Author Topic: 2018 Season - National Perspective  (Read 10281 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 20663
  • Karma: +2343/-757
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2018, 05:05:15 pm »
So, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

A better analogy, since play isn't continuous in football, might be the hockey rule that play is not stopped when an active-play penalty is committed by the defending team; play continues for as long as the attacking team still has the puck or until it scores a goal. It isn't until the defending team takes possession of the puck, or the puck goes out of play, that the clock stops and the penalty is enforced.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Buck O.

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2018, 06:09:03 pm »
So, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

A better analogy, since play isn't continuous in football, might be the hockey rule that play is not stopped when an active-play penalty is committed by the defending team; play continues for as long as the attacking team still has the puck or until it scores a goal. It isn't until the defending team takes possession of the puck, or the puck goes out of play, that the clock stops and the penalty is enforced.

Yes, that's a better analogy.  Thanks.

Offline Hopkins92

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2018, 01:40:52 pm »
I'd be OK if there was someone keeping the time and stopping the clock on every whistle. If you're going to use something that has such a huge impact on the game, it shouldn't just be for injuries or goals that they stop the time. You wanna hammerboot the ball out of bounds every time it comes near you in the final 2 minutes? Fine. You're going to need to do that about 30 times and pray. As it is, you can bang the ball out of bounds and if they ballboy/girl isn't on point (and we've all seen how home team ball grabbers can get rubber legs down the stretch) and burn through 20-30 seconds of clock time at the end.

It's a pretty ridiculous way to end a soccer game, given how time is kept the rest of the game. Not getting into FIFA vs NCAA, I'm talking about being consistent with stopping the clock the entire game.

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 3368
  • Karma: +165/-126
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2018, 01:54:43 pm »
The whole point of the referee throwing his 2 arms into the air and crossing them is to stop the clock. I like the system the way it is with the official clock on the scoreboard..If the ref wants to stop the clock for time wasting than he has every right to do so. Just have a Athletic Admin from the Home School overseeing the whole operation so there is no issues with time operators with slow fingers. Honestly, I have never really seen any egregious issues with college games that I have seen with time problems.

I think the BIGGER ISSUE than no one has mentioned is the possibility of allowing Home Teams to play artificial noisemakers while the ball is in play. This one I just do not understand. I am not sure to what they are referencing because if they are talking about artificial crowd noise that would be a total disaster. If they are talking about bands or soccer related crap from the fans that is fine. If it is actually artificial crowd noise that is a MASSIVE problem. Very distracting and Home teams with dodgy coaches could use it to their advantage. This needs to be explained more. Not even sure what the need for this bulletpoint is unless schools like Maryland and UNC who draw thousands of fans need it otherwise it will be a complete annoyance and distraction for players, coaches and fans of BOTH teams.

Offline Hopkins92

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2018, 02:20:52 pm »
Quote
Allowing bands, musical instruments and artificial noisemakers while the ball is in play.

I don't see how this could be interpreted as allowing a PA or speakers to be used to pump artificial crowd noise into the game atmosphere. I take "artificial noisemaker" to be cowbells or other items that just, you know, make noise.

And, not to pick nits, but how time is kept in the NCAA is a pretty big deal. For a lot of people, the deviation from FIFA on this rule is an abomination. I don't feel that strongly about it, but it's not a minor issue to a lot of people.

I think some of you are making decent points about it NOT being a big deal, but, frankly, the vast majority of soccer fans tune into a college game and shake their heads. To flip the analogies used here, think of a hockey game where the ref kept the time on the ice, and you only had a vague notion of how long the game would stretch past each 20 minute period. People would lose their minds, even if you made a bunch of cogent arguments about the benefits of that system. (I don't have the energy to cook them up, and it's not the point.)

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 3368
  • Karma: +165/-126
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2018, 02:34:05 pm »
Umm ok but artificial noisemakers as u define them like "cowbells" or whatever have always been allowed..When has that ever been a problem? Why the need to include this then? I take artificial noisemakers as a pretty broad definition.

People like yourself MAKE the time issue a big deal..For all the people that think the deviation from FIFA to be an abomination do they have specific examples as to how this deviation has caused widespread problems for NCAA Soccer? Why the need to change to giving the ref full control of the time without ANY fans or coaches or players to know how much time is left in the match? For full transparency I think the NCAA actually has this right. If you want to start the clock to time up to 90 instead of down then I would be fine with that but I am not fine with giving refs even more power with the clock. No need. They have enough problems as it is. There are many fine College refs but just as many useless refs that are either to old or to fat to be reffing. They have made many contacts over the years and are not willing to give up this secondary income and get a ton of the plush assignments. These bums should have retired long ago and they know who they are. I really do not want to be giving some of these guys the power to determine the time at the end of matches.

Offline Hopkins92

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 pm »
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

With that said, I do see the possible loophole being created here, and it's a valid point. I guess some lawyer could come in and defend jet engine-level noise being blasted at the opposing team during warm-ups as being permissible. But, wow, that would be a pretty significant stretch, no?

=-=-=-=-=

You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

(As a final aside, you took a borderline personal approach to responding to a pretty innocuous comment. You might want to chill with putting "you people" into a response as it's unnecessarily confrontational, particularly when I've hedged twice in that post by saying I don't feel that strongly AND that I thought good points were being made on the other side of the argument.)

Offline d4_Pace

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2018, 04:20:15 pm »
I think the time aspect is the one NCAA rule I preferred over the more FIFA like rules used in academy games. I remember vividly having to defend corner kicks with 10-15 seconds left, and knowing okay one more stop is all we need.  Those were some of the more heart stopping moments and something you don't get quite so tangibly with a subjective stoppage time.  But in my mind its not a huge issue either way and what really should be addressed is the substitution rules which are ridiculous and favor the direct style the college soccer is known for. 

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2018, 04:26:05 pm »
You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

And here lies the rub... only in the US is soccer a countdown sport.

The official in the center of the field is the official time keeper for all levels of soccer all around the world except, primarily, in the NCAA (high school in the US, it varies).

As for a stoppage on every whistle, soccer isn't lacrosse (men's not women's) or basketball. Even football doesn't stop the clock on every whistle or out of bounds play (ironically, countdown sport, btw).

Also another note: every sport that does have a clock counting down... the officials are still responsible for that clock.

But back to my point... soccer does not have the scoreboard clock as "official" except in the NCAA. So, why should the NCAA be different for starters and why should FIFA follow the NCAA "ideas" when they are the only ones?

The clock in the game as soccer has always been a guide to how much time has been played - much like in rugby and other sports - not an absolute stoppage. I am not a fan that the game of soccer, which ebbs and flows and has a certain cadence to it ... has all of that dictated by a clock counting down. Decisions are absolutely made by players and coaches to impact that clock. I regret to this day I didn't run up to a direct kick that was to be taken a second time because the official wasn't allowing it to be taken from the same spot again (it was 10-15 yards more towards the center of the field). I wanted to stop the clock and get his attention. It would have earned me a yellow, but I would have gotten his attention AND stopped the clock. I was the keeper, it was in college.

I have seen players get carded for actions like that just to stop the clock (yes, and waste the clock; those are more common). If the clock on the scoreboard doesn't have as much impact on the game and you know the official is keeping the time... you may be less likely to do things specifically to impact something you can actually see being changed or affected.

But again... why is the NCAA's clock rule the one that is so much better than any level around the world? This isn't a US dictated sport, but many act like because we do it in the US, it is the right way of doing it.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2018, 04:28:52 pm »
Per substitutions... I know I've heard the argument for less subs allowed...

One thing I will always say to that: it won't fly in the NCAA for one big reason (especially at DIII) ... it would by default limit the size of rosters (players not interested if they have no chance of playing in games) and with DIII and even DII dictated on enrollment and retention... I just don't see a change to the number of subs allowed in a game.

(Understand, I do like the idea on paper, I just understand how it is seen from a college's point of view - like limiting football and lacrosse roster sizes.)

The rules about automatically stopping the clock (currently) for subs by the leading team in the final five minutes I think are smart. When I played, you couldn't re-enter the game in the second half (only the first half). I don't know why they changed that rule, but that's how some of the end-of-game substitution shenanigans really started.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline d4_Pace

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2018, 04:34:30 pm »
I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie. 

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 8373
  • Karma: +605/-344
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2018, 04:48:14 pm »
I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie.

And to be honest... the point you hit on is why a) the US game isn't being helped by the NCAA or getting better itself, b ) good soccer players are avoiding the NCAA altogether, which is hurting the NCAA game, and c) why the NCAA game is becoming more and more irrelevant.

The NCAA game needs to go back towards how it is played prior to college and after college... not be something completely opposite of itself.

I am fine if games just end in ties during the regular season. So be it. That's the game. It also puts pressure on a team to find a way to win at the end instead of just holding on for OT (you know, after getting a rest).
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 20663
  • Karma: +2343/-757
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2018, 07:26:46 pm »
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

My reading is that the NCAA has defined artificial noisemakers the same for soccer as they are for every other sport. You can't switch on a boom box, blow vuvuzuelas, bang drums, etc., during live action in other sports in D3. Just this past fall at NPU we had an incident in which the father of a football player (from the visiting team, not that it made any difference) was blowing an air horn in the stands every time that his son's team did something good. With the blessing and encouragement of North Park's SID, I knocked on the door of the officiating crew's dressing room at halftime and informed the referee of the problem, and as soon as the officials retook the field at the end of haltime he activated his field mic and announced that artificial noisemakers were illegal by NCAA rules and that further use of the air horn would result in the user being ejected from the stadium. The dad promptly put the air horn in his coat pocket, and we never heard it again.

You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

I've never thought of the user-error slippages as being a problem, because the center refs in the games I've worked or attended have never been shy about telling the scoreboard operator to put x number of seconds back on the clock. In fact, it seems to me that a lot of Dave's objections are covered by this. The center ref really does control the clock in NCAA soccer, because: a) he has the right to modify the time displayed on the scoreboard at will; and b) it's a right that is frequently exercised.

But again... why is the NCAA's clock rule the one that is so much better than any level around the world? This isn't a US dictated sport, but many act like because we do it in the US, it is the right way of doing it.

It's a U.S.-dictated sport in the U.S., though, and that's the whole point.

I'm not a knee-jerk supporter of American exceptionalism, but, at the same time, I don't subscribe to the "if everybody else is doing it differently, then they must be right and we must be wrong" school of thought. If the NCAA wants to shape the rules of the game differently than the rest of the world, then I need a better reason to oppose that than the idea that the English, the Swedes, the Nigerians, the Panamanians, and the Iranians have more trustworthy opinions than do Americans. This is especially true because, at least in D3, the NCAA (ostensibly) represents the interests of a specific stakeholder, the student-athlete. You illustrated this perfectly in talking about the substitution rule with regard to how it suits the mission statement of D3 to permit unlimited substitutions in soccer.

Again, this is not jingoism on my part. The Japanese allow ties in baseball, unlike everybody else in the world who plays that sport. Speaking as a baseball fan, this doesn't bother me in the least; in fact, I applaud it. I see it as being a specific expression of Japanese culture and how it views the balance between effort and achievement, or between competition and group solidarity. In the immortal words of Sly and the Family Stone, different strokes for different folks.

I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie. 

And I'm fine with that. Americans don't like ties; they prefer decisive outcomes in their sports, and they've have demonstrated this in other sports prone to ties (football and hockey) by periodically modifying the rules to make ties less likely, just as baseball and basketball specifically forbade ties many generations ago. This is part of American sporting culture, and I don't really see a reason why Americans should be fed ties in soccer like they're spoonfuls of castor oil. It certainly doesn't help the sport's attempts to gain popularity in this country. As it is, ties are still far more frequent in soccer than they are in any other college sport in America, so it's not as though the NCAA has been overwhelmingly successful in getting rid of them via the two-overtime system.

And to be honest... the point you hit on is why a) the US game isn't being helped by the NCAA or getting better itself, b ) good soccer players are avoiding the NCAA altogether, which is hurting the NCAA game, and c) why the NCAA game is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Those are D1's problems, not D3's. If D1 soccer is that interested in becoming a feeder system for the pros, then let the D1 folks legislate their own division to enhance that vision to their heart's content.

The NCAA game needs to go back towards how it is played prior to college and after college... not be something completely opposite of itself.

I'm not crazy about making rules just for the sake of making rules. Other sports also have rules that differ from one level to another; there's nothing unique about soccer in that regard. If there's a valid reason why the NCAA's non-conformity is hampering its players by making high-school to college or college to pro transitions difficult, then, by all means, make rules to correct that if necessary. But if not, then I think that the old aphorism that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies.

I am fine if games just end in ties during the regular season. So be it. That's the game. It also puts pressure on a team to find a way to win at the end instead of just holding on for OT (you know, after getting a rest).

I don't see how it's any different whether a team plays for a tie or a win at the end of regulation than it would in overtime. Time is an arbitrary delineator of game length that, in and of itself, doesn't really affect strategy per se. A cutoff point is a cutoff point, whether you're talking about ninety minutes or ten minutes (or 110 minutes, if the play-to-tie strategy is adopted while regulation is still going on).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 07:29:02 pm by Gregory Sager »
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline D3soccerwatcher

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 419
  • Karma: +24/-62
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2018, 09:12:29 pm »
Given all the discussion about Coach Brandt on these boards, I thought many of you would like to read this article recently posted on Hope College's website.  It seems very comprehensive and might set straight some of the conjecture on numerous posts.

http://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180405jza14h

Offline jknezek

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4606
  • Karma: +762/-109
    • View Profile
Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2018, 09:52:41 pm »
Intereating. It seems like he says he wanted out of Pittsburgh. That's not the story in Pittsburgh and it certainly skips over the whole license issue, which was very real.  We all spin things our own way. I think this is a very good example of that.