Pool C

[Marty Peretz]

Neither Hamilton nor St. Lawrence should get in. The quality of basketball in the Liberty League just isn't good enough to warrant it being a two big league, particularly at the expense of the NESCAC and UAA getting in only one. I'd put Deis in over Carnegie because, despite having a weaker overall record, they swept the season series and played a much tougher schedule overall. I think Amherst would beat Brandeis in a rematch if they played again, but am very curious to see what the committee will do. It really is a toss-up between those two clubs in my opinion. Amherst's late-season win over Middlebury figures to really help them. Deis did beat the Jeffs but lack a signature win other than that (and even that win isn't terribly signature since Amherst itself is on the bubble). If Deis could have pulled off the home win over Wash.U. and lost the same number of games (ie: dropping one of the games they ended up winning vs an inferior opponent) I'd consider them a lock, but 8 losses is a lot, even if they were mostly to respectable opponents. Record against tournament teams (as in teams who've already won their conference tournament): 0-3. Plus, they lost to WPI and Lasell. They beat RIC, Carnegie, and Amherst, but those are all bubble teams. Amherst has a better overall record and one significant win going for them. Amherst blew out Lasell but lost to RIC. Wow, this is really tough. I'm going to stop rambling because this is an incredibly hard decision, but I do think that in the east it should come down to these teams with respect to a Pool C bid.

[hugenerd]

Neither Hamilton nor St. Lawrence should get in. The quality of basketball in the Liberty League just isn't good enough to warrant it being a two big league, particularly at the expense of the NESCAC and UAA getting in only one. I'd put Deis in over Carnegie because, despite having a weaker overall record, they swept the season series and played a much tougher schedule overall. I think Amherst would beat Brandeis in a rematch if they played again, but am very curious to see what the committee will do. It really is a toss-up between those two clubs in my opinion. Amherst's late-season win over Middlebury figures to really help them. Deis did beat the Jeffs but lack a signature win other than that (and even that win isn't terribly signature since Amherst itself is on the bubble). If Deis could have pulled off the home win over Wash.U. and lost the same number of games (ie: dropping one of the games they ended up winning vs an inferior opponent) I'd consider them a lock, but 8 losses is a lot, even if they were mostly to respectable opponents. Record against tournament teams (as in teams who've already won their conference tournament): 0-3. Plus, they lost to WPI and Lasell. They beat RIC, Carnegie, and Amherst, but those are all bubble teams. Amherst has a better overall record and one significant win going for them. Amherst blew out Lasell but lost to RIC. Wow, this is really tough. I'm going to stop rambling because this is an incredibly hard decision, but I do think that in the east it should come down to these teams with respect to a Pool C bid.

Just one minor correction, you were discussing the northeast in terms of Pool C (Brandeis, Amherst, RIC, etc.)  LL teams are in the east (Hamilton, St. Lawrence).

[Hoops Fan]

Marty has a good point with Brandeis having two wins over Mellon.  I believe that is taken into consideration if they're on the table at the same time, isn't it?

[hugenerd]

Marty has a good point with Brandeis having two wins over Mellon.  I believe that is taken into consideration if they're on the table at the same time, isn't it?

If they are on the table at the same time it would.  If you go back a few pages on the UAA board its discussed in more depth.  CMU has a shot to get off the board before Brandeis gets on, though, but it depends if the committee takes CMU over RIC or Salem State, if they do, CMU would be off before Brandeis gets on.

[Hoops Fan]

Any chance we're going to get one of Abegg's numerical rundowns tonight?

[magicman]

Neither Hamilton nor St. Lawrence should get in. The quality of basketball in the Liberty League just isn't good enough to warrant it being a two big league, particularly at the expense of the NESCAC and UAA getting in only one. I'd put Deis in over Carnegie because, despite having a weaker overall record, they swept the season series and played a much tougher schedule overall. I think Amherst would beat Brandeis in a rematch if they played again, but am very curious to see what the committee will do. It really is a toss-up between those two clubs in my opinion. Amherst's late-season win over Middlebury figures to really help them. Deis did beat the Jeffs but lack a signature win other than that (and even that win isn't terribly signature since Amherst itself is on the bubble). If Deis could have pulled off the home win over Wash.U. and lost the same number of games (ie: dropping one of the games they ended up winning vs an inferior opponent) I'd consider them a lock, but 8 losses is a lot, even if they were mostly to respectable opponents. Record against tournament teams (as in teams who've already won their conference tournament): 0-3. Plus, they lost to WPI and Lasell. They beat RIC, Carnegie, and Amherst, but those are all bubble teams. Amherst has a better overall record and one significant win going for them. Amherst blew out Lasell but lost to RIC. Wow, this is really tough. I'm going to stop rambling because this is an incredibly hard decision, but I do think that in the east it should come down to these teams with respect to a Pool C bid.

Yeah, the quality of the Liberty League is terrible but St. Lawrence was good enough to beat NESCAC Champs, Middlebury 84-71 and they ain't no bubble team, And yet NESCAC could get 2 bids.

[pabegg]

Any chance we're going to get one of Abegg's numerical rundowns tonight?

By request, and remember that these are just estimates and do not reflect all of the selection criteria.

Reg Conf Rank Prior RPI    OWP    OOWP   School                    Natl Status      Reg Overall

NE  16   01   02    0.6259 0.5300 0.5270 Middlebury                004  A in        22-2 24-3
NE  13   02   03    0.6110 0.5167 0.5257 Mass-Dartmouth            010  A in        23-3 25-3
NE  17   03   01    0.6257 0.5643 0.5411 Worcester Polytech        013  C 4         20-4 20-5
NE  18   04   05    0.5878 0.4537 0.4823 Elms                      014  B 1         25-1 26-1
NE  13   05   04    0.6096 0.5467 0.5234 Rhode Island College      021  C 9         23-5 23-5
NE  14   06   07    0.6052 0.5297 0.5354 Bridgewater State         022  A in        19-4 20-6
NE  16   07   08    0.6013 0.5507 0.5438 Amherst                   031  C 15        19-6 21-6
NE  14   08   06    0.6081 0.5690 0.5249 Salem State               034  C 17        20-6 21-6
NE  11   09   09    0.5719 0.4717 0.4923 University of New England 037  A in        23-4 24-4
NE  17   10   11    0.5773 0.5038 0.5416 MIT                       042  A in        19-6 20-8
NE  90   11   12    0.5958 0.5841 0.5349 Brandeis                  050  C 23        17-8 17-8
NE  12   12   nr    0.5697 0.5131 0.5025 St. Joseph's (Maine)      051  A in        21-7 21-7
NE  16   13   10    0.5936 0.5951 0.5305 Bowdoin                   059  C 29        17-9 17-9

EA  21   01   01    0.6305 0.5339 0.5374 Ithaca                    003  C 1         22-2 24-2
EA  24   02   02    0.5953 0.5129 0.5135 Hamilton                  020  C 8         16-3 18-7
EA  24   03   03    0.6035 0.5755 0.5128 St. Lawrence              038  C 18        18-6 20-6
EA  21   04   04    0.5761 0.5673 0.5159 Utica                     067  C 35        17-9 17-9
EA  21   05   07    0.5852 0.5770 0.5346 Rochester Tech            070  A in        15-8 19-8
EA  61   06   08    0.5488 0.4892 0.4779 Medaille                  076  A in        17-6 21-6
EA  23   07   06    0.5506 0.4953 0.5035 Fredonia State            077              17-7 18-9
EA  90   08   05    0.5657 0.5452 0.5323 Rochester                 080              16-9 16-9

AT  32   01   01    0.6134 0.5152 0.5068 Richard Stockton          007  A in        22-2 25-2
AT  33   02   02    0.5939 0.5015 0.4837 SUNY-Farmingdale          015  C 5         24-3 24-3
AT  33   03   03    0.5754 0.4615 0.4940 St. Joseph's (L.I.)       027  A in        23-3 24-3
AT  31   04   05    0.5621 0.4622 0.4842 Baruch                    046  C 22        21-4 23-5
AT  32   05   06    0.5715 0.5201 0.5052 William Paterson          055  C 26        20-7 20-7
AT  32   06   04    0.5748 0.5363 0.4993 Montclair State           058  C 28        16-6 20-6
AT  31   07   07    0.5417 0.4323 0.4873 Brooklyn                  066  A in        22-5 23-5
AT  31   08   08    0.5141 0.4653 0.4859 Lehman                    126              16-9 18-9

MA  45   01   01    0.6031 0.5352 0.5345 Franklin and Marshall     019  C 7         21-5 22-5
MA  43   02   04    0.5825 0.5051 0.5122 DeSales                   028  A in        21-5 22-5
MA  41   03   02    0.5760 0.4755 0.4957 St. Mary's (Md.)          030  C 14        18-3 21-5
MA  42   04   03    0.5943 0.5303 0.5167 Widener                   033  A in        20-5 22-5
MA  44   05   06    0.5647 0.4648 0.4894 Gwynedd-Mercy             044  A in        21-4 22-5
MA  45   06   05    0.5832 0.5527 0.5318 McDaniel                  053  C 25        16-7 18-8
MA  46   07   07    0.5644 0.4997 0.4889 Scranton                  054  B 2         20-6 21-6
MA  45   08   08    0.5905 0.5686 0.5327 Gettysburg                057  A in        18-8 18-8
MA  41   09   09    0.5589 0.4902 0.4933 Wesley                    060  A in        16-5 18-9
MA  44   10   10    0.5489 0.4892 0.4765 Cabrini                   073              20-7 20-7
MA  46   11   11    0.5386 0.4847 0.4894 Susquehanna               090  B 5         16-7 18-8

SO  51   01   03    0.6068 0.5343 0.5125 Texas-Dallas              017  A in        22-4 24-4
SO  54   02   04    0.6137 0.5594 0.5100 Centre                    018  A in        19-4 23-4
SO  53   03   01    0.5828 0.4817 0.5108 Randolph-Macon            024  C 11        18-3 20-6
SO  54   04   02    0.5846 0.4946 0.5158 Trinity (Texas)           029  C 13        20-4 23-4
SO  53   05   05    0.5757 0.4958 0.5112 Guilford                  043  C 21        20-5 21-5
SO  55   06   08    0.5751 0.5152 0.4975 Averett                   047  A in        17-5 20-8
SO  51   07   09    0.5706 0.5289 0.5047 Mississippi College       052  C 24        18-7 20-7
SO  51   08   07    0.5580 0.4873 0.5073 McMurry                   063  C 32        18-6 19-8
SO  54   09   06    0.5626 0.5131 0.5100 DePauw                    065  C 34        15-6 19-7
SO  51   10   11    0.5612 0.5198 0.5015 Mary Hardin-Baylor        071  C 38        19-8 19-8
SO  55   11   10    0.5571 0.5133 0.5016 Christopher Newport       075              14-6 18-9

GL  64   01   02    0.6174 0.5369 0.5209 John Carroll              009  A in        21-3 23-4
GL  64   02   01    0.6095 0.5381 0.5156 Capital                   016  C 6         22-4 24-4
GL  63   03   04    0.5792 0.4870 0.5031 Wooster                   035  A in        21-4 22-6
GL  62   04   03    0.5785 0.4960 0.4984 Calvin                    039  C 19        14-3 19-8
GL  62   05   06    0.5827 0.5271 0.4988 Hope                      040  A in        14-4 21-7
GL  90   06   05    0.5918 0.5449 0.5273 Carnegie Mellon           041  C 20        15-5 19-6
GL  64   07   08    0.5577 0.5223 0.5196 Ohio Northern             081              16-8 18-9
GL  63   08   07    0.5480 0.4992 0.4979 Ohio Wesleyan             084              16-7 17-8
GL  61   09   09    0.5353 0.4870 0.4854 Penn State-Behrend        096              15-7 17-9

MW  90   01   01    0.6335 0.5390 0.5396 Washington U.             002  A in        22-2 23-2
MW  71   02   02    0.6590 0.5982 0.5702 Wheaton (Ill.)            006  A in        20-3 24-3
MW  72   03   03    0.6154 0.5479 0.5085 Transylvania              011  A in        18-3 21-5
MW  71   04   04    0.6250 0.5991 0.5609 Elmhurst                  032  C 16        20-7 20-7
MW  74   05   09    0.5655 0.5005 0.5011 Lawrence                  049  A in        19-6 19-6
MW  71   06   06    0.5824 0.5409 0.5679 Augustana                 061  C 30        17-8 18-8
MW  71   07   05    0.6108 0.6241 0.5588 North Central             062  C 31        14-8 16-10
MW  74   08   07    0.5520 0.4835 0.5017 St. Norbert               072              17-6 18-6
MW  74   09   10    0.5544 0.5050 0.4931 Grinnell                  074              15-6 18-7
MW  74   10   08    0.5580 0.5283 0.5089 Carroll                   078              16-8 16-8
MW  71   11   nr    0.5628 0.5285 0.5578 Millikin                  086              14-8 16-9

WE  82   01   01    0.6357 0.5117 0.5193 St. Thomas                001  A in        26-0 27-0
WE  83   02   02    0.6183 0.4914 0.5360 Puget Sound               005  C 2         21-1 24-3
WE  86   03   03    0.6501 0.6007 0.5528 UW-Stevens Point          008  A in        22-4 23-4
WE  86   04   04    0.6221 0.5607 0.5594 UW-Whitewater             012  C 3         21-5 22-5
WE  86   05   06    0.6246 0.5820 0.5616 UW-Platteville            023  C 10        17-5 22-5
WE  81   06   05    0.5786 0.4657 0.5133 Buena Vista               025  C 12        20-3 23-3
WE  83   07   07    0.5927 0.5304 0.5184 Whitworth                 036  A in        19-5 22-5
WE  84   08   08    0.5662 0.4781 0.4827 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps    045  A in        19-4 21-6
WE  81   09   10    0.5711 0.5096 0.5049 Cornell                   048  A in        19-6 21-6
WE  82   10   09    0.5691 0.5261 0.5041 Bethel                    056  C 27        18-7 20-7
WE  89   11   nr    0.5132 0.3529 0.4972 Chapman                   089  B 4         17-3 24-3


Reg        Region
Conf       Conference number
Rank      Regional ranking
Prior       Prior regional ranking
School
Natl     National ranking based on regional results
Status
    B + number: Pool B ranking (top 4 in tournament)
    C + number: Pool C ranking of 18 teams in tournament
    C second: second tier Pool C (spots 19-28)
    C third: third tier Pool C (spots 29-38)
    A in: clinched Pool A bid
    blank: lower level Pool C

[oldchap]

By request, and remember that these are just estimates and do not reflect all of the selection criteria.

Question:

I assume that B3 is Maryville. Why is it not in your estimate?

[pabegg]

By request, and remember that these are just estimates and do not reflect all of the selection criteria.

Question:

I assume that B3 is Maryville. Why is it not in your estimate?

Not in the South's top 11

[Marty Peretz]

How is it determined which pods get 7 teams and which get 8? And why don't they just go to 64 teams with 8 in a pod? Sorry, I'm still an amateur with the d3 selection criteria (and in some ways, suspect I always will be)

[Marty Peretz]

One last thing...

The pool c's aren't decided according to region, correct? As in, it's just the top 18 remaining teams from anywhere in the country that are selected?

[Pat Coleman]

How is it determined which pods get 7 teams and which get 8? And why don't they just go to 64 teams with 8 in a pod? Sorry, I'm still an amateur with the d3 selection criteria (and in some ways, suspect I always will be)

Well, there is one tournament spot for every 6.5 teams that sponsor the sport. That's why -- we don't have 64*6.5 teams playing Division III men's basketball.

[Just Bill]

One last thing...

The pool c's aren't decided according to region, correct? As in, it's just the top 18 remaining teams from anywhere in the country that are selected?

Correct.

[scottiedawg]

Using Massey's MOV ratings:

Top-Left Bracket (AVG=54.73)
10. John Carroll
14. UT Dallas
15. Capital
20. Centre
21. Transylvania
30. Wooster
35. Guilford
40. Carnegie Mellon
49. Maryville
57. Trinity
65. Averett
70. Gettysburg
116. Brockport St.
118. Thomas More
161. Medaille

Bottom-Left Bracket (AVG=26.07)
1. UW Stevens Point
2. St. Thomas
3. Wheaton
4. Puget Sound
5. UW Whitewater
6. UW Platteville
7. Whitworth
8. Lawrence
9. Elmhurst
11. Washington U
36. Cornell
42. Hope
50. Claremont Mudd Scripps
59. Aurora
148. Fontbonne

Top-Right Bracket (AVG=91.73)
18. Richard Stockton
24. Middlebury
41. RIC
45. Elms
51. Amherst
63. Bridgewater MA
78. Farmingdale
84. St. Lawrence
97. Brooklyn
102. MIT
133. U of New England
138. Gwynedd-Mercy
157. SUNYIT
158. St. Joseph's ME
187. RPI

Top-Right Bracket (AVG=93.2)
22. UMD
23. Ithaca
26. Brandeis
56. Widener
62. VA Wesleyan
71. Salem St
72. WPI
83. F&M
90. St. Joseph's LI
91. Scranton
114. Baruch
123. Rochester Tech
134. DeSales
183. Wesley
248. Husson

I realize that the nature of D3 makes proximity a huge, huge issue.  I also realize that the Massey MOV ratings are NOT the selection criteria.  However, a little bit more parity could be desired.  If I'm WashU, Wheaton, UWP, UWSP, UWW, Puget Sound, or St. Thomas, I think I have a right to be disgruntled


Edited to add Wooster

[LogShow]

That is a TRUE statement!