2012 Division III NCAA Tournament

Started by fritzdis, February 26, 2012, 02:27:29 AM

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David Collinge

Quote from: smedindy on March 09, 2012, 11:02:39 PM
If Wooster fans show up, they'll root for IWU.
That is, if Wooster fans show up, the reason they do will be to root against Wittenberg. Even with very respectable showings from both Witt and IWU in the stands (NCC was well-represented too), tonight's crowd won't be very large.

There was a lot of chatter before last night's game about which team the Wooster fans would support in the first game (archrival Wittenberg vs. North Central with beloved Wooster icon Ian Franks as an assistant coach), but the reality was that the Wooster fans mostly sat quietly throughout the game. That's what Wooster fans do; they show up in huge numbers and sit quietly. They really didn't get into the second game until the last 10 minutes or so, when the Scots were chipping away at IWU's game-long lead.

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: fritzdis on March 10, 2012, 02:38:07 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 10, 2012, 12:45:18 AM
For the Amherst game, they really seemed to get the worst of it.  Getting touch fouls called on them on defense and then getting crushed with no calls on offense.  They probably got the better of things with guard play, but so much of the game was played inside, it hurt them quite a bit.  Toomey was getting clobbered and rarely got a call.

I know I'm biased, but I can't agree with the bolded statement after rewatching the game (along with what I saw live last night).  On 2 occasions, Toomey clearly kicked his leg out after taking a three, drawing contact and going down awkwardly.  It would have been terrible if he had gotten those calls.  Another attempt from three was probably a foul, but Toomey definitely leaned into Milligan after getting him in the air.  On drives, he created a lot of contact by dipping his shoulder a bit.  Perhaps he should have gotten an additional call or two, but to say he was getting clobbered is a huge overstatement.

That said, the touch fouls on Amherst early in the second half were not consistent with the rest of the game.  Getting the third fouls on Workman and Barrise in the first 3 minutes had an impact on the game.

He did draw a lot of contact and had more trouble than most adjusting to the way refs were calling the game - that's not to say he didn't actually deserve some more calls from time to time.  Obviously his style leads the refs to be more lax in calling stuff and I guess that was a chance he took and lost.

As for drawing contact when the guy is in the air, I'm not a huge fan, but if you take a shot and it's hindered by the guy in the air, that has to be a foul, as much as the traditionalist in all of us doesn't like it.  Perhaps it was more egregious because Toomey got called for the same foul five seconds later on the other end.  That was what made me most upset.  I don't mind letting it go, but they can't let it go on one end and call the same thing five seconds later on the other, just because one seemed more intentional than the other.
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amh63

#123
Hoops Fan...Glad I got a chance of meeting you.  Posted support to your posts on the NEWMAC board.  With regards to the F&M fans, I had some similar experience.  Came to the first game near half time.  Since I am also a graduate of MIT, I decided to sit in the MIT section while awaiting the end of the game.  As I left the section at the end of the game, I noticed a number of the seats had "reserved seat" posters on them.  As I went over to the "Amherst" section behind the Amherst bench, I bumped into several fans that didn't want to move away as I was climbing up to greet some old Amherst fans.  I looked at the fans blocking me somewhat and they were holding F&M signs that had the words "protesting" on them.  I asked them what they were protesting....never really got a straight answer and didn't give it a 2nd thought then.  I sat with my friends, surrounded by Dips fans....saw other Amherst supporters near by.  Wondered a bit if there was even a section allowed for Amherst....did see one in the corner area...Strange hosting.
Now to the questioning of refs.  Hugenerd and I both noticed the change in the calls during the 2nd half of the MIT game.
To the Dips supporters, etc.....I have the following comments. In the high tension games with two rated good teams, tough calls occur.  In such games, I prefer that the games should be decided primarily by the players and the play on the floor....that the refs NOT impose themselves...or be a factor.  It it to be called tight...so be it....but it should be consistent.  Then the coaches and players can make adjustments and the ones that can adjust the best will win,IMO.  When the calls become inconsistent during the game, between halves and at seemly critical times, then I need to point out the calls by refs that, I believe are under stress and maybe over their heads at such championship level games.
Two examples...Amherst played the #4 ranked team, Middlebury, to decide the conference championship.
In the title game, at Amherst, Middlebury down two pts, tied the game with less than a minute to play.  Midd.'s star guard drove up to make a layup....Amherst's big center stood in his way with his hands straight up.  The guard drove up and into the center as he shot the ball.  To me, I thought it was a foul by the guard.  The ball went in.  NO call by the refs....the best call to make.
In the F&M game, late in the 2nd half, a Dips player drove up to make a shot.  Amherst big center stood in his way, arms raised straight up. The Dips player initiated the contact....the layup missed and a foul was called on Amherst.  The Amherst starting center had to sit down because of the foul.  The Dips player went to the foul line.  Best call should have been NO call.
2nd example.....Late in the 2nd half...Toomey and Milligan, I believe, were facing each other....Toomey goes up for a shot, 3-point shot. I believe some Dips fan acknowledged that Toomey may have been fouled but he was leaning into Milliagan.  NO call.  If a call had been made....Toomey who is a 90 plus foul shooter would have made 3 points in a tight game at the time.  It could have changed the way Amherst played the last two minutes of the game.  Better yet....Milligan who played a great game...had 4 fouls.  If a foul was called and it was the 5th...then The Dips' star would not have been around to score 30 points.
Quality refs are needed in championship type games so fans like me...partisan or not....should not have to question calls.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quick thought on fouls where the offensive player leans into the defender... it shouldn't be called even if the defender is in the air. If the defender leaps in the air straight up and down and doesn't initiate the contact, why should the offensive player be allowed to jump into that player and a foul be called? Further more if the shooter makes an effort to alter his normal shooting style to make the contact... again no call.

Toomey did this to Milligan and others several times and I appreciated it wasn't called that often. Milligan did the same a few times and only one that glares out to me was an off balance shot he took against MIT in the lane (which he made) that seemed it should have been a no call.

Just because contact is made, doesn't mean it is the defender's fault or foul. This is also where offensive charge calls should become more prevalent.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 11, 2012, 04:46:27 PM
Quick thought on fouls where the offensive player leans into the defender... it shouldn't be called even if the defender is in the air. If the defender leaps in the air straight up and down and doesn't initiate the contact, why should the offensive player be allowed to jump into that player and a foul be called? Further more if the shooter makes an effort to alter his normal shooting style to make the contact... again no call.

Toomey did this to Milligan and others several times and I appreciated it wasn't called that often. Milligan did the same a few times and only one that glares out to me was an off balance shot he took against MIT in the lane (which he made) that seemed it should have been a no call.

Just because contact is made, doesn't mean it is the defender's fault or foul. This is also where offensive charge calls should become more prevalent.


I agree.  I don't like it called often and certainly Toomey's penchant for leaning in cost him some calls he deserved.  That's the price you pay.  He should have realized early on they weren't giving him those and adjusted.  Hopefully his big lesson from this tournament is about adjustments - he certainly showed he was an underclassman in that area, even if his physical skills are amazing.  I just can't imagine how good he'll be as a senior if he keeps improving.
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fritzdis

Quote from: amh63 on March 11, 2012, 03:41:22 PM
In the F&M game, late in the 2nd half, a Dips player drove up to make a shot.  Amherst big center stood in his way, arms raised straight up. The Dips player initiated the contact....the layup missed and a foul was called on Amherst.  The Amherst starting center had to sit down because of the foul.  The Dips player went to the foul line.  Best call should have been NO call.
2nd example.....Late in the 2nd half...Toomey and Milligan, I believe, were facing each other....Toomey goes up for a shot, 3-point shot. I believe some Dips fan acknowledged that Toomey may have been fouled but he was leaning into Milliagan.  NO call.  If a call had been made....Toomey who is a 90 plus foul shooter would have made 3 points in a tight game at the time.  It could have changed the way Amherst played the last two minutes of the game.  Better yet....Milligan who played a great game...had 4 fouls.  If a foul was called and it was the 5th...then The Dips' star would not have been around to score 30 points.
Quality refs are needed in championship type games so fans like me...partisan or not....should not have to question calls.

A stream of the game is available online at http://client.stretchinternet.com/client/fandm.portal# (under the On Demand tab).  I believe the plays you're referring to occurred at 4:37 remaining for the foul on Kaasila and 9:45 remaining for the Toomey 3-point shot.  On the Kaasila foul, his right arm isn't even close to straight up and hits Milligan in the head.  On the 3-point shot, Toomey kicks out his right leg as Milligan goes by him, creating the contact.  That play should never be a defensive foul, as far as I'm concerned.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Toomey clearly grew up watching Reggie Miller! :)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 11, 2012, 10:45:11 PM
Toomey clearly grew up watching Reggie Miller!

Sadly, probably not.  I grew up watching Reggie Miller and I'm a decade older than Toomey.  He probably has very few memories, if any, of Reggie playing.
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onetinsoldier

Quote from: pjunito on February 29, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
Tournament Odds


https://sites.google.com/site/d3basketballindex/tourney-odds

Hey pjunito

this site was a great help in filling out the bracket.  Amazing fun comparing original odds to what actually happened.  do you know if one is/was done for the D1 tournament as well?
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On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Hugenerd

Quote from: onetinsoldier on March 12, 2012, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: pjunito on February 29, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
Tournament Odds


https://sites.google.com/site/d3basketballindex/tourney-odds

Hey pjunito

this site was a great help in filling out the bracket.  Amazing fun comparing original odds to what actually happened.  do you know if one is/was done for the D1 tournament as well?

Those rankings were done by a poster on these boards, augie_superfan, so you could email him directly to ask him.

mactitan

Sorry to break in, but I thought people here might like this.  It's my 2012 Mascot Bracket.  The entire NCAA DI tournament picked on the basis of "Which mascot would win in a fight?"  http://wp.me/plb5b-w0.  Taken into the DIII Final Four, I would say that the Titans would have a good chance to beat the Cavaliers and I think a War Hawk would take out an unarmed Engineer, but then be easily dispatched by the Titan.
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Hugenerd

Quote from: mactitan on March 12, 2012, 03:23:30 PM
Sorry to break in, but I thought people here might like this.  It's my 2012 Mascot Bracket.  The entire NCAA DI tournament picked on the basis of "Which mascot would win in a fight?"  http://wp.me/plb5b-w0.  Taken into the DIII Final Four, I would say that the Titans would have a good chance to beat the Cavaliers and I think a War Hawk would take out an unarmed Engineer, but then be easily dispatched by the Titan.

Engineers are rarely unarmed at MIT!  Have you seen the size of my calculator?

mass_d3fan

There will always be questionable calls.  The very best we can all hope for is that the same play is called the same way from the first possesion of the game to the last.  While that it is indeed the goal, I am not holding my breath I will ever see it.  I watched D1 games during "Championship Week" last week and saw the same kinds of inconsistient calls.   A guy drives to the basket, gets hacked, no call, 2 minutes later, barely any contact on a similar drive and its a 3pt play.

I forget what game it was yesterday, But a big went out on the perimeter to set a screen for the player with the ball - obvious illegal screen right in front of the official - No Call from him at all.  Adifferent official fromthe other side of the floor came running over and made the call.   Now this was a D1 conference championship game and we still this kind of stuff.

The whole leg kick thing could have been stopped years ago if the officals and governing bodies had any stones at all.  The offense already was being given large advantages when it came to contact and initating contact.  There was no need to give approval to another 'move' designed solely to draw a call.
 

augie_superfan

Quote from: Hugenerd on March 12, 2012, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: onetinsoldier on March 12, 2012, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: pjunito on February 29, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
Tournament Odds


https://sites.google.com/site/d3basketballindex/tourney-odds

Hey pjunito

this site was a great help in filling out the bracket.  Amazing fun comparing original odds to what actually happened.  do you know if one is/was done for the D1 tournament as well?

Those rankings were done by a poster on these boards, augie_superfan, so you could email him directly to ask him.

Ken Pomeroy has his tournament odds up....http://kenpom.com/blog/