Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 02:03:53 AM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 02:03:53 AM
uh-oh -
Arseneault vs. Westhead?
jeff p vs. Sager?
Us mice are seeking shelter!!
In the great tradition of war, I shall return to shoot the wounded and suck-up to the victor!
Well, actually, cynical contrarian that I am, I'll probably end up doing the opposite.
Oh, what the hell - go at it, and who knows what I'll do?!! (I obviously don't!)
(Message edited by cabonney on March 24, 2005)
Arseneault vs. Westhead?
jeff p vs. Sager?
Us mice are seeking shelter!!
In the great tradition of war, I shall return to shoot the wounded and suck-up to the victor!
Well, actually, cynical contrarian that I am, I'll probably end up doing the opposite.
Oh, what the hell - go at it, and who knows what I'll do?!! (I obviously don't!)
(Message edited by cabonney on March 24, 2005)
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:06:04 AM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:06:04 AM
God, I wish we could have these discussions in person. Somewhere in the printed word I am fumbling around again. I just seem not to make myself clear. I haven't said anything different tonight than I have said all year long! I am an admittedly one issue poster. I have learned a bunch in the last few years (by osmosis mostly) but my focus will always by on Grinnell Basketball. Your overall knowledge about d3 ball overwhelms me, but I have no desire to match it. I've written all my life, made a living from it at times, and still don't much care for the unedited post to post method we are forced to use on sites like this. If my style causes confusion, I'm sorry. I have never felt so completely misunderstood-at least not since Miranda broke my heart 35 years ago. I don't know any other way to put my thoughts down than the way I have. I'm gonna give up tonight, but I think this has really gotten a bit silly.
You should have read Gregory Corso and the beat poets discussion of the Sonnet over the years. As in basketball, there are many different ways to approach the same subject.
Foghat was to music what Princeton is to basketball. It works on a few levels but who wants to suffer through it?
You should have read Gregory Corso and the beat poets discussion of the Sonnet over the years. As in basketball, there are many different ways to approach the same subject.
Foghat was to music what Princeton is to basketball. It works on a few levels but who wants to suffer through it?
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:13:00 AM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:13:00 AM
OK, How'd that repeat happen? I thought I was telling Cabonney that the Grinnell link won't appear in print, that i was telling Pat Coleman that my source wasn't who he thought it was, and that you guys were gonna have to send me to Guantanamo to get that source out of me. Then i get an error message and...oh well.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2005, 02:16:52 AM
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2005, 02:16:52 AM
You and I are very different people, Jeff, that's for sure. I never cared for Corso at all (Gregory or his brother Lee 
), and where poetry definitions are concerned I take my cue from Noah Webster rather than the Beats.
As to the language difficulties, no worries. I live to argue about stuff like this. Ask anyone on d3hoops.com. And my sympathies about Miranda ... very pretty name.
Foghat was to music what Princeton is to basketball. It works on a few levels but who wants to suffer through it.
This is actually one of the most elegant analogies I've ever read on this website, Jeff. Huzzah!
), and where poetry definitions are concerned I take my cue from Noah Webster rather than the Beats. As to the language difficulties, no worries. I live to argue about stuff like this. Ask anyone on d3hoops.com. And my sympathies about Miranda ... very pretty name.
Foghat was to music what Princeton is to basketball. It works on a few levels but who wants to suffer through it.
This is actually one of the most elegant analogies I've ever read on this website, Jeff. Huzzah!
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 09:45:04 AM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 09:45:04 AM
Noah was a great wordsmith as are the directors that continue his work. No arguement from me there. But you are right-we are completely different people. Even the folks who make the new word lists and redefine the old for each addition talk about how difficult it is to remain pointed when defining our language. I remember a story from several years back where a director made the following analogy: Once the word has been defined, people spend the next many years trying to break it from its confines. He went on to compare it to roping bulls and corraling them. Once the pen becomes full, some damn bull starts knocking down the fence much to the consternation of the cowboys involved. Perhaps the versions of dead verse vs free verse as espoused by the beats didn't catch on in the rigid world of Webster, but that doesn't mean the evolutionary process won't proceed. Kinda like basketball, huh?
Jeffp's horoscope for today (from creators syndicate):
"You like to play where the rules are a little loose or, better yet, completely undefined. You have enough imagination and moral structure to make up your own, right? Hopefully the others in the game feel the same."
I've been around long enough to know NOT to count on the latter, but still enjoy knocking down the fence.
Right now my biggest worry has nothing to do with our discussion of word useage or definition but rather with how to explain Miranda to my wife of... 34 and 5/6 years.
Jeffp's horoscope for today (from creators syndicate):
"You like to play where the rules are a little loose or, better yet, completely undefined. You have enough imagination and moral structure to make up your own, right? Hopefully the others in the game feel the same."
I've been around long enough to know NOT to count on the latter, but still enjoy knocking down the fence.
Right now my biggest worry has nothing to do with our discussion of word useage or definition but rather with how to explain Miranda to my wife of... 34 and 5/6 years.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 11:09:42 AM
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 11:09:42 AM
Tell her it all has to do with the Supreme Court ruling.
How dare you insinuate that Foghat was painful to listen to, you need to take it easy on that slow ride.
How dare you insinuate that Foghat was painful to listen to, you need to take it easy on that slow ride.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 12:07:15 PM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 12:07:15 PM
Mike-
I'm glad I have broad shoulders. Patricia still hasn't been able to see past 'em to read about M. M never did read me my rights, just the riot act.
Keep in mind that my taste runs toward the Grateful Dead...and any music loose and unstructured-just like my basketball.
I know, I know-Deadheads shouldn't get stoned...or cast stones or something like that.
I'm glad I have broad shoulders. Patricia still hasn't been able to see past 'em to read about M. M never did read me my rights, just the riot act.
Keep in mind that my taste runs toward the Grateful Dead...and any music loose and unstructured-just like my basketball.
I know, I know-Deadheads shouldn't get stoned...or cast stones or something like that.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 01:32:15 PM
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 01:32:15 PM
I like the Dead too. My band will get into a Dead song and twenty-five minutes later realize that we have other songs to rehearse also.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:34:25 PM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:34:25 PM
Cabonney and others-
I would like to thank Assistant Coach Tim Watkins from Redlands for allowing me to tell you that he is the source for my post from several days ago. Tim has also granted permission for me to include a great quote from one of his Emails. It is as follows:
"...we at Redlands are excited about the possibility of another team entering into the frenetic pace of system-like basketball...especially since they are only about 20 miles away from us.....Coach Smith and I have often wondered what it would be like to run the system with D1 type athletes."
Thanks, Tim!
I would like to thank Assistant Coach Tim Watkins from Redlands for allowing me to tell you that he is the source for my post from several days ago. Tim has also granted permission for me to include a great quote from one of his Emails. It is as follows:
"...we at Redlands are excited about the possibility of another team entering into the frenetic pace of system-like basketball...especially since they are only about 20 miles away from us.....Coach Smith and I have often wondered what it would be like to run the system with D1 type athletes."
Thanks, Tim!
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:57:39 PM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 02:57:39 PM
Mike and Gregory-
I was just told that Rod Price passed away on Tuesday after falling down a flight of stairs at his home. The slow ride just stopped, I guess.
I was just told that Rod Price passed away on Tuesday after falling down a flight of stairs at his home. The slow ride just stopped, I guess.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 04:51:23 PM
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 04:51:23 PM
Jeff or maybe it is just beginning.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 04:54:46 PM
Post by: Mike Dougherty aka Knightstalker on March 24, 2005, 04:54:46 PM
One of my favorite guitarists and one of my favorite singers have died in the last couple of weeks. Danny Joe Brown of Molly Hatchet died recently too. Distinctive voices have been silenced too soon.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 07:00:31 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 07:00:31 PM
jeff p,
I've not followed Riverside, but am pretty sure they've 'never' been on the national stage. Some questions:
Does this appear to be a 'desperation' try by a program that has never gotten anywhere anyway else, or a choice by a coach genuinely sold on the system? (And how much would that matter?)
Do you know if he plans to be closer to L-M or Grinnell?
Do you have any predictions on how it will work out (whether W-L or by other standards)?
I've not followed Riverside, but am pretty sure they've 'never' been on the national stage. Some questions:
Does this appear to be a 'desperation' try by a program that has never gotten anywhere anyway else, or a choice by a coach genuinely sold on the system? (And how much would that matter?)
Do you know if he plans to be closer to L-M or Grinnell?
Do you have any predictions on how it will work out (whether W-L or by other standards)?
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 09:38:47 PM
Post by: jeff p on March 24, 2005, 09:38:47 PM
Cabonney- at the risk of doing some of your homework for you (ah, I forget. You teach at the University level don't you? So you probably haven't had to do much of your own legwork lately ) I can say that Riverside's record appears to have remained fairly static for the last 5 seasons. They don't appear to be in desperate straights from my perspective ( shoot, some of those season records would have been grounds for huge celebration at Grinnell in the 80's). I have heard from other sourses today (sorry, they won't disclose) that UCR has been ambivalent about the program and has no real expectation of hitting the national spotlight. In other words, they appear to be great candidates for true system ball.
As for Spencer, if you really read the article ( ) you saw the quote from Bo Kimble, one of his more famous recruits. Bo says the D1 head position is long overdue for Spencer. His connection to LM is hard fact, and his commitment to rapid tempo ball is apparently well known. I can't really substantiate the connection to Grinnell style system ball without compromising several great friends. So choose to believe what you wish. My sense at this time is that URC would more closely resemble a highly tweaked LMU than a full system team. I would be happy to see that, but really hope he lets 'er fly.
I don't think LMU style is as complex as system ball, so I would see a shorter adjustment period if Spencer chooses to go more the LMC route. If he chooses even 60% of system dogma his players will take longer to gel resulting in more of the same in terms of record for a few years. Once in place, who knows what could happen. As Asst. Coach Watkins said in the quote (and I paraphrase) lots of folks wonder what happens when you put System ball in the hands of D1 athletes. If he recruits Gather and Kimble quality athletes, he could play about any style of basketball he chooses and have great success. I wish Coach Spencer well and look forward to seeing what we end up with at Riverside.
Ever Blurringly yours
Jeffp
) I can say that Riverside's record appears to have remained fairly static for the last 5 seasons. They don't appear to be in desperate straights from my perspective ( shoot, some of those season records would have been grounds for huge celebration at Grinnell in the 80's). I have heard from other sourses today (sorry, they won't disclose) that UCR has been ambivalent about the program and has no real expectation of hitting the national spotlight. In other words, they appear to be great candidates for true system ball. As for Spencer, if you really read the article (
) you saw the quote from Bo Kimble, one of his more famous recruits. Bo says the D1 head position is long overdue for Spencer. His connection to LM is hard fact, and his commitment to rapid tempo ball is apparently well known. I can't really substantiate the connection to Grinnell style system ball without compromising several great friends. So choose to believe what you wish. My sense at this time is that URC would more closely resemble a highly tweaked LMU than a full system team. I would be happy to see that, but really hope he lets 'er fly. I don't think LMU style is as complex as system ball, so I would see a shorter adjustment period if Spencer chooses to go more the LMC route. If he chooses even 60% of system dogma his players will take longer to gel resulting in more of the same in terms of record for a few years. Once in place, who knows what could happen. As Asst. Coach Watkins said in the quote (and I paraphrase) lots of folks wonder what happens when you put System ball in the hands of D1 athletes. If he recruits Gather and Kimble quality athletes, he could play about any style of basketball he chooses and have great success. I wish Coach Spencer well and look forward to seeing what we end up with at Riverside.
Ever Blurringly yours
Jeffp
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 09:51:48 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 24, 2005, 09:51:48 PM
jeff p,
Thanks!
In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer:
"The secret to success: plagiarize.
Let no one else's words evade your eyes.
So plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize ...
But, please, always to call it 'research'!"
Or, in the (not-so-immortal) words of cabonney - why expend the energy if you can get a grad student (or fellow poster!) to do it for you?!
Thanks!
In the immortal words of Tom Lehrer:
"The secret to success: plagiarize.
Let no one else's words evade your eyes.
So plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize ...
But, please, always to call it 'research'!"
Or, in the (not-so-immortal) words of cabonney - why expend the energy if you can get a grad student (or fellow poster!) to do it for you?!
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Josh Bubar on March 27, 2005, 10:06:15 PM
Post by: Josh Bubar on March 27, 2005, 10:06:15 PM
All-
Just to lend crdence to Jeff's post, it is my understanding that Coach Spencer has been a member of the "system" list-serv group for the past year or so. That may or may not mean he will take the plunge the whole way, but California would be a great place to do it as there seems to be a great deal of talent and the potential for some of it to get overlooked, thus allowing him to get the numbers of players in that he will need, at least early on.
Just to lend crdence to Jeff's post, it is my understanding that Coach Spencer has been a member of the "system" list-serv group for the past year or so. That may or may not mean he will take the plunge the whole way, but California would be a great place to do it as there seems to be a great deal of talent and the potential for some of it to get overlooked, thus allowing him to get the numbers of players in that he will need, at least early on.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2005, 10:38:19 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2005, 10:38:19 PM
OK, Cabonney, you're scary. Because I have a friend in Minsk who has a friend in Pinsk whose friend in Omsk has friend in Tomsk with friend in Akmolinsk...
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2005, 11:56:48 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2005, 11:56:48 PM
Uh oh, Pat, you nailed me -
[WARNING to novices and all, no matter how obscure you initially think your reference, SOMEONE on the board knows as much or more than you do!!]
'cause I KNOW I got the quote wrong (for one thing, I left out the great line: 'that's why the good lord made your eyes').
I'm not sure I still have all the albums (in my opinion, Tom Lehrer's 4 albums are the four greatest comedy albums ever done!) - that's the hazard of a relatively rapid transition across media. But I WILL find it!!
So, are you a direct descendent of Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevski??
[WARNING to novices and all, no matter how obscure you initially think your reference, SOMEONE on the board knows as much or more than you do!!]
'cause I KNOW I got the quote wrong (for one thing, I left out the great line: 'that's why the good lord made your eyes').
I'm not sure I still have all the albums (in my opinion, Tom Lehrer's 4 albums are the four greatest comedy albums ever done!) - that's the hazard of a relatively rapid transition across media. But I WILL find it!!
So, are you a direct descendent of Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevski??
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 28, 2005, 12:04:33 AM
Post by: Pat Coleman on March 28, 2005, 12:04:33 AM
S'alright, I wasn't going to hold you to the 40-year-old text.
(Plagiarize/Let no one else's work evade your eyes/Remember why the good lord made your eyes/so don't shade your eyes/but plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize)
Not to make you feel old or anything, but my dad passed love of Tom Lehrer along to me. Thankfully my bride is on the same wavelength.
(Plagiarize/Let no one else's work evade your eyes/Remember why the good lord made your eyes/so don't shade your eyes/but plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize)
Not to make you feel old or anything, but my dad passed love of Tom Lehrer along to me. Thankfully my bride is on the same wavelength.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: David Collinge on March 28, 2005, 08:13:31 PM
Post by: David Collinge on March 28, 2005, 08:13:31 PM
I LOVE the off-season!
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2005, 12:03:06 AM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on March 29, 2005, 12:03:06 AM
Pat,
THANK YOU!!!!
Unless it is on some unlabelled cassette tape, my album is GONE!
And, as Socrates ALMOST said, "the unexamined life [without Tom Lehrer] is not worth living"!
Generations are so variable, that THAT sort of reference cannot make me feel old - one of my students KNEW Tom Lehrer, because HIS father was a good buddy! (I admit that this was a student from about 25 years ago, but the point remains!)
Oh all right - I AM old!
THANK YOU!!!!
Unless it is on some unlabelled cassette tape, my album is GONE!
And, as Socrates ALMOST said, "the unexamined life [without Tom Lehrer] is not worth living"!
Generations are so variable, that THAT sort of reference cannot make me feel old - one of my students KNEW Tom Lehrer, because HIS father was a good buddy! (I admit that this was a student from about 25 years ago, but the point remains!)
Oh all right - I AM old!
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on March 29, 2005, 07:48:38 AM
Post by: jeff p on March 29, 2005, 07:48:38 AM
I have heard from a very reliable source that Second City is planning to run the Grinnell system this fall. They intend to bring back Tom Lehrer to coach this team. Godfrey Cambridge will be his assistant.
This shoulda been my Easter Post.
This shoulda been my Easter Post.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 08, 2005, 05:19:55 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 08, 2005, 05:19:55 PM
jeff p,
I think Tom Lehrer would have been more likely to adopt the Princeton system - I think your Grinnell coaches for Second City would much more likely be Robin Williams and Richard Pryor, with Chris Rock as grad student assistant!
I understand Harvard fired Tom Lehrer after each album, only to re-hire him in a year or so after the brouhaha died down! (Despite the initials, TL should NOT be confused with Timothy Leary - Tom Lehrer was very much a mathematician: Princeton's 'angles' would have appealed to him!)
I think Tom Lehrer would have been more likely to adopt the Princeton system - I think your Grinnell coaches for Second City would much more likely be Robin Williams and Richard Pryor, with Chris Rock as grad student assistant!
I understand Harvard fired Tom Lehrer after each album, only to re-hire him in a year or so after the brouhaha died down! (Despite the initials, TL should NOT be confused with Timothy Leary - Tom Lehrer was very much a mathematician: Princeton's 'angles' would have appealed to him!)
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on April 09, 2005, 09:32:22 AM
Post by: jeff p on April 09, 2005, 09:32:22 AM
But you forget that system ball is based on statistical analysis! Leary woulda fit well in the stands, though.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 09, 2005, 10:05:18 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on April 09, 2005, 10:05:18 PM
jeff,
Ya nailed me! I don't know whether Tom Lehrer's mathematical specialty was closer to statistics or geometry (or, according to system critics, chaos theory!) - I guess either Princeton or Grinnell MIGHT appeal to a math guy!
My suggested coaches are based on the assumption that a whole lot more 'improv' is required for system ball than most mathematicians would be comfortable with.
You must have a very 'interesting' crowd if Timothy Leary would fit right in - I'm not sure he would 'fit right in' in 1965 Haight-Ashbury!
(Message edited by cabonney on April 9, 2005)
Ya nailed me! I don't know whether Tom Lehrer's mathematical specialty was closer to statistics or geometry (or, according to system critics, chaos theory!) - I guess either Princeton or Grinnell MIGHT appeal to a math guy!
My suggested coaches are based on the assumption that a whole lot more 'improv' is required for system ball than most mathematicians would be comfortable with.
You must have a very 'interesting' crowd if Timothy Leary would fit right in - I'm not sure he would 'fit right in' in 1965 Haight-Ashbury!
(Message edited by cabonney on April 9, 2005)
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on July 14, 2005, 10:54:20 AM
Post by: digs on July 14, 2005, 10:54:20 AM
Anyone find it ironic that Westminster (PA) just hired an assistant basketball coach that also serves as an assistant track coach?
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeff p on August 08, 2005, 03:45:43 PM
Post by: jeff p on August 08, 2005, 03:45:43 PM
A quick look at the Grinnell schedule(4 official games listed so far) shows that we will indeed have the first game between two system teams on November 22 when MacMurray comes to Grinnell for a game. Grinnell is, of course, a true system team :-)
while MacMurray plays its own version of system ball. Anyone willing to take a line on this game?
while MacMurray plays its own version of system ball. Anyone willing to take a line on this game?
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 08, 2005, 05:44:06 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 08, 2005, 05:44:06 PM
Taking the over.
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 08, 2005, 11:33:17 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on August 08, 2005, 11:33:17 PM
Pat, I'd set the over-under line well over 300; perhaps 330 - still the over?
Title: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: "The Roop" on August 08, 2005, 11:38:34 PM
Post by: "The Roop" on August 08, 2005, 11:38:34 PM
If they televise it I'll take the under.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on August 16, 2005, 06:56:01 PM
Post by: coachferrier on August 16, 2005, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Josh Bubar on March 27, 2005, 10:06:15 PM
All-
Just to lend crdence to Jeff's post, it is my understanding that Coach Spencer has been a member of the "system" list-serv group for the past year or so.
I'm new to this board, does anyone know of this "group" and where I might find it at?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 16, 2005, 07:19:06 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 16, 2005, 07:19:06 PM
You have to be invited, I believe. Pretty sure that just your posting here will get someone's attention and they'll take care of you.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on August 16, 2005, 09:28:23 PM
Post by: coachferrier on August 16, 2005, 09:28:23 PM
thanks. I'm a high school coach in Washington State and I'm contemplating going to some form of the "system". just trying to get some ideas going...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Coach C on August 30, 2005, 12:50:58 AM
Post by: Coach C on August 30, 2005, 12:50:58 AM
Well as an East Coast who is fascinated by the system, I would love to be invited to participate in the list serv as well. Any possiblity, O Anonymous Gods of the System?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: czarbubar on August 31, 2005, 11:59:54 PM
Post by: czarbubar on August 31, 2005, 11:59:54 PM
If you are interested in becoming part of the listserve email Bob Belf at coachbelf@juno.com and he should be able to help.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on September 07, 2005, 04:07:13 PM
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on September 07, 2005, 04:07:13 PM
There has been some discussion in the past about Tri-State and their version of the system. My son attended a MacCracken basketball camp this summer, and several Tri-State players were working there. They shared with him that the TS coach told them they would be abandoning that system this year, and playing a more traditional game.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on September 08, 2005, 10:27:05 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on September 08, 2005, 10:27:05 AM
A lot of coaches, players and fans don't understand how much time it takes to make this work, and too many expect immediate results. Sorry to hear they are giving it up, but I wish Tri-State the best in the upcoming season. They gave it a pretty good shot last year. If Grinnell improves this year it may still generate more interest at other schools. The System certainly isn't for everyone but it sure works for Grinnell!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on October 01, 2005, 07:46:50 PM
Post by: coachferrier on October 01, 2005, 07:46:50 PM
well, after waiting and waiting to hear from the moderators of the "system" list-serv I got tired of waiting and bought the second Grinnell instructional video about 10 minutes ago. The high school season is right around the corner here in Washington State........hope you are getting excited!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on October 03, 2005, 08:50:19 PM
Post by: coachferrier on October 03, 2005, 08:50:19 PM
sorry, i dont mean to sound rude in the post above
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: czarbubar on October 04, 2005, 07:58:01 PM
Post by: czarbubar on October 04, 2005, 07:58:01 PM
Coach Ferrier-
Just a word of advice that the first video is the one to have...the second is more of a series of tweaks to the sytem as it evolved for Grinnell. The basic tenets are also in the book Running to Extremes...likely available wherever you got tht video. That being said, just go crazy...press on everything, sell out for steals, try to launch a shot w/in 10 seconds and make sure half of them are threes. Play one minute shifts (trust me) and get the kids to be free and loose...you will have fun, build self-confidence, and instill the values of hard work, win or lose, and that is what it is all about.
Just a word of advice that the first video is the one to have...the second is more of a series of tweaks to the sytem as it evolved for Grinnell. The basic tenets are also in the book Running to Extremes...likely available wherever you got tht video. That being said, just go crazy...press on everything, sell out for steals, try to launch a shot w/in 10 seconds and make sure half of them are threes. Play one minute shifts (trust me) and get the kids to be free and loose...you will have fun, build self-confidence, and instill the values of hard work, win or lose, and that is what it is all about.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on October 05, 2005, 02:49:17 AM
Post by: coachferrier on October 05, 2005, 02:49:17 AM
bought everything he's put out. watched the first instructional tape about a hundred times. the tweaks will be good to have. thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 05, 2005, 10:06:44 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 05, 2005, 10:06:44 AM
Coach Ferrier- the System webside administrator has tried to contact you several times. Have you returned his Email yet? He will be more than willing to get you set up!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: coachferrier on October 05, 2005, 08:20:23 PM
Post by: coachferrier on October 05, 2005, 08:20:23 PM
numerous times. must be playin some email tag. will check again!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 15, 2005, 09:03:18 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 15, 2005, 09:03:18 AM
Saw the first practice early this AM. I can report that Grinnell College will be playing system ball once again this year. ;D
The freshman class is loaded with shooters, ballhandlers, passers, and ball stealers. It looks to me that after a month or two of pickup ball with the old guys they already get it!
Should be a completely different year!
The freshman class is loaded with shooters, ballhandlers, passers, and ball stealers. It looks to me that after a month or two of pickup ball with the old guys they already get it!
Should be a completely different year!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on October 21, 2005, 04:04:27 PM
Post by: TeeDub on October 21, 2005, 04:04:27 PM
Jeff,
In your System experience, is there any way to determine (as an observer) what kind of scoring prowess the team will have this early in the season? That is to say, can you look at a System team and say they are are 120 pts/gm team or a 110 pts/gm team?
Your old "source"... Coach Watkins
In your System experience, is there any way to determine (as an observer) what kind of scoring prowess the team will have this early in the season? That is to say, can you look at a System team and say they are are 120 pts/gm team or a 110 pts/gm team?
Your old "source"... Coach Watkins
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 21, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 21, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
Hey, Coach! Great to hear from you!
I'm sure its too early to really answer your question, but based on a few observations I can piss in the wind with the best of 'em!
1.This 1st year class is much faster than the last few classes and to a man they appear to have better hands. That should translate into more trips up the court and more steals.
2. This 1st year class has 3 or 4 excellent ball handlers. Several of these kids are unbelievable passers and can see the court extremely well. That leads to more open shots.
3. This 1st year class has 3 or 4 good to excellent shooters compared to only one or two in each of the last few classes. We will have to wait to see if they shoot as well as a whole as the class of '04 (S Nordland, Wood, Malinowski). Anyway, i count at least 8, maybe 9 guys that can shoot lights out if given more high quality opportunities to do so.
4. This 1st year class should contribute to improved point guard play. Add that to the improved play at the end of the year from 4th year T Carlson and it could make a HUGE difference.
5. All the returnees started 'gettin' it' at the end of the year last year and the 1st years sure look like they already have a handle on most of it.
6. Team chemistry. Wow! Looks to be the best in years!
There will still be a few weak areas, but i'll let the opposing coaches figger out what those are.
Speaking of opposing coaches, sure wish that first System matchup could have been with Redlands, but...MacMurray will be a fun game for everyone, I think. Look for a few records to be shattered in that game even though it is very early on.
Best of luck to you this year and keep in touch! i feel that tourney matchup getting closer every year!
I'm sure its too early to really answer your question, but based on a few observations I can piss in the wind with the best of 'em!
1.This 1st year class is much faster than the last few classes and to a man they appear to have better hands. That should translate into more trips up the court and more steals.
2. This 1st year class has 3 or 4 excellent ball handlers. Several of these kids are unbelievable passers and can see the court extremely well. That leads to more open shots.
3. This 1st year class has 3 or 4 good to excellent shooters compared to only one or two in each of the last few classes. We will have to wait to see if they shoot as well as a whole as the class of '04 (S Nordland, Wood, Malinowski). Anyway, i count at least 8, maybe 9 guys that can shoot lights out if given more high quality opportunities to do so.
4. This 1st year class should contribute to improved point guard play. Add that to the improved play at the end of the year from 4th year T Carlson and it could make a HUGE difference.
5. All the returnees started 'gettin' it' at the end of the year last year and the 1st years sure look like they already have a handle on most of it.
6. Team chemistry. Wow! Looks to be the best in years!
There will still be a few weak areas, but i'll let the opposing coaches figger out what those are.
Speaking of opposing coaches, sure wish that first System matchup could have been with Redlands, but...MacMurray will be a fun game for everyone, I think. Look for a few records to be shattered in that game even though it is very early on.
Best of luck to you this year and keep in touch! i feel that tourney matchup getting closer every year!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 10:58:46 AM
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 10:58:46 AM
Hey Jeff,
I don't know how close we are to a tourney matchup, but it would be nice just to be there...I want to believe that the style of play lends to a potentially interesting run in the post season. I hope we get a chance to prove or disprove that theory.
I'll be keeping my eyes on the System vs. System game. Part of me thinks that these kind of matchups may not be a scoring bonanza because of the inability of either team to get to the legs of the opponents due to the substitutions. In addition, I wonder how effective the pressure will be on an opponent who also lives on the same thing everyday in practice. For us, the scoring is more a product of the defense than the offense which lends to my curiousity of such a matchup. But I'll be watching the box on the game nonetheless.
I thought we were getting pretty close to a GC/UofR game but I think that is on the back burner now. Who knows what the future will hold. The scoring numbers that we put up last year (132.4 / game) and the consistent huge numbers from GC will always lend to the hype of such a game.
So, back to my original question. Can you look at your Pioneers and say, "they look like a 120+ team to me", versus a 100+ team? Do you know what I mean?
I don't know how close we are to a tourney matchup, but it would be nice just to be there...I want to believe that the style of play lends to a potentially interesting run in the post season. I hope we get a chance to prove or disprove that theory.
I'll be keeping my eyes on the System vs. System game. Part of me thinks that these kind of matchups may not be a scoring bonanza because of the inability of either team to get to the legs of the opponents due to the substitutions. In addition, I wonder how effective the pressure will be on an opponent who also lives on the same thing everyday in practice. For us, the scoring is more a product of the defense than the offense which lends to my curiousity of such a matchup. But I'll be watching the box on the game nonetheless.
I thought we were getting pretty close to a GC/UofR game but I think that is on the back burner now. Who knows what the future will hold. The scoring numbers that we put up last year (132.4 / game) and the consistent huge numbers from GC will always lend to the hype of such a game.
So, back to my original question. Can you look at your Pioneers and say, "they look like a 120+ team to me", versus a 100+ team? Do you know what I mean?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 24, 2005, 02:20:48 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 24, 2005, 02:20:48 PM
Geez! You won't let me obfuscate, huh?
120+ non conf
115-120 conf.
ie., something more similar to the "success years" as opposed to last year.
I doubt anyone will ever touch your record! ;-)
I agree about the system match up too, but I've heard tha MacMurray's version is, how shall we say, "quite unique". A very mediocre Cornell College team beat us both last year due to the knowledge of Head Coach DeGeorge and assistants Wood and Choquette. The latter are both gone and GC could be much better this year-certainly quicker. This game could be just as big a crapshoot as the entire MWC season!
120+ non conf
115-120 conf.
ie., something more similar to the "success years" as opposed to last year.
I doubt anyone will ever touch your record! ;-)
I agree about the system match up too, but I've heard tha MacMurray's version is, how shall we say, "quite unique". A very mediocre Cornell College team beat us both last year due to the knowledge of Head Coach DeGeorge and assistants Wood and Choquette. The latter are both gone and GC could be much better this year-certainly quicker. This game could be just as big a crapshoot as the entire MWC season!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 02:34:21 PM
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 02:34:21 PM
Jeff,
I went to a state school, so I don't even know what obfuscate means, but once I was able to muddle through your confusing post, it started to come clear (only kidding)...actually, I enjoyed all the System chatter. And actually you kind of answered my unasked question, which is to know what factors play into the production of points...
The record from last year is nice, but our goal this year should be to keep our opponents from being the second leading scoring 'team' in the country. As you know we started off with a bang and put up HUGE digits on the scoreboard, but as we entered conference, the numbers faded dramatically. Yes, I attribute that some to the conference foes' understanding, but additionally, we tightened up and lost some of the 'freedom' that allowed us to score 172 and 160 in back to back nights in December. Sorry, just thought I'd take a crack at this 'obfuscating' stuff myself.
Thanks for wisdom Jeff....
I went to a state school, so I don't even know what obfuscate means, but once I was able to muddle through your confusing post, it started to come clear (only kidding)...actually, I enjoyed all the System chatter. And actually you kind of answered my unasked question, which is to know what factors play into the production of points...
The record from last year is nice, but our goal this year should be to keep our opponents from being the second leading scoring 'team' in the country. As you know we started off with a bang and put up HUGE digits on the scoreboard, but as we entered conference, the numbers faded dramatically. Yes, I attribute that some to the conference foes' understanding, but additionally, we tightened up and lost some of the 'freedom' that allowed us to score 172 and 160 in back to back nights in December. Sorry, just thought I'd take a crack at this 'obfuscating' stuff myself.
Thanks for wisdom Jeff....
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 24, 2005, 02:51:18 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 24, 2005, 02:51:18 PM
Yup! That happens every year here. Now that you guys have been at it for a couple of years, your opponents sorta know what works and what doesn't in terms of trying to stop what you do. About now, they will start getting overconfident and you guys will start getting more w's because now YOU know how things are supposed to work, too. In other words whoever scores the most points in a game wins, no matter what.
Now THAT is obfuscation, ever though there may or may not be some truth in it! :D
Now THAT is obfuscation, ever though there may or may not be some truth in it! :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 04:28:17 PM
Post by: TeeDub on October 24, 2005, 04:28:17 PM
There is some truth in your obfuscation, but I think it even goes a little beyond that. I believe that much of the System power is mental. The constant on court pressure is not just trapping defenders, but the mental pressure of never being able to let your guard down. The pressure opponents feel to get to the three-point shooter, the pressure they feel to keep us from getting offensive boards, the pressure to not turn it over and break neck speeds, the pressure to resist the pace that is nearly inevitable....
Now, when it comes to conference, if we can get a couple early conference victories against over confident opponents, a new pressure starts to permeate throughout the league play. The pressure of the machine, the System, that is on a roll....it's powerful. Powerful mostly because it makes our guys play with more freedom and more freedom only generates more power to the machine....
Now, when it comes to conference, if we can get a couple early conference victories against over confident opponents, a new pressure starts to permeate throughout the league play. The pressure of the machine, the System, that is on a roll....it's powerful. Powerful mostly because it makes our guys play with more freedom and more freedom only generates more power to the machine....
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 24, 2005, 09:30:35 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 24, 2005, 09:30:35 PM
Ah, yes ... my favorite t-shirt: "Eschew Obfuscation"!
The blank stares are worth the price of admission! ;D
The blank stares are worth the price of admission! ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 25, 2005, 07:38:18 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 25, 2005, 07:38:18 AM
JR-I think you justcoined a new cheer!
Power to the Machine!!!
Power to the Machine!!!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on October 26, 2005, 01:35:55 PM
Post by: Knightstalker on October 26, 2005, 01:35:55 PM
"Welcome to the Machine" I love any chance I get to quote Pink Floyd lyrics.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on October 26, 2005, 02:43:20 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on October 26, 2005, 02:43:20 PM
What a great bleacher to bleacher chant!
Welcome to the Machine!
Power to the Machine!
Welcome to the Machine!
Power to the Machine!
The System Lives!
Just another Brick in the Wall!
(You can't close the door when the Wall's caved in!)
Welcome to the Machine!
Power to the Machine!
Welcome to the Machine!
Power to the Machine!
The System Lives!
Just another Brick in the Wall!
(You can't close the door when the Wall's caved in!)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on October 26, 2005, 03:33:00 PM
Post by: Knightstalker on October 26, 2005, 03:33:00 PM
Eat your Meat! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on October 28, 2005, 04:16:51 PM
Post by: smedindy on October 28, 2005, 04:16:51 PM
Careful with that trey, Eugene?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: dansand on November 03, 2005, 07:17:17 PM
Post by: dansand on November 03, 2005, 07:17:17 PM
I see where Black Hawk College, our junior college here in Moline, IL, is planning to use the Grinnell system this year. Their coach, Troy Noble, claims (and I think he's right) they will be the only JC in the country to use "the system (Noble calls it "Grinnell-style")."
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 04, 2005, 12:42:45 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 04, 2005, 12:42:45 PM
I believe there is at least one Womens Juco employing the system this year, Henry Ford CC in Dearborn Mi.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on November 04, 2005, 02:07:39 PM
Post by: digs on November 04, 2005, 02:07:39 PM
Big game on Saturday as Redlands takes on UC Riverside. This appears to be the first match-up of 2 system teams. UC Riverside claims to run the system and we all know how Redlands tore up the Grinnell records last year.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 04, 2005, 02:38:55 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 04, 2005, 02:38:55 PM
Nice catch, Digs! I been scooped!
(of course it is an exhibition game, right?)
(of course it is an exhibition game, right?)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on November 04, 2005, 03:17:04 PM
Post by: TeeDub on November 04, 2005, 03:17:04 PM
Plus, I don't expect UCR to be a 'Grinnell' style of system play...they will most likely be a LMU style. Coach Spencer was an assistant at LMU during the Gathers/Kimble era.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on November 07, 2005, 09:07:17 AM
Post by: digs on November 07, 2005, 09:07:17 AM
JR,
You may be right on that on LMU influence. UC Riverside did shoot 30 treys in their 162-123 victory.
Interesting opening game macth up for Riverside against Dick Bennett's Washington State team. St Norbert's coach DeNoble's style is heavily influenced by coach Bennett. Maybe we should get each coach some old game tapes of the MWC games.
You may be right on that on LMU influence. UC Riverside did shoot 30 treys in their 162-123 victory.
Interesting opening game macth up for Riverside against Dick Bennett's Washington State team. St Norbert's coach DeNoble's style is heavily influenced by coach Bennett. Maybe we should get each coach some old game tapes of the MWC games.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 07, 2005, 12:21:06 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 07, 2005, 12:21:06 PM
I've been told that Redlands had a great run at the beginning and scored 24 points in the first few minutes before the DI guys got shocked into playing.
This may be Redlands year to make a few waves!
This may be Redlands year to make a few waves!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 08, 2005, 03:26:07 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 08, 2005, 03:26:07 PM
According to the UC - Riverside's media guide, they call it "The System" and alludes to the Loyola Marymount teams of old. They want to take 100 shots a game and play a full court press defense.
They will be on TV on Fox Sports West 2 on January 21 against Long Beach State - 5:00 California time.
They will be on TV on Fox Sports West 2 on January 21 against Long Beach State - 5:00 California time.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 08, 2005, 04:04:09 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 08, 2005, 04:04:09 PM
Jordis Rocks can tell us if they really play full system ball at Riverside.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on November 09, 2005, 03:23:48 PM
Post by: systemfan86 on November 09, 2005, 03:23:48 PM
From the box score of the UCR-Redlands game it appears that UCR came closer to some of the System goals than Redlands did, but less than 30% of their 114 shots were from 3pt range. Considering how many 2pt shots they (UCR) took, they really didn't have a great shooting percentage; at least not what most System opponents shoot.
http://www.redlands.edu/prebuilt/pdf/athletics/2006basketball_mens/ur-ucrex.htm (http://www.redlands.edu/prebuilt/pdf/athletics/2006basketball_mens/ur-ucrex.htm)
http://www.redlands.edu/prebuilt/pdf/athletics/2006basketball_mens/ur-ucrex.htm (http://www.redlands.edu/prebuilt/pdf/athletics/2006basketball_mens/ur-ucrex.htm)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 10, 2005, 01:52:21 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 10, 2005, 01:52:21 PM
Grinnell College Alumni basketball game is scheduled for Saturday night at 7:00pm (following the womens' alumni game at 5:00pm). Lots of great players headed back including Wood, Nordlund the elder, and Malinowski. This could be great fun and will give us all a chance to see how much the newbies have learned in 3 weeks of organized (?) practice.
this is open to the public and as are all GC sporting events, free of charge.
this is open to the public and as are all GC sporting events, free of charge.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 10, 2005, 03:09:43 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 10, 2005, 03:09:43 PM
So Jeff, do the alumni runs the system too when they come to play? It seems like a team led by Wood and Nordland could do some dammage to the young squad in there now.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 10, 2005, 03:44:43 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 10, 2005, 03:44:43 PM
Yup, in recent years they do run it. SOme of the early system players always come back, and some aren't in such great shape, but it is always a fun game. To my knowledge, the alums have never won, but they have come close. Depends on who else shows. One of the better players is 58 years old and can adapt to the system, believe it or not!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: albinomascot19 on November 10, 2005, 07:57:34 PM
Post by: albinomascot19 on November 10, 2005, 07:57:34 PM
Tri State University (IN) of MIAA Conference runs similar to the Grinnell system. But really what is the point to running it. When they were on ESPN2, they didnt seem to perform to their maximum output. By the way why not just play a really basketball game, rather than just throwing up a certain amount of shots a game. Isnt the goal here to win a game, or should a team just be throwing up crazy shot after crazy shot. Whats the point in having a great team scoring average, but still lose a lot of ball games, and then not make the NCAA Tournament. I think the System is flawed. It is basically all about offense, and no real concentration on defense.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on November 11, 2005, 09:35:06 AM
Post by: digs on November 11, 2005, 09:35:06 AM
Albinomascot19,
I'm afraid you're in for it now. I'll let the others respond to the exact details, but is suffices to say that after decades of losing seasons what you call real basketball wasn't working for the schools that run the system. Since going with the system most of these teams have improved their winning percentage and Grinnell has actually won conference titles and played in the NCAAs. Sometimes thinking outside the box pays off...
Go Alumni!!! Especially Gordy.
I'm afraid you're in for it now. I'll let the others respond to the exact details, but is suffices to say that after decades of losing seasons what you call real basketball wasn't working for the schools that run the system. Since going with the system most of these teams have improved their winning percentage and Grinnell has actually won conference titles and played in the NCAAs. Sometimes thinking outside the box pays off...
Go Alumni!!! Especially Gordy.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 11, 2005, 11:05:12 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 11, 2005, 11:05:12 AM
Idda know, digs. After years of this crap, I'm pretty tired of responding to the yabbaroons myself.
;D
Sorry to say that Gordy won't be back this year according to his daughter. He lives too far away.
;D
Sorry to say that Gordy won't be back this year according to his daughter. He lives too far away.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 11, 2005, 03:30:38 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 11, 2005, 03:30:38 PM
There's always room for thinking outside the box. I myself prefer a Princeton style offense, and would love to see a matchup of a team like that against the system. Would matter meet anti-matter? The gym could asplode!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 11, 2005, 04:36:53 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 11, 2005, 04:36:53 PM
No one has tried anything approaching the Princeton style against Grinnell recently with much success. In past years when Grinnell has been hot, the deliberate offenses/defenses have been blown out of their game within a few minutes. Knox has used a slow down style the last few years and has played very well against some good Grinnell teams. Extremely talented teams like Ripon, Lawrence and Carroll have been able to play with the good Grinnell teams, stay with "the system"-even mess with it a bit- and win some games.
It should be a little harder to do this year...I hope.
It should be a little harder to do this year...I hope.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2005, 09:39:48 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2005, 09:39:48 PM
I say, let's settle this on the court - someone arrange a game of Princeton (NOT 'Princeton-style') vs. Grinnell!
But I fear that Smed may be right - the conjuction of matter and anti-matter might take out the entire surrounding county! ;)
But I fear that Smed may be right - the conjuction of matter and anti-matter might take out the entire surrounding county! ;)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 11, 2005, 11:24:41 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 11, 2005, 11:24:41 PM
I think some other teams of recent vintage have out-Princetoned Princeton - Air Force, Samford, etc.
I'm surprised more D-3 teams don't try to do THAT offense, like say Hiram or Oberlin, where you only have a roster of 9 to 12 at most.
Acutally, the real test would be to play how a small high school in Indiana did in the 80's. Western Boone went to the sweet 16 by just holding the ball. They won a regional game 16-14. Can't really do that with a shot clock, but that's the anti-matter to the system.
On another note, Tri-State will visit Wabash this year, so I'll see if Tri-State does do this system up close and personal.
I'm surprised more D-3 teams don't try to do THAT offense, like say Hiram or Oberlin, where you only have a roster of 9 to 12 at most.
Acutally, the real test would be to play how a small high school in Indiana did in the 80's. Western Boone went to the sweet 16 by just holding the ball. They won a regional game 16-14. Can't really do that with a shot clock, but that's the anti-matter to the system.
On another note, Tri-State will visit Wabash this year, so I'll see if Tri-State does do this system up close and personal.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2005, 12:42:20 AM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 12, 2005, 12:42:20 AM
Yeah, we may need to 'channel' Pete Carrill's (sp?) Princeton teams to do this right!
I mean, ya gotta have the inventor of Grinnell ball vs. the inventor of Princeton ball to REALLY test this out!
Now, shot clock or no shot clock? (Obviously irrelevant for Grinnell, and Pete seems to have adapted pretty well - OK, shot clock!)
I mean, ya gotta have the inventor of Grinnell ball vs. the inventor of Princeton ball to REALLY test this out!
Now, shot clock or no shot clock? (Obviously irrelevant for Grinnell, and Pete seems to have adapted pretty well - OK, shot clock!)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 12, 2005, 08:07:38 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 12, 2005, 08:07:38 AM
My understanding is that Tri state has either abandoned the system or has modified it beyond recognition. We will have to see what happens.
Grinnell would relish the thought of facing a "Princeton System", but would probably rather face an acolyte first rather than the father's team. ;D
Grinnell would relish the thought of facing a "Princeton System", but would probably rather face an acolyte first rather than the father's team. ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2005, 08:23:30 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 17, 2005, 08:23:30 PM
Score tonight: UC-Riverside 162, Redlands 123.
Unless I'm misremembering, they both play variants of Grinnell/Marymount ball; any reactions?
Unless I'm misremembering, they both play variants of Grinnell/Marymount ball; any reactions?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 18, 2005, 07:58:00 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 18, 2005, 07:58:00 AM
Mr Ypsi-
check out the discussion on page 5.
check out the discussion on page 5.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 18, 2005, 10:11:26 AM
Post by: smedindy on November 18, 2005, 10:11:26 AM
Wabash plays host to Tri-State in December, so we'll see first hand what they run.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 18, 2005, 12:02:35 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 18, 2005, 12:02:35 PM
It won't be the system-will probably more resemble LM style run and gun.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2005, 07:46:23 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2005, 07:46:23 PM
Quote from: jeffp on November 18, 2005, 07:58:00 AM
Mr Ypsi-
check out the discussion on page 5.
Yikes - how did I come up with a week-and-a-half old score and think it was today's? :-[
EMU is obviously working me too hard! :'(
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2005, 08:50:49 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2005, 08:50:49 PM
Ah Ha!, just found the source of my befuddlement! On the SCIAC board, the score was posted yesterday as though it were news!
Serves me right for reading virtually 'dead' boards!
But, hey, if I don't read 'em, who will? ;D
Serves me right for reading virtually 'dead' boards!
But, hey, if I don't read 'em, who will? ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 19, 2005, 08:17:24 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 19, 2005, 08:17:24 AM
What's the story, Cabonney? Doncha have any grad students to do the research for you this year? :D ;D :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2005, 11:44:52 AM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 19, 2005, 11:44:52 AM
Quote from: jeffp on November 19, 2005, 08:17:24 AM
What's the story, Cabonney? Doncha have any grad students to do the research for you this year? :D ;D :D
Maybe I'd be better off going back to that - my own research is obviously rather sloppy! :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: heatlee on November 20, 2005, 07:19:34 PM
Post by: heatlee on November 20, 2005, 07:19:34 PM
UCR just got blown out by Washington State using "their system". UCR does not use the same "system" as Grinnell. They use the same type of uptempo game as Loyola Marymount used when Paul Westhead was there.
This type of play while exciting has never paid off with any sort of national title, and probably never will. Defense wins championships.
This type of play while exciting has never paid off with any sort of national title, and probably never will. Defense wins championships.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 20, 2005, 07:56:15 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 20, 2005, 07:56:15 PM
Well now lets see. There are maybe 5 teams playing system style ball at the D3 level and 2 or 3 playing LM style at the D1 level. The system has been around for about 14 years. Seems God er, Heatlee is a bit impatient, don't you think? That aside from missing the whole point of playing this style anyway. But since winning is everything...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2005, 08:58:47 AM
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2005, 08:58:47 AM
I'm surprised Tri-State backed off after just one year and went to L-M style, perhaps. The MIAA isn't an easy place to play hoops, and I think they'd have more success if they stuck with it longer.
Who else is playing it thus far?
Who else is playing it thus far?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 21, 2005, 11:42:54 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 21, 2005, 11:42:54 AM
redlands and grinnell are still pure. Then comes tri state, macmurray, Westminster, puget and some others who have tried and altered into almost unrecognisable versions. Macmurray is probably the closest of these D3 schools to system play. The come to Grinnell tomorrow (22nd) for a 5:00 game. That could be a real hoot! There are others at the Junior College and High school level playing system ball.
And I couldn't agree with you more. It takes way more than one year to make this thing work.
And I couldn't agree with you more. It takes way more than one year to make this thing work.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: heatlee on November 21, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
Post by: heatlee on November 21, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
When you play basketball you play to win, and that means an NCAA title, not some league title. Though the "system" is entertaining, and may get twenty wins, it has not gotten a title, and it never will because teams playing the "system" do two things that haven't worked in tournamnet play.
1. They don't put enough emphasis on half-court defense, or defense in general.
2. In tournament play the coaches shorten the bench. Teams will usually go 8 deep. That is at least two fewer than the minimum the "system" plays with. And you can't run the "system with only eight players.
1. They don't put enough emphasis on half-court defense, or defense in general.
2. In tournament play the coaches shorten the bench. Teams will usually go 8 deep. That is at least two fewer than the minimum the "system" plays with. And you can't run the "system with only eight players.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2005, 11:00:08 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2005, 11:00:08 PM
Doesn't Marietta also run some sort of version of this?
Heatlee - for many schools, just winning a conference title is enough. It's all on the priorities.
Think of Grinnell - before this, they were nothing on the basketball landscape. Now they can contend for their conference title and make the tournament.
Each school has its own goals. Let's look at the NCAC and their realistic goals this year:
For Wooster and Witt - they want to make the final 4 and possibly win it all.
For Wabash, Denison, Earlham and OWU - they want to upset the apple cart and win the conference tourney.
For Allegheny and Kenyon - they'd like to have a good showing and maybe upset Wooster or Witt in the quarterfinals.
For Hiram and Oberlin - they would like to make the conference tourney.
Not every school has a chance to win the NCAAs, even though every one is playing to win. I'm sure CalTech would love to win a few games this year, but that's a backseat to what their real goals are.
Heatlee - for many schools, just winning a conference title is enough. It's all on the priorities.
Think of Grinnell - before this, they were nothing on the basketball landscape. Now they can contend for their conference title and make the tournament.
Each school has its own goals. Let's look at the NCAC and their realistic goals this year:
For Wooster and Witt - they want to make the final 4 and possibly win it all.
For Wabash, Denison, Earlham and OWU - they want to upset the apple cart and win the conference tourney.
For Allegheny and Kenyon - they'd like to have a good showing and maybe upset Wooster or Witt in the quarterfinals.
For Hiram and Oberlin - they would like to make the conference tourney.
Not every school has a chance to win the NCAAs, even though every one is playing to win. I'm sure CalTech would love to win a few games this year, but that's a backseat to what their real goals are.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 22, 2005, 07:49:39 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 22, 2005, 07:49:39 AM
How many D3 tourney winners have there been anyway? Has everyone but Grinnell, Redlands, Marietta (yes, the do run some version) MacMurray, Westminster, Puget, and
Emory and Henry won the thing?
Heatlee knows all about the system. Maybe he knows the answer to this question as well.
Emory and Henry won the thing?
Heatlee knows all about the system. Maybe he knows the answer to this question as well.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: heatlee on November 22, 2005, 05:26:27 PM
Post by: heatlee on November 22, 2005, 05:26:27 PM
The major problem with the system is that if you have players that are talented they are usually getting a minute to a minute and a half of playing time before they get taken out because they should be tired. What that does is it keeps many players from getting or staying in the flow of the game.
Also, you usually don't have your five best players on the court at one time. When using the "system" you want to have your best players coming at the opponent from different positions, a 2 with unit A and a 3 with unit B. It must also be realized that this system is always changing and the lineups can and will change constantly especially at the end of games, because the rotations are generally pre-planned but at the end of the game the players who are hitting their shots are staying in. This can cause dissension if you don't have a close knit team.
Yes, this is a nice system, it can cause some upsets, it is entertaining, and can level the playing field. But the teams that use this system run to extremes and a team that plays this way has great difficulty beating any good team with discipline.
Also, you usually don't have your five best players on the court at one time. When using the "system" you want to have your best players coming at the opponent from different positions, a 2 with unit A and a 3 with unit B. It must also be realized that this system is always changing and the lineups can and will change constantly especially at the end of games, because the rotations are generally pre-planned but at the end of the game the players who are hitting their shots are staying in. This can cause dissension if you don't have a close knit team.
Yes, this is a nice system, it can cause some upsets, it is entertaining, and can level the playing field. But the teams that use this system run to extremes and a team that plays this way has great difficulty beating any good team with discipline.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 22, 2005, 06:33:59 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 22, 2005, 06:33:59 PM
We had the whole system breakdown last year (is it all offesne or all defense, etc) as well as the debate about winning a tournament.
Bottom line, the team with the best combination of talent, preparation and chemistry will win the title. And if a system team is going to do it, I'm confident it will be coach A's bunch, even if it takes another decade or two.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on November 23, 2005, 11:46:53 AM
Post by: digs on November 23, 2005, 11:46:53 AM
Heatlee,
With the possibility of offending Jeffp, some Grinnell Grads and other fans--If you took the 10 best kids that Grinnell has had play for them during the system years and put them on a team, they still would likely not have enough talent to win the NCAA DIII title (Actually the talent would be decent, but the mix of players would be tough--too many guards and skinny big men). And yet over these years with a motley group of guys they have been able to win some conference championships and beat a few ranked teams. There are probably over 200 teams in D3 that cannot say the same thing. It seems that the system is better that whatever the majority of D3 is running.
(Sorry Deikman, Brands, Clement, Wood, Nordland(s), Boyle, ...)
With the possibility of offending Jeffp, some Grinnell Grads and other fans--If you took the 10 best kids that Grinnell has had play for them during the system years and put them on a team, they still would likely not have enough talent to win the NCAA DIII title (Actually the talent would be decent, but the mix of players would be tough--too many guards and skinny big men). And yet over these years with a motley group of guys they have been able to win some conference championships and beat a few ranked teams. There are probably over 200 teams in D3 that cannot say the same thing. It seems that the system is better that whatever the majority of D3 is running.
(Sorry Deikman, Brands, Clement, Wood, Nordland(s), Boyle, ...)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 23, 2005, 03:41:52 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 23, 2005, 03:41:52 PM
No offense taken, Digs-you are absolutely right. Except that now we seem to be getting better shots at better recruits. Class of 2004 had four good ones, 2005 had one, 2006 had one, 2007 had one, 2008 has 3 or maybe 4.
Now if you could find all those you named and the ones that are left...THEN you have something!
But remember it is ALL ABOUT WINNING! ;D ;D ;D
Now if you could find all those you named and the ones that are left...THEN you have something!
But remember it is ALL ABOUT WINNING! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on November 30, 2005, 04:12:12 PM
Post by: systemfan86 on November 30, 2005, 04:12:12 PM
Quote from: jeffp on November 23, 2005, 03:41:52 PM
No offense taken, Digs-you are absolutely right. Except that now we seem to be getting better shots at better recruits. Class of 2004 had four good ones, 2005 had one, 2006 had one, 2007 had one, 2008 has 3 or maybe 4.
Now if you could find all those you named and the ones that are left...THEN you have something!
But remember it is ALL ABOUT WINNING! ;D ;D ;D
I agree with jeffp that no offense is taken; you could make the same statement about taking the top 10 players from 96% of the d3 teams and not winning.
And while I know he had his tongue in his cheek, I think I will take issue with the statement that it is ALL ABOUT WINNING. It IS about winning (as Grinnell has demonstrated), just not ALL about winning. No one plays the system to loose. (And I know full well jeffp agrees with that!)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 30, 2005, 04:45:50 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 30, 2005, 04:45:50 PM
QuoteNo one plays the system to loose
Now is it "to lose" or "too loose"? ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 01, 2005, 08:08:05 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 01, 2005, 08:08:05 AM
Either one works for me. ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on December 01, 2005, 09:07:10 AM
Post by: systemfan86 on December 01, 2005, 09:07:10 AM
Fruedian slip, wouldn't you say? :)
How about this? "If you play the system too loose, then you will like be playing to lose." ;D
How about this? "If you play the system too loose, then you will like be playing to lose." ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Coach C on December 01, 2005, 05:12:40 PM
Post by: Coach C on December 01, 2005, 05:12:40 PM
All this stuff about talent and the system biols down to this. Despite all of the work that coaches do, talent usually wins games. In games with equally talented teams, coaching is still often not as important as venue.
That being said, I think that the system does have the potential to do well in the tournament becasue it is so difficult to prepare for. If you get a team with a lot of talent running the system, i don't think a final four is out of the question. Defense wins championships, but preparation is also crucial and if you don't ever see this system and you have a 2 day windo to get ready, you could be in trouble in a tournament situation.
I can tell you that coaches at this level area really talking abou thte system. Even guys with long time half court slug it out offense and defense philosophies are intrigued by it.
C
That being said, I think that the system does have the potential to do well in the tournament becasue it is so difficult to prepare for. If you get a team with a lot of talent running the system, i don't think a final four is out of the question. Defense wins championships, but preparation is also crucial and if you don't ever see this system and you have a 2 day windo to get ready, you could be in trouble in a tournament situation.
I can tell you that coaches at this level area really talking abou thte system. Even guys with long time half court slug it out offense and defense philosophies are intrigued by it.
C
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 01, 2005, 05:26:22 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 01, 2005, 05:26:22 PM
Coach C
you are right on the button. last year a mediocre GC team totally surprised a very talented Wartburg team at their place in a 140-138 OT win. That sort of thing happens almost every year.
you are right on the button. last year a mediocre GC team totally surprised a very talented Wartburg team at their place in a 140-138 OT win. That sort of thing happens almost every year.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 02, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 02, 2005, 09:42:00 AM
And, not to rehash the debate from last year, but I contend the system is essentially driven by defense. The huge point totals throw people off, assuming its all offense. Essentially, the focus is defense (full court press, rebounding). While the system relies on shooters, everyone gets to throw up shots, but it is a successful defense that drives the success. Even if they win a title 140-138 someday, we will still be able to say defense wins championships.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on December 02, 2005, 11:25:47 AM
Post by: TeeDub on December 02, 2005, 11:25:47 AM
Hoops Fan...
BINGO!!
BINGO!!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 02, 2005, 12:15:50 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 02, 2005, 12:15:50 PM
Ah, jeez you guys! Don;t be giving this stuff away! ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 02, 2005, 11:19:40 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 02, 2005, 11:19:40 PM
HUGE win for Grinnell tonight-avenging 2 losses to Beloit last year with a 30 pt victory (approx) 133-104
Grinnell's version of the system his hitting on all cylinders!
Grinnell's version of the system his hitting on all cylinders!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 03, 2005, 11:39:58 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 03, 2005, 11:39:58 AM
Sounds like I missed a good one. How did Roop look in the GC t-shirt?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 03, 2005, 07:59:07 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 03, 2005, 07:59:07 PM
Grinnell 110
Ripon 104
All defense!!!! Seriously!!!
Ripon 104
All defense!!!! Seriously!!!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: The Roop on December 04, 2005, 12:14:41 AM
Post by: The Roop on December 04, 2005, 12:14:41 AM
Hoops,
As always "The Roop" looks good in whatever he is wearing.
As always "The Roop" looks good in whatever he is wearing.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 05, 2005, 11:48:13 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 05, 2005, 11:48:13 AM
Grinnell is looking strong. I'm sorry I missed this weekend, but things may be even more tense in January when I do finally make it to Darby.
I'm glad I'll at least get to see a team firing on all cylinders. It's nice to see the best show on hardwood has rebounded (pun definately intended) from last year.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeffdc on December 12, 2005, 05:11:07 PM
Post by: jeffdc on December 12, 2005, 05:11:07 PM
Interesting discussion going on over in the MWC area about the System - Grinnell-style vs. Redlands. Worth a look.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 09:59:44 AM
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 09:59:44 AM
Trying to bring the discussion from the MWC board to where it might rightfully belong... I know Jeffp will follow, but who knows about Jordis and Old Fighting Scot.
I think we need to remember that Old Fighting Scot has more first hand knowledge than anyone else. From what I can gather Jeffp has not seen Redlands and Jordis has not seen Grinnell. From reading the SCIAC board it sounds as if Redlands is down this year although they don't get much respect on that board anyway (like Grinnell used to be on the MWC board). Basically what he is saying is that from what he has seen, Redlands is not as good as the Grinnell teams he played against or watched. It is an opinion from someone that has seen both. Take it as that. It is not every day that a Monmouth guy is complementing Grinnell or the system.
As far as OFS's comments about the shooters and teams that Grinnell has had over the years, he is making comments on his observations which are a few games a year--mostly away from Darby. I would have to agree that in my memory the early system teams had some great shooters and while recent teams have had some too, it is hard to forget the likes of Jeff Clement or Ed Brands dropping 40-60 poinst on opponents. (Kind of gets burnt into the brain, like a Petefish playing for IC--doesn't one of them still play there.) These guys also tended to hit shots from further out than current shooters IMO. Of course no one sees more Grinnell games than Jeffp so he probably has a point that the number of shooters has been as high all along.
I think we need to remember that Old Fighting Scot has more first hand knowledge than anyone else. From what I can gather Jeffp has not seen Redlands and Jordis has not seen Grinnell. From reading the SCIAC board it sounds as if Redlands is down this year although they don't get much respect on that board anyway (like Grinnell used to be on the MWC board). Basically what he is saying is that from what he has seen, Redlands is not as good as the Grinnell teams he played against or watched. It is an opinion from someone that has seen both. Take it as that. It is not every day that a Monmouth guy is complementing Grinnell or the system.
As far as OFS's comments about the shooters and teams that Grinnell has had over the years, he is making comments on his observations which are a few games a year--mostly away from Darby. I would have to agree that in my memory the early system teams had some great shooters and while recent teams have had some too, it is hard to forget the likes of Jeff Clement or Ed Brands dropping 40-60 poinst on opponents. (Kind of gets burnt into the brain, like a Petefish playing for IC--doesn't one of them still play there.) These guys also tended to hit shots from further out than current shooters IMO. Of course no one sees more Grinnell games than Jeffp so he probably has a point that the number of shooters has been as high all along.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2005, 10:08:32 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2005, 10:08:32 AM
Way to be the peacemaker digs. Good show.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on December 13, 2005, 11:21:42 AM
Post by: TeeDub on December 13, 2005, 11:21:42 AM
It often takes one removed from the 'argument' to put it all in perspective...thanks Digs.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 12:13:08 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 12:13:08 PM
Digs-
great points for a volley ball coach! :D
Point I made earlier on the MWC site still stands-One or two (or 3) great shooters years back and now (last 5 or six years minus last year) 4-9 shooters, and this year 8-11 that can hit the magic %. Granted, S Nordy was a tow-the-line shooter, but Wood and Malinowski could shoot deep. You aint seen Grotberg either! However, no one could shoot like Brands-from 30 ft with 3 guys hanging on(one was probably OFS at times). My biggest point is still that you can't judge from a few games (I don't think you have seen many in the last 6 or seven years, digs. Am I right?) I HAVE seen Redlands on tape thanks to two friends and I can tell you that the team looks as close to GC system as possible, maybe just a bit more frightening, and maybe just a bit faster (til this year). As more recruits become interested in GBall, there will be even better talent in years to come. Same holds for Redlands. And again, they are just about the same place GC was years ago. Remember too, that some of these same guys were shooting lights out last year, and are not producing this year. It happens, but still early in the season to make a blanket statement concerning a team with proven players.
great points for a volley ball coach! :D
Point I made earlier on the MWC site still stands-One or two (or 3) great shooters years back and now (last 5 or six years minus last year) 4-9 shooters, and this year 8-11 that can hit the magic %. Granted, S Nordy was a tow-the-line shooter, but Wood and Malinowski could shoot deep. You aint seen Grotberg either! However, no one could shoot like Brands-from 30 ft with 3 guys hanging on(one was probably OFS at times). My biggest point is still that you can't judge from a few games (I don't think you have seen many in the last 6 or seven years, digs. Am I right?) I HAVE seen Redlands on tape thanks to two friends and I can tell you that the team looks as close to GC system as possible, maybe just a bit more frightening, and maybe just a bit faster (til this year). As more recruits become interested in GBall, there will be even better talent in years to come. Same holds for Redlands. And again, they are just about the same place GC was years ago. Remember too, that some of these same guys were shooting lights out last year, and are not producing this year. It happens, but still early in the season to make a blanket statement concerning a team with proven players.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2005, 12:32:54 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2005, 12:32:54 PM
Redlands was downright scary last year and they still didn't have the horses to do anything in their conference. Add that to the drop-off in production this year and its more a statement about the development of the program than it is about the development of the system.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 12:36:54 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 12:36:54 PM
Amen, Hoops Fan!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 01:41:04 PM
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 01:41:04 PM
Jeffp,
You are correct, I rarely get to see Grinnell as does OFS. My point about the shooters is based on this. The old teams always had 2-3 guys that were consistantly lights out, so if you only saw the team once or twice a year you tended to remember these guys. Now they have more, but because of this the shooters/scorers they do have make less of an impression--each one gets less opportunities (even in the system there are only so many shots to go around 100 divided by 3 is a lot larger than 100 divided by 8 ).
Hoops,
You are absolutely correct and all OFS said to start this whole thing was that Redlands wasn't as good as Grinnell which is essentially what everyone agrees to. OFS was just a little less political in his initial statement.
You are correct, I rarely get to see Grinnell as does OFS. My point about the shooters is based on this. The old teams always had 2-3 guys that were consistantly lights out, so if you only saw the team once or twice a year you tended to remember these guys. Now they have more, but because of this the shooters/scorers they do have make less of an impression--each one gets less opportunities (even in the system there are only so many shots to go around 100 divided by 3 is a lot larger than 100 divided by 8 ).
Hoops,
You are absolutely correct and all OFS said to start this whole thing was that Redlands wasn't as good as Grinnell which is essentially what everyone agrees to. OFS was just a little less political in his initial statement.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 02:29:04 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 02:29:04 PM
Another great point, Digs. Where it really becomes evident is when the primary scorer (Grotberg this year) gets shut off or is not on the court, there are many others who can take up the slack.
One other interesting fact is that having a shooter out of EVERYONES league-like Grotberg- loosens it up for others on the court at the same time. That is one reason why the penitration kick is really working this year-ya just don't know what John is gonna do so you have to cover him-or at least attempt to.
One other interesting fact is that having a shooter out of EVERYONES league-like Grotberg- loosens it up for others on the court at the same time. That is one reason why the penitration kick is really working this year-ya just don't know what John is gonna do so you have to cover him-or at least attempt to.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 02:58:19 PM
Post by: digs on December 13, 2005, 02:58:19 PM
It looks like the young David could end up averaging more assists than points for Grinnell. That has got to be pretty rare for anyone in any system. (By the way to you get credit for 1.5 assists if you assit on a 3? only seems fair.)
Also would be cool if Nordlund could get a triple double with points, blocks and rebounds.
Also would be cool if Nordlund could get a triple double with points, blocks and rebounds.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 03:28:06 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 13, 2005, 03:28:06 PM
Jr can dish like nobody's business! He finished 3rd or something all classes at the HS level in assists for his career. Still makes a few too many freshman mistakes, but is getting better. Another interesting point is that Toby is playing much better at the point as well! How incredible to have 3 guys that can play the position with complete understanding of the role required! A luxury that GC has never had!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 04, 2006, 09:08:35 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 04, 2006, 09:08:35 AM
Redlands over Wheaton last night. I know Wheaton is down quite a bit, but its still got to be a huge win for Redlands. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 04, 2006, 05:37:02 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 04, 2006, 05:37:02 PM
I'll bet Jordis Rocks is feeling great today.
I'll bet April is FREAKED OUT!!!
Down or not, this is still a major win for a Redlands team that has been struggling.
Congrats to Coaches Smith, Watson and Team Redlands!
I'll bet April is FREAKED OUT!!!
Down or not, this is still a major win for a Redlands team that has been struggling.
Congrats to Coaches Smith, Watson and Team Redlands!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 04, 2006, 07:15:01 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 04, 2006, 07:15:01 PM
To say Wheaton is down a bit (or even QUITE a bit) is an understatement! They graduated 4 of their starters, and the other one (a future CCIW MOP IMO) chose not to return. They also lost two other underclassmen who probably WOULD have been starters this year. All together, they have only ONE of their top nine players from last year.
I predict that they will finish next-to-last in the CCIW this year (and that's only because I have such respect for Coach Bill Harris as to figure he will SOMEHOW avoid the basement! Congratulations to Redlands, but this was NOT a real Wheaton team they beat.
And, yes, April is taking it hard - see her post on the Survivor Pool board. :'(
I predict that they will finish next-to-last in the CCIW this year (and that's only because I have such respect for Coach Bill Harris as to figure he will SOMEHOW avoid the basement! Congratulations to Redlands, but this was NOT a real Wheaton team they beat.
And, yes, April is taking it hard - see her post on the Survivor Pool board. :'(
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 11:10:43 AM
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 11:10:43 AM
I just read on the MAC women board a description written by Bob Ziadie of the Salisbury women team. It sounds like they are running some variation of the Grinnell System. He wrote something like "40 minutes of hell, run and gun, full court press, mass substitution" in describing them.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 11:38:56 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 11:38:56 AM
I think they are just playing the old Marymount style with some tough full-court pressure. The do spread the minutes fairly evenly over nine players, but they only shoot three's for about 15% of their shots. They just play tough d and fast break the whole time.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 11:47:33 AM
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 11:47:33 AM
It was the full court press, mass substitution that made me think they were running the system.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 01:05:32 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 01:05:32 PM
Yeah a lot of times it is hard to tell. I think you just have to go back to the five goals and see how the team lines up. The men's team down at Troy, I think it is, runs a really fast paced game with a ton of threes. They aren't quite at the five goals yet, but they certainly seem to be a lot closer than any other d1 school I've come across.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 01:22:12 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 01:22:12 PM
I've been told there are about 190 coaches who belong to the "system " website and that there are many different approaches to information discussed there. Many don't do anything but read and get ideas, but many more are actually instituting some or all of the principles of system play at all levels of competition from Jr high school through HS, Juco, NAIA, and D3; both men and women. I'd be willing to bet the teams/coaches you are talking about have had contact with the folks at this particular website whether what they play is called system ball or not. It definitely does NOT appear to be a flash-in-the-pan phenominon as some thought it might be.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 01:35:34 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 01:35:34 PM
The trend in D-1 is to get more of a defensive game now.
Troy has been running that version for quite a while, they were the team that put over 200 on the board one day. I'd say it's closer to the L-M version of it all.
UC - Riverside was supposed to emulate Marymount, as they hired Westhead's old assistant at L-M, but they've...stunk...to put it mildly. Teams are successfully slowing them down and taking them out of it.
Troy has been running that version for quite a while, they were the team that put over 200 on the board one day. I'd say it's closer to the L-M version of it all.
UC - Riverside was supposed to emulate Marymount, as they hired Westhead's old assistant at L-M, but they've...stunk...to put it mildly. Teams are successfully slowing them down and taking them out of it.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 02:03:01 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 02:03:01 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 01:35:34 PM
The trend in D-1 is to get more of a defensive game now.
Yeah, thats why I hardly watch it (D1) anymore. Too jaded by up tempo stuff with a different type of defensive emphasis. Not that it is wrong, I just don't care for it for 40 minutes straight.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 02:09:59 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 02:09:59 PM
So, obviously I don't have the hang of this quote thing yet. In the above post, the first sentence is the quote and the rest is my response. Sorry.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 02:14:07 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 02:14:07 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 01:35:34 PM
UC - Riverside was supposed to emulate Marymount, as they hired Westhead's old assistant at L-M, but they've...stunk...to put it mildly. Teams are successfully slowing them down and taking them out of it.
I think this may be one of the hurdles of getting the "System" to Division I...getting the horses you need to run it against the opponent's DI type athletes. UCR just doesn't have the personnel right now to be able to force action against their opponents. Coach Spencer is a recruiting stud though and if he can be given another year or two to bring some kids in, I expect that you will see a more system-like performing team (probably more LMU than GC)
Quote from: jeffp on January 06, 2006, 01:22:12 PM
I've been told there are about 190 coaches who belong to the "system " website and that there are many different approaches to information discussed there. Many don't do anything but read and get ideas, but many more are actually instituting some or all of the principles of system play at all levels of competition from Jr high school through HS, Juco, NAIA, and D3; both men and women. I'd be willing to bet the teams/coaches you are talking about have had contact with the folks at this particular website whether what they play is called system ball or not. It definitely does NOT appear to be a flash-in-the-pan phenominon as some thought it might be.
The "System" definitely has its place in the game and deservingly so. It really is a 'disciplined' way to play. You have to have your kids COMPLETELY commit to it, or it won't work...other systems of play may have a little more wiggle room on that level of buy-in by the players. Nonetheless, we are seeing more and more interest in the System, but still haven't seen too many teams really implement it completely. It is a very hard not to tinker with it because it really is very simplistic...and as coaches we sometimes overwork stuff...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 02:39:04 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 02:39:04 PM
QuoteYeah, thats why I hardly watch it (D1) anymore. Too jaded by up tempo stuff with a different type of defensive emphasis. Not that it is wrong, I just don't care for it for 40 minutes straight.
It's funny, though, I prefer a good, tight defensive game light I perfer pitchers duels in baseball. Make 'em work for points, but that may be the Hoosier in me talking. :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 03:05:27 PM
Post by: Knightstalker on January 06, 2006, 03:05:27 PM
I prefer that also, I like 10 to 7 football games also.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 03:11:43 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 06, 2006, 03:11:43 PM
Now, I love a pitchers duel too, and thought the first half of the Rose Bowl game was the best half. And I love basketball defense as well-the way Grinnell plays it anyway.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 03:51:47 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 03:51:47 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 02:39:04 PM
It's funny, though, I prefer a good, tight defensive game light I perfer pitchers duels in baseball.
I'm impressed by a good pitcher's talent, but I don't like those games. Roger Clemens can go out and win a game no matter how poor the players behind him are...
...that may carry over to some programs that bring in a STUD player and manufacture wins through him...the System really does rely on all 5 players on the court. The trapping, rotations and all-out sprints on defense and the screens, offensive boards and assist makers compliment the shooters. Neither can exist on their own.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 03:59:13 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 03:59:13 PM
Baseball's a totally different thing. Even a horrid team will get a win over a champ now and then. A nice crisp 2-1 game with good pitching and defense is always a thing o' beauty.
As far as basketball, I don't think building a team around one guy, in college, gets it done. One man gangs tend to fizzle. Plus, the unsung heroes in many systems to the dirty work, set screens, play D, take charges make sure the switches are right, box out, things that really don't go on the stat sheet. So even a one-man band has four others that are doing the little things.
As far as basketball, I don't think building a team around one guy, in college, gets it done. One man gangs tend to fizzle. Plus, the unsung heroes in many systems to the dirty work, set screens, play D, take charges make sure the switches are right, box out, things that really don't go on the stat sheet. So even a one-man band has four others that are doing the little things.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 04:02:47 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 06, 2006, 04:02:47 PM
Unless its actually a one man band, like the Dick Van Dyke character in Mary Poppins.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 04:03:27 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 03:59:13 PM
Plus, the unsung heroes in many systems to the dirty work, set screens, play D, take charges make sure the switches are right, box out, things that really don't go on the stat sheet. So even a one-man band has four others that are doing the little things.
oh, so it sounds like the "System" is more like "conventional" teams than some would make it out to be.
Thanks, Smed, for helping me make the point.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
What point was that? Using all five players is not some magic elixir the system devised? This isn't the NBA, where everyone goes one-on-one!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 06:39:02 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 06:39:02 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
What point was that? Using all five players is not some magic elixir the system devised? This isn't the NBA, where everyone goes one-on-one!
That is exactly my point. The System is NOT so unique to be excluded from the game. There are many who contend that the "System" is not basketball. My contention is quite contrary to that belief. The System is VERY basketball...and it includes many if not all of the same disciplines as many other styles of play. The method or application is different, but the disciplines are similar.
The point I am referring to, simply put, is that as you have described in your previous post and I in mine, THE SYSTEM IS BASKETBALL.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 06:40:20 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 06:40:20 PM
I don't think I was saying it wasn't. No need to get defensive!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 06:45:01 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 06, 2006, 06:45:01 PM
Smed,
I apologize for the defensive tone. I was really writing to those who read the thread more than to you specifically. I appreciate all the things you said. Thanks for engaging.
JR
I apologize for the defensive tone. I was really writing to those who read the thread more than to you specifically. I appreciate all the things you said. Thanks for engaging.
JR
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 06, 2006, 07:31:03 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 06, 2006, 07:31:03 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
What point was that? Using all five players is not some magic elixir the system devised? This isn't the NBA, where everyone goes one-on-one!
Smed, you need to modify that slightly - the Pistons don't do one-on-one, which is why they've been in the Finals two years straight, and this year are on pace to challenge the Bull's all-time record of 72 wins. Team ball DOES win, even in the NBA!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 07, 2006, 08:41:54 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 07, 2006, 08:41:54 AM
I thought I would let those of you who are interested know that todays Grinnell College vs Illinois College game is being webcast at 3:00(CST) at
www.kgrn1410.com
With GC coming off a loss at Carthage, and knowing the mindset of some of the players on this team, this could be a real burn 'em down game.
Go Pioneers!
www.kgrn1410.com
With GC coming off a loss at Carthage, and knowing the mindset of some of the players on this team, this could be a real burn 'em down game.
Go Pioneers!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeffdc on January 13, 2006, 05:35:35 PM
Post by: jeffdc on January 13, 2006, 05:35:35 PM
For those interested in seeing the GC team in action against one of the best teams in their conference, there is a webcast tonight (Friday, 1/13) at 7:30 CST. Click this link to watch:
https://www.naluexchange.com/questions.php?eventId=68
And enjoy! :D
https://www.naluexchange.com/questions.php?eventId=68
And enjoy! :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on January 16, 2006, 11:12:52 AM
Post by: digs on January 16, 2006, 11:12:52 AM
Quote from: smedindy on January 06, 2006, 06:40:20 PM
I don't think I was saying it wasn't. No need to get defensive!
I found it ironic that a system "defender" is getting razzed for being defensive since we all know that system teams don't play defense. :) :D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 16, 2006, 11:32:40 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 16, 2006, 11:32:40 AM
We don't need to get in to this again; I would expect more from you digs, even if it was said with smiley faces and perhaps some joking. You never know who is going to take it seriously and rile the troops up again.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 17, 2006, 08:22:06 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 17, 2006, 08:22:06 AM
Digs-
did you make it to the GC ST N game Saturday, you rouser of riles, you?
did you make it to the GC ST N game Saturday, you rouser of riles, you?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on January 17, 2006, 09:33:30 AM
Post by: digs on January 17, 2006, 09:33:30 AM
I did indeed. Great young tallent. Grinnell will be good for a few years with that group, they would be better if the get another big guy to replace nordland.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 17, 2006, 09:57:58 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 17, 2006, 09:57:58 AM
Nordlund is just so important in ways that will never show up in the box. I agree except I think leadership can come from someone small and already here, and leadership will be the issue way more than size, IMHO.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 22, 2006, 03:36:19 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 22, 2006, 03:36:19 PM
And now he is gone for the season. Damn ironic that Digs would be jostling me to respond to his statement about Grinnell without Nordlund on the very day his career is taken away by an ACL/meniscus tear.
Grinnell did play about as intense a game as possible against Lake Forest Saturday and won, so now the adjustment can go full swing til season's end and we really DO get a look at what Grinnell might be like next year. Chamberlain really stepped up BTW, with 22 points and 6 rebounds.
Grinnell did play about as intense a game as possible against Lake Forest Saturday and won, so now the adjustment can go full swing til season's end and we really DO get a look at what Grinnell might be like next year. Chamberlain really stepped up BTW, with 22 points and 6 rebounds.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 23, 2006, 03:25:43 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 23, 2006, 03:25:43 PM
Losing Nordlund is a tough loss for Grinnell, but another SYSTEM team had a great win Saturday night...
Emory and Henry 97
#20 Hampden-Sydney 93
Another interesting SYSTEM side note....when was the last time the top three scoring SYSTEM teams all had under 100 on the same night...?
Emory and Henry 97
Grinnell 94
Redlands 92
Emory and Henry 97
#20 Hampden-Sydney 93
Another interesting SYSTEM side note....when was the last time the top three scoring SYSTEM teams all had under 100 on the same night...?
Emory and Henry 97
Grinnell 94
Redlands 92
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 23, 2006, 03:27:10 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 23, 2006, 03:27:10 PM
Nice catch JR. You don't keep all three of those squads out of triple figures too often.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 23, 2006, 03:31:42 PM
Post by: TeeDub on January 23, 2006, 03:31:42 PM
Interestingly, two of the three won their games as well...something wacky going on in the universe.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on January 23, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Post by: digs on January 23, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Jordis -- nice catch.
Jeffp -- Shame about Nordlund. I regret even asking the question.
Jeffp -- Shame about Nordlund. I regret even asking the question.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 26, 2006, 08:36:15 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 26, 2006, 08:36:15 AM
In post game from the Iowa State blowout at Mizzou last night, they mentioned it as one of the worst home losses in Missouri history, the worst being some game in 1961. However, among the top ten was a 1910 loss to none other than Grinnell, 32-8. Apparently they've been running the score up for damn near a century.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 26, 2006, 08:55:05 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 26, 2006, 08:55:05 AM
GC did take a 22 year break. ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: John Gleich on January 27, 2006, 09:26:10 PM
Post by: John Gleich on January 27, 2006, 09:26:10 PM
Hey jeffp, (or another Grinnell/System disciple)
I was having a conversation with my Stats prof today because we have a semester statistics project to do this semester... can you post (or point me to) "the system" goals? I'm possibly thinking about analyzing it this semester.
Thanks!
I was having a conversation with my Stats prof today because we have a semester statistics project to do this semester... can you post (or point me to) "the system" goals? I'm possibly thinking about analyzing it this semester.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 28, 2006, 09:15:01 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 28, 2006, 09:15:01 AM
Ya know, I've lost track of 'em! (how sad is that?!?) I'll see if I can dig 'em up for you. Also a reminder that inthe first years of the system, Coach A actually had the stats prof in the math dept work up the figures with one of his classes. I know that guy too so I'll try to talk to him in the next few days too. Sorry i can't help right now.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: John Gleich on January 28, 2006, 03:35:54 PM
Post by: John Gleich on January 28, 2006, 03:35:54 PM
Thanks, I appreciate it... I knew I remembered you saying that the stats prof looked at the info, that's actually what gave me the idea to possibly do this... I've gotta figure out exactly what or how I would analyze the data, but what makes this more attractive is the fact that Grinnell has run the "system" for quite a while now... and other teams have followed suit, so there's a lot of data to choose from.
I thought about contacting Coach Arsenault directly... but they're in-season... I'm not going to do that. Like I said, this is a semester project, so it won't be due until May... so I've got some time, and I'll have time to get in contact with im as well.
I thought about contacting Coach Arsenault directly... but they're in-season... I'm not going to do that. Like I said, this is a semester project, so it won't be due until May... so I've got some time, and I'll have time to get in contact with im as well.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on January 30, 2006, 08:23:43 AM
Post by: systemfan86 on January 30, 2006, 08:23:43 AM
PS -
Here's what I have...
1) Take 100 shots a game
2) 50% of those shots are 3 pt attempts
3) Force 32 turnovers
4) Get offensive rebounds on 33% of the shots
5) Take 30 more shots than the opponent
Hope that helps
Here's what I have...
1) Take 100 shots a game
2) 50% of those shots are 3 pt attempts
3) Force 32 turnovers
4) Get offensive rebounds on 33% of the shots
5) Take 30 more shots than the opponent
Hope that helps
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 30, 2006, 10:51:52 AM
Post by: TeeDub on January 30, 2006, 10:51:52 AM
Quote from: systemfan86 on January 30, 2006, 08:23:43 AM
1) Take 100 shots a game
2) 50% of those shots are 3 pt attempts
3) Force 32 turnovers
4) Get offensive rebounds on 33% of the shots
5) Take 30 more shots than the opponent
Jeff....it seems to be getting harder and harder to meet those goals...especially number 3 ;)
JR
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 30, 2006, 11:03:15 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 30, 2006, 11:03:15 AM
JR-
ouch! :D
Nice win for Redlands this weekend BTW!
ouch! :D
Nice win for Redlands this weekend BTW!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 30, 2006, 11:11:58 AM
Post by: TeeDub on January 30, 2006, 11:11:58 AM
Quote from: jeffp on January 30, 2006, 11:03:15 AM
Nice win for Redlands this weekend BTW!
Especially since we shot 16% from 3 in the second half....22% for the game....plus we didn't get the turnover numbers either...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: czarbubar on January 31, 2006, 11:28:13 PM
Post by: czarbubar on January 31, 2006, 11:28:13 PM
Also, in the original system calculus they tried to count trips past the hash marks by other teams "bigs"...I think the number they shot for was 150. That has changed, but I always thought it was the most inventive of the goals.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Interesting piece of history there. I suppose that dated back to when the teams in the MWC weren't quite so athletic and well, in shape.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 01, 2006, 09:31:34 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 01, 2006, 09:31:34 AM
Ah yes! The days when GoonBall reigned supreme!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 10:03:50 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 10:03:50 AM
Grotberg played an extra 16 minutes, but only took an extra five shots. I can imagine Coach A is running those numbers right now with a frown. I know he wanted Grotberg to take 30 a game now that Nordlund is out, but I would think those extra minutes of wear on the player may not be worth the small amount of extra production he got. Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong, but his 4-15 from three is still well, well below what he's been shooting from the arc this year right?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 01, 2006, 10:45:53 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 01, 2006, 10:45:53 AM
yup, it is. He looked tired by the 1/2 way point in the 2nd half, all his treys were in the first but he accomplished one thing i didn't think about even though his shooting from treyland was off. He is so good, they had to keep doubling him, even off the ball (which he was all night since he played the off guard all night). That left everyone else open including Jr, Guzman,Langenhan and Carlson. They produced the triples and JG led the defensse astray. Whenever they left him alone he just totally burned the big men inside. 27 pts in the 1st and 10 in the second all on drives to the basket. This strategy drove me crazy till I finally had the chance to sit down and analyze the effect it had. With all the injuries on this team it was a new twist that worked in unexpected ways.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:01:34 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:01:34 AM
Yeah, I didn't think about that. Those "other guys" are all good, quality players with good shooting touches. They couldn't get open because Lawrence is so good on defense, but against weaker defensive teams it makes sense. Keeping Grotberg on the floor demands a double team at all time, then the GC ball movement works much better. If they decide to call your bluff, you still have Grotberg open for a drive or a three of his own. Very smart.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on February 01, 2006, 11:29:02 AM
Post by: digs on February 01, 2006, 11:29:02 AM
My guess is that if they go this way for a while, John will get better. Even in as good of shape as these kids are it takes the body a while to adjust to the extra minutes--actually it is more the body adjusting to the rest patterns as much as the minutes played. Others have played the minutes in the past -- no doubt John can as well. Now on back to back nights on the road...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:37:34 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:37:34 AM
Well if that's truly the thought behind it (using Grotberg as a decoy) it can be used sporadically or as needed throughout a weekend, maybe giving him 24 or 26 minutes rather than 34 and still help the team. It's a very nice option for a coach to have.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on February 01, 2006, 11:39:38 AM
Post by: digs on February 01, 2006, 11:39:38 AM
Short article about a hs team using the system. Currently ranked #3 in the state of WI.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060131/GPG0205/601310518/1238
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060131/GPG0205/601310518/1238
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:49:36 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 01, 2006, 11:49:36 AM
Are you sure they are using the system? My brother's high school team won a couple state titles running and gunning. They took a lot of threes and averaged 90 ppg with several games over 110. They were also accused of running up the score, even when the end of the bench was in, hitting shots. They never ran anything like the system; they were just good shooters with a fantastic bench and much better than the other teams they played.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: wilburt on February 02, 2006, 08:56:58 AM
Post by: wilburt on February 02, 2006, 08:56:58 AM
Check out this article on the Grinnell system
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060130/SPORTS02/601300384&SearchID=73234431837573
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060130/SPORTS02/601300384&SearchID=73234431837573
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 02, 2006, 09:26:50 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 02, 2006, 09:26:50 AM
Didn't someone just post that here like two days ago?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jeffdc on February 02, 2006, 09:39:00 AM
Post by: jeffdc on February 02, 2006, 09:39:00 AM
Yep - that's the great article about the Grinnell 'Patriots' :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 02, 2006, 09:46:01 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 02, 2006, 09:46:01 AM
Go Pats!! Love that Tom Brady.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 02, 2006, 11:47:26 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 02, 2006, 11:47:26 PM
So, game of HORSE - who wins Brady or Grotberg? ;D
(I go with Brady. Grotberg gets ahead, he'll be in the ICU from the Patriots OL!)
(I go with Brady. Grotberg gets ahead, he'll be in the ICU from the Patriots OL!)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 03, 2006, 08:00:00 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 03, 2006, 08:00:00 AM
Brady wins only if they use a football.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 03, 2006, 08:53:28 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 03, 2006, 08:53:28 AM
Nothing but net.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: czarbubar on February 05, 2006, 11:24:30 PM
Post by: czarbubar on February 05, 2006, 11:24:30 PM
Interesting though that Grotberg was a DI talent who slipped to DIII; the success (in terms of wins and losses) that Grinnell is having is attributable to the same factor that other DIII schools success has been...get quality players who are overlooked/injured/transferred but could have played at a higher level. That is the case in the NESCAC (the DIII league with which I am most familiar) and I would guess in other places. The nice piece of the system is that the "other kids" get a real piece of the action as well!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2006, 08:42:11 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2006, 08:42:11 AM
Jeff, I notice your conscpicuous absence over the weekend. Care to explain a win over Ripon, but a loss to Beloit? I would have expected it to go the other way around.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 06, 2006, 09:19:05 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 06, 2006, 09:19:05 AM
No internet access for 1 1/2 days and I didn't go to the games. I get enough grief for posting about what I see much less for posting about what i don't see. :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2006, 10:35:41 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2006, 10:35:41 AM
OK, I guess that's acceptible. By the way, what's the secret ingredient in the coffee and cinnamon rolls there, I find myself searching for ways to justify a seven hour round trip drive just for food, let alone basketball.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 06, 2006, 11:21:12 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 06, 2006, 11:21:12 AM
Well now, if I told you, you would never have to come back, eh?
All ingredients are legal in most states.
I swear!
Please don't call DEA. Please?
All ingredients are legal in most states.
I swear!
Please don't call DEA. Please?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 06, 2006, 08:06:02 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 06, 2006, 08:06:02 PM
Quote from: czarbubar on February 05, 2006, 11:24:30 PM
Interesting though that Grotberg was a DI talent who slipped to DIII; the success (in terms of wins and losses) that Grinnell is having is attributable to the same factor that other DIII schools success has been...get quality players who are overlooked/injured/transferred but could have played at a higher level. That is the case in the NESCAC (the DIII league with which I am most familiar) and I would guess in other places. The nice piece of the system is that the "other kids" get a real piece of the action as well!
Now, czar, you're gonna have to learn the norms of this site - he ROSE to d3!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 07, 2006, 08:47:55 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 07, 2006, 08:47:55 AM
Yeah, the Missouri Valley Conference is just miffed because we decided to keep him in d3. I think a division that has to pay their players to come is obviously lower than one which requires their players to pay in order to play. It just makes logical sense.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2006, 11:41:20 AM
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2006, 11:41:20 AM
Pretty quality numbers came out of System-West this past week:
Amir Mazarei went 23-50 from 3-point land in two games (14-28 vs. LaVerne and 9-22 vs. Caltech)...not too shabby for consecutive games.
Amir Mazarei went 23-50 from 3-point land in two games (14-28 vs. LaVerne and 9-22 vs. Caltech)...not too shabby for consecutive games.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 11:44:35 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 11:44:35 AM
That's pretty sweet shooting. Even in the system, 69 points in two games on threes is not too shabby. How did he score from the rest of the floor?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 14, 2006, 01:13:54 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 14, 2006, 01:13:54 PM
Jordis Rocks-
Big Deal! All we care about right now are turnovers!
Big Deal! All we care about right now are turnovers!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2006, 01:46:28 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 14, 2006, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: jeffp on February 14, 2006, 01:13:54 PM
Jordis Rocks-
Big Deal! All we care about right now are turnovers!
I'm looking good on that end...Redlands' opponents are up to 30.3/game average...that was XXL in case you forgot.
Amir had 47 pts. and 34 pts. respectively in those two games (he played 22 minutes in each of those games)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 14, 2006, 02:13:42 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 14, 2006, 02:13:42 PM
But Redlands "system" sucks, man! If you had recruited me you would have spent 4 years at the top of the conference by now, I swear on the Monmouth Bible!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 02:54:00 PM
Your references are getting less veiled by the minute, Jeff.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 02:54:19 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2006, 02:54:19 PM
I'm sure we'll hear something from someone about that rather soon.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 15, 2006, 11:57:45 AM
Post by: TeeDub on February 15, 2006, 11:57:45 AM
I was hoping Mazarei would get some TOTW recognition...averaging 40.5 pts/game and 14 3's in a single game.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 15, 2006, 12:08:27 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 15, 2006, 12:08:27 PM
Great to see he has "unslumped", shall we say?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:11:30 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:11:30 PM
Ouch, somebody has it in for me. I went down two points in the last hour. I must have said something really controversial somewhere.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on February 15, 2006, 12:17:27 PM
Post by: digs on February 15, 2006, 12:17:27 PM
Over on the MWC board there was some discussion of playing system games back to back and the toll it takes on the teams. There is some good science out there about the ideal steps for recovery to make a player ready for the next game. Hockey teams play back to back, speed skaters compete back to back, track athletes, Lance Armstrong (and those other guys that rode behind him through France the last 7 years)--what do these athletes do and don't system teams and opponents use some of the same science? Jordis do you have any insight?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:25:28 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:25:28 PM
I know the tour de france guys do about a three hour massage after every stage and then carbo-load 12,000 calories.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:26:33 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 15, 2006, 12:26:33 PM
They also sleep in hyperbaric chambers at night.
That might be out of the budget for most d3 programs, but I'm guessing Grinnell could swing it if they really wanted to.
That might be out of the budget for most d3 programs, but I'm guessing Grinnell could swing it if they really wanted to.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 15, 2006, 02:38:02 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 15, 2006, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: digs on February 15, 2006, 12:17:27 PM
Over on the MWC board there was some discussion of playing system games back to back and the toll it takes on the teams. There is some good science out there about the ideal steps for recovery to make a player ready for the next game. Hockey teams play back to back, speed skaters compete back to back, track athletes, Lance Armstrong (and those other guys that rode behind him through France the last 7 years)--what do these athletes do and don't system teams and opponents use some of the same science? Jordis do you have any insight?
Redlands plays a Wednesday/Saturday format, so the fatigue factor doesn't come into play so much from game to game. What plays into Redlands' opponents, sometimes, is that players who wouldn't normally have the greenlight to shoot, do against the SYSTEM and then those same players think they still have it against more traditional style teams. Unfortunately, those same players don't necessarily have IT when it comes to playing more traditional style defenses.
Redlands has traditionally (a short life to measure) done well in back to back situations. It wasn't until the SYSTEM was unveiled that they won their own 8-team, 3-day tournament. The first tournament championship coming against Pomona Pitzer College who went on to win conference. Redlands, due to the volume of players and limited minutes played per contest had fresh players on day 3, while it appeared the opponents did not. The same happened the following year when Redlands beat Loras and Hayward on way to a second tournament championship.
Add in that SYSTEM teams have little opponent preparation necessary because rarely does their opponent get to run their normal stuff. The SYSTEM games are played the way the SYSTEM dictates, not so much the way the opponent does.
What does that mean....nothing....but I think there are both mental and physical challenges to playing the day after a System game and I think there are mental and physical benefits to a SYSTEM team playing back to back nights.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 16, 2006, 01:02:13 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 16, 2006, 01:02:13 PM
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on February 15, 2006, 11:57:45 AM
I was hoping Mazarei would get some TOTW recognition...averaging 40.5 pts/game and 14 3's in a single game.
Do you know if he was nominated?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 16, 2006, 02:14:10 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 16, 2006, 02:14:10 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 16, 2006, 01:02:13 PMQuote from: Jordis Rocks on February 15, 2006, 11:57:45 AM
I was hoping Mazarei would get some TOTW recognition...averaging 40.5 pts/game and 14 3's in a single game.
Do you know if he was nominated?
I don't know, that is why I was "hoping" he would get some TOTW love...I'll bang the SID again this week since it appears Amir is trying to out do last weeks numbers...last night's57 pts, 5 rebs, 5 assts, 2 steals and ZERO turnovers against the #15 team in the country should help garner some consideration.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 17, 2006, 02:44:36 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 17, 2006, 02:44:36 PM
Does anyone know what the highest single game scoring mark this year is?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:09:36 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:09:36 PM
I think it might be the 57. I don't think I've seen anything else that high, besides Josh Hinz' 50 against Grinnell. I'll do some checking.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:11:48 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:11:48 PM
I found it, through the 12th of February it was Ryan Race of Pitt-Bradford with 55 against Marrietta. I think your boy might have it as of now.
Grotberg is tied with himself, among others at #10 with 45 points. He's the only one in the top ten more than once. Although Kyle Myrick has scored 40+ five times this season.
Grotberg is tied with himself, among others at #10 with 45 points. He's the only one in the top ten more than once. Although Kyle Myrick has scored 40+ five times this season.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 17, 2006, 03:29:50 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 17, 2006, 03:29:50 PM
Thanks Hoops Fan....I wonder how many of the top 10 are against the System vs. how many from the System ???
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:42:38 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2006, 03:42:38 PM
I don't remember is Marrietta is still using the system, if they are 1 is against Marrietta, 1 against Grinnell, 1 against Westminster. There are five games tied in the #10 spot, two of them are by Grotberg and one by a guy from Westminster.
However, not that it matters for this game in particular, I noticed the NCAA didn't have record of Carroll's 150 point game against Grinnell in their system, so there may be a few games missing from this.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 17, 2006, 05:50:24 PM
Post by: smedindy on February 17, 2006, 05:50:24 PM
I do believe Marietta is using it - or a kin to it.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 20, 2006, 08:54:21 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 20, 2006, 08:54:21 AM
I thought so.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 08:46:37 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 08:46:37 AM
Lincoln beats Penn State-Abington 115-83 at home on Senior Night. Senior Kyle Myrick dropped a career high and school record 62 points, breaking Jarrett Kearse's 54 points established February 12. 2005. Myrick also had 7 steals, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists, and has "upped his average to 32.8 ppg. Myrick's topped the 1500 pts, and is No. 2 on Lincoln's All-Time scoring list with 1,512 pts.
So what's up next for Amir, Jordis?
So what's up next for Amir, Jordis?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 10:53:27 AM
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 10:53:27 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 21, 2006, 08:46:37 AM
So what's up next for Amir, Jordis?
Amir did string together a nice run of 4 games, putting in 47, 34, 57 and 45 in consecutive games. With one game remaining on Thursday, he may be inspired by Myrick's performance...unfortunately he's not playing Penn State-Albington, rather one of the top defensive teams in the country, Pomona-Pitzer.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 10:58:41 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 10:58:41 AM
Good luck on that. Myrick is a pretty special player though, under more normal circumstances he probably wouldn't be in d3 anyway.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 21, 2006, 11:28:32 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 21, 2006, 11:28:32 AM
Hoops Fan-
What is his story? I'm not familiar with him or Lincoln out side of reading the NCAA stats every week.
What is his story? I'm not familiar with him or Lincoln out side of reading the NCAA stats every week.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 12:06:30 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 12:06:30 PM
ESPN.com did a story on him a while back. Here it is. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?id=2290905) He grew up in a rough area, spent some time in prison and is now turning his life around. He's 26 and will probably be invited to one of the pre-draft camps. I'm guessing he'll be a 2nd round NBA pick somewhere. He's very connected to Philly natives in the NBA. Great d3 story.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on February 21, 2006, 12:49:01 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on February 21, 2006, 12:49:01 PM
Thanks for the link, Hoops! I remember the story now!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 12:54:34 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 12:54:34 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 21, 2006, 12:06:30 PM
ESPN.com did a story on him a while back. Here it is. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?id=2290905) He grew up in a rough area, spent some time in prison and is now turning his life around. He's 26 and will probably be invited to one of the pre-draft camps. I'm guessing he'll be a 2nd round NBA pick somewhere. He's very connected to Philly natives in the NBA. Great d3 story.
(Amir Mazarei) Nobody's done a story on him, he grew up in a modest neighborhood north of Los Angeles, never been to prison. He's a 21 year old junior in college, Co-Sida 2nd Team All-District with a 3.5 GPA in Accounting. Averages 25.5 points per game, not connected to anyone in the NBA and won't enter the draft....Great d3 story.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 01:01:43 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 01:01:43 PM
I think they are all great d3 stories, especially when he goes into medical school or law school or to wall street. He got to play ball and gain all those things d1 schools use to jusitfy the money they spend on their programs, but he worked hard to pay for them.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 01:07:10 PM
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 01:07:10 PM
Jordis, that sounded a little defensive...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 01:21:52 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 01:07:10 PM
Jordis, that sounded a little defensive...
I can see that now that you say it, but not my intention....I was just trying to illustrate that there are many great d3 stories out there... I am extremely impressed with Myrick's ability and desire to continue on given his life's circumstance. But I am also equally impressed by Day Ivy of Caltech, Amir Mazarei of Redlands, Paul Nordlund of Grinnell, Jordan Kemper of Wheaton, Keven Bradley of Lawrence, Adam Dauksas of Illinois Wesleyan, Chase Curtiss of Puget Sound and thousands of others across the d3 country.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 01:26:58 PM
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 01:26:58 PM
But we're here and don't need to be reminded of it. The outside world does...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 01:50:13 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 01:50:13 PM
now who is getting defensive? ;)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 03:39:37 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 03:39:37 PM
We're all defensive; I'm sure there's someone in all of our lives who we have to defend out obssessive use of the d3 boards to. We've been trained to be defensive and its d3's fault. What have they ever done for us? The just forget us and give us crappy tournaments. It's like a horrible relationship and we're all too weak to leave.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 04:00:13 PM
Post by: TeeDub on February 21, 2006, 04:00:13 PM
bad day???
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 04:01:48 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 04:01:48 PM
Sometimes I get carried away with the sarcasm. It's funny to me; I guess you have to be here.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 04:09:48 PM
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 04:09:48 PM
;)
I got it! I got it! Do I win a prize??? ;D
I got it! I got it! Do I win a prize??? ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 04:18:28 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 21, 2006, 04:18:28 PM
Here's your prize smed,
"An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 18 hours.
Back"
Sorry it didn't work out.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 06:18:39 PM
Post by: smedindy on February 21, 2006, 06:18:39 PM
You can remember! I have faith in you! :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 22, 2006, 08:46:38 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 22, 2006, 08:46:38 AM
There; are you happy now?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on February 22, 2006, 09:01:16 AM
Post by: smedindy on February 22, 2006, 09:01:16 AM
;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on February 24, 2006, 09:49:15 AM
Post by: digs on February 24, 2006, 09:49:15 AM
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on February 21, 2006, 01:50:13 PM
now who is getting defensive? ;)
Why all the defensive talk on the system thread--I thought there was no defense in system ball.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 24, 2006, 10:16:30 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 24, 2006, 10:16:30 AM
Oh don't start that again.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on February 24, 2006, 10:43:12 AM
Post by: TeeDub on February 24, 2006, 10:43:12 AM
You'd think in this time of iPods, MP3, etc...we wouldn't come across that ol' broken record...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on March 01, 2006, 05:52:28 PM
Post by: TeeDub on March 01, 2006, 05:52:28 PM
How many SYSTEM teams are in the tourney?....oops, nevermind.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on March 01, 2006, 07:56:28 PM
Post by: smedindy on March 01, 2006, 07:56:28 PM
Ah. Well. It happens. The subset of teams playing the system is small, and they seem to be (except for Westminster PA) in conferences where the deck is rather much stacked against them anyway.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 08:44:48 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 08:44:48 AM
It wasn't the best year to be a system team, sure they had some good successes, but they had a lot more competition too.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 02:12:57 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 02:12:57 PM
Speaking of which, how did each of the system teams finish out the year?
I know Grinnell came in 3rd in the MWC and probably could have earned a tourney spot in many other conferences.
I know Grinnell came in 3rd in the MWC and probably could have earned a tourney spot in many other conferences.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 03:56:32 PM
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 03:56:32 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2006, 02:12:57 PM
....and probably could have earned a tourney spot it many other conferences.
I wonder how many teams can make that claim...my guess is A LOT.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 03:58:49 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 03:58:49 PM
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on March 02, 2006, 03:56:32 PMQuote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2006, 02:12:57 PM
....and probably could have earned a tourney spot it many other conferences.
I wonder how many teams can make that claim...my guess is A LOT.
I'm not so sure its a lot, but a few.
How did Redlands finish up?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:05:01 PM
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:05:01 PM
tied for 6th in the conference, but we could have finished 5th in many conferences across the US... ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 04:07:10 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2006, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on March 02, 2006, 04:05:01 PM
tied for 6th in the conference, but we could have finished 5th in many conferences across the US... ;D
You had a solid end of the year there, bright hopes for next season, right?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:08:46 PM
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:08:46 PM
Mr. Mazarei is back...that doesn't stink...
We need some pieces to the puzzle and some returning leadership and we'll be fine...
We need some pieces to the puzzle and some returning leadership and we'll be fine...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on March 02, 2006, 04:29:42 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on March 02, 2006, 04:29:42 PM
a new grinnell basketball shirt won't hurt any either, will it? ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:36:43 PM
Post by: TeeDub on March 02, 2006, 04:36:43 PM
at least when I'm changing the oil in my car.....just kidding, Jeff :D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on March 02, 2006, 05:13:45 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on March 02, 2006, 05:13:45 PM
you should try fresh oil instead of running the old stuff through a cotton 't'. Did "Wad" teach you that too? ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gray Fox on July 20, 2006, 10:01:20 AM
Post by: Gray Fox on July 20, 2006, 10:01:20 AM
According to comments on the SCIAC board, this will be the last season for the Redlands coach. I assume this means a change of styles.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 20, 2006, 11:36:50 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 20, 2006, 11:36:50 AM
That could be an interesting development. Is he leaving of his own volition or is he being removed? That might say a lot about the school's commitment to the System.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 21, 2006, 04:00:50 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 21, 2006, 04:00:50 PM
Nice article on the Redlands story, Pat. Do we have any word if they plan to keep playing system ball?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 21, 2006, 04:02:12 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on July 21, 2006, 04:02:12 PM
They plan to play it this year -- after that I am sure it depends on the coach. :)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on July 22, 2006, 12:39:26 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on July 22, 2006, 12:39:26 PM
Well now, if favorite 'fan' Jordis Rocks has anything to say about it, they will keep playing system ball...bet yer bottom dollar!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on July 24, 2006, 11:08:16 AM
Post by: TeeDub on July 24, 2006, 11:08:16 AM
Don't forget, there is still a season to go. I'm most interested in the Mazarei vs. Grotberg matchup...while I wish it was head to head, I'll have to be content with it being a comparison of stat sheets.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on July 24, 2006, 11:29:29 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on July 24, 2006, 11:29:29 AM
Until GC and Redlands meets in the West Region final anyway! ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 24, 2006, 11:43:40 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on July 24, 2006, 11:43:40 AM
Plus you have to remember to divide all of Grotberg's numbers by pi and then factor in the rotation of the earth, which he keeps moving with his mind at all times.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: digs on July 24, 2006, 03:04:22 PM
Post by: digs on July 24, 2006, 03:04:22 PM
Jordis-
Just wondering if you shouldn't change your name to Dilana Rocks?
Just wondering if you shouldn't change your name to Dilana Rocks?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on July 25, 2006, 11:20:39 AM
Post by: TeeDub on July 25, 2006, 11:20:39 AM
While she does rock too, I'll stick with my loyalty to Jordis...but thanks for the recognition...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2006, 12:14:20 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 21, 2006, 12:14:20 PM
Ok, does anyone have a count on how many system teams are out there this year? Or semi-system teams??
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 21, 2006, 01:02:36 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 21, 2006, 01:02:36 PM
I haven't heard of anyone starting, but I haven't heard of any dropping either.
I also wonder if UPS is going to play a little more system type ball with their new coach. They have been scoring even more than they usually do this first weekend.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2006, 07:42:34 AM
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 22, 2006, 07:42:34 AM
With Gary Smith retiring after this season, you have to wonder if this is the last year that Redlands will be utilizing the Grinnell system.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 24, 2006, 12:18:03 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 24, 2006, 12:18:03 PM
It may very well be Redlands last year playing system ball, hard to say yet. MacMurray is no longer playing the style, but System Ball is taking hold at HS levels everywhere with over 200 teams playing one version or another at HS, NAIA and DIII level-especially on the women's side. VMI is the only DI team playing a real version of the System and are off to a fair start. I beleive they broke the DI scoring record for a single game several nights ago.
Sager-
Your man Bosco proved how great a coach he is Saturday by beating Grinnell with a barely better than mediocre team. They were VERY well coached-even if Grinnell's sputtering offense aided their win.
It ain't dead yet!
Sager-
Your man Bosco proved how great a coach he is Saturday by beating Grinnell with a barely better than mediocre team. They were VERY well coached-even if Grinnell's sputtering offense aided their win.
It ain't dead yet!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 25, 2006, 08:56:54 AM
Post by: smedindy on November 25, 2006, 08:56:54 AM
They actually just broke the Big South record for points in a game. 156.
The all time record is Loyola Marymount, who beat US International 186-140 on January 5, 1991.
The all time record is Loyola Marymount, who beat US International 186-140 on January 5, 1991.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 25, 2006, 01:29:34 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 25, 2006, 01:29:34 PM
I meant to say that the record was for DI vs DI. Correct me if I'm wrong, but US International is not/was not a DI team, therefore it isn't an official DI record just as Drake University's 162 point against Grinnell wawsn't considered a DI record.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 25, 2006, 03:39:48 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 25, 2006, 03:39:48 PM
Yes, US International was D-1. The school soon went out of business, but they definitely were Division 1. If I remember, they had a good player, Kevin Bradshaw, who scored 72 points in that game, which is a record for D-1 players against D-1.
VMI was the one NOT playing a D-1 team. Virginia Intermont is NAIA II.
VMI was the one NOT playing a D-1 team. Virginia Intermont is NAIA II.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on November 25, 2006, 04:46:43 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on November 25, 2006, 04:46:43 PM
Yup, my original source Emailed (most of) that info to me after my second post. Oh well, at least it gave you something to do today, eh? ;D :D ;D
VMI is still the 1st and only DI team playing a very close version of system ball.
VMI is still the 1st and only DI team playing a very close version of system ball.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Redlands Rick on November 28, 2006, 10:28:55 PM
Post by: Redlands Rick on November 28, 2006, 10:28:55 PM
I made a post earlier today under the West Region, SCIAC thread. Although I have watched this system of ball for a long time, and since I am new to this board, I did not know if or how I could cross-post the same entry in asking several questions that members who are familiar with this system could help answer.
Please read my questions, and any help you can give me is appreciated.
Redlands Rick
Please read my questions, and any help you can give me is appreciated.
Redlands Rick
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 08, 2006, 04:52:15 AM
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 08, 2006, 04:52:15 AM
Quote from: jeffp on November 24, 2006, 12:18:03 PMSager-
Your man Bosco proved how great a coach he is Saturday by beating Grinnell with a barely better than mediocre team. They were VERY well coached-even if Grinnell's sputtering offense aided their win.
Jeff, Bosko Djurickovic is the only person in the history of D3 men's basketball who has five national championship rings in his possession. Saying that Carthage is "very well-coached" is like saying that the sun came up yesterday.
As for Carthage being "barely better than mediocre", I'm reserving judgment until I see the Red Men for myself. They may have been picked to finish close to the bottom of the CCIW by the other coaches and by most of the league's observers, but knocking off both Calvin and Hope within the space of eighteen hours isn't chicken feed.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 08, 2006, 09:03:08 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 08, 2006, 09:03:08 AM
That's true. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether Carthage is much better than expected or if the CCIW is just that much better than everyone else this year.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 08, 2006, 04:58:52 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 08, 2006, 04:58:52 PM
Sager-
Yes I know he has 5. Yes I know he is the only one. Yes I know. I know. I know. I even know he coached at your beloved North Park!
That is why I said he proved how GREAT a coach he was. Take a compliment, will ya?
BTW- i do think Carthage may be better than I thought, but they didn't really show it against a Grinnell team that WAS TERRIBLE the night they played. They are, however, fairly well coached. ;D :D ;D
Yes I know he has 5. Yes I know he is the only one. Yes I know. I know. I know. I even know he coached at your beloved North Park!
That is why I said he proved how GREAT a coach he was. Take a compliment, will ya?
BTW- i do think Carthage may be better than I thought, but they didn't really show it against a Grinnell team that WAS TERRIBLE the night they played. They are, however, fairly well coached. ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 08, 2006, 05:04:58 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 08, 2006, 05:04:58 PM
Jeff, this is the most cliched thing I could ever say to you, but dude have you thought about lowering the caffeine intake? You've been a bitter little hippie so far this season. What happened to the laid back guy?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 09, 2006, 04:07:15 PM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 09, 2006, 04:07:15 PM
Hoops Fan-
I just went back and reviewed every one of my posts on every section of this board since August 30 and outside of gettin' a bit pissy about the football loss to St Norbert I don't have a clue where your assessment of my mood is coming from! I'm fine, a little sleep deprived, and way pissed about what happened to my favorite poster; enough so to limit how much I write this year. So tell me where you find the bitter little hippie? Is my jab at the boards pedantic master too much or something?
I just went back and reviewed every one of my posts on every section of this board since August 30 and outside of gettin' a bit pissy about the football loss to St Norbert I don't have a clue where your assessment of my mood is coming from! I'm fine, a little sleep deprived, and way pissed about what happened to my favorite poster; enough so to limit how much I write this year. So tell me where you find the bitter little hippie? Is my jab at the boards pedantic master too much or something?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2006, 08:13:01 AM
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 11, 2006, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: jeffp on December 09, 2006, 04:07:15 PM
Hoops Fan-
I just went back and reviewed every one of my posts on every section of this board since August 30 and outside of gettin' a bit pissy about the football loss to St Norbert I don't have a clue where your assessment of my mood is coming from! I'm fine, a little sleep deprived, and way pissed about what happened to my favorite poster; enough so to limit how much I write this year. So tell me where you find the bitter little hippie? Is my jab at the boards pedantic master too much or something?
HF is right. You do need to back off on the caffeine.
You said that Bosko proved how great a coach he was in the Carthage @ Grinnell game. Some compliment. Why in the world should anyone who follows D3 men's basketball think that Bosko has anything to prove at this point? The whole point of my previous post is that the man doesn't have to prove a damned thing. Not to you, not to me, not to anybody.
Pedantic enough for you?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on December 11, 2006, 08:38:34 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on December 11, 2006, 08:38:34 AM
Well, good damn grief! You can both take a flying leap!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 11, 2006, 09:13:55 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 11, 2006, 09:13:55 AM
I was referring to the whole of the boards. I just got the impression there was some bitterness there, but, per your explanation, there is and it's entirely understandable. Carry on.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2006, 03:36:55 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 13, 2006, 03:36:55 PM
It's not really "the system," but it seems to be as close as a Division 1 team has gotten yet (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?id=2695665&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos1). The article did mention the media timeouts, which we've always discussed as a potential barrier for effective system ball at the D1 level.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: mrmike88 on December 16, 2006, 06:49:12 PM
Post by: mrmike88 on December 16, 2006, 06:49:12 PM
This article on VMI mentions that the head coach modeled their offense specifically after Grinnell's system:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/bill_trocchi/12/14/mid.major.report/index.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/bill_trocchi/12/14/mid.major.report/index.html
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 18, 2006, 09:26:24 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 18, 2006, 09:26:24 AM
I'm sure all the GC fans out there appreciate being called a "d3 power."
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 18, 2006, 09:26:54 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 18, 2006, 09:26:54 AM
Maybe someone should let the author know that "the system" already has a name.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: heatlee on January 01, 2007, 05:45:02 PM
Post by: heatlee on January 01, 2007, 05:45:02 PM
UC Riverside has dropped "The System" from their vocabulary. It seems they finally realized that it takes talent to win, and not a "system".
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 25, 2007, 08:50:11 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 25, 2007, 08:50:11 AM
Redlands scores a system win over a ranked team beating Oxy last night. From everything I hear, it was a great game. Redlands could be sneaking up on people.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hjmphelp on January 25, 2007, 11:49:23 AM
Post by: hjmphelp on January 25, 2007, 11:49:23 AM
Too bad this is Smiths last year; it appears that Redlands has finally busted through the 'glass ceiling' and developed enough heart to go with the game.
Jordis, whaddiya say about that?
Jordis, whaddiya say about that?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: TeeDub on January 25, 2007, 11:58:11 AM
Post by: TeeDub on January 25, 2007, 11:58:11 AM
I think that in this, as in many other 'systems', it so often comes down to the kids. When the young people believe they can win, that goes a long way.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: mrmike88 on February 16, 2007, 09:12:47 AM
Post by: mrmike88 on February 16, 2007, 09:12:47 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/02/15/hoop.thoughts/index.html
This morning's article makes Duquesne's new strategy sound very system-like, and even mentions how it stacks up to Grinnel's version.
This morning's article makes Duquesne's new strategy sound very system-like, and even mentions how it stacks up to Grinnel's version.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on October 02, 2007, 10:38:57 AM
Post by: systemfan86 on October 02, 2007, 10:38:57 AM
Grinnell travels to Redlands this year. Is Redlands still playing the 'system' style of ball with their new coach?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gray Fox on October 10, 2007, 05:43:21 PM
Post by: Gray Fox on October 10, 2007, 05:43:21 PM
Quote from: systemfan86 on October 02, 2007, 10:38:57 AMI don't think so, but you might ask this question on the SCIAC board.
Grinnell travels to Redlands this year. Is Redlands still playing the 'system' style of ball with their new coach?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on October 11, 2007, 08:25:02 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on October 11, 2007, 08:25:02 AM
I read an interview with the new coach shortly after he was hired and he seemed on the fence over whether to run the old style for one more year or not. I can't imagine you could find success being half committed to system ball.
I'm guessing they'll keep running up-tempo, though, I know the pace of the game really improved attendance for them.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: systemfan86 on October 25, 2007, 09:44:18 AM
Post by: systemfan86 on October 25, 2007, 09:44:18 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 11, 2007, 08:25:02 AMIn an interesting twist, the recently retired Redlands coach is listed on the Grinnell website as an assistant coach. Very interesting when you consider that Grinnell is traveling to Redlands to play this year.
I read an interview with the new coach shortly after he was hired and he seemed on the fence over whether to run the old style for one more year or not. I can't imagine you could find success being half committed to system ball.
I'm guessing they'll keep running up-tempo, though, I know the pace of the game really improved attendance for them.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Greek Tragedy on January 30, 2008, 05:37:12 PM
Post by: Greek Tragedy on January 30, 2008, 05:37:12 PM
What do these coaches have in common?
Bo Ryan
John Calipari
Mike Krzyzewski
Roy Williams
David Arsenault
The are all innovators of the game (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/cbb.innovators/content.5.html)
Bo Ryan
John Calipari
Mike Krzyzewski
Roy Williams
David Arsenault
The are all innovators of the game (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0801/cbb.innovators/content.5.html)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 15, 2008, 12:48:14 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 15, 2008, 12:48:14 AM
VMI, the D1 school that runs a semi-system upset Kentucky tonight. Granted it's not the same old Kentucky, but it is the same old VMI, so that has to count for something.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 01, 2009, 07:20:19 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 01, 2009, 07:20:19 PM
Ok, so the weather looks like it will cooperate. I think I'll be heading up to Iowa Saturday to see GC take on Wheaton.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: John Gleich on October 15, 2009, 03:04:40 PM
Post by: John Gleich on October 15, 2009, 03:04:40 PM
It looks like North Chicago High School (a suburb about 30 miles north of the city) is going to be tinkering with the System...
LINK (http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/sports/bonato/1810644,5_2_WA07_EXTRAPOINT_S1-091007.article#)
LINK (http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/sports/bonato/1810644,5_2_WA07_EXTRAPOINT_S1-091007.article#)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 15, 2009, 10:10:15 PM
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 15, 2009, 10:10:15 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on October 15, 2009, 03:04:40 PM
It looks like North Chicago High School (a suburb about 30 miles north of the city) is going to be tinkering with the System...
LINK (http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/sports/bonato/1810644,5_2_WA07_EXTRAPOINT_S1-091007.article#)
Incidentally, Aaron Coleman, the son of North Chicago's head coach, started for North Park earlier in this decade.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: madzillagd on May 15, 2012, 06:19:06 PM
Post by: madzillagd on May 15, 2012, 06:19:06 PM
I was looking around the board at old stuff when waiting for my access and ran across this topic. Not sure if anyone is around that was interested in it at the time, but just a heads up that Gary Smith, former coach at Redlands who ran the Grinnell system wrote a book about it.
It's called Coaching the System by Gary Smith & Doug Porter. Here's the amazon link to it... http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-System-complete-basketballs-explosive/dp/146113157X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337119836&sr=8-1
A good read if you are into the X & Os of the game.
It's called Coaching the System by Gary Smith & Doug Porter. Here's the amazon link to it... http://www.amazon.com/Coaching-System-complete-basketballs-explosive/dp/146113157X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337119836&sr=8-1
A good read if you are into the X & Os of the game.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: augie77 on January 08, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Post by: augie77 on January 08, 2013, 05:07:57 PM
Did Grinnell's blatant plan to set a scoring record--and the resultant attention--increase or decrease interest in the System from the standpoint of other coaches taking it up?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2013, 06:23:24 PM
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2013, 06:23:24 PM
Dunno, but the infection has spread to our conference. ;) The North Central women's team is now using the System. The Cards have adopted it through the means of adding an assistant coach who had been the guy who installed the System for the Olivet Nazarene women's team.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
And the North Central women were just totally blown-out by Wheaton (it was 100-50 before they salvaged a bit of 'face' with a closing 17-6 run against the very bottom of the Wheaton bench). The System doesn't work so well when you miss 44 of 53 shots from downtown! For the season, they are shooting a deplorable 26% from long distance. For the System to work, you have to recruit for the System; just imposing it on athletes without the requisite skills is a recipe for disaster. (Though with their current personnel, it is hard to say if they would have done any better with a more traditional approach.)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2013, 09:29:22 PM
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2013, 09:29:22 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
And the North Central women were just totally blown-out by Wheaton (it was 100-50 before they salvaged a bit of 'face' with a closing 17-6 run against the very bottom of the Wheaton bench). The System doesn't work so well when you miss 44 of 53 shots from downtown! For the season, they are shooting a deplorable 26% from long distance. For the System to work, you have to recruit for the System; just imposing it on athletes without the requisite skills is a recipe for disaster. (Though with their current personnel, it is hard to say if they would have done any better with a more traditional approach.)
I would suggest that unless you actually watch them play and watch them practice, you're not qualified to say what system any team should be running.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 11:27:55 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 11:27:55 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 08, 2013, 09:29:22 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2013, 06:36:02 PM
And the North Central women were just totally blown-out by Wheaton (it was 100-50 before they salvaged a bit of 'face' with a closing 17-6 run against the very bottom of the Wheaton bench). The System doesn't work so well when you miss 44 of 53 shots from downtown! For the season, they are shooting a deplorable 26% from long distance. For the System to work, you have to recruit for the System; just imposing it on athletes without the requisite skills is a recipe for disaster. (Though with their current personnel, it is hard to say if they would have done any better with a more traditional approach.)
I would suggest that unless you actually watch them play and watch them practice, you're not qualified to say what system any team should be running.
And I didn't suggest whether or nor a different approach would work any better. But, with all due respect, if you shoot 26% from beyond the arc, The System is NOT tailor-made for you.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
Post by: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
Of course, it may be a building year. They could have been even worse without the system.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 09, 2013, 10:21:38 AM
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 09, 2013, 10:21:38 AM
Quote from: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
Of course, it may be a building year. They could have been even worse without the system.
Exactly. Just looking at numbers and saying they shouldn't do something is ridiculous. First of all, the expectations are different for women's basketball, and secondly, who is to say they would do better in a traditional system? North Central wasn't lighting the world on fire last year without it. By comparison, the other Loyola Marymount/Grinnell system teams are shooting 27.3 and 23.3 percent from beyond the arc.
And here's the thing -- Grinnell doesn't shoot any better, comparatively.
At 31.9 percent, Grinnell is ranked 243rd of 328 teams that meet the D-III qualification of 5 made threes per game, three-quarters of the way down the list.
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB
At 26.2 percent, North Central is ranked 295th of 433 teams, two-thirds of the way down the list. (For some reason, the NCAA doesn't apply a minimum of threes made to this women's stat report.)
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=WBB
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: RogK on January 09, 2013, 11:33:47 AM
Post by: RogK on January 09, 2013, 11:33:47 AM
What would you-all say is the differential between what is considered good FG pcts in D3 men's compared to women's? I'm thinking that 50 pct 2FG for women may be equal to around 57 pct for men for 2FGs? And in the women's game, making 33 pct of 3FGs is good, but you'd want men to shoot closer to 40 pct? These differences would of course be based on men being generally bigger and stronger, plus the fact that both genders use the same 3 pt line now and the same hoop height etc.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: frank uible on January 09, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
Post by: frank uible on January 09, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
But don't the men and the women play with different size basketballs?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: dahlby on January 09, 2013, 03:17:06 PM
Post by: dahlby on January 09, 2013, 03:17:06 PM
Yes.
Wiki lists the men's ball at 29.5" in circumference and the women's at 28.5".
Wiki lists the men's ball at 29.5" in circumference and the women's at 28.5".
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 09, 2013, 03:25:30 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 09, 2013, 03:25:30 PM
And I'm glad - I always bought my sons women's balls until they were 11 or 12, and with their small hands, I think it was helpful in ball control.
Pat, I never said NC would necessarily do any better with any other approach. After all, they were 1-13 in conference play last year, so it would be hard to do much worse. Where it does differ (if they care) is the possibility of blow out losses. Their loss to Wheaton was about the same this year as their combined losses last season (18 and 22), and they only lost one game that badly all last season (at IWU, who won the national title, so no real disgrace in that).
Pat, I never said NC would necessarily do any better with any other approach. After all, they were 1-13 in conference play last year, so it would be hard to do much worse. Where it does differ (if they care) is the possibility of blow out losses. Their loss to Wheaton was about the same this year as their combined losses last season (18 and 22), and they only lost one game that badly all last season (at IWU, who won the national title, so no real disgrace in that).
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
Post by: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
Isolated incident. Anomalous result. Must also correct for the pace of offense and defense. Brush up on your Ken Pom, too.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 09, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 09, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 09, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
Isolated incident. Anomalous result. Must also correct for the pace of offense and defense. Brush up on your Ken Pom, too.
Since it is still very early in the conference season, time will tell whether or not it is 'isolated' or 'anomalous'. I'm on record in the CCIW room predicting several blowouts at the hands of the top teams. That is the hazard of The System.
Now, of course, if you are 'a loss is a loss' sort-of guy, so what? But I would think that blowouts can be quite disheartening for teenagers.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: augie77 on January 09, 2013, 04:00:32 PM
Post by: augie77 on January 09, 2013, 04:00:32 PM
Agree. Forty point losses don't do much for the confidence of a struggling team.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: RogK on January 09, 2013, 04:32:09 PM
Post by: RogK on January 09, 2013, 04:32:09 PM
In the last month, the NC women have won by 53, won by 42, lost by 20, won by 14, lost by 7 and lost by 39.
If they lose to Carthage tonight and to Augie on Saturday, then we can call them a struggling team.
Augie, by the way, has already played a System team this season and won easily (83-56 over Knox) despite committing 47 TOs! Augie won the rebounding 71-30.
If they lose to Carthage tonight and to Augie on Saturday, then we can call them a struggling team.
Augie, by the way, has already played a System team this season and won easily (83-56 over Knox) despite committing 47 TOs! Augie won the rebounding 71-30.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Bombers798891 on January 09, 2013, 09:56:31 PM
Post by: Bombers798891 on January 09, 2013, 09:56:31 PM
Remember, a team running a Grinnell system doesn't need to hit as many three pointers because the system is designed to give them more shots per game, and more three pointers. You trade efficiency for volume
In Grinnell's 2011-2012 season, they shot 34% from three, but they took an average of 21 more field goals a game than their opponents, and over 40 more three pointers. So even though their opponents shot significantly better from the floor (58% to 43%) and three (39% to 34%), they won consistently.
In Grinnell's 2011-2012 season, they shot 34% from three, but they took an average of 21 more field goals a game than their opponents, and over 40 more three pointers. So even though their opponents shot significantly better from the floor (58% to 43%) and three (39% to 34%), they won consistently.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: frank uible on January 09, 2013, 10:21:45 PM
Post by: frank uible on January 09, 2013, 10:21:45 PM
Once upon a time your correspondent worked with a struggling business whose wags used to say about it, "we sell below cost but make it up in volume".
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Bombers798891 on January 09, 2013, 11:50:01 PM
Post by: Bombers798891 on January 09, 2013, 11:50:01 PM
As far as this being the "best" system for NC to run, I don't think we can say that a team shooting 26% from the arc is not-tailor made for the system. They might be exactly the *kind* of players you need, just not that good.
To me, it's like Springfield running the triple option. In 2001 the team averaged 23 points a game. In 2000, they had averaged 43. In 2002 they averaged 37.
Does this mean Springfield's 2001 team didn't have the right players to run the triple option? Or did they just have a bad year and not get the quality of players they wanted?
To me, it's like Springfield running the triple option. In 2001 the team averaged 23 points a game. In 2000, they had averaged 43. In 2002 they averaged 37.
Does this mean Springfield's 2001 team didn't have the right players to run the triple option? Or did they just have a bad year and not get the quality of players they wanted?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Just Bill on November 20, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Post by: Just Bill on November 20, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Looks like Greenville has jumped aboard the System train. Woo Woo!
http://www.sliac.org/sports/mbkb/2015-16/teams/greenville?view=gamelog
http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/news/detail.html?id=544b0cae-79de-45bd-bff2-f025baecdd05&title=men-s-basketball-debuts-exciting-offense-falls-150-117
http://www.sliac.org/sports/mbkb/2015-16/teams/greenville?view=gamelog
http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/news/detail.html?id=544b0cae-79de-45bd-bff2-f025baecdd05&title=men-s-basketball-debuts-exciting-offense-falls-150-117
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 20, 2015, 04:50:49 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on November 20, 2015, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on November 20, 2015, 04:18:28 PM
Looks like Greenville has jumped aboard the System train. Woo Woo!
http://www.sliac.org/sports/mbkb/2015-16/teams/greenville?view=gamelog
http://www.greenville.edu/athletics/news/detail.html?id=544b0cae-79de-45bd-bff2-f025baecdd05&title=men-s-basketball-debuts-exciting-offense-falls-150-117
I'll be very interested in seeing how Greenville fares against SLIAC-level teams. The System can't overcome major talent disparities (IWU's previous points record came in a 2001 tournament game against Grinnell, a 132-91 win), but it can wreak havoc when the talent levels are comparable.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 05:50:32 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 05:50:32 PM
Still too early to evaluate (they may not yet have the right players for System ball; after all, all except perhaps the freshmen were recruited for 'traditional' ball), but after severe growing pains (they started 1-8 and 2-10), they have now won 4 of the last 5. It appears that in their first System season they will finish with about the same record they have had in recent years.
Now someone has to arrange a match against Grinnell! If TWO System teams meet, do they cancel each other out or does the scoreboard explode?! ;D
Now someone has to arrange a match against Grinnell! If TWO System teams meet, do they cancel each other out or does the scoreboard explode?! ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on January 24, 2016, 08:00:02 PM
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on January 24, 2016, 08:00:02 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 05:50:32 PMI think they start shooting 3s from 60 feet like Steph Curry ;D
Still too early to evaluate (they may not yet have the right players for System ball; after all, all except perhaps the freshmen were recruited for 'traditional' ball), but after severe growing pains (they started 1-8 and 2-10), they have now won 4 of the last 5. It appears that in their first System season they will finish with about the same record they have had in recent years.
Now someone has to arrange a match against Grinnell! If TWO System teams meet, do they cancel each other out or does the scoreboard explode?! ;D
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 09:05:39 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 09:05:39 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on January 24, 2016, 08:00:02 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 05:50:32 PMI think they start shooting 3s from 60 feet like Steph Curry ;D
Still too early to evaluate (they may not yet have the right players for System ball; after all, all except perhaps the freshmen were recruited for 'traditional' ball), but after severe growing pains (they started 1-8 and 2-10), they have now won 4 of the last 5. It appears that in their first System season they will finish with about the same record they have had in recent years.
Now someone has to arrange a match against Grinnell! If TWO System teams meet, do they cancel each other out or does the scoreboard explode?! ;D
Since I assume neither team has any Steph Curry's on the roster, that should make for the most boring athletic encounter in the history of sports! :o
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 05, 2016, 11:55:53 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 05, 2016, 11:55:53 PM
Once they learned 'The System', Greenville has now won 7 of their last 8. They'll probably still finish within the range of their last decade's finishes, but who knows what next year might hold (unless the SLIAC's other teams have figured them out).
Anyone tracking who besides Grinnell and Greenville (men) and NCC (women) is still running 'The System'?
Anyone tracking who besides Grinnell and Greenville (men) and NCC (women) is still running 'The System'?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Gregory Sager on February 08, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
Post by: Gregory Sager on February 08, 2016, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 09:05:39 PMQuote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on January 24, 2016, 08:00:02 PMQuote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 24, 2016, 05:50:32 PMI think they start shooting 3s from 60 feet like Steph Curry ;D
Still too early to evaluate (they may not yet have the right players for System ball; after all, all except perhaps the freshmen were recruited for 'traditional' ball), but after severe growing pains (they started 1-8 and 2-10), they have now won 4 of the last 5. It appears that in their first System season they will finish with about the same record they have had in recent years.
Now someone has to arrange a match against Grinnell! If TWO System teams meet, do they cancel each other out or does the scoreboard explode?! ;D
Since I assume neither team has any Steph Curry's on the roster, that should make for the most boring athletic encounter in the history of sports! :o
On the contrary, I think that the pursuit of long rebounds after missed treys is one of the more exciting aspects of a basketball game. It's part speed, part effort, part guesswork -- and frequent collisions.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jaybird44 on February 09, 2016, 08:14:32 PM
Post by: jaybird44 on February 09, 2016, 08:14:32 PM
Sounds like a NASCAR race...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: hopefan on February 09, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
Post by: hopefan on February 09, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
I don't know if they were running the system, but SOMETHING was going on down in Texas last night
University of the Ozarks 114 Concordia (Texas) 144 Final
University of the Ozarks 114 Concordia (Texas) 144 Final
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 09, 2016, 09:51:49 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 09, 2016, 09:51:49 PM
Quote from: hopefan on February 09, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
I don't know if they were running the system, but SOMETHING was going on down in Texas last night
University of the Ozarks 114 Concordia (Texas) 144 Final
Not at all a system boxscore, but 12-18 from three from one guy, off the bench? Pretty good. Donovan Ford's 51 points wasn't even the best performance in the game - Josh Berard from Ozarks scored 60, including 21-25 from the FT line.
Crazy.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 18, 2016, 10:19:18 PM
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on February 18, 2016, 10:19:18 PM
Greenville seems to be quick learners! They have now won 11 of their last 12 games, and will host the SLIAC tourney.
It will be interesting to see the interplay of them recruiting players for The System vs. rival coaches/teams learning how to play against The System.
This MAY be their best SLIAC season ever (I couldn't find very good records on either their website or SLIAC.org). They won a regular season title back in 1995-96, and a tourney title in 1998 (as a 5th seed), but I couldn't find any season records prior to this website's 2006-7 - this will certainly be their best season (both SLIAC and overall) during that time.
It will be interesting to see the interplay of them recruiting players for The System vs. rival coaches/teams learning how to play against The System.
This MAY be their best SLIAC season ever (I couldn't find very good records on either their website or SLIAC.org). They won a regular season title back in 1995-96, and a tourney title in 1998 (as a 5th seed), but I couldn't find any season records prior to this website's 2006-7 - this will certainly be their best season (both SLIAC and overall) during that time.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 18, 2016, 11:29:46 PM
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 18, 2016, 11:29:46 PM
We interviewed Coach Barber the other night on Hoopsville... it was one of the more enjoyable interviews we have had. Feel free to go back and give it a listen: www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2015-16/feb14
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: RogK on March 10, 2016, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: RogK on March 10, 2016, 04:12:00 PM
For those of you interested in the "System" there's an NAIA game coming up in about 20 minutes:
http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=27900&ATCLID=210433591
opening round of their D2 WBB tourney, Olivet Naz vs IU-East.
- - - correction : never mind -- not a free webcast
http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=27900&ATCLID=210433591
opening round of their D2 WBB tourney, Olivet Naz vs IU-East.
- - - correction : never mind -- not a free webcast
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jaybird44 on November 26, 2016, 02:10:08 AM
Post by: jaybird44 on November 26, 2016, 02:10:08 AM
I'm not sure if it is exactly the Grinnell "system" being run this season by Rhodes, but the Lynx are running a hyperspeed offense. The Rhodes basketball website featured a story about the new tactics, with the writer calling it a "fun and gun" offense. But if it runs like Grinnell and scores like Grinnell...
In the first 3 games of the season, Mike DeGeorge has his Lynx scoring at a clip of 121 ppg (124, 116, 123 points). Opponents are averaging 114.3 ppg. Rhodes is 1st in D3 in assists/game (26.7), and tied for 4th in made 3s/game (14.0). Rhodes is averaging 39.7 baskets per game (practically one per minute), and 88.7 field-goal attempts per game (2.2 shots per minute). Rhodes has taken 90 and 91 shots from the floor in its last two games. The Lynx also shot an amazing 16 for 57 from beyond the arc, in an OT loss to ETBU. So far, Rhodes is 2-1 this season with the new offense. Rhodes has also taken the top spot in D3, forcing 33 turnovers/game from its opponents.
I will get a chance to see and call a couple of games involving Rhodes in the upcoming weekend, as it plays in the Lopata Classic at Washington University. I do have a bit of practice so far in the early season regarding high scoring games--Chicago outscored Hanover 113-83 in a final round game of the McWilliams Classic women's basketball tournament last weekend.
Rhodes could break the scoring records of the Lopata Classic, held by Babson (118 points vs. WashU in 1997--and 217 points in two games in '97). It will be fun to see if Rhodes can impose that offensive will on their two games in St. Louis next weekend...
In the first 3 games of the season, Mike DeGeorge has his Lynx scoring at a clip of 121 ppg (124, 116, 123 points). Opponents are averaging 114.3 ppg. Rhodes is 1st in D3 in assists/game (26.7), and tied for 4th in made 3s/game (14.0). Rhodes is averaging 39.7 baskets per game (practically one per minute), and 88.7 field-goal attempts per game (2.2 shots per minute). Rhodes has taken 90 and 91 shots from the floor in its last two games. The Lynx also shot an amazing 16 for 57 from beyond the arc, in an OT loss to ETBU. So far, Rhodes is 2-1 this season with the new offense. Rhodes has also taken the top spot in D3, forcing 33 turnovers/game from its opponents.
I will get a chance to see and call a couple of games involving Rhodes in the upcoming weekend, as it plays in the Lopata Classic at Washington University. I do have a bit of practice so far in the early season regarding high scoring games--Chicago outscored Hanover 113-83 in a final round game of the McWilliams Classic women's basketball tournament last weekend.
Rhodes could break the scoring records of the Lopata Classic, held by Babson (118 points vs. WashU in 1997--and 217 points in two games in '97). It will be fun to see if Rhodes can impose that offensive will on their two games in St. Louis next weekend...
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 26, 2016, 10:29:15 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 26, 2016, 10:29:15 AM
I checked out the boxscores - they are definitely not running the Grinnell system; they're just going uptempo.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: jaybird44 on November 26, 2016, 02:48:59 PM
Post by: jaybird44 on November 26, 2016, 02:48:59 PM
Having not seen Grinnell in person, what does it do differently than a team that also runs an uptempo offense?
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 27, 2016, 02:39:59 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 27, 2016, 02:39:59 PM
Quote from: jaybird44 on November 26, 2016, 02:48:59 PM
Having not seen Grinnell in person, what does it do differently than a team that also runs an uptempo offense?
So there are five basic numerical goals for each game. They attempt to shoot 100 shots per game, with at least half coming from 3. They want to force 32 turnovers, shoot 30 times more than their opponent, and rebound at least 33% of their missed shots on offense.
To get to those numbers, they generally press full court - but with all five players in the back court - usually three guys chasing the ball, one in support and a fifth as the fail-safe at mid-court. Typically, if the opponent breaks the press, they just let them get a lay-up and hurry the ball back down the floor.
In order to play this pace and speed (and with this aggressive a defense), they rotate five new players in, roughly every minute - sometimes they'll even foul on purpose to get a stoppage of play to substitute. 15-20 guys see the floor each game, rarely does anyone play more than 25 minutes.
As I've said before, when it's run well, it's a thing of beauty - the teams in the late 2000's with John Grotberg and Arsenault Jr were really, really fun to watch. When it's not run well, it can get a bit ugly.
They do seem to change up the system a little for conference play, where the other teams have had 25 years to develop plans to play against it. Against Greenville, yesterday, who runs the system as well, both teams abandoned the press by the second half and were settling for a lot more layups.
When it started, Arsenault had some of the math professors analyze some of the numbers (I'm sure you could do so in a much more sophisticated way now), but when they hit all five of those targets above, they almost never lose. Hitting the targets is pretty tough, though.
There really is no offense - they've got a few picks and rotations to try and get the shooters free, but the whole thing is predicated on running the defense well. A good press is the key to making it work (you also need guys who can put up 30 threes night after night and make 30% of them or so).
When you see these uptempo teams, like Rhodes, you can see if they're running the system pretty quickly by looking at the shooting totals. 90 shots per game is pretty common for a high scoring team, but 50 3pts attempted is more rare. Greenville had a lot of games that look like Rhodes' box scores as they were implementing the System, so maybe Rhodes is just early in the process, but you can score a lot of points with other types of play.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 03, 2016, 12:18:56 PM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 03, 2016, 12:18:56 PM
Rhodes latest game against Eau Claire looks a lot more like a team trying to run The System. They didn't do well reaching the numerical goals, but it looks like they're trying.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: gordonmann on December 03, 2016, 04:09:03 PM
Post by: gordonmann on December 03, 2016, 04:09:03 PM
Since a lot of other websites cross reference our old article describing Grinnell's system, we might as well do it too...
http://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2003-04/grinnell-system-begins-to-take-hold
http://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2003-04/grinnell-system-begins-to-take-hold
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Knightstalker on December 19, 2016, 04:48:03 PM
Post by: Knightstalker on December 19, 2016, 04:48:03 PM
At some of the tournaments my daughters AAU team played in I saw a couple of AAU programs running the system or something extremely similar. They were subbing out player 5 at a time at the most for two minutes before another hockey line change. They were all NJ programs.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: 7express on December 27, 2016, 11:54:45 AM
Post by: 7express on December 27, 2016, 11:54:45 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 05, 2016, 11:55:53 PM
Once they learned 'The System', Greenville has now won 7 of their last 8. They'll probably still finish within the range of their last decade's finishes, but who knows what next year might hold (unless the SLIAC's other teams have figured them out).
Anyone tracking who besides Grinnell and Greenville (men) and NCC (women) is still running 'The System'?
I know the Westfield State women were doing it last year and the beginning of this year, and having seen them in person they had the makings of it (hockey line changes every 70 seconds or so, full court press, shoot lots of 3 pointers), but haven't checked any of their box scores since like Thanksgiving, so not sure whether they are still running it or not.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on December 27, 2016, 02:46:05 PM
Post by: smedindy on December 27, 2016, 02:46:05 PM
I think they still attempt it, according to some box scores.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: gordonmann on January 12, 2017, 11:40:26 PM
Post by: gordonmann on January 12, 2017, 11:40:26 PM
For those entertained, enraged or just interested in Grinnell's system, Ryan Scott has an excellent column in this week's Around the Nation describing how it has spread and evolved at other Division III schools.
http://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2016-17/system-here-to-stay
It's sort of like a mic drop answer to the question that headlines this room. :)
http://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2016-17/system-here-to-stay
It's sort of like a mic drop answer to the question that headlines this room. :)
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 14, 2017, 09:22:18 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 14, 2017, 09:22:18 AM
So, beyond d3 and the five programs in the story, I also found Olivet Nazarene women, Asbury men (both NAIA), and the Sacramento State women (D1) are running some modified version (the coach ran the System at other schools where he's coached).
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 29, 2017, 11:34:46 PM
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 29, 2017, 11:34:46 PM
I'm curious, are the U New England men running it this year? The box scores seem to suggest they are.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 30, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 30, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 29, 2017, 11:34:46 PM
I'm curious, are the U New England men running it this year? The box scores seem to suggest they are.
I think so. I watched part of their game with Bowdoin, but it was tight and down the stretch, where some of the principles of the System can sometimes give way to trying to win the game. UNE and Coach Silva have run uptempo offense with pressing for many years. They may just be playing the numbers and shooting more threes. I did see a little bit of Grinnell defense in some of their presses, but these days the System isn't nearly so monolithic anymore. I think we'll see a lot of hybrids, especially now that the Rockets are running an offense that can produce box scores similar to the System (and now that Grinnell's boxscores don't look as much like the System as they used to).
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 30, 2017, 07:28:49 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 30, 2017, 07:28:49 AM
On another note, the West Conn women are almost certainly running some variation of it - and doing it very well for a team new to it.
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: gordonmann on February 01, 2018, 12:20:38 AM
Post by: gordonmann on February 01, 2018, 12:20:38 AM
Might as well file this here for posterity.
http://d3hoops.com/notables/2018/01/fontbonne-greenville-record
http://d3hoops.com/notables/2018/01/fontbonne-greenville-record
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: GU1999 on February 07, 2019, 02:53:15 PM
Post by: GU1999 on February 07, 2019, 02:53:15 PM
Also filed for posterity regarding the "moonshot game".
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2019/02/04/greenville-coachs-take-on-the-run-to-200/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/amkaqy/d3_greenville_scores_200_points_in_a_game/
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2019/02/04/greenville-coachs-take-on-the-run-to-200/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CollegeBasketball/comments/amkaqy/d3_greenville_scores_200_points_in_a_game/
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: smedindy on November 12, 2019, 04:42:23 PM
Post by: smedindy on November 12, 2019, 04:42:23 PM
Having just migrated to the new NCAA stats system (touch screens and all). I wonder how much easier / harder it is to do in a system....
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 09, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 09, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
I know it's just one game into the season... but Hunter is definitely doing something. Boxscore (https://www.d3hoops.com/seasons/men/2021-22/boxscores/20211106_1d9n.xml?view=boxscore) versus Pratt
Title: Re: Who Is running the Grinnell system?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 10, 2021, 07:55:58 AM
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 10, 2021, 07:55:58 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on November 09, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
I know it's just one game into the season... but Hunter is definitely doing something. Boxscore (https://www.d3hoops.com/seasons/men/2021-22/boxscores/20211106_1d9n.xml?view=boxscore) versus Pratt
Probably Keuka and possibly Merchant Marine, too.