Author Topic: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin  (Read 801816 times)

Online Mr. Ypsi

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6810 on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:59 pm »
The best 2 pt. specialist, rebounder and back-to-the-basket player I ever saw at IWU was Christina Solari.  Truly amazing skills of using her body, strength and guile to score around the basket.

'70

When Christina was a senior, Hope's Carrie Snikkers was a junior and national POY.  Calvin's Carissa Verkaik was national rookie of the year (and national POY 2 years later).  Both were also centers.  I was always very disappointed that she never got to go head-to-head against either of them, especially Carrie - THAT would have been a battle!  (Just because it would be senior vs. freshman, even giving up 3-4 inches I suspect she could have dominated Carissa - THAT year!)

Alas, until you perfect that time machine, we'll never know. ;)

Offline RogK

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6811 on: October 10, 2018, 09:09:31 pm »
Yeah, iwu70, Christina was a very agile and talented player, always a fine example of athleticism. Without starting a whole "don't forget so-and-so" discussion, I remember another agile talented tall player from that general time frame, Elmhurst's Aja Terrier. She was pretty darn good. And of course Millikin's Lindsay Ippel was probably the CCIW's best lowpost scorer and also rebounded well.

Offline iwu70

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6812 on: October 11, 2018, 12:36:15 pm »
Ippel was very very good.  Remember her well.

I'm ready for the season to begin.  I'll get to see a few games @The Shirk before flying back to Asia.  I'll follow along, thanks to all of you on Chat, and the good streaming video now, from the other side of the world.

'70


Offline RogK

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6813 on: October 12, 2018, 11:54:44 pm »
Wheaton returns a dozen players from last season, joined by five freshmen :
https://athletics.wheaton.edu/roster.aspx?path=wbball

Offline iwu70

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6814 on: October 13, 2018, 01:42:37 pm »
Some real good talent there for WC, and some size for a DIII roster.  Should be a very good year for WC too.

IWU'70

Offline AndOne

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6815 on: October 13, 2018, 02:17:23 pm »

Are there 2 pt specialists? Are there 0 point specialists?

So... post players and defensive specialists? :P

A “2 point specialist” might possibly be defined as;

1. A tough low post/inside scorer who once she/he receives the ball down low, combines strength, a quick first step, and an understanding of the concept of leverage to be virtually unstoppable within a few feet of the basket.

2. A player who is a master of a dying art in almost every level of basketball, that of being a superior mid-range jump shooter. With the huge increase over recent years in the emphasis on marksmanship from beyond the arc, the player who can consistently make 8-13 feet or so shots is an invaluable resource.
You don't always have to win every game. You just have to win the right ones. 😏 (AndOne)

There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys-----there's only you and me, and we just disagree. ✌️
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You gotta lose to know how to win. 🏆 (Aerosmith)

So who's the hunter 🐅, ........and who's the game 🐃? (Scandal)

Offline RogK

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6816 on: October 13, 2018, 09:30:44 pm »
AndOne, your last point fits the situation when a defense finds it necessary to tightly guard the three-line and also still prevent layups. The holes in such defenses would be the long-2FG area.
As you say, a superior mid-range shooter is helpful. By "superior", do we mean something like 45% or better in the women's game? A tad higher for guys?

Offline AndOne

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6817 on: October 14, 2018, 01:53:02 pm »
AndOne, your last point fits the situation when a defense finds it necessary to tightly guard the three-line and also still prevent layups. The holes in such defenses would be the long-2FG area.
As you say, a superior mid-range shooter is helpful. By "superior", do we mean something like 45% or better in the women's game? A tad higher for guys?

If you’re shooting other than layups or 2-3 foot shots, yes, I think the percentages you mention above would be considered “superior.” However, I doubt a guys coach would be unhappy with a 45% shooter.
I am not well versed on women’s shooing percentages, but I would think anything consistently over 40% would be very solid production.
You don't always have to win every game. You just have to win the right ones. 😏 (AndOne)

There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys-----there's only you and me, and we just disagree. ✌️
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You gotta lose to know how to win. 🏆 (Aerosmith)

So who's the hunter 🐅, ........and who's the game 🐃? (Scandal)

Offline iwu70

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6818 on: Yesterday at 05:38:31 pm »
Dear AO and RogK, speaking of "2 pt specialists," the Titans seem to have some:

Merritt 3 years -- .453 % career.  FTs .841 %
Schneider 3 years -- .489 % career
Brovelli 1 year -- much upside upcoming -- .500%
Raven Hughes -- even more upside coming -- .670 %

I see many of the Titan players around campus and the conditioning work is very evident.

Titans could be strong in the paint with the right positioning and entry passing.

Practices begun now.  Titans have an exhibition at SIU Edwardsville (where coach Smith played with distinction), then open the season at home against University of Chicago, November 11th.

IWU'70

Offline RogK

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6819 on: Yesterday at 09:38:11 pm »
Brovelli, who did not attempt a three, did shoot .500 on 2FGs.
Hughes was 76/114 at 2FGs for .667. She was excellent at three(s) -- 1/1 for 1.000. She could have a dropoff (not Yuri Andropov) in her pcts and still be very good.
Schneider over her career is at .528 for 2FGs (158/299) and .125 on 3FGs (4/32).
Merritt's career 2FG is .470 (285/607), along with .250 on threes (12/48).
Whenever 3FGs are involved, the overall TRADITIONAL FG% doesn't tell the real story.
I particularly like the basketball-reference website for NBA/ABA stats because it separates 2FGs and 3FGs, so you don't have to subtract 3FG data from overall FG data. Yet, at halftime of NBA broadcasts, announcers still insist on telling us "Sacramento hit .480 of their field goal attempts and 33% of their threes." Those numbers don't explain much, unless you know the actual quantity of 2FG attempts and 3FG attempts.
My opinion is this : 2FGs and 3FGs are substantially different entities and stats should list them separately. Dump the traditional combined FG%; it tells us much less than do separate 2FG and 3FG numbers.
The only accurate measure of combined 2FG and 3FG shooting is "effective FG%" (made 2FGs + 1.5 made 3FGs / total FG att).
Made or missed free throws are not accounted for in any of these stats.

Offline AndOne

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6820 on: Today at 02:07:31 am »
Again, remember, my original post dealt specifically with mid-range shooting. While all baskets inside the arc count for 2 points, I was distinguishing between layups and other shots within a few feet of the basket—those shots you would expect to be converted at a high percentage and usually are, and shots from about 8-13 feet which typically result in being converted at a lower percentage than the close in shots, but more often than long range bombs.
The problem is seemingly everyone except true low post players has fallen in love with the 3 pointer, and that shot has become increasingly popular in today’s game—at the expense of the mid range two point shot—despite the low 3 point percentage we often see in box scores. Thats why a player who excels in the dying art of the mid-range jumper can be a very effective weapon.  ;)
You don't always have to win every game. You just have to win the right ones. 😏 (AndOne)

There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys-----there's only you and me, and we just disagree. ✌️
(Dave Mason)

You gotta lose to know how to win. 🏆 (Aerosmith)

So who's the hunter 🐅, ........and who's the game 🐃? (Scandal)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6821 on: Today at 11:34:57 am »
The midrange jumper is an effective weapon, as long as people are clear on what a midrange jumper truly is (i.e., the 8'-13' distance Mark mentioned). I've heard people call a sixteen-footer a "midrange jumper" plenty of times, and some deluded thinkers will call anything just inside the arc a "midrange jumper", as if "midrange" means "anything between a layup and a trey".

It's an effective weapon in the right hands, but it's especially effective as a pull-up shot. The reason why is because players nowadays are so used to drivers either going all the way to the rim or dumping off to the open teammate underneath the basket once they drive in close and help defense comes over that they don't tend to give a thought to the possibility that the driver might suddenly stop, rise, and shoot. As a result, the pull-up tends to earn the shooter a lot more space nowadays than it used to back in the day, making it ideal for smaller players who are quick enough and adept enough at ballhandling to drive but lack the size and strength to finish effectively at the basket in traffic.

The master of the pull-up jumper in recent years in the CCIW was Juwan Henry of North Park over on the men's side. At 5'10, 165 he scored over 2,000 points in his career, and a lot of that 2K came on pull-ups.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..” -- John Wooden

Offline RogK

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6822 on: Today at 12:08:06 pm »
Well-stated, Greg. And I think we all agree with AndOne's regret that a lot of players aren't good enough shooters in that 8-13 ft range.
Just to visualize a broader 2FG vs 3FG comparison, here's a quick list of 2FG pcts and the 3FG pcts that would score the same amount of points.
    2FG%  =  3FG%
     39            26
     42            28
     45            30
     48            32
     51            34
     54            36
     57            38
     60            40
Of course, other things to consider : going for a mid-range or close-range 2FG can yield more FT attempts, but also results in more turnovers; maybe missed 3FGs produce more chance for offensive rebounds? That may vary from team to team.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6823 on: Today at 12:48:01 pm »
It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Teams that shoot a lot of trey attempts can garner a lot more offensive rebounds off of their own missed treys, because they're not disadvantaged out on the floor by boxouts, but at the same time it leaves them more vulnerable to opposition runouts and easy fast-break layups if they accent working hard at grabbing long caroms out on the floor at the expense of perimeter containment.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful..” -- John Wooden

Offline iwu70

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Re: WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #6824 on: Today at 02:05:31 pm »
I think IWU's Rose and Bonnett are pretty good pull-up, mid-ranger offensive players.  Rose likes the trey, but he slashes and drives and has all kinds of moves, shots with both hands, when he's headed inside the arc.  Bonnett is strong to the rim, but also pretty good at the 8-13 ft. range shot.

Agree about Juwan.  He was briliant, amazing, esp. for this size in the area of the paint dwelling giants.

Season within a few weeks now.

'70