Poll

What Conference will St. Thomas go to next?

Summit
2 (2.7%)
Poineer
10 (13.5%)
NSIC
19 (25.7%)
WIAC
40 (54.1%)
ARC
3 (4.1%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Voting closes: June 05, 2019, 04:22:03 pm

Author Topic: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference  (Read 8301203 times)

Offline wif

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: +29/-5
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92400 on: May 14, 2019, 04:58:22 pm »
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/25776964/insurance-market-football-evaporating-causing-major-threat-nfl-pop-warner-colleges-espn

SJU football, the MIAC and D3 football in general have been a big part of my life for over 30 years. The sport of football in general, and SJU football specifically, has given me a lot (thanks John), and has hopefully made me a better person overall.

Somewhat lost in the shuffle of all of this kick St. Thomas out of the league situation is the growing struggle football as a viable sport seems to be facing. I know it has been touched on by those on this site (high school participation rates, attendance, etc..). The article I have inserted above certainly doesn't paint a good picture in terms of insurance liability coverage and concerns, which can be added to the challenges facing those administering football programs. I'm not crying wolf or saying the sky is falling tomorrow, but perhaps certain institutions are reading the tea leaves in such a way that have led them to the conclusion that A;) Getting crushed every week on the football field is unacceptable, and B;) the investment/commitment needed to change the competitive situation doesn't make long term sense in light of what one could argue is a shaky future for football as an accepted athletic pursuit.

Online miac952

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 615
  • Karma: +200/-103
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92401 on: May 14, 2019, 05:01:57 pm »
I wonder how recruiting is going at St. Olaf.  That's got to be fun to answer questions from recruits/parents about the recent happenings.
Recruiting to St. Thomas has to be way more difficult right now.  They're recruiting players for a future scholarship team without scholarships.  When current recruits work their way up the depth chart after a couple years, the scholarship players will start to roll in and take over.  I guess you could say in 2 years maybe we'll have a 25% scholarship for you if you're good enough.
Not many of the football scholarships at D2 are full scholarships. Most are far below full, especially in the NSIC. Someone here knows the limit but for some reason I recall the NSIC allows less per team than other D2 conferences*. Back when the earth cooled and I had a short stint at UMD some of the Scholarships were $800.

*Now I see the NSIC can offer the full amount as of this year; 36 full scholarships but they have to be split up between the entire roster of deserving players. $1,000 here $1,500 there and a full scholly to a few players.

Spot on OldAuggie. Donít think much has changed in that time actually.

The only thing I would add is that while the NSIC allow the full amount of scholarships, many schools in the NSIC donít ďfully fundĒ their teams up tot he max amount. I donít think CSP or Northern State are playing with a full deck, when compared to Mankato or Winona. Sound familiar  :D(different level - same problems). This was part of the reason St Cloud went down the path it did in looking to cut a couple sports a few years ago. They preferred to get as close to fully funding some sports vs. handicapping a wider number of teams.

Offline wm4

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: +133/-37
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92402 on: May 14, 2019, 06:20:22 pm »
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/25776964/insurance-market-football-evaporating-causing-major-threat-nfl-pop-warner-colleges-espn

SJU football, the MIAC and D3 football in general have been a big part of my life for over 30 years. The sport of football in general, and SJU football specifically, has given me a lot (thanks John), and has hopefully made me a better person overall.

Somewhat lost in the shuffle of all of this kick St. Thomas out of the league situation is the growing struggle football as a viable sport seems to be facing. I know it has been touched on by those on this site (high school participation rates, attendance, etc..). The article I have inserted above certainly doesn't paint a good picture in terms of insurance liability coverage and concerns, which can be added to the challenges facing those administering football programs. I'm not crying wolf or saying the sky is falling tomorrow, but perhaps certain institutions are reading the tea leaves in such a way that have led them to the conclusion that A;) Getting crushed every week on the football field is unacceptable, and B;) the investment/commitment needed to change the competitive situation doesn't make long term sense in light of what one could argue is a shaky future for football as an accepted athletic pursuit.

Very fair to consider these very real factors.  It remains to be seen what football will look like 10-20 years from now.  That said, if certain MIAC institutions are reading the tea leaves as you describe, perhaps they should just consider dropping sponsorship of football vs. kicking out those who've made investments and gotten returns on them. 

The UST/MIAC situation won't be isolated in my view.  I think there is more change coming in D3 football in the next 5 years.  I think more teams will drop football and the overall gap between the haves and have nots will widen. 

Offline OzJohnnie

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 9782
  • Karma: +3990/-1501
  • Lager, mate?
    • View Profile
    • Johnnies Football
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92403 on: May 14, 2019, 07:59:18 pm »
http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/25776964/insurance-market-football-evaporating-causing-major-threat-nfl-pop-warner-colleges-espn

SJU football, the MIAC and D3 football in general have been a big part of my life for over 30 years. The sport of football in general, and SJU football specifically, has given me a lot (thanks John), and has hopefully made me a better person overall.

Somewhat lost in the shuffle of all of this kick St. Thomas out of the league situation is the growing struggle football as a viable sport seems to be facing. I know it has been touched on by those on this site (high school participation rates, attendance, etc..). The article I have inserted above certainly doesn't paint a good picture in terms of insurance liability coverage and concerns, which can be added to the challenges facing those administering football programs. I'm not crying wolf or saying the sky is falling tomorrow, but perhaps certain institutions are reading the tea leaves in such a way that have led them to the conclusion that A;) Getting crushed every week on the football field is unacceptable, and B;) the investment/commitment needed to change the competitive situation doesn't make long term sense in light of what one could argue is a shaky future for football as an accepted athletic pursuit.

Very fair to consider these very real factors.  It remains to be seen what football will look like 10-20 years from now.  That said, if certain MIAC institutions are reading the tea leaves as you describe, perhaps they should just consider dropping sponsorship of football vs. kicking out those who've made investments and gotten returns on them. 

The UST/MIAC situation won't be isolated in my view.  I think there is more change coming in D3 football in the next 5 years.  I think more teams will drop football and the overall gap between the haves and have nots will widen. 

In which case there will be football special conferences like for hockey, I suppose. The Johnnie/Tommie rivalry can live on then.

I still believe itís the national arms race which has driven this outcome.  This may be just the first conference to fall amongst the conferences that have nationally competitive teams and huge talent disparities in the conference as a result.

(PS, I think this trend toward wrapping everyone in cotton balls is a long term failure for young men.)
[  

Offline hazzben

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4007
  • Karma: +1006/-349
  • "I'm your huckleberry"
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92404 on: May 15, 2019, 10:40:08 am »
I don't dispute your facts Wif. I've seen this in the Mounds View district with youth football. We struggle to get kids out to play, parents will let them play hockey in a heartbeat, but not football  ??? Participation is down, and it's becoming more expensive to insure and equip players.

But I doubt that was any part of the decision making process for tossing UST.

In some ways, if colleges drop football for insurance reasons, that will actually make teams more competitive. As it stands, youth participation is down, but we haven't seen a run on colleges dropping teams. Simple supply and demand. There's a shortage of quality players, which means the poor get poorer.


I still believe itís the national arms race which has driven this outcome.  This may be just the first conference to fall amongst the conferences that have nationally competitive teams and huge talent disparities in the conference as a result.

(PS, I think this trend toward wrapping everyone in cotton balls is a long term failure for young men.)

I don't think this marks a trend. I think we're tempted to read the MIAC's issues into other conferences. I don't see the same thing happening to UMHB, Mount, Whitewater, etc.

But I agree, the arms race is huge a part of this. UMHB is a great example of how outsized the importance of athletics has become just since the turn of the century.

Offline TheChucker

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: +12/-14
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92405 on: May 15, 2019, 03:27:20 pm »
I don't dispute your facts Wif. I've seen this in the Mounds View district with youth football. We struggle to get kids out to play, parents will let them play hockey in a heartbeat, but not football  ??? Participation is down, and it's becoming more expensive to insure and equip players.

But I doubt that was any part of the decision making process for tossing UST.

In some ways, if colleges drop football for insurance reasons, that will actually make teams more competitive. As it stands, youth participation is down, but we haven't seen a run on colleges dropping teams. Simple supply and demand. There's a shortage of quality players, which means the poor get poorer.


I still believe itís the national arms race which has driven this outcome.  This may be just the first conference to fall amongst the conferences that have nationally competitive teams and huge talent disparities in the conference as a result.

(PS, I think this trend toward wrapping everyone in cotton balls is a long term failure for young men.)

I don't think this marks a trend. I think we're tempted to read the MIAC's issues into other conferences. I don't see the same thing happening to UMHB, Mount, Whitewater, etc.

But I agree, the arms race is huge a part of this. UMHB is a great example of how outsized the importance of athletics has become just since the turn of the century.

There is already a massive disparity in UMHB's conference for football with only Hardin Simmons providing any competition at all; to the point that I'm surprised other schools don't bitch about it. UMHB has invested HEAVILY in football and that team makes lesser opponents look like little kids. That said, UMHB differs from St. Thomas in that all other sports are pretty competitive across the conference and school size isn't that much different..for now at least (it's growing).

I think Mount Union has similar dynamics as UMHB.

Whitewater and the WIAC are a little different too because all schools are public and larger than normal, but some choose to invest more heavily in athletics than others and/or have other built in advantages.

In my mind, the NCAA dropped the ball a few years ago when the D4 issue for football was passed up. It seems like it could have been a logical solution. Kind of like how the NAIA splits basketball into Divisions 1 & 2 now (and used to do for football).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 03:30:51 pm by TheChucker »

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 22408
  • Karma: +2564/-807
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92406 on: May 15, 2019, 03:59:58 pm »
The D4 proposal that the D3 convention shot down earlier this decade wasn't for football. It was for all sports.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..Ē -- John Wooden

Offline TheChucker

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Karma: +12/-14
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92407 on: May 15, 2019, 04:47:34 pm »
The D4 proposal that the D3 convention shot down earlier this decade wasn't for football. It was for all sports.

Thanks for clarifying. The D4 proposal may have been for all sports, but it seems that football would be the most applicable application due to cost, high headcount differences, and outright physical/safety issues.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 04:49:30 pm by TheChucker »

Offline Mr. Ypsi

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 22170
  • Karma: +3295/-3243
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92408 on: May 15, 2019, 05:25:48 pm »
The D4 proposal that the D3 convention shot down earlier this decade wasn't for football. It was for all sports.

Thanks for clarifying. The D4 proposal may have been for all sports, but it seems that football would be the most applicable application due to cost, high headcount differences, and outright physical/safety issues.

That may be, but some of the schools leading the 'charge' for D4 just didn't give a damn about competitive intercollegiate athletics in general.  I can't recall now whether any of the MIAC schools were D4 proponents.

Offline wm4

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: +133/-37
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92409 on: May 15, 2019, 06:14:53 pm »
The D4 proposal that the D3 convention shot down earlier this decade wasn't for football. It was for all sports.

Thanks for clarifying. The D4 proposal may have been for all sports, but it seems that football would be the most applicable application due to cost, high headcount differences, and outright physical/safety issues.

That may be, but some of the schools leading the 'charge' for D4 just didn't give a damn about competitive intercollegiate athletics in general.  I can't recall now whether any of the MIAC schools were D4 proponents.

The MIAC is basically 5 D3 football teams and 3 D4 teams right now, with one in between.

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 22408
  • Karma: +2564/-807
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92410 on: May 15, 2019, 08:46:07 pm »
The D4 proposal that the D3 convention shot down earlier this decade wasn't for football. It was for all sports.

Thanks for clarifying. The D4 proposal may have been for all sports, but it seems that football would be the most applicable application due to cost, high headcount differences, and outright physical/safety issues.

That may be, but some of the schools leading the 'charge' for D4 just didn't give a damn about competitive intercollegiate athletics in general.  I can't recall now whether any of the MIAC schools were D4 proponents.

The MIAC is basically 5 D3 football teams and 3 D4 teams right now, with one in between.

Again, D4 wasn't a football proposition. It was an all-sports proposition. And the four schools at the bottom of the MIAC football standings -- Augsburg, Hamline, Carleton, and St. Olaf -- are thriving in other sports.

Carleton is currently still alive in the D3 women's golf national tournament, made it to the Sweet Sixteen in the D3 women's tennis tournament this month, and finished tenth out of 32 teams in the D3 women's cross-country national meet this past fall. Augsburg won the national championship in wrestling this year, the 13th time that the Auggies have brought home the Walnut & Bronze in that sport, and the Auggies have been in the D3 men's hockey tournament each of the past four seasons. Hamline was in the D3 women's lacrosse tournament this season, and the Pipers are very competitive in track & field, especially on the women's side. And while St. Olaf doesn't appear to have reached any D3 tourneys or meets this season, the Oles do appear to be more than holding their own in several sports, including baseball on the men's side and several other sports on the women's side.

Characterizing those schools as "D4" simply because they aren't competitive in football is a false read of the situation.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 08:48:56 pm by Gregory Sager »
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..Ē -- John Wooden

Offline OldAuggie

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1017
  • Karma: +371/-29
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92411 on: May 15, 2019, 09:43:05 pm »
Thanks to Gregory Sager for pointing out there are more athletic teams than football teams in the MIAC.  I have a name for anyone who fits the bill:  Football Only Knuckle Draggers.

Basically, they are F.O.K.D.

Offline wm4

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Karma: +133/-37
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92412 on: May 15, 2019, 09:52:15 pm »
Thanks to Gregory Sager for pointing out there are more athletic teams than football teams in the MIAC.  I have a name for anyone who fits the bill:  Football Only Knuckle Draggers.

Basically, they are F.O.K.D.

This is a football board 😆

Of course there are other sports

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 22408
  • Karma: +2564/-807
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92413 on: May 15, 2019, 10:19:15 pm »
Thanks to Gregory Sager for pointing out there are more athletic teams than football teams in the MIAC.  I have a name for anyone who fits the bill:  Football Only Knuckle Draggers.

Basically, they are F.O.K.D.

This is a football board 😆

Of course there are other sports

Yes, but your use of the "D4" nomenclature didn't indicate that you believed that.

The abortive D4 movement was all about NCAA sports in their entirety, not one sport.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..Ē -- John Wooden

Offline OzJohnnie

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 9782
  • Karma: +3990/-1501
  • Lager, mate?
    • View Profile
    • Johnnies Football
Re: FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #92414 on: May 16, 2019, 12:43:55 am »
Thanks to Gregory Sager for pointing out there are more athletic teams than football teams in the MIAC.  I have a name for anyone who fits the bill:  Football Only Knuckle Draggers.

Basically, they are F.O.K.D.

I saw a really good wrestler once. He was picking up towels after the football team.  :o :P :-*
[