Author Topic: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships  (Read 42000 times)

Offline smedindy

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 10279
  • Karma: +1110/-920
  • ‘Heliotrope, Hell!’ orated he: ‘We want blood!’
    • View Profile
    • Music reviews for one and all, or me at least.
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2017, 04:55:59 pm »
Quite a few schools have to fly to Salem, too.

It's about 625 miles or so from Chicago. A little shy of 500 from Indianapolis. A little over 500 from Ann Arbor, MI.

Both UMHB and WI-Oshkosh couldn't drive there.

How many UMHB and Oshkosh fans were at this year's Stagg Bowl?

Moving it to Canton just shifts the burden some - it's still over 550 miles from Oshkosh to Canton.

Offline crufootball

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1523
  • Karma: +222/-33
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2017, 04:56:44 pm »
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying

I am curious, what makes you know this is a horrible decision?

putting a championship game in a place which requires 99% of teams to fly to attend ($$$).  So you will have a small amount of support with a weeks notice.  The local support will be challenged by the Texas high school football playoffs going on at the exact same time.  It's nothing against Texas, it would be dumb to put the Stagg Bowl in Los Angeles or Seattle as well as Houston.  I'd love to hear the positives for hosting in Houston without you saying the word weather.  D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

If there are second guesses by Shenandoah, then the NCAA should do the right thing and pull it back to Salem

Every team in the Stagg Bowl since 2004 (admittedly a small list) has had to fly except for Mount Union. Fans of the UW schools had about 13 hours of drive time, St. Thomas fans had a 16 hour drive, UMHB is 18, and if you were truly crazy you drove from Linfield which was 41 hours. Yes the drives are even longer for the UW's and St. Thomas to get to Texas but the point is both locations make you drive a crazy amount of time to get to if you aren't on the team flight.

In terms of local support, I won't pretend to be able to tell how much support there will be. The Texas high school football playoffs will be going on but it is the semi-finals weekend so while those games do bring in a big crowd its not going up against the championship weekend which is what draws the huge crowds.




Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 28790
  • Karma: +1844/-419
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2017, 04:58:17 pm »
Interesting discussion. I'm only one passionate D3 fan, but here's my take.
I've driven to VA w family and friends many times for the Stagg and wouldn't hesitate to go again. I loved the stadium and the towns. I'd certainly do the same if it were in Canton.
Texas? That's tough. Now we are talking flights.
If my team was in the TX Stagg I'd likely buy the tix the first time. However, if it became a repeat situation like it was w UWW and Mt, I'd likely not attend every year.

The new Canton complex looks beautiful.
Fortunately Shenendoah is close to Houston Bush IAH so flights can be cheap (or fly into Hobby on Southwest and rent a car).

Offline Pat Coleman

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • Administrator
  • All-American
  • *****
  • Posts: 39207
  • Karma: +5131/-2353
  • Check the front page or FAQs before you ask.
    • View Profile
    • D3sports.com
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2017, 05:03:15 pm »
Six-day advance fares are never "cheap" anywhere, though.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Offline albatross

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Karma: +24/-2
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2017, 05:20:28 pm »
There is no way to know just how much Texas HS FB semis will detract from viewership because those games could be anywhere at the time. There's no guarantee of a specifically Houston-area game just yet. Now, a Houston team might be in the playoffs but it could be a "neutral" site or away site far away depending on coin flips and such...

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11485
  • Karma: +852/-543
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2017, 05:34:08 pm »
As an ODAC guy I'm sad Salem is out, but I've always maintained that the facility in Canton is a beautiful fit. It would be even better if the game shifted back to Saturday, making it a bit warmer and easier to get to and back, but that is probably true for all locations.

For the record, the games have been on Friday evening to give them a brighter spotlight. IMHO and many others who made the decision, better to have the game on ESPNU in primetime than on ESPNU or maybe ESPN2 at 12pm on a Saturday - buried by a lot of other games. It was actually the blizzard that delayed the game and made it primetime that revealed it might be better on a Friday night instead of a Saturday afternoon.

again, Canton is centrally located to the vast majority of D3 schools.  Within driving distance even!!  and if one of the few far away schools makes it to the Stagg Bowl, there is an airport three or four exits up the road. 

The NCAA absolutely favors Mount, it was just a fun exercise to put them on the road for every playoff game.  I think you should figure out how many past Stagg Bowl participants are within driving distance of Shenandoah and compare that vs the number that were within driving distance of Canton. 

This is not a proven fact, though. People love to say that games being "centrally" located will automatically draw crowds... but it has never been proven. There are plenty of championships in other locations around the country and many have been "centrally" located. Women's basketball has been in Hope and Calvin and the crowds have been... eh. Not even close to the crowds men's basketball brings in at a non-centrally located place by the definition thrown around here. It is wonderful to think that because the game is "closer" to some schools that suddenly crowds will show up... but who exactly is coming? If ones team isn't in the game, are a lot of fans suddenly going to get in their car and head to the game? Sure, the schools involved might have more of their fans coming, but they also might have the exact same number showing up in Salem. Usually, climbing on a bus is climbing on a bus ... period. (I would know. I spent an entire year of my life traveling on a bus before spending my collegiate life doing more of the same.)

I get the idea that games in Canton, Fort Wayne (basketball), and other locations seem to be perfect because they are "centrally" located, but I have yet to see the proof in the pudding and, to be honest, I am not holding my breathe that suddenly there will be a leap in attendance for these events. Let's wait and see, but especially in DIII the attendance is more related to those playing not where the games are located.

And yes... Texas may have the toughest chance to bring in fans .. but maybe they surprise everyone and this theory is all out of wack.

Keep in mind: soccer is in Greensboro, North Carolina. Had a lot more "centrally" located places to go, but sometimes that idea just doesn't hold any water for the committees.

BTW - love the comment that the NW part of the country and California are just as screwed as Texas. The only difference: no bids from those other two locales. :)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline merlecanlas

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
  • Karma: +74/-261
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2017, 06:00:11 pm »
I'm an absolute Canton homer, and I am stoked for the chance to show off on D3's biggest stage.  I think we will put on quite the show.  Getting back to the original topic, I think that Shenandoah was an iffy choice to being with and now if there are financial issues, it raises quite the red flag.  I guess we will see at the 10/15 council meeting. 

If Mount goes to the two Stagg Bowls in Texas, I will likely be driving or finding a "cheap" flight to be down there. 

What a year for D3FB so far, tons of topics to discuss

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 11485
  • Karma: +852/-543
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2017, 12:56:20 pm »
I'm an absolute Canton homer, and I am stoked for the chance to show off on D3's biggest stage.  I think we will put on quite the show.  Getting back to the original topic, I think that Shenandoah was an iffy choice to being with and now if there are financial issues, it raises quite the red flag.  I guess we will see at the 10/15 council meeting. 

If Mount goes to the two Stagg Bowls in Texas, I will likely be driving or finding a "cheap" flight to be down there. 

What a year for D3FB so far, tons of topics to discuss

I get your homerism... but that has led to some rather large assumptions. :)

Per the Shenandoah decision, let's pump the brakes just a bit. The board tabled discussion of approving a quarter-of-a-million dollars in spending until their next meeting. Let's see how that meeting goes. If they table it again or they shoot down the spending, then we have a discussion to be had. I am sure the NCAA has approved sites on many occasions where the city spending hasn't been approved. Some of these things are set many years in advance that boards don't have the ability to even consider the spending that far out. It is a topic to note and discuss, but I think calling it "iffy" and saying there are financial issues is a reach. They simply haven't rubber stamped something. Let them work on it on their own. If it is a bigger deal, we will find out. There is still time to work on this.

And good luck finding cheap flights with less than a week's notice. ;)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline merlecanlas

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
  • Karma: +74/-261
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2017, 02:30:10 pm »
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative

Online Ron Boerger

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7438
  • Karma: +710/-143
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2017, 03:11:59 pm »
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative

It's Item 10 on tomorrow's agenda:

10. Discussion and possible action to approve a contract for the 2018 NCAA Division III football championships.

From the agenda packet:

Quote
In a letter dated July 27, 2016, the City notified the NCAA of its intention to provide bids for football (Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl) for the years 2018-2022. The City was awarded the bid for 2018. The NCAA has sent an agreement outlining the terms and conditions associated with the hosting of this event. Initially, the City submitted the bid with the intention of covering all expenses associated with the event, however, will now be deferring the cost of the following to NCAA:
• Transportation and per diem reimbursement for participating teams;
• Transportation, lodging, per diem, and game fee for all officials;
• Transportation, lodging, and per diem for the NCAA sport committee;
• Game balls;
• Awards;
• Hydration product;
• Credentials.

The City of Shenandoah will assume financial responsibility for the following:
• Woodforest Stadium buyout;
• Artificial turf field painting and cleaning;
• Gagliardi Banquet;
• Championship Banquet;
• Fellowship of Christian Athletes Breakfast;
• Internet service (press/media needs);
• Tailgate;
• Hospitality;
• Security;
• Ticketing;
• Promotional Items;
• Advertising.
Estimated total expense for this event is around $165,000.00.

Staff recommends that the contract be signed and the City move forward with the 2018 Stagg Bowl. The amount of exposure that a bowl game might provide could potentially be quite great.

BUDGET JUSTIFICATION:
The governor’s office generally calculates economic impact by assuming that each attendee will spend $125.00 per
day on food and shopping. Staff has estimated that this event will bring about 116 student athletes to Shenandoah.
Staff estimates five guests per athlete. Accounting for various other NCAA, university, and coaching staff, staff
estimates that this event will bring about 900 people into Shenandoah. Using the economic impact formula provided
by the governor’s office, the expected economic impact is $221,750.00. This figure takes into account travel and
practice days. Staff estimates around 700 room nights from this event at the prenegotiated rate of $149.00 per night.
This means that the City’s revenue from hotel occupancy tax (7%) is expected to be around $7,301.00

BACKGROUND:
The NCAA Division III Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl has been held in Salem, Virginia since 1993, making 2018 the first year it
will be held outside of “DIII Territory” in 25 years. Staff has acquired Salem’s Stagg Bowl budget information for the past
three years and current year. Ticket sales are included with this information. The City of Salem has reported the following
information to NCAA:
2014 (Wisconsin-Whitewater/Mount Union): 5,081 spectator tickets;
2015 (Mount Union/St. Thomas MN): 5,153 spectator tickets;
2016 (Mary Hardin-Baylor/Wisconsin-Oshkosh): 3,388 spectator tickets;
2017: est. 4,900 tickets.
Actual attendance has been reported as:
2014: 5,465
2015: 5,343
2016: 3,476

Offline merlecanlas

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
  • Karma: +74/-261
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 03:34:30 pm »
I'd be shocked if they sign the agreement tomorrow.  Council members were "shocked at the cost" two weeks ago and thought that it would be a cost of $24,000 instead of $219k.   

where's the mention of 2019?

Online Ron Boerger

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7438
  • Karma: +710/-143
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 03:34:43 pm »
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative

Lordy.   They thought they would get the gate.  They originally told the NCAA they would pick up *all* costs, no wonder the AA chose them.   And in this discussion the council says they have "no legal obligation" to follow through until such a time as they sign off on this, and that if they do it in 2018 and it doesn't work they could just bail on 2019 since the AA would have time to find someone else.

Basically, whoever put the bid in had no idea what they were doing. 

Online Ron Boerger

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7438
  • Karma: +710/-143
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2017, 03:36:48 pm »
I'd be shocked if they sign the agreement tomorrow.  Council members were "shocked at the cost" two weeks ago and thought that it would be a cost of $24,000 instead of $219k.   

where's the mention of 2019?

From last week's discussion and this agenda item it is obvious they have no intention of committing to 2019 at this point.

Offline merlecanlas

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
  • Karma: +74/-261
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2017, 03:43:38 pm »
a texas trainwreck

Offline Ralph Turner

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 28790
  • Karma: +1844/-419
  • Hall of Famer
    • View Profile
Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 03:44:04 pm »
Do I interpret these data to be the "walk-up" ticket sales?

Quote
2014 (Wisconsin-Whitewater/Mount Union): 5,081 spectator tickets;
2015 (Mount Union/St. Thomas MN): 5,153 spectator tickets;
2016 (Mary Hardin-Baylor/Wisconsin-Oshkosh): 3,388 spectator tickets;
2017: est. 4,900 tickets.
Actual attendance has been reported as:
2014: 5,465
2015: 5,343
2016: 3,476

2014:  5465  - 5081   =   384
2015:  5343  - 5153   =   190
2016:  3476  -  3388  =   88