Author Topic: Future of Division III  (Read 657073 times)

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2520 on: June 07, 2019, 06:22:06 am »
The plan behind D4, as it was envisioned by those who were pushing for it a decade ago, was that there would be no national championships awarded in D4 sports. All NCAA-sponsored postseason play would be strictly regional, so that there would be multiple "champions" in every sport. This was to re-emphasize the locally-based aspect of D3 sports that the D4 advocates felt that D3 was getting away from. I'm sure that their dream was to hold a "championship" for which none of the participating student-athletes ever had to miss a class or spend a weeknight in a hotel room, whether that was realistic or not.

In Ralph's scenario of a D4 large enough to have a football playoff of eight teams, this would mean what would be in essence four regionally-based bowl games, all played on the same day in early-to-mid-November, that would end the D4 football season. Nobody would ever play more than an eleven-game season.

Sounds like NJ high school athletics - a very, very silly proposition.
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2521 on: February 19, 2020, 01:49:29 pm »
As belts tighten,

Eastern Washington University faculty members propose cutting sports to pay for academics

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/feb/17/eastern-washington-university-faculty-members-prop/

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2522 on: February 19, 2020, 01:51:01 pm »
As belts tighten,

Eastern Washington University faculty members propose cutting sports to pay for academics

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/feb/17/eastern-washington-university-faculty-members-prop/

As I know most in the business who get it would say ... cutting sports would end up cutting their jobs ... but I digress. :)
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2523 on: February 19, 2020, 02:01:16 pm »
As belts tighten,

Eastern Washington University faculty members propose cutting sports to pay for academics

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/feb/17/eastern-washington-university-faculty-members-prop/

I don't believe athletics should have to cover all their expenses (as they certainly contribute to enrollment just about everywhere), but covering less than 10% of the budget through revenue is a tough sell.
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Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2524 on: February 19, 2020, 02:23:50 pm »
Quote
“When I say Gonzaga, what do you think of?” she [Lynn Hickey, EWU AD] asked, alluding to the success of the Zags basketball team.

"When I say EWU, what do you think of?"
"Emu?   Like the flightless bird?"
"No, EWU, the university."
"EWU who?  I don't know any EWU."
"Eastern Washington University."
"There's a school in Eastern Washington?   Wow, is there a WWU, too?"

Seriously, I wonder how that 10% from alumni/ticket sales compares to other lesser D1 institutions.   I imagine it's not that far from most of the rest.

Offline smedindy

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2525 on: February 19, 2020, 02:37:18 pm »
They have that red field! That's what they're known for.

In most places faculty say something close to this, at least privately.

They usually draw about 8 or 9 thousand a game. I think they have a TV contract with Root Sports.

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2526 on: February 19, 2020, 02:40:06 pm »
LOL - turns out there is a WWU.   Ironically, they killed their [D2] FB program in 2009, a move which (at the time) "Ensures Excellence of All Other Sports". 

Offline smedindy

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2527 on: February 19, 2020, 02:42:33 pm »
You didn't have to ask me. CWU's arch rival is WWU (and Seattle Pacific) and without WWU in football we really don't have an arch rival there.

WWU is in Bellingham and it's said to be the 'safety school' for the Seattle rich kids who can't get into UW.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2528 on: February 19, 2020, 04:28:14 pm »
Quote
“When I say Gonzaga, what do you think of?” she [Lynn Hickey, EWU AD] asked, alluding to the success of the Zags basketball team.

"When I say EWU, what do you think of?"
"Emu?   Like the flightless bird?"
"No, EWU, the university."
"EWU who?  I don't know any EWU."
"Eastern Washington University."
"There's a school in Eastern Washington?   Wow, is there a WWU, too?"

Seriously, I wonder how that 10% from alumni/ticket sales compares to other lesser D1 institutions.   I imagine it's not that far from most of the rest.

Bigger schools have TV revenue to make up for it, though.
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Offline jknezek

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2529 on: April 20, 2020, 09:15:45 am »
I wonder how many small schools are not going to come out of this? Lets start adding up already lost revenue... summer events including sports camps, weddings, scholars programs, alumni programs, summer classes and more. Refunded expenses such as room and board for the spring. Finally, endowment losses.

Now we talk about possible lost revenue in the fall... 1) incoming freshman. Lot of talk about putting college off for a year if you can. 2) international students. Will they be allowed in to the country? These are often the highest paying students. 3) Room and board if you can't open or if you can but are unwilling to open dorms and cafeterias. 3) Tuition. Not everyone is going to pay for online classes.

For DIII schools of course you get the benefit of not paying for sports, but that's small potatoes vs what you could lose if the Fall goes a bit wonky.

Personally, I'd be very concerned for any school with a sub $50MM endowment. Or any school with substantial debt on the books. I'd be mildly concerned for any school with a sub $100MM endowment. I'd be concerned for schools with a less than 1000 person enrollment. I'd be extremely concerned for any with a sub 700 enrollment.

Do I think we are going to see a ton of schools all of a sudden close their doors? No. But I think if we don't see fall classes and 80% first year classes, you are going to see a substantial number, call it 20-50 smaller schools, close before they get to Fall 2021.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2530 on: April 20, 2020, 10:29:15 am »
And as far as D3 competition goes, the situation is exacerbated by the fact that most of the schools that fit the endangered-institution profile you described are clumped together in leagues such as the SLIAC, the CSAC, the Atlantic East, the UMAC, etc.

We could see entire leagues go up in smoke by the time that this is over.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2531 on: April 20, 2020, 12:01:11 pm »

Hearing from one college President recently, I think next summer will be the real mass closing window.  Most schools will be OK coming out of 2019-2020, but if there's a 10% enrollment drop across the board this fall (which is probably a low estimate), a lot of schools won't be able to ride that dip out.  I'm sure we'll see more schools close this year, but it feels like next summer may see even more.
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Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2532 on: April 20, 2020, 12:14:58 pm »
And as far as D3 competition goes, the situation is exacerbated by the fact that most of the schools that fit the endangered-institution profile you described are clumped together in leagues such as the SLIAC, the CSAC, the Atlantic East, the UMAC, etc.

We could see entire leagues go up in smoke by the time that this is over.

2 of the 3 Division II conferences in my neck of the woods are made up of small private schools that I was surprised were still functioning before COVID-19 hit. One of them has 14 members, and if you told me that number will be zero within 36 months, I'd believe you.

Offline hickory_cornhusker

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2533 on: April 20, 2020, 12:50:09 pm »
I have a question: If this gets really bad and 20-30 schools close, would we see Division 3 tournaments reduce the number of teams in the bracket? I know football is way above the 6.5 ratio right now and I think women’s and maybe men’s basketball as well but what about a sport like baseball or ice hockey that has been adding teams recently? Would ice hockey drop back to 11 or even 10 teams to maintain the ratio? Would baseball possibly drop to 52-54 for the same reason?

Offline jknezek

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2534 on: April 20, 2020, 02:17:51 pm »
I have a question: If this gets really bad and 20-30 schools close, would we see Division 3 tournaments reduce the number of teams in the bracket? I know football is way above the 6.5 ratio right now and I think women’s and maybe men’s basketball as well but what about a sport like baseball or ice hockey that has been adding teams recently? Would ice hockey drop back to 11 or even 10 teams to maintain the ratio? Would baseball possibly drop to 52-54 for the same reason?

If it gets really bad you could see a lot worse than this happening. I'm still leaning toward this being the straw that breaks the Power 5 conference back if something happens to part of football season. Could see them heading out on their own to recoup revenue. The loss of revenue to the NCAA would do a lot more than affect ratios. We will see. For the sake of DIII, I hope FBS football can be played on schedule and with as much ticket selling as possible this fall. For the sake of the nation's health, I'm not sure it's a very good idea for that to happen...