Author Topic: MBB: Midwest Conference  (Read 1369603 times)

Offline sncdangler

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14190 on: January 27, 2019, 07:27:34 pm »
A great game by both teams last night as Grinnell BEAT St. Norbert 102-96!

The real question is would you have posted anything if it had been a great game and St. Norbert had won.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14191 on: January 30, 2019, 01:46:26 pm »


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Offline iltsilts

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14192 on: January 31, 2019, 11:40:07 pm »
A great game by both teams last night as Grinnell BEAT St. Norbert 102-96!

The real question is would you have posted anything if it had been a great game and St. Norbert had won.

Nope, would have been crying in my beer  ;D ;D ;D

Actually, I really meant it - it was a great game, both teams played hard and well.

Offline judgetrainer

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14193 on: February 04, 2019, 10:58:30 am »
Does anyone else think the top four are now decided? I don't see Lawrence or Monmouth winning four straight. Monmouth makes it if they win out but they seem to be up and down this season. Thoughts?

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14194 on: February 04, 2019, 01:25:51 pm »
Does anyone else think the top four are now decided? I don't see Lawrence or Monmouth winning four straight. Monmouth makes it if they win out but they seem to be up and down this season. Thoughts?

I don't follow? Lawrence and Monmouth are 7-7, just a game back of Ripon (8-6), who is in 4th.

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Offline judgetrainer

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14195 on: February 04, 2019, 01:39:00 pm »
I just don't see either of those teams catching Ripon. Possible but not likely. LU has SNC and Lake Forest left. Monmouth has Ripon and SNC. Ripon plays LFC and Monmouth (and Knox and Cornell). Ripon wins at least two of the four. I suppose three wins might do it but I see both of the 7-7s doing 2-2 to finish out.

Now, as the one and only LU fan I would love to see this get turned crazy. I just don't see it.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14196 on: February 06, 2019, 04:14:03 pm »
Here are the first rankings for the men this season: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/02/men-regional-rankings-first
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Offline gbpuckfan

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14197 on: February 06, 2019, 06:26:33 pm »
St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18

Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14198 on: February 07, 2019, 04:24:21 pm »
Here are the first rankings for the men this season: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/02/men-regional-rankings-first

Translation: Just a one-bid league.

When has it ever not been? I remember several years back during the undefeated conference streak there was talk of SNC not getting an at-large had they not won the conference tourney. This year I think the league is pretty weak, but the MWC always gets the short-end, especially in soccer and baseball, when there should be a clear cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years.

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14199 on: February 07, 2019, 07:50:12 pm »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14200 on: February 08, 2019, 11:26:58 am »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.

Exactly. Contrary to GreenKnights920's statement, there has not been "a clear-cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years." The reason why the MWC hasn't had a second team in the tourney since 1996 is because the league's non-AQ teams never measure up according to the five primary criteria used by the NCAA regional and national committes to rank teams in each region. And, since the NCAA moved the WIAC into the Central Region a few years ago, the chances of the MWC getting a Pool C (at-large) team in the tourney have become even more remote, since it's that much harder for a MWC team to get regionally ranked now that the MWC is stuck in the same region as two of the best leagues in all of D3.

The MWC went 27-44 (.380) in non-conference play this season, a pretty typical performance for this league. That drags down the strength of schedule of every team in the MWC -- and, of course, the league itself always goes .500 in-house, so nobody's gonna get a boost that way. The top teams in the MWC -- and the teams at the top of this league are often pretty decent -- are greatly handicapped by the fact that the league as a whole can't hold its own in November and December. Thus, they have to win the AQ in the MWC tourney or stay home in March, gaudy record and all.
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Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14201 on: February 08, 2019, 01:12:19 pm »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.

Exactly. Contrary to GreenKnights920's statement, there has not been "a clear-cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years." The reason why the MWC hasn't had a second team in the tourney since 1996 is because the league's non-AQ teams never measure up according to the five primary criteria used by the NCAA regional and national committes to rank teams in each region. And, since the NCAA moved the WIAC into the Central Region a few years ago, the chances of the MWC getting a Pool C (at-large) team in the tourney have become even more remote, since it's that much harder for a MWC team to get regionally ranked now that the MWC is stuck in the same region as two of the best leagues in all of D3.

The MWC went 27-44 (.380) in non-conference play this season, a pretty typical performance for this league. That drags down the strength of schedule of every team in the MWC -- and, of course, the league itself always goes .500 in-house, so nobody's gonna get a boost that way. The top teams in the MWC -- and the teams at the top of this league are often pretty decent -- are greatly handicapped by the fact that the league as a whole can't hold its own in November and December. Thus, they have to win the AQ in the MWC tourney or stay home in March, gaudy record and all.

If you read my statement, you would see that I was referencing soccer and baseball as having teams that could have been at-larges many years. Even taking basketball into account, from the 2013-2015 seasons, SNC certainly should have been on the safe side of the bubble had they not won the AQ, yet, the regional rankings did not reflect this.

I've argued this on the soccer board, but SOS, especially in D3, is a totally overrated metric. You are boxed in by who you are able to play by virtue of your conference, as well as travel limitations caused by both proximity and budget restrictions. SOS only seems to be an argument that people make when it is convenient for their team.

Offline sncsid

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14202 on: February 08, 2019, 01:29:17 pm »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.

Exactly. Contrary to GreenKnights920's statement, there has not been "a clear-cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years." The reason why the MWC hasn't had a second team in the tourney since 1996 is because the league's non-AQ teams never measure up according to the five primary criteria used by the NCAA regional and national committes to rank teams in each region. And, since the NCAA moved the WIAC into the Central Region a few years ago, the chances of the MWC getting a Pool C (at-large) team in the tourney have become even more remote, since it's that much harder for a MWC team to get regionally ranked now that the MWC is stuck in the same region as two of the best leagues in all of D3.

The MWC went 27-44 (.380) in non-conference play this season, a pretty typical performance for this league. That drags down the strength of schedule of every team in the MWC -- and, of course, the league itself always goes .500 in-house, so nobody's gonna get a boost that way. The top teams in the MWC -- and the teams at the top of this league are often pretty decent -- are greatly handicapped by the fact that the league as a whole can't hold its own in November and December. Thus, they have to win the AQ in the MWC tourney or stay home in March, gaudy record and all.

St. Norbert got an at-large in 2002 and Carroll got an at-large in 2006. Rare, but not impossible. I also felt pretty good about St. Norbert getting an at-large in 2016 had the screen-the-inbounder not worked in the tournament championship game, as we ended up hosting a regional on merit that year. The key that year was three wins over Carroll, which was regionally ranked.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14203 on: February 08, 2019, 03:07:06 pm »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.

Exactly. Contrary to GreenKnights920's statement, there has not been "a clear-cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years." The reason why the MWC hasn't had a second team in the tourney since 1996 is because the league's non-AQ teams never measure up according to the five primary criteria used by the NCAA regional and national committes to rank teams in each region. And, since the NCAA moved the WIAC into the Central Region a few years ago, the chances of the MWC getting a Pool C (at-large) team in the tourney have become even more remote, since it's that much harder for a MWC team to get regionally ranked now that the MWC is stuck in the same region as two of the best leagues in all of D3.

The MWC went 27-44 (.380) in non-conference play this season, a pretty typical performance for this league. That drags down the strength of schedule of every team in the MWC -- and, of course, the league itself always goes .500 in-house, so nobody's gonna get a boost that way. The top teams in the MWC -- and the teams at the top of this league are often pretty decent -- are greatly handicapped by the fact that the league as a whole can't hold its own in November and December. Thus, they have to win the AQ in the MWC tourney or stay home in March, gaudy record and all.

If you read my statement, you would see that I was referencing soccer and baseball as having teams that could have been at-larges many years.

That's not made clear by the way that you worded it.

Even taking basketball into account, from the 2013-2015 seasons, SNC certainly should have been on the safe side of the bubble had they not won the AQ, yet, the regional rankings did not reflect this.

I've argued this on the soccer board, but SOS, especially in D3, is a totally overrated metric. You are boxed in by who you are able to play by virtue of your conference, as well as travel limitations caused by both proximity and budget restrictions. SOS only seems to be an argument that people make when it is convenient for their team.

SOS is only "overrated" if your league's best team is at its mercy. It's a necessary metric when you're talking about 420-odd schools competing to qualify for a tournament that has, depending upon which of the three sports we're talking about, 56, 62, or 64 slots, with most of those slots taken up by Pool A automatic qualfiers. You need additional metrics besides winning percentage to sort out a situation in which it's highly unlikely that a team from one part of the country played a team from another part of the country with whom it's vying for a Pool C slot in the selection process, or has common opponents with that other team. And SOS is the most logical one.

It's not necessarily a hurdle that the MWC can't overcome. To cite local examples in the two other sports you've mentioned, in baseball the NACC has had a Pool C team twice in this decade, and the SLIAC has had a Pool C team three times. In men's soccer the NACC has had a Pool C team as recently as 2014. The NACC and the SLIAC certainly aren't powerhouse leagues in any sport, including the three that we're talking about.

The only way that a team can overcome the hurdle of playing in a weak league is to schedule strategically in non-conference play. Granted, it's easier to raise your SOS in baseball and men's soccer because the vast majority of teams in those sports play a much larger percentage of their schedule outside of their respective circuits than they do in men's basketball. But it is possible. Even St. Norbert, which doesn't have a plethora of nearby non-conference opponents, is quite capable of bolstering its SOS in all three sports if it is canny in the way that it goes about -- and it does appear to me that Gary Grzesk does schedule strategically. The cumulative winning percentage of SNC's non-con opponents this season is an excellent .597. The problem is that your Green Knights haven't fared well against non-con opponents that it should be able to beat if it is a Pool C worthy team, and needs to beat in order to get the winning percentage up as well. The losses to Northwestern (16-6, and a member of the ultra-weak UMAC), UWEC (13-9), and UWRF (10-12) have really crippled SNC's case this season.

St. Norbert got an at-large in 2002 and Carroll got an at-large in 2006.

Right. I overlooked those two. Thanks, Dan!
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Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14204 on: February 08, 2019, 04:06:10 pm »
Overall, the league is pretty weak year in and year out. Until the league itself starts proving they can win nc games, they'll always have a weak SOS. It doesn't help that they can only schedule 5 or 6 nc games, thus limiting their opportunity to raise their SOS. Hardly the short end of the stick.

Exactly. Contrary to GreenKnights920's statement, there has not been "a clear-cut at-large team in addition to the AQ some years." The reason why the MWC hasn't had a second team in the tourney since 1996 is because the league's non-AQ teams never measure up according to the five primary criteria used by the NCAA regional and national committes to rank teams in each region. And, since the NCAA moved the WIAC into the Central Region a few years ago, the chances of the MWC getting a Pool C (at-large) team in the tourney have become even more remote, since it's that much harder for a MWC team to get regionally ranked now that the MWC is stuck in the same region as two of the best leagues in all of D3.

The MWC went 27-44 (.380) in non-conference play this season, a pretty typical performance for this league. That drags down the strength of schedule of every team in the MWC -- and, of course, the league itself always goes .500 in-house, so nobody's gonna get a boost that way. The top teams in the MWC -- and the teams at the top of this league are often pretty decent -- are greatly handicapped by the fact that the league as a whole can't hold its own in November and December. Thus, they have to win the AQ in the MWC tourney or stay home in March, gaudy record and all.

If you read my statement, you would see that I was referencing soccer and baseball as having teams that could have been at-larges many years.

That's not made clear by the way that you worded it.

Even taking basketball into account, from the 2013-2015 seasons, SNC certainly should have been on the safe side of the bubble had they not won the AQ, yet, the regional rankings did not reflect this.

I've argued this on the soccer board, but SOS, especially in D3, is a totally overrated metric. You are boxed in by who you are able to play by virtue of your conference, as well as travel limitations caused by both proximity and budget restrictions. SOS only seems to be an argument that people make when it is convenient for their team.

SOS is only "overrated" if your league's best team is at its mercy. It's a necessary metric when you're talking about 420-odd schools competing to qualify for a tournament that has, depending upon which of the three sports we're talking about, 56, 62, or 64 slots, with most of those slots taken up by Pool A automatic qualfiers. You need additional metrics besides winning percentage to sort out a situation in which it's highly unlikely that a team from one part of the country played a team from another part of the country with whom it's vying for a Pool C slot in the selection process, or has common opponents with that other team. And SOS is the most logical one.

It's not necessarily a hurdle that the MWC can't overcome. To cite local examples in the two other sports you've mentioned, in baseball the NACC has had a Pool C team twice in this decade, and the SLIAC has had a Pool C team three times. In men's soccer the NACC has had a Pool C team as recently as 2014. The NACC and the SLIAC certainly aren't powerhouse leagues in any sport, including the three that we're talking about.

The only way that a team can overcome the hurdle of playing in a weak league is to schedule strategically in non-conference play. Granted, it's easier to raise your SOS in baseball and men's soccer because the vast majority of teams in those sports play a much larger percentage of their schedule outside of their respective circuits than they do in men's basketball. But it is possible. Even St. Norbert, which doesn't have a plethora of nearby non-conference opponents, is quite capable of bolstering its SOS in all three sports if it is canny in the way that it goes about -- and it does appear to me that Gary Grzesk does schedule strategically. The cumulative winning percentage of SNC's non-con opponents this season is an excellent .597. The problem is that your Green Knights haven't fared well against non-con opponents that it should be able to beat if it is a Pool C worthy team, and needs to beat in order to get the winning percentage up as well. The losses to Northwestern (16-6, and a member of the ultra-weak UMAC), UWEC (13-9), and UWRF (10-12) have really crippled SNC's case this season.

St. Norbert got an at-large in 2002 and Carroll got an at-large in 2006.

Right. I overlooked those two. Thanks, Dan!

I agree that SNC is not deserving of a Pool C bid this year, that I think we see eye-to-eye on. My issue lies with SOS being the main arbiter when trying to fill those bids. When teams are of near identical record, then sure, SOS is a useful metric. When you're talking about teams from a non-power conference that do put up gaudy records and comparing them to, say, a middling NJAC or CCIW team (in terms of record) that would have a higher SOS and ability to play more regionally ranked opponents by virtue of them being in conference play, SOS becomes a not so great metric.