TOP 25

[HScoach]

.......Call it art. Call it science. Call it artscience if you want. I'm not sure it really matters so long as people keep the poll itself in proper perspective.........

What about the "Dart Board Method"?  That's my personal favorite.

[redswarm81]

Maybe I'm being a little too blunt, but don't mistake that for a reluctance to be challenged on the merits of my particular voters or an unwillingness to discuss my particular thought process.

But if this ...

I don't blame people for going beyond the numbers a bit to make sure their ballots accurately reflect how they feel about the strength of the teams they rank. . . . Everything you mentioned is a factor.  But there's also the human element, which is on one hand a welcome dose of inexactness. . . . at the time, I was using something and not randomly slotting teams whereever or on "gut feel" alone.

I don't blame people either.  I'm just trying to figure out where the"using something" ends and where the feeling starts. 

... is what you're trying to determine, I don't know how I'm supposed to answer that on behalf of everybody. My guess is it varies from voter to voter.

Of course it varies from voter to voter, and I'm not asking or expecting you to answer on behalf of every voter.  However, with you and I being two committed pontificators, and especially with you being both willing and able to explain the often complicated reasoning behind your poll voting, I end up asking the often complicated questions primarily of you, and not of the other 24.

It varies from voter to voter, and I suspect that there are several voters who do a lot more "gut feeling" and a lot less "using something" than you do.

As I know I've mentioned elsewhere, e.g. on the East Region Fan Poll page, I are A en-guh-neer, and as such I am trained to abhor an unbalanced equation--that's why I'm prone to point out inconsistencies in the lengths of blades of grass, even when the lawn is freshly mowed.  And yes, polling is conducted by humans, whose emotion chips cannot be easily disabled.

I had a problem with conference reputation and SOS reliance being a major factor in barring teams, especially undefeated ones or ones whose losses came to teams rated higher than another team had played, from the playoffs under the old 16-team system. In light of the AQ system, I advocate the use of those factors in the creation of a top 25 poll.

BUT--and this is a compliment--you don't advocate the use of those factors so much as, for example, to give St. John's a presumptive top ten ranking, as it's obvious many other poll voters have sometimes done.

I think for the most part you've explained your approach to poll voting as one that has a lot of merit, and is quite defensible.  I mean, after all, you're credited with identifying the "McMillan Paradox" where Team A, which has defeated Team B head-to-head, is ranked below Team B, despite the teams having the same or similar records.

Where you and I might differ on this particular forum topic--besides the fact that I'll never have the patience (or the obsessive-compulsive interest, frankly ) to participate in something like the d3football.com Top 25 Poll--is you're more willing than I am to accept subjective analysis techniques when objective data are available.

[Mr. Ypsi]

But, redswarm, if 'objective' is the over-riding concern, just copy out Massey.  (Of course, some human had to program the computer, and decide WHICH objective facts receive HOW MUCH weight.)

[redswarm81]

But, redswarm, if 'objective' is the over-riding concern, just copy out Massey.  (Of course, some human had to program the computer, and decide WHICH objective facts receive HOW MUCH weight.)

You answered your own question, the same way that I would have.  Thanks.

Ultimately, and I might have mentioned this before, the only immutable law in college football is

On any given Saturday . . .

As such, polls can never be completely reliable in predicting which team would win on a neutral field.  For that matter, even playoffs don't necessarily determine the theoretical best team based on all available evidence, they only determine the team that strung together the most given Saturdays with favorable outcomes.

[redswarm81]

I mean, after all, you're credited with identifying the "McMillan Paradox" where Team A, which has defeated Team B head-to-head, is ranked below Team B, despite the teams having the same or similar records.

I regret missing an opportunity to go all OCD on a Week 2 - 6 McMillan Paradox, when Delaware Valley was ranked several spots lower than Wesley, whom DelVal had beaten head to head.

The McMillan Paradox was complicated in Week 6, when Wesley beat Iona, thus introducing the Common Opponent Dilemma, since DelVAl's one loss was to Iona.

(Any other PPers suffer from the affliction of reflexively thinking "kappa, lambda, mu, nu, xi, omicron, . . ." every time he hears or reads "Iona?")

[Ralph Turner]

I mean, after all, you're credited with identifying the "McMillan Paradox" where Team A, which has defeated Team B head-to-head, is ranked below Team B, despite the teams having the same or similar records.

I regret missing an opportunity to go all OCD on a Week 2 - 6 McMillan Paradox, when Delaware Valley was ranked several spots lower than Wesley, whom DelVal had beaten head to head.

The McMillan Paradox was complicated in Week 6, when Wesley beat Iona, thus introducing the Common Opponent Dilemma, since DelVAl's one loss was to Iona.

(Any other PPers suffer from the affliction of reflexively thinking "kappa, lambda, mu, nu, xi, omicron, . . ." every time he hears or reads "Iona?")

That is geekiness unparalleled, even down to the "teal" font color!  +1!   

[K-Mack]

.......Call it art. Call it science. Call it artscience if you want. I'm not sure it really matters so long as people keep the poll itself in proper perspective.........

What about the "Dart Board Method"?  That's my personal favorite.

So that's how Principia got that No. 1 vote.

[K-Mack]

Of course it varies from voter to voter, and I'm not asking or expecting you to answer on behalf of every voter.  However, with you and I being two committed pontificators, and especially with you being both willing and able to explain the often complicated reasoning behind your poll voting, I end up asking the often complicated questions primarily of you, and not of the other 24.

It varies from voter to voter, and I suspect that there are several voters who do a lot more "gut feeling" and a lot less "using something" than you do.

That makes sense, since yes, I am often here to explain.

And I suspect the same.

As I know I've mentioned elsewhere, e.g. on the East Region Fan Poll page, I are A en-guh-neer, and as such I am trained to abhor an unbalanced equation--that's why I'm prone to point out inconsistencies in the lengths of blades of grass, even when the lawn is freshly mowed.  And yes, polling is conducted by humans, whose emotion chips cannot be easily disabled.

Ah yes. I am a journalist, trained to examine the matter from all possible angles, taking into account the emotion of the story, but when necessary suppressing my own.

BUT--and this is a compliment--you don't advocate the use of those factors so much as, for example, to give St. John's a presumptive top ten ranking, as it's obvious many other poll voters have sometimes done.

I think for the most part you've explained your approach to poll voting as one that has a lot of merit, and is quite defensible.  I mean, after all, you're credited with identifying the "McMillan Paradox" where Team A, which has defeated Team B head-to-head, is ranked below Team B, despite the teams having the same or similar records.

Where you and I might differ on this particular forum topic--besides the fact that I'll never have the patience (or the obsessive-compulsive interest, frankly ) to participate in something like the d3football.com Top 25 Poll--is you're more willing than I am to accept subjective analysis techniques when objective data are available.

OK, so we're clear, I hate the paradox that is named after me.

And I do prefer the use of objective data when available. But a lot of data seems to fall somewhere between objective and subjective, for instance, it's objectively true that Team A beat Team B by 14, and Team B beat Team C by 7, but it's subjective to assume Team A is 21 points better than Team C, is it not?

Polling is rather obessive-compulsive, isn't it?

[redswarm81]

And I do prefer the use of objective data when available. But a lot of data seems to fall somewhere between objective and subjective, for instance, it's objectively true that Team A beat Team B by 14, and Team B beat Team C by 7, but it's subjective to assume Team A is 21 points better than Team C, is it not?

Actually no, that is objective--but it's highly unreliable, since it's objectively extrapolating from two tenuously related data points.  Not to mention the countless other variables (e.g. weather, location of games, injuries) that are being overlooked.

Polling is rather obessive-compulsive, isn't it?

Rather?  Yes, I suppose it is, just as without anesthesia, tooth extraction is rather painful.   

[HScoach]

Who is the new #2?

North Central?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Who is the new #2?

North Central?

Don't speak too quickly - Wheaton has scored two quick tds and cut the lead to 37-21 with nearly 13 minutes to play.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Final AT Wheaton: NCC 44, Wheaton 21.

With UWW and UMHB both going down, and Muhlenberg apparently struggling to beat underwhelming F&M, I'll stick my neck out with MUC now unanimously #1, then a dogfight for #2 among a number of teams - I'll say (all within a few points of one another) 2. NCC, 3. Wabash, 4. Muhlenberg, 5. UWW, 6. UMHB.

[dc_has_been]

I always enjoy seeing what teams take the place of the teams that fall out of the top 25.  I would guess Capital, Delaware Valley, & Linfield will drop out, & they will be replaced (in no particular order) UW-Stevens Point, Montclair State, & Monmouth.  Maybe Franklin or Trine has a shot, but less than stellar victories I doubt it.

[muledaddy]

Mates,

The 2,3,4 teams lost. Muhlenberg won. The torrential downpour, the 30-40 mph gusting winds, and a team

hell bent on pulling off the conference upset of the year could not beat them down. The CC conference is much improved, truly giving meaning to the truth that "any given Saturday" any team can win.See the league upsets this year and  the near upsets, every week. Let's give this proven team (2nd round play off  contender last year) and an improved stronger CC a fair shake in the poll voting this week...only what
the continued unbeaten Mules (with a 300lb O line, a 64% qb, and a national top 10 RB)..truly deserve and have earned.

[JT]

The NAIA should have an impact today.  It did for me, MHB lost by 12, 40-28 to NAIA So. Oregon.  Earlier in the season, Willamette beat So. Oregon 31-23, and Linfield beat So. Oregon 14-7.  Usually out of DIII games, may or may not have impact on the top 25, but this time, at least for me, it made Willamette look really good.  I moved them up and over some teams.