Author Topic: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference  (Read 2295723 times)

PolarBearPA

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14490 on: September 16, 2018, 04:06:04 pm »
In response to the Bowdoin coach discussion from above:

From the administrative standpoint: If you hire a guy away from a place where he (football) was very strongly supported, you're either a) planning to support him to that same level, b) knowingly not going to support him at the same level, but will not really evaluate him on his record, or c) didn't do your homework to find out how strongly his old program was supported, and expect him to be a miracle man.

From his standpoint, in order to leave a great situation where you were very supportive you'd need: a) assurances from new schools admim that you'd get support, b) assurances that winning would not be one of the evaluative methods of you job success, c) to have a giant ego and think you could work a miracle, or d) way more money than you had at previous gig.

I'm not sure what combination of these facts are true up at Bowdoin, but I've often wondered why JB took the job.

The same questions could be asked about Murray / Hamilton, but I do think the empire 8 (where Murray came from) was going though some big changes (letting the State schools in) during the last few years, so maybe staying at Alfred was less appealing because of that?

Or does it really just come down to quality of life at NESCAC schools that draws candidates?
Bowdoin had approximately 120 candidates for its head coaching job, from which 3 finalists emerged: an Ivy assistant, Coach Wells, and a head coach from an academically strong southern D3 school. Bowdoin couldn't come to terms with the Ivy assistant, but enticed Coach Wells with promises to upgrade the football facilities, employ a full staff of assistants, and make certain accommodations in Admissions. The latter promise has been offered in the past and always is the subject of conflict.

There is always strong interest in a NESCAC head job, even one known as "the place where coaching careers go to die" because 1. You're coaching the cream of the student athlete crop, 2. Have the ability to recruit on a nation wide basis, 3. The prestige associated with the high academic standing of a NESCAC school along with the athletic accomplishments of Conference members, 4. The compensation is greater than most D3 programs, and 5. The quality of life connected to a NESCAC campus and surrounding communities ( despite NESCACMAN's assertion, mid coast Maine is a wonderful place to live with a climate no colder than that of Burlington or Williamstown and some believe to be more moderate).

Coach Wells came to Bowdoin with a sincere belief that he could turn the program around (every coach worth his salt does) and my guess is that he accomplished so much at Endicott that he was ready for a new challenge. There is no denying that he has brought a new energy to the program and all signs are that he has upgraded recruiting, the "performance" yesterday notwithstanding.

In my opinion, Bowdoin's football problem is institutional as the administration has done nothing to change the appearance that they believe intercollegiate athletics are nothing more than an extracurricular activity and football, specifically, is a necessary evil. The faculty has been vocally anti " helmet" sports and both the Administration and Admissions seem to hear them. The result is that mediocrity has seeped into all sports at Bowdoin (with the notable exception of tennis and women's basketball) and haplessness to football. Yes, Bowdoin does admit some very good talent to the football program, but not enough as depth has always been a problem.

There are more than four supporters of the Bowdoin football program and there is an influential supportive presence on the Board. However, an 18 game losing streak during which competiveness has been rare with little sign of progress  is beginning to erode that support with the sense of futility.

As a football alumnus, I feel for the players as they have tried to perform to the best of their ability. Playing losing football is not fun and I give them a ton of credit for coming back week after week to try to improve. I never thought I'd say this, but unless the College is prepared to do what is necessary to reach competitiveness in a conference that they helped found,  then they ought to drop the program, one that has been around for 127 years. It would change the character of the College, and not for the better, but performances like yesterday, and those of the past three years, do nobody any good.

Whoa! Hold on... I have to jump in here. I hope the talk of "dropping the program" at Bowdoin is more out of frustration in the moment rather than clear, thought out reasoning and analysis. While the current performance on the field is unacceptable, I am sure the coaches, players and administration are keenly aware of this and are doing everything they can to turn the corner. All programs go through down periods. This one at Bowdoin certainly seems to be going on for a long time.

That being said lets take a deep breath. This is D3 football. The NESCAC is not developing NFL talent. Whether a team is 9-0 or 0-9 on the season, life lessons are being taught on the field. Life is full of ups and downs and surprises. The college experience, even on a winless football team, is a safe place to experience life challenges and get prepared for what "real life" is going to challenge them with down the road.

Football is one of those unique sports where teamwork trumps all individuality. What a great lesson! These teams are molding young men to be leaders in our society. Not matter what the record, the football teams in the NESCAC and all across D3 are developing our next leaders in a society desperate in need of them.

Bowdoin supports is 31 varsity athletic programs including Football. Many of its programs are competitive on a regional and national level. A new locker room / training facility is going up behind the new home football grandstands. Whittier field is one of the most historic, beautiful, and now more modern places to play football in the northeast. Give it time. Bowdoin football will be competitive again. In the meantime, they will continue to turn out outstanding young men ready to take on and solve the problems of the world. There is no need of talk around dropping a program. 


Offline monjmafb

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14491 on: September 16, 2018, 05:51:00 pm »
I agree that Bowdoin should keep its program.  And I  really think it can be improved. 

I had the pleasure of watching the Ephs beat Bowdoin yesterday.  Really enjoyed the classic grandstand(except when it obstructed my view), but was struck by the poor shape of some of  the facilities, i.e. locker rooms and public restrooms.  Williams did not even bother to walk to their locker rooms ( a good 5 minute walk across the street) at halftime - I am sure the 31-0 score helped.   Nonetheless it sounds like Bowdoin will get new locker rooms by next year which should help recruiting and the game day experience.

On the recruiting front, Wells really has no excuse.  He has an excellent academic program to back him up (let's be real here - it is near the top of the NESCAC).  My son, now an Eph, generated interest from Bowdoin, but they never really put the pressure on.  I'll bet they waited for us to come to Brunswick and it did not work.  Their recruiters have to sell the academic reputation to top players with solid grades/scores and convince them to visit Brunswick.   Yes location matters, all the much more reason that Bowdoin recruiters should be pushing recruits to visit.   Mills, as another example, has mastered the ability to leverage Amherst's great reputation to generate a constant flow of good recruits(of course he is also is a great coach too).

Offline polbear73

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14492 on: September 16, 2018, 06:28:34 pm »
To my knowledge, there is absolutely no consideration anywhere of Bowdoin giving up football. My comments (and those of fellow alumni and former Bowdoin teammates) were the result of a disappointment in the Program over the last 40 years. We continue to support the Program but patience is running out. You have no idea how many times that we've been told that the turnaround is right around the corner. My challenge of to the Administration: give the program the resources it needs to be competitive or do not continue with this extended period of futility.

I heartily agree with PolarBearPa's comments on the benefits of football at Bowdoin, and the beauty of Whittier Field (monjmafb: Whittier Field is currently in phase 2 of major renovations and those items you mentioned will be rectified) as I continue to experience them 40 some years after I played .
Bowdoin espouses excellence in every area of pursuit. Football has never really lived up to that standard and its past time they did.

Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14493 on: September 16, 2018, 06:35:31 pm »
Interesting perspective, and maybe a piece of the puzzle.

This is the second time in 18 months I've heard this critique of the Bowdoin recruiting experience.  The first time was from the father of a Class of 2021 kid who went to a different NESCAC, started as a FY, and is an impact player in anyone's book.

That father is a coach with an impeccable resume, and knows a thing or two about recruiting.  His comments appear to be corroborated by this gentleman, who's son appears to be a 2022.

Endicott has a nice location, and lovely facilities for a D3.  Maybe Wells didn't have to "sell" his program to kids (and parents) who had no chance of playing NESCAC, Patriot League or Ivy football.

Just a thought.  Might be completely wrong, but it's funny to hear this same critique twice.

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14494 on: September 16, 2018, 07:28:47 pm »
2 posts today which reflect a recurring theme on this board over the years. There must be a echo in here.

First today  we heard the old spin on losing--- "this is only D3.....we are building character and preparing leaders so winning is not that important.....life lessons are being learned".....I heard that drivel in the past at Bates until the new president came in and said "We want to win". A breath of fresh air!

Ive seen that nonsense espoused in the past at Bates and Hamilton and more recently at Bowdoin. Interestingly the longest losing streak in recent years in  NESCAC football was at Tufts. Throughout that painful period I never heard the Tufts community try to spin the losing tree into something positive. They never accepted it and committed to change it. Maybe thats why they are enjoying winning in a great program.

Thats how character is built.

I'll ask that poster where he would be in his profession if he achieved a job performance which was analogous to a 2-28 football record. If these kids go out and go 2-28 in the real world they are in big trouble if not gone. If I went 2-28 in my profession I'd be under extreme duress along with several I work with if not looking for another job

Maybe you don't have to win em all but please don't try to spin losing em all into something positive.

The other echoed spiel that repeats itself comes from the NESCAC Helicopter pilots....."Oh, yeah we heard from that school but they aren't very good recruiters because they didn't followup with my boy Johnny who is without question a future D3 All American- why wouldn't they get back to Johnny"??

I laugh like heck at that one.

These teams are recruiting from a pool of 300-400 which they have identified within a national pool of THOUSANDS of high school prospects.

Maybe they don't want Johnny because they are deep at that position or they just don't think he's good enough. Or, maybe they see him ultimately going to another program so they make a call to move on and focus on other prospects........And, last, maybe they assessed the parent as an overbearing coddling helicopter jockey who would bring nothing but headaches to the program if Johnny doesn't get on the field. 1.  6

It's a well known fact that won't be admitted openly but coaches will walk away from a recruit if they foresee the parental headaches. Many good recruits lost opportunities because of Daddys performance in the recruiting process.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 08:36:23 pm by lumbercat »

Offline amh63

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14495 on: September 16, 2018, 07:41:27 pm »
To the most recent posters today....other than myself, of course several follow up comments.  There has been a number of schools that dropped their football programs during my football watching days.  BU in Boston and GWU in D.C.  The BU stadium was used by a pro football team for at least a year as was Harvard Stadium. That pro team is now called the NE Patriots of the NFL...coached by a former Wesleyan football player.  Have a friend and former workmate that went to GWU to play football and study engineering.  Had more time for engineering studies when football was dropped.
Been thinking about several schools in some high profile football conferences that have no chance to ever win their conferences in football.....Northwestern in the “Big Ten?” and Vandy74’s college in the SEC conference....both private universities in a public school based conferences.  Bowdoin has a better chance to share an Nescac Title than those cited universities with high academic reps and big Endownments.  Then there is The Un of Cal at Berkeley...”Cal” to its alums.  Even with its new stadium, Cal’s chances to win the PAC 12? Is nil.  Yet the annual football battle between Stanford and Cal is as intense as the Harvard vs Yale game.  Why do such schools still have football programs?  Is for money?  Is it for school enrollment and student experience/atmosphere?  It is a puzzle for me.

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14496 on: September 16, 2018, 09:30:14 pm »
AMH63
In my opinion 2 reasons.

First these programs are very profitable. The numbers aren't as great as the NFL revenues but consider running an NFL franchise without the biggest expense- player salaries.

Second, if they dropped Football at Cal or Stanford (or even Bowdoin for that matter) Alumni contributions would decrease.

Offline ColbyFootball

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14497 on: September 16, 2018, 10:04:56 pm »
I listen with great interest to all of the comments about the failures of some programs, i.e. Bowdoin. I guess I'm just a simple minded football guy, but I don't get it. Each school brings something different and special to the table, and as the HC you need to sell that special something. Coaching is not just x's and o's, you have to get players. That said, coaches that are not getting it done in games must be replaced. I understand recruiting budgets aren't big in the nescac, but with social media and the internet, you really do need less money if you work wisely. Utilize contacts with as many HS coaches as possible, and constantly try to increase the number of those contacts. Develop a stream of players. It takes time, but it's worth it.

Think about it, if you can bring in 20-25 players a year, and only lose kids to injuries and not walking away from the program, you will roster 76 kids every year.

So given the thousands upon thousands of players nationwide, if you can't sell your nescac school to 20-25 kids every year something is wrong. That should be the HC's goal.  And make hard working team players a priority. Make them buy into the program by showing them you're all in. And then coach the heck out of them. 

I refuse to believe a single nescac program cannot be competitive if they follow this approach.

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14498 on: September 16, 2018, 10:17:43 pm »
We love watching the C-B-B pillow fighters debate amongst themselves why their teams are subpar and what they need to do to fix the problems...quite entertaining...sort of like watching a car crash or a train wreck in real time...

Speaking for ourselves, we have never given Coach Wells a pass (or Coach Murray for that matter)...the last several years, we were more focused on those more deserving of criticism (Michaeles, Kelton, Caputi, etc)...we wanted to give Wells and Murray a chance to establish themselves, work with admissions, hire their own staff, recruit their own kids etc. Well guess what...Wells and Murray are now officially on the hot seat..They’ve had more than enough time to show progress and guess what, the programs are basically where they stood before they were hired... That’s fine if you are Alabama, Clemson or Hartford State but if we were Polar Bear or Continental alums, that wouldn’t cut it for us...

And one lil tidbit on HCOF Wells...when the Endicott job was open this past off season, Wells threw his hat in the ring and wanted to come back...the sticking point, his salary...Wells wanted Endicott to match his Bowdoin HCOF comp and apperantly they balked at that deal...apparently the grass may actually be greener at Bowdoin (in terms of $$$ anyway)...not sure when Wells contract is up at Bowdoin but we wouldnt be surprised at all to see him sail into the sunset at the end of his current contract...btw, there is not a shot in h*ll that Bowdoin fires him before the contract ends and eats any $$$...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 10:33:16 pm by Nescacman »

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14499 on: September 16, 2018, 10:19:06 pm »
2 posts today which reflect a recurring theme on this board over the years. There must be a echo in here.

First today  we heard the old spin on losing--- "this is only D3.....we are building character and preparing leaders so winning is not that important.....life lessons are being learned".....I heard that drivel in the past at Bates until the new president came in and said "We want to win". A breath of fresh air!

Ive seen that nonsense espoused in the past at Bates and Hamilton and more recently at Bowdoin. Interestingly the longest losing streak in recent years in  NESCAC football was at Tufts. Throughout that painful period I never heard the Tufts community try to spin the losing tree into something positive. They never accepted it and committed to change it. Maybe thats why they are enjoying winning in a great program.

Thats how character is built.

I'll ask that poster where he would be in his profession if he achieved a job performance which was analogous to a 2-28 football record. If these kids go out and go 2-28 in the real world they are in big trouble if not gone. If I went 2-28 in my profession I'd be under extreme duress along with several I work with if not looking for another job

Maybe you don't have to win em all but please don't try to spin losing em all into something positive.

The other echoed spiel that repeats itself comes from the NESCAC Helicopter pilots....."Oh, yeah we heard from that school but they aren't very good recruiters because they didn't followup with my boy Johnny who is without question a future D3 All American- why wouldn't they get back to Johnny"??

I laugh like heck at that one.

These teams are recruiting from a pool of 300-400 which they have identified within a national pool of THOUSANDS of high school prospects.

Maybe they don't want Johnny because they are deep at that position or they just don't think he's good enough. Or, maybe they see him ultimately going to another program so they make a call to move on and focus on other prospects........And, last, maybe they assessed the parent as an overbearing coddling helicopter jockey who would bring nothing but headaches to the program if Johnny doesn't get on the field. 1.  6

It's a well known fact that won't be admitted openly but coaches will walk away from a recruit if they foresee the parental headaches. Many good recruits lost opportunities because of Daddys performance in the recruiting process.

Thank you Lumber, we could not have said it better ourselves.... +k for you!

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14500 on: September 16, 2018, 10:29:07 pm »
I listen with great interest to all of the comments about the failures of some programs, i.e. Bowdoin. I guess I'm just a simple minded football guy, but I don't get it. Each school brings something different and special to the table, and as the HC you need to sell that special something. Coaching is not just x's and o's, you have to get players. That said, coaches that are not getting it done in games must be replaced. I understand recruiting budgets aren't big in the nescac, but with social media and the internet, you really do need less money if you work wisely. Utilize contacts with as many HS coaches as possible, and constantly try to increase the number of those contacts. Develop a stream of players. It takes time, but it's worth it.

Think about it, if you can bring in 20-25 players a year, and only lose kids to injuries and not walking away from the program, you will roster 76 kids every year.

So given the thousands upon thousands of players nationwide, if you can't sell your nescac school to 20-25 kids every year something is wrong. That should be the HC's goal.  And make hard working team players a priority. Make them buy into the program by showing them you're all in. And then coach the heck out of them. 

I refuse to believe a single nescac program cannot be competitive if they follow this approach.

Colby, while we hear you on numbers, your view is an overly simplistic view of the world. It isn’t just a numbers game. It’s not just getting 20-25 kids but getting the RIGHT 20-25 kids...look at your cross state rival....Bowdoin has what, like 35 FY’s including the supposed next coming of the FLB himself (aka, Fawn’s Lil Brother aka Jared Leibowitz) and they look like they are regressing, not progressing...quality, not quantity...

Oh, and as far as our lil wager, we drink Bullit 10 and smoke Montecristo #2’s....we’ll coordinate schedules to collect....btw, we would have given you 28, which would have still been plenty enough...
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 10:31:48 pm by Nescacman »

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14501 on: September 16, 2018, 10:48:42 pm »
I listen with great interest to all of the comments about the failures of some programs, i.e. Bowdoin. I guess I'm just a simple minded football guy, but I don't get it. Each school brings something different and special to the table, and as the HC you need to sell that special something. Coaching is not just x's and o's, you have to get players. That said, coaches that are not getting it done in games must be replaced. I understand recruiting budgets aren't big in the nescac, but with social media and the internet, you really do need less money if you work wisely. Utilize contacts with as many HS coaches as possible, and constantly try to increase the number of those contacts. Develop a stream of players. It takes time, but it's worth it.

Think about it, if you can bring in 20-25 players a year, and only lose kids to injuries and not walking away from the program, you will roster 76 kids every year.

So given the thousands upon thousands of players nationwide, if you can't sell your nescac school to 20-25 kids every year something is wrong. That should be the HC's goal.  And make hard working team players a priority. Make them buy into the program by showing them you're all in. And then coach the heck out of them. 

I refuse to believe a single nescac program cannot be competitive if they follow this approach.


Colby

On paper you're premise makes a lot of sense. If all NESCAC schools and Football programs were the same it would have validity.

You are delusional if you think your Colby program operates the same way and has the same advantages as those at Trinity or Wesleyan. You need to look at the structure of those programs top to bottom to understand the difference.

Colby didnt lose to Trinity the last 5 years because they had an inferior coach. While that surely was a contributing factor you are painting all the NESCAC programs with the same brush and that just isn't the case. Many differences from Presidents to trustees, alumni pressure, faculty and admissions. Its not unlike any other college conference at any level. For a number of reasons its not the same everywhere, not that simple.

All the Ivies are the same aren't they......why can't Columbia win?

Much more to it than you've been able to gather during your tenure with the mules.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 11:05:29 pm by lumbercat »

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14502 on: September 16, 2018, 11:15:08 pm »

And one lil tidbit on HCOF Wells...when the Endicott job was open this past off season, Wells threw his hat in the ring and wanted to come back...the sticking point, his salary...Wells wanted Endicott to match his Bowdoin HCOF comp and apperantly they balked at that deal...apparently the grass may actually be greener at Bowdoin (in terms of $$$ anyway)...not sure when Wells contract is up at Bowdoin but we wouldnt be surprised at all to see him sail into the sunset at the end of his current contract...btw, there is not a shot in h*ll that Bowdoin fires him before the contract ends and eats any $$$...


Nescacman-

I don't buy that at all and I'm calling it fake news here on the board.

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14503 on: September 16, 2018, 11:25:01 pm »

And one lil tidbit on HCOF Wells...when the Endicott job was open this past off season, Wells threw his hat in the ring and wanted to come back...the sticking point, his salary...Wells wanted Endicott to match his Bowdoin HCOF comp and apperantly they balked at that deal...apparently the grass may actually be greener at Bowdoin (in terms of $$$ anyway)...not sure when Wells contract is up at Bowdoin but we wouldnt be surprised at all to see him sail into the sunset at the end of his current contract...btw, there is not a shot in h*ll that Bowdoin fires him before the contract ends and eats any $$$...


Nescacman-

I don't buy that at all and I'm calling it fake news here on the board.

It’s a fact according to our (excellent) sources...Wells wants out of Brunswick in the worst way....we know Boardsters don’t like to hear it but we break more real news than anyone else on this board from injuries to coaching changes to all-‘CAC teams....Question Lumber, why would we make that up anyway???

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #14504 on: September 16, 2018, 11:42:31 pm »
The same reason why you would get on the board and tout your prediction record (which isn't even against a spread). You're looking to be an insider. I enjoy your posts, very entertaining, but you have to stop making up stuff up.

I don't buy the Wells thing because I know some people involved very closely and I'm calling you out......I'm not looking for a name, Im looking for where you got your fake news. Post it here.