Author Topic: The Big Dance  (Read 46829 times)

Offline PaulNewman

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 05:30:14 pm »
Middle of pack NESCAC is very good soccer and some of these other teams might be challenged to win even 1 or 2 games in the NESCAC or UAA (see Emory Eagles).

[RANT] Apologies for my side-bar, but I couldn't let this slide.  I struggle to call NESCAC very good soccer.  Maybe very successful soccer, but I've not been impressed with the quality of the game in those I watched. [END RANT]

Very competitive soccer?  I'm generally not a NESCAC apologist.  The team I follow is not a NESCAC team.  But they have won 3 out of the last 4 national titles.

Offline Ommadawn

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 05:47:36 pm »
The current discussion reminds me of a posting from last year by our friend Blooter:

If I can borrow comparisons with foreign leagues solely in terms of style of play, this is what I'd say:

NESCAC – English Premier League – Physical and athletic. A very competitive league where the gap from top-to-bottom isn't as large as other leagues. Much like the EPL there are a few teams who can play a possession-based game such as Tufts and Williams, but the style of play is pretty direct for the most part. The top teams are always in the hunt – even if, in the case of the EPL, there hasn't been a UCL Champion from the League since 2012, whereas the NESCAC has won the last 3 UAA titles.
UAA – La Liga – Technical and skillful. Pass-and-move is the name of the game, although Brandeis can play direct when necessary – they are probably the most physical team in the league, while Chicago and Rochester are probably the most athletic sides. The teams at the top of the UAA are always relatively competitive in terms of the national picture, but perhaps the opposite of the NESCAC/EPL comparison is true here, as the last four UCL titles have been won by La Liga sides while Brandeis is the only UAA side to have won a national title (and that was before they became members of the UAA).
NEWMAC – Bundesliga – A couple of solid possession teams, but most teams line up relatively "pragmatic" – at least in my experience. I say pragmatic because a "defensive" lineup would be more like Serie A, while the Bundesliga (and the NEWMAC) are relatively balanced.

Offline blooter442

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 05:51:16 pm »
The current discussion reminds me of a posting from last year by our friend Blooter:

Forgot about that one! Before I saw it was a quoted post I first saw the text about PL, La Liga, and was like hey, that looks familiar...thanks for posting!

Offline WarhawkFan

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 06:51:55 pm »
As someone new to following soccer as well as D3 athletics, how does a team like Claremont-Mudd-Scripps who is ranked #1 in the West region get left out when Southwestern (Texas) who is ranked #5 regionally get in with the Pool C bid?

According to https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings (the ones released today) the NCAA has Southwestern ranked #1 in the region despite having a worse record than Trinity or CMS, a lower winning percentage against RROs, and a 1-3 h2h loss to Trinity.    CMS was third.   The only thing SW had over either school was a better SOS (by a whopping .02).   Don't ask me.

Honest question: Are these regional rankings released today there solely to serve the purpose of justifying At-Large bids? In this situation, that seems to be the case...

These are supposed to be the final numbers the NCAA uses in making their decisions.  Unfortunately (in CMS' case) we have zero explanation why a small (significant, but still small) difference in OWP overrides much larger differences in overall record and records against RROs.

I'd sure love Christian or one of the d3soccer folks to weigh in on this.  I've never seen this large of a disconnect between the NCAA's own criteria and their selections.

I'd also like to know whether H2H plays any role at all...From my slim understanding, anyway, it does not. UWP top 3 in the North, even though they lost to SNC, who finished 6th in the region? I know that they took a Pool B bid, but one could argue that since there were 2 Pool Bs, Platteville essentially took SNC's Pool C spot. I simply do not understand. Does H2H have any weight? It certainly should, in my opinion.

Am I missing something? The only Pool B I'm seeing is Platteville?

Offline Buck O.

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 07:00:52 pm »
As someone new to following soccer as well as D3 athletics, how does a team like Claremont-Mudd-Scripps who is ranked #1 in the West region get left out when Southwestern (Texas) who is ranked #5 regionally get in with the Pool C bid?

According to https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings (the ones released today) the NCAA has Southwestern ranked #1 in the region despite having a worse record than Trinity or CMS, a lower winning percentage against RROs, and a 1-3 h2h loss to Trinity.    CMS was third.   The only thing SW had over either school was a better SOS (by a whopping .02).   Don't ask me.

Honest question: Are these regional rankings released today there solely to serve the purpose of justifying At-Large bids? In this situation, that seems to be the case...

These are supposed to be the final numbers the NCAA uses in making their decisions.  Unfortunately (in CMS' case) we have zero explanation why a small (significant, but still small) difference in OWP overrides much larger differences in overall record and records against RROs.

I'd sure love Christian or one of the d3soccer folks to weigh in on this.  I've never seen this large of a disconnect between the NCAA's own criteria and their selections.

I'd also like to know whether H2H plays any role at all...From my slim understanding, anyway, it does not. UWP top 3 in the North, even though they lost to SNC, who finished 6th in the region? I know that they took a Pool B bid, but one could argue that since there were 2 Pool Bs, Platteville essentially took SNC's Pool C spot. I simply do not understand. Does H2H have any weight? It certainly should, in my opinion.

Am I missing something? The only Pool B I'm seeing is Platteville?

You, me and the NCAA, which also says there was only one Pool B bid:  https://www.ncaa.com/news/soccer-men/article/2018-11-05/college-soccer-diii-mens-championship-bracket-released-2018?amp

Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 07:04:28 pm »
As someone new to following soccer as well as D3 athletics, how does a team like Claremont-Mudd-Scripps who is ranked #1 in the West region get left out when Southwestern (Texas) who is ranked #5 regionally get in with the Pool C bid?

I may have misread or misunderstood, but I thought I also saw other posters referring to more than one Pool B bid
According to https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings (the ones released today) the NCAA has Southwestern ranked #1 in the region despite having a worse record than Trinity or CMS, a lower winning percentage against RROs, and a 1-3 h2h loss to Trinity.    CMS was third.   The only thing SW had over either school was a better SOS (by a whopping .02).   Don't ask me.

Honest question: Are these regional rankings released today there solely to serve the purpose of justifying At-Large bids? In this situation, that seems to be the case...

These are supposed to be the final numbers the NCAA uses in making their decisions.  Unfortunately (in CMS' case) we have zero explanation why a small (significant, but still small) difference in OWP overrides much larger differences in overall record and records against RROs.

I'd sure love Christian or one of the d3soccer folks to weigh in on this.  I've never seen this large of a disconnect between the NCAA's own criteria and their selections.

I'd also like to know whether H2H plays any role at all...From my slim understanding, anyway, it does not. UWP top 3 in the North, even though they lost to SNC, who finished 6th in the region? I know that they took a Pool B bid, but one could argue that since there were 2 Pool Bs, Platteville essentially took SNC's Pool C spot. I simply do not understand. Does H2H have any weight? It certainly should, in my opinion.

Am I missing something? The only Pool B I'm seeing is Platteville?

You, me and the NCAA, which also says there was only one Pool B bid:  https://www.ncaa.com/news/soccer-men/article/2018-11-05/college-soccer-diii-mens-championship-bracket-released-2018?amp

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 07:28:44 pm »
Middle of pack NESCAC is very good soccer and some of these other teams might be challenged to win even 1 or 2 games in the NESCAC or UAA (see Emory Eagles).

[RANT] Apologies for my side-bar, but I couldn't let this slide.  I struggle to call NESCAC very good soccer.  Maybe very successful soccer, but I've not been impressed with the quality of the game in those I watched. [END RANT]


I would totally agree with you BUT it is almost like the committee has given NESCAC the distinction of being the ACC in D1. I will say it is warranted because of 4 different teams in the league(almost a 5th) have won NCAA National Championships. So it is what it is. The playing style SUCKS I agree but it is successful and the athleticism of the players in Nescac trumps the conservative ugly soccer. Interestingly, I love the UAA as their Head Coaches for the most part play some true futbol and are not afraid to send #'s forward and play teams straight up. However, at SOME POINT the UAA has to answer to the fact they are getting 4-5 teams in every year and not winning National Championships. I know there road the Championship is harder but still Nescac has gotten it done in the Final 4 and the UAA has yet to do it. Nescac does not get 4-5 teams every year as MOST years they get the AQ and 2 Pool C's it just ended up that New England got 5 Pool C's(which is normal) and they all happened to be Nescac's.

I will say that 5 Pool C's is a bit much...As much as I know Midd is an NCAA team I personally do not like the fact that the committee rewarded them for playing 5 CRAP non-conference opponents. I thought had they gotten left out it would have forced Head Coach Alex Elias to play a couple tougher non-conference teams. The New England team that got screwed was Roger Williams.  They were 16-5-0 with a 3-2-0 RvR and a .561 SOS and lost a real tough game to Gordon in the CCC Championship. I saw RWU in person and I know they are better than Gordon but they failed to win that game when they needed to. Personally, had they gotten to PK's with Gordon I think they would have gotten in over Midd. They jumped from not being ranked to #7 in New England so the committee recognized it BUT it just was not enough to pass Midd. Midd did have some solid results against the ranked Nescac teams and in the end that was the difference.

I mean Endicott has a major beef as well. 10-6-2 with a .612 SOS and 4-4-0 RvR.....That is VERY CLOSE and I think had they had one less loss maybe two they would have gotten in. Their horrible start to the 2018 season KILLED them. The loss to Trinity CT is a killer but other than that I am the other 5 losses were against St.Joe's, Rochester, Brandeis, Conn College and Roger Williams. Those are all very good teams and 4 ranked wins and a SOS over .600 is very tough to ignore.

Offline Flying Weasel

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 07:40:21 pm »
Two Pool B berths?!?  Where did someone get that idea?  Who did they think was the second Pool B selection?

Offline WarhawkFan

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 07:42:33 pm »
Two Pool B berths?!?  Where did someone get that idea?  Who did they think was the second Pool B selection?

The only thing I can think is they forgot that UW-Superior is now in a conference

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 07:56:23 pm »
As someone new to following soccer as well as D3 athletics, how does a team like Claremont-Mudd-Scripps who is ranked #1 in the West region get left out when Southwestern (Texas) who is ranked #5 regionally get in with the Pool C bid?

According to https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/regional-rankings (the ones released today) the NCAA has Southwestern ranked #1 in the region despite having a worse record than Trinity or CMS, a lower winning percentage against RROs, and a 1-3 h2h loss to Trinity.    CMS was third.   The only thing SW had over either school was a better SOS (by a whopping .02).   Don't ask me.

Honest question: Are these regional rankings released today there solely to serve the purpose of justifying At-Large bids? In this situation, that seems to be the case...

These are supposed to be the final numbers the NCAA uses in making their decisions.  Unfortunately (in CMS' case) we have zero explanation why a small (significant, but still small) difference in OWP overrides much larger differences in overall record and records against RROs.   Then there's the fact that SW was 0-1-1 against Trinity with the tie actually a loss in PK. 

I'd sure love Christian or one of the d3soccer folks to weigh in on this.  I've never seen this large of a disconnect between the NCAA's own criteria and their selections.


$100 dollar bet it was because they did not want an extra flight to Texas. They already have Pacific Lutheran going to the midwest.

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 08:00:18 pm »
The current discussion reminds me of a posting from last year by our friend Blooter:

If I can borrow comparisons with foreign leagues solely in terms of style of play, this is what I'd say:

NESCAC English Premier League Physical and athletic. A very competitive league where the gap from top-to-bottom isn't as large as other leagues. Much like the EPL there are a few teams who can play a possession-based game such as Tufts and Williams, but the style of play is pretty direct for the most part. The top teams are always in the hunt even if, in the case of the EPL, there hasn't been a UCL Champion from the League since 2012, whereas the NESCAC has won the last 3 UAA titles.
UAA La Liga Technical and skillful. Pass-and-move is the name of the game, although Brandeis can play direct when necessary they are probably the most physical team in the league, while Chicago and Rochester are probably the most athletic sides. The teams at the top of the UAA are always relatively competitive in terms of the national picture, but perhaps the opposite of the NESCAC/EPL comparison is true here, as the last four UCL titles have been won by La Liga sides while Brandeis is the only UAA side to have won a national title (and that was before they became members of the UAA).
NEWMAC Bundesliga A couple of solid possession teams, but most teams line up relatively "pragmatic" at least in my experience. I say pragmatic because a "defensive" lineup would be more like Serie A, while the Bundesliga (and the NEWMAC) are relatively balanced.


What conference would be:


Serie A?

English Championship ?   

Nescac reminds me more of the English Championship but he is spot on with the UAA being La Liga

Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 08:05:24 pm »
Two Pool B berths?!?  Where did someone get that idea?  Who did they think was the second Pool B selection?

Yeah I mistook UW Superior as Pool B...regardless, there were several poor Pool C selections, which I have evidenced in several past posts

Offline Mr.Right

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 08:13:32 pm »
I am sorry the committee did its job for the most part based on the criteria. How are they supposed to leave Williams out with 5 RANKED Wins? I could see leaving them out if they had 1 more loss BUT at 10-5-2 its enough.

Offline NEsoccerfan

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 08:38:47 pm »

[/quote]
Nescac reminds me more of the English Championship but he is spot on with the UAA being La Liga
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I have to agree. Outside of Tufts, the Nescac style of play - while undoubtedly successful - is so primitive. Many high level high school teams and all academy teams play a much more aesthetically appealing brand of soccer. I love this sport, even at the d3 level, but I simply can't bring myself to watch Nescac games. I say this all while recognizing that the goal isn't to make things entertaining for myself or others. The goal is to win and be successful, which Nescac sides have achieved.

Offline TheGreenKnight920

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Re: The Big Dance
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 08:43:56 pm »
I am sorry the committee did its job for the most part based on the criteria. How are they supposed to leave Williams out with 5 RANKED Wins? I could see leaving them out if they had 1 more loss BUT at 10-5-2 its enough.

Their criteria has been applied wildly inconsistently. Southwestern over CMS? Augsburg or St. Thomas over St Norbert/North Park? Hard to justify a team with a winning percentage of roughly .600 when there are teams that have far better metrics.