Author Topic: MBB: Midwest Conference  (Read 1361352 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14280 on: April 13, 2019, 01:12:52 am »
The MWC has loosened the restrictions in recent years. The league now allows its teams to play as many regular-season games as the rest of D3 (which, in the case of men's basketball, is 25), and it's now permissible for the league's coaches to recruit off-campus. The remaining restrictions are limitations upon scrimmaging and the fact that the coaches are only allowed to recruit off-campus for a fixed time period (I think it's one month, but I'm not 100% certain about that.)

SNC strongly hints that it's the travel, not the restrictions, that brought about the parting of the ways. There may be other factors at work, but travel is the reason that they state, and I don't see a reason to question them as to it being the primary factor.

https://www.snc.edu/athletics/pressrelease/5051/
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Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14281 on: April 13, 2019, 07:14:28 am »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but another reason to jump to the NACC may be to get a stronger presence in the Milwaukee and Chicago area markets.

Also, did SNC ask to join the CCIW and got denied or did SNC decline an invitation?
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Offline WW

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14282 on: April 13, 2019, 09:00:21 am »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but another reason to jump to the NACC may be to get a stronger presence in the Milwaukee and Chicago area markets.

Also, did SNC ask to join the CCIW and got denied or did SNC decline an invitation?

Thatís ostensibly why Carroll left MWC for CCIW. Wonder if they had anything to do with SNC not gaining entry into CCIW (now theres a conspiracy theory I can work with!)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14283 on: April 13, 2019, 09:26:48 am »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but another reason to jump to the NACC may be to get a stronger presence in the Milwaukee and Chicago area markets.

Also, did SNC ask to join the CCIW and got denied or did SNC decline an invitation?

There was no invitation offered by the CCIW. SNC was interested in CCIW membership, but I'm unsure if the school ever made a formal petition or merely sent out feelers to gauge the interest of the CCIW's various schools.

Thatís ostensibly why Carroll left MWC for CCIW.

Well, that and the fact that Carroll's administration felt that the step up in competitive level would help draw more interest from high school student-athletes. CCIW membership is a draw in and of itself in comparison to MWC membership in the eyes of kids who want to play at the highest level possible if they're not offered a scholarship somewhere.

(Also, to be clear, Carroll's specific region-based recruiting interest in joining the CCIW was to draw more Chicagoland students. CCIW membership probably doesn't resonate as much with Milwaukee-area high schoolers.)

Wonder if they had anything to do with SNC not gaining entry into CCIW (now theres a conspiracy theory I can work with!)

One had nothing to do with the other. From what I've been told, the CCIW considered the two schools entirely separately. The CCIW's braintrust would be entirely open to adding a tenth member, but it has to be the right school. SNC would be a great addition in terms of competitive fit, but it's much too far outside of the league's geographic footprint in the eyes of the CCIW's leadership. Even Carroll was a bit of a stretch in that regard. The geographic compactness of the league is a big selling point.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14284 on: April 14, 2019, 11:35:16 am »


One had nothing to do with the other. From what I've been told, the CCIW considered the two schools entirely separately. The CCIW's braintrust would be entirely open to adding a tenth member, but it has to be the right school. SNC would be a great addition in terms of competitive fit, but it's much too far outside of the league's geographic footprint in the eyes of the CCIW's leadership. Even Carroll was a bit of a stretch in that regard. The geographic compactness of the league is a big selling point.

What about St. Thomas?  Asking for a friend.
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Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14285 on: April 14, 2019, 06:20:16 pm »
I've already answered that question. Open dates aren't necessarily easy to fill. You're mistaken in thinking that St. Norbert's geography is not a problem. There are only sixteen D3 schools within three hours' drive of SNC. Four of them are MWC schools, and six are NACC schools. That is not a broad palette from which to create a non-conference schedule that will get an SNC student back in his or her bed on a weeknight and guarantee that he or she will have enough sleep before classes the next morning.

You're also forgetting that part of what a coach tries to do, if his team has any aspirations at all of reaching the postseason, is to schedule strategically. SNC head men's basketball coach Gary Grzesk is very good at this. He knows that his team is typically good enough to dominate what is not a very good league by D3 standards. So he schedules strong non-conference teams in order to prepare them for the possibility of what they might see in the post-season. Hence, the strong WIAC teams that appear on the SNC schedule every year. But, more than that, he looks for programs like his, programs that are always strong but play in what have historically been weaker leagues. Hence, he schedules teams such as Wartburg, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, good but beatable teams who are almost always guaranteed to finish with solid W-L records that will enhance the strength of schedule of the Green Knights and improve their chances for a Pool C berth and/or their postseason seeding.

Last season he had the Green Knights play Northwestern and Benedictine, two more classic examples of good but beatable teams that in a typical season will end the year with good records because of the lesser strength of their leagues.

I didn't go to Google maps for the drive times, but I did discover that there are 20 coed D3 schools (22 women's programs) in the state of Wisconsin, plus several NAIA schools.  There are also several more D3 schools from Illinois, Iowa and Minnesota that are even closer drives to SNC than a few of the Wisconsin D3 schools located in the far northwest corner of the state. From a NC scheduling perspective, that seems like plenty of relatively close options to me.  I do understand the strategic NC scheduling concept, but I'm arguing pure geography here, because that was St. Norbert's argument as to why they looked to change conferences.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14286 on: April 14, 2019, 07:08:04 pm »
I've already answered that question. Open dates aren't necessarily easy to fill. You're mistaken in thinking that St. Norbert's geography is not a problem. There are only sixteen D3 schools within three hours' drive of SNC. Four of them are MWC schools, and six are NACC schools. That is not a broad palette from which to create a non-conference schedule that will get an SNC student back in his or her bed on a weeknight and guarantee that he or she will have enough sleep before classes the next morning.

You're also forgetting that part of what a coach tries to do, if his team has any aspirations at all of reaching the postseason, is to schedule strategically. SNC head men's basketball coach Gary Grzesk is very good at this. He knows that his team is typically good enough to dominate what is not a very good league by D3 standards. So he schedules strong non-conference teams in order to prepare them for the possibility of what they might see in the post-season. Hence, the strong WIAC teams that appear on the SNC schedule every year. But, more than that, he looks for programs like his, programs that are always strong but play in what have historically been weaker leagues. Hence, he schedules teams such as Wartburg, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, good but beatable teams who are almost always guaranteed to finish with solid W-L records that will enhance the strength of schedule of the Green Knights and improve their chances for a Pool C berth and/or their postseason seeding.

Last season he had the Green Knights play Northwestern and Benedictine, two more classic examples of good but beatable teams that in a typical season will end the year with good records because of the lesser strength of their leagues.

I didn't go to Google maps for the drive times, but I did discover that there are 20 coed D3 schools (22 women's programs) in the state of Wisconsin, plus several NAIA schools.  There are also several more D3 schools from Illinois, Iowa and Minnesota that are even closer drives to SNC than a few of the Wisconsin D3 schools located in the far northwest corner of the state. From a NC scheduling perspective, that seems like plenty of relatively close options to me.  I do understand the strategic NC scheduling concept, but I'm arguing pure geography here, because that was St. Norbert's argument as to why they looked to change conferences.

That might be support for the move.  If they've spending less on travel for conference games, there might be more in the budget to go a little farther afield for good non-conference games.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14287 on: April 14, 2019, 08:21:59 pm »


One had nothing to do with the other. From what I've been told, the CCIW considered the two schools entirely separately. The CCIW's braintrust would be entirely open to adding a tenth member, but it has to be the right school. SNC would be a great addition in terms of competitive fit, but it's much too far outside of the league's geographic footprint in the eyes of the CCIW's leadership. Even Carroll was a bit of a stretch in that regard. The geographic compactness of the league is a big selling point.

What about St. Thomas?  Asking for a friend.

LOL!

I've already answered that question. Open dates aren't necessarily easy to fill. You're mistaken in thinking that St. Norbert's geography is not a problem. There are only sixteen D3 schools within three hours' drive of SNC. Four of them are MWC schools, and six are NACC schools. That is not a broad palette from which to create a non-conference schedule that will get an SNC student back in his or her bed on a weeknight and guarantee that he or she will have enough sleep before classes the next morning.

You're also forgetting that part of what a coach tries to do, if his team has any aspirations at all of reaching the postseason, is to schedule strategically. SNC head men's basketball coach Gary Grzesk is very good at this. He knows that his team is typically good enough to dominate what is not a very good league by D3 standards. So he schedules strong non-conference teams in order to prepare them for the possibility of what they might see in the post-season. Hence, the strong WIAC teams that appear on the SNC schedule every year. But, more than that, he looks for programs like his, programs that are always strong but play in what have historically been weaker leagues. Hence, he schedules teams such as Wartburg, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, good but beatable teams who are almost always guaranteed to finish with solid W-L records that will enhance the strength of schedule of the Green Knights and improve their chances for a Pool C berth and/or their postseason seeding.

Last season he had the Green Knights play Northwestern and Benedictine, two more classic examples of good but beatable teams that in a typical season will end the year with good records because of the lesser strength of their leagues.

I didn't go to Google maps for the drive times,

Well, I did.

but I did discover that there are 20 coed D3 schools (22 women's programs) in the state of Wisconsin, plus several NAIA schools.

... many of which are more than three hours' distant from the SNC campus.

And why are you even bothering to mention NAIA schools at all?

  There are also several more D3 schools from Illinois, Iowa and Minnesota that are even closer drives to SNC than a few of the Wisconsin D3 schools located in the far northwest corner of the state.

Correct. And a grand total of one of them -- Lake Forest -- is within three hours' drive of SNC.

The nearest Minnesota D3 school, St. Mary's, is 3 hours and 50 minutes from SNC. And the nearest Iowa D3 school, Luther, is  four and a half hours' distant.

From a NC scheduling perspective, that seems like plenty of relatively close options to me.

You have a very generous notion of the term "relatively close". Four or five hours there, play the game, and then four or five hours back? Especially on a weeknight? Or, getting back to MWC games, leave on a Thursday for the Friday/Saturday road trip, which is commonly how it's done in the MWC? You do realize, don't you, that a very big part of what being in D3 means, for those schools that are lucky enough to be in a part of the country where there's at least one conference that has members that are within a reasonable distance, is to avoid missed class time? If your bus is getting back to campus at 3 am, guess what? You're going to miss your 8 am class. And if you're doing the Friday/Saturday road trip, you're missing your Friday classes altogether.
 
I do understand the strategic NC scheduling concept, but I'm arguing pure geography here, because that was St. Norbert's argument as to why they looked to change conferences.

... which brings us right around again to the fact that NACC schools, taken as a whole, are closer than MWC schools if you're SNC.

The average distance to a MWC opponent that Green Knights teams have to travel is 3 hours and 50 minutes. Five of the nine MWC members are over four hours' distant from De Pere, WI. The average distance to a NACC opponent that Green Knights teams have to travel is 2 hours and 15 minutes. None of the NACC members are over four hours' distant from De Pere, and over half the league can be reached within 2 hours and 10 minutes of travel -- a distance that will only take you to two MWC campuses (Lawrence and Rioon) from SNC.

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Offline WW

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14288 on: April 14, 2019, 09:50:15 pm »
I had to scroll through 21 SNC sports before I found one that traveled for NC competition as far as *gasp* Wartburg. And I canít find anywhere on a SNC tennis schedule that documents a trip to Calvin. Stopped vetting your case after that. They donít overtravel for NC competition in any sport that I can see, spring break type, self-funded trips notwithstanding.

Iíll say this... if a travel reduction from 30-50% in mileage occurs, that means a reduction of overnights by almost 80-100%. You know what it costs to take a football team, plus staff, down to the Knosher Bowl, put em in a hotel, feed em five meals, all for the reward of playing a really uncompetitive game? Too much.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 08:04:13 am by WW »

Offline AndOne

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14289 on: April 14, 2019, 11:10:22 pm »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but another reason to jump to the NACC may be to get a stronger presence in the Milwaukee and Chicago area markets.

Also, did SNC ask to join the CCIW and got denied or did SNC decline an invitation?

There was no invitation offered by the CCIW. SNC was interested in CCIW membership, but I'm unsure if the school ever made a formal petition or merely sent out feelers to gauge the interest of the CCIW's various schools.

Letís say SNC DID ask to join the CCIW. Does anyone know how many dissenting votes it would take
to bar membership? Just one? A majority? Another number?
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Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14290 on: April 15, 2019, 10:03:47 am »
If current format stands, SNC will also have to find two less NC games to schedule as the NACC plays 20 conference games. Two close NC games open up as well, Lawrence and Ripon.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14291 on: April 15, 2019, 10:46:47 am »
Someone mentioned this earlier, but another reason to jump to the NACC may be to get a stronger presence in the Milwaukee and Chicago area markets.

Also, did SNC ask to join the CCIW and got denied or did SNC decline an invitation?

There was no invitation offered by the CCIW. SNC was interested in CCIW membership, but I'm unsure if the school ever made a formal petition or merely sent out feelers to gauge the interest of the CCIW's various schools.

Letís say SNC DID ask to join the CCIW. Does anyone know how many dissenting votes it would take
to bar membership? Just one? A majority? Another number?

From Article III, Section 7 of the CCIW constitution:

Quote
Section 7: Membership Approval. New members (associate or full) must be voted in by a two-thirds vote of the current member presidents present at a regular or called meeting. New members shall submit an initiation fee of up to one year of membership dues at the time of acceptance to account for the necessary changes needed to integrate the new member into the conference.

So the answer to your question is "four".
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Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14292 on: April 15, 2019, 01:11:29 pm »
I had to scroll through 21 SNC sports before I found one that traveled for NC competition as far as *gasp* Wartburg. And I canít find anywhere on a SNC tennis schedule that documents a trip to Calvin. Stopped vetting your case after that. They donít overtravel for NC competition in any sport that I can see, spring break type, self-funded trips notwithstanding.

Try the search function on the website.  It'll save you tons of time scrolling through schedules.  Had you done that and searched for Wartburg, you would have learned very quickly that the mens golf team traveled there earlier this month and the mens track teamm was there last month. Gasp all you want, but that's a 5.5 hour trip.   Had you plugged in Rose-Hulman, you would have learned that the mens and womens track team have both been there on two separate occasions already this year.    Mens and womens track also traveled to KU in Lawrence for a meet.  Plugging in Calvin would have uncovered that the mens and womens cross country teams traveled there last fall.

Look, all I am saying is that the time saving rationale being given for the move from the MWC to the NACC rings a little hollow when you've got tournaments and NC contests at such relatively far flung schools as those mentioned above...given the fact that there are plenty of other D3 schools substantially closer.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14293 on: April 15, 2019, 02:26:54 pm »
Look, all I am saying is that the time saving rationale being given for the move from the MWC to the NACC rings a little hollow when you've got tournaments and NC contests at such relatively far flung schools as those mentioned above...given the fact that there are plenty of other D3 schools substantially closer.

It only rings hollow if you haven't bothered to try to find out why the men's golf team or the women's cross-country have participated in meets or tournaments at far-flung locales. I've already explained to you why Gary Grzesk schedules certain types of non-conference opponents for SNC men's basketball. Perhaps the other SNC programs do so for similar reasons. Or perhaps none (or not enough) of the more proximate schools host meets or tournaments conducive to SNC's scheduling needs. All you're doing is looking at schedules and coming to the conclusion that SNC coaches are profligate with time and money when it comes to non-conference scheduling, but you don't really seem interested in the why behind that schedule-making.

I've given you ample evidence that the move to the NACC is a sound one for St. Norbert from the standpoints of both time and money. I'm at a loss as to why you're persisting in this line of inquiry.
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14294 on: April 15, 2019, 02:54:36 pm »
Moving to the NACC is actually a great golf move for St. Norbert, as the NACC has enough schools to qualify for an automatic bid in men's golf, while the MWC does not.
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