Author Topic: MBB: NEWMAC  (Read 516562 times)

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3600 on: March 11, 2018, 01:01:44 pm »
Can anyone tell me where a video replay is available for the MIT-Ramapo game?  Thanks.

It may not be available. NCAA/Turner has weird rules about this. Some schools are are ignoring them willingly or unknowingly. You might find it on Ramapo's website, but I am not positive.

Real tough way to lose for MIT. They call a foul on a rebound with 0.9 s left in a tie game with Ramapo in the bonus.

I don't believe I have ever seen a non-shooting foul call with 0.9 sec left in a game before.  Ever.

To be fair, it was a shooting foul call. Mosely grabbed the rebound and knowing time was expiring threw up a prayer to try and beat the clock. Not unexpected and certainly not with the mentality of drawing a shooting foul call. From what I could see, it looked like he was being pushed out of bounds. If people want calls during the game, they have to also expect and see them at the end of games. I have seen plenty of calls in the final seconds. I applaud officials who call them because they don't alter how they call a game based on the clock.

BTW - you can tell it was a shooting foul because Mosely took two FTs and the first one no one contested (if my memory is right). MIT had not committed enough fouls for a double-bonus.

I saw the game and Moseley was driving towards the basket while three MIT players converged on him and someone got called for the foul before he got to the hoop.

As far as the last second shot, the pass was just over the half court and the MIT player did not get control of the ball totally and it fell to the court as time expired.  A shot was never attempted.

MIT should certainly be a favorite for the final four next year.  If my nephew gets into the school, I will certainly be a HUGE fan of them for the next four years. ;)

Moseley was driving? Bonacum took the final shot. Did I miss the pass to Bonacum? I was monitoring many games and was watching that, but maybe I misremembered how it ended. The foul was called on Bonacum's missed shot, Moseley getting the rebound and putting up a prayer from the baseline.

MIT's player seemed to get the ball clean and take the shot before the buzzer expired... but the camera operator turned into a fan and forgot to do their job, so hard to truly say what happened or how close the shot came. There was no video review available (something that needs to change in this weekend of the tournament IMO), so it would have been on the refs shoulders to call that without assistance (outside of the fourth official at the table).

MIT will certainly be a favorite for something... I think many schools have proven over time that just because you get back loaded doesn't mean a final four is even close to guaranteed. Actually... last time MIT made the final four, they returned the entire squad and did not have the same season (thanks to lingering injuries).
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Offline TheOsprey

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3601 on: March 11, 2018, 01:20:17 pm »
Your right, Dave.  I should have said I was watching the feed.  And I do remember your version, it was difficult to see the foul from the feed, but it looked like Moseley was taking it to the hoop and I saw the ball coming out as he was going up.

I still believed that the MIT player fumbled the inbound pass or it was partially deflected.  If he threw it up, time should have expired before he got it off.  I'm going to try to find the replay.

I found a short clip(9 sec.)on APP.--  Asbury Park Press, however, it does not show the last shot attempt.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 01:42:44 pm by TheOsprey »

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3602 on: March 11, 2018, 02:41:19 pm »
Your right, Dave.  I should have said I was watching the feed.  And I do remember your version, it was difficult to see the foul from the feed, but it looked like Moseley was taking it to the hoop and I saw the ball coming out as he was going up.

I still believed that the MIT player fumbled the inbound pass or it was partially deflected.  If he threw it up, time should have expired before he got it off.  I'm going to try to find the replay.

I found a short clip(9 sec.)on APP.--  Asbury Park Press, however, it does not show the last shot attempt.

By rule, if no one touched the ball until the shooter touched it and it was clean, time would not have expired by the time he shot it.

If it was touched prior or fumbled, yeah I suspect time would have expired. I would have to watch the video again to confirm.

There were a couple of mis-allowed, it appears, buzzer beaters on the women's side this weekend. Didn't see any problems on the men's side this weekend.
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Offline rlk

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3603 on: March 11, 2018, 10:39:46 pm »
MIT will certainly be a favorite for something... I think many schools have proven over time that just because you get back loaded doesn't mean a final four is even close to guaranteed. Actually... last time MIT made the final four, they returned the entire squad and did not have the same season (thanks to lingering injuries).

IIRC Noel Hollingsworth and Jamie Karraker were playing with chronic stress injuries in their feet and had surgery in the offseason to fix them.  Unfortunately, neither was ever able to return.  Billy Bender also graduated, so in essence, MIT returned only two starters (Mitch Kates and Will Tashman).
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3604 on: March 11, 2018, 11:08:16 pm »
MIT will certainly be a favorite for something... I think many schools have proven over time that just because you get back loaded doesn't mean a final four is even close to guaranteed. Actually... last time MIT made the final four, they returned the entire squad and did not have the same season (thanks to lingering injuries).

IIRC Noel Hollingsworth and Jamie Karraker were playing with chronic stress injuries in their feet and had surgery in the offseason to fix them.  Unfortunately, neither was ever able to return.  Billy Bender also graduated, so in essence, MIT returned only two starters (Mitch Kates and Will Tashman).

They were both injured, but I do not remember them having the same injury in the feet. I think one had that and the other had something going on with his knee? Or at least further up the leg. But yes, they were unable to recover basically from the injuries (which they played on the entire previous season) and subsequent surgeries.
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Offline rlk

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3605 on: March 12, 2018, 08:39:52 am »
MIT will certainly be a favorite for something... I think many schools have proven over time that just because you get back loaded doesn't mean a final four is even close to guaranteed. Actually... last time MIT made the final four, they returned the entire squad and did not have the same season (thanks to lingering injuries).

IIRC Noel Hollingsworth and Jamie Karraker were playing with chronic stress injuries in their feet and had surgery in the offseason to fix them.  Unfortunately, neither was ever able to return.  Billy Bender also graduated, so in essence, MIT returned only two starters (Mitch Kates and Will Tashman).

They were both injured, but I do not remember them having the same injury in the feet. I think one had that and the other had something going on with his knee? Or at least further up the leg. But yes, they were unable to recover basically from the injuries (which they played on the entire previous season) and subsequent surgeries.

I thought they were both foot-related (although I could be wrong), and both chronic issues, although not the same.  I don't remember the exact details, though, but the relevant effect was that neither was ever able to suit up in 2012-2013.
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Offline nescac1

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3606 on: March 12, 2018, 10:23:58 am »
Congratulations to Springfield on making the Final Four!  From a Williams fan perspective, the Pride have long been a tough rival of Williams and have had many talented teams, but I don't think anyone saw this coming.  Especially early in the season when Springfield got beaten badly in three straight games vs. NESCAC squads (including Williams).  I do feel like something was bothering Ross in those games, however -- he just didn't seem like his usually-unstoppable, hyper-athletic self.  Springfield obviously figured some things out as the year went along.  They will be a big underdog at Salem but this year, it's clear that anything is possible, especially when they likely have the best remaining individual player in the tourney.  It's also cool that the birthplace of basketball is finally represented at a Final Four!

As for Ross vs. Flannery, that's a tough call.  I thought Ross was better as an underclassman than Flannery but Flannery made massive strides in his game over his four years at Babson.  Ross while a tiny bit shorter is stronger, tougher on the inside, and more athletic than Flannery in my view.  I believe Ross has more upside as a player, actually, but he's not QUITE yet at the ridiculous level Flannery achieved as a senior, so the question is whether he will continue to improve, especially as a three point and foul shooter, where he has the most room to grow.  It's hard to have a "better" career than Flannery, who was only national player of the year and led his team to a national title plus another Final Four, but Ross will have two all-American selections, a national rookie of the year (Flannery didn't earn that, but to be fair, no one would have beaten out Duncan Robinson) honor, and a Final Four with I'd say less talent around him than any of Flannery's Babson teams on his resume in his first two years.  If healthy I'd say he is a lock to be a four-time all-American and should win at least one player of the year honor.

Ross is on pace for over 2670 (!) career points, 1000 career rebounds, 400 career assists, and 200 career steals.  I can't imagine very many players in D3 can come close to touching those numbers, historically.  Flannery finished with 2620, 779, 296 and 151, so if he keeps going at this pace and stays healthy, Ross will eclipse him in every category.   In sum, if I was picking one to start a team with, I'd go (barely) with Ross. 

Congrats also to MIT on a very impressive year.  With no seniors graduating, coming so close to the Final Four despite having some bad injury luck, and a loaded senior class, MIT will certainly be one of the lead contenders for next year's pre-season top five.  I'd also put Augustana, Williams, Platteville, Illinois Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Hamilton, Whitworth and Whitman into that conversation.  Depending on what happens this weekend, Nebraska Wesleyan and Oshkosh I'm guessing are locks for the two preseason favorites since both only lose one player of consequence to graduation. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 10:27:23 am by nescac1 »

Offline Mike Rejniak

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3607 on: March 12, 2018, 11:20:19 am »
​Dear D3 Faithful ;D,
     I have read many of your posts throughout the years and even met some of you in person, but for those who I havenít met, let me introduce myself: my name is Michael Rejniak and I have spent over 14 years coaching Division 3 basketball and love what our division has done and continues to do for  the sport of basketball. One of the greatest things about Division 3 basketball is the brotherhood that we all have with one another (coaches and players alike). My wish is to showcase the talents of D3 on a national stage in The Basketball Tournament (TBT).  You may have heard me speak about this on the Hoopsville Marathon with Dave McHugh of D3hoops.com (at the 6:11 mark). The TBT is a national tournament that is televised in July/August on ESPN after the NBA season is over. My goal is to put forth an all-star D3 team (current players are ineligible) and have them compete in this tournament to take on Former D1 / semi-pro's to prove that D3 deserves the same respect as other NCAA divisions. The team is mostly complete with former student-athletes from all over the country competing. Once the roster is complete we will be sure to release it through d3hoops. Former Babson College National Champion Matthew Droney '17 will also be assisting me on this journey.

How YOU can help our former elite D3 basketball players

While the end prize of this tournament is a monetary prize, being a D3-lifer, the goal is not the money (we all know that's not why we get into coaching), the goal is to bring an end to the stigma of Division 3 basketball, an awareness of how talented our student-athletes are and that we can compete (and win) against the best. We do need to raise funds for an entry fee, travel, meal and housing expenses for the athletes. In order to do this, we are conducting a crowd-funding campaign through GoFundMe to help make this a reality. These athletes need your support! Just think -- if every Division 3 school donated just $10, we will have raised over $4,000!!!! The link to the GoFundMe Page is below and please SPREAD THE WORD and email me with any questions/concerns at WeAreD3TBT@gmail.com. Thank you in advance for your support and Dave and I look forward to this "D3 Dream Team" taking the court this summer.-Mike Rejniak

Support "We Are D3" In The TBT

Offline Hugenerd

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3608 on: March 12, 2018, 12:35:54 pm »
Can anyone tell me where a video replay is available for the MIT-Ramapo game?  Thanks.

It may not be available. NCAA/Turner has weird rules about this. Some schools are are ignoring them willingly or unknowingly. You might find it on Ramapo's website, but I am not positive.

Real tough way to lose for MIT. They call a foul on a rebound with 0.9 s left in a tie game with Ramapo in the bonus.

I don't believe I have ever seen a non-shooting foul call with 0.9 sec left in a game before.  Ever.

To be fair, it was a shooting foul call. Mosely grabbed the rebound and knowing time was expiring threw up a prayer to try and beat the clock. Not unexpected and certainly not with the mentality of drawing a shooting foul call. From what I could see, it looked like he was being pushed out of bounds. If people want calls during the game, they have to also expect and see them at the end of games. I have seen plenty of calls in the final seconds. I applaud officials who call them because they don't alter how they call a game based on the clock.

BTW - you can tell it was a shooting foul because Mosely took two FTs and the first one no one contested (if my memory is right). MIT had not committed enough fouls for a double-bonus.

I saw the game and Moseley was driving towards the basket while three MIT players converged on him and someone got called for the foul before he got to the hoop.

As far as the last second shot, the pass was just over the half court and the MIT player did not get control of the ball totally and it fell to the court as time expired.  A shot was never attempted.

MIT should certainly be a favorite for the final four next year.  If my nephew gets into the school, I will certainly be a HUGE fan of them for the next four years. ;)

Moseley was driving? Bonacum took the final shot. Did I miss the pass to Bonacum? I was monitoring many games and was watching that, but maybe I misremembered how it ended. The foul was called on Bonacum's missed shot, Moseley getting the rebound and putting up a prayer from the baseline.

MIT's player seemed to get the ball clean and take the shot before the buzzer expired... but the camera operator turned into a fan and forgot to do their job, so hard to truly say what happened or how close the shot came. There was no video review available (something that needs to change in this weekend of the tournament IMO), so it would have been on the refs shoulders to call that without assistance (outside of the fourth official at the table).

MIT will certainly be a favorite for something... I think many schools have proven over time that just because you get back loaded doesn't mean a final four is even close to guaranteed. Actually... last time MIT made the final four, they returned the entire squad and did not have the same season (thanks to lingering injuries).

Dave, agree that they called it a shooting foul during the game. However, it seemed to be essentially a continuation call, as he appeared to  "shoot" from behind the backboard and the contact I could see from watching online was mainly while going after the rebound (you could see reaction from MIT players on court in surprise when it was called a 2 shot foul). I understand your point on consistency, but to decide a game on a borderline call like that (which, as a ref, you know will decide the game with <1sec), didnt do justice to a game that was so closely competed.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3609 on: March 12, 2018, 12:36:50 pm »
Again... if it was a foul, they are shooting at least one free throw anyway. They were in the bonus. He hit the free throw, second on the way as well.

I am not sure the nature of the call really changed the outcome, here.
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Offline BaboNation

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3610 on: March 12, 2018, 12:56:31 pm »
Jake Ross or Joey Flannery. Who will end up having a better career?

Both amazing NEWMAC players, curious to see what you all think?

I suppose, being a Babson alum I should recuse myself, but what the heck ...

I'm a HUGE Ross fan, and I'd guess I'm rooting as hard for Ross, Springfield, and the NEWMAC as just about anyone.

I've mentioned this before, but Flannery's career at Babson really spanned two distinct offenses.  In his first 2 years the pace was much slower and the offense deferred to "the bigs", dumping the ball inside to Wickey and Mack.  Those guys essentially needed to be in the paint to score.  By his junior season Nelson and Jacks replaced Wickey and Mack, but you often saw either of them in the high post or above the arc, freeing room inside for Flannery.  The spread offense of interchangeable parts became much more of what most teams employ today.
Flannery's sophomore team (that lost in the Final 4) averaged "only" 68.4 per game.  This year's Springfield team (Ross as sophomore) averages 77.4.   Babson's offense averaged in the low 80's in Flannery's junior and senior seasons.
 From a strictly stat perspective Ross will surpass Flannery.  He also has the ball in his hands a lot more.  I'd like him to get his a/to ratio better and lower his dribble, but that's nitpicking.  He's often asked to run the offense even though ideally he's a shooting guard.
Ross is better at setting and coming off picks.  That's where he shines.  He also has a slightly quicker release.
Flannery was better at working off ball screens, especially taking it in a set offense all the way from the arc to the hoop.  Ross may still get to that level, which is what you need when you are "the guy" with the ball in his hands in the last few seconds and being asked to "create something".
Through their respective sophomore seasons - too close to call.

Offline BaboNation

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3611 on: March 12, 2018, 01:19:07 pm »
Again... if it was a foul, they are shooting at least one free throw anyway. They were in the bonus. He hit the free throw, second on the way as well.

I am not sure the nature of the call really changed the outcome, here.

I agree.   Count me in the camp of calling the game the same way for 40 minutes.   If all teams understood that would be the case they wouldn't take advantage of things in the waning minutes ... not that it was the case in this game.

I feel bad for Nwana.  Enters the game for the first time on the final possession and gets the foul called on him.

If I were to argue a foul that should have been called it would have been on the play that resulted in Forsythe's injury, and not because the injury occurred.   But I don't want to argue fouls.

I'll be shocked if this MIT team is not back in the tournament next year.   In addition to all juniors returning they'll have Forsythe and Hinkley.  Hinkley reminds me a lot of Comenale at Babson - a deadly, fearless, spot-up shooter.

Offline BaboNation

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3612 on: March 12, 2018, 01:35:01 pm »
Congratulations to Springfield on making the Final Four!  From a Williams fan perspective, the Pride have long been a tough rival of Williams and have had many talented teams, but I don't think anyone saw this coming.  Especially early in the season when Springfield got beaten badly in three straight games vs. NESCAC squads (including Williams).  I do feel like something was bothering Ross in those games, however -- he just didn't seem like his usually-unstoppable, hyper-athletic self.  Springfield obviously figured some things out as the year went along.  They will be a big underdog at Salem but this year, it's clear that anything is possible, especially when they likely have the best remaining individual player in the tourney.  It's also cool that the birthplace of basketball is finally represented at a Final Four!



Springfield's worst loss this season was a game at Babson that was never close.  Ross had 10 turnovers in that game (I looked it up).  Although Coach Brock might not admit it if asked, I think they were asking Ross to do too much.  In addition to being the go to guy they were also asking him to take the ball upcourt and get them into their offense on nearly every possession.  Now the load is shared more and he's fresher.

Offline WPI89

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3613 on: March 12, 2018, 02:13:45 pm »
Not as surprises as some of our "guests" on the board seem to be.  Depends on which trend you want to look at.  The team that lost 5 in a row in December (wonder how many final 4 teams have ever lost 5 games in a row?), or the team that won 12 of its last 13 before the NEWMAC tourney?  I guess it seems the latter.

I watched all 3 WPI games this year and most of their late game against Babson, and felt Ross gave them a punchers chance to at least get to the sweet 16.  First "surprise" to me was Swarthmore (based on being home and how they were playing).


Offline Hugenerd

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Re: MBB: NEWMAC
« Reply #3614 on: March 12, 2018, 02:39:16 pm »
Again... if it was a foul, they are shooting at least one free throw anyway. They were in the bonus. He hit the free throw, second on the way as well.

I am not sure the nature of the call really changed the outcome, here.

Agree with you that that nature of the foul call had no impact on the game in retrospect, given he made both (including the second one, which he was trying to miss). However, the call in general obviously had a very big impact in deciding the outcome of the game.

Anyone is free to disagree with me, but I still believe that in any game, I hate to see it decided like that. Foul was still a borderline call in my opinion, would much rather see a game end on a team executing the play then a ref making a close call in the final second.