Author Topic: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes  (Read 9802 times)

Offline KnightSlappy

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 12:57:02 pm »
I don't really think this rule is going to affect anything in gameplay.  The charge is a relatively rare play as it is.

The charge is called far too infrequently for my liking (in the MIAA men's game at least). If your finger twitches while you're standing there, they're calling it a block. Such a shame actually.
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Offline John Gleich

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 04:42:38 pm »
I don't really think this rule is going to affect anything in gameplay.  The charge is a relatively rare play as it is.

The charge is called far too infrequently for my liking (in the MIAA men's game at least). If your finger twitches while you're standing there, they're calling it a block. Such a shame actually.


Btw, I had the same reaction that you did on your blog post on the issue... especially the "may turn or duck to absorb shock" point.

Honestly, this is one of the rules that varies in different places in the country/in different conferences depending on how physical they allow you to play.  The WIAC is, in general, a pretty physical league and has lots of contact in general... so there are quite a few no-calls with contact.  There are occasionally charge calls on overtly obvious out-of-control actions where the defender is collided with and falls (such as a big man backing the defender down and knocks him over), but there needs to be an attempt at getting a charge to get one called otherwise (i.e. the defender has to be in the "charge" position to get it called...) but you're right, if they're not set, they won't get the call.

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Offline Brookland

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 07:04:46 pm »
3 ft arc.....NOT - let them play - I don't see this as but something to get upset at the refs about.....even in the NBA

The three foot arc has nothing to do with "letting them play" or not. It shouldn't change the number of calls, it simply forces the referee to call a "block" when the player is too far under the basket.

Women's 3 Point Line - ALL for this....People who watch the Women's game know they can shoot the 3 ball just like the men.
Makes the court alot cleaner for the refs....not so many lines on the floor.

I've definitely seen them shoot the ball like the men, but I haven't yet seen them make the shots like the men.  ;)

This discussion got me wondering, so I went to the final NCAA stats for the past season for top ten leaders in 3 pt shooting percentage. Below is what I found. Not definitive of course, but it seems to support an argument that, at least for the best of the best, the differences between the men and the women exist but aren't that great...interesting!

(Sorry for the hard-to-read formatting - can't get the system to cooperate!)

Rank   Name   G   3FG   3FGA   3FG%      Name   G   3FG   3FGA   3FG%
Div I Women's Leaders                     Div I Men's Leaders            
1   Cerie Mosgrove   30   78   157   49.7      Jon Diebler   37   114   227   50.2
2   Emily London   33   84   174   48.3      Robert Nyakundi   35   97   195   49.7
3   Kamile Nacickaite   32   75   157   47.8      Ashton Gibbs   31   102   208   49
4   Addie Micir   29   77   167   46.1      Scott Bamforth   31   78   160   48.8
5   Angie Bjorklund   31   73   162   45.1      Gabe Rogers   32   81   173   46.8
6   Brittany Johnson   34   85   189   45      Nemanja Mitrovic   32   93   201   46.3
7   Britteni Rice   31   71   158   44.9      Bryson Johnson   34   99   217   45.6
8   Iwalani Rodrigues   35   110   245   44.9      Jeff Ledbetter   32   99   218   45.4
9   Eryn Jones   32   73   168   43.5      Travis Bader   35   94   212   44.3
10   Ali Heller   29   58   134   43.3      Brandon Provost   31   79   179   44.1
                                 
Div II Women's Leaders                     Div II Men's Leaders            
1   Stephanie Wagner   30   114   218   52.3      Brantley Osborne   29   73   155   47.1
2   Maurika Hickman   26   56   120   46.7      Bruce Kennedy   28   78   168   46.4
3   Kati Rausberg   28   75   161   46.6      Shane Hanson   25   68   148   45.9
4   Gianna Messina   29   78   170   45.9      John Brooks   27   84   183   45.9
5   Daryle Goldie   30   66   144   45.8      Alex Culy   28   76   169   45
6   Celeste Caudill   27   59   129   45.7      Stefan Bonneau   30   79   176   44.9
7   Katie Wolff   30   67   147   45.6      Brad Starken   27   74   166   44.6
8   Tricia Principe   26   56   123   45.5      Jordan Fortney   34   119   267   44.6
9   Brittany Huggins   32   69   155   44.5      Nate Barnes   31   106   238   44.5
10   Andrea Sisson   27   55   125   44      Jake Dastrup   31   97   218   44.5
                                 
Div III Women's Leaders                     Div III Men's Leaders            
1   Chelsie Schweers   34   133   270   49.3      Tom Gisler   28   73   146   50
2   Alex Wilson   25   63   134   47      Skylar Tolson   27   69   138   50
3   Allie Long   27   66   144   45.8      Tony Mane   26   82   169   48.5
4   Cydni Matsuoka   28   78   171   45.6      Corey Connor   29   89   185   48.1
5   Laura Karsten   22   46   102   45.1      Matt Fiorino   23   63   131   48.1
6   Pui Sham   25   59   131   45      Anthony Trautman   29   83   174   47.7
7   Olivia Lett   33   67   150   44.7      Josh Haymore   25   81   170   47.6
8   Emily Pelletier   23   71   160   44.4      Eryk Watson   26   94   199   47.2
9   Melissa Eltzroth   22   55   124   44.4      Pj Taylor   26   88   191   46.1
10   Shelly Kilcup   24   49   111   44.1      Alex Gulotta   25   71   155   45.8

Offline KnightSlappy

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 09:55:07 am »
Here's what I get for the MIAA as a whole last year:

Men (8 teams): 1277-3654 , .349
Women (9 teams): 1025-3543, .289

I think, as a general rule, the women shoot too many three pointers... actually now that I'm looking at some numbers, the women probably shoot about right and perhaps the men don't shoot enough threes.

(same data pool)

men 2-pt eFG% -- .476
men overall eFG% -- .490
men 3-pt eFG% -- .524

women 2-pt eFG% -- .413
women overall eFG% -- .419
women 3-pt eFG% -- .434

We would need to take drawing fouls into account (that would happen often on two-pointers but rarely on threes), and probably also a bit of game theory, but the pure FG shooting numbers suggest that the women's mix of twos and threes might be close to ideal.

The women are only left .019 points of effective field goal percentage on the floor when they attempt a two-pointer, but the gap for the men was .048. Interesting.
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Offline 7express

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2011, 01:56:29 pm »
I agree with the women's line.  There's too many lines on the floor as it was, especially with schools that have volleyball teams as well.  From what I could tell last year at women's game, most of the girls were shooting from the men's line anyways, and the percentage wasn't all that different.

Fully support 10 second backcourt rule in women's basketball.  To be honest, I don't know why they haven't had that before.

Men's 3 foot arch under the basket is awful.  Do we really need to be the NBA??  How many players get drafted by the NBA anyway??  40 in a year (taking into account the 10 or so foreigners), so thats an average of 13.3 players drafted over the 3 NCAA divisions, less then 1 full team.  Terrible idea.

Replay will work, but how much will it impact D-3 basketball??
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Offline d3hendrixpop50

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 10:04:52 pm »
Will the 10 Second backcourt rule for Women's Basketball be played that way in preseason this year in DIII?  and What is the criteria from the NCAA for officially changing it based on the statistics this year?

Offline d3hendrixpop50

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2011, 01:45:38 am »
I do know that most if not all of the SCAC basketball games are Televised on CollegeTVTicket.com so whether or not replay is provided I'm not sure......seems like it could be.


Offline 7express

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 06:27:04 pm »
Yah, the LEC games are televised on LEC tv as well............................the only problem is that its on-line only, and the person with the camera is like 30+ feet high off the court, so replay's won't be of much help/use in the LEC.  Not sure if collegeticket for the SCAC is like that or not.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2011, 11:59:06 pm »
Something I think is being forgotten about in the argument about the arc under the basket is the simple fact that sometimes defenders are credited for taking a charging foul when in reality they aren't in position to actually stop a player going to the basket.

If the offensive player is driving the lane, you know he is leaving the floor well before three-feet prior to the basket and by the time he get's that close to the rim he is established in the air and probably has let go of the ball. If he has gotten that close to the basket without any contact with the defensive player and then only hits him after he has completed his drive, released the ball, etc.... that shouldn't be an offensive charge if the defensive player is parked UNDER the basket.

The defensive player didn't get himself in position to stop the offensive player's drive to the basket; the player didn't get between the offensive player and the basket; the defensive player is actually out of position under the basket. The player actually only positioned himself somewhere near the basket in hopes the ref will blow the whistle. If a defender can't actually get into a position besides directly below the rim to stop a player from driving to the basket, that player should not be rewarded with drawing the charge... it isn't good defense... it's a lucky call.

As for the ten-second call in the backcourt for women's basketball... that is based on the shot clock. They haven't moved that clock up to 35 like they did in the men's game... so if the women took longer than 10 second to get across the mid-line, they were thus left with less than 20 seconds to set up the offense and score... that was punishment for taking their time. However, I am for the 10 second call in the women's game... but I also think they then have to readjust the shot-clock accordingly.

As for the 3-point arc... love the move back... but arguing because there are too many lines on the court isn't going to help. That original line either can't get taken off of some courts, anyway... or schools host high school games and it has to stay anyway... so the lines aren't going anywhere.
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Offline 7express

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 08:34:34 pm »
Are any of these new rules in effect??

I've been close to 15 NCAA games (about 7 women 8 men) and haven't noticed the rules.  The next women's game I'm at (probably Wednesday afternoon) I'll have to pay attention to the 3 point shooters and where their taking the ****s from.

I do know 1 thing, I have not seen a ref use the 10 second count on a women's player in the backcourt so far.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 05:17:51 pm »
The new three-point arc and the arc in the paint are in effect... the 10-second count for women in the backcourt was just an experiment during exhibition/preseason games.
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Offline John Gleich

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 10:45:55 am »
I'm wondering if anyone has seen any effects from the new rule changes...

I watched UWSP @ York when there were 8 offensive fouls called on the Pointers in the game.  A few were called on illegal screens... but no fewer than 5 were called charges. 

Now, to be true, Point was attacking the basket... but the charge call became the default... it wasn't until the second half that a blocking call was made, I believe.


This may not have anything to do with the arc in the paint... but it was curious, none the less.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 11:38:00 am »

I've seen a ton of charges called in the few games I've watched this year.  I'm also seeing the same thing in the d1 games, though.  I wonder if offensive fouls are a point of emphasis for NCAA officials this year?
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 02:05:08 pm »
I think there are... I also heard an interesting point from a coach and ref last night... wondering if players think that because of the arc... if they simply put their head down and try to get to the paint first, they will get the call. The reality is that because they put their head down and drove hard, they get called for a charge because they barreled into a defensive player before they even got to the arc.

Not sure if offensive players are thinking they have the chance of getting the call to go their way or refs are watching the charges more this year (and it is about time they did, there are too many charges in the game not called in the past)... but I do appreciate the fact more calls are being made.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Proposed 2011-12 rule changes
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 08:07:22 pm »

I watched two and a half games at the Eastern tournament.  There had to have been seven charges called, only one of them was a bad call, and it was pretty close at that.  In years past it's been the exact opposite.  I'd rather have the charges called than not.
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