Author Topic: Top 25 talk  (Read 1282133 times)

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11760 on: March 14, 2018, 02:47:34 pm »
In all the years of the poll, we've only had one person inquire about actually voting for someone other than the champion No. 1 and I told that person I would really appreciate it if they voted for the champ.

I could see that being different this year but I expect to be casting a ballot and I'll cast it for the team that wins Saturday.

Wow. Pat strong arming voters. Did you make them an offer they couldn't refuse? Did you send your "friends" from Chicago to pay a visit? Did they wake up with a horse's head in their bed?  ??? 8-) :o ::) :P ;D ;)
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11761 on: March 14, 2018, 02:54:06 pm »
I had my goons handle it. Come on now. :)
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11762 on: March 14, 2018, 02:56:56 pm »
We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!


Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11763 on: March 14, 2018, 03:37:26 pm »
I had my goons handle it. Come on now. :)

LOL!

We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11764 on: March 14, 2018, 03:41:39 pm »
We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!

The 2010 IWU team was voted #1, but it is the only non-unanimous #1 national champion I can ever recall.  I bleed green, but even I admitted on the tourney boards at the time that I doubted they were #1 if the whole year is taken into account (but added that they were clearly #1 for a couple of weeks in May and June and that was good enough to make me very happy! ;D)

When I submit my posters' poll ballot early next week, I suspect I'll be like FCGG - if Neb Wes wins it all, they will almost certainly be #1 (and MAYBE the same for UWO); if someone else wins I will seriously consider putting someone else #1 (probably Whitman, as they are guaranteed of finishing the year with the best winning % regardless of the FF).

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11765 on: March 14, 2018, 05:25:24 pm »
We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!

The 2010 IWU team was voted #1, but it is the only non-unanimous #1 national champion I can ever recall.  I bleed green, but even I admitted on the tourney boards at the time that I doubted they were #1 if the whole year is taken into account (but added that they were clearly #1 for a couple of weeks in May and June and that was good enough to make me very happy! ;D)

When I submit my posters' poll ballot early next week, I suspect I'll be like FCGG - if Neb Wes wins it all, they will almost certainly be #1 (and MAYBE the same for UWO); if someone else wins I will seriously consider putting someone else #1 (probably Whitman, as they are guaranteed of finishing the year with the best winning % regardless of the FF).
As proud and supportive of the island teams (ASC/SCAC/SCIAC/NWC), I was surprised that Whitman did not beat Schreiner by more than 10. In any case, a rested Whitman (no more than ~ 25 minutes for any player) should not have been taken to OT in the second game of the tourney on their home court.

They have the best winning percentage, but I cannot give a first place vote to them on that basis. Neb Wes just controlled them and that upscale style of play is not foreign to Whitman.

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11766 on: March 14, 2018, 06:12:33 pm »
We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!

The 2010 IWU team was voted #1, but it is the only non-unanimous #1 national champion I can ever recall.  I bleed green, but even I admitted on the tourney boards at the time that I doubted they were #1 if the whole year is taken into account (but added that they were clearly #1 for a couple of weeks in May and June and that was good enough to make me very happy! ;D)

When I submit my posters' poll ballot early next week, I suspect I'll be like FCGG - if Neb Wes wins it all, they will almost certainly be #1 (and MAYBE the same for UWO); if someone else wins I will seriously consider putting someone else #1 (probably Whitman, as they are guaranteed of finishing the year with the best winning % regardless of the FF).
As proud and supportive of the island teams (ASC/SCAC/SCIAC/NWC), I was surprised that Whitman did not beat Schreiner by more than 10. In any case, a rested Whitman (no more than ~ 25 minutes for any player) should not have been taken to OT in the second game of the tourney on their home court.

They have the best winning percentage, but I cannot give a first place vote to them on that basis. Neb Wes just controlled them and that upscale style of play is not foreign to Whitman.

As to round 2, I think CMS was seriously underrated by the end of the season - missing their best player for so long early on, their record kept voters from recognizing how good they were later.  As to your second paragraph, that does give me pause.  A #1 team should not get so TOTALLY dominated as they were by Neb Wes.  (I'll generally give any team ONE Mulligan, but THIRTY-THREE POINTS?! :o)  WashU and Witt would also be in the running - and perhaps even Neb Wes if I can come up with a legitimate-sounding reason why they lost in the FF?!

BTW, Greg apparently misunderstood: I only send checks to doctors who have treated me, and even then hope Medicare and my backup insurance will keep me from having to! ;)  Bringing up a factual point about D3 poll history (even if for a different sport) doesn't change that, even if it involves IWU! 8-)


Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11767 on: March 14, 2018, 06:34:09 pm »
IF Oshkosh wins it, I don't see how anyone can't give them the #1 nod. They went through THREE Top 10 teams just to get to the Final Four, two on their home courts. (at #3 Wittenberg, #6, Emory, and at #9 Augustana)...and ORV Marietta, who just dropped out in the last poll. And despite being #9, many probably thought Augustana was a favorite to make it to the Final Four.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11768 on: March 14, 2018, 07:49:16 pm »
As to round 2, I think CMS was seriously underrated by the end of the season - missing their best player for so long early on, their record kept voters from recognizing how good they were later.

That, and the fact that CMS is from the SCIAC, a league that's perennially non-competitive in March.

As to your second paragraph, that does give me pause.  A #1 team should not get so TOTALLY dominated as they were by Neb Wes.  (I'll generally give any team ONE Mulligan, but THIRTY-THREE POINTS?! :o)  WashU and Witt would also be in the running - and perhaps even Neb Wes if I can come up with a legitimate-sounding reason why they lost in the FF?!

There were questions all season long as to whether Whitman's schedule was giving people a clear picture of the team, to the point where some were wondering if Wash U, whose record was not as good as that of the Blues, really ought to be #1. Put those concerns together with the barely-scraped-by home win in OT over CMS and the rout at the hands of NebWes, and you get a Whitman team whose case for #1 in a year in which it didn't even get to the Final Four is by no means totally convincing.

IF Oshkosh wins it, I don't see how anyone can't give them the #1 nod. They went through THREE Top 10 teams just to get to the Final Four, two on their home courts. (at #3 Wittenberg, #6, Emory, and at #9 Augustana)...and ORV Marietta, who just dropped out in the last poll. And despite being #9, many probably thought Augustana was a favorite to make it to the Final Four.

I agree. If UW-Oshkosh wins the Big Doorstop, then the Titans really ought to be #1 on everybody's ballots.
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Offline Smitty Oom

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11769 on: March 14, 2018, 08:49:50 pm »
There were questions all season long as to whether Whitman's schedule was giving people a clear picture of the team, to the point where some were wondering if Wash U, whose record was not as good as that of the Blues, really ought to be #1. Put those concerns together with the barely-scraped-by home win in OT over CMS and the rout at the hands of NebWes, and you get a Whitman team whose case for #1 in a year in which it didn't even get to the Final Four is by no means totally convincing.

No it is not convincing, but nobody has a convincing resume for #1 at this point. Here are all teams getting votes for #1 in the pre-tourney poll:

- WashU (1 votes) ended the season losing two in a row, one of which was on their home court in the first round to Aurora.
- Witt (2 votes) lost in the second round at home, but it was to UW-Osh so not that bad of a loss considering how well they are playing right now.
- Whitworth (4 votes) will lose all of their first place after a first round loss to CMS (although I agree they were much better than their resume showed due to the injury to Scarlett).
- Williams had a great year winning the NESCAC tourney, but the 5 regular season losses + losing at home to Ramapo makes it hard to jump the other teams receiving 1st place votes.

More I think about it, I think the team that leaves Salem with The BeltTM....the Walnut and Bronze should be #1 in the 2018 postseason poll.

Offline FCGrizzliesGrad

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11770 on: March 14, 2018, 10:32:27 pm »
To me, being the champion is not the same as being #1 for the season. It means you had 6 good games in March. The rankings should reflect the whole year not a 20% section of it. Getting a trophy doesn't erase 3+ months of play.
People don't say they want to be ranked #1 at the end of the year... they say they want to be champions.

We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!
Good for them on winning the title but I wouldn't have had them #1. IWU finished 31-21 while Cortland St were 40-10-1... and they split the two games they played against each other. Without digging deeper into the schedules to see just how hard or easy each team had it (admittedly I don't follow baseball too much), I'd have Cortland easily ahead of IWU in my rankings.

A couple years ago when Golden State went 73-9 but lost in the finals to Cleveland (who were 57-25)... if I had to give an NBA Top 25 ballot, I absolutely would have had GS as #1 even though they didn't win the title.

Ultimately whoever wins the title won't care if they're not unanimous #1 or if they fail to be #1. It's just us who have nothing better to do than to argue complain discuss something while we wait all week for the action. :)
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Online Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11771 on: March 14, 2018, 10:59:57 pm »
To me, being the champion is not the same as being #1 for the season. It means you had 6 good games in March. The rankings should reflect the whole year not a 20% section of it. Getting a trophy doesn't erase 3+ months of play.
People don't say they want to be ranked #1 at the end of the year... they say they want to be champions.

We'll have to see how things play out but on my posters poll ballot I'm very open to not voting the champ #1 because I take into account the whole season. Going into the tournament I had Nebraska Wesleyan 16, Oshkosh was just off, with Springfield and Ramapo not too close. If Nebraska Wesleyan wins then they'll probably be my #1. Oshkosh I'm sure many would put #1, I'd have to think about it. Springfield and Ramapo I don't see any reason why I'd move them ahead of a team such as Whitman who was #1 going in to the tournament and made the Elite 8.

Just as an extreme example... let's say Berry ended up going all the way and were champions. They were 11-17 entering the tournament. I bet a couple people would vote them #1 simply because they were champs but most wouldn't. The question then becomes where's the line of how bad of a regular season can you have before it outweighs a great tournament.
The National Champion 2010 IWU baseball team was sub .500 going into the last week of the regular season.  How dramatic a turnaround do you need?

If some team overcomes 1:1000 odds, then fine!
Good for them on winning the title but I wouldn't have had them #1. IWU finished 31-21 while Cortland St were 40-10-1... and they split the two games they played against each other. Without digging deeper into the schedules to see just how hard or easy each team had it (admittedly I don't follow baseball too much), I'd have Cortland easily ahead of IWU in my rankings.

A couple years ago when Golden State went 73-9 but lost in the finals to Cleveland (who were 57-25)... if I had to give an NBA Top 25 ballot, I absolutely would have had GS as #1 even though they didn't win the title.

Ultimately whoever wins the title won't care if they're not unanimous #1 or if they fail to be #1. It's just us who have nothing better to do than to argue complain discuss something while we wait all week for the action. :)

True, but the first game was win-or-go-home for Cortland, while IWU was already guaranteed the title game.  Cortland won by 1.  In the title game, IWU led by 17-2 after 5, then coasted home to a 17-5 win.  I, too, would probably have voted Cortland (and perhaps several others) ahead of IWU for the season, but the head-to-head comparison is not exactly a point in your favor! ;D

And I am overall quite ambivalent on how to vote - total season or NOW.  Teams can change significantly over the course of the season.  Which SHOULD be more important is to me an open question.

And, of course, if you vote for NOW, you run into the 'small sample' problem.  I doubt there is a RIGHT answer.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11772 on: March 15, 2018, 09:09:18 am »

I agree that the final #1 doesn't have to be the tourney winner; they are separate.  However, usually those six games in March, even if they aren't all over world-beaters, is usually enough to boost the resume sufficiently.  The only real scenario where I wouldn't vote for the champion is if that champion was clearly on a roll over "getting it together late," AND there was a clear dominant team all year that had one bad game (or shot).  Think a 23-10 champ and a 31-1 alternative who lost in the semis or something.

The thing with a six round tournament is that you usually can't maintain a hot streak over three weeks.  You might have a sketchy team who peaks at the right time, but they're rarely pretenders.

To me, it's more about having a dominant team not winning the title than the relative strength of the champion.  We don't have an alternative team this year.

I still think both Hamilton and Swarthmore are "better" teams than Springfield, but the Pride beat both of them. There's not enough difference between them for my eyes to overrule the results on the court.
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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11773 on: March 15, 2018, 09:47:15 am »

I agree that the final #1 doesn't have to be the tourney winner; they are separate.  However, usually those six games in March, even if they aren't all over world-beaters, is usually enough to boost the resume sufficiently.  The only real scenario where I wouldn't vote for the champion is if that champion was clearly on a roll over "getting it together late," AND there was a clear dominant team all year that had one bad game (or shot).  Think a 23-10 champ and a 31-1 alternative who lost in the semis or something.

The thing with a six round tournament is that you usually can't maintain a hot streak over three weeks.  You might have a sketchy team who peaks at the right time, but they're rarely pretenders.

To me, it's more about having a dominant team not winning the title than the relative strength of the champion.  We don't have an alternative team this year.

I still think both Hamilton and Swarthmore are "better" teams than Springfield, but the Pride beat both of them. There's not enough difference between them for my eyes to overrule the results on the court.
With anywhere from 2-4 tourney games in the conference post-season tournaments, excepting the UAA, the run is even more impressive.

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Re: Top 25 talk
« Reply #11774 on: March 15, 2018, 10:08:54 am »

I agree that the final #1 doesn't have to be the tourney winner; they are separate.  However, usually those six games in March, even if they aren't all over world-beaters, is usually enough to boost the resume sufficiently.  The only real scenario where I wouldn't vote for the champion is if that champion was clearly on a roll over "getting it together late," AND there was a clear dominant team all year that had one bad game (or shot).  Think a 23-10 champ and a 31-1 alternative who lost in the semis or something.

The thing with a six round tournament is that you usually can't maintain a hot streak over three weeks.  You might have a sketchy team who peaks at the right time, but they're rarely pretenders.

To me, it's more about having a dominant team not winning the title than the relative strength of the champion.  We don't have an alternative team this year.

I still think both Hamilton and Swarthmore are "better" teams than Springfield, but the Pride beat both of them. There's not enough difference between them for my eyes to overrule the results on the court.
With anywhere from 2-4 tourney games in the conference post-season tournaments, excepting the UAA, the run is even more impressive.
Except that Springfield (0-1) and Oshkosh (1-1) lost in their respective conference semifinals.
Ramapo and Nebraska Wesleyan both went 2-0 and won their tournaments.
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