Author Topic: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference  (Read 1883920 times)

Offline hopefan

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16770 on: August 19, 2019, 11:30:14 pm »
A little Technical foul due diligence.....

      gc  techs      opp techs
            
2018-19      26      14                                                      w-l    17-9       14-4
2017-18      9      11                                                     w-l     19-9       14-4
2016-17      16      7                                                        w-l     21-5      14-4
2015-16      10      2       first year of system                    w-l     13-13     12-6
            
2014-15      3      5       pre system                                 w-l    13-12     10-8
2013-14      2      5                                                        w-l    15-10    11-7

FOR GREENVILLE, pretty obvious that the system generates wins..... and technical fouls
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:46:23 am by hopefan »
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16771 on: August 19, 2019, 11:54:14 pm »

I wonder if you can figure those numbers per possession?  They may still be a little higher, but I'm guessing those first three years will be closer to the pre-system numbers if you extrapolate that out.
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Offline hopefan

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16772 on: August 20, 2019, 05:44:39 am »
another number that was seen...

Grinnell 2018-19

Grinnell techs... 4   Grinnell opponents techs....16

another arrow pointed at Greenville, not just the system....
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Offline hopefan

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16773 on: August 20, 2019, 05:57:35 am »
I'll also point out that if the situation hadn't drawn the attention of SLIAC administrators during the regular season last year, Greenville's actions in the conference tourney semi was the final straw... in losing to Eureka, 6 different Greenville individuals drew technicals... a real debacle... I'd have to think that at that point, the sliac brass said there has to be something done by the league, because THIS IS OUT OF CONTROL

I should note that Eureka had 2 technicals in that game too
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 06:00:44 am by hopefan »
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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16774 on: August 20, 2019, 09:58:18 am »
I have thought more about technicals in the last 24 hours than I have during the entire rest of my life.

It is really interesting.

I can remember be on the edge of my seat for the entire regular season match-up between Greenville and Webster.  It would be interesting to run a counterfactual that involved a group of officials working only system games for a few seasons and then working the Greenville games.

Does the intensity of the game change the way officials call it?

Is it possible to find patterns as to when the technicals are called?  Early in the game, late in the game, etc.

So many things to consider...

Offline y_jack_lok

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16775 on: August 20, 2019, 12:46:27 pm »
I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that a good number of technicals that get called are for expletives uttered as a result of being charged with a personal foul. Since the System lends itself to foul calls, if the charged player coild simply avoid reacting the technicals would not get called.

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16776 on: August 20, 2019, 01:08:28 pm »
I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that a good number of technicals that get called are for expletives uttered as a result of being charged with a personal foul. Since the System lends itself to foul calls, if the charged player coild simply avoid reacting the technicals would not get called.

If that's the case, then it's just a lack of discipline. Again, I'd like to know in what situations these techs are called. Fouling too hard, after the whistle, swearing etc...of course, all of those could be a lack of discipline.
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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16777 on: August 20, 2019, 01:15:53 pm »
I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that a good number of technicals that get called are for expletives uttered as a result of being charged with a personal foul. Since the System lends itself to foul calls, if the charged player coild simply avoid reacting the technicals would not get called.

It would be interesting to research the ways in which the game is different for both the players and the officials.  For example, the mental and physical fatigue that comes with the additional time spent on defense.  Especially for the officials who do not get to sub-in, sub-out with the breaks.  Interesting for me anyway.

Ultimately, 26 technicals is a crazy number even if you factor out the 6 technicals in the final game of the season.  20 technicals in 25 games.  That is still crazy.

Offline GU1999

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16778 on: August 20, 2019, 03:01:38 pm »
My thoughts when viewing this stat that Grinnell's opponents having 16 Ts in games against them may indicate that the System and it double the amount of conflict points does cause there to be an inflated amount of Ts?  It may also mean that Grinnell has figured out how to not get T's despite having many more System related conflict points in a game while their opponents have not figured it out yet?   

For fun, three of the Grinnell opponent T's were courtesy of the "bad boys" up in Eureka.   :o

another number that was seen...

Grinnell 2018-19

Grinnell techs... 4   Grinnell opponents techs....16

another arrow pointed at Greenville, not just the system....

Offline GU1999

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16779 on: August 20, 2019, 03:02:26 pm »
I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that a good number of technicals that get called are for expletives uttered as a result of being charged with a personal foul. Since the System lends itself to foul calls, if the charged player coild simply avoid reacting the technicals would not get called.

Agree - I think that this will be cleaned up next year.

Offline GU1999

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16780 on: August 20, 2019, 03:03:21 pm »
So Hope, you agree that this is "Greenville Rule"? 

I'll also point out that if the situation hadn't drawn the attention of SLIAC administrators during the regular season last year, Greenville's actions in the conference tourney semi was the final straw... in losing to Eureka, 6 different Greenville individuals drew technicals... a real debacle... I'd have to think that at that point, the sliac brass said there has to be something done by the league, because THIS IS OUT OF CONTROL

I should note that Eureka had 2 technicals in that game too

Offline hopefan

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16781 on: August 20, 2019, 04:02:54 pm »
So Hope, you agree that this is "Greenville Rule"?

I'll also point out that if the situation hadn't drawn the attention of SLIAC administrators during the regular season last year, Greenville's actions in the conference tourney semi was the final straw... in losing to Eureka, 6 different Greenville individuals drew technicals... a real debacle... I'd have to think that at that point, the sliac brass said there has to be something done by the league, because THIS IS OUT OF CONTROL

I should note that Eureka had 2 technicals in that game too

Absolutely.... if Greenvile doesn't carry on like they did this past season, I don't think the whole thing comes crashing down.... the only caveat might be if another team has a similar experience in another sport that may also have pushed administrators in this direction.  The behavior of the program has changed radically in the last 4 years, and obviously was totally unacceptable this past season....I won't throw out specific player's names (there are 3 or 4 I could mention), but just as disturbing were the histrionics coming from the coach's box, plus the fact that there seemed to be no repercussions for the player's actions.... I gotta call it as I've seen it, just like I did at the Grinnell game 3 years ago....
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Offline GU1999

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16782 on: August 20, 2019, 06:09:05 pm »
One additional thought on this and I am done. 

I do think that the high number of contact points plays a part in there being more T's assessed in system based games.  The stats I/ve seen so far would bear that out. 

In addition to this, I do think that there is an increased possibility for unsportsmanlike T's.  The type of T that results from taunting or other behaviors include vulgarity, taunting and baiting.  The GU press is 100% passion and hype.  Guys are flying around everywhere.   If successful, there will be a live ball turnover that results in a dunk (or quick made 3).  This is where I think that a team like GU and the way the play the System may lead to more potential Ts.  The point man on the press plays hard on the in bounder and every game there are tens of examples where a steal or break away score ends in a contested play at the rim at full speed which is immediately followed by an over the top harassing "point defender" rushing into the personal space of the inbounder. 
Frankly, the inbounder may very well the dude who just got dunked on.  There are many times where the scene of guys getting to their positions is a bit chaotic and physically personal.  Emotions are high. When you have a guy dunking and then trained to run at the inbounder, as opposed to turning and running away from him back to his defensive half,  it only seems logical that there will be a handful of times during a season where there will be a confrontation in that mix which results in words exchanged which may be perceived as taunting, rightly or wrongly. 

So, although not THE reason, it is a reason for a potentially higher number of Ts assessed to a System team. 

The Greenville Rule clearly has an effect on the GU team that will be disproportionate to the other teams based on style of play.  How knows, maybe it is a secondary or tertiary desire of the rule makers to get GU to change styles.  Who knows.  I'd predict that GU keeps playing the System.  I predict that GU keeps winning with the System.

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16783 on: August 20, 2019, 08:39:06 pm »
The type of T that results from taunting or other behaviors include vulgarity, taunting and baiting.  The GU press is 100% passion and hype.  Guys are flying around everywhere.   

I agree with this and this was part of my previous point.

The Greenville Rule clearly has an effect on the GU team that will be disproportionate to the other teams based on style of play.  How knows, maybe it is a secondary or tertiary desire of the rule makers to get GU to change styles.  Who knows.

I disagree with this.

Remember, the new rule would have affected Greenville two of the four seasons of System-style play and in one case, they violated the rule by a mere 3 technicals.

Maybe this should be called the "Greenville 2018-2019 Rule."

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Re: MBB: St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #16784 on: August 23, 2019, 03:14:23 pm »