Author Topic: Scoring Questions  (Read 4050 times)

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Scoring Questions
« on: October 20, 2013, 07:24:26 pm »
A head-scratcher to me: in the final Tigers game of the season :(, Drew Smyly threw all of two pitches.  (I'm totally p.o.ed at Leyland's underuse of Smyly, who I think may be the most valuable member of the bullpen, but that is a different rant. ;))  The batter he faced reached base on a rare error by Jose Iglesias; later scored on Victorino's season-ending grand-slam.  Smyly was charged with an earned run - how can that be?  (If Iglesias makes the play, that would have only been the second out - no realistic chance of a DP - if that matters.)  Since the error did not avoid ending the inning, I understand the runs being earned - except shouldn't it be 3 earned runs, 1 unearned on the Grand Slam?  Seems totally bizarre that Smyly could be charged an earned run for a guy who reached base on an error (though if all 4 runs are earned, who else could it be given to?); can anyone clarify?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 09:55:04 pm by Mr. Ypsi »

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 09:53:38 pm »
A head-scratcher to me: in the final Tigers game of the season :(, Drew Smyly threw all of two pitches.  (I'm totally p.o.ed at Leyland's underuse of Smyly, who I think may be the most valuable member of the bullpen, but that is a different rant. ;))  The batter he faced reached base on a rare error by Jose Iglesias; later scored on Victorino's season-ending grand-slam.  Smyly was charged with an earned run - how can that be?  (If Iglesias makes the play, that would have only been the second out - no realistic chance of a DP - if that matters.)  Since the error did not avoid ending the inning, I understand the runs being earned - except shouldn't it be 3 earned runs, 1 unearned on the Grand Slam?  Seems totally bizarre that Smyly could be charged an earned run for a guy who reached base on an error (though if all 4 runs are earned, who else could it be given to?); can anyone clarify?

In my best Emily Litella voice: "Nevermind." ;D

The official box score got it right: no earned run charged to Smyly, and only 3 earned runs on the grand slam.  You may now resume your normal activities. :D

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 07:30:37 pm »
A head-scratcher to me: in the final Tigers game of the season :(, Drew Smyly threw all of two pitches.  (I'm totally p.o.ed at Leyland's underuse of Smyly, who I think may be the most valuable member of the bullpen, but that is a different rant. ;)

Should have never taken Scherzer out. No one in their pen is any good and you take your co-ace off the mound?

Really didn't expect him to make the same mistake twice in the same series. Detroit had the best team but Leyland overmanaged.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 08:27:08 pm »
One of the worst inconsistencies in scoring: if a batter flies out to drive in a run, it is no at bat and does not affect his BA.  If a batter hits a ground out which drives in a run, he is charged with an out and his BA goes down.  Can anyone explain the reasoning?

Offline dahlby

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 11:54:35 pm »
Mr. Y,
 Google "sacrifice fly" for a complete definition of the criteria. I have questioned our SID many times at a BB game
why a ball hit to the infield does not count as an RBI, but a fly ball to the outfield, fair or foul, can give the hitter
an . Maybe it has to do with perceived intent.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 11:56:53 pm by dahlby »

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 11:08:01 am »
Mr. Y,
 Google "sacrifice fly" for a complete definition of the criteria. I have questioned our SID many times at a BB game
why a ball hit to the infield does not count as an RBI, but a fly ball to the outfield, fair or foul, can give the hitter
an . Maybe it has to do with perceived intent.

I have little doubt that the 'intent' in both cases was getting a hit! ;)

Offline Jim Dixon

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 08:15:42 pm »
One of the worst inconsistencies in scoring: if a batter flies out to drive in a run, it is no at bat and does not affect his BA.  If a batter hits a ground out which drives in a run, he is charged with an out and his BA goes down.  Can anyone explain the reasoning?

I think that a sacrifice fly that moves a runner from 1st to 2nd, or second to third should also count as a sac fly.

My best guess why a ground out generates an AB is that the fielder could always make a play at home.  If you have a sac fly, the fielder cannot prevent the runner from scoring.  There are some ground balls that will never get the runner but this is the best rational I can present at this time.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 09:05:52 pm »
One of the worst inconsistencies in scoring: if a batter flies out to drive in a run, it is no at bat and does not affect his BA.  If a batter hits a ground out which drives in a run, he is charged with an out and his BA goes down.  Can anyone explain the reasoning?

I think that a sacrifice fly that moves a runner from 1st to 2nd, or second to third should also count as a sac fly.

My best guess why a ground out generates an AB is that the fielder could always make a play at home.  If you have a sac fly, the fielder cannot prevent the runner from scoring.  There are some ground balls that will never get the runner but this is the best rational I can present at this time.

Agreed. 

As to the second part, I also thought that a grounder might be a double play, while a fly ball only rarely will be.

But I still think it is a stupid inconsistency.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 11:12:07 pm »
A new question.  Jordan Zimmermann (UWSP) gave up a single, which Justin Upton promptly turned into the runner reaching third after misplaying the bounce.  Next batter hit a sac fly - obvious unearned run, yes?  Before the third out, there was a single, double, and another single, yielding another run.  BOTH runs were scored as earned.  Is that because the runner would presumably have scored eventually even without the error, or was the scoring in error?

Incidentally, Jordan is back in form.  After a horrendous start to the season, he has yielded only 5 runs in 20 innings in June.  After that first inning kerfluffle, he yielded only two hits in the next seven innings.  Alas, the fantastic run support, which gave him a winning record despite a horrible ERA, deserted him tonight, losing 2-1.

Offline AllStar

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 02:55:46 am »
A new question.  Jordan Zimmermann (UWSP) gave up a single, which Justin Upton promptly turned into the runner reaching third after misplaying the bounce.  Next batter hit a sac fly - obvious unearned run, yes?  Before the third out, there was a single, double, and another single, yielding another run.  BOTH runs were scored as earned.  Is that because the runner would presumably have scored eventually even without the error, or was the scoring in error?

Incidentally, Jordan is back in form.  After a horrendous start to the season, he has yielded only 5 runs in 20 innings in June.  After that first inning kerfluffle, he yielded only two hits in the next seven innings.  Alas, the fantastic run support, which gave him a winning record despite a horrible ERA, deserted him tonight, losing 2-1.

You always want to reconstruct the inning with errorless play (including passed balls) when determining earned and unearned runs.  In the situation you mention, if the runner would have presumably scored without the error, it would be earned.  So, with the runner at first (without the error), the subsequent hits you mentioned would have scored him anyway without the error, so it would be earned.  I believe the scoring was correct.

Offline hockeyfan77

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 04:48:37 pm »
A new question.  Jordan Zimmermann (UWSP) gave up a single, which Justin Upton promptly turned into the runner reaching third after misplaying the bounce.  Next batter hit a sac fly - obvious unearned run, yes?  Before the third out, there was a single, double, and another single, yielding another run.  BOTH runs were scored as earned.  Is that because the runner would presumably have scored eventually even without the error, or was the scoring in error?

Incidentally, Jordan is back in form.  After a horrendous start to the season, he has yielded only 5 runs in 20 innings in June.  After that first inning kerfluffle, he yielded only two hits in the next seven innings.  Alas, the fantastic run support, which gave him a winning record despite a horrible ERA, deserted him tonight, losing 2-1.

You always want to reconstruct the inning with errorless play (including passed balls) when determining earned and unearned runs.  In the situation you mention, if the runner would have presumably scored without the error, it would be earned.  So, with the runner at first (without the error), the subsequent hits you mentioned would have scored him anyway without the error, so it would be earned.  I believe the scoring was correct.

This is correct

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 06:54:55 pm »
New scoring questions.  I'm trying to decipher some of the finer points of BA and OB%.  BA goes by at bats; OB% by PAs.  A walk is irrelevant to BA (not an AB), but raises the OB%.  A sacrifice is not an AB, so doesn't lower the BA, but does it lower the OB%?  It's a PA and an out, but for a worthy cause. ;)  And reaching base due to a fielding error lowers the BA; but the batter DID get on base - lower OB%, no change, or higher?

Offline AllStar

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2018, 06:39:25 pm »
New scoring questions.  I'm trying to decipher some of the finer points of BA and OB%.  BA goes by at bats; OB% by PAs.  A walk is irrelevant to BA (not an AB), but raises the OB%.  A sacrifice is not an AB, so doesn't lower the BA, but does it lower the OB%?  It's a PA and an out, but for a worthy cause. ;)  And reaching base due to a fielding error lowers the BA; but the batter DID get on base - lower OB%, no change, or higher?

Quote
A sacrifice is not an AB, so doesn't lower the BA, but does it lower the OB%?

I believe it does.

Quote
And reaching base due to a fielding error lowers the BA; but the batter DID get on base - lower OB%, no change, or higher?

OBP does not credit the batter for reaching on errors, I don't believe.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:43:24 pm by AllStar »

Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2018, 07:30:42 pm »
OBP = H + BB + HBP/AB + BB + HBP + SF

reaching on an error does in fact lower your OBP, which I guess is a touch counter-intuitive, but there you go.

dropping down a sac bunt does not lower your OBP, but hitting a sac fly does.

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Scoring Questions
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 11:08:28 pm »
OBP = H + BB + HBP/AB + BB + HBP + SF

reaching on an error does in fact lower your OBP, which I guess is a touch counter-intuitive, but there you go.

dropping down a sac bunt does not lower your OBP, but hitting a sac fly does.
[/b]

Thanks, guys.  I'm happy to see the distinction made between a sac bunt and a sac fly.  The bunt is almost always a deliberate sacrifice for the cause; a sac fly is generally an attempted hit that happened to drive in a run.

I wanted to get a clearer picture, because while NO stat by itself is without shortcomings and limitations (and even distortions), if I HAD to go by just one hitting stat my nominee would be OPS.