Author Topic: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin  (Read 3583903 times)

Offline emma17

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34755 on: September 21, 2017, 02:39:28 pm »
Taking time to get the investigation makes perfect sense. It's the amount of time it took in relation to the serious nature of the events that causes me to feel something changed along the way.

AndOne you commented on my belief that perhaps an agreement was reached between all parties last year. Your response was not directly related to my point though.
In order for charges to be brought, my understanding is the victim would have had to file a police report. Isn't it possible the victim, his family, the five players and the university all reached an agreement that would have included the victim agreeing not to file a report?

In my view, it seems far more likely that the reason for such a time lapse is because there was an agreement in place, which was later broken, thus resulting in a police report being filed "quite a while" after the event took place. The fact that 1 million people live in DuPage and thus there is too much work to be done seems less likely to be the reason this case wasn't moved along much sooner. 

According to one of the articles, on the night of the event, the victim "spoke with police officers later that night". I'm not sure what that means?

Emma,

No, it's not possible. Possibly for 2 reasons.
The certain reason - When the victim was taken to the hospital, a nurse or nurses became concerned over the bruising on his body and questioned him about it. Supposedly he broke down and, after initially being reluctant to do so, told the nurses that he had been beaten. They then called the police who immediately came to the hospital and began their investigation.
A 2nd possible reason - I believe it is the law that if a college becomes aware of any form of physical violence they are required to report it to authorities. If they don't the administrators/college can be charged with withholding information/hindering prosecution. They are not required to report incidents of simple hazing. However, the victim's injuries were not consistent with an incident of simple or playful hazing, and his subsequent remarks about being beaten cemented the fact that the college would then be legally prevented from not reporting the incident to the police. This possibility did not come into play because it had already been reported by the ER personnel.

With regard to the population and how it relates to work flow, like many businesses the States Atty's is often understaffed. Assistant States Attorneys often leave for more lucrative positions with private firms. Also, they may not have enough investigators who coordinate interviewing witnesses and fact/evidence gathering with the local police departments. This naturally often results in some form of delay. And don't forget that on this case they were looking at five people, not just one or two.

You raise a good point, but I don't see how it's "impossible" that an agreement was reached based on your "certain reason". In your "certain reason" explanation, you didn't say the victim actually filed a police report. Do you know for sure he filed a police report? Isn't it possible he gave details to the police but hesitated to file a formal complaint (if this is the correct wording)? What if the police said "hey, these are serious charges you're making that could result in prison time for those guys", causing the victim to take time to think of other options?
Couldn't one of those options have been a financial settlement? 


Offline augie77

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34756 on: September 21, 2017, 02:49:58 pm »
Ah, the root beer kegger....This is an annual event going back many years.  The fifth floor of Traber Dormitory (T-5) annually hosts this mega event, that draws students from all over campus.  In addition to root beer, there is a splash pad, nerf ball tournaments, and entertainment of many kinds.  Basically each dorm room on the floor is transformed into a separate entertainment venue.  I believe they even issue tickets, carnival style, to partake in the events.  My son was on T-5 his freshman year (2011), so I'm well aware what a production this is.

That said, one can figure that most everyone was on 5th floor, and only a hand full of holdouts (including the victim, apparently) would be in their rooms, or even in the lobby.  This may explain why there seemingly were few witnesses to the alleged incident.  It also makes sense that the football players knowingly chose this time to perpetrate their prank turned criminal charge, assuring few witnesses.  Unless he was part of T-5??  The atmosphere could easily have obscured such a thing, as in "the night's craziness continues...."

Offline AndOne

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34757 on: September 21, 2017, 03:15:34 pm »
Emma,

I believe there are certain crimes that once reported have to be pursued. If there were no injuries at all or no serious injuries, he probably could have told the police to forget it. I'm not sure if the police, after seeing the degree of injuries could just let it be dropped. Another thing to remember about this case is that the charged offenses are felonies as opposed to misdemeanors. It would not be surprising if misdemeanors could be dropped at the victim's discretion, but that felonies have to be investigated and prosecuted.
But let's say it could be ended at that point and was. The College would then still have been required to report it to police. It's a state law that if a college becomes aware of any violent injuries sustained by a student, that they have to report it. They have/would have had no choice. 
I hope that gives you closure with regard to your question.  :)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 04:37:50 pm by AndOne »
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34758 on: September 21, 2017, 05:01:16 pm »
Emma,

I believe there are certain crimes that once reported have to be pursued. If there were no injuries at all or no serious injuries, he probably could have told the police to forget it. I'm not sure if the police, after seeing the degree of injuries could just let it be dropped. Another thing to remember about this case is that the charged offenses are felonies as opposed to misdemeanors. It would not be surprising if misdemeanors could be dropped at the victim's discretion, but that felonies have to be investigated and prosecuted.
But let's say it could be ended at that point and was. The College would then still have been required to report it to police. It's a state law that if a college becomes aware of any violent injuries sustained by a student, that they have to report it. They have/would have had no choice. 
I hope that gives you closure with regard to your question.  :)

That last part is actually a bit of a tricky question. Hazing is NOT required to be reported under federal laws to report crimes. There is actually a bill being considered in the US Senate, I believe, that would change that and require hazing to be reported. However, it is not part of the report colleges have to put together as of right now. Yes, assault has to be reported because ... well ... it is assault. So, here is the question: would classifying this as hazing allow the college (any college) to avoid reporting it? Then to follow up: now that police have charged individuals with assault, does that mean the college must now report it?

Basically what I am trying to get at... I am not convinced since this was clearly handled as a hazing incident (per the fact police still used the term hazing) that it would have been part of the college's federal crime report. I am also unsure how to determine that (I am sure someone like Sager or others knows where those are possibly found).
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34759 on: September 21, 2017, 05:05:25 pm »
I think something to consider per the Duke case, the fact they didn't let the investigation have its time to move forward was ultimately its undoing.

No, that case's undoing was the fact that the alleged victim made a totally false allegation and, thus, there never should've been a case in the first place. Nifong could've waited sixteen months, or sixteen years, before he filed charges and it wouldn't have made Crystal Mangum any less of a liar.

That is actually my point. If the investigation had continued even not under the spotlight, I suspect that fact would have still been discovered by investigators. But the rush to do something, be ahead of the story by the DA, and to look good in the "community" ended up taking a much different road. I agree it shouldn't have been a case. If investigators had the chance to review the case without a rush to show something or to announce charges before everything was vetted, I think the outcome would have been the same without the same fanfare.

OK. That didn't really seem clear the way that you worded it the first time.

BTW, I have a bone to pick with something that you wrote in your "Daily Dose" d3football.com blog post:

Quote
Would they even consider doing this to a student that has nothing to do with the team? The answer to that last question I am sure would be no, so how does the moral or ethical line get crossed so easily.

You may think you're sure of that, but you're wrong. My freshman year at North Park, two football linemen did something similar to what happened at Wheaton -- they walked into a student's dorm room, tied his arms and legs using belts, carried him out of the dorm in front of a lot of other students who didn't intervene, and then dumped him in a puddle elsewhere on campus. The victim was not a football player, and had no connection whatsoever to the football team.

(The dean of students had the two football players expelled the next day.)
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34760 on: September 21, 2017, 05:33:29 pm »
Emma,

I believe there are certain crimes that once reported have to be pursued. If there were no injuries at all or no serious injuries, he probably could have told the police to forget it. I'm not sure if the police, after seeing the degree of injuries could just let it be dropped. Another thing to remember about this case is that the charged offenses are felonies as opposed to misdemeanors. It would not be surprising if misdemeanors could be dropped at the victim's discretion, but that felonies have to be investigated and prosecuted.
But let's say it could be ended at that point and was. The College would then still have been required to report it to police. It's a state law that if a college becomes aware of any violent injuries sustained by a student, that they have to report it. They have/would have had no choice. 
I hope that gives you closure with regard to your question.  :)

That last part is actually a bit of a tricky question. Hazing is NOT required to be reported under federal laws to report crimes.

That's not germane to Mark's point, though. His point wasn't that Wheaton would be required to report a hazing incident to the police; his point was that Wheaton would be forced to report violent injuries sustained by a student (presumably at the hands of another student or students, or a school employee, or by someone else while on school property) to the police.

There is actually a bill being considered in the US Senate, I believe, that would change that and require hazing to be reported. However, it is not part of the report colleges have to put together as of right now. Yes, assault has to be reported because ... well ... it is assault. So, here is the question: would classifying this as hazing allow the college (any college) to avoid reporting it?

No. Again, this is isn't akin to the story Smeds told yesterday about being forced to walk back from a creek naked during a fraternity pledge at Wabash. This is about violent injuries sustained by a student at the hands of other students. And what happened to the alleged victim need not have had anything to do with hazing. If the five football players had simply jumped the alleged victim and beaten him up without the elaborations involved in the hazing (the hog-tying and hooding, the car ride, the music and the preposterous Muslim nonsense, etc.), damaging his two shoulders in the process, it would've been the same thing as far as Illinois state law is concerned regarding Wheaton's responsibility to report it to the police.

Then to follow up: now that police have charged individuals with assault, does that mean the college must now report it?

That's actually a valid question, although it seems to have a close-the-barn-door-after-the-horse-escaped vibe to it if indeed Wheaton hasn't reported it already.

Basically what I am trying to get at... I am not convinced since this was clearly handled as a hazing incident (per the fact police still used the term hazing) that it would have been part of the college's federal crime report. I am also unsure how to determine that (I am sure someone like Sager or others knows where those are possibly found).

I don't get the impression that the WPD handled this as a hazing incident at all. I think that the WPD handled it as an assault incident. Whether the WPD used the term "hazing" or not is immaterial, because hazing is not a state-law issue as far as I know. If there was an anti-hazing law in Illinois, I'm sure that SA Berlin would've added it to the charges against Pettway, Kregel, Spielman, Cooksey, and TeBos. I'm sure that the WPD deputy chief simply used hazing as a description of the cause of the offense, not as the offense itself.

As for the federal crime report database for colleges and universities, I don't know where that's located. But we seem to have a lot of legal eagles posting here at the moment who might be able to point us in the right direction. ;)
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Offline AndOne

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34761 on: September 21, 2017, 09:28:29 pm »
Seek and ye shall find.........
US Dept. of Education Report on Campus Safety and Security for 2013, 2014, and 2015. 2015 is the last year for which stats are currently available.
WHEATON COLLEGE

Criminal Offenses - On campus

Criminal Offense   2013   2014   2015
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
b. Negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible   2      
d. Rape      1   2
e. Fondling      2   2
f. Sex offenses - Non-forcible   0      
g. Incest      0   0
h. Statutory rape      0   0
i. Robbery   0   0   0
j. Aggravated assault   0   0   0
k. Burglary   2   2   1
l. Motor vehicle theft   1   0   0
m. Arson   0   0   0
Criminal Offenses - On-Campus Student Housing Facilities

Criminal Offense   2013   2014   2015
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
b. Negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible   2      
d. Rape      1   1
e. Fondling      1   1
f. Sex offenses - Non-forcible   0      
g. Incest      0   0
h. Statutory rape      0   0
i. Robbery   0   0   0
j. Aggravated assault   0   0   0
k. Burglary   0   0   0
l. Motor vehicle theft   0   0   0
m. Arson   0   0   0
Criminal Offenses - Noncampus

Criminal Offense   2013   2014   2015
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
b. Negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible   0      
d. Rape      0   0
e. Fondling      0   0
f. Sex offenses - Non-Forcible   0      
g. Incest      0   0
h. Statutory rape      0   0
i. Robbery   0   0   0
j. Aggravated assault   0   0   0
k. Burglary   0   1   0
l. Motor vehicle theft   0   0   0
m. Arson   0   0   0
Criminal Offenses - Public Property

Criminal Offense   2013   2014   2015
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
b. Negligent manslaughter   0   0   0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible   0      
d. Rape      0   0
e. Fondling      0   0
f. Sex offenses - Non-forcible   0      
g. Incest      0   0
h. Statutory rape      0   0
i. Robbery   0   0   0
j. Aggravated assault   0   0   0
k. Burglary   0   0   0
l. Motor vehicle theft   0   0   0
m. Arson   0   0   0

I'm not sure these numbers mean much of anything. As a result of Greg Sager's asking, I was just interested to see if there were such numbers and upon finding them figured I would just post them to answer Greg's inquiry.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 11:49:56 pm by AndOne »
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Offline izzy stradlin

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34762 on: September 21, 2017, 10:42:13 pm »
Two deep for Wheaton against Elmhurst:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/elmhurstbluejays.com/documents/2017/9/21/17fbgamenotes.pdf

Kyler Kregel is replaced at center by So. Jake Hibben.   

So. Drew Smith is at right tackle where he already had been starting as of last week.  Ben Pettway had started there the majority of the last 3 years however he had issues with injuries.

Dallas McRae will take over for Noah Spielman at DT alongside Pat O'Connell.       

 

Offline iwumichigander

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34763 on: September 22, 2017, 12:36:39 am »
I am with Q - the touchdown should have counted.  I would tell which touchdown and which player but my brain is tired from slugging through the other subject posts.

Offline ncc_fan

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34764 on: September 22, 2017, 12:57:46 am »
I am with Q - the touchdown should have counted.  I would tell which touchdown and which player but my brain is tired from slugging through the other subject posts.

And the refs blew the offsides call on the NCC guy who blocked Augie's field goal attempt in the waning seconds of the 2005 de facto CCIW championship game.   ::)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 08:42:09 am by ncc_fan »

Offline emma17

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34765 on: September 22, 2017, 02:58:24 am »
Emma,

I believe there are certain crimes that once reported have to be pursued. If there were no injuries at all or no serious injuries, he probably could have told the police to forget it. I'm not sure if the police, after seeing the degree of injuries could just let it be dropped. Another thing to remember about this case is that the charged offenses are felonies as opposed to misdemeanors. It would not be surprising if misdemeanors could be dropped at the victim's discretion, but that felonies have to be investigated and prosecuted.
But let's say it could be ended at that point and was. The College would then still have been required to report it to police. It's a state law that if a college becomes aware of any violent injuries sustained by a student, that they have to report it. They have/would have had no choice. 
I hope that gives you closure with regard to your question.  :)

So hold on. You're earlier post stated a "certain reason" with a #2 reason as a sort of backup. Are you now saying your "certain reason" is no longer certain and now relying on your #2 backup reason to support your point?
Regardless of which certainty you feel applies, I'll ask the same question. If there wasn't a formal complaint by the victim, can the DA press forward with criminal charges?
Even if Wheaton College was required to report the event to the police- and did, is that enough for the DA to press forward if the victim himself wasn't going to participate/cooperate with criminal charges?
I ask this because I wonder if the victim and family didn't enter into an agreement with Wheaton College last year for this matter to be put to bed, only to now have a change of heart for some reason.

Offline Kovo

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34766 on: September 22, 2017, 07:01:35 am »
I am with Q - the touchdown should have counted.  I would tell which touchdown and which player but my brain is tired from slugging through the other subject posts.

And the refs blew the offsides call on the NCC guy who blocked Augie's field goal attempt in the waning seconds of the 2005 de facto CCIW championship game.

Admittedly, I wasn't there and couldn't watch the game but my understanding is that is was the single worst officiated game in the history of the CCIW.  Forever known as the "Swindle at Lindberg". 

And look what has happened to Augie since that game--------

Online wally_wabash

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34767 on: September 22, 2017, 09:04:18 am »
I ask this because I wonder if the victim and family didn't enter into an agreement with Wheaton College last year for this matter to be put to bed, only to now have a change of heart for some reason.

I don't get why you think that this hypothetical agreement happened so matter-of-factly.  Wheaton entering into some kind of backroom handshake deal to keep the whole thing quiet makes all of it infinitely worse, doesn't it?  Why would they (Wheaton) want to do that?  There is no upside to that play. 
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34768 on: September 22, 2017, 10:47:10 am »
Saturday's games
Wheaton @ Elmhurst, 1 pm
North Central @ Millikin, 1 pm
Carroll @ UW-LaCrosse, 3 pm
Carthage @ Augustana, 6 pm
North Park @ Illinois Wesleyan, 6 pm

Massey sez:
Wheaton 35, Elmhurst 7 (WC 97%, EC 3%)
North Central 42, Millikin 14 (NCC 97%, MU 3%)
UW-LaCrosse 41, Carroll 17 (UWL 94%, CU 6%)
Carthage 28, Augustana 14 (CC 85%, AC 15%)
Illinois Wesleyan 33, North Park 7 (IWU 96%, NPU 4%)

Ken's computer doesn't think it's going to be a very interesting Saturday of football.
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Offline emma17

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Re: FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #34769 on: September 22, 2017, 10:48:24 am »
I ask this because I wonder if the victim and family didn't enter into an agreement with Wheaton College last year for this matter to be put to bed, only to now have a change of heart for some reason.

I don't get why you think that this hypothetical agreement happened so matter-of-factly.  Wheaton entering into some kind of backroom handshake deal to keep the whole thing quiet makes all of it infinitely worse, doesn't it?  Why would they (Wheaton) want to do that?  There is no upside to that play.

I'm not sure if this is a serious question but I'll answer.
1. The reason I think there is a good chance an agreement of some sort was reached last year is because the length of time that has passed beteeen the event and the charges being brought. I feel it's a more likely explanation than the idea that DuPage was just too busy to devote full resources immediately.
2. Companies and individuals all across this planet, probably since man first walked it, have looked for a cooperative resolution of matters (i.e. agreement) to avoid court involvement (several on this board can quote the scripture that applies). What you refer to in a negative way as a "backroom handshake deal" is actually how the overwhelming majority of disputes are handled. I realize this applies more often to civil cases, but rest assured agreements are made all of the time that involve assurances of privacy about events that one party or the other want to keep out of the public.