Author Topic: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference  (Read 2337847 times)

Offline Jonny Utah

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13815 on: April 09, 2018, 12:08:48 pm »
More than once we have seen news releases from D-1 and D2 schools where administrators have said that the requirement to pay scholarship athletes will prompt the institution to go to D3!

When Title IX will call for equal pay for male and female basketball players and a D-1 female gymnast "earns" as much as a Defensive Back, then it gets interesting.

Just once, I would love to hear the answer to the follow-up question to the congressman whether a D-1 female gymnast deserves "equal pay" to the male All-American basketball forward.

This is a false equivalency, to me.  No one is saying you have to pay everyone the same amount.  Let each school offer whatever they think the market will bear.  If (for instance) Notre Dame wants to get snooty and not offer football players money because they think the players should value the education they are offering, that's fine.  They can just watch the players they covet go get paid at Michigan.  That's Notre Dame's choice.

If a small school wants to corner the market on women's gymnastics, and offers big money to women's gymnasts, great!

As far as Title IX, there are more ways to satisfy the requirements than matching dollar for dollar.  Even if you do want them to match dollar for dollar, well, Clemson spent $55,000,000 on a new practice facility complete with a barbershop, bowling alley and 50-foot indoor slide.  Maybe endow that money instead and pay your players for the next 100 years.  And hey, that's money already allocated to football under Title IX!

I don't think d1 schools will go d3, they will just form their own NCAA with the exact same rules.  The Big 5 conferences would probably survive on their own and would be willing to leave if forced to pay players. 

dlippiel

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13816 on: April 09, 2018, 12:25:33 pm »
any NESCAC fan that thinks their member school academics are any more demanding than schools such as RPI or Union are just wrong.

Um, no.  You could certainly say that about D3 MIT.  But not RPI or Union.  For many of our sons, RPI and Union were safety schools.  You may not want to hear that, but it's true.  And we can back that up with empirical data.

In 2016, RPI's acceptance rate was 44.3%, while Union's was 36%.  The only NESCAC school that is in the same ballpark is Trinity at 33%.   Compare those rates to the rest of the NESCAC: Amherst 14%.  Bates 22.6%.  Bowdoin 14.3%.  Colby 17.5%.  Hamilton 26%.  Middlebury 16%.  Tufts 14%.  Wesleyan 17.7%.  Williams 16.8%.   

Which is not to say RPI and Union don't provide a wonderful education.  If our sons (and daughters) hadn't been accepted to the NESCAC, I am sure they would have had a great experience there.  But the facts are the facts.

Fair enough, and maybe you can back it up with empirical data, but you certainly did not here. Your data, based upon acceptance rates, IDHO, doesn't equate to a more challenging and/or larger course load. It also does not measure the "quality" of the academic institution in comparison to others. You could choose to let only 1 out of 25 people into your house and your house could still be a **** hole  ::).

dlip does agree with you for the most part. He just thinks the way you tried to "NESCAC" ufanbill was piss poor and hopefully not representative of a NESCAC education...maybe more a Union one.




Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13817 on: April 10, 2018, 11:12:59 am »
More than once we have seen news releases from D-1 and D2 schools where administrators have said that the requirement to pay scholarship athletes will prompt the institution to go to D3!

When Title IX will call for equal pay for male and female basketball players and a D-1 female gymnast "earns" as much as a Defensive Back, then it gets interesting.

Just once, I would love to hear the answer to the follow-up question to the congressman whether a D-1 female gymnast deserves "equal pay" to the male All-American basketball forward.

This is a false equivalency, to me.  No one is saying you have to pay everyone the same amount.  Let each school offer whatever they think the market will bear.  If (for instance) Notre Dame wants to get snooty and not offer football players money because they think the players should value the education they are offering, that's fine.  They can just watch the players they covet go get paid at Michigan.  That's Notre Dame's choice.

If a small school wants to corner the market on women's gymnastics, and offers big money to women's gymnasts, great!

As far as Title IX, there are more ways to satisfy the requirements than matching dollar for dollar.  Even if you do want them to match dollar for dollar, well, Clemson spent $55,000,000 on a new practice facility complete with a barbershop, bowling alley and 50-foot indoor slide.  Maybe endow that money instead and pay your players for the next 100 years.  And hey, that's money already allocated to football under Title IX!

I don't think d1 schools will go d3, they will just form their own NCAA with the exact same rules.  The Big 5 conferences would probably survive on their own and would be willing to leave if forced to pay players.
I think so, too!

Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13818 on: April 10, 2018, 07:58:25 pm »
  dlip does agree with you for the most part. He just thinks the way you tried to "NESCAC" ufanbill was piss poor and hopefully not representative of a NESCAC education...maybe more a Union one.

Sorry to burst your bubble.  Dartmouth undergrad here.  Though if I had a kid at Union, and some putz from another conference (NEC?  NEWMAC?  SUNYAC?) came on the Liberty League board talking smack, I would respond the same way.  (I guess you would then say I "Liberty-ed" them?) 

And what's your take on the data?  That kids apply to Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, et. al. because the weather is finer there than in Upstate?  The coeds are hotter?  The beer is colder?  The drugs are better?  The tuition is cheaper?  There are more non-gender specific bathrooms?  (You may have me there).  That their odds of meeting the one-legged lesbian bagpipe player of their dreams are higher in the NESCAC?  How, pray tell, does dlip spin the acceptance rates?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 08:05:06 pm by PolarCat »

Offline ColbyFootball

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13819 on: April 11, 2018, 02:46:19 pm »
Some nice news from Mayflower Hill.

Mark Snyder (WR, #88, Class of 2018) announced that he has accepted the Papadellis family coaching internship at Colby, and will be spending the 2018 season interning with the football team. Congratulations to a great young man.

dlippiel

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13820 on: April 11, 2018, 03:56:28 pm »
  dlip does agree with you for the most part. He just thinks the way you tried to "NESCAC" ufanbill was piss poor and hopefully not representative of a NESCAC education...maybe more a Union one.

Sorry to burst your bubble.  Dartmouth undergrad here.  Though if I had a kid at Union, and some putz from another conference (NEC?  NEWMAC?  SUNYAC?) came on the Liberty League board talking smack, I would respond the same way.  (I guess you would then say I "Liberty-ed" them?) 

And what's your take on the data?  That kids apply to Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, et. al. because the weather is finer there than in Upstate?  The coeds are hotter?  The beer is colder?  The drugs are better?  The tuition is cheaper?  There are more non-gender specific bathrooms?  (You may have me there).  That their odds of meeting the one-legged lesbian bagpipe player of their dreams are higher in the NESCAC?  How, pray tell, does dlip spin the acceptance rates?

+k for the post PolarCat. dlip enjoys some ribbing.

In all seriousness he really doesn't know a great data point to use to illustrate your point. He just felt that the one you used, acceptance rates, may not tell the entire story. Although he will restate the fact that he does agree with what you said. To be honest he really doesn't know how to best assess and/or rate schools in regards to pure academic excellence that would show a clear picture that would shut down any possible rebuttal. Princeton review may have some data? Maybe a look at the average salaries of graduates of NESCAC schools vs other highly reputable D3 academic institutions. Honestly, he doesn't really know, and admittedly because of that he should ease up on his critique of the data point you used.

Anyway, the banter was fun and to dlip, based on his own personal experience, as well as what he "feels" from observation and being a former college student himself, academically the NESCAC school sit, "Oh so high" on the academic excellence totem pole. Maybe the decision to not be considered for playoff entrance is based prominently on the idea of academics first and forming a tight knit group of like minded academic institutions.

With all of that being said to dlip, he can say with certainty, that because of the fact that NESCAC schools do not take part in the post season or play out of league games it is really almost impossible to accurately assess just how much better, worse, or similar they are to other D3 football schools. Someone previous made a comment that the top NESCAC teams would "crush" Union. Possibly...possibly not. There really isn't a true way to know where one could make such a statement with certainty and validity.

Offline amh63

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13821 on: April 12, 2018, 06:10:05 pm »
The discussion? Between dlip and PolarCat is reduced to the quality of football in the Nescac and at Union...yes or no?  That is how I see it.
In any case, there is some comparative data back in the old days when Union was an initial member of the Nescac.  Then as the story goes, Union chased the glory of post season and big time Hockey and left the conference...or was asked to leave by the other member schools at the time. 
Whatever the true story was at the time.....how did Union do in football in those days...before the present 75 player limit and the “tips” allowed to football.  Too lazy to research the archives for info...if any still exist and the SATs and ACT numbers, etc, etc.
Oh yes, about facilities, etc., entering in the football evaluation...remember when RPI poured money into athletic facilities and payed big Money to a new Prez, etc., etc., and RPI football did not get any better.  Have a good friend that went to RPI and Purdue for his PHD...now a retired professor of McEng at UMass Amherst.  Loves the Patriots...but never talks about RPI football  and Purdue football.
Stuck my nose here...have three kids that are Amherst alums.  All are sports fans.  No post season games in football is fine with them and that my fellow posters is what really counts.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 09:52:05 am by amh63 »

Offline frank uible

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13822 on: April 13, 2018, 11:56:36 am »
If one's team chooses to refrain from making itself eligible for post season play, then it is suggested that one also refrain from mentioning the team in the same breath as Mount Union and the like.

dlippiel

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13823 on: April 13, 2018, 12:05:06 pm »
The discussion? Between dlip and PolarCat is reduced to the quality of football in the Nescac and at Union...yes or no?  That is how I see it.
In any case, there is some comparative data back in the old days when Union was an initial member of the Nescac.  Then as the story goes, Union chased the glory of post season and big time Hockey and left the conference...or was asked to leave by the other member schools at the time. 
Whatever the true story was at the time.....how did Union do in football in those days...before the present 75 player limit and the “tips” allowed to football.  Too lazy to research the archives for info...if any still exist and the SATs and ACT numbers, etc, etc.
Oh yes, about facilities, etc., entering in the football evaluation...remember when RPI poured money into athletic facilities and payed big Money to a new Prez, etc., etc., and RPI football did not get any better.  Have a good friend that went to RPI and Purdue for his PHD...now a retired professor of McEng at UMass Amherst.  Loves the Patriots...but never talks about RPI football  and Purdue football.
Stuck my nose here...have three kids that are Amherst alums.  All are sports fans.  No post season games in football is fine with them and that my fellow posters is what really counts.

Absolutely agree!

Offline UfanBill

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13824 on: April 13, 2018, 09:45:25 pm »
The discussion? Between dlip and PolarCat is reduced to the quality of football in the Nescac and at Union...yes or no?  That is how I see it.[/b]

NO, the discussion was NOT specifically a comparison of NESCAC and Union. Union was only mentioned because it was a charter member of the NESCAC that left and soon after achieved considerable success in the D3 post season with TWO D3 championship Stagg Bow! appearances, thank you very much. The  premise is would the NESCAC champ advance through one of more games against the BEST of D3, not Union. Union is currently FAR from the best. I think that it is unlikely or at least extremely rare that an extended run, and thus multiple post season games would result in "interfering with high academics"  of the NESCAC.
On your other point about RPI and the Patriots, whatever that was? You're evidently not aware that former RPI player and Patriots defensive coordinator Matt Patricia, was recently named head coach of the Detroit Lions...which is irrelevant but interesting.

Offline Vandy74

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13825 on: April 13, 2018, 11:42:50 pm »
amh63....I trust your recent eye surgery went well.  Why are you spending time on this board when your presence is needed over on the lacrosse board?  You've been sorely missed.  As I know you're well aware of, the LJ men are playing their biggest game of the season tomorrow while the women are one of four teams fighting it out for the #1 seed in the conference tournament.  It's going to be one hell of a weekend my friend.


Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13826 on: April 17, 2018, 11:36:58 pm »
+k for the post PolarCat. dlip enjoys some ribbing.

In all seriousness he really doesn't know a great data point to use to illustrate your point. He just felt that the one you used, acceptance rates, may not tell the entire story. Although he will restate the fact that he does agree with what you said. To be honest he really doesn't know how to best assess and/or rate schools in regards to pure academic excellence that would show a clear picture that would shut down any possible rebuttal. Princeton review may have some data? Maybe a look at the average salaries of graduates of NESCAC schools vs other highly reputable D3 academic institutions. Honestly, he doesn't really know, and admittedly because of that he should ease up on his critique of the data point you used.

+K back at cha.  That ideal data point may be as elusive as PolarCat's head of hair: it looks robust in memory, but elusive in reality.  As a Dartmouth guy (alma mater of Hank Paulson, Timothy Geithner, Jeffrey Immelt, David Benioff and Dr. Seuss) the salary metric has some appeal.  Sadly, the NESCAC schools might encourage more of their graduates to spend their careers helping indigenous tofu farmers in the Seychelles, campaigning for non-gender-specific loos, or working as unpaid campaign interns for Elizabeth Warren.  PC would prefer a different metric, as he suspects Union grads are less looney toons than many of the millennial product of the 'CAC today.

Football players excluded, of course.

dlippiel

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13827 on: April 19, 2018, 10:31:05 am »
+k for the post PolarCat. dlip enjoys some ribbing.

In all seriousness he really doesn't know a great data point to use to illustrate your point. He just felt that the one you used, acceptance rates, may not tell the entire story. Although he will restate the fact that he does agree with what you said. To be honest he really doesn't know how to best assess and/or rate schools in regards to pure academic excellence that would show a clear picture that would shut down any possible rebuttal. Princeton review may have some data? Maybe a look at the average salaries of graduates of NESCAC schools vs other highly reputable D3 academic institutions. Honestly, he doesn't really know, and admittedly because of that he should ease up on his critique of the data point you used.

+K back at cha.  That ideal data point may be as elusive as PolarCat's head of hair: it looks robust in memory, but elusive in reality.  As a Dartmouth guy (alma mater of Hank Paulson, Timothy Geithner, Jeffrey Immelt, David Benioff and Dr. Seuss) the salary metric has some appeal.  Sadly, the NESCAC schools might encourage more of their graduates to spend their careers helping indigenous tofu farmers in the Seychelles, campaigning for non-gender-specific loos, or working as unpaid campaign interns for Elizabeth Warren.  PC would prefer a different metric, as he suspects Union grads are less looney toons than many of the millennial product of the 'CAC today.

Football players excluded, of course.

PC, that is one of the best pieces of writing dlip has witnessed on here in sometime. It probably applies to as many Union graduates also. dlip is not trying to go overboard here but he must hit you with another +k for that. 

Offline amh63

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13828 on: April 23, 2018, 12:00:06 pm »
PolarCat.....going to miss your fine wit when your kids graduate this Spring :)
My youngest son and his wife spent a weekend near Hanover in nearby Lebanon?.  Glad he and his wife survived the Wild Indians in the area...guess the Big Green is tamer than the “Animal House” day’s of my youth :).
My granddaughter has the making of a Nescac or Ivy student.  Big Green maybe too big for her, and Cambridge maybe to crazy for her...though MIT is evolving into a less nerdy place than I remember.  Still a few years away but starting to lay the groundwork for her.  Interesting to hear that both Amherst and Williams are starting to look for new Deans of Admissions.  Williams is starting to wind down its Capital Campaign as Amherst has just started its Capital Campaign!  Wonder if it will have an impact on athletic recruiting....especially wrt football.  See, I am aware that this is the football board.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 10:01:11 am by amh63 »

Offline GovCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #13829 on: April 24, 2018, 05:37:58 pm »
This is my first time posting. Just heard that Harriman is out at Bates. Quit today.