go to football games and sporting events precisely to escape from the world for three hours...

I'd suggest the younger generations with the cell phones in their faces ought to try to put them down for three hours and experience the world around you. You might be amazed at what is happening outside that little black screen...

OK - I'm off my soapbox!  ;)


Offline badgerwarhawk

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Re: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #35444 on: February 20, 2014, 09:58:41 am »
I have to agree with you bulk. 
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