Author Topic: 2017-18 All American Predictions  (Read 6695 times)

Offline TheOsprey

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2018, 03:30:04 pm »
Preseason AA could only be used for POY.  Points came from players not on this list.

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2018, 03:30:42 pm »
Sorenson was a pre-season All-American. When picking a Player of the Year, you could use someone on that list. When simply posting the AA picks, you couldn't use anyone from the pre-season list, hence the (POTY) next to Sorenson's name. nescac1 and I chose Axelrod as our POTY, but we couldn't just use him as one of our AA players because he was a pre-season (1st team) AA.

Anyway, I'm not saying Curta is better than Francis or that Curta should be POTY in the region or even be 1st team. I was just saying that when you average 27 a game but it takes 20 to average that, that's not as impressive as it initially looks, in my opinion. He's a talent and he obviously plays in a better league...I'm not sure Roach should've been in there on the 1st team and I'm surprised Daly was 4th team.
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Offline hopefan

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2018, 09:32:19 pm »
OK, I'm gonna get in trouble, but First Team, Andrew Sanders?   Can't see it...

I don't know nation wide, who are legit big men, as I primarily read only the MIAA and CCIW board and write most of the SLIAC board...

But Sanders 16.9, 7.0, 55% field is certainly not elite level stats.. when I saw him in prior years, I'd walk away saying he missed too many close in shots, that he put the ball up too hard...

Compare to  big men not on 1st team AA
                  Sorenson (North Central)  numbers... 18.4, 9.0, 59%   3rd team AA   
                  Waters  (Albertus) ..............  26.5, 15.0, 54.8%    2nd team AA
                   Bruns  (Ohio Northern) .....   24.0, 8.7, 57.8%     2nd team AA
                  Monroe (Cabrini) ...........        21.5, 14.7, 50.9%       3rd team AA
                    Toney  (New Jersey City)........   20.6, 9.7, 47.5%     4th team AA

just wondering what the justification is, what put him over the hump....
                 

Offline AndOne

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2018, 10:58:45 pm »
He's an AA, just not a 1st teamer, imo. We agree to disagree.

27.4 ppg
4.8 rpg
4.4 apg

Against a very tough schedule.  Those are 1st Team All-American numbers as I see it.

I agree with Bob. Aston Francis is a pretty clear-cut first-teamer.

Is a guy whose coach goes on the post game radio show (more than once I believe) and criticizes his lack of effort on defense really a FIRST team All-American?  ???
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2018, 11:08:44 pm »
Sure. Coaches have their own ways of motivating players.

Mike Schauer has also made all sorts of public statements about his star player in which he exhausted the thesaurus while mining for superlatives to describe Aston Francis.
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Offline AndOne

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 12:25:30 am »
Sure. Coaches have their own ways of motivating players.

Mike Schauer has also made all sorts of public statements about his star player in which he exhausted the thesaurus while mining for superlatives to describe Aston Francis.

Sure coaches have their own ways of motivating players. But should a first team All-American need to be motivated? Shouldnít he come to the gym with the self motivation to excel? 🤔
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2018, 12:30:50 am »
I presume that those are rhetorical questions. All I can say is that, again, coaches have their own ways of motivating players. What you or I might consider to be a motivated player may be somebody that a coach thinks needs to have a fire lit under him. And we're not talking about every coach, either; coaches, and the players that they are trying to motivate, are unique individuals with their own personalities and ways of doing things.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2018, 07:38:16 am »
OK, I'm gonna get in trouble, but First Team, Andrew Sanders?   Can't see it...

I don't know nation wide, who are legit big men, as I primarily read only the MIAA and CCIW board and write most of the SLIAC board...

But Sanders 16.9, 7.0, 55% field is certainly not elite level stats.. when I saw him in prior years, I'd walk away saying he missed too many close in shots, that he put the ball up too hard...

Compare to  big men not on 1st team AA
                  Sorenson (North Central)  numbers... 18.4, 9.0, 59%   3rd team AA   
                  Waters  (Albertus) ..............  26.5, 15.0, 54.8%    2nd team AA
                   Bruns  (Ohio Northern) .....   24.0, 8.7, 57.8%     2nd team AA
                  Monroe (Cabrini) ...........        21.5, 14.7, 50.9%       3rd team AA
                    Toney  (New Jersey City)........   20.6, 9.7, 47.5%     4th team AA

just wondering what the justification is, what put him over the hump....
               

Not sure I can explain all of it, other than simply that stats are not a dominant criteria, although obviously involved.  We try to avoid going too much in detail with the thought process here, but I would say one of Pat's big themes for choosing any of our award "teams" is that they be five guys who would conceivably take the floor together.  I'm sure a good coach would find the right offense for whoever were her best athletes, but some combinations wouldn't necessarily be typical.  There are also other factors that go into it as well, consistency, all-around play, etc.  We're also basing these selections on the All-Region choices that are largely determined by a voting panel.

I'll say, if we were just choosing the five best individual players, it might not look like how we laid it out, but I'm very happy with the order we've got given the criteria we try to follow.  These guys are all high level players and it's a tough call in many instances - this is one year (and it doesn't happen every year) where there are many deserving players who didn't make any of the five teams.
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Offline Whit-MAN

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2018, 03:32:04 pm »
I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer. He averaged just under 19 points per game in only 22 minutes, shooting .527-- he has to easily be one of (if not THE) most efficient scorers in the nation with those numbers, despite ostensibly being the focus of every opposing defense (having been a Pre-Season 1st Team AA). His career averages along those lines aren't far off-- 17.2 points on 51% shooting... which would be GREAT numbers for a post player, but are absurd for a guard who drives and shoots floaters. Last season, by comparison he averaged one more point per game, but had fewer assists in 25 minutes per game.

Obviously winning or a team's record doesn't play in the selections, but just for fun-- Whitman is 60-3 in the last two years, which is more than a little crazy. Howell's teams were 104-14 in his time at Whitman, which is the best winning % in all of D3 and close to the best in all of NCAA basketball, according to the Whitman website. I realize it's not a career award, but hard to believe that there are 12 better guards out there. I would argue whatever small 'dips' happened in Howell's numbers actually HELPED Whitman win this year, as you saw other guys (Hewitt, Duckett, Osborne) come into more of their own.

Also, for the record, there are not 10 players (possibly including Howell) in the country better than Austin Butler. He'll never get an award simply because it's (legitimately) too hard for voters to stay up and watch him, and because he's not a scorer so his numbers will never be sexy enough, but the guy dominates SO many games for WM.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2018, 04:13:01 pm »
I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer. He averaged just under 19 points per game in only 22 minutes, shooting .527-- he has to easily be one of (if not THE) most efficient scorers in the nation with those numbers, despite ostensibly being the focus of every opposing defense (having been a Pre-Season 1st Team AA). His career averages along those lines aren't far off-- 17.2 points on 51% shooting... which would be GREAT numbers for a post player, but are absurd for a guard who drives and shoots floaters. Last season, by comparison he averaged one more point per game, but had fewer assists in 25 minutes per game.

Obviously winning or a team's record doesn't play in the selections, but just for fun-- Whitman is 60-3 in the last two years, which is more than a little crazy. Howell's teams were 104-14 in his time at Whitman, which is the best winning % in all of D3 and close to the best in all of NCAA basketball, according to the Whitman website. I realize it's not a career award, but hard to believe that there are 12 better guards out there. I would argue whatever small 'dips' happened in Howell's numbers actually HELPED Whitman win this year, as you saw other guys (Hewitt, Duckett, Osborne) come into more of their own.

Starting with the fact that Howell was a 2nd-Team All-Region... he was already limited with just how high he was going to get slotted.

Also, for the record, there are not 10 players (possibly including Howell) in the country better than Austin Butler. He'll never get an award simply because it's (legitimately) too hard for voters to stay up and watch him, and because he's not a scorer so his numbers will never be sexy enough, but the guy dominates SO many games for WM.

Butler wasn't nominated to All-Region... starts there. Trust me, the D3hoops.com staff lamented about that fact.
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Offline AndOne

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2018, 04:26:14 pm »
I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer.

No reason to be surprised especially when you consider that 3 of the other pre-season first teamers didnít make any AA team, not even HM! And thatís not the first time it has happened, nor will it be the last.

If you want to be surprised about something, consider 2nd place Oshkosh had no AAs at all, and the only player mentioned from national championship winner Nebraska Wesleyan could do no better than to join Howell on the HM list. 🤔
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Offline Whit-MAN

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2018, 04:38:02 pm »
I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer.

No reason to be surprised especially when you consider that 3 of the other pre-season first teamers didnít make any AA team, not even HM! And thatís not the first time it has happened, nor will it be the last.

If you want to be surprised about something, consider 2nd place Oshkosh had no AAs at all, and the only player mentioned from national championship winner Nebraska Wesleyan could do no better than to join Howell on the HM list. 🤔

I'm surprised by all of this, actually. Personally, I think performing well against the best teams in the country should carry more weight than being a statistical outlier for a mediocre team... and watching NWU against the Blues, they appeared to have five or six deserving players!

I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer. He averaged just under 19 points per game in only 22 minutes, shooting .527-- he has to easily be one of (if not THE) most efficient scorers in the nation with those numbers, despite ostensibly being the focus of every opposing defense (having been a Pre-Season 1st Team AA). His career averages along those lines aren't far off-- 17.2 points on 51% shooting... which would be GREAT numbers for a post player, but are absurd for a guard who drives and shoots floaters. Last season, by comparison he averaged one more point per game, but had fewer assists in 25 minutes per game.

Obviously winning or a team's record doesn't play in the selections, but just for fun-- Whitman is 60-3 in the last two years, which is more than a little crazy. Howell's teams were 104-14 in his time at Whitman, which is the best winning % in all of D3 and close to the best in all of NCAA basketball, according to the Whitman website. I realize it's not a career award, but hard to believe that there are 12 better guards out there. I would argue whatever small 'dips' happened in Howell's numbers actually HELPED Whitman win this year, as you saw other guys (Hewitt, Duckett, Osborne) come into more of their own.

Starting with the fact that Howell was a 2nd-Team All-Region... he was already limited with just how high he was going to get slotted.

Also, for the record, there are not 10 players (possibly including Howell) in the country better than Austin Butler. He'll never get an award simply because it's (legitimately) too hard for voters to stay up and watch him, and because he's not a scorer so his numbers will never be sexy enough, but the guy dominates SO many games for WM.

Butler wasn't nominated to All-Region... starts there. Trust me, the D3hoops.com staff lamented about that fact.

I thought Howell probably should have been an All-Region 1st team selection for the same reasons as I mentioned earlier. Essentially identical numbers to the previous season, in fewer minutes, despite wearing the #1 target all season long.

Butler not being nominated is atrocious....did someone drop the ball there, or what?!

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2018, 05:07:15 pm »
Here's how the D3Hoops.com staff faired...8 out of 25.

   PRE-AA      PLAYER      TEAM      AA   
   1      Axelrod      OWU      1   
   1      Howell      Whitman      HM   
   1      McKinney      Hanover      x   
   1      Bonacum      Ramapo      x   
   1      Herink      River Falls      x   
   2      Francis      Wheaton      2   
   2      Orange      Augustana      x   
   2      Rupkus      Skidmore      x   
   2      Monroe      Cabrini      3   
   2      Sorenson      NCC      3   
   3      Anderson      Husson      x   
   3      Echevarria      Nichols      x   
   3      Scarlett      CMS      1   
   3      Cook      Neb Wes      x   
   3      Raridon      NCC      x   
   4      Ross      Springfield      2   
   4      Stokman      St John's      x   
   4      Wiley      Swarthmore      x   
   4      Gigax      Emory      x   
   4      MacDonald      SUNY Maritime      x   
   HM      Comenale      Babson      x   
   HM      Jones      Whitewater      x   
   HM      Ross      Wells      x   
   HM      Walters      Alb Mag      2   
   HM      Howard      Catholic      x   
   x      Roach      Whitworth      1   
   x      Sanders      Wash U      1   
   x      Olmscheid      Augsburg      1   
   x      Adams      Olivet      2   
   x      Bruns      ONU      2   
   x      Duax      Platteville      3   
   x      Myers      Aurora      3   
   x      Fails      Hanover      3   
   x      Daly      Middlebury      4   
   x      Ebel      Augustana      4   
   x      Douglas      Minn-Morris      4   
   x      Toney      NJCU      4   
   x      Roy      Wittenberg      4   
   x      Federici      F&M      HM   
   x      Garver      Neb Wes      HM   
   x      Patron      Plattsburg St      HM   
   x      Grow      Carleton      HM   
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: 2017-18 All American Predictions
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2018, 05:37:57 pm »
I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer.

No reason to be surprised especially when you consider that 3 of the other pre-season first teamers didnít make any AA team, not even HM! And thatís not the first time it has happened, nor will it be the last.

If you want to be surprised about something, consider 2nd place Oshkosh had no AAs at all, and the only player mentioned from national championship winner Nebraska Wesleyan could do no better than to join Howell on the HM list. 🤔

I'm surprised by all of this, actually. Personally, I think performing well against the best teams in the country should carry more weight than being a statistical outlier for a mediocre team... and watching NWU against the Blues, they appeared to have five or six deserving players!

I'm a little surprised Tim Howell only made the HM list, after being a pre-season 1st teamer. He averaged just under 19 points per game in only 22 minutes, shooting .527-- he has to easily be one of (if not THE) most efficient scorers in the nation with those numbers, despite ostensibly being the focus of every opposing defense (having been a Pre-Season 1st Team AA). His career averages along those lines aren't far off-- 17.2 points on 51% shooting... which would be GREAT numbers for a post player, but are absurd for a guard who drives and shoots floaters. Last season, by comparison he averaged one more point per game, but had fewer assists in 25 minutes per game.

Obviously winning or a team's record doesn't play in the selections, but just for fun-- Whitman is 60-3 in the last two years, which is more than a little crazy. Howell's teams were 104-14 in his time at Whitman, which is the best winning % in all of D3 and close to the best in all of NCAA basketball, according to the Whitman website. I realize it's not a career award, but hard to believe that there are 12 better guards out there. I would argue whatever small 'dips' happened in Howell's numbers actually HELPED Whitman win this year, as you saw other guys (Hewitt, Duckett, Osborne) come into more of their own.

Starting with the fact that Howell was a 2nd-Team All-Region... he was already limited with just how high he was going to get slotted.

Also, for the record, there are not 10 players (possibly including Howell) in the country better than Austin Butler. He'll never get an award simply because it's (legitimately) too hard for voters to stay up and watch him, and because he's not a scorer so his numbers will never be sexy enough, but the guy dominates SO many games for WM.

Butler wasn't nominated to All-Region... starts there. Trust me, the D3hoops.com staff lamented about that fact.

I thought Howell probably should have been an All-Region 1st team selection for the same reasons as I mentioned earlier. Essentially identical numbers to the previous season, in fewer minutes, despite wearing the #1 target all season long.

Butler not being nominated is atrocious....did someone drop the ball there, or what?!

Sometimes SIDs do so strategically to avoid splitting the vote.  Hewitt and Howell were nominated, putting a third Whitman player on there might've meant even lower All-Region standing for those guys.
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