Best teams in the East? :
Undefeated teams:
Hamilton (7-0, 4-0) W over Middlebury
NYU (6-0, 1-0) Ursinus is the only decent team they've played
Cortland (6-1, 5-0) W's over Brockport, Alfred, Ithaca. Loss to Trinity (Conn)
Fisher (4-1, 3-0) W over Geneseo, L to Baldwin-Wallace
RIT (4-1, 2-0) W over Oswego, L to WPI
Utica (6-1, 5-1) W over SUNYIT (2), L to Union
Oswego (6-1, 5-1) W over Geneseo, Naz. L to RIT
Rochester (6-2, 4-1) ** Only regional loss to CMU, not true regional team
Union (3-2, 2-1) W over Williams, L to CMU and Middlebury (combined records of 16-1)
The only teams with decent out of region wins are Hamilton (Middlebury), Union (Williams), and maybe UR (John Carroll).
** I reserve the right to have missed something
I can't wait till next week for the rankings. I hope Fisher wins it b cause I would like to see if they move up in the rankings.If they do it would be great for the E-8.
Round 2 of my rankings (which you have every reason to totally disregard):
1 - NYU ( 12-1, beat UR, lost today in 2 OT to CMU)
2 - SJF ( 8-2, only losses to top 25 teams)
3 - Hamilton ( undefeated but needs to play someone -- someone will be Utica on Tuesday)
4 - UR ( losses to NYU, CMU, and Wittenburg. )
5 - Cortland ( impressive, lot of upper classmen)
6 - Utica ( hung with Fisher, could make a move up the rankings with a win over Hamilton)
I gotta believe they are the best teams in the region at this point.
After this weekend
Fisher (Wins the Chase at UR)
Cortland (on a roll, and Trinity's win over Amherst validates their only loss)
NYU (Compare their schedule to Cortland's - no contest)
UR
Utica
Hamilton (TKO, Giorgi not playing - Stay tuned)
SUNYIT?
Let's try this again, going into this weekend's games:
1 - Fisher ( loss to Naz weakens them a bit, though)
2 - NYU ( barely over Utica. Win @ Wash U a big deal )
3 - Utica ( on a roll. Win over Hamilton would have meant more if the Continentals had their full squad )
4 - Cortland ( Only losses to decent teams: Trinity and Oswego )
5 - Rochester ( looks like they lost too much to be an elite squad )
6 - Oswego ( avenged their loss to SUNYIT. Could be trouble for Cortland in SUNYACs )
My best guess right now:
1- NYU (two losses, one in 2OT at Carnegie-Mellon the other at Wash U.)
2- Fisher (loss at home to Nazareth drops them)
3- Cortland (only two losses were nailbiters against Trinity (13-3) and Oswego (14-3)
4- Utica (for now)
5- Oswego (and rising...game coming up against Utica is huge, Lakers are hitting their stride)
6- Rochester (tough conference will keep them from rising too much this season)
I agree with you for the most part, Bamm. I don't think we can rank the 2nd best E8 team ahead of the best team in the SUNYAC(Cortland) who may be even better than Fisher. That loss at Union looks worse for Utica with every Dutchmen loss. They've played two competent teams on the road so far; they lost at Union and beat cross-town rival SUNYIT. Needless to say, I'm not betting the house on them.
My predicted Region Rankings
1. NYU
2.St. John Fisher
3. Cortland St.
4. Hamilton
5. Rochester
6. Oswego St.
7. Utica
Then after that it takes a significant drop. Right now I would have Brockport at Eight. Thoughts
I agree with most of that.
I think you could take C-state, Fisher, and NYU and put them in any order, after that I think it is right on
when do the FIRST OFFICIAL regional rankings come out??
The Official Rankings:
1 - Cortland
2 - Fisher
3 - NYU
4 - Hamilton
5 - Rochester
Gotta figure that the other contenders are Oswego and Utica.
Ya know what- I think that those rankings aren't that off.
They're pretty accurate. Can we get the guys who do the basketball ones to do the football rankings?
I agree, although I don't consider it a difficult task this season. There simply aren't that many top-tier teams. You could put Cortland, Fisher, and NYU in any order and it would be fine by me.
As last year, I think it will come down to Fisher vs a quality SUNYAC team- this year Cortland.
Beating the crap out of each other, and then the winner running into a buzz saw.
Although last year, they weren't beating the crap out of each other, Potsdam was just beating the crap out of Fisher. From what I saw of Cortland this year though, I think Fisher will match up with Cortland much better than they did with Potsdam last year.
Ok so with NYU's loss today does Hamilton slip into the 3 spot? and if Hamilton wins the conference tournament do they go into the tournament as a 1 or 2 seed. Their schedule is weak due to the pathetic Liberty League this year so I understand if they don't but seriously if they end the season at 23-3 somebody has to take them seriously
Perhaps as important as NYU losing was Rochester winning. Now, if they both hold serve, the UAA championship could come down to their last regular season game @ CMU. Rochester might still find a way into the tournament via Pool A.
Shooters, Hamilton won't get a #1 or #2 unless Fisher or Cortland lose at some point. That said, if Rochester wins the UAA and Cortland wins the SUNYAC, thus clinching the #1 seed, I think UR will be the #3 so they could matchup with Fisher and Hamilton would be the #4 so they'd play Cortland.
Pat:
Will Cortland get an at-large if they do not win the SUNYAC's????
Quote from: cstate19 on February 18, 2006, 08:34:20 PM
Will Cortland get an at-large if they do not win the SUNYAC's????
Yeah, even if the field hadn't expanded this year I'd still have said Fisher and Cortland were locks. They're in for sure and I bet they each get a home game or two.
Pat's Picks (& not too far from my thoughts)
QuoteEAST
1. St. John Fisher
2. Cortland State
3. Baldwin-Wallace
4. Trinity (Conn.)
5. Hamilton
6. Norwich
7. Plattsburgh State
8. Endicott
This scenario would suggest a regional at Fisher with Endicott (8) and Hamilton(5)/Trinity(7) and a
Regional at Cortland with Plattsburgh(7) and Norwich(6)/BW(3)
Past history would work against pairing conference rivals in the first round. I could see a flip flop between Plattsburgh and Norwich.
The last time that SUNYAC had split champions, the upset tourney champ (Potsdam) got sent out of region, and the Reg Season Champ (Brockport) got to host, but it was a team from another conference.
Hopefully with Rochester out of the tournament, Fisher might seek out a decent gym (RIT or the Palestra) to host this.
Fisher might do that for the sweet 16 in order to gaurentee it being in rochester, but the small gym works to Fisher's favor in anygame
ECAC's are out. Here are the 1st round matchups:
Wednesday
#8 RIT @ #1 Oswego
#7 Ithaca @ #2 Union
#6 Brockport @ #3 SUNYIT
#5 Keuka @ #4 Potsdam
Semi-finals will be held Friday night.
ECAC Selections (http://www.ecac.org/feature/feature.asp?id=2816)
Predictions for the Upcoming Year: NYU, UofR, Fisher, Hamilton, and whatever Suny team gets the best transfers (surpriser team of the year in the SUNYAC is Geneseo)
Just to spark something, off the top of my head without looking at records or any criteria, my top five would be (in order) NYU, Rochester, and then any combination of Hamilton, Fisher, Brockport, Geneseo, Utica, and St. Lawrence. There don't appear to be any East teams ready to seriously contend past the sweet 16 this year so far. Thoughts?
Humor me and throw in Clarkson who has wins against Hamilton & Utica however tainted they may be (ie: Utica without Ray Bryant and Hamilton probably a little flat and looking towards SLU). Without question in my mind the team to beat in the east is Brockport. Tomorrows game between SLU and Clarkson will probably help determine if I should be humored or not!?
Quote from: b4the3isme on January 15, 2007, 01:18:06 PM
Without question in my mind the team to beat in the east is Brockport.
Well, apparently Geneseo and Fisher considered them the team to beat, as well. Brockport has lost two in a row and doesn't look like the class of the East like they did a week ago.
Bamm u r most certainly correct. I didn't look at the Chase results b4 I posted to get toasted!!! I am in shock that b-port lost twice, especially after the thrashings they gave to Hamilton & SLU?!
NYU
UofR
Fisher
Utica
Geneseo
Bport
Hamilton
Utica TBD with Ray Bryant we'll find out when they play Fisher. UofR did beat NYU but it was an OT home win, they will lose at NYU.
So far this year I think the rankings should look like this:
1) U of R
2) NYU
3)Fisher
4)Brockport
5)St. Lawrence
6)Hamilton
7)Utica
8)Clarkson
That is how I see it.
Quote from: sjfcards on January 15, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
So far this year I think the rankings should look like this:
1) U of R
2) NYU
3)Fisher
4)Brockport
5)St. Lawrence
6)Hamilton
7)Utica
8)Clarkson
That is how I see it.
Well, Clarkson beat Hamilton this weekend, then lost to Hobart. St. Lawrence, meanwhile, beat Hobart, then lost to Hamilton.
Not sure if you were aware of that, but from discussion of LL topics, it seems the rankings may be Clarkson, Hamilton, St. Lawrence.
Quote from: rjcarter8 on January 16, 2007, 10:54:41 AM
Quote from: sjfcards on January 15, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
So far this year I think the rankings should look like this:
1) U of R
2) NYU
3)Fisher
4)Brockport
5)St. Lawrence
6)Hamilton
7)Utica
8)Clarkson
That is how I see it.
Well, Clarkson beat Hamilton this weekend, then lost to Hobart. St. Lawrence, meanwhile, beat Hobart, then lost to Hamilton.
Not sure if you were aware of that, but from discussion of LL topics, it seems the rankings may be Clarkson, Hamilton, St. Lawrence.
I just want to make it clear I don't think those should be the top three teams, just the order for any LL teams.
I don't disagree with the top four, but I'd elevate Utica to No. 5, followed by Clarkson, Hamilton and St. Lawrence.
What is up with b-port they seem to be in a free fall- having lost to Oswego for their third loss in a row?? That being said St Law beat Clarkson who has victories or Hamilton and Utica. After the top 3 of NYU, Roch & Fisher it looks wide open. I guess too we should probaly throw Geneseo into the mix now too. Losses are to pretty tough teams (Roch & Fisher - by 1 point) and second day of that long Potsadam/Plattsburg trip and Lake Erie which I know nothing about and they have a win over b-port now.
I would definatly throw geneseo in the mix they are very solid.
SLU is a good team, deep and talented. I saw them at Clarkson last night, and they were impressive. They have size, length, quickness, good shooters, wide bodies, and people who can finish. They will be very tough at home.
Clarkson is also a good team, but suffered a tough loss when one of their two senior guards went down, and appears to be lost for a while. He was on the bench in civvies. Again, they will be tough at home, but are now a step below the Saints. I think that they beat Utica sans Ray Bryant, which is an entirely different team. Beating Hamilton was a grudge thing, since TA recruited many of the seniors on this team, then bailed a year later, and took a couple of prize players with him.
The SUNYAC is wide open, anyone could beat anyone. If you look at the scores, there are very few blow outs, most games are decided by single digits - 3 to 4 possessions. That said, the conference lost a boat load of talent (Bellucci, Barton, Ranieri, Skrelja, Taggart, Mims, Gibbs-Smith . . .)in last year's senior class, and seems to be down a little this year.
We shall see
Quote from: rjcarter8 on January 16, 2007, 11:03:58 AM
Quote from: rjcarter8 on January 16, 2007, 10:54:41 AM
Quote from: sjfcards on January 15, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
So far this year I think the rankings should look like this:
1) U of R
2) NYU
3)Fisher
4)Brockport
5)St. Lawrence
6)Hamilton
7)Utica
8)Clarkson
That is how I see it.
Well, Clarkson beat Hamilton this weekend, then lost to Hobart. St. Lawrence, meanwhile, beat Hobart, then lost to Hamilton.
Not sure if you were aware of that, but from discussion of LL topics, it seems the rankings may be Clarkson, Hamilton, St. Lawrence.
I just want to make it clear I don't think those should be the top three teams, just the order for any LL teams.
I don't disagree with the top four, but I'd elevate Utica to No. 5, followed by Clarkson, Hamilton and St. Lawrence.
Like I said that is how I see it...I am sure any three people would look at the LL teams and shake up the teams as to how they would see it. It is possible you could see three different orders of the teams from three seperate people. I think the LL may be the most balanced at the top of the league of any of the three major leagues in NY. I think that league could go any number of ways for that league. I think Hamilton will survive and win the league but that is an uneducated guess.
Shouldn't Vassar be on the this list?
They are looking like the best team in the Liberty League right now with a record of (11-4) and a conference record of (4-1). Also, 3 of their four losses were to teams with more than 10 wins right now and one of them only has one loss. One!
Quote from: rjcarter8 on January 16, 2007, 11:03:58 AM
Quote from: rjcarter8 on January 16, 2007, 10:54:41 AM
Quote from: sjfcards on January 15, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
So far this year I think the rankings should look like this:
1) U of R
2) NYU
3)Fisher
4)Brockport
5)St. Lawrence
6)Hamilton
7)Utica
8)Clarkson
That is how I see it.
Well, Clarkson beat Hamilton this weekend, then lost to Hobart. St. Lawrence, meanwhile, beat Hobart, then lost to Hamilton.
Not sure if you were aware of that, but from discussion of LL topics, it seems the rankings may be Clarkson, Hamilton, St. Lawrence.
I just want to make it clear I don't think those should be the top three teams, just the order for any LL teams.
I don't disagree with the top four, but I'd elevate Utica to No. 5, followed by Clarkson, Hamilton and St. Lawrence.
I guess Clarkson has decided that a win over Hamilton is enough for its LL season, they are now 1-4 in the league. This team belongs nowhere near a top teams list for the East Region.
Who cares about Clarkson. They are a two man team. EJ Harrison and Youngmann are all they have. If those two are on. They are a hard team to beat. If not, they don't do much with the ball besides playing some decent defense.
.... Hopefully, this won't bite me in the butt when they come around again.
Sorry to say it but I dont think anyone in the East Region besides the to UAA teams (NYU & UofR) can make it past the 2nd round in the NCAA tourny this year.
Didn't Brockport beat Fisher, how can you rank them ahead of them? That will change now that Fisher lost to Alfred.
Top teams in the East Region in my opinion:
1) UofR
2) Bport
3) Plattsburgh
4) Fisher
5) Nazareth
6) St. Lawrence
7) NYU
8) Stevens
9) Vassar
10) Hamilton
1) UofR - don't know.
2) Plattsburgh < baring injury with 12 returners which 2 are pre season All Americans
it is difficult to rate them lower, because they beat both
U of R and Brockport (at their gym) last season in BIG games on the road.
Every season is a new adventure, and repeating as SUNYAC champs for the
third time will not be easy. I believe this group is ready to make the impossible
become reality. They had their taste last March and were ready for this season
getting on the bus for that looooong trip back to campus.
3) Bport - or lower
4) Fisher
Props to Plattsburg for their year last year, but they probably should not count on too many wins like the one against UR in the NCAA's. That was the most improbable shot I have ever witnessed in person.
Lets not forget cards bport also beat plattsburgh at plattsburgh without 2 of there best players. Bport also returns 13 players including 2 all americans, bport also won the sunyac conference by 2 or 3 games last year. Bport will be a little short handed ther first 5 games and after that they will be SICK!!!!!!!!!
1 Brockport
2 U of R
3PLATTS or lower
4 Fisher
i hear the arguement platts, however i agree with yellow jacket, that was a game UofR completely blew. Then they lost to fisher who lost to bport. however, i do think plattsburgh could come out of the sunyac ahead of bport this year. from the replying messages, it looks like i ranked the teams fairly well fisher at 4 no arguments, exchange between bport and platts by fans. Im not so sure bport will come together like last year, i think they will be a little inconsistent. I did play against cantrel parrish this summer and he looked like he could do some serious damage this year and sharod is sharod, the kid can flat out score. With the new coach i think they will struggle in big games. I put UofR at one because they have the best coach and a ton returning.
Fish Dyn- I haven't been following the E-8 like I used to, but I must admit I was surprised by your Nazareth ranking? Do u know something? Did they have another barn-burning recruiting class? It seems like years since they've been in the e-8 playoffs let alone 5th in this region?? Not trying to be a non-believer, just trying to understand? Last season I thought Ithaca was better and I don't think they lost a heck of alot? SLU was pretty young and solid. Vassar lost virtually nothing and I think will actually be the team to beat in the Liberty League. Unless somethings missing from my understanding, until Naz proves itself in the season i could not rate them that high...
They just have a lot of talent and have underacheived the past few years. last year they were missing one of their best players in ryan mcadam 6'5 swingman who will help them out a lot this year. He was MVP of the open mens empire games this summer for the Western team who won the championship. D3 hoops has Naz getting more votes than any other team in the east region besides stevens, uofr, platt and bport. However, you could squeeze ithaca in there in place of naz they are going to be good as well. You never know what Nazareth is going to do they could beat anyone and lose to anyone on a given night. I just think this is the year they finally come together. I definatly hear your point and vassar maybe better i didnt have a chance to see them play last year but know they should be good this year so was hard to rank them.
Time to Rev up the East Region rankings
Here's my take on them.
1. Univ. of Rochester
2. Plattsburgh St.
3. Nazareth
4. Brockport St.
5. Oswego St.
6. Hamilton
7. St. Lawrence
8. Cortland St.
9. St John Fisher
10. Vassar
11. Ithaca
12. Geneseo St.
13. NYU
14. RIT
15.Utica
Lots of teams struggled early but have been more consistant in the past month.
Brockport has won 9 of their last 11 with only losses coming to #3 UR 75-70 and at #16 Plattsburgh 81-78 in OT.
St. Lawrence has won 9 of their last 10 with wins over Bport, Oswego, and Vassar and only loss coming at Hamilton this past weekend 71-62
Hamilton has won 8 of their last 10 with wins over Bport, #13 Williams and SLU
Cortland has won 10 of their last 12 with only losses at Plattsburgh 74-69 and Oswego 77-74
St John Fisher has won 7 of their last 10 with a win over Stevens and 1 pt loss to Bport.
Clearly Rochester and Plattsburgh are at the top of the list and my top 5 based on overall records I think is pretty fair, but after that the next 10 teams could move up or down depending on one's personal opinion.
Hope to hear some comments. Just please keep them friendly. :)
My Bears beat SLU at SLU. Admittedly the Bears had a reasonably healthy roster that night, but still think Cortland with their size and depth would prevail against the Saints. Also can't see SLU ranking above Ithaca, think that Burton & Bostic would eat them alive.
If Vassar loses at Clarkson, they don't belong on this list, regardless of how well Clarkson is playing.
I think you can put a glove over Cortland, Oswego, Brockport, Geneseo. All very good teams, with size, depth, athleticism. At least one very good team is going to get left out of the SUNYAC semi's.
Part of Potsdam's issue is they have played 9 games against this group, with wins vs. SLU & Ithaca (sans Bostic).
Play at Utica tomorrow night, at Plattsburgh on Saturday and end the season at Cortland, 12 out of 25 vs. top 15 in region is a brutal schedule.
Magic--I agree with your first 2 choices, but Bport would beat Naz 7-10 times they played. From all indicators to this point, I have to disagree with Vassar ahead of Ithaca and possibly a couple other listed below them. Good job--Keep them coming.
Not so sure bport would beat naz 7-10 times, I think the teams are pretty close.
I dont agree that geneseo, bport, cortland, and oswego are that close. Bport is way better than geneseo and has already beat them twice. I believe they beat oswego pretty bad also in a game that was not very close. Im not saying those teams couldnt beat bport on a given night but to say you can throw a glove over them they are that close ? I dont think so.
Scooterman I agree that Brockport may beat Naz. But Naz has only been beaten by 3 teams not 6 like Port has. All losses by both teams have been to quality opponents. Brockport may end up leapfrogging over Naz but right now I think they've earned their #3 spot.
And I was hesitant to put Vassar where I did ahead of Ithaca, Geneseo, and NYU because 12 of their wins have come against teams with a losing record, some of whom are downright terrible. But I was guessing what I thought the real rankings would look like when they come out(which I thought was this week)and figured that 14-3 record might land them in that spot.
thebear
As I mentioned SLU struggled early on and I placed more emphasis on what's been happening since the start of Jan. Potsdam, as you stated earlier, had the injuries and the inability to finish in close games. When they opened with wins over Ithaca and Clarkson and beat SLU a couple of weeks later, I thought they were going to have a pretty good year. I wish they were on my list but after losing to Utica tonight 15th on my list...oh well. I've seen SLU, Cortland, Brockport and Oswego play and while I agree that Cortland might give them trouble with their size and depth SLU beat Brockport AND Oswego while Cortland lost to both of these clubs. Cortland is going to be real tough next year if those 3 sophmores Lewis, Coston, and Oliver all return. They may be my pre-season pick to win the conference. And Clarkson from what I understand is healthier now than they have been in a while. So beating Hamilton on the road the other night makes that Vassar loss to Clarkson at Potsdam look a little better. Not much I grant you.
Magic--Your entitled to your opinion but I have seen Naz twice and Bport many times and I disagree. 7 out of 10 my man!!!
Quote from: scooterman on February 05, 2008, 08:33:29 AM
Magic--I agree with your first 2 choices, but Bport would beat Naz 7-10 times they played. From all indicators to this point, I have to disagree with Vassar ahead of Ithaca and possibly a couple other listed below them. Good job--Keep them coming.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 05, 2008, 04:21:24 PM
Not so sure bport would beat naz 7-10 times, I think the teams are pretty close.
Quote from: scooterman on February 06, 2008, 09:08:00 AM
Magic--Your entitled to your opinion but I have seen Naz twice and Bport many times and I disagree. 7 out of 10 my man!!!
scooterman,
I think you're confusing what I said with FisherDynasty. I don't know who would win best of ten. It's immaterial. The most they would ever face each other in a given year would be 3 times. I haven't seen Naz play this year so I honestly don't know who would win that matchup, but if I was betting on it I would probably wager on Brockport. But
RIGHT NOW I believe when the East region rankings come out my top 5 will be their top 5. A couple more Brockport wins coupled with a Naz loss would most likely have them changing positions.
Sorry about that Magic--My bad!!!
Thought I saw where the rankings were coming out on Wednesday and since there have been quite a few games since my last posting of them I figured it was time for an update. Also the last time I did them I omitted Stevens as they were not listed in the East region according to D3hoops regional pages(which had them in the Atlantic region) but now they are. Guess the league change necessitated the region change. Makes sense to me. So here goes. Time to create some more discussion. And just to clarify, this list isn't in the order I would rank the top 15 but the way I think the regional ranking are going to be when they come out Again just keep the comments friendly.
1. Univ. of Rochester
2. Plattsburgh St.
3. Stevens Tech
4. Nazareth
5. Brockport St.
6. Oswego St
7. St. Lawrence
8. Cortland St.
9. Geneseo St.
10. Hamilton
11. St. John Fisher
12. New York Univ.
13. Ithaca
14. Vassar
15. RIT
Given the ratings, assuming Stevens or Naz somehow doesn't win the e8 automatic bid, is there a chance of both getting into the tournament? I would think Stevens with 1 more win is getting close to locking themselves in (top 25 all year, good regional record, beat Naz twice head to head). Not so sure about Naz, tho I don't see a "bad" loss on Naz's resume (mostly losses to tournament bound teams).
If both don't get in, who has the better shot?
If you like math, check out the Pool C topic under multi-regional topics. May answer your question
I checked that but I don't like it. Right now they have Naz as the A w C for the empire 8..eventho Stevens has been in 1st place the entire year and is definitely the A w C of the empire 8. Like i said, they've already beaten Naz twice head to head, so how Naz gets the A w C is questionable to me.
Quote from: Cyclone0205 on February 11, 2008, 02:38:16 PM
I checked that but I don't like it. Right now they have Naz as the A w C for the empire 8..eventho Stevens has been in 1st place the entire year and is definitely the A w C of the empire 8. Like i said, they've already beaten Naz twice head to head, so how Naz gets the A w C is questionable to me.
Maybe everyone stopped watching both Naz/Stevens games with one minute left and assumed Naz held on in both ;D
Naz...hold on to a game late? Couldn't be..that's like the first thing you do is watch a Naz game that's within 10 points with a minute left. Those always get interesting.
Dang....I was hoping you could explain it to me. You have valid Stevens/Naz issues. I am curious how UR has a higher RPI, OWP and OOWP and is behind Plattsburgh. Not looking to piss anyone off. Just curious.
Quote from: Jacketfan2011 on February 11, 2008, 07:04:27 PM
Dang....I was hoping you could explain it to me. You have valid Stevens/Naz issues. I am curious how UR has a higher RPI, OWP and OOWP and is behind Plattsburgh. Not looking to piss anyone off. Just curious.
Quote from: Cyclone0205 on February 11, 2008, 02:38:16 PM
I checked that but I don't like it. Right now they have Naz as the A w C for the empire 8..eventho Stevens has been in 1st place the entire year and is definitely the A w C of the empire 8. Like i said, they've already beaten Naz twice head to head, so how Naz gets the A w C is questionable to me.
Jacketfan
I think and I'm only guessing that Plattsburgh is ranked higher than your Yellowjackets because they have no losses in the region as opposed to 3 for UR. Not sure why they consider the 3 losses as regional losses since they were all to teams outside of the East region. Maybe they remember that big win Plattsburgh had over UR in last years 1st round game. ;)
Cyclone
Naz has a higher RPI, OWP, and OOWP than Stevens so that could be why they're getting the A w C and Stevens is getting the pool C. I wouldn't worry though. Barring a complete collaspe by Stevens they will get a bid even if they lose in the 1st round of the E8 tournament. Also think that Naz gets a bid if they don't win the tournament. They really don't have a bad loss among their 5. Both their losses to UR came when they were ranked #1 in the Nation and both the Stevens losses came when Stevens was ranked higher than their current #22 spot.
I think that Plattsburgh St. and Brockport St. gets in from the SUNYAC conference, assuming that one of them wins the tournament. The other will get a pool C bid. Rochester of course will get a bid regardless and the winner of the Liberty League tournament will get the automatic bid. That will probably be SLU or Hamilton but that league will not get a 2nd team in. In the E8 it's Stevens and Naz, unless Fisher or Ithaca wins the tournament, and then Naz will be SOL.
Above all remember these Pool C rankings aren't the real Pool C ranking but are probably a good approximation given the time and effort pabegg has put into it. I believe he stated the real rankings will come out this Wednesday.
Magic--I think you rate Naz and Stevens higher than Bport just to get a reaction out of me. The E8 is not stronger than the SUNYAC and the Burg and Bport are better than any E8 team in a 3 out of 5 series. Sorry I disagree with you with those two rankings.
Quote from: scooterman on February 11, 2008, 10:58:01 PM
Magic--I think you rate Naz and Stevens higher than Bport just to get a reaction out of me. The E8 is not stronger than the SUNYAC and the Burg and Bport are better than any E8 team in a 3 out of 5 series. Sorry I disagree with you with those two rankings.
Scooterman
Would I do that to you? ;) You're just not reading me, man. I clearly stated the list I put out there is not the order I would rank the top 15 but the way I think the regional rankings are going to be when they come out on Wed. I also agreed with you back on Feb. 6th, on this board, that I believe Brockport would probably beat Naz if they played each other. We never discussed Stevens because at that time they weren't listed as an East region team. I think Bport would beat them as well. Brockport was a sweet 16 team last year and they could do it again this year with almost the same team back, so I hear you. I just think the real rankings will spread the wealth around and will be surprised if the SUNYAC occupies better positions than 5 of the top 9 as I have them.
Scoot/Magic - How much of Stevens have you seen to know Bport would beat them 3/5 times? Not saying I necessarily disagree with you, just trying to figure out what you are basing that statement on. I know Magic said Bport was a Sweet 16 team last year and could be again this year, but the same thing could be said about Stevens. They went to the sweet 16 last year and lost to the eventual national champs, and have that whole team returning, plus the return of their big (who is currently 3rd in the nation in field goal percentage).
After looking at it, I think 1 more win puts Stevens in, because they can float into the Atlantic/Mid-Atlantic region very easily since they are a Jersey school. I think the NCAA will look at that and we know how they love to use location in determining teams. Just wondering how much you guys think being an East region team in NJ helps the ducks?
The Ducks are obviously a very good team and could go deep into the NCAA's--They will definitely have an advantage being in the East Region and NJ school. It will be very interesting to see Wednesday's ratings. Both squads return everybody and would be an exciting matchup-- Magic--I really do appreciate all your insight--I am very narrowly focused as you can tell--Go Eagles!!!
Quote from: Cyclone0205 on February 11, 2008, 02:38:16 PM
I checked that but I don't like it. Right now they have Naz as the A w C for the empire 8..eventho Stevens has been in 1st place the entire year and is definitely the A w C of the empire 8. Like i said, they've already beaten Naz twice head to head, so how Naz gets the A w C is questionable to me.
Sorry for being the uneducated, but what does the "A w C" and all other abbreviations concerning the d-3 tourney mean? Also, 'Pool C bids' is another way to say 'at-large bids' right?
A w C basically means that if they don't win the conference automatic bid (A) they'll have a shot as a Pool C team (C).
Yes, C is the same as At-Large.
The numbers next to the C indicate where you rank out of the potential at large teams. C 1 - C 18 are the teams that get the at large bids into the tournament.
thanks a lot! and how many teams get in the tourney? 58??
Quote from: Cyclone0205 on February 12, 2008, 08:29:59 AMI think the NCAA will look at that and we know how they love to use location in determining teams.
They actually do NOT do that at all, whatsoever. They use it to bracket teams but never to select teams.
Quote from: e8bballfan on February 12, 2008, 11:04:55 AM
thanks a lot! and how many teams get in the tourney? 58??
Actually more than that. Please see the
front page (http://www.d3hoops.com/) story on the tourney. ;)
Stevens in my opinion definatly would not lose to bport 3 out of 5 times, if anything they would be the favorites. Stevens would be able to handle bports pressure, after that is done, they are very beatable. They give up way too many easy buckets on the defensive end. The way stevens gets to the basket i think they would have a field day.
Also, I dont think stevens getting put in the East region would be better for them then in the NJ. I think the East is strong this year and is always underrated. The NJ region in my opinion is weaker.
Fisher--You are entitled to your opinion but the rankings speak the truth--Sorry my man!!!
Regional Rankings are now out
1 - Rochester
2 - Plattsburgh
3 - Brockport
4 - Stevens
5 - Naz
Seems right to me. Maybe a brock/stevens switch but I can't argue it either way.
yeah just my opinion, the rankings are pretty much on point. both bport and stevens are good, they havnt played so tough to tell.
Nice to see two e8 teams and two sunyacs in the top 5. Who would a thought Fisher would be excluded if two 8 teams were top 5 in region. anyone want to take a shot at ext 3?
Ill go
6. Hamilton
7. Oswego State
8. Fisher
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 13, 2008, 04:14:00 PM
yeah just my opinion, the rankings are pretty much on point. both bport and stevens are good, they havnt played so tough to tell.
Nice to see two e8 teams and two sunyacs in the top 5. Who would a thought Fisher would be excluded if two 8 teams were top 5 in region. anyone want to take a shot at ext 3?
Ill go
6. Hamilton
7. Oswego State
8. Fisher
What logic would give Fisher a better ranking than Cortland? The only argument would be that Cortland doesn't have any marquee wins, but Fisher has just one. One win over Stevens, a mediocre road team, does not negate the 3.5-game difference in their records (17-5 vs 13-8), especially when you consider the fact that Cortland plays in a better conference.
6. Oswego
7. Hamilton
8. Cortland
9. St. Lawrence
10. Geneseo
11. Fisher
12. Ithaca
I'd probably go with St. Lawrence ahead of Hamilton, simply because SLU is 8-2 in the Liberty League and Hamilton is 6-3. One of St. L's losses is at Hamilton (71-62) the other was to seventh-place Union (79-67). Hamilton, though it has beaten SLU in their only matchup so far this season, has league losses at Vassar (77-72 in OT), and at home to Clarkson (63-53) and RPI (68-57). Clarkson is third in the Liberty League at 6-4 and RPI is sixth at 4-5 in the LL. Vassar is tied for 4th (5-4) with Hobart.
Hamilton is always a tough place to play, apparently not for Clarkson and RPI this season, though, and although the Continentals won the head-to-head matchup, they'll have to win at St. Lawrence for me to move them ahead. St. Law is also up 2 games in the win column and 1 in the loss column ahead of Hamilton.
Lets be honest, that last group of rankings could really any different way. Ithaca beat cortland and loses to SLU. It is real tough to rank the last group. I really dont think that Cortland is that good. They have a good record but they are just a solid team. No real athlete's, just tough guys. That can only take you so far.
Quote from: bball12 on February 13, 2008, 08:49:16 PM
Lets be honest, that last group of rankings could really any different way. Ithaca beat cortland and loses to SLU. It is real tough to rank the last group. I really dont think that Cortland is that good. They have a good record but they are just a solid team. No real athlete's, just tough guys. That can only take you so far.
Ithaca probably beats SLU by 10 with Burton in the lineup. Just sayin. Fortuitous that the Larries caught IC the game after one of the top players in the region broke his nose.
the logic is exactly, cortland has no marquee wins. I dont think st. lawrence or cortland are as good as fisher, fisher would have a much better record if smalt was healthy all year. Cortland or st lawrence has not shown much. Geneseo i dont think is as good either, they beat them earlier by 4 but without smalt. either way just my opinion and we will see whos better come conf tourny times and ncaa tourny.
scooterman,
Are you happy now? You got your wish with that #3 ranking for Brockport. I was glad to see them grab the 3 spot. Surprised a little bit that Stevens was ranked below them seeing as how they are the E8 leaders but obviously a case can be made for either team.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 13, 2008, 11:06:08 PM
the logic is exactly, cortland has no marquee wins. I dont think st. lawrence or cortland are as good as fisher, fisher would have a much better record if smalt was healthy all year. Cortland or st lawrence has not shown much. Geneseo i dont think is as good either, they beat them earlier by 4 but without smalt. either way just my opinion and we will see whos better come conf tourny times and ncaa tourny.
As I said, one win at home against Stevens wouldn't negate Cortland's significantly better record and the fact that the SUNYAC is better than the E8 this season. Cortland doesn't have a bad loss, either. You're making a statement that "Fisher is better" that is based on nothing but your own subjective belief. Comparing the resumes certainly wouldn't bear out the same conclusion. These rankings are based on the body of work to date, thus they cannot ignore Fisher's rocky start.
I'd be a little upset if I was plattsburgh. one less loss then UofR and ranked behind them. They beat them last year and have won there last 12 or 16 games this year one or the other. Yes i think UofR is better and yes I think Platts. got a little lucky last year, however, it is what it is.
Magic--Lovin' the rankings--I believe they are as accurate as can be determined--Only time will tell--anything after the first 5 is a crap shoot!!!I personally like St. Lawrence because they have played more consistant after the the first semester and Fisher because they also have been more consistent of late.
St. Lawrence only lost one key player from last year's NCAA squad and are starting to make their run.
Well, lucky for UR there is more factored into the rankings than regional winning percentage. According to the numbers:
Plattsburgh - 16-0 (1.000) + .505 + .525 = 2.029 and 2-0 against ranked teams
UR - 16-3 (.842) + .629 + .573 = 2.044 and 7-2 against ranked teams.
The w/l against ranked teams comes from another post over in the Pool C room and I have to say I'm not sure what it represents. Until I hear otherwise, I'll assume it refers to teams in region, though I am not sure who Plattsburgh's two wins are against.
Pretty close in any event.
FD, P-burgh won a half-court shot last year. Happy Birthday. Should play no part in this year's analysis. That said, we need a UR/Plattsburgh game this year in the NCAA's. Will settle a lot.
"...2-0 against ranked teams..."
Brockport and Middlebury ? ???
That was my originial thought, but Middlebury is not in Plattsburgh's "region". So if Middlebury is counted as a win, shouldn't Occidental be counted as a loss?
It all makes my head hurt......
Quote from: Jacketfan2011 on February 14, 2008, 10:51:00 AM
That was my originial thought, but Middlebury is not in Plattsburgh's "region". So if Middlebury is counted as a win, shouldn't Occidental be counted as a loss?
It all makes my head hurt......
It's the mileage rule. Even though they aren't in the "East" region, Middlebury is still counts as an "in-region" game because of their proximity to Plattsburgh.
Occidental is just a touch further away.
WHO's on FIRST ? ??? ::) :'(
Quote from: Jacketfan2011 on February 14, 2008, 08:55:35 AM
Well, lucky for UR there is more factored into the rankings than regional winning percentage. According to the numbers:
Plattsburgh - 16-0 (1.000) + .505 + .525 = 2.029 and 2-0 against ranked teams
UR - 16-3 (.842) + .629 + .573 = 2.044 and 7-2 against ranked teams.
The w/l against ranked teams comes from another post over in the Pool C room and I have to say I'm not sure what it represents. Until I hear otherwise, I'll assume it refers to teams in region, though I am not sure who Plattsburgh's two wins are against.
Pretty close in any event.
Jacket, you beat me to the punch, but I wasn't even going to get that indepth with stats, so it's probably a good thing you did. I was simply going to say that UR has to play in the same league as Wash U. (currently ranked 7th in the Top 25 poll, one spot behind) and Brandeis (ranked 10th in the T25), as well as Chicago (which is in others receiving votes with 3). Plattsburgh is ranked 12th in the Top 25, and plays in the same league as Brockport (currently in others receiving votes with 1).
I know these are the East Region Rankings, and Rochester plays a lot of teams not in the region, due to their league, but looking at the caliber of the teams each plays in their league, I'd easily pick UR over Pburgh.
Buck- I think the UAA is a very solid league year in and year out but other than the U of R what teams recently, in the last 5 years, have gone beyond the sweet 16. I think the SUNY's are very competitive with that stat. Please inform me!!!
Well, off the top of my head Wash U was in the Final Four last year.
Quote from: scooterman on February 15, 2008, 08:28:10 AM
Buck- I think the UAA is a very solid league year in and year out but other than the U of R what teams recently, in the last 5 years, have gone beyond the sweet 16. I think the SUNY's are very competitive with that stat. Please inform me!!!
scooterman
Washington U. from the UAA went to the final four last year. They lost to Virginia Wesleyan in the semi-final game 67-65 and finished in 3rd place. Brockport went to the great eight last year, losing to Wooster in OT, in their bid to get to the finals. Didn't want you to be misinformed.
Fisher went to the Elite 8 in 2006, sweet 16 last year and in 2005.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 15, 2008, 09:44:33 AM
Fisher went to the Elite 8 in 2006, sweet 16 last year and in 2005.
Just when you guys thought you might have a "Fisher-free" discussion, these guys are always there to tell you something you didn't care to know.
Quite a service you provide, FD.
Bamm if you read the few posts prior to mine it was stated that UofR as part of the UAA is solid, then Magic sticking up for Sunyac stating brockport. I threw in Fishers success in as a pitch in for the E8 not a pitch in for Fisher.
To stick up for the E8 and give kudos where they are due!
Right Dyn?
How about for the last 5 year comparison , Anyone got that between SUNY and UAA? Is there a big disparity? To me a final four appearance versus an elite 8 game is not a huge difference, especially an OT game is elite 8 game loss.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 15, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
I threw in Fishers success in as a pitch in for the E8 not a pitch in for Fisher.
Ah, ok. I guess I'm confused then. Because you forgot to mention Utica's "Sweet 16" appearance.
Just trying to give you a good natured hard time -- you guys focus so much on Fisher it can sometimes be... ah... a little much, I guess.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 15, 2008, 09:44:33 AM
Fisher went to the Elite 8 in 2006, sweet 16 last year and in 2005.
Yeah - the 2005 loss was to Potsdam, another SUNYAC team.
Quote from: thebear on February 15, 2008, 12:46:47 PM
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 15, 2008, 09:44:33 AM
Fisher went to the Elite 8 in 2006, sweet 16 last year and in 2005.
Yeah - the 2005 loss was to Potsdam, another SUNYAC team.
I think it's fair that you describe it more aptly -- something like "bloodbath" or "spanking" would be appropriate.
its Okay, Fisher went to the elite 8 after that year. A year when TWO E8 teams played in the sweet 16 games.
Quote from: magicman on February 15, 2008, 09:18:01 AM
Quote from: scooterman on February 15, 2008, 08:28:10 AM
Buck- I think the UAA is a very solid league year in and year out but other than the U of R what teams recently, in the last 5 years, have gone beyond the sweet 16. I think the SUNY's are very competitive with that stat. Please inform me!!!
scooterman
Washington U. from the UAA went to the final four last year. They lost to Virginia Wesleyan in the semi-final game 67-65 and finished in 3rd place. Brockport went to the great eight last year, losing to Wooster in OT, in their bid to get to the finals. Didn't want you to be misinformed.
Quote from: FisherDynasty on February 15, 2008, 11:12:37 AM
Bamm if you read the few posts prior to mine it was stated that UofR as part of the UAA is solid, then Magic sticking up for Sunyac stating brockport. I threw in Fishers success in as a pitch in for the E8 not a pitch in for Fisher.
FishDYN
Hmm. I thought I was sticking up for the UAA and informing scooterman about their performance in last years NCAA tournament. The discussion was about the UAA and SUNYAC conferences. I didn't see any references to the E8 league there. Have to agree with Bamm that you shamelessly inserted Fisher into a discussion where they didn't belong. But that's OK I understand. After your glory years of the past it's hard when your team doesn't live up to expectations. ;D And I know the season for Fisher isn't over yet, there's always the dream of winning the E8 tournament and getting that automatic bid. But you and I both know it ain't gonna happen. Oh well what was it they used to say in Brooklyn? Wait'll next year?? :D Just teasing, don't take it personally. Still with Naz losing to Utica Friday night I suppose anything's possible in the E8. And how many times can you use the word "in" in one sentence. ;)
maybe I misinterpreted the conversation, but based on the East region board, i thought it was inherent the discussions were about all east region leagues. Maybe I missed an earlier conversation. Glory years? its not over yet, they are in second, just as brockport is in the Sunyac? I dont see you bashing them, they beat fisher by merely a point this year, thats a big discrepancy. I wouldnt count them out, now that they are fully healthy they are a much different team, similarly to last year around this time.
However I will admit, I think after this year, its going to be even more of a down year next year.
Correct Fisher is in 2nd tied with two other teams at 10-4 in conference play while the Eagles are 14-1 only loss double OT to No. 12 team in country. Big Difference my friend.
the post was made before today's loss, when there was no tie for second. way to respond and comment to an irrelevant post.
Plattsburgh St and Brockport St. both took care of business this week to continue as the top 2 seeds in the SUNYAC conference. Big showdown awaiting this pair on March 1st if their form holds up.
St. Lawrence, with a big win Sat. night over Hamilton seizes control of the Liberty league top seed. The Larries now hold a 2 1/2 game lead with only 2 games left to play. They play Vassar next Friday and even if they lose which I doubt will happen, a victory over RPI on Sat. will clinch the top seed for them.
Stevens with a 2 game lead in the Empire 8 would have to lose to both Utica and Ithaca and lose all the tiebreakers to be denied the top seed in their inaugural season in the league. Despite all the chatter of them being a poor road team I think they get the job done Sunday against Utica.
Brockport is really rolling winning 13 of 14 and 11 of those wins are by double digits. Brockport will be a tough out even though that game will be in plattsburgh, they out played plattsburgh for most of the first game but got very sloppy down the stretch. I dont want to look past oswego or cortland in the semis but Bport has already pretty much pounded them all 3 times. Should be a good sunyac tourney and there is ALWAYS upsets.
Quote from: magicman on February 17, 2008, 03:50:56 AM
Stevens with a 2 game lead in the Empire 8 would have to lose to both Utica and Ithaca and lose all the tiebreakers to be denied the top seed in their inaugural season in the league. Despite all the chatter of them being a poor road team I think they get the job done Sunday against Utica.
See my post on the E8 board. If Ithaca and Stevens finish with the same conference record, Ithaca will host as a result of the third tiebreaker (road conference record). Today is very dangerous for Stevens. Utica had a nice win at Naz on Friday night and the Pioneers are always much tougher at home. Also, keep in mind Stevens only beat Utica by 1 in Hoboken (though, Passalacqua did miss that game).
East Region rankings the way I see them after games through 2-17. Real top 5 will be updated on Wednesday.
1. Plattsburgh State
2. University of Rochester
3. Brockport State
4. Stevens
5. Nazareth
6. Oswego State
7. St Lawrence
8. Ithaca
9. Cortland State
10. Geneseo State
11. St. John Fisher
12. New York University
13. Hamilton
14. Vassar
15. Utica
Notes:
UR losing 2 games this past week relinquishes the top spot to Plattsburgh St. who now sports an undefeated 18-0 in-region record. UR with a 6-5 conference record has probably lost any chance of getting the automatic bid and is now relegated to pool C. They do finish up with the 3 bottom teams in the conference but they're currently 3 games behind Washington U. and 2 games behind Brandeis and Chicago. Any more stumbles and they may miss the big dance altogether.
Plattsburgh is looking more and more like the host for the SUNYAC tournament. One win in their final 2 games against Cortland or SUNYIT will do it. Brockport is the only team that could possibly host but they need the Cards to lose both games while they win out. Don't see that happening as Plattsburgh's really been on a mission winning 14 in a row since their midseason letdown. The possibilty of hosting the SUNYAC tournament for the 1st time ever and a possible NCAA first round regional for the 1st time ever is all the motivation the Cardinal's need. Still, that perfect conference record could be in jeopardy aagainst the Red Dragons on Friday night.
Brockport's regional record stands at 15-4 and they've now won 13 out of their last 14, losing only to Plattsburgh St. in OT. They'll be out for revenge come tourney time but are in good shape to get a pool C bid if they don't win the automatic entry. But like UR, they can't afford any missteps from here on out.
Stevens hangs onto the 4th spot despite the loss to Utica on Sunday. Slightly better regional record than Bport at 18-3 but their OWP is much lower. Surprised that Stevens couldn't win at Utica when it would have clinched the top seed. I guess the E8 posters are right. They can't win after those long bus rides. They better take a plane when they play at Ithaca on Friday night. The Bombers gotta be fired up for the chance to host the playoffs if they win that one and Saturday at home against Naz.
Naz wins 2 of 3 for the week and hangs on to the 5th spot with a 17-6 regional slate. Their hopes for grabbing the top spot in the E8 ended with that loss to Utica on the 15th. Without the automatic bid they too may wind up in the ECAC's
Oswego with a 15-5 in region record stays behind Naz by virtue of that early season loss to the Golden Flyers. Good season but will probably end up in the ECAC's unless they can come away with the SUNYAC championship.
St. Lawrence is 1 win away from clinching the top seed in the Liberty League and has won 13 of their last 15 games with wins over Oswego, Brockport, Hamilton and Vassar during that stretch. They also own a victory over Ithaca back in December, albeit when the Bombers were short Burton at the time.
Ithaca can make a major move in the region with 2 wins this weekend, but it's a tall order. Not saying they can't do it but playing the 2 toughest teams in the conference back to back won't be easy. Home court is nice but they haven't protected it as well as they should have. Two wins could move them all the way to 4th in the region.
Cortland St. and Geneseo St. both have had pretty good seasons but the only way they go to the NCAA's is if they win the SUNYAC tournament. Cortland with a chance to spoil Plattsburgh's perfect regional and SUNYAC record this Friday night as they host the Cardinals.
Fisher is still alive for the top spot in the E8 and has the easiest schedule of the top 4 teams this weekend. They need to win both games and hope for some help along the way. That loss to Ithaca on the 16th at Fisher is one they wish they had back. 11-3 would look pretty good right now.
So that's my take on the NY scene. Lets hear from the rest of you guys. Just keep it friendly.
Quote from: gobombers15 on February 17, 2008, 12:25:08 PM
Quote from: magicman on February 17, 2008, 03:50:56 AM
Stevens with a 2 game lead in the Empire 8 would have to lose to both Utica and Ithaca and lose all the tiebreakers to be denied the top seed in their inaugural season in the league. Despite all the chatter of them being a poor road team I think they get the job done Sunday against Utica.
See my post on the E8 board. If Ithaca and Stevens finish with the same conference record, Ithaca will host as a result of the third tiebreaker (road conference record). Today is very dangerous for Stevens. Utica had a nice win at Naz on Friday night and the Pioneers are always much tougher at home. Also, keep in mind Stevens only beat Utica by 1 in Hoboken (though, Passalacqua did miss that game).
gobombers,
Thanks for the tiebreaker info. And you were right on about Utica being tough against Stevens. I knew about that earlier 1 pt. loss at Stevens but I really thought this Stevens team would stay focused and take care of business against the Pioneers. I mean they were playing the 5th place team in the conference and you really don't want it to come down to the game against Ithaca to claim the prize. That's probably going to be a tougher challenge for the Ducks. I'm thinking (not predicting) that Ithaca beats Stevens, Naz beats Elmira, Fisher loses to Utica, then Naz beats Ithaca. Stevens wins the reg season with the tiebreaker over Naz. Kind of backing into it you might say. But I'm rooting for the Bombers because they've got the toughest row to hoe.
Hey Fisher--10-3 vs 14-1 even before the loss is not equal my man!! Do your math!!!Hope your not in business--You'd be going under--LOL
Magic, evrything you say seems right -on... one quetion, Does Fisher still have a shot at top spot in E-*... I thought only Stevens or Ithaca were alive for that? But I've been wrong before.... ;)
scooter what the hell are you talking about? what are you comparing? I was never comparing Fisher versus brockport on the east region rankings? You must still be in college as you obviously cannot interpret posts.
Fisher- I thought you were making some smart comment about 2nd place in SUNY's being equal to second place in E8, in terms of records. I was pointing out that a 10-3 record for second is not equivalent to a 14-1 record. That was my point--So if i misinterpreted your comment, young fella---sorry--I am probably old enough to be your father!!!
Magic man, I have seen Stevens a few times this year. You make an interesting point about them staying focused. I notice they rarely play poorly at the biginning of the game or when the second half begins. They have one point guard, Greco, an he seems like a tough kid, who makes few mistakes. When he comes out, they lose continuity, Grey is out of position, usually at the top of the key taking some 3's. He also seems to always find a way to get the ball to Williams inside. I'm not sure, was he in foul trouble at the end of the Utica game? He was a big part when Stevens overcame a 10 pt hole, then he was gone??? ;)
Quote from: FROMAFAR on February 19, 2008, 11:07:00 AM
Magic, evrything you say seems right -on... one quetion, Does Fisher still have a shot at top spot in E-*... I thought only Stevens or Ithaca were alive for that? But I've been wrong before.... ;)
No, Fisher cannot host. Fisher needs to sweep this weekend to even end up in a tie for the top spot. That means that Fisher has to beat Utica. If Fisher beats Utica, Utica cannot qualify for the E8 Tournament. That means Naz and Ithaca make it, no matter what. So, even though Ithaca, Stevens and Fisher are all 1-1 against each other, both Ithaca and Stevens defeated Nazareth while Fisher was swept by the Golden Flyers. Thus, Fisher loses on that tiebreak.
In other words, Fisher cannot finish with a better conference record than Stevens. Fisher cannot come in a tie with Stevens unless Fisher beats Utica (thus, putting Naz in the E8 Tourney). Stevens has the tiebreak because they swept Naz and Fisher was swept by Naz. The only way for Naz not to be in the tournament would mean that Utica must have beaten Fisher, thus knocking Fisher out of any possibility to host that way.
Thanks Gobombers, bear with me guys... ;)
Regional rankings came out today and as expected there was a shakeup at the top with Plattsburgh St. exchanging places with Univ. of Rochester. Everyone else remains in the same position as last week with Brockport St., Stevens, and Nazareth rounding out the top 5. Plattsburgh climbed into the 11th spot in the D3Hoops top 25 poll while UR dropped to 14th. Stevens nearly fell out of the poll, dropping all the way to 25th place. Brockport gained some more support and wound up in the 31st position.
Plattsburgh is the only school in the nation that remains undefeated in regional play. The next and final regional poll will be released on Feb. 27th.
Big weekend for the Bport Eagles--Geneseo on Senior Night!!!Don't look past them--They are tough at home and your two victories over them mean nothing with this one---Don't sleep on the backdoor plays--Good luck---Eagles by 10!!!
Geneseo 72 Brockport 62 That's why they play the games.
Bport dealt severe blow with loss to Knights---The SUNYAC tourney becomes a huge arena for the Eagles--Could possibly slide into NCAA's (Pool C) with a strong showing --two wins and finals loss to the Burg(only loss)--otherwise must win the tourney and seal the deal!!!! Go Eagles!!!
As pabegg puts it--The Eagles loss puts them" firmly on the bubble" for Pool C!!!Put the pedal to the metal, Eagles!!!
Quote from: scooterman on February 21, 2008, 10:13:56 PM
Big weekend for the Bport Eagles--Geneseo on Senior Night!!!Don't look past them--They are tough at home and your two victories over them mean nothing with this one---Don't sleep on the backdoor plays--Good luck---Eagles by 10!!!
Well, You got the 10 part right! ;D
Tough loss. Still think they get in if they make the Finals and lose to the Cards. But they have to make the finals. Which means you will face Cortland or Geneseo in the semi's once they take care of Oneonta. Which one do you want?
I would prefer Geneseo again--They packed it in and few touches inside lots of threes but still like the match ups better than Cortland match ups. Anyway, either way will be a good game if they get by Oneonta on Tuesday. Nothing is a given!!! Go Eagles--
Magic-If Bport beats Oneonta on Tuesday it would be probably be Oswego on Friday or Potsdam--Cortland or Geneseo will be playing the Burg---Could be very interesting weekend if all the higher seeds win!!!Go Eagles!!!
Actually if you read the brackets, they will reseed if there are any 1st round upsets.
for example if 1 & 2 hold serve, but 5 beats 4 and 6 beats 3, they will reseed and 6 will play 1 and 5 will play 2.
This was the case in hockey as well. Not seen it done this way any other place (e.g. the Big Dance), but this seems to be the way it will go down.
First Round Games
Fredonia at Plattsburgh 904 mile round trip in the teeth of a winter storm to get your brains beat in!
Oneonta at Brockport - 'port undefeated at home. Oneonta has a quality shooter in Fish, a solid swing man in Grimes, but may not be athletic enough to stay with the Hawks inside. Game will be more competitive than people think.
Potsdam @ Oswego - Bears almost beat Lakers in November in Oswego (missed inside shot with :03 left, then a confusing end game botched by the referee.) Bears have won 3 of 4, near miss at Cortland on Saturday and finally have most folks healthy. This should be a nail biter, if the weather doesn't intervene. Lakers had three games last week, will huge minutes by starters have an impact?
Geneseo @ Cortland - Will be a really ugly game. Knights may be hottest team in the league after Cards, and both teams have size and shooters. Niehoff - Morton duel should be a classic as will Howe - Lewis. Think the Knights may have a bit more firepower.
Listening to the weather reports around rochester, it seems that all the snow is going to be around Lake Ontario.
Put on your snow shoes Oswego and break out the dog sleds, here comes another foot or so.
Plattsburgh made the same trip to Fredonia and Buff St and didn't blow either team out. The Cards better not be looking forward, because if Tuesday is not a victory there will be no Fri and Sat in Plattsburgh, no chance to defend the title again and so on.
But there will be a Pool C Bid for the Cards regardless of what happens. As I recall, Brockport lost in the SUNYAC finals in '03-04, but got a first round bye, and a second round hosting assignment.
Quote from: thebear on February 25, 2008, 04:19:33 PM
But there will be a Pool C Bid for the Cards regardless of what happens. As I recall, Brockport lost in the SUNYAC finals in '03-04, but got a first round bye, and a second round hosting assignment.
Brockport is also in line to get a Pool C bid even with 1 more loss in the SUNYAC tournament. It looks like the only other NY team to get a Pool C bid will be Univ. of Rochester. No team from the Empire 8 or Liberty League will get a Pool C bid as it stands right now.
In the New England region it looks like Brandeis, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Trinity, and Rhode Island are probable Pool C recipients. That list could be shortened if the current conference frontrunners get upset in their respective tournaments. The UAA conference may end up with 4 bids. Washington U. or Chicago will win the automatic bid depending on the outcome of their game on Saturday March 1st. The loser of that game along with UR and Brandeis will stand a good chance to get in with Pool C's as they come out of 3 different regions.
Brockport also lost in the SUNYAC finals last year to PLattsburgh and got in and went to St. Lawrence, ultimately advancing to the great 8 and just missing out on the final 4.
Plattsburgh State Cardinals achieve their highest ever ranking in the D3Hoops Top 25 poll moving up 1 spot to # 10. They amassed a total of 411 points but are only 12 points out of 6th place. Augustana was 9th with 416, UW-Stevens Point 8th with 419, Washington U. 7th with 422, and Brandeis 6th with 423. Next week could bring more upward movement if they get it done this weekend. Go Cards!!!!
Think Stevens might have a chance for a pool C bid if they lose in the finals of the E-8 tournament. St Lawrence might have the faintest glimmer of hope for a pool C bid if they lose in the tournament final. They have wins over Brockport, Oswego, Ithaca, and Bates. Two losses in Fla won't count against them, I believe. Only a glimmer but a glimmer nonetheless. (That being said I don't think they'll lose on their home floor in the LL tournament and get the automatic bid anyway). ;)
I agree the Larries tough at home and playing pretty consistent b-ball second semester. Coach Downs has turned the corner with this group.
New regional rankings due out today. Final published ones for the season. They'll probably look something like this.
#1 Plattsburgh State
#2 Univ of Rochester
#3 Brockport State
#4 Ithaca College
#5 Stevens
#6 St. Lawrence
#7 Nazareth
#8 Oswego
Magic--You like Oswego over Geneseo? Only possible descending vote from me--
Magic--East rankings like St. Lawrence above my beloved Eagles!! I disagree--if they played 5 times Eagles win best of series---loss due to timing of scheduled game --the return of Lightnin Rod, Cantrel Parrish and the Davey "horse" Maldonato getting re-acclimated to team was huge factor--that's my opinion
Yeah plus - your Eagles thrashed the Bears in Potsdam, whereas the Bears outscored SLU at SLU. Both teams return virtually the same personnel from 06-07, and I believe 'port walloped SLU (74-49 or so) in Canton last season.
Loss to Geneseo on senior night when Eagles had been pounding opponents & taking names up to that point may have raised doubt amongst regional committee.
Know SLU's Downs was on the regional committee for the last few years, could have some favors owed. Dunn still earning his spurs, doesn't have quite the rep amongst the coaching fraternity.
Quote from: scooterman on February 27, 2008, 03:48:19 PM
Magic--East rankings like St. Lawrence above my beloved Eagles!! I disagree--if they played 5 times Eagles win best of series---loss due to timing of scheduled game --the return of Lightnin Rod, Cantrel Parrish and the Davey "horse" Maldonato getting re-acclimated to team was huge factor--that's my opinion
I agree with you. Brockport is the better team. Also thought Ithaca would climb over Stevens. The Ducks had 2 chances to clinch the E8 top seed and couldn't do it The Bombers had to beat the top 2 teams on back to back days and did.
Hey guys I hear what your saying- Bport is probably a better team than SLU in 5 games series, but if you're on the regional ranking committee it's tough to overlook the fact the SLU beat B-port head to head, Ithaca head to head, Oswego head to head. Their losses for the most part were early in the season with the most embarrassing one to Potsdam at home (their only home loss so far). That being said a trip of only about 10-11 miles for Potsdam to Canton negates a little bit of the home advantage. Bport better 1) win the SUNYAC tournament or 2) lose to Platts in final and hope that SLU either wins the Liberty League Tournament to get the auto bid (very likely) or gets beat in the first round by Clarkson (don't hold your breath-you'll turn blue and die) ie: very unlikely. That being said it would be a shame if Bport doesn't get in. After U of R and Platts they are probably the best team in region.
"...After U of R and Platts they are probably the best team in region...."
Oswego had something to say about that on Friday.
Oswego only beat them once out of three games!! and they didnt lose to Fredonia
ONCE, in three games. hmmm the ONCE, was in the SUNYAC Semi-Finals and
it really doesn't matter what was done in the regular season, does it ?
The chips were on the table and Brockport couldn't win the hand. (vague poker reference ;D)
Well let's put it another way--Who has gone deeper into the NCAA's in the last ten years--Bport or Oswego--That's an easy call---Bport, if given the chance, usually represents very well at that level!!!This team would be no exception
Magic--What's your thoughts--What are Bport's chances in your estimation?
Quote from: scooterman on March 01, 2008, 08:47:01 PM
Magic--What's your thoughts--What are Bport's chances in your estimation?
See my reply to you on the SUNYAC board.
"...Well let's put it another way--Who has gone deeper into the NCAA's in the last ten years--Bport or Oswego--That's an easy call---Bport, if given the chance, usually represents very well at that level!!!This team would be no exception..."
Unfortunately for Brockport history doesn't win games in the current season. Oswego beat them soundly when the opportunity was presented to both teams. For all the talk about Brockport's great team this season, they did not produce the results even close to predictions. Even a 5 point loss to the U of R is a loss. Losing to Geneseo in the last regular season game was just astounding for such a "good" team. The way they played last Friday against Oswego was extremely depressing because "I" expected them to murder Oswego in such an important game. I didn't see the problem to be coaching. He tried everything and most of the "key" performers came up with poor efforts. they didn't look like they wanted to play. Their bench cheerleaders got weaker and weaker during the 2nd half as Oswego pulled away. Totally deflated and no heart.
Cards,
When you come up for the 2nd round game on Sat. remind me to talk to you about the quote feature.
Final East Region Rankings as I see it.
1. Plattsburgh State NCAA Sweet 16 SUNYAC Champs-Nationally ranked all year
2. Univ. of Rochester NCAA Sweet 16- Nationally ranked all year
3. Nazareth NCAA Bid Empire 8 Champs
4. Brockport State ECAC Upstate NY Champs
5. Stevens Tech ECAC Metro Champs
magic--I cant argue the facts with you--I wish that Bport would have been in the E8 then it would have been an automatic bid for them!!!
How so they only beat fisher by 1 and fisher didnt win the E8. sorry scooter but your bport just didnt have the juice this year.
Does anybody know why Ithaca and some of the other E8 teams did not make the ECAC? Did they choose not to go? I know Ithaca won it or in the finals a few years ago.
Quote from: scooterman on March 18, 2008, 07:34:24 AM
Does anybody know why Ithaca and some of the other E8 teams did not make the ECAC? Did they choose not to go? I know Ithaca won it or in the finals a few years ago.
UC declined the invitation.
Quote from: scooterman on March 18, 2008, 07:34:24 AM
Does anybody know why Ithaca and some of the other E8 teams did not make the ECAC? Did they choose not to go? I know Ithaca won it or in the finals a few years ago.
There was also a problem with some of the teams already having used their 19 weeks for the season. The NCAA has a rule that limits you to 19 weeks of practice/competition for basketball. One day of practice in a week means you use the entire week. The 19 weeks includes ECAC type tournaments, but NCAA tournament allows competition beyond the 19 week limit.
If you take a two full weeks off for finals/Christmas, you're typically OK, but if you come back on say a Sunday, and your week is Monday to Sunday, you use a whole week.
Believe that was Ithaca's situation ...
First Regional Rankings: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2011/02/02/ncaas-mens-regional-rankings/
Dave who is your preseason top 6 in the region you would predict
That is a tough call... can you give me the weekend? Neck deep with the inaugural Hoopsville National Invitational Classic :).
Yes I will give you till monday
So, I was looking at the regional rankings and the Massey ratings and I was curious about how that all shook out, as the Massey ratings have some teams higher than others, while the regional rankings don't reflect that same lineup. I'm assuming it's because the ratings are through this weekend's games and the rankings came out before that.
EAST
1 Rochester (N.Y.) 18-1 19-1
2 SUNY Cortland 17-2 17-3
3 Stevens Institute of Technology 15-3 17-3
4 New York University 13-7 13-7
5 Hobart 12-6 13-6
6 SUNY Geneseo 14-6 14-7
Now, U of R is 20-2, having gone 1-1 since the rankings came out. Of course, the loss is out of region, against Wash U today, and the win is out of region as well, correct?
Cortland is 19-3, two wins in region
Stevens is 20-3, with their three wins all in region
NYU is 13-9, both of their losses were out of region, right?
Hobart is 16-6, their three wins are in region
Geneseo is 14-9, and both of their losses were in region.
Now, according to the latest Massey ratings, through Feb. 9, the top 10 teams in East, I believe (don't shoot me if I'm wrong, I don't usually try to figure such things out, but I was curious so I gave it a shot. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though) are:
1) U of R (Massey rating 6, sure to drop with today's loss by 19)
2) Cortland (21)
3) Stevens (48)
4) Hobart (60)
5) Union (74)
6) NYU (75)
7) Plattsburgh (78)
8) Oswego (87)
9) Ithaca (103)
10) Brockport (107)
Geneseo, which was sixth in the regional rankings, was 12th in the East in the Massey ratings at 128, behind Buffalo State which was rated 122nd.
I'm assuming the next regional rankings will have the same top 5, though, since U of R and NYU's games were out of region, right? And my other question is who the 6th team will be in the next rankings? I mean, according to Massey, it would be Union, but since their schedule strength is low, wouldn't Plattsburgh or Oswego seem more likely to get into the top 6?
Again, just curious how this is all shaking out. I appreciate the enlightenment from the much more informed board members.
Actually all conference games are in regions games.
Quote from: lileyes on February 10, 2013, 08:54:32 PM
Actually all conference games are in regions games.
Even the UAA games? I didn't think there weremany teams from that conference in the East Region.
Quote from: buck1053 on February 10, 2013, 10:49:19 PM
Quote from: lileyes on February 10, 2013, 08:54:32 PM
Actually all conference games are in regions games.
Even the UAA games? I didn't think there were many teams from that conference in the East Region.
buck,
Only Rochester and NYU are UAA teams in the East Region the other 6 teams are in various other regions but no matter the region they are in the games between conference members are in region. Here's the FAQ from D3hoops that will explain what constitutes an in region game. Please note example #3.
What is a regional game?
A game can be classified as regional in any of three ways.
Both teams are full Division III members (or third- or fourth-year provisional members) and:
1) are in the same Division III member conference or same region as defined by the appropriate Division III basketball committee. That list of regions is listed under the Teams drop-down menu at the top o this page.
2) The teams are within 200 miles of each other via the NCAA's approved mapping software.
3) The teams are within the same NCAA administrative region. Those regions are defined below.
Region 1: Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont.
Region 2: New York, Pennsylvania.
Region 3: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia.
Region 4: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming.
If the teams are in the same region by any one of these three definitions, it is a regional game.
Some examples: 1. Trinity (Texas) is scheduled to play the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater in a regular season game in Maine. Is this a regional game?
Answer: Yes. It doesn't matter where the game is played, only where the schools are from. Texas and Wisconsin are both in Region 4.
2. Merchant Marine plays Grove City. They are in different NCAA regions and are more than 200 miles apart.
Answer: This is a regional game. Merchant Marine is in New York, Grove City is in Pennsylvania. Both are in Region 2.
3. Carnegie Mellon (Pa.) plays Washington U. (Mo.). Answer: This is a regional game.
Although they are in different regions by every definition, both are members of the same Division III member conference, the UAA.
4. Albion (Mich.) plays Grand Valley State (Mich.).
Answer: This is not a regional game. Grand Valley State is not a Division III member. No game against a non-Division III member can ever be a regional game.
5. Wilkes (Pa.) plays Penn State-Abington.
Answer: This is not a regional game. Although both teams are in the same administrative region, Penn State-Abington is a second-year provisional member of Division III, not a full member or third- or fourth-year provisional member.
6. Johns Hopkins (Md.) plays Mary Washington (Va.) Answer: This is a regional game. Although Maryland and Virginia are in different administrative regions, both schools are in the Mid-Atlantic for men's basketball. In women's basketball, the schools are in different regions but fall within the 200-mile limit.
Also remember that only regional games count for regional rankings... AND Massey accounts all games, even against non D3 opponents and opponents opponents outside of D3 and the NCAA... so they have a very different data set.
And then there is the primary and secondary criteria that the regional committees must follow. Give the men's basketball pre-championship handbook a read (http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2013/mens-basketball-championships-handbook) - it will be helpful.
I love the NCAA administration regions.
According to them a game between Maine-Presque Isle & Catholic is "in region" (both are in admin region 1: Maine & D.C [Catholic]) but a game between Eastern Connecticut and Oneonta isn't (different regions, different conf, different admin regions greater than 200 miles).
For the record the milage between Oneonta and Eastern is 218 and the milage between Maine-Presque Isle and Catholic is 823.
Yep... the administrative regions have existed longer than the basketball ones... and that isn't the longest regional game against non-regional opponents. Michigan to Georgia or anywhere south could get you more miles.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 11, 2013, 11:27:32 PM
Yep... the administrative regions have existed longer than the basketball ones... and that isn't the longest regional game against non-regional opponents. Michigan to Georgia or anywhere south could get you more miles.
Region 4 must have some good ones. George Fox to Texas-Tyler or Redlands to Stevens-Point must approach 2,000 miles.
Well Redlands and Stevens Point are already in the West Region... but the Texas-Tyler-George Fox is a good one!
Shoot, in baseball Mississippi College and Puget Sound are both in the West Region, despite being further apart and not in the same administrative region at all.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 12, 2013, 12:32:20 AM
Shoot, in baseball Mississippi College and Puget Sound are both in the West Region, despite being further apart and not in the same administrative region at all.
Thus another reason regional realignment is such a priority right now.
The East is going to struggle to get Pool C bids this year. The top teams in the SUNYAC and E8 seem to be beating each other up. Plattsburgh is the only team that has had notable success in the out of conference portion of their schedule. Brockport has a very good record; yet does not have a noteworthy OOC win. NYU started the season strong but may be fading now in the midst of the UAA season.
Right now... I would be surprised if the East got an at-large bid. That being said... there could be one or two, but I am really not sure who at this point.
Depending on Who Keeps winning and whoever wins the conference tournament for E8 and SUNYAC. I think Brockport and Plattsburgh can stay relatively clean the rest of the way. They Both will deserve at Large bids. An Upset in the SUNYAC, which is very possible could bump another east region team from another conference. If Naz, Stevens, Fisher can stay clean they all have a shot also. Remember Naz technically only has 4 losses because Roberts Wesleyan is a Division 2 Opponent. Stevens and Fisher have 5 losses. I think if a team gets to 20 wins and get to the conference tournament final then they will have a shot on " Selection Sunday and Monday" depending on upsets in other regions and what not?
Do you disagree dave? PLEASE POST WHAT YOU GUYS THINK?
Not that it matters, but I thought Roberts Wesleyan was NAIA??
20 wins is usually the make or break point unofficially for at-large bids... but a lot of 20-win teams don't make the tournament. It is just usually a good guide that if you don't reach that many (meaning you have probably six or more losses), your chances are very unlikely of getting an at-large bid (unless you are Pool B - that is a completely different conversation that has no impact on the East Region).
Plattsburgh got an at large bid last year with a 19-8 record. I think the worst they end up this year if they don't win the SUNYAC tournament is 20-7 and that should be good enough to once again get an at large bid. If they do win the conference tournament, then Brockport should be in line to get a Pool C bid. I wouldn't count out a decent Geneseo team either. There's a reason Massey has the top 3 East Region teams as Brockport, Plattsburgh, and Geneseo.
I think if Plattsburgh & Brockport finish 1-2 in the YAC, that gets both of them into the tournament at seasons end. Geneseo still has 2 games against Brockport and a home game vs. Plattsburgh left this year I wouldn't count them out either if they went 2-1 in those 3 games.
Empire 8 looks horrible this year. That's a 1 bid league no matter who wins the league.
Hobart could get one of the LL, but they're on thin ice. Vassar has a lot of wins, but outside of Western Connecticut, none are that overly impressive, and even the Western one doesn't look that good. Even if there able to sweep Skidmore (already beat them on the road and win @ Hobart) I don't think that's enough for them.
NYU's loss to Emory tonight pretty much eliminated them if they weren't already after last weekend's trip to Chicago & Wash U.
Please refresh me on how the NCAA selection committee chooses its participates. All the criteria in the order of importance. Thanks
Quote from: scooterman on January 25, 2014, 08:46:27 AM
Please refresh me on how the NCAA selection committee chooses its participates. All the criteria in the order of importance. Thanks
Scooter
First you win, 6 or 7 games and only lose a couple. Then you win 6 or 7 more and only lose a couple more. Finally you win 6 or 7 more and only lose a couple. If you do that then it doesn't usually matter what the other criteria are, you'll get picked. If you fail to do that, then you won't go dancing. ;D
Quote from: magicman on January 25, 2014, 12:05:21 PM
Quote from: scooterman on January 25, 2014, 08:46:27 AM
Please refresh me on how the NCAA selection committee chooses its participates. All the criteria in the order of importance. Thanks
Scooter
First you win, 6 or 7 games and only lose a couple. Then you win 6 or 7 more and only lose a couple more. Finally you win 6 or 7 more and only lose a couple. If you do that then it doesn't usually matter what the other criteria are, you'll get picked. If you fail to do that, then you won't go dancing. ;D
That pretty much sums it up!!!
Quote from: 7express on January 24, 2014, 10:07:18 PM
I think if Plattsburgh & Brockport finish 1-2 in the YAC, that gets both of them into the tournament at seasons end. Geneseo still has 2 games against Brockport and a home game vs. Plattsburgh left this year I wouldn't count them out either if they went 2-1 in those 3 games.
Empire 8 looks horrible this year. That's a 1 bid league no matter who wins the league.
Hobart could get one of the LL, but they're on thin ice. Vassar has a lot of wins, but outside of Western Connecticut, none are that overly impressive, and even the Western one doesn't look that good. Even if there able to sweep Skidmore (already beat them on the road and win @ Hobart) I don't think that's enough for them.
NYU's loss to Emory tonight pretty much eliminated them if they weren't already after last weekend's trip to Chicago & Wash U.
Think about it 7express.. A good overall league means that most of the teams are competitive. there are 5 teams in the Empire with 11 wins right now. The Empire 8 is not horrible this year! I think the SUNYAC is better but after talking with Coaches in both leagues. The SUNYAC and Empire 8 are both very competitive league. A league with A lot of losses may be a good league. More teams that are good in the league means more losses for top tier teams.
Magic--thanks for that informative response--LOL--now I understand the process. I like the criteria. LOL
Official:
Primary Selection Criteria
The primary criteria emphasize competition leading up to NCAA championships; all criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order).
●● Win-loss percentage against Division III opponents.
●● Division III strength of schedule.
-- Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OWP).
-- Opponents' Opponents' Average Winning Percentage (OOWP).
●● Division III head-to-head competition.
●● Results versus common Division III opponents.
●● Results versus ranked Division III teams as established at the time of selection.
Note:
●● Conference postseason contests are included.
●● Contests versus provisional and reclassifying members in their third and fourth years shall count in the primary
criteria. Provisional and reclassifying members shall remain ineligible for rankings and selections.
Secondary Selection Criteria
If the evaluation of the primary criteria does not result in a decision, the secondary criteria will be reviewed. All the criteria listed will be evaluated (not listed in priority order). The secondary criteria introduce results against all other opponents from other classifications (i.e., provisionals, NAIA, NCAA Divisions I and II).
●● Non-Division III win-loss percentage.
●● Results versus common non-Division III opponents.
Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by the Basketball Committee.
Thanks for the information--Dave
HUGE week in the E8 coming up. The top four teams will be playing each other this weekend. Interesting to see if any teams will seperate themselves from the pack and make a claim to be ranked in the East.
The top 3 teams in SUNY look like the 3 best in the East to me---Not sure who the No. 4 team should be?
Quote from: scooterman on January 29, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
The top 3 teams in SUNY look like the 3 best in the East to me---Not sure who the No. 4 team should be?
Hobart or NYU will be #4. Vassar, Hartwick and Stevens will battle it out for the 6th spot. A 2-0 weekend by Hartwick or Stevens may propel them above Vassar due to SOS.
Your Forgetting about the Team who just beat St John Fisher last night. Nazareth! Technically Roberts Wesleyan and Alfred State games do not count. so the Golden Flyers are 11-4. With Wins against Hartwick, Fisher. Why the Hell aren't they in Consideration even if they beat Stevens and lose to Hartwick?
Quote from: NYHOOPS8 on January 29, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: scooterman on January 29, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
The top 3 teams in SUNY look like the 3 best in the East to me---Not sure who the No. 4 team should be?
Hobart or NYU will be #4. Vassar, Hartwick and Stevens will battle it out for the 6th spot. A 2-0 weekend by Hartwick or Stevens may propel them above Vassar due to SOS.
Quote from: dcahill44 on January 29, 2014, 12:36:02 PM
Your Forgetting about the Team who just beat St John Fisher last night. Nazareth! Technically Roberts Wesleyan and Alfred State games do not count. so the Golden Flyers are 11-4. With Wins against Hartwick, Fisher. Why the Hell aren't they in Consideration even if they beat Stevens and lose to Hartwick?
Quote from: NYHOOPS8 on January 29, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: scooterman on January 29, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
The top 3 teams in SUNY look like the 3 best in the East to me---Not sure who the No. 4 team should be?
Hobart or NYU will be #4. Vassar, Hartwick and Stevens will battle it out for the 6th spot. A 2-0 weekend by Hartwick or Stevens may propel them above Vassar due to SOS.
Going by your hypothetical, how would a loss to Hartwick make them worthy of consideration of propelling them over Hartwick? Hartwick has the better conference record, the better SOS, the best win of the two (Stevens), has a better in-region record and would have split with Nazareth head to head. As of today, Nazareth would not have a better resume than Stevens so I would not put Naz ahead of them at this point.
I think if Naz wins 1 they are in good shape in the conference. Stevens has a better in region record cause they haven't played nearly as many in-region games as Nazareth. Hartwick will have 7 losses if they lose 1 this weekend. The last spot is between Stevens, Hartwick and Naz depending on how the weekend goes
Quote from: dcahill44 on January 29, 2014, 12:36:02 PM
Your Forgetting about the Team who just beat St John Fisher last night. Nazareth! Technically Roberts Wesleyan and Alfred State games do not count. so the Golden Flyers are 11-4. With Wins against Hartwick, Fisher. Why the Hell aren't they in Consideration even if they beat Stevens and lose to Hartwick?
Quote from: NYHOOPS8 on January 29, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: scooterman on January 29, 2014, 08:32:21 AM
The top 3 teams in SUNY look like the 3 best in the East to me---Not sure who the No. 4 team should be?
Hobart or NYU will be #4. Vassar, Hartwick and Stevens will battle it out for the 6th spot. A 2-0 weekend by Hartwick or Stevens may propel them above Vassar due to SOS.
Well so long as you're going to throw Naz into the mix, why not Alfred? Hey, the Saxons have a horrible non-conference SOS, but they've beaten both Naz and Fisher and, should they continue their success against Utica Friday night and Elmira Tuesday night, they will still have only two conference losses (both road losses at Hartwick in OT & Stevens). With the Naz-Fisher-Hartwick-Stevens weekend on tap, there will be 4 Ws and 4 Ls among those four. Like I said, if the Saxons can get by Utica and Elmira, and even should those "top four" all split the weekend, Hartwick will have 2 losses, Stevens and Naz will have 3 and Fisher will have 4. Just sayin'
On Saxon Warriors!
The Horrible non-conference schedule will kill the Saxons. never will be regionally ranked. For an example the Hilbert team of last year won 20 games and wasn't close to being regionally ranked. Id like to see Alfred play Naz or Fishers schedule and see how it fairs.
Quote from: dcahill44 on January 30, 2014, 09:40:17 AM
The Horrible non-conference schedule will kill the Saxons. never will be regionally ranked. For an example the Hilbert team of last year won 20 games and wasn't close to being regionally ranked. Id like to see Alfred play Naz or Fishers schedule and see how it fairs.
Agreed. (As previously stated.) AU's non-conference schedule was likely designed for the Saxons to build up some confidence with a new playing scheme. Pep figured once conference play began, the Saxons would tailspin. So far, they are holding their own. But as you have pointed out, the non-conference schedule will not get the Saxons in the regional rankings...so the AQ may be their only ticket. One game at a time.
On Saxon Warriors!
Quote from: AUPepBand on January 30, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: dcahill44 on January 30, 2014, 09:40:17 AM
The Horrible non-conference schedule will kill the Saxons. never will be regionally ranked. For an example the Hilbert team of last year won 20 games and wasn't close to being regionally ranked. Id like to see Alfred play Naz or Fishers schedule and see how it fairs.
Agreed. (As previously stated.) AU's non-conference schedule was likely designed for the Saxons to build up some confidence with a new playing scheme. Pep figured once conference play began, the Saxons would tailspin. So far, they are holding their own. But as you have pointed out, the non-conference schedule will not get the Saxons in the regional rankings...so the AQ may be their only ticket. One game at a time.
On Saxon Warriors!
I would not be surprised to see Alfred tied on top of the standings by Sunday.
Quote from: dcahill44 on January 29, 2014, 04:04:52 PM
I think if Naz wins 1 they are in good shape in the conference. Stevens has a better in region record cause they haven't played nearly as many in-region games as Nazareth. Hartwick will have 7 losses if they lose 1 this weekend. The last spot is between Stevens, Hartwick and Naz depending on how the weekend goes
Derrick,
What you are forgetting, or unaware of, is what now constitutes a regional game. The rules were changed this year and basically most of the teams in the East Region (if not all of them) will play nothing but regional games. (There are a few exceptions and Nazareth is a team with some exceptions) Let me give you an example using Plattsburgh State.
Plattsburgh's record is 13-3. According to the rules that were in place last year the Cardinals would have a regional record of 10 wins and 2 losses. The games against Richard Stockton, a loss and the 3 wins against Bridgewater State, Millikin, and UW-Stout would be out of the region,hence the 10-2 regional record.
However due to the rule changes every single game that Plattsburgh played this year is considered a regional contest. So their regional record is the same as their overall record 13-3.
Now lets look at Stevens Tech and Nazareth.
Stevens has a 12-5 overall record. Every game they played, like Plattsburgh is against an NCAA Division III opponent. Therefore they are all regional games and their regional record is 12-5.
Nazareth has a 12-5 overall record as well, but as you mentioned the Roberts Wesleyan game, a loss and the Alfred State game, a win, do not count. Since those teams are not NCAA Division III teams that reduces Nazareth's regional record to 11-4.
Therefore your statement that Stevens doesn't have as many in region games as Nazareth is incorrect, Derrick because Stevens actually has more in region games than Nazareth.
And as I mentioned a little while ago when you asked me who I would rank as the top 6 teams in the region, it's still too early to be doing that. I suppose it's nice to guess who the best teams are right now, but the first set of Regional Rankings won't be released for nearly two weeks, on February 12th. That's a week later than they have been released in the past few years. There's still a lot of basketball to be played between now and then, that will have a big effect on the rankings. ;)
I hope this helps.
To make the explaination easier... if a team plays 70% of their games in their region (or as regional games per the definition of regional games we have been using for years), then ALL of their games will count towards primary criteria. We may see "regional record" on the SOS data in a few weeks (I don't know what it will actually look like), but primary criteria is now all-games-count unless you didn't hit the threshold (and didn't get a waiver). If that is the case, then only your in-region record will count in primary criteria.
If curious... 18 games is the magic numbers as 70% of a basketball schedule max of 25 games is 17.5. And no conference tournament games count towards the 70%... it has to be the schedule submitted to the NCAA before the season begins (I think that deadline is in September).
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 31, 2014, 05:38:20 PM
To make the explaination easier... if a team plays 70% of their games in their region (or as regional games per the definition of regional games we have been using for years), then ALL of their games will count towards primary criteria. We may see "regional record" on the SOS data in a few weeks (I don't know what it will actually look like), but primary criteria is now all-games-count unless you didn't hit the threshold (and didn't get a waiver). If that is the case, then only your in-region record will count in primary criteria.
If curious... 18 games is the magic numbers as 70% of a basketball schedule max of 25 games is 17.5. And no conference tournament games count towards the 70%... it has to be the schedule submitted to the NCAA before the season begins (I think that deadline is in September).
Thanks Dave,
I went to the front page but couldn't find that info, and I hoped you'd come on and post exactly what you did. I knew it was something like that but didn't want to guess. Thanks for doing it so quickly. Our young friend, Mr. Cahill will now know the ropes about the regional games, as will we all. ;D The 70% figure will apply to every team in the East Region, I believe, for now and forever. ;D
Glad to see that you made the goal for Hoopsville and hope that the total just keeps rising. Coach Curle was very happy with the show and would love to do it again sometime. I had an enjoyable time as well. You do a great job with the program and I'm glad it will get upgraded with some better equipment for you. 8-) Nice contribution near the end of the marathon to get you over the top.
An upset by Stevens tonight against Williams will put a major wrinkle in the East rankings. I was shocked to see Geneseo receive more votes in the top 25 than Plattsburgh so I am now unsure what 2-6 may look like in the coming weeks.
Heres how i think the Rankings look like as of right now!
1. Brockport
2. Geneseo
3. Plattsburgh
4. Stevens
5. NYU
6. Hobart
I think Naz, Vassar, Skidmore and maybe Alfred if they keep winning are in contention. Think Naz (if they keep winning) can jump NYU cause they are going to lose a lot more games i think in the UAA Conference
With Regional Rankings on its way this week heres how I think the East Regional Rankings will look like
1. Brockport
2. Plattsburgh
3. Geneseo
4. NYU
5. Hobart
6. Stevens
I think Nazareth is 7th and Vassar 8th. Main reason I think Stevens is ahead of Naz is because they beat them twice.
I think you have NYU too high. Their SOS is probably going to be below .500 (considering they play in the UAA, that is a horrible SOS) and their winning percentage is .750. I can't see them being ahead of Hobart who will probably have a much better SOS than NYU and already has a better winning percentage.
I think Brockport will be #1 with Plattsburgh and Geneseo probably sitting behind them thanks to the fact Geneseo has a win over Hobart in the head-to-head criteria.
Not sure why you would have Vassar eighth... their SOS is about the same as Stevens and they have a far better winning percentage. And just because of winning percentage, I would probably put NYU ahead of Stevens. The only criteria I can't answer is vRRO... but the regional committees won't have that either... only the national committee will have that and I am now not sure if they will use it in the opening week.
Mine would probably be:
1 - Brockport
2 - Plattsburgh
3 - Geneseo
4 - Hobart
5 - Vassar
6 - NYU
I got clarification... as in years past, there will be no vRRO in the first week. My previous information indicated the national committee would make adjustments with the new data they get (like they do on the last regional rankings), but this is indeed not the case.
Dave where are you getting your SOS ratings from?
I agree with Dave's initial rankings. Stevens may have a shot at the 6th spot with their win over NYU but the winning percentage should be too much to overtake them. If Plattsburgh keeps on winning, their SOS may ride them to the top spot by the 2nd week.
My SOS numbers are based on the math done by a fellow poster, KnightSlappy. Go to the Pool C thread to see his latest numbers.
He will admit he doesn't know if his math is exactly how the NCAA's will come out, but until Wednesday his are the best to go on in my opinion.
I kind of liked the fact that KnightSlappy has my Cardinals in the top spot of the East Region, with Brockport 2nd and Geneseo 3rd. 8-)
Not sure if the NCAA will follow suit but I think they will be up there somewhere. I don't really care where they are right now as much as I will 3+ weeks down the road. ;D
I do like the fact that KnightSlappy has Plattsburgh with a #6 National ranking followed by Brockport at #7 and Geneseo at #11. That looks like a 3 bid league to me if they can keep those marks close to those numbers. Still a lot of basketball to be played yet. Hopefully none of these 3 teams will falter against the remaining teams on their schedules that they should beat.
FYI - those are based on his RPI projections... something he does... not based on SOS or criteria from the NCAA committee.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 10, 2014, 11:53:25 PM
FYI - those are based on his RPI projections... something he does... not based on SOS or criteria from the NCAA committee.
Dave,
I know those figures are KnightSlappy's and not the NCAA's but he's always had a good track record over the years. If he has the SUNYAC teams rated that highly, that's a good sign and I'll take it. 8-)
I don't disagree... I just want to make sure you realize his rankings are based on data, not necessarily the primary criteria.
Final week 1 Regional Ranking prediction is
1. Brockport
2. Geneseo
3. Plattsburgh
4. NYU
5. Hobart
6. Stevens.
Nazareth and Vassar in the mix.
How in the world do you have Plattsburgh below Geneseo?
Plattsburgh: 16-4
Geneseo: 16-3
The two have split their head-to-head.
Plattsburgh has a win over Brockport... Geneseo does not.
Plattsburgh has a strong SOS than Geneseo.
Quote from: dcahill44 on February 11, 2014, 03:38:54 PM
Final week 1 Regional Ranking prediction is
1. Brockport
2. Geneseo
3. Plattsburgh
4. NYU
5. Hobart
6. Stevens.
Nazareth and Vassar in the mix.
Were Alfred (16-5, 7-3) to beat Nazareth (15-6, 7-3) a second time, would you consider Alfred to be "in the mix." After all, Naz lost twice to Stevens, while AU split with the Ducks. Makes no difference, really, to Pep, but just was wondering your thoughts on Alfred. Pep realizes the Saxons are an "upstart" in the discussion this year and really carry no clout, but Pep remains hopeful, especially after last weekend, that the Saxons will make the E8 Conference Tourney. ;)
On Saxon Warriors!
No because Alfred's winning percentage and SOS are pretty weak compared to the rest.
Regional rankings are out... more information here: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/02/12/2014-ncaa-regional-rankings-week-1/ (http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/02/12/2014-ncaa-regional-rankings-week-1/)
Our friend was pretty accurate... if not dead right. I wonder why he never responded to our questions? ;)
Funny you say that Dave! Computer was not working last night or else I would have