Top 25 talk

[Lurker]

"To finish not only behind them, but 4th, says that they were the worst team in the Final Four..."

Uh, I don't see York ranked in the Top 3.

I refuse to believe that a neutral court game that is decided in the final minute should be the only factor used in evaluating two teams.  If the neutral court is decisive, yes, but the game played between Rochester and Calvin in Salem was not enough to wipe out the whole season.  Calvin has 2 wins over Albion, 1 over Wheaton, and 1 over Aurora.  What other Rochester wins match those?

[Pat Coleman]

Yes, Johnny, most voters look at the entire 30-some games when making a decision, not just one game.

[Old School]

J.C.M.,

The four teams that make it to Salem aren't automatically ranked #1-#4, nor are they assumed to be the best four teams in the nation.  I mean, all because Point started out the year #1 and then went into the NCAA tourney #1 and then won the National Championship by the largest margin in NCAA history (D3), doesn't mean they are the best team in the nation, oh wait a minute.  

(Message edited by shorty on March 23, 2005)

[sac]

Sager--I really didn't take the SCIAC into consideration when makeing my comment it was more a "reverse psychology" ploy.   Given the heavy load of Midwest teams in the poll I figured someone would be throwing that argument out soon.

Its interesting but an uncle of mine lives in the Bay Area and always refers to his trips to Michigan and Ohio as going to "The East Coast" and he's originally from Michigan, clearly he's been Californized.

I agree almost 100% with Calvin's ranking, look at that schedule as a whole.  I don't think anyone in D3 played one as tough even IWU.



JCM---watch the D1 tournament and final poll I can garuntee you the Final Four teams will not be ranked 1 thru 4, nor will "The Four" best teams in D1 be in St. Louis.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Sac,

Though there is a MUCH better chance of it, since they don't worry so much about travel costs in d1 - the regions are much more closely balanced than in d3.

Barring a TRUE Cinderella, it is doubtful that you will see any of the d1 Final Four teams finish 13th!  (A ranking which I think was probably STILL too high for York, considering who they beat to get there, and how badly they lost once they did.)

[Johnny C. Monebonne]

My last point on this topic - because frankly, I went to a rival school of UR and can't believe I am arguing on their behalf.  I am not arguing that the four teams that make the Final Four finish 1-4.  But the logic being used by both the Calvin supporters and even by Pat don't mesh well.  I 100% agree that if UW-SP came out of a strong region and beat teams that would have better represented in the Final Four, then they should be ranked higher.  But - and follow along closely here - UR BEAT CALVIN IN THE FINAL FOUR!  SAC - I guarentee you that the final poll in DI would show a team that beat another in the Final Four ahead of them in the final ranking.  A body of work over 30 games ...well, correct me if I am wrong, but after a slow start without their starting PG, UR won like something like 18 of their last 19 games ... and last I checked, the UAA is a pretty good conference.  Come on people, they lost only 5 games all year including the title game.  I think it has more to do with people on the panel being embarrassed they had a four loss UR team ranked 21st going into the final poll than anything.  Like I previously said, the official poll anyways is the NCAA ... and UR is the national runner-up and Calvin the 3rd place team ... I am sure UR cares more about this than the final D3hoops poll ...

[David Collinge]

Johnny, for what it's worth, I was an impartial observer at the Calvin/Rochester semifinal, and I'm still surprised that Rochester won.  In my mind Calvin was clearly the better team, and I think it took guts for the voters to acknowledge this in the final poll.  When one team beats another, it is good evidence that they are the better team, but it is not conclusive evidence.  As John Rusnak posted on another board, is Bucknell a better team than Kansas?

[Old School]

I'm confident that the NCAA doesn't have a poll, unless you are talking about the NCAA tourney being the official "poll."

Prior to the tourney starting, Calvin was 14th with 294 points.  Rochester was 21st with 103 points.  Calvin went on to beat #11 Wheaton (we are using the current rankings at the time) on the road, #20 Aurora on the road, unranked Mississippi College on a neutral court, and then beat #9 Albion on the road, in the Sectional finals before losing to Rochester in Salem.  Rochester beat unranked Union at home, #2 Amherst on the road, and then #22 Potsdam State on a neutral court before taking care of Calvin and losing to Point.

As a result, Rochester gained 5 spots and 157 points on Calvin.  Not bad.  I remember during the season when Wittenberg lost at home to Wooster in 3 OTs, who was ranking just a bit higher.  I thought for sure Wittenberg would drop (simply because it was a loss, a similar Rochester argument that Rochester BEAT Calvin, so they should be better). Anyway, Wittenberg actually gained a spot after a loss AT home!  So it goes.

Other Notes:
Interesting to see Trinity jump 7 spots.  They had to have been favored the first two games, and then beat a lower ranked team (Hanover) on a neutral court, before losing a close one to Point.

Surprised that Salem St. dropped out after going 1-1 in the tourney, including a 1-point loss AT #22 Potsdam St.  

More surprised that Oshkosh moved into the Top 25 without even playing a game, gaining 34 points. And, Platteville moved up without playing as well.  Wartburg dropped 5 spots without a game.

Apparently no one was impressed with St. John Fisher.  They dropped 14 spots after suffering their FIRST loss on a neutral court to Potsdam St.

Interesting to note that the top six in the women's poll stayed in the top six, though the order was obviously different.  According to the poll prior to the tourney, #1 Scranton, #4 Southern Maine, #5 Randolph-Macon and #6 Millikin made the Final Four.  #2 Bowdoin lost to Scranton in the Sectional Final and #3 Bates lost in the sectional semis to Southern Maine.  Can you say CHALK?  How boring!

[Old School]

... and last I checked, the UAA is a pretty good conference.

Not this year.

Plus, I'm not sure if I can forgive anyone who loses to Superior AT HOME.  Superior started the conference season with 9 losses, won three conference road games, all to teams with losing conference home records.

[BedtimeForBonzo]

quote:

Interesting to see Trinity jump 7 spots. They had to have been favored the first two games, and then beat a lower ranked team (Hanover) on a neutral court, before losing a close one to Point.

Agreed, but Trinity was the only team Point was in danger of losing to during their championship run.  Does Point they win if they're playing somewhere else?  Well, probably yes, but the performance in front of 2500 rabid Pointer fans was impressive.  TU's utter lack of success in previous playoff runs (0-3 this century) may have actually worked to the Tigers' favor in some strange way.    

I have to admit I was surprised to see them end up at #3.  And pleased.

[Pat Coleman]

Have you forgiven Stevens Point for losing to Superior at home in 2004, OS? Now, granted, that Superior team was all of 6-10 in conference, while this year's was a lowly 5-11!

[Lurker]

I think the voters struggled with what to do with Trinity all season long.  I followed them since they were an IWU opponent.

Trinity lost to a D1 and some D2's early and it seems like the voters were not sure how to evaluate those games.  After they beat Illinois Wesleyan in Texas over the holidays they started to get a lot of respect in the poll.  Then, they lost 2 bad games in a row I think, which dropped them back down.  Trinity finished the season on a good run and won the early round playoff games vs Dallas and Pomona-P.  I think when they beat a very good Hanover team (a team that had just won at Illinois Wesleyan) at the sectional and then played Stevens Point to the final minute the voters finally realized how good Trinity was.  Their final jump of 7 spots was a correction of sorts I think.  

I was part of the group that traveled down to Georgetown, Texas with IWU and saw Trinity play.  IWU played a lot of great teams this year, but overall I thought Trinity was the best IWU opponent, followed closely by Hanover, then Wheaton.  That is why I sure didn't like the bracket when it came out realizing that for IWU to get to Salem, the Titans would have to go through Hanover (#7), Trinity (#3), and Stevens Point (#1).

[Johnny C. Monebonne]

Look, from my vantage point, you can take every team in UW-SP bracket and put them ahead of UR - if the wise people who run this poll feel that bracket was just absolutely stacked.  I just think it makes the poll quite questionable and really a slap to UR that they are behind a team they beat in the tournament.  I don't care who Calvin beat during the year - it is who they lost to when it mattered most.  For Pat to say that they look at all season versus one game is irresponsible - it is the final poll and the tournament games should be weighted accordingly.  How else do you justify dropping Fisher down based on one game then - the two contradict themselves.  And that one game is not just any game - it is win or go home.  

So all of you Calvin supporters who think they were better than UR - I have news for you ... YOU WERE NOT WHEN IT MATTERED MOST.  Take your wins against Wheaton, Aurora and all those powers that you beat on your way to the Final Four ... they obviously did not prepare you enough to beat UR in the money contest.  UR will raise their national runner-up banner at the Palestra ... and you can hang your #2 ranked D3Hoops.com banner at your gym ... knock yourselves out!

For somebody to use the Bucknell/Kansas analogy is pompous and arrogant - this was not a one game upset special.  Christ, they went on the road and beat the #2 team in the country.  UR is the national runner-up ... this poll loses a lot of credibility by not recognizing that fact and for its moderator coming in here and defending it makes it look that much worse.

[sac]

I thought you were done with this subject.

[Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker]

Settle down Francis.  Rookies sheesh