Author Topic: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin  (Read 2062079 times)

Offline Stagg or Bust

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24810 on: February 19, 2012, 09:49:09 am »
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2012/02/nefc-splits

Interesting article on d3football.com.  Unfortunately, It appears that Pool C will be shrinking by one slot to accomodate the new conference.  Looks like the two conferences will provide 7 and 8 seeds year in and year out while a strong WIAC, OAC, or CCIW team stays home!!!
I saw that also. I don't think that is a good thing, unless you expand the # of play-off teams by eight and give the #1 seed in each region a fisrt round bye.

From a strict football standpoint, I think it varies from year to year as conferences as a whole typically have up and down periods.  From an NCAA D3 perspective, this is what D3 is about, giving everyone access to a championship.  While the "power" conferences might not like it, the system is set up where everyone has a shot at the playoffs.  If you want in, win the conference and get the pool A slot. You can't fault conferences from using the rules to their advantage.

Good post. While I realize there are some of our colleagues here who, in one sense, do not like the current arrangement in that some weaker conference teams get in by winning their league title and thus the AQ because people want to have the strongest teams in the playoffs.  Yet, I guess that kind of takes care of itself anyway as those teams are obviously weeded out as the playoffs progress each week.  The other side of the arguement, as you well point out, is that every school (except the independents, of course) have a shot at the playoffs, thereby providing a potential (albeit rare obviously) opporunity for some team to have a "cinderlla" venture through the playoffs and maybe, just maybe get lucky and win the entire thing.  Kind of like in the NCAA basketball tourneys now at all three levels where many of the various conferences have their conference tourneys at the end of the regular season and some team that is perhaps quite good, but missed the title by a game or so, has the chance to get in.  Of course, there are two sides/opinions as to that venue.  Anyway, for DIII football, despite some glitches at times as many have discussed, the current system works best (at least for now! ;)).

This is a great post, but IMHO if we are going to have a national championship with only 32 entries-then the teams allowed in should be the top 32. Of course, I guess we can never please everyone, yet I have a hard time with a conference getting an AQ whose champion can't beat the last place team in another conference. We can agree to disagree on this point as we seem to go round and round this issue on the boards every season.

I don't disagree with you new, I would love for the playoffs to be the best 32 teams.  For decent teams in good conferences I'm sure it's infuriating.   Unfortunately, the NCAA doesn't see it that way, and the membership of D3 submits to its "leadership."  Besides, my feeling is that most D3 presidents and boards think that the automatic qualifier gives the most students the best chance of post-season participation or are indifferent to how the NCAA handles it.  Unfortunately from a competition standpoint, everyone's access to the playoffs is a key component to the D3 post season concept.

The schools from the weaker conferences pay their dues to the NCAA, just like the schools from the stronger conferences. And the NCAA has always put its emphasis upon equal access to post-season competition. It's not just D3 that operates that way. Next month is March Madness, in which everyone and his grandmother will fill out a few dozen tourney brackets and pay close attention to how they're doing in the D1 basketball tournament. Do you really think that the teams that you see in the brackets whose names you don't recognize -- teams like Texas-San Antonio, Long Island, Morehead State, and Hampton -- are among the 65 best basketball teams in Division One? They're in March Madness because the NCAA, on the D1 level as well as the D2 and D3 levels, puts equal access to national tournaments above all other concerns.

It's a central point of emphasis, and it isn't going to change. So there's no sense at all in grousing about, say, the UMAC or the NAthC getting a team into the D3 football tourney when the CCIW or the OAC or the WIAC really deserves a shot at an extra at-large slot.
Greg --

Do not get me wrong.  I whole-heartedly agree with the NCAA's primary mission of allowing "equal access" for all 236+/- DIII football programs -- all of the young men playing football in these programs pay their dues every Saturday.  I think that this concept of "equal access" is one of the most appealing things for me and most of the other fans on this board.  We like the fact that DIII football has a exciting tournament and an "undisputed" champion every year.  Not one poster that I know feels as if UWW didn't deserve to be the national champion this year, for example.  I also think that this is one of the the things that appeals to EVERYONE about the DI basketball tournament.  I should note, however, that it is not always the AQ teams that make the DI basketball tournaments as good as they are.  As a matter of fact, in four out of the last ten years alone the eventual DI national champion wasn't even the AQ from their own conference!!  It is the at-large teams that usually make the most noise in the tournament.  With a shrinking pool of at-large Pool C teams going forward in the DIII football tournament, I feel that "equal access" is not necessarily being provided "fairly".  I can count probably eight-ten teams in the WIAC, OAC, and CCIW that did not win the AQs in those three conferences last year that could consistently win the AQs in either the NEFC or the MASCAC.  I wonder if the kids in those eight-ten WIAC, OAC, and CCIW schools would think that they have "equal access" to the DIII football tournament.  I know that we have gone around and around about strength of schedule, but what incentive is there for schools to play tough OOC schedules when:  1) they already play in "power conferences" and 2) one pre-season loss will jeopardize their shot at getting one of the dwindling number of Pool C slots?  We all love the big OCC games where UW Oshkosh plays against Mt. Union, Mary Hardin Baylor plays UW LaCrosse, and Redlands plays NCC.  Those games help us sort out the field early on in the season.  We do not have the same level of anticipation and excitement watching the Crusaders putting up 54 on Albion or the Cardinals putting up 86 on Olivet.  These games tell us very little in the end. 

I would suggest that we continue to strive for "equal access", but that that we have "fair and equal access".  One way to accomplish this would be to have conference champions pass a litmus test of sorts to see if they are truely an AQ.  Perhaps SOS or some other benchmark would ensure that weaker conferences that stay weak are not always guaranteed of a slot in the DIII tournament.  Meanwhile, more participants from stronger conferences would be provided with access to the big dance.  While there are clearly problems using the SOS measure alone, this could be a start.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 09:51:58 am by Stagg or Bust »

Offline formerd3db

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24811 on: February 19, 2012, 11:01:15 am »
Stagg or Bust:

I can understand where you are coming from; you make some legit points. However, I doubt highly that will ever happen, trying to come up with some SOS evaluation system never really works (then again, what "anything" really ever works ideally anyway?!! ;D).  IMO, I think the current system is the best and is just like the basketball tourneys as everyone has disussed in recent posts.  I know what you are saying about having the best teams and the more powerful conferences wanting to get other teams in.  However, as one other poster said, certainly one legit consideration is for a college that wants to get to that level to just "get better".  I also realize that that will never be possible for some of our DIII colleges for a variety of non-football related and logistic reasons.  But for many, if Mount Union can do it, anyone can.  But, all that said, it is just the way it is for now and, again, I personally think the incentive for winning one's conference and getting the AQ is appropriate.  I know that some people have presented the arguement that this isn't your "childhood, feel-good, having everyone get a certificate for participation" type of situation, but it really isn't and I'm not sure we can make that kind of comparison.  Also, in a tangential aspect, look at the NESCAC - they don't even have that chance of participating in the playoffs, however,...that is their choice (I won't go there because we've had that extensive converstation many times on the various boards ;D - also it has never made sense to me that the Ivy League does not allow its football teams to participate in the playoffs, yet allows all its other sports to do so - that is the biggest hypocritical situation IMO, perhaps more than the controversay over the a DI playoff).  And, speaking of the latter in relation to all this, IMO, the tentative proposed "idea" by the NCAA President in favor of a DI Playoff for only the top 4 rated teams is a stupid idea.  That will never work - well, it may in the sense of being a reality only if they ever impliment it, however, we will see more howling and controversy over that then you see now with the polling situation and the BCS.  I just keep going back to the same arguement that many people have been saying for a long time - at least for now, the best way of doing it is as is done in DIII, DII and FCS, although, as we've all been saying, there will always be some problems with that, but, so far it appears to be the best way in keeping those at a minimum.  Of course, as everyone here is saying, we'll always be debating this issue I'm sure! ;D  All that said, I do enjoy reading about everyone's opinions on this here.

Also, I, too, thank Pat for his clarification.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 11:03:12 am by formerd3db »
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Offline NCF

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24812 on: February 19, 2012, 11:10:33 am »
Stagg, Former- great post and points. The system need to be fixed, but I doubt any changes will happen soon. And I agree with you Former in liking to read everyone's opinons and ideas. That's what is great about the boards- all of us can respectfully express them here.
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Offline formerd3db

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24813 on: February 19, 2012, 02:51:15 pm »
Stagg, Former- great post and points. The system need to be fixed, but I doubt any changes will happen soon. And I agree with you Former in liking to read everyone's opinons and ideas. That's what is great about the boards- all of us can respectfully express them here.

Thanks newcard - same goes for yours.  Also, we only have Pat to thank for such opportunity.  If it were not for him founding this site (which is hard to believe that was some 12 years or so ago), we wouldn't have this format.  It is amazing how far this has come and grown in all these years.  And certainly, at least IMO, it is in no way a waste of time - all of this is relevant and an appropriate purpose for many reasons.  Besides, what else would be we all be doing with some of our free time? This keeps us all out of trouble and we could be doing many other "not so good" things and that would not be good! :o ::) ;D :D :)  I know my wife appreciates that - especially when I remind her of that when she on occasion just mentions to me that I've "seemingly" been spending a lot of time here on the boards! :)
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24814 on: February 19, 2012, 02:51:57 pm »
It just takes a simple majority to pass. Before this vote, most conference had automatic bids and only one or two in each region did not. Those who benefited from the status quo definitely held a majority.

Stagg or Bust: Division I basketball is in no way whatsoever a reasonable comparison to any Division III tournament.
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Offline formerd3db

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24815 on: February 19, 2012, 02:56:18 pm »
Pat:
Re: the DI basketball tournament.  I would say that it is only comparable to DIII tournaments in that it now provides a tremoudous amout of other schools the opportunity to get in the playoffs; aside from the fact that it is important to us in DIII because of the $ provided to fund our DIII championships and, thus, the less cost to the schools, many of whom would not be able to participate like it was in the very "old days" before what we have now. :)
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Offline matblake

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24816 on: February 19, 2012, 03:35:12 pm »
It just takes a simple majority to pass. Before this vote, most conference had automatic bids and only one or two in each region did not. Those who benefited from the status quo definitely held a majority.

Thanks, Pat.

Offline NCF

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24817 on: February 19, 2012, 03:58:19 pm »
Stagg, Former- great post and points. The system need to be fixed, but I doubt any changes will happen soon. And I agree with you Former in liking to read everyone's opinons and ideas. That's what is great about the boards- all of us can respectfully express them here.

Thanks newcard - same goes for yours.  Also, we only have Pat to thank for such opportunity.  If it were not for him founding this site (which is hard to believe that was some 12 years or so ago), we wouldn't have this format.  It is amazing how far this has come and grown in all these years.  And certainly, at least IMO, it is in no way a waste of time - all of this is relevant and an appropriate purpose for many reasons.  Besides, what else would be we all be doing with some of our free time? This keeps us all out of trouble and we could be doing many other "not so good" things and that would not be good! :o ::) ;D :D :)  I know my wife appreciates that - especially when I remind her of that when she on occasion just mentions to me that I've "seemingly" been spending a lot of time here on the boards! :)
  Oh this keeps me out of trouble and away from work ;D But it is fun and thanks Pat.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13...AND COUNTING!
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
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Offline NCF

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24818 on: February 22, 2012, 02:32:00 pm »
Anyone coming to the CCIW indoor track championships? Several football players also run for the Cards.
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CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
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Offline NCF

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24819 on: February 25, 2012, 11:29:52 am »
A huge shout out to the Wheaton football players who joined the Cardinals at FCA on Thursday. From what I understand it was an amazing night of fellowship amoung Christian brothers.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13...AND COUNTING!
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35 CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE 1971.
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: INDOOR TRACK-'89,'10,'11,'12/OUTDOOR TRACK: '89,'94,'98,'00,'10,'11
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Offline Mugsy

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24820 on: February 28, 2012, 10:13:37 pm »
A huge shout out to the Wheaton football players who joined the Cardinals at FCA on Thursday. From what I understand it was an amazing night of fellowship amoung Christian brothers.

Wow... that is awesome.
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Offline Mugsy

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24821 on: February 28, 2012, 10:18:56 pm »
Two coaching positions filled for Wheaton, including the vacancy at OLine coach.

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2012/2/28/FB_coaches.aspx
Wheaton Football: CCIW Champs: 1950, 1953-1959, 1995, 2000, 2002-2004, 2006, 2008 North Region Champs, 2012

Offline NCF

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24822 on: February 28, 2012, 10:26:43 pm »
A huge shout out to the Wheaton football players who joined the Cardinals at FCA on Thursday. From what I understand it was an amazing night of fellowship amoung Christian brothers.

Wow... that is awesome.
  You can say that again. It was something noone will forget. I am at a loss for words here-very emotional and uplifting.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13...AND COUNTING!
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35 CHAMPIONSHIPS SINCE 1971.
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: INDOOR TRACK-'89,'10,'11,'12/OUTDOOR TRACK: '89,'94,'98,'00,'10,'11
2013 OAC post season pick-em tri-champion

Offline matblake

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24823 on: February 29, 2012, 04:27:06 pm »
A huge shout out to the Wheaton football players who joined the Cardinals at FCA on Thursday. From what I understand it was an amazing night of fellowship amoung Christian brothers.

Wow... that is awesome.
  You can say that again. It was something noone will forget. I am at a loss for words here-very emotional and uplifting.

Awesome

Offline matblake

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Re: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #24824 on: February 29, 2012, 04:27:51 pm »
Two coaching positions filled for Wheaton, including the vacancy at OLine coach.

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2012/2/28/FB_coaches.aspx

Good to have those filled.