Author Topic: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches  (Read 8289 times)

Offline Titan Q

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2020, 10:41:30 am »
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.

I think it is a pretty significant consideration.  Seems to me the top programs, historically, are the ones that have shown up in that second weekend a bunch of times.

Offline Titan Q

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2020, 10:46:06 am »
From Bo Ryan's old bio on Wisconsin's site...

It was during his 15-year tenure at UW-Platteville (1984-99) that Ryan firmly established himself as one of the country's top coaches. He guided the Division III school to a phenomenal 353-76 (.822) overall record and, in his final 12 seasons, the Pioneers:
Won four national championships (1991, 1995, 1998 and 1999)
Compiled a 314-37 (.895) record
Won eight WIAC titles
Were the winningest NCAA men's basketball team of the 1990s (all divisions) with a 266-26 (.908) record
Compiled a 30-5 NCAA Division III tournament mark
Never won fewer than 23 games
Compiled a 157-7 (.957) home record
Set the all-time single-season Division III scoring defense mark (47.5 ppg) in 1996-97


To me, Bo Ryan is lock for the D3 MBB Mount Rushmore. 

15 years as a D3 head coach seems like plenty of time for consideration.  Then once you look at the results...wow.

Offline Titan Q

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2020, 10:51:26 am »
Here is a key consideration for this -- is it a requirement to have won a national championship?

If so, that would rule out Steve Moore (Wooster)...and that would probably be a pretty controversial thing to do. 

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2020, 11:12:29 am »
Glenn Robinson (F&M) would be an even bigger omit, if that's your concern, because his Diplomats got to the Final Four five times without winning it, while Moore's Scots got there three times.
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Offline thebear

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2020, 11:26:03 am »
FWIW, Here are the D-3 Coaches who have won multiple national championships as head coaches
Ryan, Bo - Wisconsin Platteville (4)
McCarell, Dan - North Park (3)

And in chronological order of their 2nd win
Bessoir, Bob - Scranton (2)
Welsh, Jerry - SUNY Potsdam (2)
Djurikovic, Bosko - North Park (2)
Vander Meulen, Dave - Wisconsin-Whitewater (2)
Bennett, Jack - Wisconsin-Stevens Point (2)
Edwards, Mark - Washington - StL (2)
Hixson, Dave - Amherst (2)
Miller. Pat - Wisconsin- Whitewater (2)
Semling, Bob - Wisconsin Stevens Point (2)

Mt.Rushmore probably has to start from this list.

With all due respect to gaudy win totals, grabbing the brass ring is pretty important.


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Offline ronk

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2020, 11:32:44 am »
 And, as an unique aside, Scranton's Mike Strong has 2 championship rings also - as an assistant on the men's side('76) and his own title on the women's side('85).

Offline thebear

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2020, 11:47:48 am »
Several of these coaches has rings as asst's, I just listed head coaches.  I've carried a clipboard for one of them.
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Offline Titan Q

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2020, 11:59:34 am »
Glenn Robinson (F&M) would be an even bigger omit, if that's your concern, because his Diplomats got to the Final Four five times without winning it, while Moore's Scots got there three times.
Definitely.

Offline SpringSt7

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2020, 12:12:37 pm »
FWIW, Here are the D-3 Coaches who have won multiple national championships as head coaches
Ryan, Bo - Wisconsin Platteville (4)
McCarell, Dan - North Park (3)

And in chronological order of their 2nd win
Bessoir, Bob - Scranton (2)
Welsh, Jerry - SUNY Potsdam (2)
Djurikovic, Bosko - North Park (2)
Vander Meulen, Dave - Wisconsin-Whitewater (2)
Bennett, Jack - Wisconsin-Stevens Point (2)
Edwards, Mark - Washington - StL (2)
Hixson, Dave - Amherst (2)
Miller. Pat - Wisconsin- Whitewater (2)
Semling, Bob - Wisconsin Stevens Point (2)

Mt.Rushmore probably has to start from this list.

With all due respect to gaudy win totals, grabbing the brass ring is pretty important.

Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2020, 12:42:24 pm »
I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
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Offline ronk

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2020, 12:44:24 pm »
Several of these coaches has rings as asst's, I just listed head coaches.  I've carried a clipboard for one of them.

 Unique in the sense of both genders.

Offline Titan Q

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2020, 01:04:52 pm »
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 01:23:49 pm by Titan Q »

Offline Flying Dutch Fan

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2020, 01:56:42 pm »
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.

And while not quite to Steve Moore level, I'd put Glenn Van Wieren in the mix as well in this discussion (I know I'm a bit biased, but the numbers say it IMHO):

Glenn Van Wieren
* 660-219 (.751)
* 17 MIAA titles in 33 seasons at Hope
* .776 MIAA WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles
2016 & 2020 MIAA Pick 'Em Champion

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Offline gordonmann

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2020, 02:31:51 pm »
Quote
I don't think you can leave someone who won three national championships off of the list.

That's in reference to McCarrell, I presume? He's a tough case because he coached at the beginning of the D3 era and then moved on.

For me personally longevity is less important than excellence over a period but, to me, that period should be more than a couple of years. Is the right number 10 years or less? I don't know.

Longevity can be the product of a lot of things, some of them more based on circumstance than anything else. This isn't in reference to Moore or Robinson, but I've seen coaches at the women's level roll up wins when they clearly were not the lead coach any more.

Again, this is totally my own made-up process that you can totally disregard (that's why this is fun), but I personally would set some kind of criteria, see who meets it and then see if you can argue why one or two people on the Mount should come off in favor of someone else who doesn't meet the criteria. You can't fill four spots by first coming up with a list of 10 guys ought to be on the mountain unless you have another mountain to spare. :)

And, yes, I'd argue that if there's one spot left on the Mountain, it goes to Bosko over Moore, given what he has accomplished at multiple schools including the role he played at North Park, which is arguably Division III's greatest dynasty (and Greg Sager didn't even pay me to say that).

The tougher question would be something like -- There's one spot for Bosko or McCarrell. Who gets it? Or there's one spot for Bennett or Semling. Who gets it?  I thought the answer to that second question was Bennett given that his name (and his brother's) is on the court, but Semling now has more wins.

There are no objectively right answers, which is what makes this fun.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 02:34:14 pm by gordonmann »

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2020, 02:58:43 pm »
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.


I'm not saying I'm buying it either. I think measuring championships in this particular instance is more important than in the NFL, as I mentioned, no one is going to think Eli Manning is better than Favre because he has more Super Bowl wins. But, I'm not discounting total wins. I then asked, "do you take wins over championships?" I asked, I didn't answer.

This is all very subjective, obviously. I mean, we're including conference championships here too. Some conferences have multiple teams (3, sometimes 4) that have made the Final Four and/or won national championships. Do we take that into account against other coaches who are in conferences that only have possibly TWO dominant teams in the conference?

Another thing to consider isn't just the number of wins. I think winning % is more important. And as gordonmann stated, Semling has more wins now, but he's also been there longer.
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