Author Topic: Rule and Policy Changes  (Read 14418 times)

Offline hopefan

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Rule and Policy Changes
« on: June 24, 2015, 09:48:06 am »
I just learned that exhibition games, previously limited to preseason dates only, are now permitted during the in season schedule.   There is no date limitation.   In prior years, exhibition games were easy to identify because they occurred before the permissable season opening date.  Now these in season games will be difficult to identify, leading to potential errors in stating team win-loss records and statistics.  In scheduling for 2015-16 posted on some sites, I've already found 2 examples of exhibition games within the season, unidentified as such on team schedules.  I wonder if there is a requirement that these games are formally I.D.'d to the NCAA, and obviously D3hoops.com needs to be careful in their reporting with accuracy....

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2015, 05:31:34 pm »
This seems to continue what has already been in place for a long time, BUT is a confusing point of reference for Division III and other divisions. I read through what was presented at the NCAA Convention and actually found nothing different than what was already in place except two things: elimination of the Basketball Hall of Fame reference (it doesn't pertain to DIII) and the ability for teams to classify a scrimmage, exhibition, or practice with any other team as simply one of the two dates they can do such a thing before the season begins (it used to be spelled out you could have two of these, or one of these, or... etc. - rather confusing).

I do read it say the following "contests (games, scrimmages, and exhibitions) are permitted before the first contest dates:
(a) Exhibitions, Scrimmages, and Joint Practices. A maximum of two exhibitions, scrimmages, or joint practices (may include competition) against any outside team may be conducted between the first permissible date for on-court preseason practice and the conclusion of the basketball season."


That rewarding actually eliminates the October 31 start date that existed in the past.

Also, here is what was also part of that rule as of last year's Division III Manual:
"(d) NCAA Division I or II Institution. An institution may play one exhibition or scrimmage (which shall not count toward the institutionís win-loss record) against a Division I or II institution on or after October 31 and before the first permissible contest date;"

What I can't figure out (because the recent Manual is not available for downloading or viewing, as of yet, is whether that is still a restriction. In the Convention Handbook it doesn't mention this "rule" ... but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I also missed any discussion of this at the Convention when I was there.

But note the "first permissible contest date" ... that is what has gotten schools in trouble in the past. It happened last year with a team that played a DI program in late November or early December under the guise it was an exhibition... however, the DI program rightly declared the game a real contest and the DIII program had to scramble and cancel a non-conference game at the very last minute or they would have been over the limit of contest dates.

I will reach out to a number of contacts that could better answer this - or at least get my hands on the new manual - and let you know what I find out. I will say, that we at D3hoops have the ability to note exhibition games at any point in the season and SIDs have done so on our schedules as well. The trick is whether those games are truly exhibitions or not and if there has been a drastic change in that rule, I will find out.
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Offline hopefan

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 10:01:06 pm »
Dave... for instance... Concordia-Chicago schedule is up on its site... 26 games... one of which is with Valparaiso, one with Chicago State... neither is designated on the schedule as an exhibition game, both are in-season.. likely, one or the other is an exhibition, but which one?

NOTE : prior to the 2014-15 change, 17.3.3.1 (d) said "An institution may play one exhibition or scrimmage (which shall not count toward the institution's w-l record) against a Division I or II institution on or after October 31 and before the first permissible contest date...

I didn't realize the exhibition game could be played in-season last year... it just came to my attention while I was reviewing 2015-16 schedules
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 10:14:14 pm by hopefan »

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2015, 01:57:35 pm »
The thing is... an exhibition game against a D1 or D2 school could NOT be played in-season last year and prior. There was confusion as some teams did schedule these games as exhibitions and as at least one discovered due to my inquiry last season... they were in violation and could have had 26 contest-dates causing problems. In fact, I think there was a women's program who played one-too many games and has sanctions coming if memory serves.

Now, I am in an ongoing conversation with those at the NCAA. It does appear the restriction of having those exhibitions take place prior to Nov. 15 (or Nov. 13 this season) may actually have been dropped from the regulations - but again, there is confusion in everything I am reading. I actually have a phone-call slated for later today to get more clarification.

IF indeed the regulation has been changed - and I am of the opinion it has been - then the schools have to designate which games are exhibition (joint practice, scrimmage) and make sure their opponent is of the same mind-set. Once they do that, when the games are put in the schedules... they have to be designated as such. Usually we (D3hoops staff) will notice irregularities like these and check the schedules on those program websites. If it is still unclear, I at least in the past have reached out to the SID and/or coach for further clarification so that our schedule reflects the correct games as being real contests. Obviously, with a change in the regulation... that due diligence will be a bit more important - but we can also adjust those items after the fact if necessary. What it certainly will mean to SIDs and others is that they reflect the appropriate information when reporting games, schedules, etc. to the NCAA.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2015, 02:52:29 pm »
OK... got it all clarified thanks to a phone call with those at the NCAA.

The rules have been adjusted to hopefully clear up confusion with the original rules... but they may cause some other questions. I hope I did a good enough job being a Devil's Advocate to answer those questions as well.

First off... the permissible date to play exhibitions against pretty much ANYONE has been changed from anytime from Oct. 15 to the championship game in Division III. That means a DIII team who wants to play at DI or DII team can do so anytime in that time frame. Originally, those exhibitions had to be played after Oct. 31 and prior to Nov. 15 or the first permissible date of the season for DIII .

They key is that DIII institutions are only allowed TWO exhibitions, joint practices, or scrimmage games between Oct. 15 and the end of the season. So yes... Concordia-Chicago can have their games against Valparaiso and Chicago State either both as exhibitions or any combination no matter when they get played. However, if they have one or two other scrimmage/exhibition/joint practice games ... they have to plan accordingly (alumni games are exempt from all regulations in these cases).

Now the rub... DI and DII programs can count the games as real contests while DIII does not have to if they are declaring them exhibitions. We have seen this before when DI or DII seasons have started and DIII has not (i.e. Transylvania at Kentucky). In those scenarios, the DI or DII program has the game count as a win or loss along with the stats, while the game does not count in any form and no stats are official for the DIII program. This continues now for any game that the DIII program decides is an exhibition (of their two permitted) at any time in the season.

THIS could cause a lot of confusion and if coaches are not communicating with SIDs, in particular, and a player plays in that game who later the thought was his eligibility hadn't been used... there are going to be issues. The SIDs need to know the official games and the like when reporting everything to the NCAA (or compliance people). It is hard to solve an eligibility problem three years later than it is to not have the problem in the first place. Per my phone call today, I do think this may be looked at in the near future and seeing if both parties have to count the game as an exhibition may be added to the wording - but that will be up for a vote at a future Convention if it gets that far.

Of course as I mentioned in a previous post... as far as D3hoops and others knowing on our schedules what are exhibition games and which aren't... that first resides with the person putting in the schedule and then with us double-checking with the schools. However, I can tell you now knowing the staffing we have and the amount of hours it takes for Pat, Gordon, and myself to double-(triple)check schedules in October and November (and beyond), items like this are going to slip through and occasionally we will have to adjust them after the fact. Not the end of the world, to be sure... but as I mentioned in the previous paragraph - you hope a school doesn't get counted for an extra contest or two in the eyes of the NCAA because the program and department didn't do a good enough job communicating what games are real contests and what aren't.

Finally I will say... this could all be for not in a year or two. There is a complex and thorough review of all playing and practice seasons underway in Division III. This stemmed from the attempt at the last Convention to decrease the number of games in nearly all sports in Division III by 10%. That was going to be soundly defeated in January, but there is a consensus that some seasons are out of whack and I know the basketball four-week preseason is something many, including coaches, think has gotten a little ridiculous. After the review and once it passes through different committees (Management and Presidents Councils), it will be up for a vote at the NCAA Convention. That could change even this idea of playing DI and DII teams in exhibitions any time of the season - you just never know.
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Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 12:12:20 pm »
Yeah, I thought it was weird when I saw UW-Superior with two in-season exhibition games.Sioux Falls and UWGB.
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Offline magicman

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 05:53:50 am »
In 2011-12 Buffalo State played an in-season exhibition game against DI University of Buffalo on January 4th 2012. Buff State thought it was an exhibition game but the NCAA called it a regular season game and D3hoops counted it in their record. They ended up with 26 games in the regular season and the talk in the conference was that they would be prohibited from playing in the SUNYAC Tournament and NCAA Tournament. They finished the regular season with an 18-8 record.The NCAA however allowed them to play in the SUNYAC Tournament and their season ended when they lost to Brockport State in the 1st round. Here's the link showing Buffalo State's D3hoops season record:

http://d3hoops.com/teams/Buffalo_State/men/2011-12/index

Offline magicman

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 05:57:47 am »
By the way good job clarifying everything, Dave. Plus K

Offline amh63

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 10:00:53 am »
Wow....got around to reading some posts here.  Seems the NCAA rules people have been taking some lessons from those people writing our health and tax codes!  Oh well, idle minds can generate mischief :).
Magicman....glad to hear from you.  A little concern about the activities in your "neck of the woods".
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 02:37:17 pm »
Just and FYI... this was something the NCAA wanted to clear up and worked with the men's and women's basketball committees (and coaching associations) to work on... it was something that slipped past me in January when at the NCAA Convention. I will have better eyes on these kinds of things down the road.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 04:37:32 pm »
Due to all the changes in basketball this year, I put a special Hoopsville show together. It isn't anything incredible visually, but I talk to members of the rules committees and an AD about the changes: http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2015-16/rules-special
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Offline 7express

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2015, 11:52:21 pm »
I really hate the 4 quarters in the women's game and 1,000% agree with Dave in that blog he put together in May that I just found today.  I'd actually like it if the men went to it too (hey the NBA, Europe and every other international/high school competition is 4 quarters as well...) but hate it with just the women using is.  Dave mentioned something like this in the blog: assume you're a freshmen at college this year, and want to get into basketball.  Since most games in D-3 are double headers, you go to the women's game first and see they play four 10 minute quarters, and then the men's game starts and to your utter surprise you see them play two 20 minute halves, and you're wondering to yourself "with a few slight changes [now mainly the size of the ball the biggest difference]) both men & women play the same game with the same rules, how can the game length be completely different between the gender leagues??"  Incredibly stupid!

This is mainly for division 1 only, and for division 3 only a select few teams, but the 30 second shot clock gives a huge advantage to the power teams, with athletes that can run up and down the court.  The Western Connecticut team from 4 years ago with DaQuan Brooks I think could've done pretty well in this new format, but can't see many d-3 teams, maybe Amherst, and some Midwest/West teams; For division 1 see Duke, Kentucky, etc), but overall I like it.

I said this on another board but adding an extra foul would be another moronic move by Indianapolis and I'm really hoping this doesn't go through next year.  Like the 30 second shot clock that gives another huge advantage to top tier teams with a lot of depth at forward & center and it still doesn't solve the problem by playing defense without fouling which most of these 4 & 5 guys in college can't do, so your going to reward them by giving them an EXTRA foul now??  If anything they should REDUCE the number of fouls from 5 to 4, actually make these guys play defense. 
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2015, 01:09:42 pm »
Just and FYI - the extra foul or any rule change won't go into affect for two years as the rules cycle through in two year segments. That doesn't mean some changes can't wait that long, but something like that won't happen next year. Furthermore, I have not seen a lot of momentum behind it outside of some D1s and ultimately, they can get out voted potentially.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2015, 01:22:23 pm »
I really hate the 4 quarters in the women's game and 1,000% agree with Dave in that blog he put together in May that I just found today.  I'd actually like it if the men went to it too (hey the NBA, Europe and every other international/high school competition is 4 quarters as well...) but hate it with just the women using is.  Dave mentioned something like this in the blog: assume you're a freshmen at college this year, and want to get into basketball.  Since most games in D-3 are double headers, you go to the women's game first and see they play four 10 minute quarters, and then the men's game starts and to your utter surprise you see them play two 20 minute halves, and you're wondering to yourself "with a few slight changes [now mainly the size of the ball the biggest difference]) both men & women play the same game with the same rules, how can the game length be completely different between the gender leagues??"  Incredibly stupid!

This is mainly for division 1 only, and for division 3 only a select few teams, but the 30 second shot clock gives a huge advantage to the power teams, with athletes that can run up and down the court.  The Western Connecticut team from 4 years ago with DaQuan Brooks I think could've done pretty well in this new format, but can't see many d-3 teams, maybe Amherst, and some Midwest/West teams; For division 1 see Duke, Kentucky, etc), but overall I like it.

I said this on another board but adding an extra foul would be another moronic move by Indianapolis and I'm really hoping this doesn't go through next year.  Like the 30 second shot clock that gives another huge advantage to top tier teams with a lot of depth at forward & center and it still doesn't solve the problem by playing defense without fouling which most of these 4 & 5 guys in college can't do, so your going to reward them by giving them an EXTRA foul now??  If anything they should REDUCE the number of fouls from 5 to 4, actually make these guys play defense.

For the women, I don't think the time is as much a factor as the other changes that go along with it.  Shooting two FTs after the 4th foul each quarter is quick.  No 1 and 1 at all.  There are fewer timeouts as well.  I was talking with some women's players today who mentioned defensive discipline and FT shooting will be much more important this year than last.  It should be interesting.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Rule and Policy Changes
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2015, 01:23:41 pm »
It will allow the game to move more quickly without the freight train to the free throw line as early as 12 minutes left in a half like we see across college basketball in the past.
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