Author Topic: Big Dance  (Read 44531 times)

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4473
  • Karma: +208/-135
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #330 on: November 23, 2019, 11:03:50 am »
LONG LONG DAY......"It may be GOLD but it looks like Yellow".....

Gametime....

Offline PaulNewman

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 3289
  • Karma: +189/-123
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #331 on: November 23, 2019, 11:06:35 am »
There are multiple angles on the subbing issue.  The first three that come to mind are....

1) Strategic -- Aside from aesthetics and complaints that D3 doesn't mirror professional soccer more closely, of course you are going to play your best players and play them in ways that the team is most effective.  When playing against other teams of similar talent, just makes sense to me that a team that can play 17-20 guys has a better chance than one that uses 1-3 subs, and especially as noted in back to back games although you just can't do that on the fly.  Now who am I to question Calvin's approach given their success, but it's also hard to believe that programs as big-time as Calvin and NP don't have a deeper team.  I'm not arguing that every team should play 20-25 guys, but less than 16-17 seems odd to me at least in D3.  I think most top D1 teams play 16-17 or more.

2)  Team chemistry/morale -- Speaks for itself.

3)  D3 mission or D3 mission + devoutly Christian orientation -- Yes, this D3 soccer thing is serious stuff but it's not the World Cup or D1 where athletic scholarships are a big deal and where playing supposedly is more like a "job.".  Generally a coach in D3 has to do poorly over a number of years to have his or her job in jeopardy.  Anyway, as I already said, just rubs me the wrong way and definitely surprises me regarding Calvin.  BTW, in last year's title game Tufts played 20 and Calvin played 13. 


Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4473
  • Karma: +208/-135
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #332 on: November 23, 2019, 11:32:45 am »
JESUS----Amherst backs are just HOOFING...I mean not even looking up to see where it is going...Amherst midfield tryin to play and Cutler Coleman again busting his ass to play one more day...

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 23659
  • Karma: +2800/-890
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #333 on: November 23, 2019, 11:49:31 am »
Now who am I to question Calvin's approach given their success, but it's also hard to believe that programs as big-time as Calvin and NP don't have a deeper team.  I'm not arguing that every team should play 20-25 guys, but less than 16-17 seems odd to me at least in D3.  I think most top D1 teams play 16-17 or more.

Again, I can't speak as to why Ryan Souders coached his Knights the way he did last night -- although I take the fact that he only subbed in two as a compliment to NPU. I can only speak to the way that Kris Grahn shortened his bench last night.

NPU typically does play 15 men during the regular season. Sixteen different players on the roster played in 11 or more games, and there weren't 11 gimmes on the schedule. It's not a case of NPU not having a deeper team. Some of the players who didn't get into last night's contest -- Patrick Knap, for instance, who had a 7 g, 3 a season, or Runar Berg-Domaas, who started 15 games this season, or Alfredo Pichardo, who has logged over a thousand minutes on the pitch for the NPU varsity over the past three seasons, are the three prime examples -- were players whom Kris Grahn has used substantially all season. I suspect that if NPU had won last night, all three of them -- or at least F Knap and MF Pichardo -- would be on the field at some point today against Luther. But in going up against the #1 team in the country it was apparent that Kris was rolling the dice that his dozen stalwarts could hold out for 110 minutes.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 23659
  • Karma: +2800/-890
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #334 on: November 23, 2019, 12:11:48 pm »
Thanks for the compliment and for the thoughtful post, Falconer. As to your point:

Let me speak only about this 2019 season, Greg. NPU finished an excellent season at 16-5-2, with notable wins over Hope (4-0) and UW-W (2-1), and a 1-1 tie vs a Wheaton team that didn't have its best season and didn't get to dance. NPU lost to Chicago (3-1), Rowan (3-1), and K'zoo (0-1). The Vikings didn't have all of their starters available for much of the season--and Falcon fans like me certainly understand what that means (we have a key guy out this weekend, for that matter)--and they absolutely improved as men healed up and the leaves started falling. No question about that. But, the Massey ratings this week have NPU at #20, immediately above Rowan and well below Chicago, which seems about right to me considering the whole "body of work," to use a term popular with sports commentators these days that I actually don't like very much. I entirely agree with others that NPU outplayed Calvin yesterday, that they are more athletic and might even be a better team (right now) than Calvin and would have been deserving of a place in the Final Four. But, Massey works with objective data, and the 16-5-2 speaks for itself: nothing there argues that NPU should have been seen this year as among the very top teams in D3. They weren't. Not to put too fine a point on it.

This is a philosophical difference with regard to ranking and respect. Massey deals only with the data that is at hand, and I think it's obvious that, in terms of wins, losses, ties, margins, strength of schedule, etc., North Park had a very good profile but not an elite one. But that was never in question. My question had to do with the team's (and the program's, by extension) reputation.

Apart from what other D3 men's soccer fans think about the Vikings, the question is this: Is a poll supposed to strictly measure results, or does it measure perceived ability? In other words, are you going strictly upon the basis of wins, losses, and ties, or are you balloting teams 1 thru 25 based upon which teams you think would be likely to beat the teams ranked below it (on down through all 419 teams in D3)? I think that the consensus here is that NPU is not the 20th-best team in D3, as measured by the data-based criteria of Massey, nor is it the 25th-best team in D3, as measured by whatever ranking philosophy d3soccer.com uses, nor is it off the radar entirely, as Matthew Zinner would have it. The Vikings are better than that.

This is a philosophical discussion that pops up from time to time on the men's basketball and baseball boards on d3boards.com, because, like soccer, basketball and baseball have lengthy seasons with a lot of games, and the issue of record vs. perceived ability thus comes up in discussions about rankings. Dave McHugh, who is a pollster in the d3hoops.com Top 25 poll, can speak to this at length. As he'll tell you, the operating philosophy with which all 25 pollsters work in that particular poll is to attempt to measure perceived ability -- who is most likely to beat all of the teams listed underneath it on a neutral court under normal conditions -- rather than W-L record. And that's my beef with the d3soccer.com poll, which I think was exposed by the fact that #25 outplayed #1 last night, even though #1 ended up being victorious in the 109th minute.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4473
  • Karma: +208/-135
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #335 on: November 23, 2019, 12:54:46 pm »
Amherst advances and Serpone got some of his key starters besides his backline, Coleman and Shiammz for the last 20-25 minutes.

Offline calvin_grad

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
  • Karma: +169/-36
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #336 on: November 23, 2019, 01:14:00 pm »
Calvin had 16 players play in at least 15 games this year and another 4 that played in between 10 and 14 games.  Coach Souders decided to shorten his bench for the game last night for whatever reason.  I'm going to trust a coach with his track record.

Offline scoutteam1

  • Junior Varsity
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #337 on: November 23, 2019, 01:18:52 pm »
Centre v CMS has a wild finish. 4 goals in the last 3 minutes. Very poor defending and composure at the end of the game. Centre advances to Elite 8. Will be interesting to see if they can hang with Kenyon or Montclair St.

Offline Gotberg

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 494
  • Karma: +48/-14
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #338 on: November 23, 2019, 01:33:46 pm »
It doesn't seem to me that NPU has enjoyed a lot of respect in this online community, even after the run to the national title game in 2017, but perhaps that's starting to change. D3 men's soccer is sort of an old-guard kind of level, which is understandable when you look at the high degree of continuity with regard to which teams are playing in the second and third weekends of the tourney year after year. Building a program that garners that kind of respect is a process. But I think that d3soccer.com has regarded NPU even more lightly; the Vikings barely squeaked into the last ranking at #25, and Matthew Zinner didn't even deign to mention North Park at all during the season after listing the Vikings as his #20 dark horse in his preseason column. Perhaps going toe-to-toe with d3soccer.com's #1 team today the way that the Vikings did will turn a few of their heads as well.
Before responding directly to this, Greg, let me offer congratulations to the NPU team for a splendid season, a terrific game yesterday against the best of the best, and personal regards for the way you represent your university over the airwaves and here online. A big tip of my hat.

Entirely apart from soccer, my own respect for NPU as an institution is very high, and my knowledge of the institution is not superficial. I've mentioned a few times that I spent most of my career in higher education. I knew former NPU president Parkyn long before he went to NPU; ditto former NPU Provost Joe Jones, who is now president of Fresno Pacific; I knew well the late, sadly missed Larry Martin, a wonderful person who did so much to put NPU's physics program on the map; and I have known several other present or former faculty members and administrators at the college or seminary. I have sometimes had occasion to explain to people the distinctives of the Evangelical Covenant Church, and--believe it or not--I was offered a job at NPU before anyone I named worked there, and perhaps even before you first stepped foot on campus.  (I declined it only b/c I liked the job description better at an SEC university, not out of any dislike or disrespect for NPU.)  In other words, I probably know more about NPU and its mission, and perhaps also have more respect for it, than any other poster here apart from you, and maybe a few other occasional contributors who have been associated personally with NPU, or one or two Wheaton fans who have (to their credit) praised NPU soccer b/c they have seen a lot of it over the years and can be objective. So, what comes next shouldn't be seen as arising from a lack of respect. Quite the contrary.

Let me speak only about this 2019 season, Greg. NPU finished an excellent season at 16-5-2, with notable wins over Hope (4-0) and UW-W (2-1), and a 1-1 tie vs a Wheaton team that didn't have its best season and didn't get to dance. NPU lost to Chicago (3-1), Rowan (3-1), and K'zoo (0-1). The Vikings didn't have all of their starters available for much of the season--and Falcon fans like me certainly understand what that means (we have a key guy out this weekend, for that matter)--and they absolutely improved as men healed up and the leaves started falling. No question about that. But, the Massey ratings this week have NPU at #20, immediately above Rowan and well below Chicago, which seems about right to me considering the whole "body of work," to use a term popular with sports commentators these days that I actually don't like very much. I entirely agree with others that NPU outplayed Calvin yesterday, that they are more athletic and might even be a better team (right now) than Calvin and would have been deserving of a place in the Final Four. But, Massey works with objective data, and the 16-5-2 speaks for itself: nothing there argues that NPU should have been seen this year as among the very top teams in D3. They weren't. Not to put too fine a point on it.

Now, next year the story might be different. Wasn't every single player who got into the game yesterday an underclassman, or did I miss something? Granted, you might lose someone somewhere (I recall hearing about NPU players who go elsewhere before graduating, or who graduate "early" because they already had some college in Sweden before arriving), but for goodness sake NPU fans have every reason to be very optimistic about 2020. Very optimistic. Unless they do lose several starters, your team should be dynamite, and if they don't stumble a few times early in the season I would expect them to be regarded as top five from the gate. Of course, if the European connection results (directly or indirectly) in some starters needing to be replaced, that's what comes with that particular recruiting strategy. Again, unless I missed something, just two Americans played any minutes for NPU yesterday, both of them awfully good players (Barriga and DeCarne) to be sure. Either of them (along with half the other guys) would start for almost any other D3 team I could name. Any opponent who doesn't fully respect the talent at NPU is about to lose.

My best to you and NPU, Greg.

My take is before Kemkers and Barriga moved to defense, they were a good team.  After Kris shifted them to the defense, they became a national contender.

I think Kris transitioned to this shape around the beginning of the CCIW conference games.

I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best

Offline Gregory Sager

  • Hall of Fame
  • All-American
  • ********
  • Posts: 23659
  • Karma: +2800/-890
  • North Park Vikings: Nat'l champs, 1978-79-80-85-87
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #339 on: November 23, 2019, 02:45:41 pm »
He moved Barriga and Kemkers to the backline after the loss to Carthage. NPU went 8-1-2 after that change.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4473
  • Karma: +208/-135
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #340 on: November 23, 2019, 03:05:41 pm »
RPI GK literally pooping his pants here....2 goals u cannot be giving up..2nd goal should have been closed but still I thought he should of got down...no idea what happened on the corner

Offline Mr.Right

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 4473
  • Karma: +208/-135
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #341 on: November 23, 2019, 03:07:11 pm »
scratch that ...2-2 after a PK

Offline Buck O.

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Karma: +11/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #342 on: November 23, 2019, 03:20:45 pm »
Kenyon ties Montclair 1-1 with about 10 minutes left after a sweet free kick into the upper left corner of the goal from about 20 yards.

Offline Buck O.

  • Second-stringer
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Karma: +11/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #343 on: November 23, 2019, 03:55:48 pm »
And Montclair wins in the second OT.  Amherst is the only host school to advance to the Elite Eight.

Offline jknezek

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 5094
  • Karma: +847/-113
    • View Profile
Re: Big Dance
« Reply #344 on: November 23, 2019, 04:18:21 pm »
The Tufts W&L game keeps freezing on my screen. Every time I log back in I end up at an earlier part of the game. I've watched the 16th to 26th minute a dozen times. Nothing happens... this sucks.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 04:50:40 pm by jknezek »