Conference changes

Started by hopefan, May 01, 2008, 11:25:46 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: CNU85 on January 07, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 18, 2019, 10:43:31 PM
Forgot to update the answer I got ... sorry for the delay.

Conference has to be four members to be a true conference in the eyes of the NCAA. I can't remember the ramifications, but I am quite sure the commissioner doesn't get a vote if they aren't at four. There could be other items, but I am not exactly sure as I haven't researched that part of it.

There was an article out in the Virginia Pilot which is interesting ... some quotes to take out of it that makes you wonder what the CAC has planned. I am not going to read into anything, but I will be back to my seemingly unending effort to ask those in the know: https://www.pilotonline.com/sports/vp-sp-cnu-capital-athletic-future-1218-20191217-avqntv3nsrc7neymrmxhsyvnwe-story.html

Interesting how detailed the story covered the issue. The ACAA model will only solve about a 3rd of the sponsored sports issue. If you look at the sports/teams in the ACAA, it doesn't cover all the bases. And a conference affiliation such as this only addresses the AQ situation. It doesn't resolve scheduling issues for some sports such as basketball once January rolls around.

I don't think the scheduling will be as significant considering how many schools are around the three remaining CAC schools - but their conference games would have to be isolated to February when finding a non-conference game will be impossible.

The problem with merging with the ACAA are two-fold (based on one another):
- The division is likely to require conferences to play a certain number of games during the regular season to be eligible as part of the AQ requirements. Giving an AQ out for just playing a conference tournament is something the division is not keen about what so ever.
- So if the top segment goes through, I cannot see an ACAA-CAC merged conference being able to get conference games during the season when it requires teams on the east coast and west coast to play one another - meaning travel.

While the ACAA seems like the CAC target, I am just not sure it can work out. There are six schools "available" (two are leaving next academic year for other conferences and the third already exists in a conference for basketball), but I just don't see how this works out for everyone. It very likely could depend on whether the division decides to put in the in-season conference play requirement (which I agree with, by the way).
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


I mean, the real way to solve the ACAA, non-playing conference thing is just to guarantee a Pool B bid every year.  The ratio is what causes the problem.  The ACAA was only started because a lot of sports didn't have any access for independent schools.  A non-playing conference is really just making up for the Pool B bid.  I'm sure those schools would rather not have an organization and dues and all that if they had some other access to the tournament.

Honestly, if CNU is involved, some of those schools would have a better chance in Pool B than trying to compete with CNU for AQs every year.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 07, 2020, 03:04:29 PM

I mean, the real way to solve the ACAA, non-playing conference thing is just to guarantee a Pool B bid every year.  The ratio is what causes the problem.  The ACAA was only started because a lot of sports didn't have any access for independent schools.  A non-playing conference is really just making up for the Pool B bid.  I'm sure those schools would rather not have an organization and dues and all that if they had some other access to the tournament.

Honestly, if CNU is involved, some of those schools would have a better chance in Pool B than trying to compete with CNU for AQs every year.

I don't think you can guarantee the Pool B, though. If there were only four or five schools with no access ... are we seriously just going to give a bid to one of them because it's guaranteed. The ratio makes sure that those schools have the same access ability as the rest of the division. The ratio is the same to the amount of bids. And now one could argue as the division has grown, it is harder because there are more teams than tournament slots - so guaranteeing a Pool B basically means those schools (four or five in my scenario) have to do next to nothing and have an easier chance at a Tournament berth.

I don't think that will fly.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

CNU85

Overall, as an ardent CNU fan, I just don't see any real solutions. I see a lot of patchwork options, which in the world of D3 sports, would change almost every year given CNU that sponsors over 20 sports. Something would certainly change every year.

The reasons have been mentioned:

1. CNU is public. So ODAC and USA South are not options.
2. Geography - Once ODAC and USA South are eliminated as possibilities, the next closest conferences are travel burdens to schools in those conferences. Why would they want to add CNU/UMW/SU and have significant travel (esp in the case of CNU)?

I've heard other people talk about D2 or D1. Also not options at the moment. Current CNU President says no.

Another option would be to remain an independent and rely on on field/court success to get into the post season.

I just don't see a long term conference option. But, I'm not in discussions on a daily basis as are the folks who are trying to resolve the issue. There are 3 schools involved -- so at least 3 AD's, 3 presidents plus the CAC commissioner and staff are all working this and have been for some time. Let's see what happens later this month when the NCAA convention takes place.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: CNU85 on January 07, 2020, 03:35:28 PM
Overall, as an ardent CNU fan, I just don't see any real solutions. I see a lot of patchwork options, which in the world of D3 sports, would change almost every year given CNU that sponsors over 20 sports. Something would certainly change every year.

The reasons have been mentioned:

1. CNU is public. So ODAC and USA South are not options.
2. Geography - Once ODAC and USA South are eliminated as possibilities, the next closest conferences are travel burdens to schools in those conferences. Why would they want to add CNU/UMW/SU and have significant travel (esp in the case of CNU)?

I've heard other people talk about D2 or D1. Also not options at the moment. Current CNU President says no.

Another option would be to remain an independent and rely on on field/court success to get into the post season.

I just don't see a long term conference option. But, I'm not in discussions on a daily basis as are the folks who are trying to resolve the issue. There are 3 schools involved -- so at least 3 AD's, 3 presidents plus the CAC commissioner and staff are all working this and have been for some time. Let's see what happens later this month when the NCAA convention takes place.

Well let's correct a few things here...

First, CNU was in the USA South, so the being a public school doesn't mean the USAS is not an option.

Second, travel is a consideration, but more and more conferences are actually spreading themselves out ... so travel is in the cards and could be overcome, but yes it has to be a consideration.

D2 and D1 is not an option for any of these three schools. I know that for a fact especially since D2 is basically no-man's land at least for Salisbury - and thus I group in the other two.

Independent is a bad idea. You want to keep the conference name at the very least. Yes, three pulls the CAC below the line of having most of their status, but going independent gives the three schools even less of a voice in the NCAA. Not to mention the fact, at least you have games on your schedule taken care of even if they are as few as 4 (in most sports). Also, going independent removes student-athlete awards, coach awards, conference titles, etc. from the conversation - none of those are good ideas in the grand scheme of things.

Here is what they could do ... there are institutions like Regent who are looking to come into DIII. They can become a transition conference. Schools who are either entering DIII or can't get into conferences they want to get into can join the CAC for a few years and transition where they want. It allows the conference to remain and have conference games and even a better chance to continue growing - sometimes you have to start small to grow back to being big.

This is one of the rare conferences (even at a minimum of three) where Pool B is going to be a lock for them. It is essentially the Pool A for them and they will have it to themselves basically every year in every sport. So, this is one of the rare occasions where I don't fret about the Pool A necessarily for these teams. Yes, things are going to be hard and it can't last forever (more than maybe five years), but it isn't something that needs a St. Mary's type of overreaction - grabbing the first life raft that comes your way when CLEARLY the life raft's options were NOT thought through.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Pat Coleman

Not to contradict Dave, but just because CNU was in the USA South previously doesn't mean they would be welcomed back. First off, conferences can always change bylaws, as we have been reminded in the past year, and even without a bylaw change, there's plenty of reason to think the USAC doesn't want CNU back.

Now, that having been said, the USAC has changed quite a bit since CNU left, and who knows who wants what among its membership. Never know.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 08, 2020, 12:37:01 PMHere is what they could do ... there are institutions like Regent who are looking to come into DIII. They can become a transition conference. Schools who are either entering DIII or can't get into conferences they want to get into can join the CAC for a few years and transition where they want. It allows the conference to remain and have conference games and even a better chance to continue growing - sometimes you have to start small to grow back to being big.

I still think that a few strategic phone calls to specific undersized state-school campuses in West Virginia should be in order. You never know if those schools might be receptive to what would appear to be a logical move to D3 unless you ask.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2020, 01:18:42 PM
Not to contradict Dave, but just because CNU was in the USA South previously doesn't mean they would be welcomed back. First off, conferences can always change bylaws, as we have been reminded in the past year, and even without a bylaw change, there's plenty of reason to think the USAC doesn't want CNU back.

Now, that having been said, the USAC has changed quite a bit since CNU left, and who knows who wants what among its membership. Never know.

I wasn't saying CNU would be welcomed back in the least. I was simply saying that because CNU was a public that USAS was out isn't exactly correct. You know full well I don't think the USAS would welcome CNU back because most were glad to see CNU leave.

Now with that said, I do get the sense there are USAS members that are not affraid of CNU. That is the part that is intriguing to me and why there could be some schools in the USAS that are probably done with it's size (and those who keep thinking they can get two AQs SMH) and looking for another option. The CAC could fit that bill no matter what the travel is like. But that is pure speculation.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 01:48:11 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 08, 2020, 12:37:01 PMHere is what they could do ... there are institutions like Regent who are looking to come into DIII. They can become a transition conference. Schools who are either entering DIII or can't get into conferences they want to get into can join the CAC for a few years and transition where they want. It allows the conference to remain and have conference games and even a better chance to continue growing - sometimes you have to start small to grow back to being big.

I still think that a few strategic phone calls to specific undersized state-school campuses in West Virginia should be in order. You never know if those schools might be receptive to what would appear to be a logical move to D3 unless you ask.

This is another angle that could be interesting ... and with legislation in front of Division III to shorten the transition period from four to three years ... this could be a far more realistic venture than people realize. I haven't taken it seriously until I read the legislation, either. There are a lot of WV schools that I don't understand their affiliation. I think DIII would make a lot of sense and the CAC is a perfect place to at least transition if not fit in long-term.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Smitty Oom

All I want is a post-season tourney of all the ACAA teams. Doesn't even need to be for an AQ, just think it would be quirky and fun. "Centrally" locate it at the Palestra and have Dave call all the games, what a treat that would be!

FCGrizzliesGrad

Quote from: Smitty Oom on January 08, 2020, 02:13:55 PM
All I want is a post-season tourney of all the ACAA teams. Doesn't even need to be for an AQ, just think it would be quirky and fun. "Centrally" locate it at the Palestra and have Dave call all the games, what a treat that would be!
I thought the ACAA did a 4 team conference tournament
Football picker extraordinaire
5 titles: CCIW, NJAC
4x: ODAC:S
3x: ASC, IIAC, MIAA:S, NACC:S, NCAC, OAC:P, Nat'l
2x: HCAC, MIAC, ODAC:P, WIAC
1x: Bracket, OAC:S

Basketball
2013 WIAC Pickem Co-champ
2015 Nat'l Pickem
2017: LEC and MIAA Pickem
2019: MIAA and WIAC Pickem

Soccer
2023: Mens Pickem

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Smitty Oom on January 08, 2020, 02:13:55 PM
All I want is a post-season tourney of all the ACAA teams. Doesn't even need to be for an AQ, just think it would be quirky and fun. "Centrally" locate it at the Palestra and have Dave call all the games, what a treat that would be!

Ha ... for who would that treat be for? Unless CNU and Salisbury are in it, I am not sure how much of a treat it would be for me ... because I am also quite sure the pay wouldn't be that good. :)

As indicated, they do have a four-team tournament based on some ranking (I can't remember which).

But ... there was a time when the old GSAC and another group (maybe the ACAA) had the same kind of four-team tournament and one or more of those who qualified decided not to attend. Costs was part of the reasoning. If schools can't come to the tournament, playing conference games is a bust (to my earlier point).
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Smitty Oom

#837
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 08, 2020, 02:21:01 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on January 08, 2020, 02:13:55 PM
All I want is a post-season tourney of all the ACAA teams. Doesn't even need to be for an AQ, just think it would be quirky and fun. "Centrally" locate it at the Palestra and have Dave call all the games, what a treat that would be!

Ha ... for who would that treat be for? Unless CNU and Salisbury are in it, I am not sure how much of a treat it would be for me ... because I am also quite sure the pay wouldn't be that good. :)

As indicated, they do have a four-team tournament based on some ranking (I can't remember which).

But ... there was a time when the old GSAC and another group (maybe the ACAA) had the same kind of four-team tournament and one or more of those who qualified decided not to attend. Costs was part of the reasoning. If schools can't come to the tournament, playing conference games is a bust (to my earlier point).

Looking back, it appears that Thomas Moore played Alfred in one semi-final and in the other Suny Dehli played Pine Manor! I will go looking for how they rank/qualify the teams.

EDIT: A wikipedia page exists for the ACAA tournament... how embarrasing for me not to know this.

Baldini

I believe it was on the women's side that had schools turn down the ACAA tourney invites. Mount Mary and SUNY Delhi finished 3rd and 4th in the standing and neither played in the tournament. 

Inkblot

Quote from: Smitty Oom on January 08, 2020, 03:26:26 PM
Looking back, it appears that Thomas Moore played Alfred in one semi-final and in the other Suny Dehli played Pine Manor! I will go looking for how they rank/qualify the teams.

EDIT: A wikipedia page exists for the ACAA tournament... how embarrasing for me not to know this.

Wikipedia's coverage of Division III basketball leaves a lot to be desired. I don't think any of the articles mention the pool system.

Granted, I don't know how many of the football articles mentioned the pool system before I added those parts in.
Moderator of /r/CFB. https://inkblotsports.com. Twitter: @InkblotSports.