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Are the purple powers bad for D3?

Yes
36 (35.6%)
No
65 (64.4%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Author Topic: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?  (Read 29114 times)

Offline Knightstalker

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #405 on: January 11, 2012, 08:05:28 am »
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.  Does Green Bay and Milwaukee having D-1 schools hurt Oshkosh?  It seems to me there's a fairly significant amount of scholarship quality football players in the state of wisconsin that are forced to go elsewhere if they can't get an offer from the badgers.

What makes you so certain that it is in Whitewater's best interest to do so?

Even if we assume that there are enough scholarship-quality players for UW-Whitewater to compete at the Division I level, there's a lot more at stake here than just the competitive success of the football team.

As badgerwarhawk just said, UWW is a public university.  You make it sound so simple - just convince the legislators to let one of the state-run universities to go off and do its own thing.  To make it sound that simple suggests that you really don't grasp exactly how public universities work, but let's play along for a moment.

Even if it were that simple, and UWW had official approval to do what it wanted, there would be the complicated matter of funding a Division I sports program.  Remember, the vast majority of Division I athletics programs LOSE money (in some cases, quite a bit of it).  Most of them lose millions a year on the football program.  Where are these millions going to come from to support a full-scholarship program at Whitewater?  Do you really think that thousands of alums are going to come streaming out of the woodwork and donate thousands of their hard-earned dollars?  Some might, to be sure, but how many realistically can afford a significant donation?  How many millionaire alums of UWW are there?  How many of those millionaries will decide to pony up a big donation to support a guaranteed money-loser just for the sake of school pride?
I'm not certain that they would want to move to D-1.  I'm just advocating that they should be able to.  As long as we're convincing legislators to make some changes, maybe we could convince the feds to get rid of title IX and the NCAA to allow Whitewater to move only it's football team to D-1 (obviously scholarship football players wouldn't also be able to play in the d3 sports).

OK, let's see if we can sort out all of the sweeping changes that you're proposing that various legislative bodies make. You're not only advocating that the Wisconsin state legislature change state law regarding the athletics status of its various UW branch campuses, you're also advocating that, in a completely separate maneuver, the NCAA rescind its unitary-athletics rule regarding divisional membership. And, finally, you're advocating that the U.S. Congress dispense with Title IX so that UW-Whitewater doesn't have to jettison its wrestling, men's tennis, and men's swimming teams in order to plow cash into what would then be a D1 football program. All of this just to feed your notion of how things should operate at a school that you don't attend, didn't attend, and don't root for. Anything else you want? A pony, perhaps? ::)
Yes.

If administrators would not be tempted to move football to d-1 if the hurdles were removed, why do we have the hurdles?   If my reforms were put into place, would the other WIAC football squads be terribly hurt, women's sports be cut and whitewater's other d3 teams be given an insurmountable advantage?  Is it possible that the other WIAC schools might even get stronger with more d3 recruits left to pick from?  Why would Whitewater cut the women's teams if they don't cost more than they do currently and you'd have additional football generated money to spend on better facilities?  The other d3 teams remaining in the department would surely benefit from the football money, but many d3's already gain a big advantage through their wildly differing endowments or donation levels.  Here in Minnesota, St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team generates a million a year in profit that the rest of the department can spend on their d2 athletics, but they were still recently considering cutting the football program and none of their other sports seems to be very dominant compared to the other d2 schools that don't have that money to spend.

I think he really wants a pony.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

Offline ExTartanPlayer

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #406 on: January 11, 2012, 08:32:08 am »
Why would Whitewater cut the women's teams if they don't cost more than they do currently and you'd have additional football generated money to spend on better facilities?...Here in Minnesota, St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team generates a million a year in profit that the rest of the department can spend on their d2 athletics...

Ahhhh.  What we have here is a basic misunderstanding of the difference between "profit" and "revenue."  I've figured this out because you reference that St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team brings in a million dollars a year in profit.

http://www.sctimes.com/assets/pdf/DR163235828.PDF

According to this document, which contains the St. Cloud State athletic budget for 2008-09, the St. Cloud State men's hockey team generated about $1.3 million dollars in revenue.  However, they required an operating budget of just over $1.2 million dollars to do so, for a net profit of $103,000.  That is very, very different from generating "a million dollars in profit" on the hockey program.

You're making a rather faulty assumption that UWW moving to a higher classification in football would start generating scads of profit.  This is not true at all.  It would start generating more REVENUE but would require a significantly higher operating budget to do so; most likely, they would be lucky to break even on an FCS or FBS football program.

Since you mention that you're from Minnesota, let's take a look at the University of Minnesota itself.  According to this article from January 2010 (http://www.mndaily.com/2010/01/24/athletics-finances-balancing-act), the Gophers' athletic department has run at a loss for the last several years.  That same article references an NCAA-commissioned study that showed an average LOSS of $9.9 million per year for FBS football programs.  Let me repeat that: the average athletic department with an FBS football program LOST nearly $10 million per year.  That number is actually BOOSTED by schools like the University of Minnesota, who run their football program at a profit despite generating little revenue themselves (almost solely owing to the Big Ten's massive TV contract - if you remove the windfall from the TV contract, UM football lost a few million in the year that article was written).  If you're not in the Big Ten or the SEC, you don't get that life preserver of a huge TV contract, and there is almost no way possible to run your program at a profit.  Basically, unless Whitewater were able to finagle an invitation to the Big Ten, they would be almost guaranteed to lose money on a Division I football program.

You still think that there's a magical windfall of football money that's going to generate scads of profit?

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #407 on: January 11, 2012, 08:51:40 am »
Why would Whitewater cut the women's teams if they don't cost more than they do currently and you'd have additional football generated money to spend on better facilities?...Here in Minnesota, St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team generates a million a year in profit that the rest of the department can spend on their d2 athletics...

Ahhhh.  What we have here is a basic misunderstanding of the difference between "profit" and "revenue."  I've figured this out because you reference that St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team brings in a million dollars a year in profit.

http://www.sctimes.com/assets/pdf/DR163235828.PDF

According to this document, which contains the St. Cloud State athletic budget for 2008-09, the St. Cloud State men's hockey team generated about $1.3 million dollars in revenue.  However, they required an operating budget of just over $1.2 million dollars to do so, for a net profit of $103,000.  That is very, very different from generating "a million dollars in profit" on the hockey program.

You're making a rather faulty assumption that UWW moving to a higher classification in football would start generating scads of profit.  This is not true at all.  It would start generating more REVENUE but would require a significantly higher operating budget to do so; most likely, they would be lucky to break even on an FCS or FBS football program.

Since you mention that you're from Minnesota, let's take a look at the University of Minnesota itself.  According to this article from January 2010 (http://www.mndaily.com/2010/01/24/athletics-finances-balancing-act), the Gophers' athletic department has run at a loss for the last several years.  That same article references an NCAA-commissioned study that showed an average LOSS of $9.9 million per year for FBS football programs.  Let me repeat that: the average athletic department with an FBS football program LOST nearly $10 million per year.  That number is actually BOOSTED by schools like the University of Minnesota, who run their football program at a profit despite generating little revenue themselves (almost solely owing to the Big Ten's massive TV contract - if you remove the windfall from the TV contract, UM football lost a few million in the year that article was written).  If you're not in the Big Ten or the SEC, you don't get that life preserver of a huge TV contract, and there is almost no way possible to run your program at a profit.  Basically, unless Whitewater were able to finagle an invitation to the Big Ten, they would be almost guaranteed to lose money on a Division I football program.

You still think that there's a magical windfall of football money that's going to generate scads of profit?


Majority of the so called "top tier" FBS programs are running at a deficit, because of the many contracts these schools get into. They believe that the whole world is going to tune into their games or come from the many parts of the world to sit a stadium to watch a team that has no chance of winning the national champioship. Other than the occasional rivalry games, many schools (not all) lose out at the end of the day, with the big expectations that their school is the next in line. The way the FBS is run, you will never see a school come into the spotlight unless they have someone backing them with cash & sponsorship (i.e. Nike & Oregon). Nevertheless, back to UWW, I believe that it takes money to get money and that it takes a whole lot of money to get a whole lot of money, just to make a measingly 1-5 percent profit.

Offline 02 Warhawk

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #408 on: January 11, 2012, 09:42:50 am »
This thread went from an intellengent well-thought-out debate to just flat out ridiculousness
@popsofone

Offline smedindy

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #409 on: January 11, 2012, 09:46:24 am »
Agreed. I'm taking Twilight Sparkle and Fluttershy and going home...
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Offline ExTartanPlayer

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #410 on: January 11, 2012, 10:19:26 am »
This thread went from an intellengent well-thought-out debate to just flat out ridiculousness

I think that AO may, in fact, be a unicorn, rather than a person.  I'm looking forward to his explanation of how he confused a million dollars in profit for the St. Cloud State hockey program with a million dollars in revenue.

Offline DGPugh

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #411 on: January 11, 2012, 10:33:20 am »
smedindy said
"I spoke to the fans and parents of the football program when I saw them this year over in Ft. Myers. They were quite happy with their D-3 experience. And by adding opportunities, they did it for the right reasons."

i fundamentally agree with all you have said, and hate to nit pick (please forgive my ignorance) but the football folk would be happy...that is the plus they got by going D-3 . They created a football program along with ~ 5 other sports.
They gave up D-1 baseball and Basketball.That was a major problem for the BSC alumni, and initially lost some ernrollment. But the long term ( ~ 5yrs now ?) has been a plus.
The president and board (at the time) took some serious alumni flak but showed a decrease in cost of athletics by going D-3 even with adding sports (which included football). Acording to the Birmingham News they needed to decrease costs at the time.
I do not know what the BSC folk say now, but at the time the switch was made, it was due to financial constraints on maintaining D-1 for Bball, Ball, soft ball, and Lady Bball....for real.

The biggest screams were from baseball supporters, as thier Base ball team had been the NAIA Nat champs  (~2001) just a few yrs before they went D-1 NCAA Big South Conf. Many voiced concerns in the papers and on the B'Ham sports forums that the drop from scholarship to D-3 would be looked at as a step backwards. The BSC folk always seem to compare themselves to Samford (also in B'Ham), and many times view how they behave in light of how Samford will see them (at least that has been my observation for the past 22 yrs of teaching anf working with graduates of both institutions.
But as you said it has worked out very well....and they even added 5 - or 6 sports to thier program.
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Offline AO

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #412 on: January 11, 2012, 10:47:56 am »
Whether St. Cloud State is generating 100k or 1M from hockey, it still doesn't win them volleyball games. 

If Football was such a money loser, there should be even less of a reason to prevent teams from moving up just their football team.

It's important to distinguish athletic department's deficits from the profit or lack thereof of the football team.  While the Minnesota athletic department operated at a net loss, the football team generated $15 Million in profit, not including the money from the big ten network which is obviously mostly derived from people watching football and basketball.  We could also give some value to the free advertising that schools receive by being on television more often than they are in D3.  Athletic departments generally aren't concerned with generating profit to give back to the university general fund, they'll find ways to spend all their football/basketball profits and still ask for as much as they can from the university.

Offline jknezek

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #413 on: January 11, 2012, 10:51:52 am »
This thread went from an intellengent well-thought-out debate to just flat out ridiculousness

Yep. I gave up on it quite a while ago. Now I read it for the same reason I still look at the comics in the paper...

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?
« Reply #414 on: January 11, 2012, 11:27:29 am »
Yep. I'm declaring it over. Too bad -- it was a good conversation.
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