WBB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

Started by charge, October 30, 2004, 11:22:33 AM

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RogK

RHIT did very well avoiding foul trouble, with only 12 total and no individual over 3. And they were able to control the tempo, the game having maybe a slightly above average number of possessions, but not what St Mary of the Woods is accustomed to.

Jester1390

I talked to a coach after the game because I wanted to know that when the girls didn't attack when they had numbers was that by design or were they being timid.  It was the plan to control pace of game. Unless it was clear cut to the basket slow it down and get it back out.  I didnt agree all the time but that's why I'm the fan.  Coach knows what's he is doing. I'm guessing for st Mary it might get tougher as other coaches might follow RHIT game plan

Enginerd

#242
Quote from: Jester1390 on December 05, 2019, 02:01:27 AM
I talked to a coach after the game because I wanted to know that when the girls didn't attack when they had numbers was that by design or were they being timid.  It was the plan to control pace of game. Unless it was clear cut to the basket slow it down and get it back out.  I didnt agree all the time but that's why I'm the fan.  Coach knows what's he is doing. I'm guessing for st Mary it might get tougher as other coaches might follow RHIT game plan

I wouldn't count on it - all I see these days are teams taking wild, early (in the shot clock) shots and not even bothering to try to control the game's tempo. Ask any "system" coach and I'll bet they would, to a person, tell you that the teams they fear the most are the ones that are disciplined enough to not allow the "System" to control the tempo. If you control the tempo, you destroy the System. Too bad the RHIT/North Central game from 2016 isn't archived anywhere. They were a LOT better than this SMWC team and RHIT literally put on a clinic on how to destroy the System. Now, having said that, it would be pretty interesting indeed to see a very talented and well-coached team like IWU run the System. Most of the teams I've ever seen run the System were just OK in the talent department.

FCGrizzliesGrad

Quote from: Enginerd on December 05, 2019, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: Jester1390 on December 05, 2019, 02:01:27 AM
I talked to a coach after the game because I wanted to know that when the girls didn't attack when they had numbers was that by design or were they being timid.  It was the plan to control pace of game. Unless it was clear cut to the basket slow it down and get it back out.  I didnt agree all the time but that's why I'm the fan.  Coach knows what's he is doing. I'm guessing for st Mary it might get tougher as other coaches might follow RHIT game plan

I wouldn't count on it - all I see these days are teams taking wild, early (in the shot clock) shots and not even bothering to try to control the game's tempo. Ask any "system" coach and I'll bet they would, to a person, tell you that the teams they fear the most are the ones that are disciplined enough to not allow the "System" to control the tempo. If you control the tempo, you destroy the System. Too bad the RHIT/North Central game from 2016 isn't archived anywhere. They were a LOT better than this SMWC team and RHIT literally put on a clinic on how to destroy the System. Now, having said that, it would be pretty interesting indeed to see a very talented and well-coached team like IWU run the System. Most of the teams I've ever seen run the System were just OK in the talent department.
St Norbert men are pretty successful against Grinnell. They can consistently hold them under 100 points.
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Jester1390

Just a cool note from game yesterday   My daughter told me during the game the girl she was guarding who was one of there top 3 Pointer shooters who went 1 for 10 in the game.  Her teammate said why are you not shooting. She replied and looked at Kahlan said how the hell can i shoot she's fricking 6 ft tall and has her hand in my face all the time. 

Kahlan said it was awsome to hear took a lot pride in that. Only thing better is when a coach yells will someone please get the shooter

Jester1390

Also a shout out to both schools student bodies.  Attendance for the game 650

Baldini

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 05, 2019, 12:15:07 PM
Quote from: Enginerd on December 05, 2019, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: Jester1390 on December 05, 2019, 02:01:27 AM
I talked to a coach after the game because I wanted to know that when the girls didn't attack when they had numbers was that by design or were they being timid.  It was the plan to control pace of game. Unless it was clear cut to the basket slow it down and get it back out.  I didnt agree all the time but that's why I'm the fan.  Coach knows what's he is doing. I'm guessing for st Mary it might get tougher as other coaches might follow RHIT game plan

I wouldn't count on it - all I see these days are teams taking wild, early (in the shot clock) shots and not even bothering to try to control the game's tempo. Ask any "system" coach and I'll bet they would, to a person, tell you that the teams they fear the most are the ones that are disciplined enough to not allow the "System" to control the tempo. If you control the tempo, you destroy the System. Too bad the RHIT/North Central game from 2016 isn't archived anywhere. They were a LOT better than this SMWC team and RHIT literally put on a clinic on how to destroy the System. Now, having said that, it would be pretty interesting indeed to see a very talented and well-coached team like IWU run the System. Most of the teams I've ever seen run the System were just OK in the talent department.
St Norbert men are pretty successful against Grinnell. They can consistently hold them under 100 points.

I'll be Captain Obvious here.

Whether it is running the 'system' or playing against it, it comes down to talent to win with or defeat it. St. Norbert breaks and basically go's 4 corners to eliminate trapping opportunities and slow the game. That takes extra ballhandlers and not every team has those. I went and watched the Greenville men when they came to play Transy in their season opener a few years ago and Transy had finishers at the rim and attacked, they turned it in a layup/dunk drill and routed Greenville 130-98. There is more than one way to beat it, but it still takes the talent to do it. 

I say this and it is in no way meant to be a dig at RHIT, but St. Mary-Wood is not very talented or good at running the 'system'. I seen them play in Midway and they were not very good at pressing or getting their 3's. Midway beat them fairly easily 89-67. Players make offensive and defensive systems work, no systems work without the talent to carry them out. 

Enginerd

Quote from: Baldini on December 05, 2019, 01:42:23 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 05, 2019, 12:15:07 PM
Quote from: Enginerd on December 05, 2019, 07:08:25 AM
Quote from: Jester1390 on December 05, 2019, 02:01:27 AM
I talked to a coach after the game because I wanted to know that when the girls didn't attack when they had numbers was that by design or were they being timid.  It was the plan to control pace of game. Unless it was clear cut to the basket slow it down and get it back out.  I didnt agree all the time but that's why I'm the fan.  Coach knows what's he is doing. I'm guessing for st Mary it might get tougher as other coaches might follow RHIT game plan

I wouldn't count on it - all I see these days are teams taking wild, early (in the shot clock) shots and not even bothering to try to control the game's tempo. Ask any "system" coach and I'll bet they would, to a person, tell you that the teams they fear the most are the ones that are disciplined enough to not allow the "System" to control the tempo. If you control the tempo, you destroy the System. Too bad the RHIT/North Central game from 2016 isn't archived anywhere. They were a LOT better than this SMWC team and RHIT literally put on a clinic on how to destroy the System. Now, having said that, it would be pretty interesting indeed to see a very talented and well-coached team like IWU run the System. Most of the teams I've ever seen run the System were just OK in the talent department.
St Norbert men are pretty successful against Grinnell. They can consistently hold them under 100 points.

I'll be Captain Obvious here.

Whether it is running the 'system' or playing against it, it comes down to talent to win with or defeat it. St. Norbert breaks and basically go's 4 corners to eliminate trapping opportunities and slow the game. That takes extra ballhandlers and not every team has those. I went and watched the Greenville men when they came to play Transy in their season opener a few years ago and Transy had finishers at the rim and attacked, they turned it in a layup/dunk drill and routed Greenville 130-98. There is more than one way to beat it, but it still takes the talent to do it. 

I say this and it is in no way meant to be a dig at RHIT, but St. Mary-Wood is not very talented or good at running the 'system'. I seen them play in Midway and they were not very good at pressing or getting their 3's. Midway beat them fairly easily 89-67. Players make offensive and defensive systems work, no systems work without the talent to carry them out.

I do not disagree with anything you said- but the 61 points RHIT allowed will be the lowest total all season for SMWC. - and all but three of their ten opponents are NAIA schools with scholarships, to some degree. RHIT held the 2016-17 North Central team to 49 points, the lowest total of their "system" years by far and their lowest scoring output that season by 16 points. THAT team was 14-12 overall and 8-8 in the CCIW, with a win over IL. Wesleyan on the road at the Shirk Center. Whether a Grinnell System team has talent or not, it is vulnerable to an opponent that is disciplined enough to spread the floor, be patient, and control the tempo of the game.
RHIT is facing an uphill climb this season due to their numbers and youth, but they looked awfully good defensively for longer stretches and held SMWC scoreless for almost 7 minutes in the 2nd half. BY the end of the season (assuming 8-9 healthy bodies), they will be a team nobody wants to have to play, win or lose.

Roundball999

I also remember Hope going to North Central during the system years, maybe around '13-'14, and destroying them 126-56.  Hope doesn't play the system, or typically play anyone that employs the system, but decided to run with them rather than slow it down.  The result was all about talent disparity and also coaching.  I don't think you have to slow it down against a system team if you are coached well.  You can run and still have discipline.  But having more talent helps :)

Enginerd

#249
Quote from: Roundball999 on December 06, 2019, 06:18:40 AM
I also remember Hope going to North Central during the system years, maybe around '13-'14, and destroying them 126-56.  Hope doesn't play the system, or typically play anyone that employs the system, but decided to run with them rather than slow it down.  The result was all about talent disparity and also coaching.  I don't think you have to slow it down against a system team if you are coached well.  You can run and still have discipline.  But having more talent helps :)

Agreed - but there is a large disparity between a typical Hope team and an RHIT team talent-wise.

RHIT won't ever overwhelm you with talent - when they win they have a handful of good (not great) athletes whom are also extremely tough-minded kids that have to depend on game-planning and defense to beat great (Hope) or unusual (System) teams. I've only seen Hope once, when they overcame RHIT by 3 at home a couple years ago - and they strike me as a team that takes advantage of transition when it's there, but are fairly disciplined in their shot-selection. The danger of playing a System team is forgetting whom you are for 40 minutes, running and playing at a pace you aren't accustomed to, and taking the kind of quick shots the System depends on opponents taking - that's where the coaching part kicks in.

My point is, Hope has the talent to beat anyone, by playing any way Coach Morehouse decides is best for his team. There is only one way for RHIT (or any other modestly-talented team) to do it.

Roundball999

#250
Quote from: Enginerd on December 06, 2019, 07:20:34 AM
Quote from: Roundball999 on December 06, 2019, 06:18:40 AM
I also remember Hope going to North Central during the system years, maybe around '13-'14, and destroying them 126-56.  Hope doesn't play the system, or typically play anyone that employs the system, but decided to run with them rather than slow it down.  The result was all about talent disparity and also coaching.  I don't think you have to slow it down against a system team if you are coached well.  You can run and still have discipline.  But having more talent helps :)

Agreed - but there is a large disparity between a typical Hope team and an RHIT team talent-wise.

RHIT won't ever overwhelm you with talent - when they win they have a handful of good (not great) athletes whom are also extremely tough-minded kids that have to depend on game-planning and defense to beat great (Hope) or unusual (System) teams. I've only seen Hope once, when they overcame RHIT by 3 at home a couple years ago - and they strike me as a team that takes advantage of transition when it's there, but are fairly disciplined in their shot-selection. The danger of playing a System team is forgetting whom you are for 40 minutes, running and playing at a pace you aren't accustomed to, and taking the kind of quick shots the System depends on opponents taking - that's where the coaching part kicks in.

My point is, Hope has the talent to beat anyone, by playing any way Coach Morehouse decides is best for his team. There is only one way for RHIT (or any other modestly-talented team) to do it.

Understood and agreed.  Hope is fortunate to have incredible community support (leads D3 in attendance every year) and a great facility, which surely helps get the talent.  Hope also has great academics but as an engineer myself, I understand that a somewhat focused academic program in a rigorous field like RHIT is going to greatly narrow the pool of potential athletes.  The toughness and discipline you mention was certainly on display in that game at Hope.

Even though he's well regarded, I sometimes think Coach Morehouse doesn't get quite the credit he deserves.  He gets talent but he also does a great job maximizing that talent IMO and his defensive scheme is magnificent I think.  Takes a couple years for the kids to learn it but it is the key to the team.  He's right up there at the top with Coach Gromacki from Amherst in career winning % and I think he's earned that.

Question: do you think when teams are essentially equally talented and equally well coached, the system team usually wins?  That would sort of imply the system is a superior way to play which I don't really buy.  I get the surprise/panic factor.  I've always felt that the system may somewhat improve your odds of beating a team with similar or inferior talent/coaching but would reduce your chances of beating a superior team.  Pure speculation on my part, but if there's anything to it that would mean the system style trends toward mediocrity.  I realize this is an old debate on these boards :)

Jester1390

#251
Here is the simple answer to your question iif it was what worked best every top team in men's basketball in D1 would run it

Engin will have one difference of opinion with you. The 7 freshman are very athletic and and strong for their age.  Also in shape conditioning was not a problem whatsoever in the game vs st Mary with only haveing 8 players.  I only saw it where you could see they were worn down was IWU game

I know Baldini commented Sait Mary not very good I wouldn't argue that but I would say how many teams on d3 could play all freshman and one senoir play against a style of basketball they have never seen.  Have the composure to stick to the coaching staffs instructions even when they were down 10 and not get sucked in  you all know I am biased but I think I have shown I'm pretty straightforward.  That win was big for RHIT.  It showed the players they can win.   St Mary brought their best game.  The players were posting before the game how they were going to beat rose. So there will be a lot of teams trying to get payback. Will see how many end up disappointed like saint mary

Jester1390

Grizz

What did you think of franklins win over Anderson I watched the game. I think that was considered a upset

FCGrizzliesGrad

Quote from: Jester1390 on December 06, 2019, 11:06:02 AM
Grizz

What did you think of franklins win over Anderson I watched the game. I think that was considered a upset
Franklin didn't play Anderson, they played Hanover and lost. Did you mean Defiance?
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Jester1390

Getting my teams mixed up your correct was thinking of defiance