This is a board suggested by Titan Q to track schools' overall record and winning percentages solely as a member of Division III.
This isn't really a board for a prolonged discussion of the findings. Let's keep the banter out of it and the conversation to a low threshhold so we can keep the data easy to navigate.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 03, 2006, 09:31:32 PM
I have Wooster's media guide in front of me, preparing for tomorrow night's game.
Starting in 1974-75 and extending through last season, Wooster is 588-256, .697.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 03, 2006, 09:02:05 PM
I'm curious to know what the list looks like as well, Greg. I just checked IWU's record as a Division III team. In 22 seasons from 1983-84 through 2004-05...
433-176 (.711)
Wittenberg's year-by-year records if anyone has time to figure out their cumulative from 1974-75 through 2004-05...
http://www5.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/records/alltimeyearbyyearrecords.html
Catholic was a Division II and Division I member until the 1981-82 season. Since then, Catholic is 427-227, .653 entering this season.
Is there a central location to find out when teams first joined d3? I might compute a few, but I generally have no idea what starting date to use, and many school's websites are less than forthcoming on such info.
I'm not 100% sure of this (I'll have to check with our AD tomorrow) but I think that UWSP first joined D3 in 1997, when the WSUC merged with the WWIAC and became the WIAC, a D3 conference. Some members (Whitewater, Platteville, maybe a few others) had dual membership, but, as far as I know, UWSP did not.
1997 22-7
1998 17-8
1999 15-10
2000 25-5
2001 18-7
2002 21-6
2003 24-4
2004 29-5
2005 29-3
200-55
With this season (currently 12-7) they would be 212-62 for a winning % of 77.4%.
The ASC joined D3 in 1996. The conference members began completing Provisional status in the 1996-97 season.
For the seasons 1997-98 thru 2004-05
McMurry is 162-49 for a .768 winning percentage.
I would say that NJCU is close to 550 wins. They have been in D3 since the beginning. I am just guestimating on the win total, Coach Brown has been the head coach for 22 years and he is around 450 wins. I am pretty sure Ira has this information on the website, I will check.
I think we need to post the number of wins and winning percentage due to the continual growth of D-III.
Quote from: knightstalker on February 04, 2006, 12:52:27 AM
I would say that NJCU is close to 550 wins. They have been in D3 since the beginning. I am just guestimating on the win total, Coach Brown has been the head coach for 22 years and he is around 450 wins. I am pretty sure Ira has this information on the website, I will check.
I think we need to post the number of wins and winning percentage due to the continual growth of D-III.
Since 74-75 NJCU is 590-353 for a winning percentage of .625.
Coach Brown was 444-199 for a .691 winning percentage at the beginning of this season, it is his 24th at NJCU.
It will be interesting to see this board develop, but with no offence to Point or Ralph and certainly nothing against what your teams have accomplished thus far, I'll be more curious to see teams with say... over 500 DIII games.
NWHope Fan, no offense taken. I hope that each school would tell us when they joined D3, so we can get a perspective of the growth of D3, which I think is the premier amateur competition in the country.
The D3 of today, without the WIAC, or the NWC, or the ASC among others, would be a different creature. The NAIA debates on the football boards highlight how extremely competitive D3 is now, with all of those successful athletic programs in the NAIA now succeeding by D3 rules.
Sometimes, I wonder if we aren't considered party crashers by the old elite , who don't win as many championships as they used to win.
I'd rather have all in D-3 who want to be in D-3 - playing by the rules and all. If it was about championships, then those schools should be in D-2 or D-1 anyway.
+1, smed! ;)
While certainly nowhere among the elite, Wentworth Institute of Technology entered the NCAA (and as a D-III member) in 1984-85. Entering this season, the Leopards have an all-time mark of 185-337.
http://www.wit.edu/athletics/varsity/basketball_m/yearly.htm
Near as I can figure, in their 32nd D3 season, Augustana is 540-293 (.648) through last night's win.
Knightstalker,
I was curious as to why NJCU had played so many more games than Augie in the same amount of years. I think if you double-check, the Gothic Knights are 590-269 (.687) through the end of last year.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 05, 2006, 12:17:28 AM
Sometimes, I wonder if we aren't considered party crashers by the old elite , who don't win as many championships as they used to win.
Could be!!! ;) ;D
Knightstalker,
If 590 is accurate then it would put them slightly ahead of Wooster's rumored total of 588 (at least for this week). It might be the most since then.
Also, nice mention of NJCU in ESPN magazine this issue; have you seen it yet? I guess one of Randy Foy's mentors played ball at NJCU.
Through last season, Potsdam is 510-253, for a .668 winning percentage.
Jerry Welsh's D-III career record (17 years) when he retired in '91 was
375-104 (.783) and 33-11 (13 appearances, 9 regional titles) in the NCAA Tournament.
Question?
Why are folks starting their stats from the '74-'75 season, as I determined that the NCAA created the current Division III in 1973. (So says our beloved SID)
Agreed, but the first Division III championship was 1974-75 for men's basketball. Before then I suppose you could have teams from the old college division settling between the two divisions and we might not really know where they stood in any particular season.
Quote from: dansand on February 05, 2006, 02:28:38 PM
Knightstalker,
I was curious as to why NJCU had played so many more games than Augie in the same amount of years. I think if you double-check, the Gothic Knights are 590-269 (.687) through the end of last year.
You are right, that is what I get for adding on a calculater, I do better with a column of numbers.
Starting with the 74-75 season NJCU is 590-269 for a winning percentage of .686. The average record is 19-9 (rounded up)
Counting the 20-6 73-74 season they are 610-275 for a winning percentage of .689. The average record is still 19-9.
Starting with 73 is ok by me. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 06, 2006, 02:10:27 PM
Agreed, but the first Division III championship was 1974-75 for men's basketball. Before then I suppose you could have teams from the old college division settling between the two divisions and we might not really know where they stood in any particular season.
Thanks Pat. That helps Hope by a half percent ;D
Hope College from the '74-'75 season through The Albion Game on 2/4 is 586/814 for 71.9%
Glen Van Wieren in his 29th season has led the Flying Dutchmen to a 556/748 record at 74.3% (although his second season is the worst in Hope history at a dismal 5/17 If you eliminate this early coaching, transition year from his record his winning percentage jumps to nearly 76%)
As I was looking at the records for Hope, one thing jumped out at me that I don't understand. In 1984 Hope played 2 NCAA games, losing both. Why did they play a second game?
>Heidelberg, Ohio 75, Hope 69 (NCAA)
>Capital, Ohio 83, Hope 77 (ot) (NCAA)
??? ??? ???
Quote from: NW Hope Fan on February 06, 2006, 03:03:24 PM
As I was looking at the records for Hope, one thing jumped out at me that I don't understand. In 1984 Hope played 2 NCAA games, losing both. Why did they play a second game?
>Heidelberg, Ohio 75, Hope 69 (NCAA)
>Capital, Ohio 83, Hope 77 (ot) (NCAA)
??? ??? ???
Nevermind... Regional 3rd place games. Who would have cared about playing for third in the region? The season was over after the first loss??!!
Probably why they got rid of them.
It is only one game, but why would that count on a record. It seems that it would constitute nothing more than an exibithion. And it would bring Hope up to an even 72% ;)
Wabash, entering this season, was 410-368 in the D-3 era.
Quote from: NW Hope Fan on February 06, 2006, 03:17:24 PM
It is only one game, but why would that count on a record. It seems that it would constitute nothing more than an exibithion. And it would bring Hope up to an even 72% ;)
D3 still plays a third place game in the Final Four... the logic behind it, as I understand it, is that the fans came out to see their teams play... and so they toss the ball up one more time. I can't say how it feels to play in that game... The only times I played in Salem, we won Championships!
My feeling is that the logic behind the 3rd place game at the regional would be for the same reason... the fans came out, so they guaranteed showing them two games.
Just my take, I may very well be wrong!
I think It would be easier on everyone's eye and brains if we just counted games through the 05 season.
We can add this year at the end of the year.
Come on SAC, don't you just love adding a 20-1 (so far) record to ours?
I know what you mean though. Makes sense.
I will glady add a one loss season to Hope's total because I know what that would mean.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2006, 06:48:29 PM
Quote from: NW Hope Fan on February 06, 2006, 03:17:24 PM
It is only one game, but why would that count on a record. It seems that it would constitute nothing more than an exibithion. And it would bring Hope up to an even 72% ;)
D3 still plays a third place game in the Final Four... the logic behind it, as I understand it, is that the fans came out to see their teams play... and so they toss the ball up one more time. I can't say how it feels to play in that game... The only times I played in Salem, we won Championships!
My feeling is that the logic behind the 3rd place game at the regional would be for the same reason... the fans came out, so they guaranteed showing them two games.
Just my take, I may very well be wrong!
No, you got it exactly right, PS. Third-place games are played because fans go to all of the trouble to travel to Salem for the Final Four -- and it
is a lot of trouble to travel to Salem, unless you're an ODACer or a CACer or a whatever-the-Dixie-is-calling-itself-now'er, although the latter conference has never had a member team get that far.
The same principle held true for the quartet of teams that played in one gym in each regional back in the old days, and I'm sure that one of the reasons why they got rid of those games is the fact that traveling to the regional didn't tend to be as much of a hike as it was to get to the Final Four site. Still, those regional consolation games counted then, and they count towards the records now. Too bad, since Wisconsin-Whitewater beat North Park in the '86 Midwest Regional conso, so as a result the Park is only 1-1 against the Warhawks in postseason play rather than 1-0.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 08, 2006, 05:38:32 AM
and it is a lot of trouble to travel to Salem
I know that Salem is a "nice place" to play the championships, but I agree with what you are saying. With air travel as potentially as expensive as it is, and the drive a bugger... why not find a place that is in say, the middle of the country near and air hub. Besides, with the majority of the champions coming from the "center" of the country, I would venture to say the NCAA could sell a lot more tickets to "other" fans.
IWU played in the 3rd place game in 1996 and 2001. I've heard former IWU head coach Dennie Bridges (who coached both of those games) speak a number times about how difficult the consolation game is to play. Your team suffers a heart-breaking defeat on Friday night and then the next day at about 3:00pm you have to lace 'em up one more time. For the first time all season, you play a game that really has no meaning.
IWU defeated Franklin & Marshall 89-57 in 1996 after the devastating loss to Rowan the night before on a late tip-in basket, and the Titans beat Ohio Northern 76-73 in 2001 in Bridges' final game. As a fan it was nice to see the team play one final game...as a player I think it would be really difficult to play that 3rd place game though.
I think the folks in Salem do such a nice job hosting the Division III Final Four, and I've enjoyed myself at the event so many times, that I can't bring myself to suggest it should be moved. I do wish more people got to go though - geographically Salem is not in a very good spot and I think that is reflected in the attendance.
Bloomington, Illinois, the town I live in, is building a 7000 seat multi-purpose arena (arena football, hockey, concerts, etc)...
http://uscellularcoliseum.com/renderings/
I've heard a couple board members (who are also CCIW fans) suggest trying to make a bid on the Division III Final Four. Their theory is that Bloomington is more accessible to a greater % of D3 fans than Salem, Va is. Not sure how one would actually verify that. Bloomington is in a pretty good spot geographically, being a 2 hr drive from Chicago, 2.5 from Indy, 2.5 from St. Louis, and with a really nice and convenient regional airport which brings connecting flights in from Chicago, St. Louis, and Atlanta.
It will probably never happen, but who knows. Salem is a nice town and I hope it stays there.
The women's tournament will be played in Springfield, Mass this year and next. The site has rotated to a new site every couple years with the recent hosts being Virginia Beach (Virginia Wesleyan), Terre Haute (RHIT) and Danbury, Connecticut (Western Connecticut.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 08, 2006, 03:35:12 PM
Your team suffers a heart-breaking defeat on Friday night and then the next day at about 3:00pm you have to lace 'em up one more time. For the first time all season, you play a game that really has no meaning.
Consolation games are awful for players and coaches. Franklin & Marshall lost a heartbreaker of a semifinal game to Calvin at the buzzer in 2000, then had to come back 18 hours later and play in a game that basically meant nothing while still feeling that stab wound in the heart.
Throughout the tournament, each game is more important and more intense than the previous one, but then it's like playing a preseason game after losing the Super Bowl. It was a credit to IWU to rebound from the devastating loss to (D-I) Rowan and play well the next day. I know why the NCAA has the game, and I see the logic behind it, but I don't necessarily agree with it.
I checked Franklin & Marshall's record from 1974-75 through last season. The Diplomats are 666-204 in that span, a 76.6 winning percentage. F&M happened to enter its best years right around the time D-III came on the scene. I'll update F&M's record after this (rather unfortunate) season...
Another reason for the consolation games that we haven't mentioned yet is the money. I know its not a lot of gate revenue, but the NCAA hates losing money on the d3 tourney and they could care less about how the kids feel if it gets them 33% more gate profits or they can justify charging more for the whole package. It's not like those visiting fans would do anything else during that time.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 03, 2006, 09:34:36 PM
This is a board suggested by Titan Q to track schools' overall record and winning percentages solely as a member of Division III.
This isn't really a board for a prolonged discussion of the findings. Let's keep the banter out of it and the conversation to a low threshhold so we can keep the data easy to navigate.
Yeah, well, so much for that.
Does it ever work that way, DC?
Quote from: David Collinge on February 09, 2006, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 03, 2006, 09:34:36 PM
This is a board suggested by Titan Q to track schools' overall record and winning percentages solely as a member of Division III.
This isn't really a board for a prolonged discussion of the findings. Let's keep the banter out of it and the conversation to a low threshhold so we can keep the data easy to navigate.
Yeah, well, so much for that.
David,
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Here are some very interesting items from Wittenberg's basketball history. I will check the won-lost record when I get a chance because it may not include part or all of this season.
Witt was also a power in the College Division, winning the tournament in 1961. In those days, there were only two divisions. Ray Mears was the coach and went from there to Tennessee in the SEC. Every Tiger coach who has left since then has coached in Division I.
Winningest basketball program in NCAA Division III history by victories (1,507) and percentage (.712).
More appearances (23) and victories (42) in the NCAA Division III tournament than any other program.
More first team All-Americas (7) than any other Division III program
1977 NCAA Division III champion.
1961 NCAA College Division champion.
NCAA Division III runner-up two times: 1983, 1976
1963 NCAA College Division runner-up
NCAA Division III third-place finisher three times: 1980, 1987, 1994
NCAA Division III regional or sectional champion eight times: 1975, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1983, 1985, 1987, 1994
NCAA College Division Great Lakes Regional champion three times: 1961, 1962, 1963
I had to type my post above twice because the preview did not work as expected.
The second time I left off my source for the info:
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/records/tradition.html
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on February 28, 2006, 08:25:40 PM
Here are some very interesting items from Wittenberg's basketball history. I will check the won-lost record when I get a chance because it may not include part or all of this season.
Witt was also a power in the College Division, winning the tournament in 1961. In those days, there were only two divisions. Ray Mears was the coach and went from there to Tennessee in the SEC. Every Tiger coach who has left since then has coached in Division I.
Winningest basketball program in NCAA Division III history by victories (1,507) and percentage (.712).
More appearances (23) and victories (42) in the NCAA Division III tournament than any other program.
More first team All-Americas (7) than any other Division III program
1977 NCAA Division III champion.
1961 NCAA College Division champion.
NCAA Division III runner-up two times: 1983, 1976
1963 NCAA College Division runner-up
NCAA Division III third-place finisher three times: 1980, 1987, 1994
NCAA Division III regional or sectional champion eight times: 1975, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1983, 1985, 1987, 1994
NCAA College Division Great Lakes Regional champion three times: 1961, 1962, 1963
tiger fan, what I notice about the list is that Witt has not been too successful in the last decade, as numerous schools have left the NAIA to join D3.
Quote from: Ralph Turner
tiger fan, what I notice about the list is that Witt has not been too successful in the last decade, as numerous schools have left the NAIA to join D3.
Well, Ralph, I am not sure what your definition of success is, but Witt is 224-56 in the ten years through 2005. That's 80 percent exactly. Their winning percentage since Division III started is .806. So if your point about the NAIA joiners was that competition is improving in D3, that makes the recent 80 per cent all the more impressive.
Tiger fans thank you for pointing that out!
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on February 28, 2006, 08:25:40 PM
Winningest basketball program in NCAA Division III history by victories (1,507) and percentage (.712).
That stat above is for the Wittenberg program since the beginning.
I ran some numbers and got the following as Witt's record since the beginning of Division III through last year as:
721 wins and 173 losses for a percentage of 80.6
Source: http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/records/alltimeyearbyyearrecords.html
Thanks for the chance to clarify myself. You are winning more games in the year, but no Regional or Sectional championships since 1994.
Maybe this year...Wittenburg defeats Mississippi College (which was in D2 before joining the ASC) in the Elite 8. :-\
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 28, 2006, 11:48:30 PM
Thanks for the chance to clarify myself. You are winning more games in the year, but no Regional or Sectional championships since 1994.
Maybe this year...Wittenburg defeats Mississippi College (which was in D2 before joining the ASC) in the Elite 8. :-\
One could argue that changing conferences explains Wittenberg's track record over the past decade (Witt moved from the OAC to the NCAC in 1990 or thereabouts). Their winning percentage has actually gotten higher, but their tournament success has dropped off. I interpret these trends as meaning that:
* the opportunity to play in a circuit that includes the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon), rather than the invariably rugged OAC that's almost always competent from top to bottom, has allowed the Tigers to fatten up their regular-season records over the past decade and a half; and
* the Tigers may not be as prepared on a year-to-year basis for the rigors of tournament play as they used to be back in the day when they had to run a two-month gauntlet through the OAC. I recognize that Wittenberg does try to play at least a few tough teams in the non-conference portion of their sked every year, and they do get three cracks a year at perennially nasty Wooster (one of them is invariably the title game of the NCAC tourney); but as any WIAC, CCIW, or OAC fan will tell you, in terms of tournament prep work there's no substitute for having to endure a two-month grind of rivalry games with nothing (or almost nothing) in the way of gimmes. Which team do you think will be better prepared for March: The team that's playing two games apiece against the likes of John Carroll, Otterbein, Ohio Northern, and Baldwin-Wallace, or the team that's playing two games apiece against the likes of Hiram, Allegheny, Kenyon, and Oberlin?
* finally, the Great Lakes region of which Wittenberg is a member hasn't gotten any easier over the past decade and a half. If anything, it's even tougher now than it used to be -- and it was plenty tough twenty or thirty years ago.
Thank you, Greg. I did not know that history. That makes even more sense.
+1 Karma! ;) :)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 01, 2006, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 28, 2006, 11:48:30 PM
Thanks for the chance to clarify myself. You are winning more games in the year, but no Regional or Sectional championships since 1994.
* the opportunity to play in a circuit that includes the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon), rather than the invariably rugged OAC that's almost always competent from top to bottom, has allowed the Tigers to fatten up their regular-season records over the past decade and a half; and
I was not excited about Witt leaving the OAC, believe me. Over the years, the administration has deemphasized athletics there. The OAC was indeed a much tougher league.
It is important to note, however, that the members of the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon) also came from the OAC. They were among the original founders of the NCAC. Wittenberg followed a few years later. However, they were also stronger when they were in the OAC.
I still enjoy rooting for the Tigers from Cincinnati which has become a lot easier with the internet. But it is not the same as the old days in the OAC.
Um, did you mean to add something to that quote?
For what it is worth to add information from one of the "new" D3 schools...
Puget Sound joined as full members of D3 in the 99-00 season, having a posted a total record of 112-63 since. Year by year is listed below. Obviously the last three years have accounted for over half the total wins.
99-00: 8-15
00-01: 14-10
01:02: 11-14
02-03: 12-13
03-04: 24-3 NWC champion, round of 16
04-05: 22-4 NWC champion, round of 16
05-06: 21-4 NWC champion, ????
Total: 112-63 (.640)
The overall record totals do not reflect wins/losses against only D3 teams, which may or may not be the case for other records under discussion on this board.
Curious if anyone has information on repeat conference winners and how many is considered "a lot" (technical term!)...wouldn't shock me to hear of a team winning 10+ in a row, but just trying to put the Loggers run in perspective. Three in a row has not happened in the NWC for some time.
GS,
I know it's just speculation... but your take on the Wittenberg situation would probably just add fuel to the fire of the "schedule tough games" discussion we had earlier in the CCIW room. The discussion previously had been purely non-conference games... but it makes more sense if it is the bulk of a schedule, like the conference schedule. This really just fuels the fire and shows why, historically, the toughest conferences have done well when given the chance to dance.
Though Wooster has had good runs coming out of the NCAC recently, as well.
Hamilton appears to be 624-216 since 74-75 for a 74.3%
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 01, 2006, 11:20:20 AM
Um, did you mean to add something to that quote?
Did I do that incorrectly?
I was not excited about Witt leaving the OAC, believe me. Over the years, the administration has deemphasized athletics there. The OAC was indeed a much tougher league.
It is important to note, however, that the members of the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon) also came from the OAC. They were among the original founders of the NCAC. Wittenberg followed a few years later. However, they were also stronger when they were in the OAC.
I still enjoy rooting for the Tigers from Cincinnati which has become a lot easier with the internet. But it is not the same as the old days in the OAC.
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on March 01, 2006, 11:04:54 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 01, 2006, 05:25:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 28, 2006, 11:48:30 PM
Thanks for the chance to clarify myself. You are winning more games in the year, but no Regional or Sectional championships since 1994.
* the opportunity to play in a circuit that includes the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon), rather than the invariably rugged OAC that's almost always competent from top to bottom, has allowed the Tigers to fatten up their regular-season records over the past decade and a half; and
I was not excited about Witt leaving the OAC, believe me. Over the years, the administration has deemphasized athletics there. The OAC was indeed a much tougher league.
It is important to note, however, that the members of the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon) also came from the OAC. They were among the original founders of the NCAC. Wittenberg followed a few years later. However, they were also stronger when they were in the OAC.
I still enjoy rooting for the Tigers from Cincinnati which has become a lot easier with the internet. But it is not the same as the old days in the OAC.
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on March 01, 2006, 08:44:42 PM
It is important to note, however, that the members of the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon) also came from the OAC. They were among the original founders of the NCAC. Wittenberg followed a few years later. However, they were also stronger when they were in the OAC.
Just for the sake of historical accuracy, I should point out that Hiram was not a founding member of the NCAC. The conference was formed in 1983 with charter members Allegheny, Case Western Reserve, Denison, Kenyon, Oberlin, Ohio Wesleyan, and Wooster. Wittenberg and Earlham joined for the 1989-90 academic year. Case departed for the UAA after the 1998-99 academic year. Hiram and Wabash joined for the 1999-2000 academic year, bringing the NCAC to its current compliment of 10 teams.
All of the Ohio-based schools (Case, Denison, Hiram, Kenyon, Oberlin, OWU, Wittenberg, and Wooster) were members of the OAC prior to joining the NCAC.
I am continually struck by the poignancy of the idea of the North Coast.
Atlantic or East Coast--the Outer Banks
Pacific or West Coast--Big Sur
North Coast--Lake Erie? ??? ::) :-\
Beautiful Lake Erie? C'mon its one of the Great Lakes!! I mean its not an ocean, but it is an overpolluted waterway with passage to the ocean, right? That means something doesn't it?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2006, 09:21:34 AM
Beautiful Lake Erie? C'mon its one of the Great Lakes!! I mean its not an ocean, but it is an overpolluted waterway with passage to the ocean, right? That means something doesn't it?
Just as I said, poignancy! ;D :D ;D
Quote from: David Collinge on March 02, 2006, 02:16:51 AM
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on March 01, 2006, 08:44:42 PM
It is important to note, however, that the members of the Trip-Over-Their-Own-Shoelaces Society (Hiram, Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon) also came from the OAC. They were among the original founders of the NCAC. Wittenberg followed a few years later. However, they were also stronger when they were in the OAC.
Just for the sake of historical accuracy, I should point out that Hiram was not a founding member of the NCAC.
All of the Ohio-based schools (Case, Denison, Hiram, Kenyon, Oberlin, OWU, Wittenberg, and Wooster) were members of the OAC prior to joining the NCAC.
Excellent point about Hiram. I just remembered them in the OAC so I made a bad assumption. I haven't lived in Springfield for a long time so I didn't get all the details on the NCAC as time went along. The main news for me in those days was that Witt had left the OAC, which was not a good thing.
I did not know that Case was in the OAC. When were they in? The last I knew they were in the Presidents Athletic Conference.
I am glad to have found this forum. In Cincinnati, there is no one to talk to about Wittenberg sports. When I mention Division III, everyone wants to change the subject, including my son who attended his first Tigers game when he was 4.
Thanks.
Welcome TigerFan, you have stumbled upon the land of misfit toys, known as d3hoops.com.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 02, 2006, 09:21:34 AM
Beautiful Lake Erie? C'mon its one of the Great Lakes!! I mean its not an ocean, but it is an overpolluted waterway with passage to the ocean, right? That means something doesn't it?
It's actually pretty clean now. And it was always fairly clean at the Buffalo end; the public beaches in Erie County, NY have always been popular. It was Cleveland's harbor at the estuary of the Cuyahoga River (that once famously caught on fire) that was filthy.
Lake Erie is so shallow (it's more like the world's widest river than it is a Great Lake) that it flushes out fairly quickly, which made detoxing it a lot easier.
It actually is a beautiful lake, especially in the winter. Because it's so shallow, it's the only Great Lake that freezes over. There's something awe-inspiring about looking at the vast expanse of Lake Erie once it's frozen over; it's like going back in a time machine to the Ice Age when a glacier covered the entire region.
awe inspiring and Lake Erie are 4 words I would have a hard time stringing together, but to each his own. ;)
Tiger Fan 1973----Seems like every school in Ohio was once a member of the OAC :D. You can add Kent State and Akron to the list of OAC and Ohio NCAC schools as once being members.
and.........Xavier, Cincinnati, Ohio, Case and Western Reserve (they were once separate), Ashland, Toledo, Findley and Bowling Green.
So I wasn't far off, maybe its easier to say every school in Ohio except THE Ohio State University has been in the OAC.
And in the MIAA former members include Michigan Agricultural College and Michigan Normal College.
M.A.C is the easy one to figure out who they are now... but bonus for figuring out who Michigan Normal College is ______________
That would be Mr Y's school......Eastern Michigan University. 8)
can't get anything by you SAC
here's some karma...
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 08:38:00 PM
That would be Mr Y's school......Eastern Michigan University. 8)
Bingo!
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 07:45:43 PM
and.........Xavier, Cincinnati, Ohio, Case and Western Reserve (they were once separate), Ashland, Toledo, Findley and Bowling Green.
So I wasn't far off, maybe its easier to say every school in Ohio except THE Ohio State University has been in the OAC.
I notice Miami was not on your list - would they be another exception?
I mispelled Miami with a blank space........they should be on that list.
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 08:48:05 PM
I mispelled Miami with a blank space........they should be on that list.
In that case, you just might be right that it is EVERY Ohio school except TOSU (if they're gonna be a pretentious as
THE University of Michigan, they can now be TOSU - and Michigan is henceforth TUM)!
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on March 02, 2006, 02:59:40 PM
I am glad to have found this forum. In Cincinnati, there is no one to talk to about Wittenberg sports. When I mention Division III, everyone wants to change the subject, including my son who attended his first Tigers game when he was 4.
Glad you found us too!
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 08:38:00 PM
That would be Mr Y's school......Eastern Michigan University. 8)
Chuck's school used to be called Michigan Normal College? So many punchlines ... can't decide ... can't decide ... :D
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 07:38:45 PM
awe inspiring and Lake Erie are 4 words I would have a hard time stringing together, but to each his own. ;)
Over the past 24 hours on Posting Up I've waxed pedantic in various rooms about Lake Erie, the monastic tradition of brewing beer, and whether or not there really is a place in Germany called Wittenburg with a "u" instead of an "e".
I really need to see a basketball game.
Sager - Do you work the night shift or just not have a life?
Quote from: knightmoves on March 03, 2006, 08:00:01 AM
Sager - Do you work the night shift or just not have a life?
Gregory has probably gone home to sleep! :)
While most of us sleep, he is keeping us safe. His night job is what allows him to answer his number 1 calling in life, the serious assessment of CCIW, North Park U and NCAA D3 athletics. :)
A delightful host, the inimitable Mr. Sager is the man to see if you ever need a "fix" of Chicagoland D3 sports. He will even arrange for you to see the largest collection of NCAA D3 National Basketball Championship banners in existence! ;)
I always thought the German Wittenburg was spelled with a 'u' but maybe I was mistaken.
Quote from: sac on March 02, 2006, 07:45:43 PM
and.........Xavier, Cincinnati, Ohio, Case and Western Reserve (they were once separate), Ashland, Toledo, Findley and Bowling Green.
So I wasn't far off, maybe its easier to say every school in Ohio except THE Ohio State University has been in the OAC.
Wow. I didn't know all that history.
Thanks.
The way I've always remembered the spelling of "that school" is to remember that they're a bunch of hillbillies and not cityfolk.
Auf Deutsch, "berg"=mountain, "burg"=town.
:D
I wonder if they gave out AB degrees at Michigan Normal? I'm not sure I'd want one of those diplomae. ;D
Quote from: David Collinge on March 03, 2006, 05:55:43 PM
The way I've always remembered the spelling of "that school" is to remember that they're a bunch of hillbillies and not cityfolk.
Auf Deutsch, "berg"=mountain, "burg"=town.
:D
I wonder if they gave out AB degrees at Michigan Normal? I'm not sure I'd want one of those diplomae. ;D
A 'normal school' is a frequently used term for a teachers' college. (WHY, is another question!) After Michigan Normal broadened beyond just an ed. school, they became Eastern Michigan College, then with further expansion became EMU. But it has always awarded baccalaureates, right from its start in 1849.
...uh, it was a joke, Y. (AB-Normal) :-\
Quote from: David Collinge on March 03, 2006, 06:50:56 PM
...uh, it was a joke, Y. (AB-Normal) :-\
We've been on break this week - you were just too subtle for a vacationing brain! :-[
Thanks, Ralph!
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 03, 2006, 08:01:18 PM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 03, 2006, 06:50:56 PM
...uh, it was a joke, Y. (AB-Normal) :-\
We've been on break this week - you were just too subtle for a vacationing brain! :-[
Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a 7 1/2' long, 54" wide gorilla? Is that what you're telling me?
oh man, why do I always miss the funny boards when they are being funny these days
(insert belated laughter) :D :D :D
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on February 28, 2006, 11:04:01 PM
I ran some numbers and got the following as Witt's record since the beginning of Division III through last year as:
721 wins and 173 losses for a percentage of 80.6
Source: http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/mbasketball/records/alltimeyearbyyearrecords.html
Updated through the 2005-06 season, Franklin & Marshall's all-time Division III record is 679-216 (75.9 percent). Wittenberg looks like a lock for the top spot, while F&M could be second.
Source for F&M: http://server1.fandm.edu/departments/Athletics/mbasket/rec_year.html
So Ypsi, is it Bugermeister Meisterburger?
Quote from: Hiker Jim on April 07, 2006, 12:56:42 AM
So Ypsi, is it Bugermeister Meisterburger?
Huh? Is another joke going over my head?
Don't worry; it was over my head as well.
I had to do womething about basketball today - so I updated Hope's all-time D3 record:
594-230 for a 72.1% percentage through the 2005-2006 season
I've got Scranton at 617 wins, 4 final fours, and 2 national championships.
Through the 2005-06 season Grove City is 413-360 for a .534 winning percentage.
This board kind of fizzled after we started it but I wonder if we can get some records together here.
Illinois Wesleyan's overall record as a D3 institution through 2005-06 is...
* 458-183 (.716)
* 23 seasons, starting 1983-84
* 18 tournament appearances
* 39-18 (.684) tournament record
I looked up a couple of ASC schools...
Hardin-Simmons 115-133 since 1996
McMurry 194-70 since 1996
Mississippi College is 378-117 since 1988 for a .764 winning percentage. I'm not sure if 1988 was there first year of D3 play though.
Wittenberg and Wooster are both NCAA D3 charter members. Since 1974-75, they have compiled these records:
Wittenberg: 751-177 (.809) entering the 2006-07 season (currently 7-2, 758-179, .809). The Tigers have 26 20+-win seasons, and have never won fewer than 18 games as a D3 school. They have appeared in 24 of the 32 D3 national tournaments, and have won 47 tournament games. I believe that all of these stats (wins, win %, 20-win seasons, tourney appearance, tourney wins) are D3 records.
Wooster: 614-260 (.703) entering the 2006-07 season (currently 9-1, 623-261, .705). The Scots have 18 seasons of 20 wins or better, including the last 10 in a row, and have participated in 15 D3 national tournaments.
These two NCAC foes are also #1 and #2 on the all-time wins list for current D3 schools. Witt has 1544 wins since 1911-12, and Wooster has either 1429 or 1430 (there is a forfeit win in 1963 that the NCAA evidently disputes.) Illinois Wesleyan stands third at 1426.
Something I found funny in looking at some Wabash seasons in the past. Back in ye olde daye, if Wabash had a good team, they scheduled a lot of games. If they didn't, they didn't play that many games. I wonder if that was common???
McMurry's first full year in D3 was 1997-98. Drop the 14-12 record in 1996-97 and you have 180-58 (.756).
Quote from: David Collinge on December 28, 2006, 08:29:42 PMWittenberg: 751-177 (.809) entering the 2006-07 season (currently 7-2, 758-179, .809). The Tigers have 26 20+-win seasons, and have never won fewer than 18 games as a D3 school. They have appeared in 24 of the 32 D3 national tournaments, and have won 47 tournament games. I believe that all of these stats (wins, win %, 20-win seasons, tourney appearance, tourney wins) are D3 records.
They are, and the Tigers own another D3 record: Most Final Fours, with seven (1976, 1977, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1994, and 2006). North Park, Potsdam State, and UW-Platteville are next, with five apiece, so that's a pretty healthy lead for Wittenberg.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 29, 2006, 02:45:20 AM
Quote from: David Collinge on December 28, 2006, 08:29:42 PMWittenberg: 751-177 (.809) entering the 2006-07 season (currently 7-2, 758-179, .809). The Tigers have 26 20+-win seasons, and have never won fewer than 18 games as a D3 school. They have appeared in 24 of the 32 D3 national tournaments, and have won 47 tournament games. I believe that all of these stats (wins, win %, 20-win seasons, tourney appearance, tourney wins) are D3 records.
They are, and the Tigers own another D3 record: Most Final Fours, with seven (1976, 1977, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1994, and 2006). North Park, Potsdam State, and UW-Platteville are next, with five apiece, so that's a pretty healthy lead for Wittenberg.
Thanks. Wittenberg has 1 championship (1977), three second-place trophies, and three third-place trophies from those Final Four appearances. They also have one first (1961) and one second (1963) from the old College Division.
Found out this week Hope was a charter member of D3, I assume the rest of the MIAA was as well.
Since 74-75 thru 05-06 Hope is 594-230 for .721
17 NCAA Tournament appearances 20-19 record
Two Final Fours in 1996, 1998 both runner-up
Here are Point's DIII results from the '96-'97 season through '06-'07 (carried over from the top 25 discussion):
1996-97 22-7
1997-98 17-8
1998-99 15-10
1999-2000 25-5
2000-01 18-7
2001-02 21-6
2002-03 24-4
2003-04 29-5
2004-05 29-3
2005-06 17-10
2006-07 26-3
So, that totals 243-68 for a winning percentage of 78.1
This discussion somehow bled into the Top 25 room, so in response to a request in there I'm posting the all-time top D3 tourney winning percentages here:
All-time best D3 tourney winning %s (minimum .700)| 1. Ohio Wesleyan | 5-0 | 1.000 |
| 2. UW-Platteville | 30-5 | .857 |
| 3. North Park | 26-6 | .813 |
| 4. UW-Stevens Point | 17-4 | .810 |
| 5. Oneonta State | 4-1 | .800 |
| 5. Brooklyn | 4-1 | .800 |
| 7. *LeMoyne-Owen | 15-5 | .750 |
| 7. UW-Eau Claire | 6-2 | .750 |
| 9. Williams | 25-9 | .7353 |
| 10. Potsdam State | 36-13 | .7346 |
| 11. Rowan | 29-11 | .725 |
| 12. Connecticut College | 5-2 | .714 |
| 13. Carthage | 7-3 | .700 |
* no longer a D3 member
Since several of those schools have made only limited appearances (one, two, or three) in the D3 tourney, this next list will weed those out and indicate only those who have put their winning percentage on the line in a lot of tournament games:
All-time best D3 tourney winning %s, minimum ten wins (minimum .600)| 1. UW-Platteville | 30-5 | .857 |
| 2. North Park | 26-6 | .813 |
| 3. UW-Stevens Point | 17-4 | .810 |
| 4. *LeMoyne-Owen | 15-5 | .750 |
| 5. Williams | 25-9 | .7353 |
| 6. Potsdam State | 36-13 | .7346 |
| 7. Rowan | 29-11 | .725 |
| 8. Illinois Wesleyan | 39-18 | .684 |
| 9. Rochester | 23-11 | .676 |
| 10. Augustana | 22-11 | .667 |
| 11. Wittenberg | 47-24 | .662 |
| 12. UW-Whitewater | 22-12 | .647 |
| 13. Amherst | 20-11 | .645 |
| 14. Clark | 26-15 | .634 |
| 15. Otterbein | 22-13 | .629 |
| 16. Calvin | 30-18 | .625 |
| 17. Scranton | 33-20 | .623 |
| 18. Gustavus Adolphus | 18-11 | .621 |
| 19. William Paterson | 22-14 | .611 |
| 19. Wilkes | 11-7 | .611 |
| 21. Nebraska Wesleyan | 24-16 | .600 |
| 21. John Carroll | 18-12 | .600 |
| 21. Virginia Wesleyan | 12-8 | .600 |
There are three members of the Twenty-Win Club that fall short of the .600 mark:
| Franklin & Marshall | 32-23 | .582 |
| Hope | 22-20 | .524 |
| Salem State | 21-22 | .488 |
Incidentally, Wooster's right at the break-even mark with a 17-17 record.
According to the NCAA Championship book the D3 leaders in all-time wins are:
1. Wittenberg 1,537
2. Illinois Wesleyan 1,420
3. Wooster 1,402
4. St. Thomas 1,373
5. Hope 1,344
6. Nebraska Wesleyan 1,303
Not sure about the most NCAA D3 Final Four appearances, but Nebraska Wesleyan has appeared in 5 D3 Final Fours most recently in 1997
Quote from: haterinthehouse on November 01, 2007, 09:50:21 AM
According to the NCAA Championship book the D3 leaders in all-time wins are:
1. Wittenberg 1,537
2. Illinois Wesleyan 1,420
3. Wooster 1,402
4. St. Thomas 1,373
5. Hope 1,344
6. Nebraska Wesleyan 1,303
Not sure about the most NCAA D3 Final Four appearances, but Nebraska Wesleyan has appeared in 5 D3 Final Fours most recently in 1997
That book is both a year out of date and incorrect. Coming into last season, Wooster had 1,420 wins recognized* by the NCAA, not 1,402 as incorrectly listed. The NCAA has the right data, they just transposed the digits. Adding in the 2006-07 results, the new top of the list is
1. Wittenberg 1,559
2. Wooster 1,449
3. IWU 1,431
*Wooster has a forfeit win on their books (claiming 1,450 wins) that as of two years ago the NCAA does not recognize. I believe that negotiations are ongoing between the warring factions. :)
As regards Final Four appearances, see above:
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 29, 2006, 02:45:20 AM
Quote from: David Collinge on December 28, 2006, 08:29:42 PMWittenberg: 751-177 (.809) entering the 2006-07 season (currently 7-2, 758-179, .809). The Tigers have 26 20+-win seasons, and have never won fewer than 18 games as a D3 school. They have appeared in 24 of the 32 D3 national tournaments, and have won 47 tournament games. I believe that all of these stats (wins, win %, 20-win seasons, tourney appearance, tourney wins) are D3 records.
They are, and the Tigers own another D3 record: Most Final Fours, with seven (1976, 1977, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1994, and 2006). North Park, Potsdam State, and UW-Platteville are next, with five apiece, so that's a pretty healthy lead for Wittenberg.
Quote from: David Collinge on November 01, 2007, 10:20:10 AM
That book is both a year out of date and incorrect. Coming into last season, Wooster had 1,420 wins recognized* by the NCAA, not 1,402 as incorrectly listed. The NCAA has the right data, they just transposed the digits. Adding in the 2006-07 results, the new top of the list is
1. Wittenberg 1,559
2. Wooster 1,449
3. IWU 1,431
*Wooster has a forfeit win on their books (claiming 1,450 wins) that as of two years ago the NCAA does not recognize. I believe that negotiations are ongoing between the warring factions. :)
Who was that forfeit win against? And can I see the play by play for Wooster's 11-7 loss to Mt. Union in OT in 1932??
Quote from: smedindy on November 01, 2007, 10:43:32 AM
Quote from: David Collinge on November 01, 2007, 10:20:10 AM
That book is both a year out of date and incorrect. Coming into last season, Wooster had 1,420 wins recognized* by the NCAA, not 1,402 as incorrectly listed. The NCAA has the right data, they just transposed the digits. Adding in the 2006-07 results, the new top of the list is
1. Wittenberg 1,559
2. Wooster 1,449
3. IWU 1,431
*Wooster has a forfeit win on their books (claiming 1,450 wins) that as of two years ago the NCAA does not recognize. I believe that negotiations are ongoing between the warring factions. :)
Who was that forfeit win against? And can I see the play by play for Wooster's 11-7 loss to Mt. Union in OT in 1932??
Central State, Dec. 13, 1963. And no. ;D
Can you imagine a radio broadcast? Wait, no, I have, when Western Boone played Crawfordsville in 1987, the final was 18-16 in OT. I was the engineer for that game. Excitement plus, I tell ya!
It's interesting to me to see the winning percentage of UWSP during the years selected is better in the NCAA tournament than it has been for the regular season. Now, this could show a couple of different things... either Point has had some stellar seasons and some mediocre ones... or it might show that Point plays against pretty tough competition during the regular season (possibly even tougher?).
I wonder what the winning percentages of regular season vs. NCAA tournament is for other top programs.
I also found myself wondering what the winning percentages were for conferences in the quest for Salem. Maybe we should start a DIFFERENT thread for things like this! I seem to recall a thread about one conference's record against another... but maybe I'm just confused.
Quote from: PointSpecial on November 01, 2007, 12:50:56 PM
I also found myself wondering what the winning percentages were for conferences in the quest for Salem.
I believe Mr. Sager has those numbers as well.
Quote from: haterinthehouse on November 01, 2007, 09:50:21 AM
Not sure about the most NCAA D3 Final Four appearances, but Nebraska Wesleyan has appeared in 5 D3 Final Fours most recently in 1997
No, NWU has only been in four D3 Final Fours:
1985 -- third place (lost to North Park, beat Widener)
1986 -- third place (lost to LeMoyne-Owen, beat New Jersey City)
1988 -- third place (lost to Ohio Wesleyan, beat Hartwick)
1997 -- second place (beat Williams, lost to Illinois Wesleyan)
NWU did appear in the 1962 NCAA College Division Final Four, finishing fourth. The College Division records are now kept as part of the official D2 records. D3 records in men's basketball do not begin until 1974-75, the first season that the sport was offered on this level.
Quote from: sac on November 01, 2007, 01:42:50 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on November 01, 2007, 12:50:56 PM
I also found myself wondering what the winning percentages were for conferences in the quest for Salem.
I believe Mr. Sager has those numbers as well.
Give me another day or so to find it all. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2007, 04:20:48 AM
Quote from: sac on November 01, 2007, 01:42:50 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on November 01, 2007, 12:50:56 PM
I also found myself wondering what the winning percentages were for conferences in the quest for Salem.
I believe Mr. Sager has those numbers as well.
Give me another day or so to find it all. ;)
Off-season research proposal...
I shall be happy to assist in determining the all-time conference playoff records, since the beginning of the Pools, as Pat Coleman has done on the front page of the d3Football.com board.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 28, 2008, 02:30:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2007, 04:20:48 AM
Quote from: sac on November 01, 2007, 01:42:50 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on November 01, 2007, 12:50:56 PM
I also found myself wondering what the winning percentages were for conferences in the quest for Salem.
I believe Mr. Sager has those numbers as well.
Give me another day or so to find it all. ;)
Off-season research proposal...
I shall be happy to assist in determining the all-time conference playoff records, since the beginning of the Pools, as Pat Coleman has done on the front page of the d3Football.com board.
What year did the Pool's start...........I can handle the MIAA its really easy to figure out on their site. I imagine we'd like A's records, B's records and C's records.
Anything else? let me know
You guys are gluttons for punishment.
First year of pools was 1999-2000.
MIAA Pool A's
2000 Calvin 5-0 National Champ
2001 Calvin 1-1 2nd round
2002 Hope 1-1 2nd round
2003 Hope 0-1 2nd round
2004 Calvin 0-1 2nd round
2005 Calvin 5-1 Third place
2006 Hope 2-1 Sweet 16
2007 Calvin 1-1 2nd round eliminated by Hope
2008 Hope 4-1 Third place
Total: 19-8
Pool C's
2005 Albion 2-1 Sectional Final eliminated by Calvin
2006 Calvin 1-1 2nd round eliminated by Hope
2007 Hope 3-1 Sectional Final
Total 6-3
Overall total 25-11, eliminated by fellow MIAA teams 3 times. MIAA teams earned 5 first round byes.
Hope 10-5, 7-4 as A, 3-1 as C
Calvin 13-5, 12-4 as A, 1-1 as C
Albion 2-1, 2-1 as C
I have the South Region in a Excel file.
| Conf/Year | Pool Yrs Tot. |
| |
| ASC | 12-13 Bye4 |
| |
| ASC-East | 6-8 Bye2 |
| MissColl | 6-7 Bye2 |
| UT-D | 0-1 |
| |
| ASC-West | 6-5 Bye2 |
| McMurry | 3-2 Bye2 |
| SRSU | 2-1 |
| UMHB | 1-2 |
| |
| Dixie/USAC | 3-9 Bye1 |
| CNU | 3-4Bye1 |
| NC Wes | 0-1 |
| Methodist | 0-2 |
| Averett | 0-2 |
| |
| GSAC | 9-9 Bye1 |
| Maryville | 9-9 Bye1 |
| |
| ODAC | 27-17 Bye5 |
| H-SC | 7-5 Bye2 |
| RMC | 3-5 Bye2 |
| Roanoke | 2-2 |
| Va Wes | 12-3 Bye |
| Guilford | 3-2 |
| |
| SCAC | 11-12 Bye2 |
| DePauw | 2-3 Bye1 |
| Millsaps | 3-2 |
| Trinity | 4-5 Bye1 |
| Centre | 2-2 |
| |
| Independents |
| SCAD | 1-3 |
| UDallas | 0-1 |
Corrections are appreciated.
I can take a look at the WIAC sometime this week... pretty busy at work today, otherwise I'd have it sooner!