Author Topic: Tournament Snubs  (Read 14314 times)

Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 27872
  • Karma: +1738/-376
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2009, 06:10:08 pm »
sounds like that's the case for d3nut 's concern, that he's worried it's his team getting snubbed. BigPoppa, is it time for the west Region to be split up, i know there's something about the number of teams per region, but geographically it's huge! Lot of real good teams in the ASC, SCIAC, and NWC. Really does make you think about the games that got away. Coaches never forget those!

Do you understand how fickle a sport it is? How one good pitcher can shut 9 great hitters down? A lot of good teams go cold during a conference tournament....it happens. It doesn't mean that 2 bad games wipes out 40 games of terrific baseball, or that they do not deserve to get in.

Yes, thats right, a team that goes 35-7 and loses in their conference tournament DESERVES to be in, regardless if they lost their tournament. And there are enough spots; so i don't buy the "everyone can't get in". There is a point where teams with 20-18 records are not elite enough to deserve a shot at the title, but there are enough spots for deserving team. Its just that the picks are often given to teams with 8-10 more losses under the guise of a "tougher" schedule which is such a difficult thing to judge.

Yes, I do.  That is why I am trying to get fans to concentrate on the fact that the Division III tourney really begins for the 169 teams that are in the Double Elimination conference tourneys.

We get killed in the ASC because we are the biggest conference in the D-III.  We had the first round of the "sub-regional" down here last week (the first round of the conference tourney) with 3 West Region ranked teams playing.  We will be lucky to have one survive the Double Elimination format and land in Pool C.

We ASC-West fans thought that UT-Tyler played in the weak division in 2008, and the rest of their wins were not against strong teams either.  That is why they lost 2 games in the Conference tourney to the ASC West Quad-Champions Concordia-Texas.

This year, the ASC-East has 3 of the 4 teams in the ASC Tourney Finals.  Those teams won it on the fields.

As for the point of some 20-18 team not deserving to get into the playoffs in the NCAA, then you can take that up with someone else in the Indianapolis or the 2008 Fresno State Bulldogs!    :)

Offline DIIIBASEBALLFAN

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +7/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2009, 06:38:01 pm »
Here is the 2008 Fresno story for those who forgot:

OMAHA, Neb. (AP) -Fresno State college baseball's team of destiny, winning a championship that would seem to be impossible

Fresno State a Top 25 team coming into the season, but the Bulldogs lost 12 of their first 20 games. They had to win the Western Athletic Conference tournament  to make the NCAA field of 64. They fought off elimination in both the regionals and super regionals, and became the first No. 4 regional seed to reach the CWS since the tournament expanded in 1999.

The Fresno Bulldogs (47-31) from California not only showed they belonged, they showed they were the best, even though no previous national champion had more losses.

Offline d3baseballnut

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Karma: +35/-27
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2009, 08:39:58 pm »
Here is the 2008 Fresno story for those who forgot:

OMAHA, Neb. (AP) -Fresno State college baseball's team of destiny, winning a championship that would seem to be impossible

Fresno State a Top 25 team coming into the season, but the Bulldogs lost 12 of their first 20 games. They had to win the Western Athletic Conference tournament  to make the NCAA field of 64. They fought off elimination in both the regionals and super regionals, and became the first No. 4 regional seed to reach the CWS since the tournament expanded in 1999.

The Fresno Bulldogs (47-31) from California not only showed they belonged, they showed they were the best, even though no previous national champion had more losses.

You're right....it is a great story and I was rooting for them all the way.

But a team's good performance in the NCAA tournament doesn't justify their inclusion. We are looking for the most deserving teams, not necessarily the most talented ones. I believe D3 baseball should hold themselves to a higher standard then "Oh well, if we make a mistake in the selection process, we can always just blame it on them, so its not our fault".

I really believe the sports deserves better than that, and the committee should analyze its selection criteria again, because there are many teams deserving that are getting passed over for what I believe to be less deserving teams.....consistently....

Offline DIIIBASEBALLFAN

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +7/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2009, 09:06:43 pm »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....




Offline mideastfan2

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 690
  • Karma: +51/-10
  • 6 National Titles - 1981, 83, 86, 2006, 2011-12
    • View Profile
    • Marietta College Baseball
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2009, 10:28:24 pm »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....





go back to how it was pre-2000 when ALL the bids were at-large.  There were no automatic bids given, and the best teams from each region battled it out. 

The only fallback to this system was that teams WERE VERY RARELY shipped out of region, so if there were 5 awesome teams in one region, but the Regional that year was only a 4-team region...well, then someone got left out.

Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 27872
  • Karma: +1738/-376
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2009, 11:14:56 pm »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....

go back to how it was pre-2000 when ALL the bids were at-large.  There were no automatic bids given, and the best teams from each region battled it out. 

The only fallback to this system was that teams WERE VERY RARELY shipped out of region, so if there were 5 awesome teams in one region, but the Regional that year was only a 4-team region...well, then someone got left out.
+1!  Great historical perspective from the bad ol' day! 

Offline BaseballBug

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2009, 11:43:05 pm »
If the CC Tourney gets rained out, does JHU have a shot at a bid? If the tournament is not finished by mon then the highest remaining seed (currently Ursinus) gets the automatic bid.
They've had a roller coaster year, playing a ridiculous schedule. They also have phenomenal offensive numbers and have been playing well lately.

Offline BaseballFan

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 693
  • Karma: +21/-8
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2009, 11:51:01 pm »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....

go back to how it was pre-2000 when ALL the bids were at-large.  There were no automatic bids given, and the best teams from each region battled it out. 

The only fallback to this system was that teams WERE VERY RARELY shipped out of region, so if there were 5 awesome teams in one region, but the Regional that year was only a 4-team region...well, then someone got left out.
+1!  Great historical perspective from the bad ol' day! 

Agreed!

There are always going to be snubs no matter what!!! Even if you take the top 54 or top 154 there is always going to be those couple teams that believe they deserve to get in. There are two ways to get in 1) Win your regular season or conference tourney whatever your conference has. 2) Remove all doubt from the committee and just win throughout the season. Everyone plays on the same playing field and knows what it takes to get in the tourney, if you just win ballgames you will get in.

Offline d3baseballnut

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Karma: +35/-27
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2009, 09:09:01 am »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....





I am not lobbying for more bids, but just that selections be better so that more deserving teams get in. I just think the selection has been arbitrary. So no, I dont think d3baseball has to up its bids.

BaseballFan- I disagree. There will not always be teams who deserve to be in and get left out. A team with 15-20 losses doesnt deserve to get in. However, a team with over 30 wins and less than 10 losses normally deserves it. I actually think there is a clear break between teams who deserve to get in and those who don't. Tournament snubs happen when teams with much worse records get in for very arbitrary reasons. I often use the Montclar/ Texas-Tyler example in 2008, but there certainly are others.

We don't need to up the bids, but just need to ensure that teams with 33-35 wins get in the tournament. Otherwise, we severely weaken the importance of the entire regular season.

Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 27872
  • Karma: +1738/-376
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2009, 09:54:52 am »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....





I am not lobbying for more bids, but just that selections be better so that more deserving teams get in. I just think the selection has been arbitrary. So no, I dont think d3baseball has to up its bids.

BaseballFan- I disagree. There will not always be teams who deserve to be in and get left out. A team with 15-20 losses doesnt deserve to get in. However, a team with over 30 wins and less than 10 losses normally deserves it. I actually think there is a clear break between teams who deserve to get in and those who don't. Tournament snubs happen when teams with much worse records get in for very arbitrary reasons. I often use the Montclar/ Texas-Tyler example in 2008, but there certainly are others.

We don't need to up the bids, but just need to ensure that teams with 33-35 wins get in the tournament. Otherwise, we severely weaken the importance of the entire regular season.
Why ensure that a 36-win team makes the tourney when they cannot win the games that count, i.e., Concordia TX in the ASC double elimination round?

The way the committee looked at the West Region Pool C bids, they were stuck with Concordia and UTT being the next teams on the table from West Region.  UTT had the better record, but CTX has beaten UTT twice in the ASC tourney and took the season series 3-2.

Head-to-head, CTX was better than UTT.

Offline BaseballFan

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 693
  • Karma: +21/-8
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2009, 10:06:53 am »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....





I am not lobbying for more bids, but just that selections be better so that more deserving teams get in. I just think the selection has been arbitrary. So no, I dont think d3baseball has to up its bids.

BaseballFan- I disagree. There will not always be teams who deserve to be in and get left out. A team with 15-20 losses doesnt deserve to get in. However, a team with over 30 wins and less than 10 losses normally deserves it. I actually think there is a clear break between teams who deserve to get in and those who don't. Tournament snubs happen when teams with much worse records get in for very arbitrary reasons. I often use the Montclar/ Texas-Tyler example in 2008, but there certainly are others.

We don't need to up the bids, but just need to ensure that teams with 33-35 wins get in the tournament. Otherwise, we severely weaken the importance of the entire regular season.

You are telling me that the 54th best team to get in would be significantly better than 55th best team so that the 55th team wouldnt feel snubbed. You live in a dream world. There will always be a couple teams that feel snubbed.

I think of several reasons why you cant just go by number of wins.
1.) Not all teams play the same number of games. Ex. UTT 34-9, Carthage 23-5. Is UTT that much better NO! And southern schools usually have longer postseasons for more games.
2.) Doesnt take into account OWP
3.) Doesnt take into account any other criteria
4.) Doesnt take into account how team plays at end of year i.e. conference tourney
5.) i would schedule the weakest opponents possible.

There is a reason why the committee has such extensive criteria. Conferences gets auto-bids to ensure that the bids are distribute evenly and every team should have a chance to make the ncaa tourney, baseball is just like every other sport. If you are unfortunate enough to not get an auto-bid you just have to be one of the next 14 best teams. You wont get the 54 best teams because of upsets in the conference tourneys but you will get pretty close.

You should be thankful that 54 teams can in these days, since prior to 2005 i think only 40 teams got in.

Offline DIIIBASEBALLFAN

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +7/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2009, 11:11:15 am »
Would it be better to do:

Choice 1.
Eliminate all AQ and make 54 open bids in one pool. Split up into 8 regions

Choice 2
Keep Pool A AQ and have open bids for the remaining ones

Choice 3
Eliminate all Conference Tourneys(save money) and have 8 8 team regions
for 64 teams. Each seeded by ranking in region. Of course #9 and after will
still complain. No AQ.

Choice 4
Keep it the way it is. Win your games on the field that allow for you to play another day.

Despite all the chatter on this subject Choice 4 is likely to stay with no  changes in the near future regardless of how us fans feel about it.....I dont think coaches,players or NCAA will be listen to us.

IF Changes occur it will be  to save money due to the current and near future economic issues.

BUT this is fun to debate this subject.

Offline BigPoppa

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4540
  • Karma: +281/-81
    • View Profile
    • Carthage Baseball
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2009, 11:21:44 am »
Would it be better to do:

Choice 1.
Eliminate all AQ and make 54 open bids in one pool. Split up into 8 regions
I sort of like the fact that an underdog team can hot at the right time and grab bid.

Choice 2
Keep Pool A AQ and have open bids for the remaining ones
Dumping Pool B bids would cause an uproar as independents would not have a conference to compete in.

Choice 3
Eliminate all Conference Tourneys(save money) and have 8 8 team regions
for 64 teams. Each seeded by ranking in region. Of course #9 and after will
still complain. No AQ.
Would it simply be by in-region records? A team can schedule weak non-conference opponents to boost that number without facing any significant challenges.

Choice 4
Keep it the way it is. Win your games on the field that allow for you to play another day.

Despite all the chatter on this subject Choice 4 is likely to stay with no  changes in the near future regardless of how us fans feel about it.....I dont think coaches,players or NCAA will be listen to us.

IF Changes occur it will be  to save money due to the current and near future economic issues.

BUT this is fun to debate this subject.

I do not know the answer to the question, but I do like that you are thinking outside of the box. +K
Baseball is not a game that builds character, it is a game that reveals it.

Offline d3baseballnut

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Karma: +35/-27
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2009, 11:38:48 am »
What do you suggest as a better way than the present system.....given that the
NCAA will only pay for having 54 teams in the DIII Regionals.....





I am not lobbying for more bids, but just that selections be better so that more deserving teams get in. I just think the selection has been arbitrary. So no, I dont think d3baseball has to up its bids.

BaseballFan- I disagree. There will not always be teams who deserve to be in and get left out. A team with 15-20 losses doesnt deserve to get in. However, a team with over 30 wins and less than 10 losses normally deserves it. I actually think there is a clear break between teams who deserve to get in and those who don't. Tournament snubs happen when teams with much worse records get in for very arbitrary reasons. I often use the Montclar/ Texas-Tyler example in 2008, but there certainly are others.

We don't need to up the bids, but just need to ensure that teams with 33-35 wins get in the tournament. Otherwise, we severely weaken the importance of the entire regular season.
Why ensure that a 36-win team makes the tourney when they cannot win the games that count, i.e., Concordia TX in the ASC double elimination round?

The way the committee looked at the West Region Pool C bids, they were stuck with Concordia and UTT being the next teams on the table from West Region.  UTT had the better record, but CTX has beaten UTT twice in the ASC tourney and took the season series 3-2.

Head-to-head, CTX was better than UTT.

All I meant was that there is a clear break between deserving teams and undeserving teams...that break doesnt necessarily come between teams 54 and 55. I really think it comes at about 50-51. The last 3 or so are borderline. But there are enough spots to get everyone who SHOULD be in.......well, in.

If you are going to say "tough luck" to UTT "you didnt win your tournament", let's be consistent and say it to Montclair....they lost theirs to that year. And they both went 3-2 in the tournament. That excuse it just used to remove any responsibility from the committee to make the right selections. There is no way Montclair would have had a legit gripe if left out, UTT tyler did. That's my point. UTT tyler's reg season was that much better.

Ralph- the ASC has an 8 team tournament....do you know how hard it is to win a tournament that size....its like its own regional tournament just to get to the regionals. You will never see an ASC or SCAC team win it all as long as you require them to win 3 8 team tournaments in a row....its just too hard. Even Kean couldn't do it in 2007. Plus, its not like UTT tyler got destoryed in the tournament. They went 3-2. Hardly a disqualifying performance for a team that went 33-7 during the regular season.

OshDude

  • Guest
Re: Tournament Snubs
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2009, 01:37:37 pm »
Would it be better to do:

Choice 1.
Eliminate all AQ and make 54 open bids in one pool. Split up into 8 regions

Choice 2
Keep Pool A AQ and have open bids for the remaining ones

Choice 3
Eliminate all Conference Tourneys(save money) and have 8 8 team regions
for 64 teams. Each seeded by ranking in region. Of course #9 and after will
still complain. No AQ.

Choice 4
Keep it the way it is. Win your games on the field that allow for you to play another day.

Despite all the chatter on this subject Choice 4 is likely to stay with no  changes in the near future regardless of how us fans feel about it.....I dont think coaches,players or NCAA will be listen to us.

IF Changes occur it will be  to save money due to the current and near future economic issues.

BUT this is fun to debate this subject.
Put me down for Choice 4. The NCAA is made of conferences. What's the incentive for conferences if you take away playoff access for full-member leagues? Are you suggesting the NCAA not recognize conferences?

Which current major NCAA sport, in any division, has a tournament that invites only top-ranked teams, not conference winners and at-larges? You could say the NIT or the newer MBB tourneys, but even those best-of-the-rest selections are based partly on potential revenue. I'm thankful for what we have.