MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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Next Man Up

Quote from: kiko on May 11, 2022, 08:15:42 PM
Quote from: Next Man Up on May 11, 2022, 07:56:13 PM
Do you have any more theories of management that you would like to enlighten us with?

Yes.  Spreading an institution's dirty laundry all over a message board is perhaps not as helpful as you seem to think.

Note the part where I said I would have been fine if Vince had been chosen for the role.  You are arguing with strawmen that badly twist what I posted.

1. Does it not make sense that if the dirty laundry is left out of sight in the closet with no attempt made to clean it and hang it out in the fresh air, the dirty laundry will continue to stink and cause additional problems going forward?

2. If you start by saying you would have been fine if Vince had been hired why not just stop there rather than implying he would be an even better candidate if he jumped through a few more hoops that likely wouldn't have done anything to enhance his readiness for the position?






So young hero, ask yourself............................Do you want to go to college, get a good education, and play (basketball)(football), or do you want to go to college, get a good education, and watch (basketball)(football)? 🤔 😏

Don't surround yourself with yourself. 🧍🏼‍♂️(Yes)

Next Man Up

Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 11, 2022, 10:33:12 PM
Quote from: kiko on May 11, 2022, 08:15:42 PM
Spreading an institution's dirty laundry all over a message board is perhaps not as helpful as you seem to think.

I've been kind of wondering about this myself, and I'm sure a lot more is being said off this message board than on it.

There isn't much doubt about that. The phones of many NCCers are beginning to melt due to the non-stop texts they've been receiving on the subject over the last few weeks.
As far as the amount being said on the board well, consider how many people familiar with the situation even post in this room on a regular basis.  :D
So young hero, ask yourself............................Do you want to go to college, get a good education, and play (basketball)(football), or do you want to go to college, get a good education, and watch (basketball)(football)? 🤔 😏

Don't surround yourself with yourself. 🧍🏼‍♂️(Yes)

kiko

Quote from: Next Man Up on May 12, 2022, 01:35:09 AM
Quote from: kiko on May 11, 2022, 08:15:42 PM
Quote from: Next Man Up on May 11, 2022, 07:56:13 PM
Do you have any more theories of management that you would like to enlighten us with?

Yes.  Spreading an institution's dirty laundry all over a message board is perhaps not as helpful as you seem to think.

Note the part where I said I would have been fine if Vince had been chosen for the role.  You are arguing with strawmen that badly twist what I posted.

1. Does it not make sense that if the dirty laundry is left out of sight in the closet with no attempt made to clean it and hang it out in the fresh air, the dirty laundry will continue to stink and cause additional problems going forward?

2. If you start by saying you would have been fine if Vince had been hired why not just stop there rather than implying he would be an even better candidate if he jumped through a few more hoops that likely wouldn't have done anything to enhance his readiness for the position?

I'm not implying that Vince would have been a better candidate if he had a greater breadth of experience besides North Central.  I'm overtly stating it.  We clearly disagree on the extent to which this experience can help an individual grow their skills.

Vince was a good candidate.  And as I mentioned, I would have been fine with the school leaning into him if that's the direction they wanted to go.  But he was nowhere close to the blindingly obvious, no-one-else-is-acceptable choice that you seem to think he was.

You do you.  But I personally don't believe that continuing to grind this axe on this forum well after the fact is productive.  If you think you are cleaning the dirty laundry by filling up these boards with inside dish that would typically not be made public, then you are naive.  Some things are better addressed via private channels.  The administration has made its choice, and whether he was your guy or not, he deserves... a welcome that is something other than what you're spewing forth.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: WUPHF on May 12, 2022, 01:22:37 AM
I am sorry guys, but they are basically the same schools admissions-wise.  Don't believe the Caltech is a smaller school hype.  The global admissions marketplace means they can both get the same students.

That's simply not true. The admissions process makes it totally different. Sure, the test scores and GPAs may be comparable, but you're not going to get the little nudge in the direction of athletics as an extracurricular activity on your high-school résumé from Caltech that you'd get elsewhere. I'm not saying that the old stereotype of academicians looking down their noses at jocks is always necessarily the operating principle that drives the Caltech admissions process, but there's certainly no advantage gained whatsoever from having played a sport. This is not only true concerning men's basketball; Caltech has historically been just plain awful across the board in athletics (and still is, to a large degree), which is certainly not the case at MIT.

MIT just has a whole different mindset when it comes to athletics than does Caltech. I'm not saying that MIT coaches get in every recruit that they want, but their admissions success rate is obviously a lot higher than Caltech's. Heck, I'm not convinced that it's always even a matter of recruiting. I've told this story on CCIW Chat before, but in 2019 the MIT men's volleyball team came to Chicago to play North Park. MIT has had a pretty successful run in that sport -- 372-140 (.721) over the past sixteen seasons -- and the Engineers would go on to mark a 23-9 season in 2019. They were very good, and NPU, being in the first year of the Vikings men's volleyball program, wasn't, so MIT won handily in three sets.

That day, NPU's head coach complimented MIT head coach Todd Elwell on his team's ability level, and expressed his admiration that Elwell could successfully recruit such great players and get them into a school that was not only prestigious but STEM-prestigious. Elwell said, "Recruit? I don't really recruit them. They more or less contact me and tell me that they want to come to MIT and also play volleyball." The NPU coach swore that Elwell was serious.

Does this mean that MIT doesn't even need to recruit for any of its sports in order to be good? Of course not. But it's a far friendlier environment than Caltech for athletics (and, therefore, for athletics recruiting), even for the sports in which the coaches have to work hard at landing good NEWMAC-level student-athletes. MIT sponsors 32 sports, and many of them are quite successful. Heck, MIT even has a football team. By contrast, the idea of Caltech starting up a football program is about as likely as Bob Jones University starting an Islamic Studies major. Like the UAA schools, I'm not convinced that MIT sports plays all that big a role in the common tenor of campus life as compared to other D3 schools, but the school's administration clearly takes athletics seriously. Winning is a familiar theme in Cambridge, MA, not a man-bites-dog story the way that it is in Pasadena, CA.

Both schools may have a beaver mascot, but Caltech's just a completely different animal entirely.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


I believe Caltech applications specifically exclude any non academic information, like extracurriculars or demographics. No "building a class" like other elite schools. A panel of faculty judge academic qualifications essentially blind to other factors. Plus, they're only taking, what, 250 kids a year?

I'd imagine the only school comparably difficult to get into is Julliard, and they don't have a basketball team.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 12, 2022, 07:23:47 AMI believe Caltech applications specifically exclude any non academic information, like extracurriculars or demographics. No "building a class" like other elite schools. A panel of faculty judge academic qualifications essentially blind to other factors.

Yep. That's why I said that it's not necessarily a matter of academicians looking down their noses at jocks.

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 12, 2022, 07:23:47 AMPlus, they're only taking, what, 250 kids a year?

That sounds about right, and it matches what wiki says. It also correlates with the data Pat uses for the Caltech hoops page on d3hoops.com, which is that the school has 977 undergrads.

I'm honestly surprised that the sports rosters of the Beavers are the size that they are. They're small compared to most schools, but they're not nearly as bare-bones skimpy as the similarly admissions-handicapped rosters of Principia.

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 12, 2022, 07:23:47 AM
I'd imagine the only school comparably difficult to get into is Julliard, and they don't have a basketball team.

... which is a shame, because then we wouldn't have to listen to iwu70 constantly yammer on about Illinois Wesleyan having the best pep band in D3. ;)

[cough]John Carroll[cough]  ;D
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 12, 2022, 07:23:47 AM

I believe Caltech applications specifically exclude any non academic information, like extracurriculars or demographics. No "building a class" like other elite schools. A panel of faculty judge academic qualifications essentially blind to other factors.

Incorrect.

If this was true, they would not bother with the standard admissions essay and supplemental essays.

WUPHF

If Caltech did not build a class as it were, they would have almost no public school kids on the rosters, but instead, the committees would privilege the elite private high schools along with a handful of elite publics.

Gregory Sager

Have you looked at Caltech's rosters? That's exactly what they are: a mixture of private schools, publics located in tony suburbs where the wealthy and upper-middle-class kids have all of the bells and whistles for their education that high-end property taxes can buy, and urban magnet/selective public schools.

What you see very little of are kids from Anytown High School in Anytown, USA.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

But that is true regardless.

Kids from Midwest Central High School in Manito, IL have a distinct disadvantage when applying to the elites because.  My point still stands though as there are enough public school kids on the rosters to elucidate my point.

If you can counter my other point, I may start to doubt myself.

Gregory Sager

You make it sound as though public schools are a black mark against getting into an elite college or university, but you and I both know that they aren't. Elite publics are very much a part of the mix at Caltech ... and at NESCAC schools, and at UAA schools such as your own. There's not really any marked difference between the makeup of the rosters of Caltech teams and the makeup of the rosters of those elite academic leagues as far as high school backgrounds go. The difference lies in who from those high schools are going to Caltech and playing sports, as opposed to a Wash U or an Amherst ... or, yes, an MIT (even though it's neither a UAA nor a NESCAC institution). It's a matter of athletic competence, and it's very much tied to the gatekeeping aspect behind Caltech matriculation that Ryan and I have talked about.

Ryan's point about building classes stands. Putting together even a semi-competent team at Caltech is a herculean effort. We've talked already about the pre-Eslinger era of Beavers men's basketball, and how Caltech lost 310 straight SCIAC basketball games, a losing streak that spanned 26 years and garnered national media attention when the Beavers finally snapped it by beating Occidental in the final game of the 2010-11 season. But there's a lot more to it than just the futility of Beavers men's basketball. Over the past ten seasons the Beavers baseball program has gone 34-295 (.103) overall and 11-229 (.046) in SCIAC play. From 2001 through 2014 the Beavers were unable to beat any four-year varsity teams in baseball, and they didn't win a SCIAC game between the 1983 season and the 2017 season. Men's soccer? The Beavers have gone 11-159-4 (.075) overall and 5-138-4 (.048) in SCIAC play over the past ten seasons. It's largely the same on the women's side, although to their credit women's volleyball coach Tom Gardner and women's basketball coach Bridgette Reyes have lifted the Beavers out of glorified-intramurals status to at least marginal success over the past three or four years. As of yet they've come nowhere near what Eslinger has accomplished with Caltech men's basketball over the past seven or eight seasons, but at least they're not getting steamrollered every time they take the floor in those two sports the way that they were before ... so kudos to those two coaches. But by and large in the grand sweep of SCIAC sports Caltech just can't keep up with anybody else in the conference, and if you asked Gray Fox or any of the other posters in the SCIAC room they'd tell you the same thing.

Sometimes correlation does indicate causation.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

#56036
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
You make it sound as though public schools are a black mark against getting into an elite college or university, but you and I both know that they aren't.

I am a public school graduate and I love public schools, but let me ask: if the valedictorians of Oak Park River Forest and Midwest Central apply for admission to Caltech and the decision is based entirely on academics, who gets in?  In that scenario, we could predict the answer nine times out of ten.  Probably ten out of ten, but maybe the committee remembers an alum from Manito and so they can vouch for the rigor of an otherwise unknown school.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Elite publics are very much a part of the mix at Caltech ... and at NESCAC schools, and at UAA schools such as your own. There's not really any marked difference between the makeup of the rosters of Caltech teams and the makeup of the rosters of those elite academic leagues as far as high school backgrounds go. The difference lies in who from those high schools are going to Caltech and playing sports, as opposed to a Wash U or an Amherst ... or, yes, an MIT (even though it's neither a UAA nor a NESCAC institution). It's a matter of athletic competence, and it's very much tied to the gatekeeping aspect behind Caltech matriculation that Ryan and I have talked about.

I wish I had time to address this as it lacks the proper nuance.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Ryan's point about building classes stands.

Ryan's point about building the class was the philosophy of using criteria other than grades and boards to determine admission and diversify the experience of the student body.

I do not believe that Caltech will ask for four personal essays just to throw those in the shredder and focus entirely on academics, but if you have inside knowledge that this is the case, well...

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Putting together even a semi-competent team at Caltech is a herculean effort. We've talked already about the pre-Eslinger era of Beavers men's basketball, and how Caltech lost 310 straight SCIAC basketball games, a losing streak that spanned 26 years and garnered national media attention when the Beavers finally snapped it by beating Occidental in the final game of the 2010-11 season. But there's a lot more to it than just the futility of Beavers men's basketball. Over the past ten seasons the Beavers baseball program has gone 34-295 (.103) overall and 11-229 (.046) in SCIAC play. From 2001 through 2014 the Beavers were unable to beat any four-year varsity teams in baseball, and they didn't win a SCIAC game between the 1983 season and the 2017 season. Men's soccer? The Beavers have gone 11-159-4 (.075) overall and 5-138-4 (.048) in SCIAC play over the past ten seasons. It's largely the same on the women's side, although to their credit women's volleyball coach Tom Gardner and women's basketball coach Bridgette Reyes have lifted the Beavers out of glorified-intramurals status to at least marginal success over the past three or four years. As of yet they've come nowhere near what Eslinger has accomplished with Caltech men's basketball over the past seven or eight seasons, but at least they're not getting steamrollered every time they take the floor in those two sports the way that they were before ... so kudos to those two coaches. But by and large in the grand sweep of SCIAC sports Caltech just can't keep up with anybody else in the conference, and if you asked Gray Fox or any of the other posters in the SCIAC room they'd tell you the same thing.

I did not have time to read this, unfortunately.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Sometimes correlation does indicate causation.

I live by that.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: WUPHF on May 12, 2022, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
You make it sound as though public schools are a black mark against getting into an elite college or university, but you and I both know that they aren't.

I am a public school graduate and I love public schools, but let me ask: if the valedictorians of Oak Park River Forest and Midwest Central apply for admission to Caltech and the decision is based entirely on academics, who gets in?  In that scenario, we could predict the answer nine times out of ten.  Probably ten out of ten, but maybe the committee remembers an alum from Manito and so they can vouch for the rigor of an otherwise unknown school.

Still not sure where you're going with this, since it appears that we're in agreement on this point.

Quote from: WUPHF on May 12, 2022, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Elite publics are very much a part of the mix at Caltech ... and at NESCAC schools, and at UAA schools such as your own. There's not really any marked difference between the makeup of the rosters of Caltech teams and the makeup of the rosters of those elite academic leagues as far as high school backgrounds go. The difference lies in who from those high schools are going to Caltech and playing sports, as opposed to a Wash U or an Amherst ... or, yes, an MIT (even though it's neither a UAA nor a NESCAC institution). It's a matter of athletic competence, and it's very much tied to the gatekeeping aspect behind Caltech matriculation that Ryan and I have talked about.

I wish I had time to address this as it lacks the proper nuance.

No idea what you mean by "the proper nuance."

Quote from: WUPHF on May 12, 2022, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:28:49 PM
Ryan's point about building classes stands.

Ryan's point about building the class was the philosophy of using criteria other than grades and boards to determine admission and diversify the experience of the student body.

And that's my point. If an applicant's athletic participation in and of itself -- let alone athletic achievement -- counts for nothing, then there is no "building the class."

Quote from: WUPHF on May 12, 2022, 03:08:06 PMI do not believe that Caltech will ask for four personal essays just to throw those in the shredder and focus entirely on academics, but if you have inside knowledge that this is the case, well...

This is exactly why I qualified my earlier point:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 12, 2022, 02:48:21 AMI'm not saying that the old stereotype of academicians looking down their noses at jocks is always necessarily the operating principle that drives the Caltech admissions process, but there's certainly no advantage gained whatsoever from having played a sport.

"Four personal essays" =/= citing one's three-point shooting percentage or one's being named to the All-County first team by the local paper. We're really getting into the weeds in terms of making suppositions about what is in those essays, but I think it's a logical hypothesis that a faculty committee could be impressed by a 17-year-old kid talking about the sense of personal responsibility and time management and appreciation of cooperative endeavor that he learned from participating on his high school basketball team ... and it's an equally logical hypothesis that a faculty committee would be turned off by what they perceive to be the braggadocio of some jock touting his handles, his silky shooting touch, and how many points he scored in a game against Crosstown High. You don't even need to be that professor of applied physics who was once the nerdy teenager who got stuffed into his locker or given an atomic wedgie by jocks to be turned off by something accentuated in a kid's essay that matters not one whit to the Caltech academic ethos.

I just don't see how the "four personal essays" are going to be a venue whereby a faculty committee at Caltech is going to be swayed by a teenager's basketball ability into accepting him for admission. And the stark evidence (which you didn't read) of Caltech's pathetic legacy in intercollegiate athletics indicates that, indeed, it's never really swayed anybody on that committee before.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


I'll just add, if you look at what Caltech says about their admissions requirements, there's some heavy math and science proficiencies, obviously, but they also stress english proficiency.  I'd imagine for a school like Caltech, they're going to have a pretty heavy non-native english speaking applicant pool and perhaps multiple essays help them judge how well a prospective student actually uses the language.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Gregory Sager

Incidentally, WUPHF, I think that we've done this board a solid by steering the conversation away from the gossip and contumely surrounding North Central administrators that had been the previous hot topic.

Airing dirty laundry is one thing; rubbing our faces in somebody else's dirty laundry for days at a time is quite another.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell