Top 25 talk

[John Gleich]

Speaking of All-Americans, #13 North Park rode its two preseason All-Americans to victory tonight over a lightly-regarded but stubborn Manchester team, 93-84. Jordan Robinson had a 32 and 11 double-double and may find himself ranked #1 in the nation in three-point shooting when the next NCAA statistical rankings come out (he was trailing only UWW's Zach Knoblauch, and I'm pretty sure that Robinson's outshot Knoblauch from downtown since that last ranking), and the other Vikings star, Juwan Henry, had 23 points and seven assists.

Robinson is at .608, Keith Richardson is .595, Knoblauch is .590. I don't know when the next rankings come out but would imagine Robinson is leading for now.

Whitewater is shooting better than 48% from 3 as a team!

I don't want to take anything away from what Whitewater has done this year, including in their shooting and 11-0 start, they've only played one away game (and two neutral site games). And they also haven't played a really hard schedule.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the WIAC schedule begins (and when they are truly defended hard for the first time).

Whitewater is averaging 90 per game. Everybody else in the WIAC but Stout is holding teams under 70. Something's gotta give, and I think it will be WW's offense.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Speaking of All-Americans, #13 North Park rode its two preseason All-Americans to victory tonight over a lightly-regarded but stubborn Manchester team, 93-84. Jordan Robinson had a 32 and 11 double-double and may find himself ranked #1 in the nation in three-point shooting when the next NCAA statistical rankings come out (he was trailing only UWW's Zach Knoblauch, and I'm pretty sure that Robinson's outshot Knoblauch from downtown since that last ranking), and the other Vikings star, Juwan Henry, had 23 points and seven assists.

Robinson is at .608, Keith Richardson is .595, Knoblauch is .590. I don't know when the next rankings come out but would imagine Robinson is leading for now.

Whitewater is shooting better than 48% from 3 as a team!

I don't want to take anything away from what Whitewater has done this year, including in their shooting and 11-0 start, they've only played one away game (and two neutral site games). And they also haven't played a really hard schedule.

No one seems to mind when Babson does it. And they don't have a top conference like WW and WIAC.

It's highly unlikely that Whitewater will do as well against the toughest league ine D3 than against non-con. But it's weird how this is a mark against them but not against new england teams.

[nescac1]

If only New England teams would play some quality teams from the Midwest, I guess we'd see how overrated they are ... right??

[Gregory Sager]

Other people may have made that argument, but not me. I've seen plenty of Babson online over the past two seasons, so I knew when I walked into Ratner this afternoon that I would see a team that would give the Maroons all that they could handle. And that was certainly the case.

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of All-Americans, #13 North Park rode its two preseason All-Americans to victory tonight over a lightly-regarded but stubborn Manchester team, 93-84. Jordan Robinson had a 32 and 11 double-double and may find himself ranked #1 in the nation in three-point shooting when the next NCAA statistical rankings come out (he was trailing only UWW's Zach Knoblauch, and I'm pretty sure that Robinson's outshot Knoblauch from downtown since that last ranking), and the other Vikings star, Juwan Henry, had 23 points and seven assists.

Robinson is at .608, Keith Richardson is .595, Knoblauch is .590. I don't know when the next rankings come out but would imagine Robinson is leading for now.

Whitewater is shooting better than 48% from 3 as a team!

I don't want to take anything away from what Whitewater has done this year, including in their shooting and 11-0 start, they've only played one away game (and two neutral site games). And they also haven't played a really hard schedule.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the WIAC schedule begins (and when they are truly defended hard for the first time).

Whitewater is averaging 90 per game. Everybody else in the WIAC but Stout is holding teams under 70. Something's gotta give, and I think it will be WW's offense.

I take it, then, that you do not find ShineTime's ideas intriguing, and you do not wish to subscribe to his newsletter.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

If only New England teams would play some quality teams from the Midwest, I guess we'd see how overrated they are ... right??

You mean the team that hasn't won a tournament game since 2001? Is that your definition of quality where defending Babson's schedule is concerned, but yet it's open season on Whitewater?

IWU beat Chicago by more than Babson did and led at halftime.

[Gregory Sager]

Don't get caught up in the comparative scores game. Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Don't get caught up in the comparative scores game. Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

So one game result matters when it's Babson but not IWU.

The hypocrisy surrounding this school just grows and seemingly knows no bounds.

Why is everyone so hot on Babson that they're willing to throw logic and argumentative integrity out the window? Does anyone other than someone on a propaganda mission really think that Chicago is the measuring stick for Midwestern programs?

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)

There's only one men's game scheduled for tomorrow, but it's between two teams on this list. However, I'll go ahead and post the very-nearly-complete report now, and edit the report tomorrow to add in that final result.

EDIT: I moved the whole report (with the final result added) HERE

[Gregory Sager]

Don't get caught up in the comparative scores game. Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

So one game result matters when it's Babson but not IWU.

The hypocrisy surrounding this school just grows and seemingly knows no bounds.

Why is everyone so hot on Babson that they're willing to throw logic and argumentative integrity out the window? Does anyone other than someone on a propaganda mission really think that Chicago is the measuring stick for Midwestern programs?

I've seen Illinois Wesleyan multiple times. I've seen Babson multiple times, and today I saw the Beavers in person.

Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

It's not that complicated, Spence. It isn't a conspiracy, willful blindness, groupthink, or any other excuse. And I am not using Chicago as a measuring stick. In fact, I'm the one who just pointed out that Chicago shouldn't be a measuring stick when I warned against putting too much stock in comparative scores.

You're the Massey cheerleader who thinks that the D3 men's basketball championships committee should be using the Massey Ratings for its Selection Monday determinations. Well, as of this moment, Babson is #8 and Illinois Wesleyan is #16, according to Massey. And that's without taking today's Babson win at Ratner into consideration.

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of All-Americans, #13 North Park rode its two preseason All-Americans to victory tonight over a lightly-regarded but stubborn Manchester team, 93-84. Jordan Robinson had a 32 and 11 double-double and may find himself ranked #1 in the nation in three-point shooting when the next NCAA statistical rankings come out (he was trailing only UWW's Zach Knoblauch, and I'm pretty sure that Robinson's outshot Knoblauch from downtown since that last ranking), and the other Vikings star, Juwan Henry, had 23 points and seven assists.

Robinson is at .608, Keith Richardson is .595, Knoblauch is .590. I don't know when the next rankings come out but would imagine Robinson is leading for now.

Whitewater is shooting better than 48% from 3 as a team!

That's good research.  Thanks!  +k

Not that I'm interested in stirring up trouble between the two of you again, but Spence's info -- or at least the implication behind it -- is a little off. Yes, Keith Richardson of Marietta is shooting .595 from beyond the arc, but he does not qualify for the NCAA statistical ranking in that category. The NCAA's ranking for three-point FG% requires a minimum of 2.5 successful treys per game, and Richardson only averages 2 made treys per game. He's made 22 in Marietta's eleven games to date. He didn't qualify for last week's ranking, and he won't qualify for this coming week's, either.

[nescac1]

I was speaking generally about the collective impressive showing for some of New England's best against a slew of strong Midwest teams: Chicago, Mount Union, Hope, IWU, Marietta.  You want to talk comparative scores?  Babson beat Endicott, who is a very good team you've unfairly derided as a tomato can, by double digits.  Endicott beat Midd, who beat IWU.  Babson has played a VERY tough schedule -- Amherst, Bowdoin, Bates, Tufts, Endicott, Chicago.  I'll put those six games against nearly any group of six out of conference opponents in the country.  Not a tomato can among them.  How many of those teams have you ever seen play, by the way??  If you've never even watched them once you aren't really qualified to deride the level of play. Just because you don't follow New England teams closely doesn't mean those teams aren't talented. 

Since you swear by Massey, New England is now kicking butt in the Massey top 12 too, and trust me, Amherst is way underrated right now.

I never derided Whitewater and I wouldn't.  But how many times do Northeast teams need to beat top 25 Midwest teams for you to change your totally uninformed, inflexible opinion?

[nescac1]

And by the way given the results so far and ridiculous collection of talent on the roster (four JC / higher division transfers) I'd say Whitewater is the odds on favorite to win the title.  Babson is surely in the top 3-4 in those odds.  But that's a different discussion altogether. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

How many of those teams have you ever seen play, by the way??  If you've never even watched them once you aren't really qualified to deride the level of play.

I'll amend this.  If you haven't seen teams play, you should admit as much with each mention of them and seriously tone down the volume of posts.

[Titan Q]

I have watched a lot of games across a lot of regions so far this season.  The team I follow has played a number of strong teams (Ohio Wesleyan, North Central, North Park, Wash U, Chicago, Middlebury) and I've also been able to catch several other games of interest - like the Chicago/Babson game yesterday. My biggest takeaway on 2016-17 so far is that there is tremendous parity in Division III men's basketball.  A few thoughts within that...

I am confident there is a group of 4-5 teams that are the favorites to win the national championship, but it's not really even obvious to me who those teams are yet.  Early indications, to me, are that group includes Babson, Whitman, Amherst, and UW-Whitewater.  It's possible there is another team or two that belongs in that group...it's also possible that not all of those teams I listed belong in that elite tier.  Having watched Babson yesterday against Chicago, I like the Beavers as the best team I've seen.  I like that they have a 1st Team All-American to give the ball to when times get tough, I like the other impressive talent around Flannery, and I like the way they go about their business on the floor.

Starting immediately after that "elite tier" I mentioned above, I see a huge pack of extremely even teams that spans from about 5 down to 25. For example, here are teams I have watched that I really can't find any significant separation between (going down the current Top 25) - #4-Marietta, #7-St. Norbert, #11-UW-Eau Claire, #12-Benedictine, #13-North Park, #15 Hope, #17 Wesleyan, #18 Illinois Wesleyan, #20 North Central, #25 Wash U, Middlebury (not ranked), Augustana (not ranked), UW-Stevens Point (not ranked).  If any of these two teams played each other on a neutral court, I'd have to call it a "pick 'em."  I'm guessing most of those other Top 25 teams and candiates I have not seen belong in this pack too.

And finally, while I do see separation between that small top tier and the big second tier, I don't think that separation is very big.  For example, Greg mentioned #1-Babson vs #18-Illinois Wesleyan.  I agree that Babson is better overall than Illinois Wesleyan and certainly should be ranked higher, but if those two teams played on a neutral court I believe that would be an incredibly close and competitive game that IWU could absolutely win. The combination of 6-8 Trevor Seibring and IWU's great outside attack would give Babson a lot of problems. (In the same way IWU played a barn-burner at North Central on 12/3 when North Central had Connor Raridon.) Or replace IWU in my point above with Middlebury or Wash U or North Park or Marietta, etc.  There might be 3-4 points of difference, in terms of a point spread, between the top 4-5 teams and that second tier. Those games could end up going either way.

Trying to sort out the Top 25 is always fun but when there is this much parity, I doubt there will be many concrete answers until things get settled in the tournament.  The tournament, by the way, should be awesome.  It's probably a year where any of the 21 Pool C teams could legitimately make a Final Four run.