Author Topic: East Region Playoff Discussion  (Read 586409 times)

Offline unionpalooza

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4485 on: November 25, 2018, 06:57:13 pm »
Indeed, Pat. Also, the metric is just a bad one in general. SJU had fewer than 1,500 guys apply last season, but the quality of those applicants was academically solid. Data without context is dangerous.

The metric is not a bad one, it’s just a single one. No single data point will explain all things.  (And as a data point for “how hard is it to get in football players,” it’s actually a pretty good one.). A good study (which I expressed hope someone would do, didn’t claim to do myself) would look at that and tons of others and try to answer the question: what factors matter?  Academic arguments may be tedious, but the simple fact is (relatively) low admission standards are an important  advantage in any D3 sport.  Of course, there are many others (e.g., like a massive institutional commitment to a program and phenomenal coaching, like Mt Union).  And more difficult admissions standards are no bar to success.  (Heck, Union won a D1(!) hockey title with no scholarship athletes.). But again, if the subject is why do a few programs keep dominating (as mine was), you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think ease of getting players in isn’t part of the recipe for success.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4486 on: November 25, 2018, 07:11:29 pm »
St. John's was my safety school.

It does seem like a really lovely place...

And I should add, of course, that accceptance rates only tell part of the story.  For example, St. John's clocks in 85%, but shows an average SAT in the 1000s.  Wesley clocks in at 60%, but the average SAT is in the 800s.  (Which makes you wonder:  who are all those people NOT getting in there?)

Which, as you noted, is why acceptance rates are only part of the the formula in what makes a good school. And from a perspective of decades out of school, it's easy to see that a good school for one guy might not be the best for another.

For SJU, I'd say that getting students to a rural, all-male campus is much tougher these days than when I was looking at colleges in the '70s. I chose between SJU and Mac and was glad I did. (And, over the years, I've had to help out a family member, who was a Carleton guy ....). 

When I was doing grad work, I found myself between two feuding groups from two strong West Coast universities. The fight: the private school, at least at that time, was more selective, but had a reputation that once accepted, you'd make it through, while the public university was easier to get into, but harder to survive.

Bottom line, though, academic arguments on these boards get a bit tiresome.

(First bold)  True dat.  When I first got to Michigan for grad school, and discovered most of my classmates were undergrads at Ivies, NESCACs, Berkely, etc., my reaction was "Oops, what have you gotten yourself into?!"  Within about three weeks, I realized that I (a guy from a small Illinois school most of my classmates had probably never heard of [IWU, for any newcomers]) was BETTER prepared than the vast majority of them!  Whether or not IWU was the BEST school for me, who the hell knows - it's the only one I attended!  But it worked out just fine. ;)

(Second bold)  Yeah, there is NO one right model.  There is very much a role for those who will take only the "best" as far as that can be determined, and try to make them even better (though I have frequently heard it is virtually impossible to flunk out of Harvard - you might get kicked out for flagrant misconduct, but if you get in, no one flunks out).  There is also very much an important role for those who will take almost anyone willing to try to do the work and try to bring them to the highest level their innate capacity allows (which is often MUCH higher than standardized tests would project).

I taught my whole career at a non-selective regional university (Eastern Michigan U).  My students ranged from those who probably could have succeeded at MIT if only they had the contacts and confidence, to those whose reasons for being in college were probably a mystery even to themselves.  Quite a challenge when both extremes are in the same class!  I hope I was able to improve the education of both extremes, though I'm dubious.  My own older son (whom I never had in a class, of course) felt totally unchallenged at EMU and transferred to U of M - for him that was clearly the better choice.

Offline wesleydad

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4487 on: November 25, 2018, 07:17:48 pm »
I can only speak to Wesley and my son.  He scored horribly on standardized tests and was recruited by Temple and Kutztown, but they both said his scores had to be higher, which was not going to happen.  Coach Drass said he wanted him to come to Wesley and got him in.  He graduated and had a great experience.  Sometimes kids need to be given a chance and I am glad that Coach Drass and Wesley gave my son one.  That and the experience of playing at the top of D3 from 2005 to 2008 made it even better.  Not everyone is an academic star, but given a chance they will get it done.

Offline repete

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4488 on: November 25, 2018, 08:11:42 pm »
Yep, Wesley dad. I have a very similar story about one of my son's best buddies and a kid I coached in a couple of sports, but will spare you the details because it's that school down Hwy. 13. (In fairness, I did try to get him to Dover.) For him it started at Utica and ended there. He's grown into a fine young man with a great career ahead of him.

And, no, Palooza, acceptance rate alone is not a good measure of  “how hard is it to get in football players.” It means very little little without further data, such as admissions standards. Most admissions officers will tell you that the pools that schools draw their applicants from very greatly for a great number of reasons . . .  and admission standards are only the start. It runs much deeper than that.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 08:18:44 pm by repete »

Offline gordonmann

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4489 on: November 25, 2018, 09:01:39 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 09:04:19 pm by gordonmann »

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4490 on: November 25, 2018, 09:15:10 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.

What about if RPI wins????
New England Small College Athletic Conference

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4491 on: November 25, 2018, 09:48:27 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.

What about if RPI wins????

Not interested enough to research it, but I would assume that RPI also has high academic standards (probably much higher admissions standards than Brockport), so the whole East region whine (by some posters) that they can't compete because they can't get the 'dumb' jocks in is bogus.

That whine offends me on two different grounds (as a career-long educator before retiring c. 10 years ago):

1.  A GOOD school is one which can help lift students as high as they are capable of going, whether it is MIT or a community college.  They are BOTH vital parts of our educational system.  (Which is why I vociferously object to using admissions standards as a criterion of quality.)

2.  A 'dumb' jock, however athletic, is gonna be a failure.  If you can learn the playbook, you can learn the textbook.  If you're not interested in the latter, please go away, before you embarrass the school - and one way or another, you will.

Offline edward de vere

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4492 on: November 25, 2018, 10:07:50 pm »
Wesley went 6 - 4 and probably should have been 10 - 0.

WesleyDad, I generally have a very high regard for your posts but:

"Come on, man!"

Offline edward de vere

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4493 on: November 25, 2018, 10:12:21 pm »
Mr. Ypsi:  I was going to razz you about the Ohio State/Michigan game but your recent posts on this string have been so stellar I will refrain.









(62-39)

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4494 on: November 25, 2018, 10:21:18 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.

What about if RPI wins????

Not interested enough to research it, but I would assume that RPI also has high academic standards (probably much higher admissions standards than Brockport), so the whole East region whine (by some posters) that they can't compete because they can't get the 'dumb' jocks in is bogus.

That whine offends me on two different grounds (as a career-long educator before retiring c. 10 years ago):

1.  A GOOD school is one which can help lift students as high as they are capable of going, whether it is MIT or a community college.  They are BOTH vital parts of our educational system.  (Which is why I vociferously object to using admissions standards as a criterion of quality.)

2.  A 'dumb' jock, however athletic, is gonna be a failure.  If you can learn the playbook, you can learn the textbook.  If you're not interested in the latter, please go away, before you embarrass the school - and one way or another, you will.

+1!

Dumb jock... I remember the College World Series final a few years ago between Stanford and Rice...

I also believe there is a significant amount of hubris and arrogance when one does not acknowledge the multiple types of intelligences, e.g., as described by Howard Gardner.

https://www.tecweb.org/styles/gardner.html

I once encountered a college freshman whose reading level as assessed on the Stanford was 9th grade level, but they graded out as 3 standard deviations above the mean (99.7%, higher than all but 3 per thousand) in visual/spatial intelligence. They had a language processing issue for which they could compensate thruout high school. It was the liberal arts reading requirements that they could not handle.

Would Michael Jordan have been able to matriculate at your alma mater?  He clearly had bodily-kinesthetic intelligence.

Offline repete

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4495 on: November 25, 2018, 10:25:53 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.

What about if RPI wins????

Not interested enough to research it, but I would assume that RPI also has high academic standards (probably much higher admissions standards than Brockport), so the whole East region whine (by some posters) that they can't compete because they can't get the 'dumb' jocks in is bogus.

That whine offends me on two different grounds (as a career-long educator before retiring c. 10 years ago):

1.  A GOOD school is one which can help lift students as high as they are capable of going, whether it is MIT or a community college.  They are BOTH vital parts of our educational system.  (Which is why I vociferously object to using admissions standards as a criterion of quality.)

2.  A 'dumb' jock, however athletic, is gonna be a failure.  If you can learn the playbook, you can learn the textbook.  If you're not interested in the latter, please go away, before you embarrass the school - and one way or another, you will.

This. Thanks, Ypsi.

To be clear, and looking back, I wasn't .... My point wasn't backing palooza's academic argument ...only saying that if you're going to make it, then acceptance rate is a terrible way to start. I have no clue as to the East drought.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4496 on: November 25, 2018, 10:39:22 pm »
Mr. Ypsi:  I was going to razz you about the Ohio State/Michigan game but your recent posts on this string have been so stellar I will refrain.









(62-39)

edv, I was gonna thank you for your mercy - then you had to post that score! ::)

That was truly painful - OSU's best game of the year opposite UM's worst game of the year.  OUCH!!  Statistically the best defense in the country, then yield the most points OSU has EVER scored against UM, and the second most points ANYONE has ever scored against us.  I blame it on my grandkids:  almost 2-year-old Maisie was wearing a UM cheerleader outfit, but napped thru most of the game; we gave 1-month old Ollie UM shoes but no one remembered to put them on him!

Offline RtSLl3100

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4497 on: November 25, 2018, 10:42:57 pm »
I don't know if academic standards are the reason that the East can't produce an elite Division III football team. But considering that Johns Hopkins is one win away from winning the "East" bracket, this is not a good time to raise that question.
Considering JHU is a South region team only helps that the East does not have a “powerhouse” but the committee is tasked to create the best bracket that doesn’t break the NCAA budget. But what’s the point of playing on Saturday if upsets aren’t possible; if that was the fact then UMU should just be crowned the National Champ since they have been #1 all year. Give credit when it’s due; JHU, RPI, Muhlenburg all played and won to be in the QF

Offline edward de vere

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4498 on: November 25, 2018, 10:45:46 pm »
we gave 1-month old Ollie UM shoes but no one remembered to put them on him!

Ollie's a month old and can't put his own damn shoes on?  Kids today. 

(Sigh)

Offline repete

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Re: East Region Playoff Discussion
« Reply #4499 on: November 25, 2018, 10:51:14 pm »
That's ok. Maybe he can play college ball in the North, South or West.