Author Topic: CCIW  (Read 85075 times)

Offline blue_jays

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #690 on: December 12, 2012, 04:38:40 pm »
augie - you must have had a friend or relative play on wheaton's 1997 team.  this thread isn't about 'what team was better' anyway - your conjecture is silly and off-topic.

what is being said is that wheaton has indeed taken a step back - nothing more and nothing less.  the only other thing that is being discussed is wheaton's current position in division iii soccer NOW compared to others.  the concensus is that north park and wheaton are comparable (probably something that every thunder fan would call blamphemous), that loras is a step ahead of wheaton in the midwest, and the given, that messiah is the best right now.

Off topic? It was actually relevant since you forgot to include Wheaton's best team ever when discussing their history. They had an unbeaten streak around 66-straight games or so. And no relatives of mine were on that team, or any Wheaton team for that matter.
Not really sure what point you're trying to make anyway. We all agree that Wheaton is not a perennial dominator like in the past. It's just the nature of a changing sport that looks way different than it did 20-30 years ago. North Park is firmly on equal footing with them now, and will continue to be so as long as they have Coach Born and a good Swedish connection.
Loras is a soccer factory with lots of good in-roads to the players that fit their style of play, including some great Latino players. They are best in the region and will stay that way.
Messiah will also continue to dominate for similar reasons. They have a niche (Christian athlete) that they utilize very well, plus they're competing against Wheaton for recruits. One big difference is Messiah does not have football, so they devote their resources into making their soccer teams the best in the nation.
So to conclude, Wheaton < Loras < Messiah. Something we already knew for a number of years now.

Offline OhioSocYea

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #691 on: December 13, 2012, 03:01:23 am »
Does Ohio Wesleyan count as a Midwest school, for purposes of D3 soccer? If so, they probably deserve to be mentioned in the tier right below Messiah.

If they don't count as a Midwest school, my apologies...

Offline blue_jays

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #692 on: December 13, 2012, 08:21:04 am »
Does Ohio Wesleyan count as a Midwest school, for purposes of D3 soccer? If so, they probably deserve to be mentioned in the tier right below Messiah.

I wouldn't count Ohio Wesleyan as a Midwest school, mostly due to the fact they are not an in-region opponent in any sport. Obviously, since Jay Martin broke Joe Bean's wins record, they are a top tier program that can't be denied.

Offline cciwrabblerouser

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #693 on: December 13, 2012, 11:24:11 am »
Does Ohio Wesleyan count as a Midwest school, for purposes of D3 soccer? If so, they probably deserve to be mentioned in the tier right below Messiah.

If they don't count as a Midwest school, my apologies...

guess it all depends  on your definition of 'midwest' is.  if you go by the ncaa's regional designations then technically owu isn't 'midwest.'  however, based on u.s. geography, i would conclude that the midwest and great lakes designations would make both regions midwest.  i am inclined to call ohio wesleyan a midwest school -- certainly people in ohio would say that they live in the midwest part of the u.s.

you're right - owu's soccer history is rich in tradition.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 12:01:02 pm by cciwrabblerouser »

Offline cciwrabblerouser

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #694 on: December 13, 2012, 11:34:31 am »
blue_jays wrote:  "Messiah will also continue to dominate for similar reasons. They have a niche (Christian athlete) that they utilize very well, plus they're competing against Wheaton for recruits. One big difference is Messiah does not have football, so they devote their resources into making their soccer teams the best in the nation."

agree with some of it, disagree with most of it...  here's why:

agree:  messiah doesn't have football.  BUT it also doesn't have 80-120 football players who are paying tuition and could be considered to be helping fund a football program - as is the case of wheaton and all other football-playing schools.

disagree:  if you want to throw football into the mix, then you need to throw field hockey and lacrosse (men's and women') into the mix as well.  messiah has all three, and wheaton has none of them.  wheaton has women's water polo and women's golf, which messiah does not.  so to throw football as a program into your argument that wheaton (and other football schools) doesn't have the resources for soccer that wheaton does, that doesn't fly.

disagree:  you are assuming that messiah's soccer budgets outweigh wheaton's. i would like to see the evidence of that.  i'm talking about institutional funding.  what i believe IS different is that messiah's summer camp structure is unique -- it is very entrepreneurial and generates a lot of additional income, a percentage (about a quarter of the profits, i'been told) of it going to help fund the soccer programs.  whoever set up that particular camp arrangement was a genius - probably the head coach before dave brandt, who also was the AD (who, you could conclude, knew how to feather his own pocket as well with the arrangement).
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 12:00:04 pm by cciwrabblerouser »

Offline Jim Matson

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #695 on: December 13, 2012, 06:51:53 pm »
Since Loras was brought into this, I would have to agree with those who have implied that the Duhawks are the new force in this area (they are technically in the North Region). That match with Messiah was Loras' to win had they converted on their opportunities. One of the best matches I have seen in the Final Four in a long time.

As a Wheaton grad, I love the North Park rivalry, but as a soccer guy, I also love the growing Loras rivalry.

If history is the topic, then it's Ohio Wesleyan, Wheaton, Trinity, Messiah...and a handful of others. But that history isn't much to rest on when the NCAA is picking Pool C berths!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 07:06:16 pm by Jim Matson »
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #696 on: December 13, 2012, 11:11:56 pm »
Quote
NPU doesn't want to be Wheaton in anything, aside from the size of the school's bank account. We have our own identity, our own mission, and our own way of doing things, thankyouverymuch. Wheaton is not the be-all and end-all of Christian colleges, you know, nor is it the template that every other Christian college administration seeks to imitate.

That's a fair statement.  My reference is to the soccer team specifically, and the athletics program in general.

I would question both of those propositions. The NPU men's soccer program doesn't appear to me to be following a Wheaton model at all. NPU does not play the same style of game as Wheaton (the contrasting styles are part of what makes watching an NPU vs. WC contest so interesting), and the recruiting strategies of the two archrivals are, of course, radically different as well.

John Born would be the first to say how much he admires and respects Joe Bean. But admiring and respecting someone is one thing; imitating him is another. John's very much followed his own path to success with NPU soccer, and if he does have a model upon which he's built the program (I'm not sure if he does or not), it doesn't appear to be Wheaton.

As far as athletics in general is concerned, I don't see NPU as a Wheaton wannabe in that category, either. I suppose you could argue in a generic sense that NPU does want to have the across-the-board success that Wheaton has enjoyed in athletics as a whole ... but, remember, Steve, it's your alma mater and not your son's that has traditionally been the overall best in CCIW sports. If the league handed out All-Sports Trophies, Augustana would have enough of them to practically span the Mississippi River. So you could argue that NPU is an Augustana wannabe ... as is Wheaton, and Elmhurst, and Carthage, and everybody else.

(Including Augustana at the moment. ;))

I don't have a strong beef with the other contentions other than that Wheaton appears to be set up for continued improvement--more so than North Park in the immediate future.  Arguably North Park could claim the upper hand over the past three years (certainly they did better in 2010 and 2011), but in my view they need to sustain that level for a few more years to be called Wheaton's equal in soccer.  I'll be quite surprised if Wheaton's young team doesn't have the upper hand for the next three years based on current personnel.

I think that that's premature. Wheaton probably does have the most strength in terms of returnees, but one thing about NPU is that many of the players John Born has recruited have showed up at Foster & Kedzie ready to play at a high level as far as the CCIW is concerned, the Swedish players in particular. I would not hand the 2013 trophy to Wheaton just yet.

As for who is equal to whom, that's basically a matter of opinion. How far back do you go? The whole process of determining who's the best in recent history is prone to selection bias. For example, NPU's the only CCIW program that's made the D3 tourney in each of the past three seasons, and the only CCIW program that's played in the league tourney championship game in each of the past three seasons as well. But my citing those numbers is an example of my selection bias.

Over the past decade NPU has gone 7-6-3 against Wheaton. I'm pretty comfortable with saying that North Park is on equal footing with Wheaton now.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 11:14:52 pm by Gregory Sager »
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #697 on: December 20, 2012, 07:30:33 pm »
Congrats to NPU for winning the NSCAA Team Academic Award for the seventh time in nine years. NPU is one of only 187 colleges and universities in the country, and the only school in the CCIW, to have both the men's soccer team and the women's soccer team win the award this time around. (The Illinois Wesleyan and North Central men, and the Carthage and Millikin women, won the award as well.)
“If you have a chance to help others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.” — Roberto Clemente

Offline augie77

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #698 on: January 08, 2013, 10:59:00 am »
I know one Wheaton player is at least entertaining the idea of future graduate school at North Park (international business).   :-\

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #699 on: January 08, 2013, 06:26:01 pm »
What a shame. His family's probably going to have to go into hiding in order to avoid public disgrace. ;) ;D
“If you have a chance to help others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.” — Roberto Clemente

Offline augie77

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #700 on: January 09, 2013, 02:46:52 pm »
Mr. Sager, right you are.  You speak with considerable insight and wisdom  ;D

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #701 on: June 26, 2013, 08:34:51 pm »
Congrats to newly-minted NPU grad Tim Ahlberg upon being named CCIW Man of the Year. It's a well-deserved honor. If you read his bio on the link to the CCIW new release, you'll see what an impressive young man he really is.
“If you have a chance to help others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.” — Roberto Clemente

Offline blue_jays

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #702 on: June 29, 2013, 10:01:34 am »
Good for Tim. He was always a top-notch goalie and he sounds just as impressive off the pitch.

Offline Gotberg

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #703 on: August 09, 2013, 07:48:54 pm »
any word on new players coming in for North Park?  Also, any key, eligible players from last year's team not returning?
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: CCIW
« Reply #704 on: August 09, 2013, 09:47:09 pm »
I haven't seen John Born all summer, so I have nothing to report on NPU yet.
“If you have a chance to help others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.” — Roberto Clemente