Author Topic: Conference changes  (Read 145157 times)

Offline Caz Bombers

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1130
  • Karma: +164/-30
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1035 on: May 28, 2020, 12:29:04 pm »
Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC.

So the LMC and the NIIC combined, with a different conference name. But the CAC takes all the ACAA teams and changes the name, but that's different somehow?

Also, you can't compare what the CAC/ACAA "merger" as "Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC" because the ARC just changed their name, they didn't add a different conference's members.

I don't know when that other merger occurred, but were the LMC and NIIC both Pool A conferences at the time? It sounds like neither of them were so pouring one group into the other would not have had the desired effect.

In the present, the CAC, which has A bids, absorbs the ACAA members to keep those A bids where possible, the ACAA ceases to exist, and then at some point down the road the CAC will change its name to reflect its new makeup. I guess I don't see what's supposedly so shady about this.

Offline gordonmann

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4373
  • Karma: +561/-53
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1036 on: May 28, 2020, 12:29:42 pm »
Maybe it's a governance thing, like the NACC creation involved the creation of a new entity while the CAC-ACAA move involves one swallowing the other?

I don't know, just making a guess.

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 23841
  • Karma: +2858/-919
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1037 on: May 28, 2020, 12:51:46 pm »
There's two definitions of the word merger:

1. a statutory combination of two or more corporations by the transfer of the properties to one surviving corporation.

2. any combination of two or more business enterprises into a single enterprise.

The first definition describes what just happened with the CAC and ACAA. The CAC absorbed the ACAA. The CAC still exists as a recognized entity; it's simply grown larger by swallowing another entity, much as a boa constrictor that swallows a mouse is still the same boa constrictor, only bigger. The world of sports is filled with examples of this type of merger. The AFL merged into the NFL, which remained the NFL; the WHA merged into the NHL, which remained the NHL; and the ABA merged into the NBA, which remained the NBA.

The second definition describes what happened when the LMC and the NIIC combined to form the NACC. Two entities disappeared, and a brand-new one was created. In an effort to be fair to the schools in each of those two leagues, the old names, charters, offices, bylaws, etc., were abandoned and new ones encompassing all of the members of the new league were created. This is more like combining a can of red paint and a can of blue paint to create two cans of purple paint. There is no more red paint to be found anywhere in those two cans, nor is there any blue paint. It's all purple paint. And the NCAA says, "Well, we will let you use the red paint in March, and we'll let you use the blue paint in March, but if you want to use purple paint you'll have to wait two years until we have furniture to match it." ;)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 06:18:31 pm by Gregory Sager »
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Inkblot

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 120
  • Karma: +50/-3
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1038 on: May 28, 2020, 01:13:59 pm »
Why was the NACC able to inherit the IBFC's auto bid in football without going through the waiting period?
Moderator of /r/CFB

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 12883
  • Karma: +786/-368
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1039 on: May 28, 2020, 02:23:14 pm »
Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC.

So the LMC and the NIIC combined, with a different conference name. But the CAC takes all the ACAA teams and changes the name, but that's different somehow?

Also, you can't compare what the CAC/ACAA "merger" as "Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC" because the ARC just changed their name, they didn't add a different conference's members.

Well, they added Nebraska Wesleyan.  A lot of the New England conference swip swap members all the time - if they also changed names at the same time, would you want them to go back to square one for AQs?  I don't see the problem with this.

The NCAA recognizes conferences - once you have recognition, you're eligible for AQs when you qualify.  I don't believe there's a waiting period if schools within an existing conference add sports in sufficient numbers to get an AQ, is there?

It's all about the official recognition of the league.  That's why they're trying to make it a little more difficult for conferences to gain recognition - and likely why the ACAA schools jumped at this chance to get it immediately.

I don't follow football, so I don't know all the specifics, but I know the CCC merged with a football only conference a few years back (one that consisted almost entirely of CCC schools), and just assumed the football AQ.  I'm guessing this was because the CCC was already a recognized conference, so once they had seven schools offering the sport, they got the AQ right away.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Offline huskereddy

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1040 on: May 28, 2020, 03:37:38 pm »
Why was the NACC able to inherit the IBFC's auto bid in football without going through the waiting period?
Wizards of the board feel free to pick me apart here, but the NACC didn't technically inherit the Illini-Badger AQ. Since the NACC was formed under a new charter, it had to wait two years across the board for AQs (06/07, 07/08), which it did. Once the fall of 2008 rolled around, they had eight core members sponsoring football - five in the IBFC plus Rockford (UMAC), WLC (MIAA) and Maranatha - so they brought football under their own umbrella and could be awarded an AQ in their own right. I think they've done this since with men's volleyball and men's and women's lacrosse.

Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC.

So the LMC and the NIIC combined, with a different conference name. But the CAC takes all the ACAA teams and changes the name, but that's different somehow?

Also, you can't compare what the CAC/ACAA "merger" as "Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC" because the ARC just changed their name, they didn't add a different conference's members.

Well, they added Nebraska Wesleyan.  A lot of the New England conference swip swap members all the time - if they also changed names at the same time, would you want them to go back to square one for AQs?  I don't see the problem with this.

The NCAA recognizes conferences - once you have recognition, you're eligible for AQs when you qualify.  I don't believe there's a waiting period if schools within an existing conference add sports in sufficient numbers to get an AQ, is there?

I don't follow football, so I don't know all the specifics, but I know the CCC merged with a football only conference a few years back (one that consisted almost entirely of CCC schools), and just assumed the football AQ.  I'm guessing this was because the CCC was already a recognized conference, so once they had seven schools offering the sport, they got the AQ right away.

CCC's situation is a little different. They assumed administrative operations of the NEFC and rebranded as CCC Football while retaining the NEFC charter. There are only six core CCC members sponsoring football (Becker/Husson are associates) and, I believe, the magic number is seven core members (plus some time element that escapes me) to be able to receive an AQ while bypassing the waiting period.

Offline Greek Tragedy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 13324
  • Karma: +1000/-349
  • I'm my dad's mini-me!
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1041 on: May 28, 2020, 04:21:09 pm »
Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC.

So the LMC and the NIIC combined, with a different conference name. But the CAC takes all the ACAA teams and changes the name, but that's different somehow?

Also, you can't compare what the CAC/ACAA "merger" as "Same conference, new name. They keep the AQ, like the ARC" because the ARC just changed their name, they didn't add a different conference's members.

Well, they added Nebraska Wesleyan. 

They added one team and that was even before they changed the name.
Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11402
  • Karma: +838/-531
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1042 on: May 29, 2020, 03:18:48 pm »
GT - I call what the CAC and ACAA are doing as a "merger" as it brings the entirety of both conferences together into one. However, as I have said from the get-go, they are doing it under the umbrella of the CAC - thus the CAC calls it an expansion (the ACAA dissolves and it's members are welcomed into the CAC). This happens in business all the time. Burger King bought Tim Hortons, but Hortons was the entity they used for paperwork so that it could be located in Canada and not the US (tax reasons and such).

The ACAA and CAC have come together, but under the CAC umbrella so they can keep the status of the CAC intact. They will later change the name, but name changes happen all of the time. It is still the CAC board, office, etc. that is in charge of this group with the ACAA elements going away.

As long as there are four core members of the CAC still around, this is fine ... and there are as they did it for the coming academic year. This would be a VERY different conversation if we were a year from now. The CAC's core would have been down to three and basically the two groups would have been starting from zero.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 23841
  • Karma: +2858/-919
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1043 on: May 29, 2020, 07:22:20 pm »
GT - I call what the CAC and ACAA are doing as a "merger" as it brings the entirety of both conferences together into one. However, as I have said from the get-go, they are doing it under the umbrella of the CAC - thus the CAC calls it an expansion (the ACAA dissolves and it's members are welcomed into the CAC). This happens in business all the time. Burger King bought Tim Hortons, but Hortons was the entity they used for paperwork so that it could be located in Canada and not the US (tax reasons and such).

Yep. It's a merger, but "expansion" is a more business-friendly term than "merger," because it implies the organic growth of a healthy, burgeoning company rather than the mere acquisition of another brand's assets as the result of a deal cooked up in some boardroom.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Greek Tragedy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 13324
  • Karma: +1000/-349
  • I'm my dad's mini-me!
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1044 on: June 01, 2020, 12:13:16 am »
Thanks. As I asked all along, I just wanted to know what the difference was between the ACAA/CAC merger and the LMC/NIIC merger was. It seems it's been answered. I appreciate it.
Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

Offline Greek Tragedy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 13324
  • Karma: +1000/-349
  • I'm my dad's mini-me!
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1045 on: June 01, 2020, 12:22:05 am »
Bumping this forward with very little confirmed in a land where uncertainty is king. Feel free to correct or confirm. :)

Provisional Pipeline for 2020-21
First year full members: Brevard, Dean, Pfeiffer
*3rd year provisional members: SUNY Delhi, Johnson and Wales (Colo.)
2nd year provisional members: Pratt, University of St Thomas (Texas), Mississippi University for Women.
1st year provisional members: Bob Jones, Warren Wilson (confirmed)
Exploratory: Manor College (confirmed)
*Games against Year 3 and 4 provisional members count the same as games against full-members for regional-ranking and tournament selection purposes

MacMurray (SLIAC) closes its doors.
Pine Manor (ACAA) will merge with Boston College after a two-year "teach out" period, though no word on athletics for 2020-21 season

Conference Changes Starting in 2020-2021
Arcadia shifts from the MAC Commonwealth to the MAC Freedom
Cazenovia leaves the NEAC for the NAC
Eastern shifts from the MAC Freedom to the MAC Commonwealth
Dean leaves the NECC for the GNAC
Franciscan leaves the AMCC for the Presidents' Athletic Conference
Keuka leaves the NEAC for the E8
Lycoming shifts from the MAC Commonwealth to the MAC Freedom
Suffolk leaves the GNAC for the CCC
SUNY Cobleskill leaves the NEAC for the NAC
SUNY Delhi leaves the ACAA for the NAC
SUNY Poly leaves the NEAC for the NAC
Valley Forge leaves the ACAA for the CSAC
York (Pa.) leaves the CAC for the MAC Commonwealth

Conference Changes Starting in 2021-2022
Mary Baldwin will add men's program, begin play in the USA South (tentative)
Southern Virginia leaves the CAC for the USA South
St. Mary's (Md.) leaves the CAC for the NEAC
St. Norbert leaves the MWC for the NACC
St. Thomas involuntarily removed from MIAC, will go to ???


Most people have probably heard, but St. Scholastica to join the MIAC for 2021-2022 season. Macalester coming back for football as well.

https://csssaints.com/news/2020/5/27/general-st-scholastica-to-join-the-minnesota-intercollegiate-athletic-conference.aspx

Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

Offline gordonmann

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4373
  • Karma: +561/-53
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1046 on: June 01, 2020, 09:56:38 am »
Thanks! So now we have...

Provisional Pipeline for 2020-21
First year full members: Brevard, Dean, Pfeiffer
*3rd year provisional members: SUNY Delhi, Johnson and Wales (Colo.)
2nd year provisional members: Pratt, University of St Thomas (Texas), Mississippi University for Women.
1st year provisional members: Bob Jones, Warren Wilson (confirmed)
Exploratory: Manor College (confirmed)

*Games against Year 3 and 4 provisional members count the same as games against full-members for regional-ranking and tournament selection purposes

MacMurray (SLIAC) closes its doors.

Conference Changes Starting in 2020-2021
Arcadia shifts from the MAC Commonwealth to the MAC Freedom
Cazenovia leaves the NEAC for the NAC
Eastern shifts from the MAC Freedom to the MAC Commonwealth
Finlandia joins the CAC as part of the ACAA-CAC merger
Dean leaves the NECC for the GNAC
Franciscan leaves the AMCC for the Presidents' Athletic Conference
Keuka leaves the NEAC for the E8
Lycoming shifts from the MAC Commonwealth to the MAC Freedom
Pine Manor joins the CAC as part of the ACAA-CAC merger*
Pratt joins the CAC as part of the ACAA-CAC merger
Suffolk leaves the GNAC for the CCC
SUNY Cobleskill leaves the NEAC for the NAC
SUNY Delhi leaves the ACAA for the NAC
SUNY Poly leaves the NEAC for the NAC
UC Santa Cruz joins the CAC as part of the ACAA-CAC merger
Valley Forge leaves the ACAA for the CSAC
York (Pa.) leaves the CAC for the MAC Commonwealth

* Pine Manor announced that it will close its doors and be absorbed into Boston College after a two-year "teach out period." The CAC-ACAA press release indicates Pine Manor will compete in the CAC in 2020-21 and then "depart the conference," assumedly with athletics closing before 2021-22.

Conference Changes Starting in 2021-2022
Mary Baldwin will add men's program, begin play in the USA South (tentative)
Southern Virginia leaves the CAC for the USA South
St. Mary's (Md.) leaves the CAC for the NEAC
St. Norbert leaves the MWC for the NACC
St. Thomas involuntarily removed from MIAC, will go to ???
St. Scholastica leaves the UMAC for the MIAC
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 09:59:07 am by gordonmann »

Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 28781
  • Karma: +1835/-402
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1047 on: June 01, 2020, 12:02:55 pm »
With Dean's departure from the NECC, the NECC men have only 6 teams in 2020-21.

Any news of dominos shuffling around the NECC?

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11402
  • Karma: +838/-531
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1048 on: June 01, 2020, 01:22:43 pm »
With Dean's departure from the NECC, the NECC men have only 6 teams in 2020-21.

Any news of dominos shuffling around the NECC?

I have had plenty of talks with individuals trying to piece things together. I think some of this is up in the air due to the expected closings of schools - just the unknown of exactly why they will be. (There are certainly schools on everyone's radars, but as McMurray and Urbana [DII] has shown there can be some that are on no one's radar).

I could envision the NECC splitting and those schools going in different directions. The NAC, GNAC, etc. could be easy landing places - though, I would feel bad for schools like Eastern Nazarene who just settled in to the NECC.

I could also envision other conferences splitting up and the NECC being the beneficiary of those moves.

I think we need to wait and see a bit. Even ideas I am hearing now could change six ways to Sunday in the next week, month, year.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11402
  • Karma: +838/-531
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1049 on: June 01, 2020, 01:42:04 pm »
Another item - D'Youville is planning to go to Division II. We are just waiting for DII to formally accept them. That is usually a early to mid-July decision if memory serves.

It would be for the coming academic year.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.