Author Topic: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019  (Read 6933 times)


Offline gordonmann

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
  • Karma: +494/-46
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 02:28:06 pm »

Offline AO

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 3526
  • Karma: +1639/-1508
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 02:49:25 pm »
I like this one better. :)

http://d3hoops.com/notables/2017/04/men-championships-leave-salem
Sorry Gordon, didn't see your article before I posted. 

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 21194
  • Karma: +2400/-768
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2017, 03:06:31 pm »
'fess up, Gordo. You've been sitting on that "Salem ain't so" pun for awhile now in expectation of this possibility, haven't you? ;)
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline gordonmann

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
  • Karma: +494/-46
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 03:06:56 pm »
S'okay. It might not have been posted yet.

Greg, actually it came to me last night! :)

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 21194
  • Karma: +2400/-768
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 03:32:32 pm »
Anyway, nice job with the quick coverage. I've been impressed with how fast the d3sports.com staff has been all over this story -- especially since there's multiple sports involved, each with its own post-Salem ramifications.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Pat Coleman

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • Administrator
  • All-American
  • *****
  • Posts: 37599
  • Karma: +4580/-2226
  • Check the front page or FAQs before you ask.
    • View Profile
    • D3sports.com
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 04:21:25 pm »
We have quality sources and we work hard.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Offline Greek Tragedy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 13092
  • Karma: +865/-333
  • I'm my dad's mini-me!
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 11:32:14 am »
We have quality sources and we work hard.

I can probably speak for everyone. We definitely appreciate your hard work!
Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

Offline ziggy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 2103
  • Karma: +767/-346
    • View Profile
    • Detroit Jock City
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 11:41:11 am »
The sense I've gotten from following D3Hoops.com in the past that while the NCAA was open to sites other than Salem, it would take a really impressive alternative for a move to happen. Maybe I'm overrating that feeling, or the NCAA became more open to a change, but I was wondering if anyone has insight into the decision-making process in choosing Fort Wayne over Salem.

It seems to me one big positive of Fort Wayne is the possibility of better attendance numbers less reliant on the traveling party from the participating schools. Fort Wayne puts the Final Four within easy (emphasis on easy) driving distance of a greater number of Division III fans, particularly those from conferences among the Division III attendance leaders.
MIAA Pick 'Em Champion - 2010, 2011 (retired)
D3 Men's National Pick 'Em League Champion - 2014

Detroit Jock City

Offline Greek Tragedy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 13092
  • Karma: +865/-333
  • I'm my dad's mini-me!
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 02:47:55 pm »
I think the thought of the casual D3 fan or fans not associated with any of the Final Four teams attending the Final Four is really non-existent. I think a lot of schools have a hard time attracting their own fans to attend games, let alone the casual observer. I mean, I can say that it's an easy 5+ hour, 3-day weekend get away for me, but who else is going to say that?
 I'm a Pointer fan and I'm 2+ hrs away from Stevens Point. Lakeland University, my alma mater, is 15 minutes away, yet I have a hard time getting motivated to drive out to the corn fields and watch them play. So, to ask a casual fan to drive an hour or more to see four teams they know nothing about...that's a lot to bank on. I mean, there's a reason L.A. can't hold a NFL team despite having millions of people in the area.
Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11596
  • Karma: +603/-340
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 03:15:35 pm »
The sense I've gotten from following D3Hoops.com in the past that while the NCAA was open to sites other than Salem, it would take a really impressive alternative for a move to happen. Maybe I'm overrating that feeling, or the NCAA became more open to a change, but I was wondering if anyone has insight into the decision-making process in choosing Fort Wayne over Salem.

It seems to me one big positive of Fort Wayne is the possibility of better attendance numbers less reliant on the traveling party from the participating schools. Fort Wayne puts the Final Four within easy (emphasis on easy) driving distance of a greater number of Division III fans, particularly those from conferences among the Division III attendance leaders.

They seemed to emphasize not wanting to have one location synonymous with a championship anymore.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Offline iwumichigander

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1851
  • Karma: +264/-107
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 01:16:41 pm »
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships.  On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2.  Why not D3 men's?

On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports. 

And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools.  While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip. 

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8834
  • Karma: +637/-377
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 03:15:12 pm »
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships.  On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2.  Why not D3 men's?

On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports. 

And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools.  While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip.

Except you don't know that women have struggled with the moving around concept. Ironically they are moving to four different sites in these latest decisions, but one topic that continued to pop up on Hoopsville this year was women's coaches and others (like the WBCA Executive Director) talking about finding a more permanent home like the men... and I am quite sure their two visits to Salem were trial balloons about (a) being in Salem and (b) being together with the men's event (even if in a different building at the same time). The women have had hit or miss experiences in the last ten years... most of them misses and really low attendance. Just because you see an event move around doesn't mean that is the better idea. Heck, Calvin announced that the last women's final four was going to be the last one they hosted (maybe for all sports). Virginia Wesleyan and others have not put back in to host basketball. There isn't as much interest as people think.

As for qualifying for sectional and regional events in other sports - I don't think there is any correlation between getting a basketball final four and hosting something else... or having a team qualify for another event. None. I just don't see it.

And don't compare this to D1... because D1 is about something completely different then the fact the event is or isn't in Salem for DIII. There is a TON of money outside of the final four in DI that cities clamor to get their hands on. It is a week long event. That just doesn't happen in DIII and you aren't going to get the same economic boost you get in DI which only goes to big cities.

And DII has moved around a little bit, but not a lot. My memory says they have basically been to the same cities for the most part. What happens in DII and I doesn't necessary equate to DIII ... nor the other way around, either.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Onward on, John Carroll

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
  • Karma: +39/-8
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 10:16:05 am »
NCAA may be using a "spread the wealth " philosophy I changing multiple venues for championships.  On the men's side, the NCAA has had success spreading the wealth with D1&2.  Why not D3 men's?

On the women's side, the NCAA has had success with moving the venue for women's basketball championship; and, in so doing, several member institutions have been able to qualify for sectional and regional events in other sports. 

And, Ft. Wayne does meet a neutral court criteria while answering the grumbles from the middle of the US with a big concentration of D3 schools.  While I enjoy Salem, it is a long trip.

Except you don't know that women have struggled with the moving around concept. Ironically they are moving to four different sites in these latest decisions, but one topic that continued to pop up on Hoopsville this year was women's coaches and others (like the WBCA Executive Director) talking about finding a more permanent home like the men... and I am quite sure their two visits to Salem were trial balloons about (a) being in Salem and (b) being together with the men's event (even if in a different building at the same time). The women have had hit or miss experiences in the last ten years... most of them misses and really low attendance. Just because you see an event move around doesn't mean that is the better idea. Heck, Calvin announced that the last women's final four was going to be the last one they hosted (maybe for all sports). Virginia Wesleyan and others have not put back in to host basketball. There isn't as much interest as people think.

As for qualifying for sectional and regional events in other sports - I don't think there is any correlation between getting a basketball final four and hosting something else... or having a team qualify for another event. None. I just don't see it.

And don't compare this to D1... because D1 is about something completely different then the fact the event is or isn't in Salem for DIII. There is a TON of money outside of the final four in DI that cities clamor to get their hands on. It is a week long event. That just doesn't happen in DIII and you aren't going to get the same economic boost you get in DI which only goes to big cities.

And DII has moved around a little bit, but not a lot. My memory says they have basically been to the same cities for the most part. What happens in DII and I doesn't necessary equate to DIII ... nor the other way around, either.

Maybe you both are right, to a point.  I was think the same thing you were thinking, Dave:  there is not a lot of money to be made and economic impact to be enjoyed by hosting these events.  I also do not think these events will be well attended by neutral fans regardless of where you host it.  While almost every school has their base of hardcore fans at the D3 level (some more than others), there are very few schools that have large followings.  And few of those hardcore fans -- regardless of school -- are going to attend a D3 Final Four.  What we are expecting is for a town to adopt the event and it becomes THE thing to do that weekend for a significant amount of people. Unfortunately, I just do not see that happening.  I did not see it happen in Salem and I do not think it will happen in Fort Wayne or anywhere else.  My prediction goes for the Stagg Bowl too.

So, that being from where I am coming, why move it and rotate it on a regular basis?  All I can think is that they will get bids from second and third tier cities (your Ft Waynes, Cantons, Scrantons, Eries, Toledos, etc) with a pressure and a desire to book a couple nights in their new or remodeled civic centers and fill a few hotel rooms and as part of the NCAA's Bid Packets, the NCAA will require that they find and guarantee x dollars of corporate sponsorship, y dollars of ticket sales and other perks for the team.  They do that a few times, maybe the cities think it is worth bringing it back, maybe they walk away and refuse to re-bid.

So, while I do not think the "NCAA is spreading the wealth" because, as Dave said, there is no wealth to be spread, I do think that this method could allow them to get more bids and more attractive bids from people who think these events are something they are not or who have the ego to think that they will be able to make the event bigger than it is.  This could keep the NCAA in a better financial position than dealing with a consistent host city that can come back to them and say "the economics are just not working."

We all love D3 athletics on here but most of us are also very much aware that the crowd for these championships, for the most part, will always consist of the two schools' fans. People who think that 8,000 neutral fans are showing up in Canton for a non-Mount Union/OAC/NCAC Stagg Bowl are not being honest with themselves.  Same with Fort Wayne for basketball and, frankly, same for Salem.

Offline gordonmann

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
  • Karma: +494/-46
    • View Profile
Re: Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 10:54:44 am »
Good stuff, OJC. +k

Reading the local newspaper coverage in Fort Wayne, I saw that they estimate the financial impact of hosting the men's final four is $575,000 and the impact of hosting the Division I NCAA women's basketball regional is $1.2 million. The Fort Wayne MSA economy is $19.5 billion so neither of these events make a difference on their own.

I got the sense from reading information on the Fort Wayne and Detroit bids (they bid on the Stagg Bowl) that they were trying to position their cities for other larger events. "Let's show them we can do X and then maybe we'll get Y." From that perspective hosting a Division III final four might be a "loss leader" in a business strategy.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 10:57:30 am by gordonmann »