Author Topic: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference  (Read 2759569 times)

Offline Hawk196

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15375 on: January 04, 2019, 11:09:18 am »

Thanks for this, lumbercat.   I am not sure that I understand your point about "Trinity being the one and only program that gets close …"   I would argue that Williams, Amherst, and a few of the other successful football programs make a 100% clear commitment to football WITHIN the confines of the NESCAC structure.   They focus intensely on what they can control - the NESCAC.   I don't think that Trinity is the only one who gets close - a lot of them do, within the box that is NESCAC football.   All kinds of arguments as to why Trinity wins more that are not worth getting into again, but it is not because they are closer to a national scope.


OK I'm new here and having gone through the NESCAC recruiting process I'm curious with Trinity. My Son brought up his SATs so it wasn't a problem with the other NESCAC schools, but initially it was a concern and the coaches at Trinity mentioned they don't use SAT scores. With this in mind, is Trinity "easier" to get into therefore expanding the pool of talent they recruit?
Sorry to scratch the scab off of a wound, but inquiring minds want to know  ;D

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15376 on: January 04, 2019, 12:32:30 pm »
JEFFFAN-

Based on my observations and experiences it is my option that Trinity operates completely within NESCAC guidelines but they extend themselves more and make a stronger commitment to winning football than the 2 elites and anyone else in the conference for that matter.
Not saying Amherst and Williams are slackers in this regard by any means, but top to bottom I think the Trinity football commitment is the strongest in the conference.

I respect the approach Trinity has taken and they have been justly rewarded. The picture posted by Trin8-0 a while back with the 5 championship rings tells the story. I think we all admire their winning culture and the respect the level of success they have achieved.

Offline JEFFFAN

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15377 on: January 04, 2019, 01:10:21 pm »

Thanks, lumbercat.   We might just respectfully disagree on this.   I think that Amherst and Williams, in particular, are intensely and completely focused on winning in football.   Likely Middlebury and a few others as well.    I see no less of a commitment to winning on their part than Trinity, even if Trinity wins more, which I again believe is more a function of other factors than commitment.

For what one person's observation is, although AMH63 might want to jump in here, I know a lot of the Amherst coaches in a variety of sports.   For good or for bad, none of them is as intensely focused on winning as Mills.  All of the coaches want to win and many do, but Mills is "scary intense" about it.  My guess is that the head coaches at Trinity, Amherst, Williams and others would not suggest that any of the others are not fully committed to winning.   The caveat here is that I do not believe that the Colby, Bates, Bowdoin programs are as committed to winning.   They are likely more committed to doing okay, knowing that the chance of them winning a title are very, very low.

Good dialogue.

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15378 on: January 04, 2019, 01:29:06 pm »
Jeff
Sure, I repect your point.
However I'm not even including the passion of the Head Coach in my assertion. There is no question in my mind that Malik Hall at Bates or JB Wells ex of Bowdoin want to win as much as Mills. I'd argue that with you all day long.

My point is the institutional commitment, top to bottom, to winning football games. I don't believe it's as strong anywhere else in the conference than it is at Trinity. Even at the elites.

Offline amh63

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15379 on: January 05, 2019, 10:39:28 am »
Lumbercat....need a little more clarity on “institutional commitments”.  As posted in the past, Amherst has had a number of brothers play against each other in games....all starters and some star players.
With respect to coaches and their intensities.....do not want to tread into the discussion :).
I too know a number of the coaches and simply will state that Nescac coaches share many educational benefits that professors have wrt to their kids.  I do know two wives of football coaches...both know and are classmates of my younger son Joshua’95.  Both ladies have helped me on campus when I am lost or searching for someone....not unusual.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 03:56:28 pm by amh63 »

Offline Trinalum1975

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15380 on: January 05, 2019, 09:01:44 pm »
Hey guys,

Any update on the Bowdoin job? Wondering about candidates/timeline for hire.

Offline polbear73

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15381 on: January 06, 2019, 08:01:52 am »
Hey guys,

Any update on the Bowdoin job? Wondering about candidates/timeline for hire.

Have heard nothing over the holidays to change what's been previously reported:  4 final candidates (including, per Lumbercat, Chris Rorke, Bobby Acosta) with a mid-January objective.  Search committee incudes AD, major donor to Whittier Field renovation and Trustee, former Director of Admissions and current Senior Vice President-Development, and current Director of Admissions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:55:04 am by polbear73 »

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15382 on: January 06, 2019, 01:37:52 pm »
Lumbercat....need a little more clarity on “institutional commitments”.  (quote)





Amh63-

Football expenditures by school 2017:

Trinity $805,751
Williams $569,327
Amherst $672,870

Additional Football game expenditure-  per game- per team member  2017:

Trinity $2,240
Williams $1,658
Amherst $ 1,496

Football Revenues- 2017

Trinity $1,039,788
Williams $569,327
Amherst $744,860
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:19:51 pm by lumbercat »

Offline amh63

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15383 on: January 06, 2019, 03:16:31 pm »
 Lumbercat...thanks for the info....interesting!  Where were your sources?  Such numbers are not in the annual fiscal reports...at Amherst.  Amherst does not charge for games and I do not believe the Friends of .... Athletes, fill in the school, gifts/funds are openly published/specified.  Oh well, the numbers are revealing, considering Amherst and Williams both have Endownments that rank in the top 40 colleges and universities in America and Canada.

Offline middhoops

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15384 on: January 06, 2019, 04:02:35 pm »
Lumbercat,  what are "revenues" in NESCAC football?

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15385 on: January 06, 2019, 04:36:56 pm »
Lumbercat,  what are "revenues" in NESCAC football?


The biggest component is "contributions from alumni and others"
Other factors in play to a lesser extent in the NESCAC are revenues from camps, clinics, golf outings, student fees, ticket sales......

Offline gridiron

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15386 on: January 06, 2019, 08:25:02 pm »
Lumber,

Great info to have compiled. Thx for sharing and helos to understand your comments regarding commitment for sure. Would be interesting to compare to the rest of the league.

Offline polbear73

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15387 on: January 07, 2019, 09:10:22 am »
https://bowdoinorient.com/2018/10/26/money-cant-fix-everything-even-bowdoin-football/

Above is an article in the Bowdoin Orient of a few weeks ago which amplifies lumbercat's research.  Interesting to note that Bowdoin's football expenditures were second to Trinity's and exceeded $700,000.  A lot of catching up to do!

Offline NED3Guy

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15388 on: January 07, 2019, 10:56:16 am »
The equity in education statistics, although interesting to look at, are often times misleading due to a variety of factors.... for instance, the fact that the Maine teams have to travel further than other teams for most away games spikes their expenses year after year...does that really mean they're being supported more than a team (Tufts for example) spending less money because they can day trip it to most opponents and not have the costs of hotel and such?

Staff structure also plays a big part in those numbers as well. A friend who coaches football at a non nescac d3 school has a "second duty" (like most d3 coaches). Therefore his salary does not show in the institutional data as a football expense because he's not "full time" with football.....that second duty of his: monitoring the weight room a few days a week from 6-8am. I know there are far fewer nescac football coaches doing two sports these days (hat tip to Bob Ritter!), but many have S&C duty or game management duties. If the AD wanted to they could list that salary as part time football and only show seasonal earnings for that coach in the data

Also keep in mind that this info is supplied by the institution. Yes it's an official database overseen by the government, but I know a few ADs who try desperately to show salary dollars as non football (even happens in hockey and lacrosse) in order to present more equitable spending with regards to title 9.

Still fun to look at the data:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

Offline Trin8-0

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #15389 on: January 07, 2019, 12:04:05 pm »
OK I'm new here and having gone through the NESCAC recruiting process I'm curious with Trinity. My Son brought up his SATs so it wasn't a problem with the other NESCAC schools, but initially it was a concern and the coaches at Trinity mentioned they don't use SAT scores. With this in mind, is Trinity "easier" to get into therefore expanding the pool of talent they recruit?
Sorry to scratch the scab off of a wound, but inquiring minds want to know  ;D
Trinity is far from the only "test-optional" school in the NESCAC; Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Bates, and Connecticut College similarly do not require SAT scores. Other "test-flexible" schools, which waive test requirements if you meet a minimum GPA or are applying to a specific program, include Colby, Hamilton, and Middlebury.


Football expenditures by school 2017:

Trinity $805,751
Williams $569,327
Amherst $672,870

Additional Football game expenditure-  per game- per team member  2017:

Trinity $2,240
Williams $1,658
Amherst $ 1,496

Football Revenues- 2017

Trinity $1,039,788
Williams $569,327
Amherst $744,860

Can you provide a source for this information?


A few NESCAC commits:

Trinity:
Rob Milhaly, OL, 6'3", 235, St. Joseph, Trumbull, CT, Named 1st team All-State
Darren Warren, DB, 5'9", 183, St. Joseph, Trumbull, CT
Kevin Clark, TE, 6'1", 220, RHAM, Hebron, CT
Wes Terzi, QB, 6', 182, Sheehan, Wallingford, CT
Luke Folan, DE, 6'2", 235, Catholic Memorial, West Roxbury, MA

Wesleyan:
Nick Helbig, DL, 6'2", 240, Fitch, Groton, CT
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:18:15 pm by Trin8-0 »
NESCAC CHAMPIONS: 1972, 1974, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018
UNDEFEATED SEASONS: 1911, 1915, 1934, 1949, 1954, 1955, 1993, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016