Author Topic: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference  (Read 608110 times)

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4800 on: March 24, 2020, 10:58:07 pm »
At least you mentioned someone ... because when it comes to it, someone has to be removed to put someone on the team.

But there was no chance Delaney wasn't going to be an All-Region selection along with being an All-American selection. His impact for Hopkins, the conference (Player of the Year, by the way), and region were far bigger than nearly anyone else in the Mid-Atlantic.

I'm not saying others weren't good, too, but I don't think you will find anyone saying Delaney shouldn't be on any of the teams were was awarded.

And Massey isn't going to suddenly change my mind. I'd suggest another argument if one exists. But considering Swarthmore is #1 and Hopkins rose to be a top ten team ... yes, Centennial has a lot of strength. But, I am not going to get into what you think we think. I know the CAC is half the size of the Centennial, so trying to compare them is pointless. The top of the Centennial is stronger, in my opinion, the middle is about the same ... but at that point we run out of teams to talk about in the CAC.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4801 on: March 24, 2020, 10:59:35 pm »
And I'm the guy who goes to and watching games in nearly ever conference in this region ... so you aren't going to find me with a care for the argument that somehow the CAC is disrespected. I've spent FAR more time even thinking about the CAC than nearly any other conference in this country. Talking to people in the CAC and working with news from this conference. If there was disrespect, I wouldn't waste the time because then I wouldn't care.
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Offline D3RetiredHooper

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4802 on: March 24, 2020, 11:13:25 pm »
I know your job is hard and obviously a lot of players feel shafted when you make your selections.  I feel the CAC as a whole has been underrated massively by D3Hoops in recent years (Mary Washington would have been the 3rd best team in the Centennial this year).

The fact that only ONE player was put on your D3hoops MA all-region teams and ZERO CAC players were put on your AA teams shows some disrespect from a national perspective. It's pretty obvious the CAC is a top 10 conference the past 5 years in the country and deserved to have at least 2 teams this season in your D3Hoops Top 25. 

It would be nice for a D3Hoops media member to come down for a big CAC game (IE York vs CNU) instead of watching elite teams play bottom feeders of the Centennial and the Landmark!

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4803 on: March 24, 2020, 11:34:54 pm »
I know your job is hard and obviously a lot of players feel shafted when you make your selections.  I feel the CAC as a whole has been underrated massively by D3Hoops in recent years (Mary Washington would have been the 3rd best team in the Centennial this year).

The fact that only ONE player was put on your D3hoops MA all-region teams and ZERO CAC players were put on your AA teams shows some disrespect from a national perspective. It's pretty obvious the CAC is a top 10 conference the past 5 years in the country and deserved to have at least 2 teams this season in your D3Hoops Top 25. 

It would be nice for a D3Hoops media member to come down for a big CAC game (IE York vs CNU) instead of watching elite teams play bottom feeders of the Centennial and the Landmark!

Considering the drop off in both the CAC and the Centennial from the top two to the next group of teams in each conference ... saying Mary Wash would have been #3 in the Centennial isn't saying much. Though, considering how good Haverford and Muhlenberg were this year, I don't think Mary Wash being #3 is an easy sell (Haverford did fade late). Mary Wash was good, but if they were in the Centennial I think it plays out much differently.

And I'm sorry ... but do you want to go through the number of conferences that didn't get any All-Americans? There are 25 slots ... with 40+ conferences, not even every Player of the Year is going to get a slot. How many conferences do you think are "disrespected" because we didn't include them? I haven't thought about the top conferences in awhile, but I would put CAC in the Top 15, I'm not sure the Top 10.

And don't say look at how one team has done the last few years ... Cabrini was a power for several years, did that mean the CSAC was a Top 15 conference? Yeshiva was an incredible team this year. Does that mean the Skyline is Top 15? I don't even know if I would put the Centennial in the Top 10 (off the top of my head, in no particular order: WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, UAA, ODAC, SUNYAC, NEWMAC, NCAC, OAC, ARC are probably in my top ten before I consider CAC or Centennial ... and that leaves out MIAC [top heavy this season], NWC [three-teams deep on top this season], and others).

BTW - D3hoops media has been to big CAC games ... we just don't advertise it all the time. But go ahead and keep assuming you know where we go all the time. Furthermore speaking from a personal perspective, I have to work ... so I am going to go to games as well where I am being paid. So you can take a snarky shot at some of the games I'm at ... but most of the time it's because that's where I'm getting paid to be. Also, those are the gyms closest to me ... though, YCP not that far and I have been there for YCP v CNU on several occasions ... but you know all, right?
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4804 on: March 24, 2020, 11:38:29 pm »
BTW - you do realize I graduated from a CAC school (at the time) and played college sports in the CAC, right? You seem to be making assumptions about who we are without real knowledge. I mean, I can take guesses at who you are too, but what is the point? I'm rather up front about who I am.
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Offline D3RetiredHooper

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4805 on: March 25, 2020, 12:34:26 am »
I mean no disrespect at D3hoops for who you are or what you do.  I understand you guys do a great job promoting our sport to the general public.   

But my point is the CAC is stronger than D3Hoops has portrayed in the last 5 years. One player in the first or second team MA All-Region D3Hoops Team and zero in the AA teams from the CAC is a pretty hard knock and disrespectful given the general competitiveness of the conference.  If you have an argument about that fact I would love to hear it!

Yes there are 42 conferences but the CAC has been a 2-bid league (sometimes 3-bid) for many years and rated in the top 10 on average for the last 5 years according to Massey and 7th this year according to Matt Snyder's Efficiency Rating.  If there is a better Conference Rating system then would love to hear it!

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4806 on: March 25, 2020, 12:47:45 am »

"We" don't pick the All-Region teams, per say.  There's a panel of voters across the region, with every conference represented.

When it comes to All-Americans, those are tough decisions.  I'll just speak for myself, outside of conference POYs, I can't think of a single time I've associated a player with their conference in the process.  I don't know how the other people think about it, but I try very hard to separate players from their teams, even, and consider them on their individual merits.

It's absolutely, 100% right to be upset Wagner wasn't on the AA list.  I'm upset about it.  There's 40 guys for 25 slots.  The simple math means disappointment.  He deserved a spot and there wasn't a spot for him.
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Offline D3RetiredHooper

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4807 on: March 25, 2020, 01:12:18 am »
And don't say look at how one team has done the last few years ... Cabrini was a power for several years, did that mean the CSAC was a Top 15 conference? Yeshiva was an incredible team this year. Does that mean the Skyline is Top 15? I don't even know if I would put the Centennial in the Top 10 (off the top of my head, in no particular order: WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, UAA, ODAC, SUNYAC, NEWMAC, NCAC, OAC, ARC are probably in my top ten before I consider CAC or Centennial ... and that leaves out MIAC [top heavy this season], NWC [three-teams deep on top this season], and others).


This is my general point.  The CAC deserves to be rated close if not above some of the conferences you mentioned. 

CNU has made 2 final fours in the past 5 years (and had a home game against Hobart to go back to Fort Wayne).

York has won NCAA tournament games in 3 straight years.

The Mid-Atlantic Region should be considered one of the top 2 or 3 regions in the country.

The D3Hoops Top 25 poll and D3 All-American and D3 All-Region Selections do not reflect the general strength of the CAC conference, this is my overall point.  If I am not accurate in my points I would to hear a solid argument why I am wrong!

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4808 on: March 25, 2020, 09:17:44 am »

Personally, I've never attempted to rank conferences.  You might be right,  though.
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Offline jmcozenlaw

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4809 on: March 25, 2020, 10:44:08 am »
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......................F irst World Problems!!!!

USA, USA, USA...............

It's nice to live in a country where this is considered a "big" issue. ;)

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4810 on: March 25, 2020, 02:16:36 pm »
And don't say look at how one team has done the last few years ... Cabrini was a power for several years, did that mean the CSAC was a Top 15 conference? Yeshiva was an incredible team this year. Does that mean the Skyline is Top 15? I don't even know if I would put the Centennial in the Top 10 (off the top of my head, in no particular order: WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, UAA, ODAC, SUNYAC, NEWMAC, NCAC, OAC, ARC are probably in my top ten before I consider CAC or Centennial ... and that leaves out MIAC [top heavy this season], NWC [three-teams deep on top this season], and others).


This is my general point.  The CAC deserves to be rated close if not above some of the conferences you mentioned. 

CNU has made 2 final fours in the past 5 years (and had a home game against Hobart to go back to Fort Wayne).

York has won NCAA tournament games in 3 straight years.

The Mid-Atlantic Region should be considered one of the top 2 or 3 regions in the country.

The D3Hoops Top 25 poll and D3 All-American and D3 All-Region Selections do not reflect the general strength of the CAC conference, this is my overall point.  If I am not accurate in my points I would to hear a solid argument why I am wrong!

You aren't going to listen to any argument and won't indicate it is a "solid" one unless it somehow makes you stop arguing. Considering I don't think the later is going to happen, I'm not inclined to continue discussing something with a recently graduated player who probably hasn't seen the national score of the division outside of the games he played or maybe watched occasionally.

The CAC is a good conference. You keep making it seem like "we" think it is a lousy conference. You seem to think the only way we "respect" the conference is if "we" agree with your opinion and move them into some level you have determined.

And you seem to both ignore my point while highlighting another. Cabrini was a powerhouse team and made it to the championship game .. didn't prove the CSAC was suddenly a top ten conference, right? Yes, CNU has made some great runs. They have been a very well coached team, but tournament success is not just based on a team's ability, but also the road and bracket before them. Sometimes teams have tougher trips than others, so trying to use that as a barometer is flawed at best.

F&M for years tried to portray themselves as one of the best teams in the country because of their final four appearances, but the tournament process at the time meant they were coming out of the easiest quadrant almost every year. Interesting that once the system has gotten somewhat more competitive in terms of spreading teams out, that same success hasn't been there. CNU hasn't had the same road to hoe as Central teams for sure and even Great Lakes and West teams. But because they are in the final four that means the conference is somehow a top ten? Because YCP has won games in the NCAA tournament that means the CAC is somehow a power? Nothing against YCP who I voted for quite often in the Top 25 this season, but this year they played an average at best SJF team and last year played DeSales which hasn't been a power or strong team in a number of years. Three years ago they beat up-and-coming Yeshiva without it's best player and that was probably one of the best YCP teams I've seen.

A measure of a conference isn't how the first round does, it is how they do further than that. CNU is the only team to get out of the first weekend in now six years when Mary Washington pulled off a miraculous season and run. The last time Salisbury got to the second weekend since 1997 (and once more in 1992). Any other success has to go back to when Catholic was in the league.

CAC is competitive for sure, but it isn't some power. I think until recently the MAC Commonwealth has been one of the most underrated conferences in the country. It has a beast from top to bottom, but they have never been able to get into the "top" anything conversation because they never produce strong teams that can compete nationally. CAC at least has CNU and YCP now in the mix (though, about to lose YCP so this going to be a moot point). But outside of CNU, the national mantle has never been able to rest on any other shoulders. That doesn't make for a power conference.

WIAC has had a number of teams compete for national championships just in this century (and decade) alone along with other teams that have proven themselves to the second weekend routinely. Same goes for the CCIW. The ODAC has slipped a bit, but usually produces powerhouse programs and sees multiple teams be a threat. The NESCAC's resume speaks for itself. The NEWMAC has more threats every year than the CAC ... and I could go on and on.

The CAC has had CNU and now YCP. That's it. Mary Wash was far more competitive this season, but they also haven't been able to get over the hump to cause people to take notice. Salisbury has been all over the place for years. Southern Virginia isn't turning any heads. PSU-Harrisburg finally turned some heads, but they did it once out of the CAC.

I am sorry if you don't think the conference is respected, but I am telling you as one who talks DIII basketball quite a bit ... you couldn't be more wrong. Just because awards aren't handed out as much as you feel they should has no bearing on the respect level. I don't look at a player and dismiss them because of the team and conference. It is one of the things that has had me appreciate how much good talent is around this country on so many different teams. We named the best player in the country on LeTourneau this season. The Coach of the Year from Yeshiva. The All-America teams had only two teams that saw multiple players (just one on the women's side). We are naming a LOT of schools and by default a number of conferences. But there isn't room for everyone.

And telling us "we don't respect the CAC" isn't going to suddenly have us change our minds, either. It is a lazy argument based on nothing factual or actual. It is all based on assumptions that I have told you is inaccurate (especially considering two of the four main people at D3hoops.com came up through then-CAC schools).
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Re: MBB: Capital Athletic Conference
« Reply #4811 on: March 25, 2020, 04:36:11 pm »
This is kind of a moot point, considering that no matter what we might be believed to collectively think, it will be different when the conference no longer has one of its powers this fall.
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