Author Topic: D1 vs D3 comparison  (Read 6196 times)

Offline blooter442

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2018, 09:18:19 am »
Then there is the unusual situation when a player spends 2 years at D3(Carthage), before getting signed by English Championship side QPR, where he is practicing alongside US International Geoff Cameron.

Giles Phillips:   https://www.qpr.co.uk/squads/first-team

Ah! He just missed working with 'Arry (Redknapp)!

His height is listed as "unknown cm." Relating back to these boards, I remember someone mentioning that teams sometimes fudge heights on their rosters to give players "an extra inch or two" which I didn't believe at first but came to observe seems to be the case. I'm 5'11", not "tall" by any stretch, but I recently stood next to a player who is listed as 6'1" and went "he definitely doesn't look 6'1", he's probably 5'11" or maaaaaaybe 6'." Then another player who was listed as 6'3" came over and I was like "definitely not 6'3", more likely 6'1"." Both players were standing on the same surface as I and wearing similar footwear, so it wasn't as if we were on different elevation levels. I do not profess to be a height expert, but I just found that entertaining.
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Offline PaulNewman

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2018, 10:56:20 am »
I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

Syracuse is an ACC team. Not a patriot league team. They just beat #1 Wake Forest a week ago. So I don't know what level of school you are talking about. West was mentioned and I just pointed out that he indeed was recruited to an ACC school. It seems you are talking about only the top handful of players highly recruited by dozens of top tier D1 schools. Yes sure in that case probably would not choose d3. Although wasn't Jack Thompson from a few years back the HS player of the year and offered at Akron but chose Messiah. Not positive about that.

Jack was not Gatorade poy so maybe I heard wrong or some other national award. https://playeroftheyear.gatorade.com/winner/national

But I understand he was recruited by Akron.. A program with 2.recent national championships.

Fair enough.  I do know that Syracuse is in the ACC and was never in the Patriot League.  I would be curious what West's #2 and other choices were IF he had not gone to Messiah.  I would guess Messiah is one of the few (or only) D3s to consistently have multiple players choosing Messiah over good to very good D1s.  And of course Messiah, as far as D3 is concerned, is sort of like a category in itself.  I thought about Thompson, as I was just glowing about him a week or two ago.  Akron would make a lot of sense, from both a talent and location perspective.  I would be curious how much the Messiah choice is very specifically tied to the mission of Messiah, similar to how I assume Calvin as an institution (regardless of D3 vs D1) was the reason both stellar Vegter brothers chose Calvin.  In other words, if there was a Messiah-like school with a decent to very good D1 program might not some of the Messiah standouts have gone there?

Offline Dubuquer

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2018, 11:56:24 am »
I'll just add an anecdote from my personal experience.  Twenty years ago when I was playing in high school I played with and against some players who got scholarships to play at low- to mid-level D1 schools. They were good, all-state, all-conference players but weren't necessarily much, if any, better than my teammates who went on to play at better D3 schools.  I had the privilege of man-marking one player who was destined for a low level D1 in a state tournament game and he proved very manageable.  Now in the state semifinal we went up against a team that had a senior who was going to be playing at UNC or NC State, I believe.  He played at a different level.  Yes, he was skilled, but he was also just so much bigger and faster and stronger than the rest of us.  He ended up with a hat trick as we simply couldn't stop him.  My feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

Offline blooter442

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2018, 12:06:13 pm »
My feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

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Offline EB2319

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2018, 12:16:07 pm »
Quote
Relating back to these boards, I remember someone mentioning that teams sometimes fudge heights on their rosters to give players "an extra inch or two" which I didn't believe at first but came to observe seems to be the case

Yes, this is true.  I recently found my college programs, and the "official athletic department" program listed me at 5-11, 155 while the gameday program published for each home game had me listed as 5-10 and either 160 or 180 - depending on the week. Go figure.


Quote
My feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

Yes, this mirrors what I said earlier which was based on my experience playing D1 and D3.  The D1 teams are filled with kids who are bigger, stronger, quicker and faster.  Some of those kids exist at D3 but they won't fill a complete roster.

Offline PaulNewman

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2018, 12:36:11 pm »
rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Offline Buck O.

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2018, 12:54:41 pm »
I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?
The Massey ratings actually include ratings for all teams across all divisions, so we can use them to get Ken Massey's answer to your questions.

At the top end of D3:

Massey has Chicago rated #1 in D3 and #30 overall, so they fit between SIUE (#26 in D1/#29 overall) and Pacific (#27 in D1/#32 overall).

He has Conn College rated #2 in D3 and #62 overall, so they fit between Wisconsin (#46 in D1/#61 overall) and West Va. (#47 in D1/#63 overall).

Tufts is rated #3 in D3 and #82 overall, so they fit between St. Louis (#59 in D1/#80 overall) and Old Dominion (#60 in D1/#83 overall).

The second question is a little trickier because Massey thinks that Claremont, Ithaca and Luther are all well below #25 in D3.

He ranks Lycoming #25 in D3 and #321 overall, which fits between American (#166 in D1/#309 overall) and Gardner-Webb (#167 in D1/#325 overall)

And, just to choose one of your candidates, he ranks Claremont #67 in D3 and #468 overall, which fits between Detroit (#186 in D1/#443 overall) and Wofford (#187 in D1/#470 overall)

Finally, the bottom of D1.  Massey rates VMI as #206 in D1 and #935 overall.  They would fit between Geneva (#230 in D3/#930 overall) and Hardin-Simmons (#231 in D3/#936), so, pretty low.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2018, 01:02:43 pm »
I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?
The Massey ratings actually include ratings for all teams across all divisions, so we can use them to get Ken Massey's answer to your questions.

At the top end of D3:

Massey has Chicago rated #1 in D3 and #30 overall, so they fit between SIUE (#26 in D1/#29 overall) and Pacific (#27 in D1/#32 overall).

He has Conn College rated #2 in D3 and #62 overall, so they fit between Wisconsin (#46 in D1/#61 overall) and West Va. (#47 in D1/#63 overall).

Tufts is rated #3 in D3 and #82 overall, so they fit between St. Louis (#59 in D1/#80 overall) and Old Dominion (#60 in D1/#83 overall).

The second question is a little trickier because Massey thinks that Claremont, Ithaca and Luther are all well below #25 in D3.

He ranks Lycoming #25 in D3 and #321 overall, which fits between American (#166 in D1/#309 overall) and Gardner-Webb (#167 in D1/#325 overall)

And, just to choose one of your candidates, he ranks Claremont #67 in D3 and #468 overall, which fits between Detroit (#186 in D1/#443 overall) and Wofford (#187 in D1/#470 overall)

Finally, the bottom of D1.  Massey rates VMI as #206 in D1 and #935 overall.  They would fit between Geneva (#230 in D3/#930 overall) and Hardin-Simmons (#231 in D3/#936), so, pretty low.

The only problem being they don't necessarily have the same data to use those rankings. Most D1s (if not all) are playing against mainly D1s. Same with D3s. So while he has rankings, they don't cross pollenate enough to understand how they compare against one another. I know he makes adjustments to try and make it happen, but it just doesn't have enough to be accurate in a way to give that comparison any credence.

I'll use another example. D1 has the RPI and it is relatively good in understanding strengths of schedules and such because D1 has a lot of cross-country play amongst most teams.

There technically is an RPI in DIII as well, but it can't be used as a fair representation because DIII schools don't play across the country nearly as much as would be needed. So we can't tell if the RPI is giving a good representation due to the lack of data.

I know what Massey is doing, but I don't think he can escape the fact there isn't enough games between D1 and D3 schools (that even count for that matter) to be able to actually do that kind of overall ranking.

It certainly gives an interesting point of view, but I am not sure it is that accurate or reliable.
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Offline rudy

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2018, 03:53:20 pm »
rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Paul glad you researched it a little 😊.  I haven't watched any video of them. Have watched some Maryland games cause my sons played HS with a player on their roster. He has received inconsistent playing time...bad knee injury soph year so he red shirted. Maryland struggling a bit this year but Im pretty confident it would not be a close game if they played a Chicago, Messiah, Tufts, Calvin. As others have said more high level athleticism, strength, speed, skill all over the field rather than just a few players or less at that level on an elite D3. I think these same d3 teams could compete with Ivy and Patriot league teams.

Offline Hopkins92

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2018, 04:01:07 pm »
rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Paul glad you researched it a little 😊.  I haven't watched any video of them. Have watched some Maryland games cause my sons played HS with a player on their roster. He has received inconsistent playing time...bad knee injury soph year so he red shirted. Maryland struggling a bit this year but Im pretty confident it would not be a close game if they played a Chicago, Messiah, Tufts, Calvin. As others have said more high level athleticism, strength, speed, skill all over the field rather than just a few players or less at that level on an elite D3. I think these same d3 teams could compete with Ivy and Patriot league teams.

Now we're really on a tangent, but because I have a freshmen at Denver who is working for the SID, I've been following their soccer team this fall. They just got THUMPED at Virginia for their first loss of the season. They travel to Maryland next week, and I'm gonna catch the game.

DU has a Brazilian kid that has already scored something 21 goals.

/tangent

Anyways, I'm just going to fully agree with you point about the overall talent on a D3 squad. There might be 2 or 3 players that MIGHT be good enough to play on a D1 squad. The rest of the roster... And that depth is what would make for a huge problem, on top of the skill/athleticism/etc.

Offline franklyspeaking

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 04:10:05 pm »
D1 rosters are littered with players that dont play and are D3 players taking space on a D1 team, used for practice, and tuition.  Just wanted to show the other side of the story.

Offline truenorth

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2018, 04:35:04 pm »
To some of the recent points...

a) I simply don't buy Massey's rankings that suggest Chicago would be close to a top 30 D1 program.  Sounds like Chicago has a couple of attacking players who are very impressive in a D3 game.  But my guess is they would fade into the woodwork of a competitive top 30 D1 game...

b) In addition to differences in the level of athleticism, talent and technical skill between D1 and D3 players, there is also the aforementioned matter of depth.  My younger son's 2010 Bowdoin team who advanced to the D3 final four were essentially 10 players deep.  Their starting 11 were generally big, fast and very athletic for a D3 side and they could probably have competed with a lower to mid-level Ivy team for 45 minutes...but they would have been eaten alive the moment they had to begin subbing anyone from that starting 11...

Offline Ommadawn

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2018, 05:05:43 pm »
b) In addition to differences in the level of athleticism, talent and technical skill between D1 and D3 players, there is also the aforementioned matter of depth.  My younger son's 2010 Bowdoin team who advanced to the D3 final four were essentially 10 players deep.  Their starting 11 were generally big, fast and very athletic for a D3 side and they could probably have competed with a lower to mid-level Ivy team for 45 minutes...but they would have been eaten alive the moment they had to begin subbing anyone from that starting 11...

One of the things that I find interesting about the D1 game is how little subbing goes on at the highest levels (e.g., ACC).  Some teams go wire-to-wire with 12 or 13 players in any given game.

Offline Falconer

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2018, 05:08:48 pm »
Except for the recent season in which Messah didn’t qualify for the tourney, they have usually held their own in full scrimmages with opponents such as Delaware, D2 Millersville, d2 champion Dowling, Princeton, Penn, Bucknell, and Columbia. I hope that list is fully accurate—I haven’t done the research to verify it.

A few years ago, a member of the coaching staff told me that several players on the roster chose Messiah over a d1 program of one sort or another. My sense was he meant a majority of the starters and one or two others.

D1 transfers to Messiah are very few in my memory. Nor do I recall any in the other direction. I welcome better information.

Falcons who’ve played professional soccer are numerous, perhaps dozens have. No one made it to MLS, although Kai Kasiguran was.literally one injury away from playing for the Chicago fire. He was.first on the taxi squad, so to speak, but he got a major injury before someone on the Fire did, so he never got that call.

Offline WUPHF

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Re: D1 vs D3 comparison
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 05:41:41 pm »
The Massey Ratings would give us a better overall rankings if they did not factor in scoring differential.

It is interesting to run the Massey match-up.  Washington University played an exhibition against Saint Louis and lost 4-1.  Massey gives SLU an 80% chance of a 2-1 win.  I think the differential would be significantly greater if it were played today.