Empire 8

[Yanks 99]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Alfred not getting a #1 seed. To me, they've topped one good team this season: Springfield. Everyone else in the E8's got three losses, and there's a pretty decent chance they all wind up with four. Heck, three of them could have FIVE.

Undefeated records look pretty, but if they aren't based on beating good teams, who cares? Honestly, if we were to look at the Top 25, what other team couldn't pull off a 9-0 based on what we know now about how weak the E8 has been? I don't follow other conferences, so I don't know about the other teams, and I've been supportive of Alfred in the past, but 9-0 alone does not automatically make you a dominant team.

Undefeated records may not be the do all, say all...but we cannot say the E8 is not strong this year simply because the usual players (Ithaca, St. John Fisher) are not at the top of the list.  Traditionally, the E8 is very strong...and I think it is this year as well from top to bottom.

Strong from top to bottom? Please.

Utica's wins are over teams with a combined 3-23 record.
Hartwick's? Their wins are over teams with a 14-30 record
IC? Theirs are over teams with a 13-27 record
Fisher?  Theirs are over teams with a 12-18 record

Total: 42-98

Ithaca is not a strong team. Anyone's who's watched them play this year knows that. They've lost to the only three good teams they've played all season. They'll probably go 5-5 this year.

Has Utica made strides? Yes. Are they tougher than they used to be? Yes. They're still 3-5, and while most of the losses are close, "strong" teams win some of those games. Like Ithaca, they've lost every game they've played against a good team. They've beaten three terrible teams

Same thing with Fisher. Who's their best win? Ithaca? Depending on your view of Salisbury in relation to Ithaca, they've lost the three toughest games they've played.

Hartwick? Norwich is 6-3, although I have no clue how good their conference is.

What's the best OOC win by one of those teams? Wick over Norwich or Salve Regina probably. And it's hard to consider Norwich a "true" OOC game.

Springfield and Alfred are the only two teams who even merit consideration for being above-average in my opinion. The rest are teams who do exactly what average teams do: Beat terrible teams and few others

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth (hint...I stopped reading pretty much after the second or third number)...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

Someone has to be on top. "Springfield and Alfred are the only two teams who even merit consideration for being above-average in my opinion. The rest are teams who do exactly what average teams do: Beat terrible teams and few others".  This pretty much happens EVERY year...the top two teams do well against everyone, while everyone else has a bunch of losses...since someone has to lose each game.  Pretty sure you will see this in literally every league in the country.

[maxpower]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

[AUKaz00]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Alfred not getting a #1 seed. To me, they've topped one good team this season: Springfield. Everyone else in the E8's got three losses, and there's a pretty decent chance they all wind up with four. Heck, three of them could have FIVE.

Undefeated records look pretty, but if they aren't based on beating good teams, who cares? Honestly, if we were to look at the Top 25, what other team couldn't pull off a 9-0 based on what we know now about how weak the E8 has been? I don't follow other conferences, so I don't know about the other teams, and I've been supportive of Alfred in the past, but 9-0 alone does not automatically make you a dominant team.

Undefeated records may not be the do all, say all...but we cannot say the E8 is not strong this year simply because the usual players (Ithaca, St. John Fisher) are not at the top of the list.  Traditionally, the E8 is very strong...and I think it is this year as well from top to bottom.

Strong from top to bottom? Please.

Utica's wins are over teams with a combined 3-23 record.
Hartwick's? Their wins are over teams with a 14-30 record
IC? Theirs are over teams with a 13-27 record
Fisher?  Theirs are over teams with a 12-18 record

Total: 42-98

Ithaca is not a strong team. Anyone's who's watched them play this year knows that. They've lost to the only three good teams they've played all season. They'll probably go 5-5 this year.

Has Utica made strides? Yes. Are they tougher than they used to be? Yes. They're still 3-5, and while most of the losses are close, "strong" teams win some of those games. Like Ithaca, they've lost every game they've played against a good team. They've beaten three terrible teams

Same thing with Fisher. Who's their best win? Ithaca? Depending on your view of Salisbury in relation to Ithaca, they've lost the three toughest games they've played.

Hartwick? Norwich is 6-3, although I have no clue how good their conference is.

What's the best OOC win by one of those teams? Wick over Norwich or Salve Regina probably. And it's hard to consider Norwich a "true" OOC game.

Springfield and Alfred are the only two teams who even merit consideration for being above-average in my opinion. The rest are teams who do exactly what average teams do: Beat terrible teams and few others

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth (hint...I stopped reading pretty much after the second or third number)...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

Someone has to be on top. "Springfield and Alfred are the only two teams who even merit consideration for being above-average in my opinion. The rest are teams who do exactly what average teams do: Beat terrible teams and few others".  This pretty much happens EVERY year...the top two teams do well against everyone, while everyone else has a bunch of losses...since someone has to lose each game.  Pretty sure you will see this in literally every league in the country.

I've gotta agree with Yanks here.  The conference is currently 20-4 (.833) OOC this year.  For comparison sake (and this includes playoffs and ECACs) here are the OOC records for the E6 (excluding Norwich for obvious reasons) the past three years: 2008 - 16-11 (.593), 2007 - 21-9 (.700), 2006 - 23-8 (.742).  Now, that may very well be against better competition and this year's numbers are going to fall during games played after week 11, but the argument that suddenly the Empire 8 is weak seems a bit premature and disingenuous to the teams which are doing well this year.

[Yanks 99]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

[Jonny Utah]

I kind of agree with Yanks here.  While the bottom of the E8 might not have winning records against winning teams, the bottom of many other conferences dont have winning records period. 

[Bombers798891]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

Ok, you're right that the losses were tough. But then you ignore the fact that almost all of the wins were over bad teams. Quality of opponents matter. It's not JUST about the record.

St. Lawrence? Anna Maria? Widener? Becker? Castleton State? Morrisville State? Frostburg? FDU-Florham? Mass Dartmouth? Rochester?

I mean, is there a single win in those 20 against a good team there? The best OOC win is probably by Hartwick over Norwich, who is 6-3.

[pumkinattack]

Yeah, but the problem is the top teams in the E8 don't have any impressive wins this year (it's not about the bottom, but rather the middle and top).  In 2006, for example, Springfield beat playoff bound 7-3 Union and 7-3 Montcliar, AU shut out 5-5 Thiel, SJF shut out 6-5 Kings and blasted 7-4 UofR, IC beat 6-4 Huntingdon.  I don't see any wins from the top 3-4 in the E8 that comes close to these, regular season, results.  

2007 IC beats 5-5 Brockport and 8-3 Cortland, Springfield beats 5-5 Union, SJF didn't play anyone much (Brockport, same as IC).  That's a close comparison, but it'll take two playoff wins or more for me to believe that AU is as good SJF was that year (beating a pretty good Hobart squad and then Curry before getting mowed down by John MUC Deere).  

The bigger problem in looking at the E8 over the last couple of years is that, aside from SJF, the OOC competition seems to have slid across the board.  There's also more NEFC/ECFC on the OOC schedules.  

[maxpower]

I kind of agree with Yanks here.  While the bottom of the E8 might not have winning records against winning teams, the bottom of many other conferences dont have winning records period. 

I thought we were comparing the E8 to other E8s, not other conferences.

Yanks, enough "bitterness" talk. The last thing Bombers is doing is "ignoring" the 20-4 OOC record; he's looking into it with far more detail than you!

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

You keep insisting you don't have an inferiority complex, then take reasonable analysis from Bomber fans and call it "bitter." The only thing to support your argument is your perception of how Bomber posters think. We're flattered that our opinions have become the litmus test for how you see the E8.

[Yanks 99]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

Ok, you're right that the losses were tough. But then you ignore the fact that almost all of the wins were over bad teams. Quality of opponents matter. It's not JUST about the record.

St. Lawrence? Anna Maria? Widener? Becker? Castleton State? Morrisville State? Frostburg? FDU-Florham? Mass Dartmouth? Rochester?

I mean, is there a single win in those 20 against a good team there? The best OOC win is probably by Hartwick over Norwich, who is 6-3.

I hear what you are saying...but show me ANY other conference with a better OOC record as a whole...or a team from anywhere in the country whose OOC opponents winning percentage is off the charts.  My guess is you may find one or two...but not many.  To give you an idea, St. John's OOC opponents winning percentage is .438, Linfield's is .500, and Thomas More's is .214.  All three of these teams are ranked in the top 11...and none of their OOC opponents winning percentage is that fantastic.

[Yanks 99]

I kind of agree with Yanks here.  While the bottom of the E8 might not have winning records against winning teams, the bottom of many other conferences dont have winning records period. 

I thought we were comparing the E8 to other E8s, not other conferences.

Yanks, enough "bitterness" talk. The last thing Bombers is doing is "ignoring" the 20-4 OOC record; he's looking into it with far more detail than you!

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

You keep insisting you don't have an inferiority complex, then take reasonable analysis from Bomber fans and call it "bitter." The only thing to support your argument is your perception of how Bomber posters think. We're flattered that our opinions have become the litmus test for how you see the E8.

I don't have any problem with Bombers...we have actually had some spirited debate...

I was calling you bitter...not Bombers...which you are.  I wasn't calling out all IC posters...just you.

Feel better now?

[AUKaz00]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

[Yanks 99]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

I think Max is just mad that if Alfred wins their first ever E8 title this year, that Alfred will have exactly as many E8 championships over the last 4 years as Ithaca. 

[dlip]

To dlip it seems as if things are starting to clear up regarding the importation issue. If the NCAA is saying that they want the best four teams in the nation (obviously one can disagree with who they choose) to get the top four seeds in to tourney, regardless of ****ing location, than that would be fine and totally understandable in dlip's mind. Yet, since there are travel restrictions and on top of that the teams in, for example, the Eastern Bracket are ALL ****ING eastern teams with the exception of one wouldn't it just make sense to give a top seed to the best team in that region?

No. It makes sense to give the top seed to the best team in that eight-team cluster of teams. If that cluster can include Mount Union without causing travel issues, then so be it.

Obviously it makes sense to give the top seed to the best team in a certain cluster of teams but thats not the debate here. The debate is about who those teams should be and where they should come from. Also teams could be close to each other and in different regions but the bottom line is that they are if different ****ing regions. You should have to draw the line somewhere.

[SJFF82]

Honestly, I'm not sure how many more times we have to mention this!!  I think people should just prepare themselves for it rather than to incessently complain about it.

Understood, but pg.04 as much as it may be annoying for you to keep hearing about it, which dlip can understand, it is ****ing annoying for some of us to not have an Eastern team get a #1 seed when they run the table. O.K. O.K. dlip won't repeat himself anymore  .

I understand... and I guess it's still possible that an undefeated East team gets the #1 seed.  Just very improbable, in most minds. 

Take a look at my columns the last three years.. i'm always bitching about MUC moving over. If Alfred and Albright go undefeated, do not move MUC.. it's just unfair.

Not fair to the team in another bracket that deserves a No. 1 seed more than Alfred and Albright?

its not fair that....blah blah blah.   This is not about fairness. Its about consistency.  The NCAA D3 runs it reg season in a regional fashion with the rankings, SOS, etc, all regionally based.  Then once play-offs start, in comes MUC?  Again I ask, what is so unfair (if that is going to be the take) about having 2 so-called #1's in the same play-off bracket?  

How many times, under the current system, have all 4 so-called #1's ALL gone on to the Final 4?  If 1 or 2 are traditionally losing somewhere along the way to the Final 4, then who can argue they were more desrving of the #1 than the East team who got relegated to #2 in the East?

On the other hand, if the #1's have consistently weathered the storm to the final 4, then perhaps the system is correct...

[pumkinattack]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

I can see how that could be construed/interpreted, but I don't think that is what this necessarily means.  What it means is that we don't know how good AU or Springfield are, not because of the league, but the lack of a convincing OOC win.  Look back to the E8 in 2006 and some of the OOC wins and compare them to AU and Springfield this year.  I wish Bart and AU had played, and if AU had won, it would help their cause quite a bit, but it's the lack of any defining OOC win by any member of the conference.  Even better would be a decent road win in OOC.  

Somone else was dropping OOC win %, but St John's beat two WIAC schools one of whom is 3-5 and had OOC wins against two other schools with a 9-8 record and and the other is 4-4 with two OOC wins themselves (I'm not getting into any debate questioning the WIAC even if I don't know how good they really are overall).  Linfield's got wins over Hardin Simmons (somewhat down this year at 5-4, but better than anyone on AU or Springfield's OOC schedule) and S Oregon.  Thomas More has a road win over 3-5 John Carroll (using the SJF rule that's 3-4) and plays 8-0 Mt. St. Joseph later this year (on the road).