Author Topic: 2018 Season - National Perspective  (Read 64365 times)

Offline Flying Weasel

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 02:15:37 pm »
First off,  I never made any claim as to the strength of Brandt's schedules.  I questioned how you can simultaneously ajudge McCarty's 2018 schedule to be "pretty solid" and Brandt to "usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference."  You said all you see in the 2003 to 2008 schedules is York and bunch of mediocrity.  Well, going off that standard, the 2018 schedule is Hopkins and a bunch of mediocrity (I wanted to exempt Cortland St., but I figured you wouldn't since they didn't and haven't managed a decent NCAA run). Besides 2006, put any of those other years side-by-side with the 2018 schedule and they compare favorably excepted maybe 2008.

I am to lazy to get the data but how bout we get a SOS for Messiah during these years. IIRC it was always in the .530-.545 range.  Last years was maybe .575 or .580. Also, during this time frame I see 1 solid outfit. York. That's it. None of the other teams made a solid NCAA run except Wheaton(IL). They made some decent runs in the NCAA's in somewhat weak regions some years. Once they hit the 2006 NCAA Final 4 they were completely outclassed. I see no top NJAC teams not even the top Centennial teams. What I do see is a ton of mediocrity. Richard Stockton by 2002 was a shell of what they were at the turn of the century. They played Stevens one year and Stevens did not even make the NCAA's. So you really need to look beyond this data that was presented without even giving us a year by year SOS for Messiah compared to 2017.

You can't be completely serious?!?!

● Richard Stockton was not nearly as good in 2003 as they were in 2001 (as you mention), but you say Messiah didn't play the top NJAC teams. Well, Stockton was the NJAC Champs in 2001, 2002, and 2004 and the regular season champ in 2003. If you dismiss Messiah playing Stockton in 2003, then do tell who they should have played at that time?  Rowan was already in decline as well. TCNJ was champ in 2005 but they had dropped off 'til Messiah played them in 2007 and 2008. Montclair State is the NJAC side that they missed out on under Brandt, but in the 2000's the Red Hawks weren't NJAC champs or runners-up, nor did they make the NCAA tournament until their breakout season of 2006 (20-1-1/9-0-0).
● And look again, Stevens made the NCAA's both years they played Messiah. It was 2002 they missed the tournament and settled for the ECAC championship, but in 2003 and 2005 they made the dance and finished ranked No. 12 and 13 in the NSCAA final polls those years.
● From the Centennial, not playing Johns Hopkins (due to the aversion to playing on astroturf back then) is what hurts. But they played 2003 and 2005 champs Muhlenberg in 2003 and 2004. They played McDaniel during their peak under John Plevyak when they were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the Centennial from 2003 to 2005. Swarthmore only starting posting winning seasons starting in 2004 and it wasn't until 2008, Brandt's last, that Swat finally won a conference playoff game (they were champs) and got into the NCAA tournament.
● And I'm not sure how you can criticize having Wheaton (Ill.) and Christopher Newport to help fill out your non-conference schedule.

Again, I'm making no claim that Messiah had killer non-conference schedules. In my opinion, they often were very solid, but not always. But I don't think any fair-minded person would say they were usually weak as you claim.  Ohh, I don't have any SOS numbers for those years--in fact some of those years are from when that Quality-of-Win index was still being used before being replaced by the SOS computation.  But I think the SOS numbers would be fine.

I like both Brandt and McCarty and both have had years where I have been disappointed with the schedule and years when I have been happy with the schedule. The adversion to playing on astroturf back in the Brandt years meant missing out on playing Hopkins during the regular season and that was disappointing. And playing Montclair State instead of Kean or TCNJ in Brandt's final years would have been nice. I'm not impressed by this year's schedule.  Solid, but disappointing to have dropped Rowan and Haverford and only adding Cortland.  We'll have to see if Montclair St. and Whitworth can bounce from down years, if Dickinson can improve a little and what direction E-town is heading. Maybe I'll feel differently a month into the season.  And who knows if Hopkins' great season was an aberration or a start of a run among the nation's top programs once again.

Finally, I'm not sure how the rabbit trail about Messiah's previous religious exemption from Sunday play is relevant (just like it's not clear why you felt you had to turn attention back on Brandt's scheduling when discussing the 2018 season and the schedules being released), but, for the record, are you or are you not "talking about the character of the man as a human being" when you accuse him of cheating?

Offline 1970s NESCAC Player

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 02:27:21 pm »
First off,  I never made any claim as to the strength of Brandt's schedules.  I questioned how you can simultaneously ajudge McCarty's 2018 schedule to be "pretty solid" and Brandt to "usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference."  You said all you see in the 2003 to 2008 schedules is York and bunch of mediocrity.  Well, going off that standard, the 2018 schedule is Hopkins and a bunch of mediocrity (I wanted to exempt Cortland St., but I figured you wouldn't since they didn't and haven't managed a decent NCAA run). Besides 2006, put any of those other years side-by-side with the 2018 schedule and they compare favorably excepted maybe 2008.

I am to lazy to get the data but how bout we get a SOS for Messiah during these years. IIRC it was always in the .530-.545 range.  Last years was maybe .575 or .580. Also, during this time frame I see 1 solid outfit. York. That's it. None of the other teams made a solid NCAA run except Wheaton(IL). They made some decent runs in the NCAA's in somewhat weak regions some years. Once they hit the 2006 NCAA Final 4 they were completely outclassed. I see no top NJAC teams not even the top Centennial teams. What I do see is a ton of mediocrity. Richard Stockton by 2002 was a shell of what they were at the turn of the century. They played Stevens one year and Stevens did not even make the NCAA's. So you really need to look beyond this data that was presented without even giving us a year by year SOS for Messiah compared to 2017.

You can't be completely serious?!?!

● Richard Stockton was not nearly as good in 2003 as they were in 2001 (as you mention), but you say Messiah didn't play the top NJAC teams. Well, Stockton was the NJAC Champs in 2001, 2002, and 2004 and the regular season champ in 2003. If you dismiss Messiah playing Stockton in 2003, then do tell who they should have played at that time?  Rowan was already in decline as well. TCNJ was champ in 2005 but they had dropped off 'til Messiah played them in 2007 and 2008. Montclair State is the NJAC side that they missed out on under Brandt, but in the 2000's the Red Hawks weren't NJAC champs or runners-up, nor did they make the NCAA tournament until their breakout season of 2006 (20-1-1/9-0-0).
● And look again, Stevens made the NCAA's both years they played Messiah. It was 2002 they missed the tournament and settled for the ECAC championship, but in 2003 and 2005 they made the dance and finished ranked No. 12 and 13 in the NSCAA final polls those years.
● From the Centennial, not playing Johns Hopkins (due to the aversion to playing on astroturf back then) is what hurts. But they played 2003 and 2005 champs Muhlenberg in 2003 and 2004. They played McDaniel during their peak under John Plevyak when they were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the Centennial from 2003 to 2005. Swarthmore only starting posting winning seasons starting in 2004 and it wasn't until 2008, Brandt's last, that Swat finally won a conference playoff game (they were champs) and got into the NCAA tournament.
● And I'm not sure how you can criticize having Wheaton (Ill.) and Christopher Newport to help fill out your non-conference schedule.

Again, I'm making no claim that Messiah had killer non-conference schedules. In my opinion, they often were very solid, but not always. But I don't think any fair-minded person would say they were usually weak as you claim.  Ohh, I don't have any SOS numbers for those years--in fact some of those years are from when that Quality-of-Win index was still being used before being replaced by the SOS computation.  But I think the SOS numbers would be fine.

I like both Brandt and McCarty and both have had years where I have been disappointed with the schedule and years when I have been happy with the schedule. The adversion to playing on astroturf back in the Brandt years meant missing out on playing Hopkins during the regular season and that was disappointing. And playing Montclair State instead of Kean or TCNJ in Brandt's final years would have been nice. I'm not impressed by this year's schedule.  Solid, but disappointing to have dropped Rowan and Haverford and only adding Cortland.  We'll have to see if Montclair St. and Whitworth can bounce from down years, if Dickinson can improve a little and what direction E-town is heading. Maybe I'll feel differently a month into the season.  And who knows if Hopkins' great season was an aberration or a start of a run among the nation's top programs once again.

Finally, I'm not sure how the rabbit trail about Messiah's previous religious exemption from Sunday play is relevant (just like it's not clear why you felt you had to turn attention back on Brandt's scheduling when discussing the 2018 season and the schedules being released), but, for the record, are you or are you not "talking about the character of the man as a human being" when you accuse him of cheating?

Should we just have a thread called Mr. Right v. Flying Weasel?

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 02:35:53 pm »
Everything is relevant but yes ok I am talking about the man's character or lack of integrity when it comes to the religious exemption issue. The fact is if the team CANNOT PLAY on Sunday due to religious obligations the surely the coach SHOULD NOT BE SCOUTING his next opponent the same day.

As far as scheduling I was comparing it to 2017 not 2018. We can agree to disagree but not having the other TOP team in that decade in that region which is probably a solid hour from you on your schedule is ridiculous. Hopkins was a nasty side and to not have them on his schedule was a shame and I am betting their former Coach would have played Messiah in a heartbeat and who knows maybe he would have agreed to play Messiah on a neutral grass field instead of at Hopkins.

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2018, 02:37:59 pm »
No need...I am done with the whole Brandt spewing. We can move forward with present day conversation.

Offline blooter442

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2018, 02:55:30 pm »
Curious to know why Hopkins wouldn't have played at Shoemaker if Messiah didn't want to play on Astroturf? Not trying to ask a leading question; genuinely curious.

I am certainly no expert on Christianity, but, if Brandt did indeed scout teams on days where his team was accommodated due to an exemption, that is pretty shady in my humble opinion. I might not call it "cheating," but I would say it's "unethical."

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2018, 02:56:03 pm »
Everything is relevant but yes ok I am talking about the man's character or lack of integrity when it comes to the religious exemption issue. The fact is if the team CANNOT PLAY on Sunday due to religious obligations the surely the coach SHOULD NOT BE SCOUTING his next opponent the same day.


I'm confused... Messiah has gotten rid of the religious restrictions for post-season play for a number of years. Isn't this well behind us now?
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2018, 02:57:03 pm »
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time
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Offline Buck O.

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 pm »
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.

And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.

Offline 4samuy

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2018, 10:28:28 pm »
Chicago's schedule: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule

It's loaded.  Trinity (Tx.), North Park, Loras, and Calvin in their non-conference schedule on top of the ever-deep and competitive UAA slate.

Non-conference schedule
9/1 (A) Trinity (Tx.)
9/3 (N) TBD (at Trinity (Tx.)
9/5 (A) Benedictine (Ill.)
9/8 (A) North Park
9/12 (H) Wheaton (Ill.)
9/15 (H) Loras
9/16 (H) Macalester
9/19 (H) Carroll (Wis.)
9/22 (A) Calvin
10/17 (H) Carthage

WOW!  Even with the four returning All Americans (Lopez, Koh, Adeyoson and Copotosto) they will need huge contributions from the rest of their very deep team to challenge that schedule.  On paper, Chicago will be really really good, and give huge credit to coach Babst and his staff for scheduling some of the best in the country.

Offline Falconer

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2018, 08:51:00 am »
I don't know how non-conference scheduling is done in D3 (or any other level). The comments about changes from one year to another lead me to ask what a reasonable expectation should be. Since Messiah's schedule is the one on view here for several years, I'll keep the Falcons for my specifics. Obviously anyone with knowledge of other team's scheduling for several years should chime in with their questions and answers.

First, the Falcons have been playing certain non-conference teams regularly (not necessarily annually, but quite often) for decades: York (which was arguably the best team in their region for several years), Gettysburg (which has many results vs Messiah) and Dickinson (still lacks a single result, but some years they are good enough to make the dance). The two geographically closest Centennial teams are in that group, and many years Gburg is awfully good, whether or not they make the dance. Surely travel costs are part of that picture, but it's not as though the Falcons were playing the same bad teams with regularity. They weren't.

So, what about the others? Messiah played Rowan home-and-home a few times, but not annually. Ditto for Montclair. Hopkins wasn't on the schedule until quite recently, partly (no doubt) b/c of Messiah's aversion to certain artificial surfaces. Indeed, I can tell you with some confidence that Brandt regarded this game as one of his nightmares: https://www.messiah.edu/gomessiah/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2003/STEVMESS.HTM
That game was on a rug, and he felt his team was greatly disadvantaged by that particular place. He's one of the most competitive people I could name, in any line of work, and if he can get an advantage or avoid a disadvantage by a particular tactical move, he makes that move. He always felt that the Falcons actually played better on the road (than at home) in tournament games, partly b/c he could control more of the situation by having his team with him for 72 hours.

I don't sense that McCarty has quite the same aversion to various artificial surfaces. Obviously he's also a competitive person, but I don't think he's quite as intense as Brandt. It remains true, however, that the Falcons don't usually play as well on smaller or non-grass fields. When you're always in the gunsight--and, let's be honest, the Falcons have to be first on that list of targets, and have been for at least 15 years--you don't want to schedule too many games against quality teams at places where you are less likely to play your best. SOS counts, but so do W/L records vs top teams. Better to play them later, in the tournament (where you might get them at home or on a similar field), than at a disadvantageous venue in the regular season.
At least if I'm the Falcon coach, that's my thinking. I don't want to lose an NCAA bid, simply b/c my team didn't win the AQ and they had 3 road losses that might have turned out differently on regulation grass fields (b/c of team's personnel and style of play).

Put yourself in the same situation, and you might agree--or, at least, understand it and see the rationality.

As for changes from year to year, I assume part of the picture involves coaches wanting to play against more than just a few specific teams/coaches over a decade. If the coach at Smart College is your friend, maybe you want to agree to a home-and-home once in a while, and to do that you have to drop a home-and-home with another guy's team for a few years. Who knows? I don't. That's what I'm asking about. Aren't things done this way? Aren't there always personal factors like this, in addition to ensuring that you play some really tough teams out of conference?






Offline NESCAC43

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2018, 08:56:00 am »
Chicago's schedule: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule

It's loaded.  Trinity (Tx.), North Park, Loras, and Calvin in their non-conference schedule on top of the ever-deep and competitive UAA slate.

Non-conference schedule
9/1 (A) Trinity (Tx.)
9/3 (N) TBD (at Trinity (Tx.)
9/5 (A) Benedictine (Ill.)
9/8 (A) North Park
9/12 (H) Wheaton (Ill.)
9/15 (H) Loras
9/16 (H) Macalester
9/19 (H) Carroll (Wis.)
9/22 (A) Calvin
10/17 (H) Carthage

WOW!  Even with the four returning All Americans (Lopez, Koh, Adeyoson and Copotosto) they will need huge contributions from the rest of their very deep team to challenge that schedule.  On paper, Chicago will be really really good, and give huge credit to coach Babst and his staff for scheduling some of the best in the country.

Agreed. Will be good to see Chicago, who is one of the best, take on some of the best on a weekly basis. Plus the UAA schedule is a challenge in itself. Surely this will top Case Western's SOS last year which we all thought was brutal.

Offline Shooter McGavin

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2018, 10:23:41 am »
Lycoming 2018 Schedule
8-31 @Grove City
9-1 @Geneva
9-5 @Susquehanna
9-7 @CMU*
9-12 @Medaille
9-15 Scranton*
9-16 Penn College
9-19 Eastern*
9-22 CNU*
9-26 @Misericordia
9-29 @Albright
10-3 Moravian
10-6 Stevenson
10-9 Alvernia
10-13 @Widener
10-17 @Messiah*
10-20 Arcadia
10-23 LVC
10-27 @Hood

Dropped: RUC, Rowan, Dickinson, Washington, FSU, CWRU, 
Added: Grove City, Geneva, CMU, Penn College, Eastern, CNU, Moravian

(Added * next to significant games in my opinion)

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 pm »
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.


I don't agree. Refs basically keep time for games at lower levels and higher levels. The only level which consistently has a "game clock" is the NCAA level (even some high school levels in the states have the refs control the clock). This is second nature to the sport and we have to stop Americanizing every damn thing and think it is better.

And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

When you can see the clock, you know exactly how to affect the clock. When you don't know the exact amount of time and you know it won't end just because you stand in the corner... it would end some of that stuff. Sure, we have substitutions affecting things even in the pro and international level (though, to a lesser degree), but it isn't like those rules will disappear either.

I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

What you describe here is exactly why I have hated the clock for most of my career playing even in college. There is also the always present controversy of whether a clock was stopped in the right amount of time and such. I rather the game come to an end like many sports including rugby and somewhat football - that don't end just because the clock strikes zero.

But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.

That I don't agree with. If the NCAA rules were so much better, then why wouldn't be adopted across the world. They aren't. The NCAA rules are in one place... the NCAA. It has bastardized the game out of the sake of being "American." We have to stop trying to always make games identical in nature.

Refs wear multiple watches at lower levels, higher levels, and all levels but the NCAA in which to run their own clock. This rule won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, it just won't mean when the clock strikes "zero" - or rather "45:00" and "90:00" that it suddenly stops the game. Just it is in every stadium around the world big or small.
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Offline Flying Weasel

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2018, 03:58:35 pm »
Looks like USMMA (aka Merchant Marine, aka Kings Point) men's soccer will be back for the 2018 season after the program was suspended prior to the 2017 season due to the on-going federal investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct, bullying, coercion and retaliation by upperclassmen on the men's soccer team on bus trips during the 2016 season.  Even though the investiagtion has not been concluded, the Academy reinstated the program for the spring non-traditional season and has notified the Skyline Conference of their intent to declare with the NCAA to sponsor menís soccer this fall season and resume a full conference schedule. As far as I can tell, there has been no NCAA involvement in the investigation and self-imposed suspension of the program.  And apparently nothing stands in the way of the team being recognized by the NCAA as long as the Academy includes the soccer program on their annual athletic sponsorship paperwork to the NCAA.

USMMA Alumni release: https://www.usmmaaf.com/s/1175/hybrid/social.aspx?sid=1175&gid=1&pgid=2004&cid=3770&ecid=3770&crid=0
Newsday article: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/merchant-marine-academy-soccer-sexual-misconduct-1.17135984
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 04:02:10 pm by Flying Weasel »

Offline Buck O.

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Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2018, 02:09:51 pm »
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.


I don't agree. Refs basically keep time for games at lower levels and higher levels. The only level which consistently has a "game clock" is the NCAA level (even some high school levels in the states have the refs control the clock). This is second nature to the sport and we have to stop Americanizing every damn thing and think it is better.

What you won't find in my original comments is any suggestion that the NCAA's proposal is better simply because it's American.  That would be a ridiculous assertion.  I would be perfectly fine with modifying some of the other rules (e.g., stuffing all of the games into the fall or the substitution rules) that are mandated by the NCAA.  But I think it's equally ridiculous to assert, as you did below, that the mere fact that the NCAA's rules haven't been adopted worldwide is proof that they're not superior. 

As I noted, my personal experience is that referees have a lot of trouble timing games accurately.  I don't know why that is.  It doesn't seem that hard.  But just to use the most recent examples available to me:  In a game that my son played last weekend, the referee stopped the first half about a minute and a half early.  In a game he played the weekend before that, the referee failed to award a single second of stoppage time despite the fact that there had been an injury earlier in the half and a player sent off which together should have led to at least two added minutes.  I could go on and on; my personal experience is that it is not the slightest bit unusual for a referee to mistime matches. 

Moreover, the evidence supporting my argument isn't limited to my personal experience, which of course might not be representative.  The decision that the referees need to make is how much stoppage time to add.  But, as this piece from a few years ago states, "In European club football, Decision Technology has found ó using data from Opta, a Prozone competitor ó virtually no correlation between the amount of time the ball is out of play in each half and the time added on at the end."

By displaying the amount of time left in the game, the NCAA system makes it very clear which stoppages lead to the extension of the time needed to complete the half, and which do not.  I favor clarity.  In contrast, if the referee times the match, it opens the door not to just to random errors, but to bias that may favor one team over another.  For example, referees tend to award more stoppage time to the home team. One can easily envision other motives that might apply in some cases.  I'm not very concerned about NCAA referees adding stoppage time because they're on the take, but if you've got a ref who's annoyed at a coach who's been on his case all day long, I'd rather not have a system that permits him to get his revenge through a unilateral and unreviewable decision to extend the game.  That's just a bad set of incentives.


And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

When you can see the clock, you know exactly how to affect the clock. When you don't know the exact amount of time and you know it won't end just because you stand in the corner... it would end some of that stuff. Sure, we have substitutions affecting things even in the pro and international level (though, to a lesser degree), but it isn't like those rules will disappear either.


I don't see any reason why it would end "some of that stuff."  If I can kill 20 seconds by standing in the corner or delaying a goal kick or whatnot, what does it matter if I don't know whether there are 20 seconds or 45 seconds left in the game?  Either way, it's 20 seconds in which the opponent can't score.


I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

What you describe here is exactly why I have hated the clock for most of my career playing even in college. There is also the always present controversy of whether a clock was stopped in the right amount of time and such. I rather the game come to an end like many sports including rugby and somewhat football - that don't end just because the clock strikes zero.

So, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.

That I don't agree with. If the NCAA rules were so much better, then why wouldn't be adopted across the world. They aren't. The NCAA rules are in one place... the NCAA. It has bastardized the game out of the sake of being "American." We have to stop trying to always make games identical in nature.

Refs wear multiple watches at lower levels, higher levels, and all levels but the NCAA in which to run their own clock. This rule won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, it just won't mean when the clock strikes "zero" - or rather "45:00" and "90:00" that it suddenly stops the game. Just it is in every stadium around the world big or small.

It won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, but it would needlessly introduce opacity and unaccountability because that clock won't indicate how much time is left.  While the NCAA-mandated rules differences are often inferior to the normal FIFA procedures, they aren't always worse, and I think this is one of the cases where the NCAA actually has it (mostly) right, although I would make the one change I mention above.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 02:12:25 pm by Buck O. »