Anyone know where I can get the list of Academic All-Americans? I know CoSIDA will post them on the website and they have the women's up already. The men's list should be posted today, but some people have it already. Any leads as to where I can find it?
I found it at Illinois Wesleyan's website (http://www2.iwu.edu/menssports/basketball/030106aaa.shtml).
Here's the list, copied from there, with D3 players in
bold.Quote2006 ESPN The Magazine Academic All-America®
College Division Men's Basketball Team
FIRST TEAM
Keelan Amelianovich, Illinois Wesleyan, Sr., Naperville, Ill., 3.82, Accounting
Dusty Jura, Nebraska-Kearney, Jr., Columbus, Neb., 3.93, Sports Administration
Zach Wheatley, Chapman (Calif.), Sr., Fountain Valley, Calif., 3.97, Mathematics
Andrew St. Clair, Colby-Sawyer College, Sr., Pittsfield, Maine, 3.68, Exercise and Sports Science
Matt Drahos, Bethany (W.Va.), Sr., Wheeling, W.Va., 3.51, Biology
SECOND TEAM
Jason Greenlee, LaVerne (Calif.), Sr., San Dimas, 3.89, Accounting
Troy Ruths, Washington U., So., Sugar Land, Texas, 4.0, Computer Science
Matt Causey, North Georgia College & State University, Jr., Gainesville, Ga., 3.75, Biology
Andy Warnock, Ohio Wesleyan, Sr., Delaware, Ohio, 3.93, Economics Management
Mike Drahos, Bethany (W.Va.), Sr., Wheeling, W.Va., 3.65, Psychology
THIRD TEAM
Chris Braier, Lawrence, Sr., Wauwatosa, Wis., 3.56, Biology
Brandon Bushey, York (Pa.), Sr., Littlestown, Pa., 3.89, Criminal Justice
Alan Bock. Mount Vernon Nazarene University, Sr., Tallmadge, Ohio, 3.99, Biology (Pre-Medicine)
Clayton Barlow-Wilcox, Carnegie-Mellon, Sr., Brookline, Mass., 3.65, Business Administration and Social and Cultural History
Mike D'Auria, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Sr., Newton, Mass., 3.49, Materials Science and Engineering
Congratulations to all of these outstanding student-athletes, and especially to Mr. & Mrs. Drahos! :)
It should probably be noted that Keelan Amelianovich was picked as the "Academic All American of the Year" :)
Note that even though this team covers D-II, D-III and NAIA, 12 of the 15 honorees are from Division III.
I love this game.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 01, 2006, 05:27:43 PM
Note that even though this team covers D-II, D-III and NAIA, 12 of the 15 honorees are from Division III.
But of course, Pat - it is
Academic All-American! ;D
[Just a cheap joke, guys! While I suspect that the 'average' d3 school is rather superior to the average in the other 3 divisions, there are some fine schools in d2 and both divisions of NAIA (and probably some d3 schools my dog could get into).]
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 01, 2006, 05:36:56 PM...and probably some d3 schools my dog could get into.]
Which brings us, ahem, to SUNY Farmingdale. I was just talking to a Long Island friend today who told me that they are just a few years away (in the past) from being a powerhouse junior college program. He predicted that in the not too distant future they'll be one of the tougher DIII teams nationally.
Yes, but at least your dog will have a degree!
Quote from: smedindy on March 01, 2006, 07:55:27 PM
Yes, but at least your dog will have a degree!
I'm just worried I'll get stuck with the student loans. (I'm not certain that her paw-print is a legally-binding signature.) David, did the California bar exam touch on such issues? ;D
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 01, 2006, 06:08:36 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 01, 2006, 05:36:56 PM...and probably some d3 schools my dog could get into.]
Which brings us, ahem, to SUNY Farmingdale. I was just talking to a Long Island friend today who told me that they are just a few years away (in the past) from being a powerhouse junior college program. He predicted that in the not too distant future they'll be one of the tougher DIII teams nationally.
Actually SUNY Farmingdale was an academically top rated junior college with fairly strict admissions standards and requirements. They had and still have one of the best Horticulture departments in the country. I know these facts as my fathers uncle was the chair of the Horticulture department and was a professor emeritus until he died.
Quote from: smedindy on March 01, 2006, 07:55:27 PM
Yes, but at least your dog will have a degree!
Yes, a pe-degree. ::) ;D
It looks like you just got hit with west coast chapter of the NRO.
Really cool to see four d3 guys on the first team, and props to Keelan for getting the top nod, especially since Dusty Jura is a really, really, really good ballplayer.
We always say, I'm sure there are some fine academic institutions in other divisions, and of course there are some decent ones, but d3 does have basically the premier academic schools in the country and quite a monopoly on them. Outside the Ivy and maybe some of the grad schools in the D1 power conferences, the best academics are in d3.
And thanks for finally answering my questions, guys. It's good to see the list, especially when cosida still hasn't posted it on their website.
To introduce a 'serious' question: I notice that all but 6 of the 25 d3hoops AAs are seniors, which leaves next year WIDE open. Anyone want to hazard some VERY early nominations?
I'd say, barring disastrous years, that Ton Ton Balenga (G, Va Wes) and Zach Freeman (C, Ill Wes) are virtual locks to make some level of AA team.
Other veritable locks among underclassmen? (One I forgot would be Caleb Veenstra at Calvin - hope I remembered all that correctly.) [I don't know how to leave a post to check info without losing the post - help, anyone?]
The CCIW probably has two legitmate 2006-07 preseason All-American candidates, both big guys - 6-6 Anthony Simmons of North Central (18.5 ppg, 6.6 rpg, .559 FG) and 6-7 Zach Freeman of Illinois Wesleyan (16.2 ppg, 7.6 rpg, .599 FG). Freeman had a tremendous finish to the season. As I posted on CCIW Chat...
Zach really turned the corner late this season. All of that scary athletic ability and talent finally came together in IWU's final 8 games...
vs Augustana: 19 pts, 4 reb (8-10 FG)
vs North Central: 17 pts, 6 reb (7-12 FG)
vs Carroll: 29 pts, 10 reb (13-19 FG)
vs UW-Whitewater: 11 pts, 7 reb (3-5 FG)
vs Lawrence: 21 pts, 12 reb (7-9)
vs Puget Sound: 19 pts, 10 reb (8-13)
vs Virginia Wesleyan: 27 pts, 7 reb (13-16 FG)
vs Amherst: 19 pts, 7 reb (7-9 FG)
An average of 20.3 pts, 8.4 reb, and FG % of .710 (66-93)...and all 8 games were on the road, in very tough environments.
IWU will have one of the best big guys, and one of the best overall players, in Division III next year. Zach Freeman will be one heck of a building block for the 2006-07 Titans.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 19, 2006, 08:55:55 PM[I don't know how to leave a post to check info without losing the post - help, anyone?]
Open a new window.
And I think you mean Caleb
Veldhouse.
Q,
I was all set to tell you that I was only soliciting nominations for those NOT listed (figuring that the 6 who are, are already veritable locks), when I checked again and saw that Simmons was nowhere on the list! :o
Certainly add him to the list for next year.
This gets back to a debate that I (at least) find quite interesting - assessing the merits of a 'solo' star vs. a 'star among stars'. The 'solo' star has the statistical advantage of being the go-to guy, but the downside of being constantly double-teamed. The 'star among stars' has to 'share the wealth', but has much better teammates to get him the ball. (Other points on each side have been raised as well, but these were the main issues.)
This year, Simmons was (mostly) a solo star, while Freeman clearly was a star among stars. Next year, the pendulum should swing quite significantly the other way. Barring some sudden emergence, Zach should be THE go-to guy.
Any speculation national top centers (or even CCIW top centers!)?
Quote from: David Collinge on March 19, 2006, 09:49:25 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 19, 2006, 08:55:55 PM[I don't know how to leave a post to check info without losing the post - help, anyone?]
Open a new window.
And I think you mean Caleb Veldhouse.
Thanks, David.
Yes, I meant Veldhouse. But how many Veenstras have there been in the MIAA - I'm sure you can sympathize with my error! (Except now I can't recall if they have been Calvin or Hope? :P)
He hasn't done enough to land a Pre Season All American spot yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Tyreek Byard at Lincoln blossom into a star by the end of the year.
Nick Shattuck (Ursinus) and Dont'a Sheldon (CNU) could do the same.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 19, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
The CCIW probably has two legitmate 2006-07 preseason All-American candidates, both big guys - 6-6 Anthony Simmons of North Central (18.5 ppg, 6.6 rpg, .559 FG) and 6-7 Zach Freeman of Illinois Wesleyan (16.2 ppg, 7.6 rpg, .599 FG).
It'll be
three legitimate 2006-07 preseason All-American candidates if God tells Wheaton shooting guard Kent Raymond (15.9 ppg, 46.7% trey percentage as a freshman in 2004-05) that it's time for him to pick up a basketball again.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 19, 2006, 09:50:06 PMThis gets back to a debate that I (at least) find quite interesting - assessing the merits of a 'solo' star vs. a 'star among stars'. The 'solo' star has the statistical advantage of being the go-to guy, but the downside of being constantly double-teamed. The 'star among stars' has to 'share the wealth', but has much better teammates to get him the ball. (Other points on each side have been raised as well, but these were the main issues.)
This year, Simmons was (mostly) a solo star, while Freeman clearly was a star among stars.
Not true, Chuck. Check out North Central's scoring statistics:
Anthony Simmons: 18.5 ppg from 331 FGAs, 151 FTAs
Dan Walton: 16.7 ppg from 328 FGAs, 45 FTAs
Ray Vicario: 11.6 ppg from 248 FGAs, 53 FTAs
Adam Krumtinger: 10.3 ppg from 236 FGAs, 57 FTAs
The fifth and sixth members of the Cardinals' regular rotation, Adam Teising and Chris Drennan, took their fair share of shots as well. Simmons took slightly more than 20% of his team's total field goal attempts -- hardly the sign of a "solo star." (He did shoot a higher percentage of his team's total free throws, slightly less than 31%, but that's not unusual for a dominant big man -- Freeman attempted over 29% of Wesleyan's FTs.)
The CCIW braintrust duly noted the contributions of Simmons' teammates by making Walton an All-CCIW second-teamer and Teising an All-CCIW third-teamer.
When Simmons was double-teamed, his teammates made the opposition pay for it. He was most definitely not a "solo star."
gordonmann:
I agree that Tyreek Byard, has the potential to be Lincoln's third straight First Team AA folowing in the footsteps of Jarrett Kearse, and Kyle Myrick.
Simmons was a "solo star" Chuck? Glad Greg got to this one before me. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that.
I suspect John Grotberg might slip onto the list somewhere. Sure, he plays for Grinnell, but you guys need to see him play. He's really, really good.
Mazeiri out at Redlands is in the same boat; although I haven't seen him in person.
I think Andrew Olson, from Amherst as well could garner votes, especially after his performance under pressure in the tournament. Kroeger from Lawrence could be in this category as well. Everyone I talked to was very impressed with his abilities.
Ray Bryant at Utica impressed everybody who saw him in the tournament. He's very good.
Sam Wylie will be the leader for Lincoln next year and looks to get a lot of Myrick's shots.
Tyler Winford could get some looks out of Mississippi College; I hear good things about him.
Greg Badenhop and Ohio Northern should be back in contention next year again.
Carroll College returns a couple of good juniors, Nate Drury especially.
Others for consideration:
Zak Ray or Rob Stockwell from Bates could be in contention as they have the strongest core returning in the NESCAC. Steve DeLuca from Brandeis is ready for a breakout as well; although probably not preseason. Tony Barros (at UMass-Boston) and Cohen from Colby could also emerge in the NE. Coast Guard has a trio of fantastic sophomores as well. The kid, Hoyt, from Mt St Mary's is a scoring machine as is Johnson, from Wesley. There's a kid at Macalester who was pretty good this year, too.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 20, 2006, 10:00:36 AM
Sam Wylie will be the leader for Lincoln next year and looks to get a lot of Myrick's shots.
I'm anxious to see about this one. Myrick garnered so much attention, that had to help Wylie. Plus, Myrick was the one delivering him the ball for his shots too. Sometimes it is different being "the man" than "the beneficiary".
Wooster's Tom Port, on the 4th team this year, is listed as a senior, but he has a year of eligibility remaining (he attended Miami U. [OH] as a freshman and did not play hoops, instead trying out for the football team as a punter.) He has decided to return for his final "super-season" year next year. So you can add him to the list of "underclassmen."
Another NCAC senior who intends to return to exhaust his eligibility is Wittenberg's 6'8" forward Dane Borchers, fresh off his all-tournament performance in the Final Four. Borchers had back problems that caused him to miss a year earlier in his career. He figures to be the focal point of Witt's offense next season, and should be a strong contender for All-America honors.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 20, 2006, 11:53:29 AM
Another NCAC senior who intends to return to exhaust his eligibility is Wittenberg's 6'8" forward Dane Borchers, fresh off his all-tournament performance in the Final Four. Borchers had back problems that caused him to miss a year earlier in his career. He figures to be the focal point of Witt's offense next season, and should be a strong contender for All-America honors.
Yikes! I guess that changes things a little.
Greg (and Q),
I stand corrected! Seemed like all the Chat was about Simmons - I failed to check the stats. :-[
Isn't Tom Port 6-7? Isn't that kind of tall for a punter :o ;)
Farmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
Well since we're throwing out names for AA.........Veldhouse at Calvin will have a shot if he's the MAN which he may be next year. He has the ability to get 20 every night. I think the question at Calvin is what kind of talent will he be surrounded by.......no Draayer or Trewhella to draw some defensive attention. But I do think he'll have a great year.
Hope's Steve Cramer has the talent but I don't think he'll get the numbers because of Hope's system. Maybe an All-Region honor for him.
Zak Silas at Albion is another guy I'll put in the category of all-region potentiial. The question at Albion is if an injured player comes back healthy and another kid who didn't play this year returns. If so Zak will have some good help around him.
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
Quote from: knightstalker on March 20, 2006, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
I'd hate to run into the Hunter grad who had a double major in marksmanship and drive-by.
On a more serious note, Long Island used to be nothing but Seaside resorts and potatoe farms. I actually believe that is where Farmingdale got its name.
OK, I've held off long enough, but since 'Stalker is keeping the "Mango Salsa" picture up for a while, does anyone else think the "main" caveman in the commercial looks exactly like Val Kilmer?
Now that you mention it .........yes. :D
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:51:47 PM
Now that you mention it .........yes. :D
I've been obsessed with that since it came out. I got good at spotting Val in make-up while watching "The Saint." It totally seems like something he, with the reputation for extreme wackiness, would do.
By the way, Sac, congratluations on your runner up finish in the women's pick'em. It's sad to see someone lose on a tiebreaker, but its also nice to see a Hall of Famer in contention rather than one of the anonymous sycophants who show up in March.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 05:26:02 AM
Quote from: Titan Q on March 19, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
The CCIW probably has two legitmate 2006-07 preseason All-American candidates, both big guys - 6-6 Anthony Simmons of North Central (18.5 ppg, 6.6 rpg, .559 FG) and 6-7 Zach Freeman of Illinois Wesleyan (16.2 ppg, 7.6 rpg, .599 FG).
It'll be three legitimate 2006-07 preseason All-American candidates if God tells Wheaton shooting guard Kent Raymond (15.9 ppg, 46.7% trey percentage as a freshman in 2004-05) that it's time for him to pick up a basketball again.
Greg, weren't you one of the people who said that making jokes about that wasn't appropriate? ???
I don't know if Kent really had a special revelation from God or not. But it certainly tends to be the case that most people think the secret whisperings of God into the hearts of his people come off as crazy to those who are outside of the situation. While I can't imagine people being extremely happy about his departure, except for opposing teams obviously, I'm skeptical that Kent cares a great deal about what people think on the issue.
From everything I have heard, I've gotta believe that it's extremely unlikely that Raymond will be back.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 05:26:02 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 19, 2006, 09:50:06 PMThis gets back to a debate that I (at least) find quite interesting - assessing the merits of a 'solo' star vs. a 'star among stars'. The 'solo' star has the statistical advantage of being the go-to guy, but the downside of being constantly double-teamed. The 'star among stars' has to 'share the wealth', but has much better teammates to get him the ball. (Other points on each side have been raised as well, but these were the main issues.)
This year, Simmons was (mostly) a solo star, while Freeman clearly was a star among stars.
Not true, Chuck. Check out North Central's scoring statistics:
Anthony Simmons: 18.5 ppg from 331 FGAs, 151 FTAs
Dan Walton: 16.7 ppg from 328 FGAs, 45 FTAs
Ray Vicario: 11.6 ppg from 248 FGAs, 53 FTAs
Adam Krumtinger: 10.3 ppg from 236 FGAs, 57 FTAs
The fifth and sixth members of the Cardinals' regular rotation, Adam Teising and Chris Drennan, took their fair share of shots as well. Simmons took slightly more than 20% of his team's total field goal attempts -- hardly the sign of a "solo star." (He did shoot a higher percentage of his team's total free throws, slightly less than 31%, but that's not unusual for a dominant big man -- Freeman attempted over 29% of Wesleyan's FTs.)
The CCIW braintrust duly noted the contributions of Simmons' teammates by making Walton an All-CCIW second-teamer and Teising an All-CCIW third-teamer.
When Simmons was double-teamed, his teammates made the opposition pay for it. He was most definitely not a "solo star."
Though I obviously didn't see him this year, I've always been a huge fan of Walton. I'd argue that he was NCC's MVP for the conference tourney, and a key reason NCC was in the playoffs. I'm surprised that anyone who followed those games would neglect to notice how important Walton was in them, and for NCC in general. In the playoff games (conference and NCAA) Walton outscored Simmons 2 of 3 times, with great all around stats and several hugely clutch plays.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 20, 2006, 05:16:46 PMGreg, weren't you one of the people who said that making jokes about that wasn't appropriate? ???
I wasn't joking. Seriously. I was making the logical deduction that a motivational catalyst of such gravity could only be reversed by one of equal gravity. In other words, I don't think that Kent Raymond is going to pick up a basketball again just because he feels the urge or because his teammates or the coaches (or anyone else, for that matter) begs him to do so. I think it's safe to say that he'll only do it if he feels led by God to start playing again.
Wheaton assistant coach Paul Ferguson has an excellent analogy for the Raymond situation. He compared it to God telling Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, the implication being that you have to have the highest of motivations coming from the ultimate unimpeachable source in order to be willing to give up something that's so dear to you. Consequently, the only thing that could've reversed Abraham's subsequent intention to carry out the command was God staying his hand.
If I was someone who was inclined to make sport of Raymond's convictions, believe me, I could've done much better in terms of constructing a punchline.
Thanks Greg, that fuller explanation sounds much more like you than the offhanded comment did... then again, I guess that has a lot to do with the fact that terse isn't really one of those adjectives that are generally used to describe you! :)
Q,
I think you're totally on track with Freeman as a pre-season All-American. He'd get my vote. I only saw him one game (Sweet 16 vs. Carroll) but his relentlessness around the hoop and his explosiveness make him very hard to guard. I was quite impressed by him in the game I saw, and the numbers he put up through the last third of the season were tremendous.
It will be interesting to see how he does next year because 1) he will play a much more integral scoring roll on the Titan's lineup (with the Seniors leaving, he will be the "veteran") and 2) there won't* be the outside scoring threats of Amelianovich and Dauksas to keep the defensive double-teams at bay.
*Note, I fully realize that the Titan well is far from dry. I don't know (or actually can't remember) who the guys are that will be filling in the rolls of the Senior guards from this year, but I expect that they will definately benefit from the attentiona that Freeman will get in the post, which in turn will get them more open shots, which in turn will cause the defense to extend, which will allow Freeman some more room to do his work...
etc, etc, but I think that the Titans will be a very solid team next year because of the experiences from the past few seasons and from the leadership shown by this Senior class. Add to this the quality of returning players, like Freeman, and they'll be tough to handle like usual.
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 21, 2006, 12:38:45 AM
Q,
I think you're totally on track with Freeman as a pre-season All-American. He'd get my vote.
Mine too. :)
The only complaint with the AA's this year is Mark Washington did not make the team and I thought he was a deserving candidate. I am sure he was mentioned but with the number of swingmen in D-III it is hard to include all.
I also thought that Latrice McNair would definitely be AA at point guard but she has two more years to make it and she will barring injury.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 20, 2006, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
I'd hate to run into the Hunter grad who had a double major in marksmanship and drive-by.
Hunter is on the Upper East Side..... 68th and Lexington to be precise. I don't think you'll see a drive by in that area
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 21, 2006, 11:50:30 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 20, 2006, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
I'd hate to run into the Hunter grad who had a double major in marksmanship and drive-by.
Hunter is on the Upper East Side..... 68th and Lexington to be precise. I don't think you'll see a drive by in that area
That's why they have to teach it; there's just no natural talent in the area.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2006, 11:51:20 AM
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 21, 2006, 11:50:30 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 20, 2006, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
I'd hate to run into the Hunter grad who had a double major in marksmanship and drive-by.
Hunter is on the Upper East Side..... 68th and Lexington to be precise. I don't think you'll see a drive by in that area
That's why they have to teach it; there's just no natural talent in the area.
Good point!
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 21, 2006, 11:50:30 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 20, 2006, 04:33:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2006, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: sac on March 20, 2006, 04:21:35 PMFarmingdale......a horticulture school......am I the only one that caught this. :D
I understand that they have a huge rivalry with their D3 neighbor Hunter College, a school that features a marksmanship major and has a very solid biathlon team. ;)
Seeing as Hunter is in the middle of Manhattan they also offer a drive by major.
I'd hate to run into the Hunter grad who had a double major in marksmanship and drive-by.
Hunter is on the Upper East Side..... 68th and Lexington to be precise. I don't think you'll see a drive by in that area
But most of the students are commuters and not from the neighborhood. You have to take the education from the school to the streets.
NABC All Americans (http://nabc.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032106aai.html)
I'm a big time New England guy, all the way, but there is East Coast Bias dripping off this list. Not that any of these players is not good or really talented, but there are some omissions that could be considered severe (like the best four year player I've seen in my time watching d3 hoops).
OK, well I guess they took one guy from each region on each team... so the East Coast Bias is really just the fact that there are more teams on the East Coast than anywhere else. My bad.
But the farthest west they got was Wisconsin or maybe Minn.
The all-American list is up.
I wonder if anyone is going to go Andy Phillips on us this year?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on November 08, 2006, 03:12:57 PM
The all-American list is up.
I wonder if anyone is going to go Andy Phillips on us this year?
HARSH!!!
I'll be a little defensive here...
Andy as some know, was the go to guy when he dazzled the DIII world and was pick for All American status. Last year, I must agree, Andy disappointed some, as he seldom dominated the way he was expected to. BUT... he also was surrounded by a cast of great ball players that GVW put together between Andy's freshman and Senior years.
Also AND just as important, of the 25 men chosen in the DIII preseason all American team, 13 (including 2 first teamers and 2 second teamers) fell out by the end of the season. Only 3 men were chosen correctly for their given "team".
I think the prognosticators last year looked too highly at AP individually, and based on the preseason top 25 poll, not highly enough at his team! And their 12/25 was just slightly higher than Andy's shooting %.
I mentioned Andy Phillips only because he was picked pre-season first team, not once, but twice and both times failed to make any of the all-american teams at the end of the year.
I think it would be good press to cultivate a jinx wherein one of the preseason players doesn't appear on any team at the end of the season. I was just wondering if the tradition will continue.
Josh Robinson .. remember that name
You might need to tell us a little more. School? Position?
Maybe he's forgotten.
Yeah, but he did remember the name.
Well, since EZ Tru Balla posted with a Susquehanna University address, I took the leap of faith and checked the website of the Crusaders to see if this Josh Robinson character plays for that team.
(And, incidentally, is anyone else amused to see someone from more-rural-than-Green Acres Susquehanna University refer to himself as "EZ Tru Balla"? :D)
Turns out that the Crusaders have a new transfer from Drake named Josh Robinson. He's a 6'3 guard who hails from Mahwah, NJ. He's listed as a junior, but it's going to come as an unpleasant surprise to Susquehanna when they learn that he only has one year left of eligibility. He played for Drake in 2002-03 and 2003-04, so his five-year clock expires after this season.
And it turns out that he is, indeed, a player of some note. He was apparently a big star in high school (1,500 points scored), and was recruited by Memphis, Boston College, Oklahoma State, and Penn besides Drake. He started in 13 games as a freshman for the Bulldogs. As a sophomore he apparently missed a bunch of games, but as of the middle of February of that year he was still Drake's leading scorer at 10.6 ppg. Very few D1 players who transfer into D3 have those kinds of credentials.
I also noticed that Susquehanna lists him as a tri-captain. This is the first time I've ever heard of an incoming transfer being named a captain before he even plays a single minute with his new team.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 14, 2006, 05:08:38 AM
I also noticed that Susquehanna lists him as a tri-captain. This is the first time I've ever heard of an incoming transfer being named a captain before he even plays a single minute with his new team.
I've seen it done plenty, especially after a mass graduation or a major coaching change.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 14, 2006, 05:08:38 AM
Well, since EZ Tru Balla posted with a Susquehanna University address, I took the leap of faith and checked the website of the Crusaders to see if this Josh Robinson character plays for that team.
(And, incidentally, is anyone else amused to see someone from more-rural-than-Green Acres Susquehanna University refer to himself as "EZ Tru Balla"? :D)
Turns out that the Crusaders have a new transfer from Drake named Josh Robinson. He's a 6'3 guard who hails from Mahwah, NJ. He's listed as a junior, but it's going to come as an unpleasant surprise to Susquehanna when they learn that he only has one year left of eligibility. He played for Drake in 2002-03 and 2003-04, so his five-year clock expires after this season.
Are you sure the clock applies post-transer?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 14, 2006, 01:31:29 PMAre you sure the clock applies post-transer?
I've always understood the rule to mean that the clock starts the first term that a student-athlete is enrolled full-time at an institution of higher learning, and that the clock does not stop unless there is a hardship waiver that's approved by the NCAA. In fact, it's
transfers to whom I've seen this rule applied more often than not. The classic example that comes to my mind is Sneed Deaderick of North Park three years ago. He couldn't get a retroactive medical waiver for one of his two seasons at DePaul (where he was a walk-on basketball player; he sat out one year in between DePaul and NPU), so his clock ran out five years after he started there and prevented him from playing a third season for the Vikings.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 15, 2006, 03:08:41 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 14, 2006, 01:31:29 PMAre you sure the clock applies post-transer?
I've always understood the rule to mean that the clock starts the first term that a student-athlete is enrolled full-time at an institution of higher learning, and that the clock does not stop unless there is a hardship waiver that's approved by the NCAA. In fact, it's transfers to whom I've seen this rule applied more often than not. The classic example that comes to my mind is Sneed Deaderick of North Park three years ago. He couldn't get a retroactive medical waiver for one of his two seasons at DePaul (where he was a walk-on basketball player; he sat out one year in between DePaul and NPU), so his clock ran out five years after he started there and prevented him from playing a third season for the Vikings.
Mr. Sager, once again you are correct!
A 52-point game for Susquehanna's Josh Robinson against King's tells me that we were not sold a bill of goods about him.
Wow. That might be the first time I've witnessed cryptic homerism that ended up panning out in the end. Granted we're nowhere near the end, but 52 points in one game is good enough for me to know at least the guy has some idea about something.
Keep an eye on UT-Dallas' Sr. Shooting Guard, Martin Salinas. Today, UTD beat Concordia-Austin 118-112 in 2OT.
Salinas' line was FG 15-25, 3FG 3-8, FT 5-6 for 38 points.
Salinas is averaging 26.6 ppg. Mississippi College and Trinity fans will remember (http://cometsports.utdallas.edu/ARCHIVES/MBB200405/STATS0405.HTM) Salinas from the 2005 ASC Tourney (when Salinas scored 26 with 5 rebounds at Miss College to earn the Pool A) and the first round game at Trinity when Trinity held off the Comets who were led by Salinas' 19 points and 7 rebounds in the 72-66 win (http://cometsports.utdallas.edu/ARCHIVES/MBB200405/utd-tu.htm).
Unfortunately, UT-D had no scheduled games during the Tour de Tejas, so Pat Coleman couldn't see him first-hand! :-\
Can a Player Like Mike Hoyt from mt st marys who was looked at as pre season all american still make all american at the end of the year if the team doesnt do well? what are the chances
If he plays well this year, he can make it on a team that doesn't do well.
It is even harder to make it on the All american team if you play in a weak conference.
Hey, I'm not sure I'm ready to debate first team versus second team yet, but I'm wondering if there are players we can begin to spotlight for National Player of the Year?
It seem like Mike Hoyt is doing his absolute best to solidify his reputation, despite playing for a small school in a weaker conference. He's been absolutely outstanding this year, scoring over 40 points seven times already and leading the nation in scoring.
He literally put the team on his back, scoring 45% of the team's points. He's even hit more threes than either of the "system stars" at Grinnell and Redlands.
I wasn't sold on him to start the year, but he sure seems to be a top-notch guard.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 14, 2007, 12:21:50 PM
Hey, I'm not sure I'm ready to debate first team versus second team yet, but I'm wondering if there are players we can begin to spotlight for National Player of the Year?
It seem like Mike Hoyt is doing his absolute best to solidify his reputation, despite playing for a small school in a weaker conference. He's been absolutely outstanding this year, scoring over 40 points seven times already and leading the nation in scoring.
He literally put the team on his back, scoring 45% of the team's points. He's even hit more threes than either of the "system stars" at Grinnell and Redlands.
I wasn't sold on him to start the year, but he sure seems to be a top-notch guard.
When NYU scrimmaged Mt.St Marys this year he was absolutely locked down. The guards for NYU played him tight so he couldnt get a shot off and when he drove he was in the trees with Jason Boone and Danny Falcon sending every shot he took. He must have taken over %60 of MSM's shots that scrimmage. He also had about 13 fouls throughout the scrimmage. He is talented but he can be stopped.
Quote from: dblock on February 14, 2007, 01:29:01 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 14, 2007, 12:21:50 PM
Hey, I'm not sure I'm ready to debate first team versus second team yet, but I'm wondering if there are players we can begin to spotlight for National Player of the Year?
It seem like Mike Hoyt is doing his absolute best to solidify his reputation, despite playing for a small school in a weaker conference. He's been absolutely outstanding this year, scoring over 40 points seven times already and leading the nation in scoring.
He literally put the team on his back, scoring 45% of the team's points. He's even hit more threes than either of the "system stars" at Grinnell and Redlands.
I wasn't sold on him to start the year, but he sure seems to be a top-notch guard.
When NYU scrimmaged Mt.St Marys this year he was absolutely locked down. The guards for NYU played him tight so he couldnt get a shot off and when he drove he was in the trees with Jason Boone and Danny Falcon sending every shot he took. He must have taken over %60 of MSM's shots that scrimmage. He also had about 13 fouls throughout the scrimmage. He is talented but he can be stopped.
Doesn't make a lick of a difference, since: a) All-American awards aren't handed out on the basis of scrimmage performances; and b) nobody cares about scrimmages once the season starts.
I posted it over on the NEWMAC board, but this is where I did my damage, so I figure I have to come back here to take my medicine. Congrats to Ryan Cain on the Jostens; that's a big deal and well deserved.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 06, 2007, 12:04:40 PM
Alright Pat, I might be stubborn, but I also like to think I have integrity.
I'm not sure Cain is a first teammer, but he's certainly better than I thought he was and deserves to be on one of the All-American teams this spring. That was a much, much better call than I gave you credit for.
Terrence Shawell of Alvernia have a shot at being preseason All American.
Quote from: MR. PAC on March 06, 2007, 03:50:32 PM
Terrence Shawell of Alvernia have a shot at being preseason All American.
I think we're still talking about post-season for this year.
I have to make my pitch for Amir Mazarei (University of Redlands)
Second in the nation in scoring
First in the nation in 3's made per game
Third in the nation in steals per game
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on March 06, 2007, 04:17:38 PM
I have to make my pitch for Amir Mazarei (University of Redlands)
Second in the nation in scoring
First in the nation in 3's made per game
Third in the nation in steals per game
Well, now that you posted the stats in bold red, white and blue.... totally. :D ;)
I'd like to see Amir on one of the AA teams too Jordis. He was really fun to watch, and seems like your ideal smart, hardworking, nice DIII kid. People have a tendancy to knock system players, but Amir got his stats in just ~26mpg... that's not a small deal, and it probably means that at a normal pace of basketball on a normal team, he'd probably be putting up similar numbers.
But, with that said... I don't want to see him be an AA as much as Kent Raymond! Okay, almost as much...ish, but he's tied with Bryan Schnetter in my head, sorry. :)
And I might as well make a full fledged pitch for Bryan Schnettler while I'm at it... see this info from the St. Thomas website (http://www.stthomas.edu/tommies/shared/shownews.cfm?ArticleID=4745) for more details.
There seem to be a lot of crazy good guards this year. That's sort of unfortunate, cause they can't all be recognized. Hopefully our favorites are the ones that win out! :D
At some point after the sectionals this weekend, I'm planning on summarizing who I think the best players I saw this season were just for the heck of it... it would be cool if people who have seen a number of good candidates did the same. :)
Quote from: diehardfan on March 06, 2007, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: Jordis Rocks on March 06, 2007, 04:17:38 PM
I have to make my pitch for Amir Mazarei (University of Redlands)
Second in the nation in scoring
First in the nation in 3's made per game
Third in the nation in steals per game
Well, now that you posted the stats in bold red, white and blue.... totally. :D ;)
I'd like to see Amir on one of the AA teams too Jordis. He was really fun to watch, and seems like your ideal smart, hardworking, nice DIII kid. People have a tendancy to knock system players, but Amir got his stats in just ~26mpg... that's not a small deal, and it probably means that at a normal pace of basketball on a normal team, he'd probably be putting up similar numbers.
Actually, Amir only averaged about 21 minutes per game...hopefully that makes it even more impressive than the bold red, white and blue ;)
Taken from the NJCU website.
I believe Dana John should get some consideration for All American, below are his stats for the year, and he is only a sophmore.
SUMMARY GP-GS Min FG% 3PT% FT% R/G A/G STL BLK PTS/G
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana John........... 28-28 31.5 .456 .426 .778 5.6 1.1 49 23 18.4
When do the d3hoops All-Region and All-America come out?
It's announced on the pregame show for the championship game. If you don't catch it then, you'll have to wait a while after the game... but it is that day. :)
All Region is generally announced during the week. All Americans are during halftime of the championship tilt, as DHF reports.
Actually we do the men's in the pregame. If you guys don't do the women's until halftime we'll have to have a talk. :)
Hey, I said they were in the pregame show.... Gordon just wasn't paying attention.
So now that we know who the nominees are for the All-American teams, let's get to some prognosticating.
Mike Hoyt, Kent Raymond, Andrew Olson and Brian Schnettler seem like the premier guard choices.
Ben Strong, Jason Boone, Isaac Rosefelt, and Larry Welton seem like good choices for big guys.
There are so many strong candidates; it will be hard to pick the top spots.
(And yes, I know I left out very good players from the Great Lakes region on my list. Most everyone from their first team and the names I left off from the MW first team are contenders.)
Zach Freeman is a strong 1st Team candidate among big guys as well...
21.6 ppg
9.1 rpg
.614 FG
.793 FT
Here are some Freeman highlights from the Final Four last year and a game this year...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EANANcrj8
Zach is the best 4/5 player I've seen at IWU in the 18 years I've been around the program, and I've seen some great ones.
Yeah, I agree that Freeman is a top contender, but a lot will depend on who exactly votes on the All-America team. He didn't get the award for his conference or his region (I know the competition was pretty stiff), but with players like Rosefelt and Strong vying for the same spot, it may be hard for him to get to the first team. I do fully expect him to be the Center on one of the top three teams.
Troy Ruths has also attracted some attention in the middle, and has taken his team to the Final Four - I'm hoping he at least gets some mention...
Ruths is listed as a forward on the all-region team. I'm not sure if d3hoops sticks to those, but they do seem to pick 2 guards, 2 forwards and one center, making the center the harder one to get.
The players I see as possibilities:
Guards: Kent Raymond, Brian Schnettler, James Cooper, Mike Hoyt, Andrew Olson, Ryan Cain
Forwards: Troy Ruths, Larry Welton, Tori Davis, Tom Port, Brandon Adair, Chad McGowen, Ray Bryant
Centers: Zazh Freeman, Isaac Rosefelt, Ben Strong, Jason Boone
Those are the positions listed from the All-Region teams. I'm fairly confident the first team will be among those listed above.
If that's so Ruths is getting a big advantage - he plays strictly in the middle on the offense
Maybe this is a question for Pat, but others can chime in...
Without actually looking back at other AAs, is there a set formula in terms of picking 2 guards, 2 fowards and a center or do they simply pick the best 5 players. I think I remember a conversation like this at least a year a go, but since Point isn't in the Final Four, I've become a little lazy! lol. ;D
OS,
That's how it's been. I assume that's how they pick'em. It really is the fair way to make up an All-American Team.
So the real official awards are about to be announced, but am curious what all the posters think about who should be AA of all the players they've actually seen... I'll post mine when I get to an actual computer, but it would be cool if it went something like this:
1) List all the teams you've seen this year (so we know who you had to pick from)
2) List all best players you've seen and think are AA caliber in order of how good you think they are.
3) Since the official teams do it this way divide the lists by front and back court players.
Could be interesting if we get a substantial number to contribute. :)
Okay, I'll bite.
Here's who I have seen (D3 men's varsity only ;)):
Allegheny
Amherst
Brockport St.
Cabrini
Calvin
Capital
Centre
Denison
Emory & Henry
Earlham
Hiram
John Carroll
Kenyon
Lake Erie
Mt. Union
Muskingum
Oberlin
Ohio Northern
Ohio Wesleyan
Otterbein
Transylvania
UW-La Crosse
Virginia Wesleyan
Wabash
Wash U.
Wittenberg
Wooster
This would be my first team:
G Andrew Olson, Amherst
G James Cooper, Wooster
F Joe Werner, UW-La Crosse
F Tom Port, Wooster
F Brandon Adair, Virginia Wesleyan
second team:
G Sean Wallis, Wash U.
F Dane Borchers, Wittenberg
F Brandon Mimes, John Carroll
F Dan Hodgkinson, Denison
C Tyler Ousley, Otterbein
I couldn't decide between Mimes and Hodgkinson, so I bumped a guard (Brockport's Sherod Harris) and went with a big lineup. Mimes can dribble if he has too. ;D
Well the official D3hoops AA teams are out
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 18, 2007, 07:26:19 AM
Well the official D3hoops AA teams are out
http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/07/menallam07.htm
Thanks for that link. The ODAC is well represented!
That first team is would be a handful to play against, for sure.
Does anyone know about the NCAA AA team?
There is no NCAA All-American team.
Thanks for your work, Pat.
You da people!
Illinois Wesleyan
Clarke (IA)
Whitewater
Martin Luther
Stevens Point
Carroll
Lawrence
Marian
Ripon
Oshkosh
River Falls
Platteville
Superior
La Crosse
Grinnell
Stout
Lakeland
St. Norbert
Carthage
Wisconsin Lutheran
Aurora
Eau Claire
Hope
Calvin
Washington U.
1st Team
G-Steve Cramer (pretty unstoppable in 3 appearances)
G-Sean Wallis (Won MVP of Stevens Point sectional)
F-Joe Werner (WIAC player of the year)
F-Zach Freeman (could've been CCIW player of the year ::), stud in the two games I saw)
C-Kerry Gibson (Block party)
2nd Team
G-Nate Drury (MWC player of the year)
G-Pete Rortvedt (I consider him a shooting guard, Bryan Beamish is the SF on SP)
F-Jon Krull (tough for his size)
F-Troy Ruths (tore Point apart, pedestrian against Hope, but they doubled/tripled him)
C-Jacob Nonemacher (Block party part 2)
I didn't include D2 Point opponent Northern Michigan.
OS, were those awards below your votes or the real ones, because wasn't Kent Raymond, not Zach Freeman, the CCIW POY?
Oh yeah, he was, I was thinking something else, or just not thinking...
edited ;D
Or maybe Raymond is the Most Outstanding Player and Freeman the Player of the year...lol. I honestly have no explanation.
Amherst
Elmhurst
Caltech
Carroll
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
Grinnell
Hope
Kalamazoo
Nazareth
Occidental
Pomona-Pitzer
Redlands
St. Thomas
Stevens Point
Va Wes
Wash U
Wheaton
Whittier
UW-Whitewater
Wooster
I saw 10 of the actual AAs this season, and 14 of the actual AA's at some point during their careers. Not too shabby. Will post my personal picks in a bit.
I would post my list of All-Americans, but that's already been done.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 19, 2007, 09:31:38 PM
I would post my list of All-Americans, but that's already been done.
Did you really get to see all of those guys in person this year? I think that was the start of this course of thought, picking the best five players you saw in person.
We're not trying to hone in on your turf or anything. I can't imagine any of us have any complaints about the way the official d3hoops.com All-American teams went down.
No, I didn't see all of them, but I already listed the teams I saw and I already listed the All-Americans.
Being seen by me isn't a prerequisite or even much of a factor. I saw two members of our first team play, three on our second team, two on our third team, two on the fourth team and two on the honorable mention.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 20, 2007, 12:08:50 PM
I saw two members of our first team play, three on our second team, two on our third team, two on the fourth team and two on the honorable mention.
That's quite a good year.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 20, 2007, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 20, 2007, 12:08:50 PM
I saw two members of our first team play, three on our second team, two on our third team, two on the fourth team and two on the honorable mention.
That's quite a good year.
I saw 10 of them just this year... ;D
I was only counting this year. If we counted guys on this list I saw in previous years it would add five to the list.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2007, 12:35:39 AM
I was only counting this year. If we counted guys on this list I saw in previous years it would add five to the list.
I would add four.
You win by two :)
Count up Hall of Famers next. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2007, 12:37:57 AM
Count up Hall of Famers next. :)
I was going to make a joke about how it was just like the HOFers... just like you picking HOFers I haven't met so you'd be beating me in that.You made someone an AA instead of Kent Raymond just so you'd still be beating me, didn't you? :P :)
Don't worry, by the time I hit 10 years following DIII sports I will totally be beating your current mark on teams and conferences seen. :P
No doubt. But that's because I occasionally see women's basketball games as well. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2007, 12:46:25 AM
No doubt. But that's because I occasionally see women's basketball games as well. :)
Who cares about Women? ??? ::) Hah! Just kidding!!! :-X
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2007, 12:46:25 AM
No doubt. But that's because I occasionally see women's basketball games as well. :)
Pat, did you see more women's All-Americans this year? Or more until the Final Four?
You saw the four from the ASC.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 21, 2007, 12:49:03 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2007, 12:46:25 AM
No doubt. But that's because I occasionally see women's basketball games as well.
Who cares about Women? Hah! Just kidding!!!
What's funnier, that April said this or the fact that she felt she had to immediately explain it was a joke?
No, actually those four and McEntee were the only women's All-Americans I saw this season.
Exhibit A (http://nabc.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030907aac.html) for why there needs to be a standard format for positions on All-American teams.
The NABC D1 first team has no one over 6-9 and the second team has no one under 6-7.
Check it out. (http://nabc.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030907aac.html)
April,
So where's your first team and second team AAs of the players you've seen?
Quote from: Old School on March 22, 2007, 04:06:02 PM
April,
So where's your first team and second team AAs of the players you've seen?
Patience young padawan.
In the meanwhile, enjoy these music videos of the UST AA's courtesy of the MIAC board. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPtWKwiDVq0&NR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5JVWxdn4Sk&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SmqXY78IDM&mode=related&search=
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 22, 2007, 11:13:26 AM
Exhibit A (http://nabc.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030907aac.html) for why there needs to be a standard format for positions on All-American teams.
The NABC D1 first team has no one over 6-9 and the second team has no one under 6-7.
Check it out. (http://nabc.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030907aac.html)
They do have a guy on there, Tyler Hansbrough, who can make a credible claim to playing center (or at least WWF) at 6'9".
is there a NABC d3 all american team...is so, where can i find it.
Quote from: fpc85 on March 23, 2007, 01:59:27 PM
is there a NABC d3 all american team...is so, where can i find it.
I don't think they've announced it yet. They've only announced player(s) of the year as far as I can tell.
OS.... I am in TJ on my way to Ensenada. MX... i just dont think that AA list is going to happen... I'll post it when I get back and even less people are paying attention... LOL :D
Sorry :(
When do preseason all-americans come out?
Quote from: MR. PAC on August 09, 2007, 11:32:08 PM
When do preseason all-americans come out?
With no letters of intent, one can't even know who is returning until camps open! I'd guess late October at the earliest.
Thank you, Mr. Ypsi.
Should be fairly predictable this year ... the co-players of the year (C Ben Strong and PG Andrew Olson) both return and are locks, and Kent Raymond and James Cooper will fight it out for the other guard spot. Forward is the only question mark ...
It seems to me that Larry Welton is a lock for a spot at Forward. Cooper, Olson, Welton, and Strong were the only juniors among the top four teams at the end of the year, and all consensus great players. None of them really came out of nowhere. I expect Troy Ruths would be the other forward as he's on a fantastic team with a lot of press. That would probably be my top team anyway.
Looking back, here's the NABC 2007 Division III (D3) All American Team
First Team
Chad McGowan York (PA)
Ray Bryant Utica College
Andrew Olson Amherst
Isaac Rosefelt St. Thomas
Kent Raymond Wheaton
Thomas Baker Rowan
Tom Port Wooster
Ben Strong Guilford College
Second Team
Jared Yoder Messiah
Tsankani Ngobeni Hamilton
Eric Downie Salem State
Joe Werner UW LaCrosse
Larry Welton Aurora
Mike Hoyt Mt. St. Mary
Tori Davis Baldwin Wallace
D.J. Jones Mississippi College
Third Team
Nick Shattuck Ursinus
Anthony Williams Plattsburgh
Ryan Cain WPI
Kyle White Loras College
Troy Ruths Washington University
Luis Martinez William Paterson
Stephen Cramer Hope College
Bobby Golden Maryville College
The somewhat similar D3hoops.com 2007 All American team is available at this link:
http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/07/menallam07.htm
Sporting News/Street & Smith's 2007-08 Division III Preseason All-American Team:
1st Team
James Cooper, Wooster
Andrew Olson, Amherst
Troy Ruths, Wash U
Ben Strong, Guilford
Larry Welton, Aurora
2nd Team
Sherod Harris, Brockport St
Chad McGowan, York (Pa)
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (IL)
Nick Shattuck, Ursinus
Anthony Williams, Plattsburgh St
Honorable Mention:
Ton Ton Balenga, VA Wesleyan
Damien Brown, Averett
Matt Brynes, Rowan
Steve DeLuca, Brandeis
Jason Foster, Puget Sound
Travis Gorham, Plattsburgh St
Nate Hainje, Chicago
Steve Hicklin, UW-Stevens Point
Craig Johnson, Coast Guard
Tyler Kathan, Keene St
Kyle Kuenstling, Coe
Jeremiah Lawrence, Shenandoah
Russell Martin, Trinity (Ct)
Onyie Onunaku, Shenandoah
Jonathan Onyiriuka, Rochester
Anthony Pettaway, Defiance
Pete Rortvedt, UW-Stevens Point
Chris Rose, Williams
Chris Shalvoy, Williams
Jeff Skemp, UW-Platteville
Nate Stahl, Capital
Ryan Symes, Whitworth
Brandon Todd, Muskingum
Derek Van Solkema, Hope
Caleb Veldhouse, Calvin
Sean Wallis, Wash U
Kyle White, Loras
Brandon Williams, Brockport St
Andrew Zimmer, Wabash
Hard to argue with that first team.
Quote from: sludge on October 06, 2007, 02:30:12 PM
Looking back, here's the NABC 2007 Division III (D3) All American Team
First Team
Chad McGowan York (PA)
Ray Bryant Utica College
Andrew Olson Amherst
Isaac Rosefelt St. Thomas
Kent Raymond Wheaton
Thomas Baker Rowan
Tom Port Wooster
Ben Strong Guilford College
Second Team
Jared Yoder Messiah
Tsankani Ngobeni Hamilton
Eric Downie Salem State
Joe Werner UW LaCrosse
Larry Welton Aurora
Mike Hoyt Mt. St. Mary
Tori Davis Baldwin Wallace
D.J. Jones Mississippi College
Third Team
Nick Shattuck Ursinus
Anthony Williams Plattsburgh
Ryan Cain WPI
Kyle White Loras College
Troy Ruths Washington University
Luis Martinez William Paterson
Stephen Cramer Hope College
Bobby Golden Maryville College
The somewhat similar D3hoops.com 2007 All American team is available at this link:
http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/07/menallam07.htm
Any All-America team without Zach Freeman in the top THIRTY(!) tells me all I need to know about the NABC voters.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for d3hoops.com!
Isn't the NABC just based on the regional voting? Freeman didn't finish in the top 3 for his region, so he doesn't qualify for the top three all-american teams.
I didn't say it made sense, but it seems to be using the same logic as the NCAA, national rankings based on regional criteria.
HF,
Yeah, you're correct. Also, I can't count - if I had noticed they had 8, not 10, per team, I might have remembered their silly regional representation. But that alone (the assumption that all regions are identical in bball talent) disqualifies the NABC AA list from being taken seriously, IMO.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 09, 2007, 09:32:49 PM
But that alone (the assumption that all regions are identical in bball talent) disqualifies the NABC AA list from being taken seriously, IMO.
No argument there, I just wanted to point out that even the NABC wouldn't have been dumb enough to list 24 players on straight merit without putting Freeman in there somewhere.
Was thinking about preseason All-Americans, and as far as a 1st Team, I think I'd go with...
G Andrew Olsen (Amherst)
G James Cooper (Wooster)
G Kent Raymond (Wheaton)
F Troy Ruths (Wash U)
C Ben Strong (Guilford)
Quote from: Titan Q on November 02, 2007, 11:39:02 AM
Was thinking about preseason All-Americans, and as far as a 1st Team, I think I'd go with...
G Andrew Olsen (Amherst)
G James Cooper (Wooster)
G Kent Raymond (Wheaton)
F Troy Ruths (Wash U)
C Ben Strong (Guilford)
Admittedly havent seen a ton of Raymond, but is he slightly overrated? I'd almost take Larry Welton as the 2nd forward in that group..thoughts? I think his numbers slipped last year, but imo he was playing with another all american, in Darrick Leonard
Quote from: keith45 on November 02, 2007, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on November 02, 2007, 11:39:02 AM
Was thinking about preseason All-Americans, and as far as a 1st Team, I think I'd go with...
G Andrew Olsen (Amherst)
G James Cooper (Wooster)
G Kent Raymond (Wheaton)
F Troy Ruths (Wash U)
C Ben Strong (Guilford)
Admittedly havent seen a ton of Raymond, but is he slightly overrated? I'd almost take Larry Welton as the 2nd forward in that group..thoughts? I think his numbers slipped last year, but imo he was playing with another all american, in Darrick Leonard
I don't think Kent Raymond is overrated -- I think there is a very good chance he is the best player in Division III. As a CCIW fan, I have seen several All-Americans play in recent years. Guys like Adam Dauksas (IWU), Rick Harrigan (Augustana), Keelan Amelianovich (IWU), Antoine McDaniel (Carthage), Drew Carstens (Augustana), Chris Martin (Elmhurst), Korey Coon (IWU) and many others. I have also been fortunate to see other superstars across the country like Nick Bennett (UW-Stevens Point), Steve Cramer (Hope), Michael Crotty (Williams), etc. I think Raymond has a chance to be about as good as any Division III perimeter player I have ever seen.
Raymond (a combo guard) and Larry Welton (a 3/4) play totally different positions, but in terms of who I'd put on the 1st Team if between the two, I'd pick Raymond.
Darrick Leonard is talented, but I don't think he's close to being an All-American.
Quote from: Titan Q on November 02, 2007, 03:35:12 PM
Quote from: keith45 on November 02, 2007, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on November 02, 2007, 11:39:02 AM
Was thinking about preseason All-Americans, and as far as a 1st Team, I think I'd go with...
G Andrew Olsen (Amherst)
G James Cooper (Wooster)
G Kent Raymond (Wheaton)
F Troy Ruths (Wash U)
C Ben Strong (Guilford)
Admittedly havent seen a ton of Raymond, but is he slightly overrated? I'd almost take Larry Welton as the 2nd forward in that group..thoughts? I think his numbers slipped last year, but imo he was playing with another all american, in Darrick Leonard
I don't think Kent Raymond is overrated -- I think there is a very good chance he is the best player in Division III. As a CCIW fan, I have seen several All-Americans play in recent years. Guys like Adam Dauksas (IWU), Rick Harrigan (Augustana), Keelan Amelianovich (IWU), Antoine McDaniel (Carthage), Drew Carstens (Augustana), Chris Martin (Elmhurst), Korey Coon (IWU) and many others. I have also been fortunate to see other superstars across the country like Nick Bennett (UW-Stevens Point), Steve Cramer (Hope), Michael Crotty (Williams), etc. I think Raymond has a chance to be about as good as any Division III perimeter player I have ever seen.
Raymond (a combo guard) and Larry Welton (a 3/4) play totally different positions, but in terms of who I'd put on the 1st Team if between the two, I'd pick Raymond.
Darrick Leonard is talented, but I don't think he's close to being an All-American.
Based on the names you threw out there as comparisions, I'll make an attempt to see more of Raymond this year..again, based on limited exposure to him, and seeing that Wheaton went 17-9, 9-5 in conference (albeit one of the top D3 conferences if not THE top D3 conference), averaging 22 and 4 and 3 asst on a team that almost had 6 double digit scorers, nothing jumped out at me to say, 1st team all american..
I may have over spoke concerning Leonard, my point is that he was the best player Welton has played with (imo) and as such, took some scoring and playmaking opportunities away from him.
Thanks for the reply
I saw Larry Welton twice last year, a loss at Wisconsin Lutheran and the loss vs. Calvin in the NCAA tourney and he didn't impress me in either game. It's only two times, and considering Welton was 1st NAC All Conference, 1st team All-Region All-American, and 2nd team (NABC) and 3rd team (d3hoops) All-American, I could have just seen his worst two games! :-[
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on November 02, 2007, 04:09:55 PM
I saw Larry Welton twice last year, a loss at Wisconsin Lutheran and the loss vs. Calvin in the NCAA tourney and he didn't impress me in either game. It's only two times, and considering Welton was 1st NAC All Conference, 1st team All-Region All-American, and 2nd team (NABC) and 3rd team (d3hoops) All-American, I could have just seen his worst two games! :-[
You are bad luck!!! If AU makes the NCAA's again and is lucky enough to host, I'm not getting you tickets and you are banned from the gym!!! lol
Now that we are almost at the mid-point of the regular season, who would be on your All American Team?
I merged.
If Cabrini College's Glenn Washington could strengthen his defense he may have a shot as well.
Anthony Williams of SUNY Plattsburgh.
Travis Gorham of SUNY Plattsburgh. 2nd, 3rd or HM.
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
Yes, in
2005 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/menallam05.htm).
In
2006 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/06/menallam06.htm), Dauskas and Amelianovich from Illinois Wesleyan made it. :)
The common denominator is Final Four appearances by their respective teams.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
Pat
You're right . That is tough to accomplish, but wasn't Anthony Williams D3hoops pre-season all-american 2nd team and Travis Gorham pre-season honorable mention? I seem to remember reading that in a press release back in November. Both these guys have shown up big time every game this year and Williams ability to hit the game changing or game winning shot time and time again is amazing. Usually it's a 3 pointer from NBA distance as he did once more Tuesday night at Middlebury. He's averaging 23.5 pts. a game with his lowest output a 15 pt. effort. Gorham leads the SUNYAC conference in rebounding and is averaging a double double for the season. Neither player has done anything to make those pre-season picks look bad.
We have a preseason honorable mention, but Williams is there as our only Plattsburgh selectee.
There's a lot of questions, apparently, about who we actually selected and we have a link on the front page for All-Americans, but I'll repeat it here.
http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/allamericans.htm
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
For one out of 390 teams per year, it could be possible. But as I said, highly unlikely.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
Yes, in 2005 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/menallam05.htm).
In 2006 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/06/menallam06.htm), Dauskas and Amelianovich from Illinois Wesleyan made it. :)
The common denominator is Final Four appearances by their respective teams.
An wouldn't you know it...Puget Sound had to face both those teams in the national tournament! Point in the sweet 16 and IWU in the elite 8. Why did the committee curse Puget Sound with those match-ups before the final four? They should have meet in the final four :).
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
Yes, in 2005 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/menallam05.htm).
In 2006 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/06/menallam06.htm), Dauskas and Amelianovich from Illinois Wesleyan made it. :)
The common denominator is Final Four appearances by their respective teams.
An wouldn't you know it...Puget Sound had to face both those teams in the national tournament! Point in the sweet 16 and IWU in the elite 8. Why did the committee curse Puget Sound with those match-ups before the final four? They should have meet in the final four :).
I'm sure undefeated and #1-ranked Lawrence (who lost to IWU in the swweet 16 in 06) would share your opinion! ;)
QuoteI'm sure undefeated and #1-ranked Lawrence (who lost to IWU in the swweet 16 in 06) would share your opinion!
No kidding! I was pulling for Larry U. I think Puget Sound would have matched up much better against them.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 07, 2008, 02:26:56 PM
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2008, 02:56:10 AM
Quote from: LogShow on February 07, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 12:30:06 AM
I know he's good but with nearly 2,000 starting men's basketball players and only 25 all-american slots any one school is highly unlikely to get two.
I think that has happened though. Wasn't Bennet and Kaslow from UW-Stevens Point both 1st teamers?
Yes, in 2005 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/menallam05.htm).
In 2006 (http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/06/menallam06.htm), Dauskas and Amelianovich from Illinois Wesleyan made it. :)
The common denominator is Final Four appearances by their respective teams.
An wouldn't you know it...Puget Sound had to face both those teams in the national tournament! Point in the sweet 16 and IWU in the elite 8. Why did the committee curse Puget Sound with those match-ups before the final four? They should have meet in the final four :).
I'm sure undefeated and #1-ranked Lawrence (who lost to IWU in the Sweet 16 in 06) would share your opinion! ;)
The Larrys lost in OT to UWSP at UPS in 2004 in the Elite 8.
Pre D-III Hoops, the undefeated Potsdam team in '85-86 had two NABC first-teamers, Brendan Mitchell (POY in '86-87) and Roosevelt Bullock (MVP of Final Four in '86.) The sixth man on the '85-86 team was Steve Babiarz, who was a two-time first teamer in '87-88 & 88-89.
The 80-81 championship team had 1st teamer Derrick Rowland, (now coaching in the CBA) and 2nd teamer Ed Jachim, who both made it in '79-80 as well, and Leroy Witherspoon who was POY in '82-83 & 83-84. There are two teams with three first-teamers, just not in the same year.
Having seen Plattsburgh play, I think Gorham is their best, and most efficient player. He rebounds, plays defense, shoots a high %, blocks shots, and is a great passer, who can handle the ball. Reminds me a lot of Brendan Mitchell, but Gorham is more physical and less fluid in space.
If you're thinking two from the same team, I think Amherst has a pair this year, and U of Rochester's bigs both have to be considered.
One of my friends, who is a long-time D-I coach, has always said that if you have a top point guard who can score, and a big man who can catch, score, rebound, and pass, you have the makings of a good team.
Must be before the NABC changed its rules to take the position that there must be an 8-man first team and only one player from each region can be on it.
It's policies like that (and politics) that led the NABC to not name Devean George to its first team. George got the last laugh when the Lakers drafted him three months later.
"...One of my friends, who is a long-time D-I coach, has always said that if you have a top point guard who can score, and a big man who can catch, score, rebound, and pass, you have the makings of a good team...."
sounds like something a former All American Point guard from Potsdam would say ;)
Quoteand a big man who can catch, score, rebound, and pass, you have the makings of a good team
That is a complete big man...one I would love to have. But a rare commodity in D3. There are some that fall through the cracks though.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 07, 2008, 11:49:52 PM
Must be before the NABC changed its rules to take the position that there must be an 8-man first team and only one player from each region can be on it.
The NABC switched over from the 5-5-5 All-American team to the 8-8 All-American team for the 1995-96 season.
The 1978-79 North Park championship team had Michael Harper on the NABC first team and Modzel Greer on the second team. The 1979-80 North Park championship team had Harper on the first team again and Greer on the second team again, with Michael Thomas (a 1980-81 first-teamer) joining Greer on the second team. As far as I can tell, that's the only time that a squad managed to place three players on the NABC All-American team.
Sager, I am going to assume you went to North Park. I was curious. Have you been a life-long fan or just since you went there?
Quote from: LogShow on February 08, 2008, 04:54:33 AM
Sager, I am going to assume you went to North Park. I was curious. Have you been a life-long fan or just since you went there?
The 1979-80 season (the third leg of the national championship threepeat) was my freshman year at North Park. That's how I got hooked. I didn't grow up in the Chicago area, so I had never seen the Vikings before that season, and I was only vaguely familiar with the whole basketball vibe at North Park due to hearing about it from some older friends who went to school there.
The campus was absolutely nuts over the basketball team my freshman year, which, given how incredibly good the Vikings were, was no surprise. I was later able as an alumnus to see the Vikings win two more national championships.
www.collegiatebasketballinvitational.com
Top Seniors within D-III are listed, along with those from D-II and the NAIA.....
There's already a CBI topic.
One name I would like to throw out there is Jason Foster from Puget Sound. He is a 6'7 inside/outside do-everything player...and lots of fun to watch.
Quote from: Titan Q on November 02, 2007, 11:39:02 AM
Was thinking about preseason All-Americans, and as far as a 1st Team, I think I'd go with...
G Andrew Olsen (Amherst)
G James Cooper (Wooster)
G Kent Raymond (Wheaton)
F Troy Ruths (Wash U)
C Ben Strong (Guilford)
Four months later, I still feel pretty good about this squad.
Quote from: LogShow on February 21, 2008, 12:17:13 AM
One name I would like to throw out there is Jason Foster from Puget Sound. He is a 6'7 inside/outside do-everything player...and lots of fun to watch.
Wait til next year LogShow. Foster is very good and would easily get my vote for preseason NWC conf. POTY, but he wasn't the best player in conf. this year and you know it. Maybe after the Wheaton game, Ryan Symes name will be better known in D3 land.
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on March 10, 2008, 11:06:23 AM
Quote from: LogShow on February 21, 2008, 12:17:13 AM
One name I would like to throw out there is Jason Foster from Puget Sound. He is a 6'7 inside/outside do-everything player...and lots of fun to watch.
Wait til next year LogShow. Foster is very good and would easily get my vote for preseason NWC conf. POTY, but he wasn't the best player in conf. this year and you know it. Maybe after the Wheaton game, Ryan Symes name will be better known in D3 land.
Yeah that statement was made back in Feb. when UPS was 9-1 and rolling. Symes was definately the most deserving POY for the NWC and could get even more recognition. Maybe next year for Foster :)
Let me just say a name that comes to my head um...............maybe Ryan Kroeger?!
lol, i am a big LU fan, just had to say. ;D
Jimmy Bartolotta is a junior at MIT and a two time 1st team all NEWMAC selection (he was rookie of the year his freshman year). This past year he averaged 24 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg, and 2.3 spg, while shooting 53% from the field, 42% from 3, and 80% from the FT line. He was ranked in the top 15 in every statistical category reported by the NEWMAC (12 categories), and ranked in the top 5 of most categories. He was a finalist for the Jostens trophy and a first team academic all-american (as well as academic all NEWMAC).
You love pushing him, but I seriously doubt he will be getting all american other than perhaps an honorable mention, but I doubt that as well. Jostens trophy involves much more than just basketball, which is why you can be a good but not great baller and be a finalist. That being said, JB is a good player and with another year under his belt and a better season from MIT could be a candidate for both Jostens and AA next season.
I was just simply stating the facts, and I dont know what you mean by pushing him. This is the first time I posted about him on this board or with respect to being an all-american. By the way, how many times have you seen him play to say he is not a "great" player. How many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast. MIT's record my have suffered due to multiple injuries (including Bartolotta) during the last 8 games but he is one of the most complete players in d3.
Also, he is ranked nationally in 9 of 10 categories tracked by the NCAA, both offensive and defensive, including, #7 in scoring, #48 in steals, #96 in FG%, #112 in assists, and #149 in FT% (he is also ranked in rebounds, blocks, 3s, and assist/turnover). Just as a comparison (I am not comparing the players in terms of talent or trying to take anything away from these incredible players, I am just comparing them in terms of the numbers), but Ben Strong is only ranked in 5 categories nationally and Andrew Olson is ranked in only 2 categories. I am not saying he should be a first team all-american or anything like that. All I am saying is that he deserves consideration when it comes to the all-region and all-american teams (whether it be honorable mention or higher).
Also, if you did some research, you would see that there was a first team all-american last year (Mike Hoyt, mount st. marys, given he averaged 34 ppg) on a team with a 9-16 record. (I am not trying to take anything away from Hoyt, or comparing him to Bartolotta in anyway, I am just using this as an example of an all-american coming from a team with a subpar record.)
If you go to the NESCAC board, I am sure there are people "pushing" the best players in that conference, Olson, Walters, Hasiuk, etc. Or if you went to some other conference, like the WIAC, CCIW, UAA, etc, they would be "pushing" someone else. Because I am the only one backing MIT, I feel like I have to make more posts. It would be much easier for me to sit back and say nothing, but I am a fan, and as long as I am a fan, even if I am the only one that MIT has, I will continue to make posts supporting them on these boards. And if you are going to say a player isnt great, maybe you should go see them play a few times before you pass judgement. Also, if you can find a player ranked in more NCAA categories in d3 (www.ncaasports.com), I would love to know. He may not be the best player in d3, but I dont think there are many more that are as intelligent and complete on both ends of the floor.
Jimmy B will get his due next season.
hugenerd, stick to your guns!
In addition to Mike Hoyt, Zach Freeman (IWU) was (deservedly) first-team AA, despite the team going 11-14 (4-10 in the CCIW), their worst record in the 60+ years of the conference. Individual honors are (and probably should be, to a degree) affected by team success, but team success (or failure) should not be overly determinant of individual honors. Afterall, there are numerous players in the various Halls of Fame who never won the World Series, NBA title, or Super Bowl. ;)
you forgot lord stanley's cup
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
???
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
???
It is a very deep region. MIT's OWP was 0.58. They were ranked 17th in OWP/OOWP. 8 of the top 20 OWP/OOWP teams come from the northeast. The northeat may not be the toughest division, but there are a lot of tough teams.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
MIT plays as tough a schedule as anyone in the country. Very few cupcakes, even in a region full of them. They are one of the really courageous schedule-makers and it has probably cost them Pool C consideration in the past.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
MIT plays as tough a schedule as anyone in the country. Very few cupcakes, even in a region full of them. They are one of the really courageous schedule-makers and it has probably cost them Pool C consideration in the past.
I'm not challenging MIT's schedule. I'm challenging the contention that the Northeast is a difficult region. Sure, it has its share of good teams, but that's mitigated by the fact that it's also by far the most populous region in D3. As you said yourself, it's Cupcake Central.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 15, 2008, 12:04:16 AM
As you said yourself, it's Cupcake Central.
But only if you schedule them. I don't think its as stacked as the Midwest, of course, but I think it's tougher than most regions, if the top teams would actually play each other.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 15, 2008, 12:04:16 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
MIT plays as tough a schedule as anyone in the country. Very few cupcakes, even in a region full of them. They are one of the really courageous schedule-makers and it has probably cost them Pool C consideration in the past.
I'm not challenging MIT's schedule. I'm challenging the contention that the Northeast is a difficult region. Sure, it has its share of good teams, but that's mitigated by the fact that it's also by far the most populous region in D3. As you said yourself, it's Cupcake Central.
Good points, GS.
The conferences also have sufficient non-conference opponents within a two hour bus ride to construct schedules that take full advantage of the OWP and the OOWP.
The NESCAC plays 9 conference games. The 14-team CCC plays single round robin. The 7-team NEWMAC plays 12 conference games. The 8-team LEC plays 14 conference games, leaving 11 non-conference games to construct a schedule that works for the team. The region is positioned to "accentuate the positive".
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 15, 2008, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 15, 2008, 12:04:16 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
MIT plays as tough a schedule as anyone in the country. Very few cupcakes, even in a region full of them. They are one of the really courageous schedule-makers and it has probably cost them Pool C consideration in the past.
I'm not challenging MIT's schedule. I'm challenging the contention that the Northeast is a difficult region. Sure, it has its share of good teams, but that's mitigated by the fact that it's also by far the most populous region in D3. As you said yourself, it's Cupcake Central.
Good points, GS.
The conferences also have sufficient non-conference opponents within a two hour bus ride to construct schedules that take full advantage of the OWP and the OOWP.
The NESCAC plays 9 conference games. The 14-team CCC plays single round robin. The 7-team NEWMAC plays 12 conference games. The 8-team LEC plays 14 conference games, leaving 11 non-conference games to construct a schedule that works for the team. The region is positioned to "accentuate the positive".
Just to point out, while the other conferences don't have an excuse, the CCC thing is probably only a one season interim solution as they adjust to a larger conference. They generally beat up on each other pretty well.
The big difference really is that the good teams don't have to play each other, like the good teams in other regions. More teams mean more chances to avoid the tough games outside of conference play.
MIT may have played a good schedule, but it's not because they were in "... a region as difficult as the Northeast."
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2008, 12:12:56 PM
MIT may have played a good schedule, but it's not because they were in "... a region as difficult as the Northeast."
I was simply making a reference to the better teams in the region. You can interpret that comment how you will. I guess you could read it several different ways, the statement I made was a bit ambiguous, for example, you could read it as " a region as difficult as the northeast, top to bottom" (which is not what I intended), or "a region as difficult as the northeast, in terms of having a high number of very good teams" (which is how I intended the comment). Depending on how you read it, your reaction obviously would be different, but I was simply trying to make a remark regarding MIT's tough schedule. Just as a recap: last years national champion was from the northeast, (as I have said previously) 8 of the top 20 OWP teams are from the northeast, the #2 conference rated by Massey in in the northeast (Brandeis is in the #1 massey rated conference), and there are 3 teams in the elite 8 from the northeast.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 15, 2008, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 15, 2008, 12:04:16 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 14, 2008, 01:51:04 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 13, 2008, 11:31:35 PMHow many other players have those types of credentials playing in a region as difficult as the northeast.
"... a region as difficult as the Northeast"?
MIT plays as tough a schedule as anyone in the country. Very few cupcakes, even in a region full of them. They are one of the really courageous schedule-makers and it has probably cost them Pool C consideration in the past.
I'm not challenging MIT's schedule. I'm challenging the contention that the Northeast is a difficult region. Sure, it has its share of good teams, but that's mitigated by the fact that it's also by far the most populous region in D3. As you said yourself, it's Cupcake Central.
Good points, GS.
The conferences also have sufficient non-conference opponents within a two hour bus ride to construct schedules that take full advantage of the OWP and the OOWP.
The NESCAC plays 9 conference games. The 14-team CCC plays single round robin. The 7-team NEWMAC plays 12 conference games. The 8-team LEC plays 14 conference games, leaving 11 non-conference games to construct a schedule that works for the team. The region is positioned to "accentuate the positive".
Precisely. Well stated, Ralph.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 15, 2008, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2008, 12:12:56 PM
MIT may have played a good schedule, but it's not because they were in "... a region as difficult as the Northeast."
I was simply making a reference to the better teams in the region. You can interpret that comment how you will. I guess you could read it several different ways, the statement I made was a bit ambiguous, for example, you could read it as " a region as difficult as the northeast, top to bottom" (which is not what I intended), or "a region as difficult as the northeast, in terms of having a high number of very good teams" (which is how I intended the comment).
Whenever I encounter someone touting a conference or a region as being strong, my first thought is: "Top to bottom?" A conference or a region should
always be measured in full, rather than only by its top teams, if you're making a blanket statement about it. After all, you don't lose membership in a conference or a region by being a bad team. You're still there, and you drag down the competitive level of your peers with you.
Intending a blanket statement about a conference or region to only mean its top teams will only lead to confusion, as your post did.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 15, 2008, 07:51:01 PMJust as a recap: last years national champion was from the northeast, (as I have said previously) 8 of the top 20 OWP teams are from the northeast, the #2 conference rated by Massey in in the northeast (Brandeis is in the #1 massey rated conference), and there are 3 teams in the elite 8 from the northeast.
The OWP stuff has already been addressed by Ralph. And much of the rest of what you're putting forth here can be easily explained by D3's cost-conscious method of constructing the bracket, which keeps teams close to home and thus benefits teams in the northeastern part of the country. Unlike midwestern, southern, and West Coast teams, the NE-NY-PA-NJ-MD teams can be configured much more easily to balance out seeding, because the four regions east of the Allegheny River and north of the Potomac River are so geographically compact. You can get from Boston to Washington DC within the 500-mile bus limit imposed upon the D3 tournament's selection committee for bracketing purposes, and with fifty miles to spare. It's this geographical compactness that explains how the tournament ended up with two NESCAC teams in the Final Four in '04.
That's not taking anything away from Amherst, or from the great Williams teams that preceded them in NESCAC hegemony. Those teams have proved in the Final Four that they can play with anyone in the country, and I think that everyone agrees that the NESCAC is legit in terms of being a power conference (in spite of its ridiculous refusal to play a double round-robin). But only five non-NESCAC teams from the Northeast Region have ever made the Final Four (Clark in '84, Clark in '87, Southern Maine in '89, Mass-Dartmouth in '93, and Salem State in '00), and none of them ever won the Big Doorstop. Considering the fact that it's the most populous region in the country even without the NESCAC, that's an absolutely deplorable legacy.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
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Whenever I encounter someone touting a conference or a region as being strong, my first thought is: "Top to bottom?" A conference or a region should always be measured in full, rather than only by its top teams, if you're making a blanket statement about it. After all, you don't lose membership in a conference or a region by being a bad team. You're still there, and you drag down the competitive level of your peers with you.
Intending a blanket statement about a conference or region to only mean its top teams will only lead to confusion, as your post did.
Greg, I agree that is true if you are talking about the strength of a conference or region. But it's not necessarily true if you are talking about a particular team within that region. A team that has dispensed with largely inferior competition may still, in fact, be a very good team. I fear sometimes people assume the top team in a conference is weak because the conference itself is not very strong; or, conversely, might think the top team in a good conference is better than it is because of the relative strength of the conference top to bottom. Out of conference play obviously has to be the main measure for determining the relative strength of a conference.
anyone think fletcher walters has a chance for AA?
Quote from: fpc85 on March 17, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
anyone think fletcher walters has a chance for AA?
fpc85
I don't know about AA, but I thought he was the best player at the Plattsburgh sectional. He'd get my vote for AA if I had one.
Quote from: HopeConvert on March 17, 2008, 08:05:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
.
Whenever I encounter someone touting a conference or a region as being strong, my first thought is: "Top to bottom?" A conference or a region should always be measured in full, rather than only by its top teams, if you're making a blanket statement about it. After all, you don't lose membership in a conference or a region by being a bad team. You're still there, and you drag down the competitive level of your peers with you.
Intending a blanket statement about a conference or region to only mean its top teams will only lead to confusion, as your post did.
Greg, I agree that is true if you are talking about the strength of a conference or region. But it's not necessarily true if you are talking about a particular team within that region. A team that has dispensed with largely inferior competition may still, in fact, be a very good team. I fear sometimes people assume the top team in a conference is weak because the conference itself is not very strong; or, conversely, might think the top team in a good conference is better than it is because of the relative strength of the conference top to bottom. Out of conference play obviously has to be the main measure for determining the relative strength of a conference.
I agree, but that's tangential to the point that Hugenerd and I were discussing. His claim was that the Northeast Region was "difficult", and I challenged him on that.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 18, 2008, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: HopeConvert on March 17, 2008, 08:05:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
.
Whenever I encounter someone touting a conference or a region as being strong, my first thought is: "Top to bottom?" A conference or a region should always be measured in full, rather than only by its top teams, if you're making a blanket statement about it. After all, you don't lose membership in a conference or a region by being a bad team. You're still there, and you drag down the competitive level of your peers with you.
Intending a blanket statement about a conference or region to only mean its top teams will only lead to confusion, as your post did.
Greg, I agree that is true if you are talking about the strength of a conference or region. But it's not necessarily true if you are talking about a particular team within that region. A team that has dispensed with largely inferior competition may still, in fact, be a very good team. I fear sometimes people assume the top team in a conference is weak because the conference itself is not very strong; or, conversely, might think the top team in a good conference is better than it is because of the relative strength of the conference top to bottom. Out of conference play obviously has to be the main measure for determining the relative strength of a conference.
I agree, but that's tangential to the point that Hugenerd and I were discussing. His claim was that the Northeast Region was "difficult", and I challenged him on that.
And my point is that because the region is so populous, there are a lot of good teams (although there are a lot of bad teams as well). Meaning, the region can be very difficult if you play the top teams. The high number of northeast teams in the OWP top 20 is telling you that many of the top teams in the region are playing eachother. Which all leads to my originally intended point, which is that MIT played a tough schedule (their OWP is 17). Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 18, 2008, 11:14:41 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 18, 2008, 02:05:52 AM
Quote from: HopeConvert on March 17, 2008, 08:05:28 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2008, 03:27:28 AM
.
Whenever I encounter someone touting a conference or a region as being strong, my first thought is: "Top to bottom?" A conference or a region should always be measured in full, rather than only by its top teams, if you're making a blanket statement about it. After all, you don't lose membership in a conference or a region by being a bad team. You're still there, and you drag down the competitive level of your peers with you.
Intending a blanket statement about a conference or region to only mean its top teams will only lead to confusion, as your post did.
Greg, I agree that is true if you are talking about the strength of a conference or region. But it's not necessarily true if you are talking about a particular team within that region. A team that has dispensed with largely inferior competition may still, in fact, be a very good team. I fear sometimes people assume the top team in a conference is weak because the conference itself is not very strong; or, conversely, might think the top team in a good conference is better than it is because of the relative strength of the conference top to bottom. Out of conference play obviously has to be the main measure for determining the relative strength of a conference.
I agree, but that's tangential to the point that Hugenerd and I were discussing. His claim was that the Northeast Region was "difficult", and I challenged him on that.
And my point is that because the region is so populous, there are a lot of good teams (although there are a lot of bad teams as well). Meaning, the region can be very difficult if you play the top teams. The high number of northeast teams in the OWP top 20 is telling you that many of the top teams in the region are playing eachother. Which all leads to my originally intended point, which is that MIT played a tough schedule (their OWP is 17). Sorry for the confusion.
In judging the region, I would like to see the regions scored "top-to-bottom"
In the northeast and the midwest we mathematically assign the teams rankings from alpha to omega.
We look at the alpha's vs the alpha's, the mu's vs the mu's and the omega's vs the omega's.
Is the 50th %ile Midwest Region team better than the 50th %ile Northeast team?
I know that I am mixing metaphors, but I think that the bottom of the Northeast is not very strong.
Just a topic of perpetual debate... :-\
First off, Congrats to WashU.
I was just looking over the NABC site; is it me, or does their all-region and all-american teams make very little sense. I just looked them over briefly, but Troy Ruths did not make any of the 3 all-america teams and fellow UAA big man, Jon Onyiriuka did (he didnt even make 1st team all-conference).
Quote from: hugenerd on March 23, 2008, 12:31:11 AM
First off, Congrats to WashU.
I was just looking over the NABC site; is it me, or does their all-region and all-american teams make very little sense. I just looked them over briefly, but Troy Ruths did not make any of the 3 all-america teams and fellow UAA big man, Jon Onyiriuka did (he didnt even make 1st team all-conference).
You are correct. I think that proves that the NABC has little idea what's really going on in Division III...
The National Assoc. of Basketball Coaches has little idea of what's going on in Div. III. Quite a statement considering the number of Div. III coaches that are members. I think it is more the criteria the voters are given.
I am just wondering under what criteria, one would pick Onyiriuka (12.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg, .8 bpg, 2.1 apg, 48.5 FG%, 39.1 FT%) over Ruths (19.6 ppg, 6.7 rbg, 1.5 bpg, 2.1 apg, 49.1 FG%, 74% FT%). Was there a regional quota?
It's based on regular season stats and the top vote getters from each district make up the AA team. This has been the criteria for quite a while. I'm not saying the criteria is right. But, you can't question the knowledge of those voting.
You can if they take Anthony Pettaway over Troy Ruths.
In the Midwest voting there are two UAA coaches and nine HCAC coaches. Are you sure there is no politics at work?
Pat - Are your accusations based by facts? There are the same distribution of SID's for the D3hoops voting.
Well, now, the only thing I am accusing you of is not being sure. Don't overreact.
The SIDs for the same schools did seem to get it right. Perhaps they are more interested in rating players fairly rather than blindly voting for their own players.
Your accusations were against the HCAC coaches, not me. The NABC does not allow voting for your schools nominee's. I hope your not trying to make this small discussion personal, again.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2008, 06:56:29 PM
Well, now, the only thing I am accusing you of is not being sure. Don't overreact.
What I asked was if you were sure there was no politics at work. Are you sure? Seems like you are reading something into my post that isn't there.
We do not allow voting for your school's nominees either. However, you can certainly overrate other members of your own conference at the expense of accuracy.
The SIDs didn't do that. I suspect that may have happened with the NABC Midwest team. There is no way that Troy Ruths isn't somehow one of the three best players in the region.
I am sure that Troy Ruths would have appreciated being named an NABC All-American but the fact that he and his fellow team members are holding the National Championship trophy today in St. Louis, probably helps him get over any disappointment he might feel. The Josten's trophy, Final Four MVP, D3Hoops.Com POY, etc. The guys mantle can only hold so many awards. Living in HCAC country and seeing all of the men's teams one or more times per year, the league has many good to very good players and Anthony Pettaway certainly fits that category. Congrats to the Bears on a great year and to Troy and Aaron (Wash U #33) on being named to the All Final Four Team. It made the drive down from NW Ohio to Salem that much more fun.
Which all america award is the "official" one in the eyes of the NCAA. In track it is simple, you place top 8 your an AA and you get the pretty plaque, in bball it seems much more grey, besides just the subjective voting.
There is no official All-American team in team sports in the eyes of the NCAA.
I mean I have seen a number of certificates in the soccer coaches' offices that resemble the same ones given for individual sports from the NCAA.
If you notice, the NCAA doesn't have any official national polls or any official national All-American awards (in team sports) at any level.
At D-I, the polls are provided by the coaches' association and the AP and AP does an All-American team. The NCAA doesn't like to get in the position of judging kids like that -- when there's a definitive time-based element to it, they give out awards, like swimming and track.
Hey pat just wondering were did statistics play a factor in the d3hoops selection because granted most of theses young men played on the top teams in the country did they actually put up major numbers. When i check the leading categories of many statistics none of those players are even honorable mention. When do you overlook great talent for just a good player in a tough league
Well, we look at stats but we absolutely look at who the stats were compiled against.
You don't have to play on a top team to make our All-American team, but you need to play at least a representative schedule. From your part of the country, Nick Harrington and Doug Hammond were talked about, but it's hard to translate how they would do against a real schedule. Green Mountain played the 404th-"best" schedule in Division III (out of 405 ranked by Massey), while Southern Vermont played schedule No. 361.
Compared to what Chad McGowan did against schedule No. 201 or Dan Holbrook did against No. 174, schedules smack-dab in the middle, fairly average, it was hard to make good cases for them getting on.
Well, I guess I'll put my thoughts here on the PRE-SEASON All-Americans...
Not sure if d3hoops did their homework or not, but rumor around the campfire is that Pete Rortvedt (3rd team) isn't playing this year. At this time, it seems like no one knows yet.
I guess we'll wait tomorrow when Point has their annual Purple Gold game...
Congrats to Jason Foster of Puget Sound for making a pre-season all-american team. I am expecting big things out to him, and he should be leading Puget Sound back to the tournement and into the national picture.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on November 07, 2008, 09:16:45 AM
Well, I guess I'll put my thoughts here on the PRE-SEASON All-Americans...
Not sure if d3hoops did their homework or not, but rumor around the campfire is that Pete Rortvedt (3rd team) isn't playing this year. At this time, it seems like no one knows yet.
I guess we'll wait tomorrow when Point has their annual Purple Gold game...
He was on the preseason report that UW-SP filed with us. Ross Rortvedt was not, however.
After 12 of the preseason Top 25 teams were from the West or Midwest, 13 of the 25 preseason All-Americans are from the West or Midwest. I like it.
Wooster guard Brandon Johnson is injured, and optimistically slated to return by the first of the year. Did this figure into his not being chosen as one of the top ten guards in the country?
Yes.
Quote from: Wooster Booster on November 08, 2008, 11:55:06 PM
Wooster guard Brandon Johnson is injured, and optimistically slated to return by the first of the year. Did this figure into his not being chosen as one of the top ten guards in the country?
Just FYI, here are the '07-08 offensive numbers for the 10 preseason All-American guards (*Sean Wallis numbers are '06-07):
1st Team Sean Wallis*, Wash U (Jr) - 13.5 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 7.3 apg, 122-278 FG (.439), 48-128 3-pt (.375), 113-131 FT (.863)
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (Sr) - 24.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 3.9 apg, 237-549 FG (.432), 75-217 3-pt (.346), 185-208 FT (.889)
2nd Team Matt Goodwin, UW-Whitewater (Sr) - 17.8 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.0 apg, 164-332 FG (.494), 67-158 3-pt (.424), 86-122 FT (.705)
Jimmy Bartolotta, MIT (Sr) - 23.9 ppg, 5.8 apg, 4.0 rpg, 208-390 FG (.533), 59-142 3-pt (.415), 99-123 FT (.805)
3rd Team Steve Djurickovic, Carthage (So) - 23.2 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 189-401 FG (.471), 16-65 3-pt (.246), 186-234 FT (.795)
Nate Stahl, Capital (Sr.) - 13.2 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 1.5 apg, 141-279 FG (.505), 17-57 3-pt (.298), 103-135 FT (.763)
4th Team Mike Moore, Capital (Sr) - 17.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 6.5 apg, 150-321 FG (.467), 66-163 3-pt (.405), 83-107 FT (.776)
Brett Wessels, Augustana (Sr.) - 14.2 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 120-325 FG (.369), 54-156 3-pt (.346), 119-140 FT (.850)
HM Dan Capkin, Gettysburg (Sr.) - 19.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.4 apg, 195-396 FG (.492), 75-187 FG (.401), 104-130 FT (.800)
Caleb Veldhouse, Calvin (Sr.) - 17.2 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.6 apg, 163-375 FG (.435), 58-136 FG (.426), 81-107 FT (.757)
----------
A few of the near misses I'm aware of:
Ryan Kroeger, Lawrence (Sr) - 17.5 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 2.4 apg, 131-237 FG (.553), 52-109 3-pt (.477), 123-145 FT (.848) Ryan Burks, Elmhurst (Sr) - 17.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.0 apg, 124-273 FG (.454), 66-153 3-pt (.431), 128-144 FT (.889)Aaron Thompson, Wash U (Jr) - 11.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 113-240 FG (.471), 68-155 3-pt (.439), 58-76 FT (.763)
Brandon Jones, Wooster (Sr) - 11.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.8 apg, 104-242 FG (.430), 40-98 3-pt (.408), 69-87 FG (.793)
Wesley guard Rashawn Johnson was among the final guards considered as well.
http://athletics.wesley.edu/sports/mbkb/2007-08/stats/teamcume.htm
Was the poor showing last year responsible for leaving the Grinnell guards off any of the lists?
There seems to be some lack of agreement as to which of the two Grinnell guards is the better one. I'm hoping to take advantage of my new geography and see for myself.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 11, 2008, 11:41:11 PM
There seems to be some lack of agreement as to which of the two Grinnell guards is the better one. I'm hoping to take advantage of my new geography and see for myself.
Let me know when you're planning to go. It would give me extra motivation to get up there again, especially now that gas is reasonably priced.
Grinnell's hosting Wheaton on January 3rd; maybe we can get April to fly out?
I am an admitted Emerson basketball and GNAC basketball fan, but I have a legitimate question for all you posters who have seen many more players across the country than I have -- is there any point guard in the country better than Emerson's Jeremy Shannon? He won Player of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year in the GNAC as a sophomore, and jump started his junior campaign with a 25 point, 11 assist, 9 rebound performance that included an overtime-forcing 3-pointer at the buzzer. He might be the quickest player in Division 3 and has an amazing finishing ability around the basket. I found it interesting, and in fact preposterous, that the Preseason All-American teams found 10 other guards better than him.
Quote from: Dance Major on November 21, 2008, 04:53:40 PM
I am an admitted Emerson basketball and GNAC basketball fan, but I have a legitimate question for all you posters who have seen many more players across the country than I have -- is there any point guard in the country better than Emerson's Jeremy Shannon? He won Player of the Year and Defensive Player of the Year in the GNAC as a sophomore, and jump started his junior campaign with a 25 point, 11 assist, 9 rebound performance that included an overtime-forcing 3-pointer at the buzzer. He might be the quickest player in Division 3 and has an amazing finishing ability around the basket. I found it interesting, and in fact preposterous, that the Preseason All-American teams found 10 other guards better than him.
His stats from the games this season are irrelevant as far as the preseason team goes. Also, as jamiejohn said on the northeast board, 16 ppg, 5 rpg, and 4 apg doesnt really jump out at you, especially since they didnt make the tourney (although they had a good overall record). The thing he needs most is some exposure. Putting up numbers in the GNAC doesnt get the respect as it does in other conferences, such as the CCIW, WIAC, and UAA (for example). If they win the GNAC and he plays well in the tourney, he should get more consideration.
I realize his stats are meaningless to the "Preseason All-American" conversation, almost as meaningless as discussing the merits of a "preseason All-American" in general, I just wanted to put his name in the discussion of the best guards, or even players, in the nation, and provide some statistical backing.
The GNAC isn't a great conference, but the team that beat them in the GNAC title game just beat a highly ranked Brandeis team, and their 24 wins weren't enough to get an at-large bid. 16 points, 4 assists, and 5 rebounds per game on 60% (!!!!!!) shooting last season, while winning Defensive Player of the Year for the conference just must not jump out to some people, but hopefully the people who make the decisions about the REAL All-American teams take the opportunity to see this kid play at some point this year and judge for themselves. On a bad team, or if he was a selfish player, he could easily average 25+ but he plays the right way.
i know we're talking about pre-season all americans here but let me just throw this into the mix.
Marvin Billups, 6'5" wingman for SUNY Purchase, POST-season all american. He dropped 28 against New Paltz, 29 against Hartwick to win the tournament for Purchase, their first ever tournament win in their first ever season as an official NCAA school. The kid can jump out of the gym and he's only a sophomore.
Quote from: Dance Major on November 22, 2008, 03:13:32 PM
I realize his stats are meaningless to the "Preseason All-American" conversation, almost as meaningless as discussing the merits of a "preseason All-American" in general, I just wanted to put his name in the discussion of the best guards, or even players, in the nation, and provide some statistical backing.
The GNAC isn't a great conference, but the team that beat them in the GNAC title game just beat a highly ranked Brandeis team, and their 24 wins weren't enough to get an at-large bid. 16 points, 4 assists, and 5 rebounds per game on 60% (!!!!!!) shooting last season, while winning Defensive Player of the Year for the conference just must not jump out to some people, but hopefully the people who make the decisions about the REAL All-American teams take the opportunity to see this kid play at some point this year and judge for themselves. On a bad team, or if he was a selfish player, he could easily average 25+ but he plays the right way.
You fail to post that Shannon averaged 4.5 turnovers a game. How could you put a guard who averages 4.5 turnovers a game on an All-American team? He did not even get mentioned in last years all region team from d3hoops or the NABC. He had no chance of making preseason All-American. To say he is one of the best in the nation is a very
bold statement.
Korsair, you might try a different approach and just throw a name out there for people to watch. It takes a lot of time to get national notice, especially if your stats don't stand out from the crowd.
I've seen some success in the past throwing names out there without proclaiming them "all-americans" and letting those who have the power take notice and check things out for themselves.
One thing I have learned with nearly a decade on this board, d3hoops gets it right. They rarely miss on all-americans, even if certain individuals might disagree with which team on which they should appear.
MIT beat Curry 90-63 tonight. Jimmy Bartolotta went for 43 points (14-22 FG, 8-12 from 3), 5 reb, 5 assists, and 3 steals.
The 43 points by Bartolotta is an MIT single-game record that had stood for 46 years. The previous record of 41 was held by the one and only David Koch. For those of you who dont know who David Koch is, you have probably heard of people he is richer than (such as Donald Trump). Koch is currently the richest resident of New York ($10 B) and he and his brother own the largest privately owned company in the world, Koch Industries. He also has at least 3 buildings or programs (1 under construction, the Koch Cancer Institute) named after him at MIT and is still a prominent figure at MIT (there is a portrait of him in the lobby of the chemical engineering building, the bio building is the Koch Building, there is also the Koch School of Chemical Engineering Practice).
He also tied a school record for most 3s in a game with 8.
Quote from: hugenerd on November 25, 2008, 09:05:06 PM
MIT beat Curry 90-63 tonight. Jimmy Bartolotta went for 43 points (14-22 FG, 8-12 from 3), 5 reb, 5 assists, and 3 steals.
The 43 points by Bartolotta is an MIT single-game record that had stood for 46 years. The previous record of 41 was held by the one and only David Koch. For those of you who dont know who David Koch is, you have probably heard of people he is richer than (such as Donald Trump). Koch is currently the richest resident of New York ($10 B) and he and his brother own the largest privately owned company in the world, Koch Industries. He also has at least 3 buildings or programs (1 under construction, the Koch Cancer Institute) named after him at MIT and is still a prominent figure at MIT (there is a portrait of him in the lobby of the chemical engineering building, the bio building is the Koch Building, there is also the Koch School of Chemical Engineering Practice).
He also tied a school record for most 3s in a game with 8.
Bartolotta, obviously, not Koch. :D
Anyone who's interested in watching two of the best players in NE (and both preseason all-americans) face off against eachother should come to MIT tomorrow at 3 to see Tufts vs. MIT. Jon Pierce and Jimmy Bartolotta have both been playing really well in the early season, so it should be a good matchup. As an added bonus, Bartolotta is only 9 points away from breaking the career scoring record for MIT (1700), so you can (potentially) come watch as he further rewrites the MIT record books.
Who are the top players in the country at the Division III level this year?
This is probably a good place to start. Not sure how these guys or others are doing.
http://www.d3hoops.com/all-american/menpreseason09.htm
There's a whole "who's the best" section on the board. Just FYI.
I dont know if this is the right board to post this on, but has anyone else noticed that John Grotberg from Grinnell has been averaging 17 ppg over the last 5 games, since d3hoops ran that article on him averaging 35 ppg? I found that to be a mildly humorous coincidence. The old reporter's jinx.
This was posted on the NEWMAC board, but if anyone is interested, this is an article in today's New York Times about MIT senior guard Jimmy Bartolotta:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/sports/ncaabasketball/06mit.html?_r=1&ref=sports
Quote from: hugenerd on January 26, 2009, 08:31:30 AM
I dont know if this is the right board to post this on, but has anyone else noticed that John Grotberg from Grinnell has been averaging 17 ppg over the last 5 games, since d3hoops ran that article on him averaging 35 ppg? I found that to be a mildly humorous coincidence. The old reporter's jinx.
Glenn Van Wieren appears on Hoopsville...........Hope loses to Calvin
Kevin VandeStreak appears on Hoopsville............Calvin loses to Olivet
McClary brothers appear on front page................Olivet loses to Hope.
Kent Raymond gets bold headline scoring 2500 points.........sprains ankle
make you wonder.............. ;)
Quote from: sac on February 06, 2009, 03:09:18 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on January 26, 2009, 08:31:30 AM
I dont know if this is the right board to post this on, but has anyone else noticed that John Grotberg from Grinnell has been averaging 17 ppg over the last 5 games, since d3hoops ran that article on him averaging 35 ppg? I found that to be a mildly humorous coincidence. The old reporter's jinx.
Glenn Van Wieren appears on Hoopsville...........Hope loses to Calvin
Kevin VandeStreak appears on Hoopsville............Calvin loses to Olivet
McClary brothers appear on front page................Olivet loses to Hope.
Kent Raymond gets bold headline scoring 2500 points.........sprains ankle
make you wonder.............. ;)
It seems like the curse is only temporary, though, Grotberg has had a couple of 40+ point games since my post. Or by pointing out the curse, did I somehow reverse it?
Raymond already had the sprained ankle when we ran the 2,000-point story. He sprained it in the same game.
Olivet: A .500 team is bound to lose some games, no?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 06, 2009, 04:34:37 PM
Raymond already had the sprained ankle when we ran the 2,000-point story. He sprained it in the same game.
Olivet: A .500 team is bound to lose some games, no?
well obviously its hoopsville then. :)
Quote from: sac on February 06, 2009, 08:09:12 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 06, 2009, 04:34:37 PM
Raymond already had the sprained ankle when we ran the 2,000-point story. He sprained it in the same game.
Olivet: A .500 team is bound to lose some games, no?
well obviously its hoopsville then. :)
Yeah, I think it was April that pointed to the Hoopsville jinx at least two years ago.
Pat, you really want to pooh-pooh the sort of jinx that seems to work wonders for SI? ;)
You'll note I didn't say anything about Grotberg. :)
Yeah, it was quite a coincidence.
here are 2 players who should make the list Keenan Hardy and Jahrell Holmes of Rust College what do you think
You'll need to tell us more about them -- it's not like we can go to Rust's site and see their stats or anything.
fg-fga pct 3fg-fga ft-fta RB stl avg pts
F Keenan Hardy fr 150-240 62% 1-2 87-119 9.5 1.29 16.2
G Jahrell Holmes so 134-291 46% 54-149 29-41 4.1 0.96 14.6
And u can look at the site of the teams we played an see what they did
Except for Concordia-Selma or Philander Smith or Blue Mountain or Crichton ...
Honestly, that's a lot to ask someone to do, go to 20-some web sites and do the math. So thanks for providing some of the story.
How bout I sent u a copy of our stats from our stat crew program
RUST COLLEGE
Season Schedule/Results & Leaders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rust College Men Basketball
RUST COLLEGE Season Schedule/Results & Leaders
All games
RECORD: OVERALL HOME AWAY NEUTRAL
ALL GAMES........... (13-11) (8-0) (4-9) (1-2)
DATE TIME OPPONENT SCORE ATTEND HIGH POINTS HIGH REBOUNDS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11/18/28 8:00 pm at BLUE MOUNTAIN COLLEGE W 122-116 (40)Jahrell Holmes (11)Keenan Hardy
11/21/08 7 pm at SEWANEE W 77-66 292 (21)Jahrell Holmes (11)Keenan Hardy
11/22/89 1 pm vs Miss. College 72-89 L 62 (12)Keenan Hardy (8)Keenan Hardy
(12)Jahrell Holmes
11/25/08 6 p.m. at Huntingdon College W 86-79 67 (22)Jahrell Holmes (14)Keenan Hardy
11/29/08 7:00 pm vs Wesley College W 86-71 (19)Keenan Hardy (14)Keenan Hardy
(19)William Montgomery
11/30/08 3:00 pm at Millsaps 79-92 L 105 (18)Hakim Ameen (4)Jahrell Holmes
12/02/08 7:00 pm at Hendrix College 65-79 L 539 (18)Keenan Hardy (5)Jahrell Holmes
12/6/08 1:00 PIEDMONT COLLEGE W 88-85 (22)Jahrell Holmes (9)Dejuan Watts
12/6/08 4:30 p.m. at Webster 68-71 L 315 (17)Marcus Erves (7)Marcus Erves
12/8/08 7:00 pm at Fontbonne University 85-97 L 135 (20)Keenan Hardy (8)Keenan Hardy
12/10/08 7:00PM at RHODES09 79-82 L 357 (17)Marcus Erves (8)Keenan Hardy
(8)William Montgomery
12/13/08 3:00 p.m. MARYVILLE COLLEGE SCOTS W 92-74 (18)Hakim Ameen (13)Keenan Hardy
12/15/08 7:00 p.m. LAGRANGE COLLEGE PANTHERS W 86-77 (19)Keenan Hardy (13)Keenan Hardy
12/19/08 5:00 BIRMINGHAM SOUTHERN W 79-77 (21)Jahrell Holmes (10)Keenan Hardy
01/07/09 7:00 p.m. HUNTINGTON COLLEGE W 75-70 (14)Keenan Hardy (5)William Montgomery
(5)Omar Cumberbatch
1-18-09 4:00 at Maryville College Scots 76-107 L (22)Keenan Hardy (14)Keenan Hardy
01-25-09 2:00 at Piedmont College 82-84 L 300 (22)Dejuan Watts (10)Jahrell Holmes
(10)Keenan Hardy
1/26/09 7:00 at LaGrange College W 65-63 (14)Keenan Hardy (15)Keenan Hardy
02/02/09 7:00 p.m. CONCORDIA COLLEGE HORNETS W 88-81 (21)Hakim Ameen (19)Keenan Hardy
02/04/09 8:00 PHILANDER SMITH COLLEGE W 73-67 (19)Jahrell Holmes (10)Keenan Hardy
02/07/09 7:30 at LeMoyne-Owen 75-89 L (18)Jahrell Holmes (9)Keenan Hardy
02/13/09 7:30 p.m. PHILANDER SMITH PANTHERS W 105-76 (21)Dejuan Watts (12)Keenan Hardy
2/18/09 7:00pm at Birmingham-Southern 66-68 L 434 (31)Keenan Hardy (7)Keenan Hardy
02-19-09 7:00p.m. vs Crichton College 69-82 L (14)Dejuan Watts (10)Dejuan Watts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Season Box Score
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rust College Men Basketball
RUST COLLEGE Season Box Score (as of Feb 25, 2009)
All games
RECORD: OVERALL HOME AWAY NEUTRAL
ALL GAMES........... (13-11) (8-0) (4-9) (1-2)
## SUMMARY GP-GS Min FG% 3PT% FT% R/G A/G STL BLK PTS/G
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 Jahrell Holmes...... 24-21 28.3 .460 .362 .707 4.1 1.7 23 7 14.6
25 Keenan Hardy........ 24-17 27.8 .625 .500 .731 9.5 1.1 31 18 16.2
SCORING GP FG-FGA FG% 3FG-FGA 3PT% FT-FTA FT% PTS PTS/G
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 134-291 .460 54-149 .362 29-41 .707 351 14.6
Keenan Hardy........ 24 150-240 .625 1-2 .500 87-119 .731 388 16.2
REBOUNDS
TOTALS GP MIN OFF DEF TOT PF FO A TO A/TO HI
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 680 21 77 98 36 1 41 40 1.0 40
Keenan Hardy........ 24 667 73 154 227 58 0 26 50 0.5 31
Overall Team Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rust College Men Basketball
RUST COLLEGE Overall Team Statistics (as of Feb 25, 2009)
All games
TEAM STATISTICS RC OPP
---------------------------------------------------
SCORING.................. 1938 1942
Points per game........ 80.8 80.9
Scoring margin......... -0.2 -
FIELD GOALS-ATT.......... 733-1524 691-1576
Field goal pct......... .481 .438
3 POINT FG-ATT........... 139-376 229-655
3-point FG pct......... .370 .350
3-pt FG made per game.. 5.8 9.5
FREE THROWS-ATT.......... 333-479 331-506
Free throw pct......... .695 .654
F-Throws made per game. 13.9 13.8
REBOUNDS................. 876 904
Rebounds per game...... 36.5 37.7
Rebounding margin...... -1.2 -
ASSISTS.................. 364 361
Assists per game....... 15.2 15.0
TURNOVERS................ 383 351
Turnovers per game..... 16.0 14.6
Turnover margin........ -1.3 -
Assist/turnover ratio.. 1.0 1.0
STEALS................... 147 162
Steals per game........ 6.1 6.8
BLOCKS................... 67 55
Blocks per game........ 2.8 2.3
WINNING STREAK........... 0 -
Home win streak........ 8 -
ATTENDANCE............... 0 2606
Home games-Avg/Game.... 8-0 13-196
Neutral site-Avg/Game.. - 3-21
SCORE BY PERIODS: 1st 2nd Total
------------------------------ ---- ---- ----
RUST COLLEGE.................. 822 1116 - 1938
Opponents..................... 801 1141 - 1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category Leaders
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rust College Men Basketball
RUST COLLEGE Category Leaders
All games
POINTS G Pts Pts/G SCORING AVERAGE G Pts Avg/G
----------------------------------- ----------------------------------
Keenan Hardy........ 24 388 16.2 Keenan Hardy........ 24 388 16.2
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 351 14.6 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 351 14.6
Dejuan Watts........ 24 225 9.4 Dejuan Watts........ 24 225 9.4
Hakim Ameen......... 24 203 8.5 Hakim Ameen......... 24 203 8.5
William Montgomery.. 24 183 7.6 William Montgomery.. 24 183 7.6
Eric Jackson........ 24 154 6.4 Eric Jackson........ 24 154 6.4
Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 145 6.3 Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 145 6.3
Marcus Erves........ 24 121 5.0 Marcus Erves........ 24 121 5.0
Santez Bogard....... 22 54 2.5 Santez Bogard....... 22 54 2.5
Contreras Thomas.... 23 47 2.0 Emmanuel Jackson.... 18 37 2.1
Emmanuel Jackson.... 18 37 2.1 Contreras Thomas.... 23 47 2.0
Catron, Sergio...... 8 16 2.0 Catron, Sergio...... 8 16 2.0
FG PERCENTAGE FG ATT Pct FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS G Att Att/G
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Keenan Hardy........ 150 240 .625 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 291 12.1
Omar Cumberbatch.... 53 92 .576 Keenan Hardy........ 24 240 10.0
Catron, Sergio...... 8 15 .533 Dejuan Watts........ 24 214 8.9
Contreras Thomas.... 17 32 .531 Hakim Ameen......... 24 163 6.8
Dejuan Watts........ 104 214 .486 William Montgomery.. 24 132 5.5
William Montgomery.. 64 132 .485
Jahrell Holmes...... 134 291 .460 FIELD GOALS MADE G Made Made/G
Marcus Erves........ 49 111 .441 -----------------------------------
Hakim Ameen......... 71 163 .436 Keenan Hardy........ 24 150 6.3
Santez Bogard....... 21 53 .396 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 134 5.6
Eric Jackson........ 47 126 .373 Dejuan Watts........ 24 104 4.3
Emmanuel Jackson.... 9 29 .310 Hakim Ameen......... 24 71 3.0
William Montgomery.. 24 64 2.7
3-POINT PERCENTAGE 3FG ATT Pct 3-POINT FG ATTEMPTS G Att Att/G
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Santez Bogard....... 3 5 .600 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 149 6.2
Keenan Hardy........ 1 2 .500 Eric Jackson........ 24 98 4.1
Hakim Ameen......... 35 84 .417 Hakim Ameen......... 24 84 3.5
Eric Jackson........ 37 98 .378 William Montgomery.. 24 24 1.0
Jahrell Holmes...... 54 149 .362 Emmanuel Jackson.... 18 6 0.3
Emmanuel Jackson.... 2 6 .333
William Montgomery.. 7 24 .292 3-POINT FGS MADE G Made Made/G
Dejuan Watts........ 0 2 .000 -----------------------------------
Rashad Thompson..... 0 5 .000 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 54 2.3
Catron, Sergio...... 0 1 .000 Eric Jackson........ 24 37 1.5
Hakim Ameen......... 24 35 1.5
William Montgomery.. 24 7 0.3
Santez Bogard....... 22 3 0.1
FT PERCENTAGE FT ATT Pct FREE THROW ATTEMPTS G Att Att/G
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Eric Jackson........ 23 27 .852 Keenan Hardy........ 24 119 5.0
Emmanuel Jackson.... 17 22 .773 William Montgomery.. 24 75 3.1
Keenan Hardy........ 87 119 .731 Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 55 2.4
Hakim Ameen......... 26 36 .722 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 41 1.7
Omar Cumberbatch.... 39 55 .709 Hakim Ameen......... 24 36 1.5
Jahrell Holmes...... 29 41 .707 Marcus Erves........ 24 36 1.5
Dejuan Watts........ 17 25 .680
Rashad Thompson..... 2 3 .667 FREE THROWS MADE G Made Made/G
William Montgomery.. 48 75 .640 -----------------------------------
Marcus Erves........ 23 36 .639 Keenan Hardy........ 24 87 3.6
Contreras Thomas.... 13 22 .591 William Montgomery.. 24 48 2.0
Santez Bogard....... 9 16 .563 Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 39 1.7
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 29 1.2
Hakim Ameen......... 24 26 1.1
REBOUNDS G Reb Reb/G ASSISTS G No. A/G
----------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Keenan Hardy........ 24 227 9.5 William Montgomery.. 24 96 4.0
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 98 4.1 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 41 1.7
Dejuan Watts........ 24 94 3.9 Santez Bogard....... 22 39 1.8
Marcus Erves........ 24 90 3.8 Hakim Ameen......... 24 34 1.4
Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 79 3.4 Emmanuel Jackson.... 18 30 1.7
REBOUND AVERAGE G Reb Avg/G STEALS G No. S/G
----------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Keenan Hardy........ 24 227 9.5 Keenan Hardy........ 24 31 1.3
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 98 4.1 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 23 1.0
Dejuan Watts........ 24 94 3.9 William Montgomery.. 24 19 0.8
Marcus Erves........ 24 90 3.8 Hakim Ameen......... 24 18 0.8
Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 79 3.4 Dejuan Watts........ 24 14 0.6
. BLOCKED SHOTS G No. Blk/G
Keenan Hardy........ 24 18 0.8
Marcus Erves........ 24 13 0.5
Dejuan Watts........ 24 10 0.4
Jahrell Holmes...... 24 7 0.3
Omar Cumberbatch.... 23 6 0.3
Now... put that on the athletic's website along with the results and that would really be nice!!! Finding Rust information is harder than finding a needle in a haystack!
Sorry to be the antagonist, but, although 16 ppg and 9 rpg are good numbers and 14.6 and 4 are ok, I wouldnt say that those types of numbers would get you on the list, especially for a team that is barely over 0.500. With some players you could make the argument that they dont put up huge numbers because they are on a very good team, but when your team is barely winning more than half their games, you really need to be putting up huge numbers to get consideration, from my past observations (I am obviously not a voter). If you take a look on the preseason list, every player on there is either putting up huge numbers, is a leader on a top national contender, or both.
The NCAA site says Hardy as 194th in the country in scoring, 11 in FG%, and 42 in rebounds. Meanwhile, it says that Holmes is 313th in scoring (14.6) and 2nd in 3s per game (6.2). I dont know if its just me, but Holmes numbers dont make sense. If he is making 6.2 3s per game, that would be at least 18.6 ppg, but his ppg number listed in the stats provided and on the NCAA website are 14.6 ppg. So clearly there is something wrong there.
Wow-- :o -- results from every Rust College game, category leaders, complete stats (for two players, at least), all in one place at one time....
I feel a little like a man who's been starving in the desert for 10 years, surviving on the occasional beetle or blade of grass, who suddenly finds himself at a 24-hour White Castle with a $50 bill. Can't...eat...another...mmph...okay...maybe...(burp)...just...one...more...
Quote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 10:24:42 AM
Sorry to be the antagonist, but, although 16 ppg and 9 rpg are good numbers and 14.6 and 4 are ok, I wouldnt say that those types of numbers would get you on the list, especially for a team that is barely over 0.500. With some players you could make the argument that they dont put up huge numbers because they are on a very good team, but when your team is barely winning more than half their games, you really need to be putting up huge numbers to get consideration, from my past observations (I am obviously not a voter). If you take a look on the preseason list, every player on there is either putting up huge numbers, is a leader on a top national contender, or both.
The NCAA site says Hardy as 194th in the country in scoring, 11 in FG%, and 42 in rebounds. Meanwhile, it says that Holmes is 313th in scoring (14.6) and 2nd in 3s per game (6.2). I dont know if its just me, but Holmes numbers dont make sense. If he is making 6.2 3s per game, that would be at least 18.6 ppg, but his ppg number listed in the stats provided and on the NCAA website are 14.6 ppg. So clearly there is something wrong there.
I believe that the stat you are wondering about is 3s attempted per a game, not 3s made.
3-POINT PERCENTAGE 3FG ATT Pct 3-POINT FG ATTEMPTS G Att Att/G
---------------------------------- -----------------------------------
Santez Bogard....... 3 5 .600 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 149 6.2
Keenan Hardy........ 1 2 .500 Eric Jackson........ 24 98 4.1
Hakim Ameen......... 35 84 .417 Hakim Ameen......... 24 84 3.5
Eric Jackson........ 37 98 .378 William Montgomery.. 24 24 1.0
Jahrell Holmes...... 54 149 .362 Emmanuel Jackson.... 18 6 0.3
Emmanuel Jackson.... 2 6 .333
William Montgomery.. 7 24 .292 3-POINT FGS MADE G Made Made/G
Dejuan Watts........ 0 2 .000 -----------------------------------
Rashad Thompson..... 0 5 .000 Jahrell Holmes...... 24 54 2.3
Catron, Sergio...... 0 1 .000 Eric Jackson........ 24 37 1.5
Hakim Ameen......... 24 35 1.5
William Montgomery.. 24 7 0.3
Santez Bogard....... 22 3 0.1
You'll see that he makes 2.3 threes a game.
I think the site that you are looking at has that number mixed up.
Thanks, the official NCAA stats (http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB) has it mxed up then:
NCAA® Men's Basketball
Division III
Three-Point Field Goals Per Game
Through Games 02/22/2009
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G 3FG 3PG
1 John Grotberg, Grinnell Sr. 6-2 G 23 145 6.3
2 Jahrell Holmes, Rust So. 6-2 G 24 149 6.2
3 Bobby Long, Grinnell Sr. 6-0 G 23 115 5.0
4 Justin Woodworth, Salve Regina Sr. 6-3 G 24 104 4.3
5 Kyle Plath, Wis. Lutheran Sr. 6-4 G 25 106 4.2
6 Eric Jackson, Rust Jr. 6-2 G 24 98 4.1
7 Anthony Passalacqua, Stevens Institute Sr. 6-0 G 25 97 3.9
8 Chris Hanson, Daniel Webster So. 6-2 G 24 91 3.8
Kyle Winters, Maryville (Mo.) Jr. 6-0 G 24 91 3.8
10 Glenn Washington, Cabrini So. 6-3 G 21 75 3.6
11 Stephen Harris, Cazenovia Sr. 6-0 G 25 89 3.6
12 Hakim Ameen, Rust Jr. 5-11 G 24 84 3.5
Jimmy Bartolotta, MIT Sr. 6-4 G 24 84 3.5
14 Wes Weir, Trine Jr. 6-1 G 25 86 3.4
15 Tommy Baro, Blackburn Sr. 6-2 F 24 81 3.4
They have him down as making 149, not attempting.
Quote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 12:45:57 PM
Thanks, the official NCAA stats (http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB) has it mxed up then:
NCAA® Men's Basketball
Division III
Three-Point Field Goals Per Game
Through Games 02/22/2009
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G 3FG 3PG
1 John Grotberg, Grinnell Sr. 6-2 G 23 145 6.3
2 Jahrell Holmes, Rust So. 6-2 G 24 149 6.2
3 Bobby Long, Grinnell Sr. 6-0 G 23 115 5.0
4 Justin Woodworth, Salve Regina Sr. 6-3 G 24 104 4.3
5 Kyle Plath, Wis. Lutheran Sr. 6-4 G 25 106 4.2
6 Eric Jackson, Rust Jr. 6-2 G 24 98 4.1
7 Anthony Passalacqua, Stevens Institute Sr. 6-0 G 25 97 3.9
8 Chris Hanson, Daniel Webster So. 6-2 G 24 91 3.8
Kyle Winters, Maryville (Mo.) Jr. 6-0 G 24 91 3.8
10 Glenn Washington, Cabrini So. 6-3 G 21 75 3.6
11 Stephen Harris, Cazenovia Sr. 6-0 G 25 89 3.6
12 Hakim Ameen, Rust Jr. 5-11 G 24 84 3.5
Jimmy Bartolotta, MIT Sr. 6-4 G 24 84 3.5
14 Wes Weir, Trine Jr. 6-1 G 25 86 3.4
15 Tommy Baro, Blackburn Sr. 6-2 F 24 81 3.4
They have him down as making 149, not attempting.
Actually, now that I look at the stats, there are 3 Rust players ranked in the top 12 that shouldnt be. As you have pointed out, all 3 of those figures are 3-point attempts per game not makes. Just as a point of comparison, John Grotberg averages 16.2 3s attempted per game and makes 6.5.
So maybe Rust provided the wrong info ???
Quote from: frodotwo on February 25, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
So maybe Rust provided the wrong info ???
Sounds that way, they must have entered the data incorrectly or in an incorrect format.
I just checked and the data has been wrong the last 4 weeks (weeks of 2/1, 2/8, 2/15, and 2/22), it appears that prior to that it was entered correctly because no Rust players appear on the top 3 pointers made list on the 1/25 report.
How does Brandon Shelton of the UMD Corsairs fare?
18.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg, team ranked 19th nationally
I am sure if the SID nominates him he will be considered. If I remember correctly, maybe Pat or somebody could correct me if I am wrong, there is a regional nomination process and then from that pool, players are selected for the all-region teams (the number of all-region teams in a given region is based on the number of teams in that region, I believe, the largest region being the northeast). Then those on the all-region teams are considered for the all-america teams.
As for Shelton, I dont know about enough about him specifically, or the specifics of the process to make a good estimate. I just know that, in the case of the Rust players, decent numbers on a mediocre team wont make you an all-american, just from past obervations. For example, Jimmy Bartolotta averaged 21 ppg, 9 rbg, 4.5 apg, and 2 spg for an MIT team that went 14-13 2 years ago, when he was a sophomore, and he did not make all-america that year. Obviously he has kept it up and he was on one of the teams last season and made preseason this year, but just because you put up really good numbers doesnt automatically make you an all-american.
No u was lookin at them wrong cuz Holmes do take 6 3s a game but only make 2 a game
Quote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: frodotwo on February 25, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
So maybe Rust provided the wrong info ???
Sounds that way, they must have entered the data incorrectly or in an incorrect format.
I just checked and the data has been wrong the last 4 weeks (weeks of 2/1, 2/8, 2/15, and 2/22), it appears that prior to that it was entered correctly because no Rust players appear on the top 3 pointers made list on the 1/25 report.
#23 Jahrell Holmes
|---TOTAL---| |---3-PTS---| |----REBOUNDS----|
Opponent Date GS Min FG-FGA Pct 3FG-FGA Pct FT-FTA Pct Off Def Tot Avg PF FO A TO Blk Stl Pts Avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
at BLUE MOUNTAIN COLLE 11/18/28 * 28 15-26 .577 4-9 .444 6-8 .750 1 3 4 4.0 2 0 0 3 0 2 40 40.0
at SEWANEE 11/21/08 * 37 9-20 .450 3-10 .300 0-0 .000 1 3 4 4.0 0 0 1 0 1 2 21 30.5
vs Miss. College 11/22/89 * 23 5-12 .417 2-4 .500 0-0 .000 1 2 3 3.7 2 0 0 1 0 1 12 24.3
at Huntingdon College 11/25/08 * 34 8-16 .500 3-6 .500 3-3 1.000 0 5 5 4.0 3 0 2 3 1 1 22 23.8
vs Wesley College 11/29/08 * 32 4-9 .444 2-6 .333 0-0 .000 1 3 4 4.0 1 0 0 3 1 1 10 21.0
at Millsaps 11/30/08 * 26 3-9 .333 3-7 .429 1-2 .500 1 3 4 4.0 2 0 4 3 0 0 10 19.2
at Hendrix College 12/02/08 * 29 2-6 .333 1-3 .333 0-0 .000 0 5 5 4.1 0 0 2 3 2 1 5 17.1
PIEDMONT COLLEGE 12/6/08 * 30 8-15 .533 4-10 .400 2-5 .400 4 4 8 4.6 3 0 2 4 0 2 22 17.8
at Webster 12/6/08 * 34 6-14 .429 2-7 .286 0-0 .000 0 1 1 4.2 0 0 4 1 1 1 14 17.3
at Fontbonne Universit 12/8/08 * 28 7-17 .412 3-9 .333 0-0 .000 2 0 2 4.0 1 0 4 1 0 0 17 17.3
at RHODES09 12/10/08 * 15 4-8 .500 2-4 .500 0-0 .000 1 1 2 3.8 5 1 2 0 0 1 10 16.6
MARYVILLE COLLEGE SCOT 12/13/08 * 28 5-10 .500 0-3 .000 1-2 .500 0 4 4 3.8 2 0 4 1 0 2 11 16.2
LAGRANGE COLLEGE PANTH 12/15/08 * 27 5-10 .500 4-6 .667 1-2 .500 0 4 4 3.8 4 0 2 3 0 0 15 16.1
BIRMINGHAM SOUTHERN 12/19/08 * 33 7-16 .438 2-5 .400 5-7 .714 0 5 5 3.9 3 0 5 1 0 0 21 16.4
HUNTINGTON COLLEGE 01/07/09 20 4-10 .400 2-7 .286 1-1 1.000 1 2 3 3.9 1 0 1 1 0 0 11 16.1
at Maryville College S 1-18-09 * 27 5-9 .556 1-4 .250 0-0 .000 1 2 3 3.8 0 0 0 3 0 0 11 15.8
at Piedmont College 01-25-09 * 36 6-12 .500 2-4 .500 4-4 1.000 1 9 10 4.2 1 0 1 2 0 3 18 15.9
at LaGrange College 1/26/09 * 31 2-9 .222 0-5 .000 0-0 .000 1 2 3 4.1 0 0 1 2 0 2 4 15.2
CONCORDIA COLLEGE HORN 02/02/09 * 25 2-10 .200 1-7 .143 0-0 .000 1 2 3 4.1 2 0 1 1 0 1 5 14.7
PHILANDER SMITH COLLEG 02/04/09 * 31 7-12 .583 3-8 .375 2-3 .667 0 2 2 4.0 0 0 1 0 0 0 19 14.9
at LeMoyne-Owen 02/07/09 * 32 7-13 .538 4-8 .500 0-0 .000 0 3 3 3.9 2 0 1 1 0 0 18 15.0
PHILANDER SMITH PANTHE 02/13/09 14 3-6 .500 1-4 .250 3-4 .750 2 2 4 3.9 0 0 1 0 1 1 10 14.8
at Birmingham-Southern 2/18/09 * 32 5-10 .500 2-6 .333 0-0 .000 1 5 6 4.0 2 0 0 1 0 2 12 14.7
vs Crichton College 02-19-09 28 5-12 .417 3-7 .429 0-0 .000 1 5 6 4.1 0 0 2 2 0 0 13 14.6
Totals......................... 21 680 134-291 .460 54-149 .362 29-41 .707 21 77 98 4.1 36 1 41 40 7 23 351 14.6
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 28.3
Points/game: 14.6
FG Pct: 46.0
3FG Pct: 36.2
FT Pct: 70.7
Rebounds/game: 4.1
Assists/game: 1.7
Turnovers/game: 1.7
Assist/turnover ratio: 1.0
Steals/game: 1.0
Blocks/game: 0.3
No offense but All-american's stats usually don't drop off that badly from the start of the season.
You're persistent but these just aren't all-american numbers.
Quote from: RustCollege on February 25, 2009, 04:28:06 PM
No u was lookin at them wrong cuz Holmes do take 6 3s a game but only make 2 a gameQuote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: frodotwo on February 25, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
So maybe Rust provided the wrong info ???
Sounds that way, they must have entered the data incorrectly or in an incorrect format.
I just checked and the data has been wrong the last 4 weeks (weeks of 2/1, 2/8, 2/15, and 2/22), it appears that prior to that it was entered correctly because no Rust players appear on the top 3 pointers made list on the 1/25 report.
The NCAA official stats has Holmes, Jackson, and Ameen ranked top 12 in 3 pointers MADE per game (the NCAA does not publish rankings for 3-pointers attempted per game). Go to the website and check yourself:
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB
You need to select Division III, Through Games 2/22/2009, and then Individual Statistics -> Three Point Field Goals Per Game
Until 1/25/2009 none of those 3 appeared in the rankings and the last 4 weeks all 3 players have been in the top 12. There is clearly an error and inconsistency with the data you provided.
Yea u were right they made mistake on dat one but as far as what type of player Keenan Hardy who is only a fr at 6'4 playing forward and J. Holmes who is a So are both under rate u just need to cum watch them play so u can see what im talkin about so I will tell u this just watch out for Rust College cuz they have a very young team with only 2 Sr they lost who didn't make impact so they went 13-11 but watch out for 2009-10 and will see
Quote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 06:16:06 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on February 25, 2009, 04:28:06 PM
No u was lookin at them wrong cuz Holmes do take 6 3s a game but only make 2 a gameQuote from: hugenerd on February 25, 2009, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: frodotwo on February 25, 2009, 12:57:02 PM
So maybe Rust provided the wrong info ???
Sounds that way, they must have entered the data incorrectly or in an incorrect format.
I just checked and the data has been wrong the last 4 weeks (weeks of 2/1, 2/8, 2/15, and 2/22), it appears that prior to that it was entered correctly because no Rust players appear on the top 3 pointers made list on the 1/25 report.
The NCAA official stats has Holmes, Jackson, and Ameen ranked top 12 in 3 pointers MADE per game (the NCAA does not publish rankings for 3-pointers attempted per game). Go to the website and check yourself:
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB
You need to select Division III, Through Games 2/22/2009, and then Individual Statistics -> Three Point Field Goals Per Game
Until 1/25/2009 none of those 3 appeared in the rankings and the last 4 weeks all 3 players have been in the top 12. There is clearly an error and inconsistency with the data you provided.
Jason Foster of Puget Sound was a pre-season all-american selection (3rd team, I think). I am wondering if he did enough to earn a spot at the end of the year. Of course I think he did, but there is an obvious bias there, lol. :D ;D :)
Here is the press release from ESPN/CoSida:
http://www.cosida.com/documents/2009/2/25/2008-09MBBAAATeams.pdf
Jimmy Bartolotta, MIT, was named the Academic All-America of the Year today.
Kent Raymond also made the first team (Wheaton, IL), along with Scott Morton (SUNY Geneseo).
On the second team were: Kyle Holliday (Ohio Wesleyan), Brian Small (Suffolk, MA), and Matt Sosna (Widener).
Third team includes: Mark Carson (RIT) and Cameron Smith (WashU).
It's going to be ruined by his conference playoff game upcoming, but I thought I'd point out an interesting stat from John Grotberg.
Currently his total points and per game average for four years of basketball:
2005-2006 723/31.4
2006-2007 675/28.1
2007-2008 675/28.1
2008-2009 723/31.4
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 26, 2009, 11:30:54 AM
It's going to be ruined by his conference playoff game upcoming, but I thought I'd point out an interesting stat from John Grotberg.
Currently his total points and per game average for four years of basketball:
2005-2006 723/31.4
2006-2007 675/28.1
2007-2008 675/28.1
2008-2009 723/31.4
Thats a very nice palindrome. Demetri Martin would definitely approve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetri_martin)
Ha. Very nice. He should sit out this weekend's games.
Signed,
Hannah Neven
Something tells me that noone from Rust College will be on the Academic all-american teams....just a hunch ;)
Grotberg got 31 tonight and at least one more game.
Anyone have the top ten all-time d3 scorers? I know he doesn't have much shot at the top two, but he's got to have #3 in his sights, right?
He's at 2827 right now.
#2 is 2898
#1 is 2940
I found it; he's already 100 points past #3.
So unless he can score 72 points tomorrow or GC wins, he'll finish at #3 all time.
He's also now #1 all time in 3pt FGs made.
Kent Raymond should be unanimous player of the year....
What he is doing tonight is unfricking believable....
Quote from: larry_u on February 27, 2009, 10:28:42 PM
Kent Raymond should be unanimous player of the year....
What he is doing tonight is unfricking believable....
True enough. The end of the first half was ridiculous.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 27, 2009, 10:37:44 PM
Quote from: larry_u on February 27, 2009, 10:28:42 PM
Kent Raymond should be unanimous player of the year....
What he is doing tonight is unfricking believable....
True enough. The end of the first half was ridiculous.
You two guys just don't watch Raymond enough.
It's pretty much another day at the office for him.
Quote from: larry_u on February 27, 2009, 04:08:16 PM
Something tells me that noone from Rust College will be on the Academic all-american teams....just a hunch ;)
Plus k
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 27, 2009, 10:59:54 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 27, 2009, 10:37:44 PM
Quote from: larry_u on February 27, 2009, 10:28:42 PM
Kent Raymond should be unanimous player of the year....
What he is doing tonight is unfricking believable....
True enough. The end of the first half was ridiculous.
You two guys just don't watch Raymond enough.
It's pretty much another day at the office for him.
Ain't that the truth. He single handedly destroyed Withworth last year. The kid's the real deal and has been doing it consistently.
Let me throw out another name - Mark Carson of Rochester Institute of Technology. Stats:
Conference rank National Rank
Rebounds per game 14.3 1 1
PPG 19.7 2 50
FGP 61.4% 1 15
Blocked Shots/g 1.7 1 50
Empire 8 First Team All Conference, Empire 8 Tournament MVP, Chase Tournament First Team All-Star, 3rd Team Academic All American, Twice Rochester Area College Athelete of the week, 3 times Empire 8 Player of the Week
Quote from: RITFAN on March 02, 2009, 04:32:08 PM
Let me throw out another name - Mark Carson of Rochester Institute of Technology. Stats:
Conference rank National Rank
Rebounds per game 14.3 1 1
PPG 19.7 2 50
FGP 61.4% 1 15
Blocked Shots/g 1.7 1 50
Empire 8 First Team All Conference, Empire 8 Tournament MVP, Chase Tournament First Team All-Star, 3rd Team Academic All American, Twice Rochester Area College Athelete of the week, 3 times Empire 8 Player of the Week
Good thing that you threw out his name
after I'd drafted him in the D3 tourney fantasy draft.
Tell Carson to lay off the garbage plates & Genny Cream this week. I need a big showing from him this weekend against Salem State (and, I hope, either Virginia Wesleyan or Widener).
MIT on the front page of ESPN Page 2:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/index
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=darcy/090305
Jimmy Bartolotta wins the Jostens trophy. That makes Bartolotta 2 for 2 on the hybrid player of the year/academic/service awards (he was also named CoSida Academic All-America of the Year).
It will be interesting to see how he fares in the purely basketball awards. He is the leading candidate for NE Player of the Year (after talking amongst some NE basketball people, not just my own opinion). He was also tabbed preseason second team all-american and his performance this season should have done nothing but improve his status for selection to the All-American team. Congrats on a great season to Bartolotta and MIT.
I think Aaron Thompson's weekend performance gets him in the picture for second team Al-American.Well, that coupled with his selection as UAA POY. Another weekend like this past one and he's a lock.
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 10, 2009, 06:24:26 AM
I think Aaron Thompson's weekend performance gets him in the picture for second team Al-American.Well, that coupled with his selection as UAA POY. Another weekend like this past one and he's a lock.
After the way he performed for my fantasy team I'm lobbying for the 1st team. ;D
I would think Brandon Shelton from umass dartmouth would make one of the all american teams.
17.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, his team has 27 wins and they are in the sweet 16.
I have a question for anyone who knows, but maybe Pat would be able to answer best. When you are selecting All-America teams, how strict are you with the G/F/C classifications? For example, in the preseason Bartolotta was listed as a guard on the 2nd team. However, he played the entire season as MIT's starting small forward (Brad Gampel started at the 1 and Jamie Karraker at the 2). Bartolotta also played some 4, guarding Craig Johnson against Coast Guard, for example. Would he be eligible for a forward spot on an all-america team? In other words, would Raymond, Wallis, and Bartolotta all be able to make 1st team, or would one have to be on the second-team?
If I remember correctly about the process, their position listed on the roster or how they are submitted helps with the F/G decision.
Doesn't it all depend on who gets nominated for all-region teams first?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 10, 2009, 06:09:05 PM
Doesn't it all depend on who gets nominated for all-region teams first?
Yeah, you have to be on the All-Region team to be selected All-American, but I think those three are pretty safe bets to make their respective teams.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 10, 2009, 10:28:57 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 10, 2009, 06:09:05 PM
Doesn't it all depend on who gets nominated for all-region teams first?
Yeah, you have to be on the All-Region team to be selected All-American, but I think those three are pretty safe bets to make their respective teams.
There are going to be some guards left off the first team in the Midwest. I think that will limit who makes first team all american.
Now that we have All-Region teams, we can begin serious discussion about who will be unveiled on the All-American team this weekend.
I don't know if they force players into the traditional 2-2-1 formation, but I think we have to go with three guards this year:
G - Kent Raymond
G - Jimmy Bartolotta
G - Sean Burton
F - Jesse Reimink
C - Jeff Skemp
(Jean-Baptist for Burton, if they go with two forwards, instead)
2nd Team:
G - Myles McKay
G - Rashawn Johnson
F - Richard Jean-Baptiste
F - Brent Ruch
C - Tyler Sanborn
(I'll admit, that second team is just grasping at straws, for the most part).
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 18, 2009, 12:24:01 AM
Now that we have All-Region teams, we can begin serious discussion about who will be unveiled on the All-American team this weekend.
I don't know if they force players into the traditional 2-2-1 formation, but I think we have to go with three guards this year:
G - Kent Raymond
G - Jimmy Bartolotta
G - Sean Burton
F - Jesse Reimink
C - Jeff Skemp
(Jean-Baptist for Burton, if they go with two forwards, instead)
2nd Team:
G - Myles McKay
G - Rashawn Johnson
F - Richard Jean-Baptiste
F - Brent Ruch
C - Tyler Sanborn
(I'll admit, that second team is just grasping at straws, for the most part).
Last year's 1st Team All Americans were 3 guards, Andrew Olsen, Kent Raymond, and James Cooper, 1 forward Troy Ruths and center Ben Strong. So it would seem they don't necessarily have to be the 2-2-1 format. Quite a few of this year's All Region teams also don't follow the 2-2-1 format, most notably the Midwest All Region team with 3 guards.
Can't argue with anyone on your list, and fortunately their are 4 AA teams and honorable mention picks so another 15 players will get honored. Hard to leave Aaron Thompson and Steve Djurickovic off just to name a couple more.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 18, 2009, 12:24:01 AM
Now that we have All-Region teams, we can begin serious discussion about who will be unveiled on the All-American team this weekend.
I don't know if they force players into the traditional 2-2-1 formation, but I think we have to go with three guards this year:
G - Kent Raymond
G - Jimmy Bartolotta
G - Sean Burton
F - Jesse Reimink
C - Jeff Skemp
(Jean-Baptist for Burton, if they go with two forwards, instead)
2nd Team:
G - Myles McKay
G - Rashawn Johnson
F - Richard Jean-Baptiste
F - Brent Ruch
C - Tyler Sanborn
(I'll admit, that second team is just grasping at straws, for the most part).
A fine list, but you'd have to switch Sanborn and Skemp around to get any accuracy. ;-)
I hope this is an appropriate location for this. I would like to address this to the AA voters. For consideration a player from one of the smaller conferences, that may be overlooked. I guess this is like stumping for your candidate.
Brian Fogerty – Fontbonne University, Senior, Forward
Conference- SLIAC
'08-'09 stats
27 games - 19.8 ppg., 10.6 rpg., 58.6% FG and 74.3% FT
19 double-doubles
11 games 20 (or more) pts. and 10 (or more) rebounds.
SLIAC All-Conference – ( 3 ) '07 1st Team, '08 1st Team and '09 1st Team
SLIAC Player of the Year – ( 2 ) '08 and '09
SLIAC Scoring Leader – ( 2 ) '08 and '09
D3Hoops All Region Midwest – ( 2 ) '08 3rd Team and '09 1st Team ( only forward on 1st team )
* NABC All District Midwest – (2) '08 2nd Team and '09
* DIII News Pre Season AA – (2) '08 and '09
Fontbonne Career Scoring Record 1758 pts. First Griffin with 1500 pts and 750 rebs.
Fourth on the All Time SLIAC scoring list
Brian has been one of the keys to Fontbonne's 3 straight trips to the NCAA Tournament. Last year they became the first team in conference history to win back to back AQ's.
Has averaged almost 20 pts. on a team that features three other players averaging in mid double figures. This season his rebounds per game are even more impressive, considering one of his teammates was a two time conference leader and this year the other player average over 9 per game.
Key games @ Wash U. 20 pts. and 9 rebounds
SLIAC Conference Championship game vs. Westminster (19-5) 24 pts. and 14 reb
SLIAC Conference Tourney Championship game vs. Westminster (20-6) 26 and 10
@ Wheaton NCAA 1st rd. 16 points and 10 rebounds.
I think it is definately worth the voters time to take a look at this young man, for a spot somewhere on an AA list.
(* I know we have discussed the validity of these.)
Thanks for the use of this space.
Quote from: fcnews on March 19, 2009, 07:30:32 PM
Key games @ Wash U. 20 pts. and 9 rebounds
@ Wheaton NCAA 1st rd. 16 points and 10 rebounds.
These two lines are really important to us.
NABC all-region teams were released today:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/D3all-district.pdf
Wow. No offense to Mr. MIT but the D3 Player of the Year is Kent Raymond. No question in my mind. If he plays in MIT's league he'd put up even better numbers than he put up in the much harder CCIW. Way to go fellas.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 21, 2009, 06:08:11 PM
Wow. No offense to Mr. MIT but the D3 Player of the Year is Kent Raymond. No question in my mind. If he plays in MIT's league he'd put up even better numbers than he put up in the much harder CCIW. Way to go fellas.
Have you every seen Bartolotta play? In other words, are making an actual intelligent comment based on some kind of research or observation, or are you just talking out of your you know what? I have seen Raymond play at least 3 times via stream this season and my opinion is that there is not much of a difference between the two in terms of basketball skill. I also never said Raymond doesnt deserve the award, he was a great player on a great team, but when you look at what Bartolotta did for MIT, you cant really ignore that either.
Your argument can go both ways by the way. If Bartolotta played with an All-American center, he probably wouldnt be double and triple teamed every time he took a dribble, so he might put up better numbers.
With all that said, I have no idea who won the award because I was travelling all day and didnt get a chance to listen to the broadcast, but whoever won I am sure they were deserving. All I was trying to say was that I didnt think it was a one horse race, I was simply stating that he should be considered. If Raymond won, I feel that he deserved it (and the same can be said for Bartolotta).
Quote from: Titan Q on March 21, 2009, 02:42:50 PM
Congratulations to the CCIW players on the D3hoops.com 2008-09 All-American team...
1st Team
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (Sr)
2nd Team
Brent Ruch, Elmhurst (Sr)
3rd Team
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage (So)
The complete 1st Team...
G Kent Raymond, Wheaton
G Jimmy Bartolatta, M.I.T.
G Aaron Thompson, Wash U
F Jesse Reimink, Hope
C Jeff Skemp, UW-Platteville
The D3hoops.com Player of the Year is M.I.T. guard Jimmy Bartolatta.
(Full teams will be posted later.)
Well I did some more research, and I am glad someone besides myself feels that a national POY can come from a non-BCS conference (or the d3 equivalent).
Quote from: hugenerd on March 21, 2009, 11:15:30 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 21, 2009, 06:08:11 PM
Wow. No offense to Mr. MIT but the D3 Player of the Year is Kent Raymond. No question in my mind. If he plays in MIT's league he'd put up even better numbers than he put up in the much harder CCIW. Way to go fellas.
Have you every seen Bartolotta play? In other words, are making an actual intelligent comment based on some kind of research or observation, or are you just talking out of your you know what? I have seen Raymond play at least 3 times via stream this season and my opinion is that there is not much of a difference between the two in terms of basketball skill. I also never said Raymond doesnt deserve the award, he was a great player on a great team, but when you look at what Bartolotta did for MIT, you cant really ignore that either.
Your argument can go both ways by the way. If Bartolotta played with an All-American center, he probably wouldnt be double and triple teamed every time he took a dribble, so he might put up better numbers.
With all that said, I have no idea who won the award because I was travelling all day and didnt get a chance to listen to the broadcast, but whoever won I am sure they were deserving. All I was trying to say was that I didnt think it was a one horse race, I was simply stating that he should be considered. If Raymond won, I feel that he deserved it (and the same can be said for Bartolotta).
Nope, I haven't seen him play.
And I also haven't seen MIT ranked in the top 25.
And Kent doesn't have an All-American center on his team according to the latest votes.
Bartolotta may not play with one, but he doesn't face All-Americans either in the powerhouse NEWMAC. "...but when you look at what Bartolotta did for MIT, you cant really ignore that either." MIT went 8-4 in conference. Teams in that conference finished 10-16, 12-13, 13-14, 15-13, and 14-12.
Let Kent a) play 37 minutes a night like Bartolla did and b) double and triple teams from the Babson Beavers and I think you'd notice even better numbers than those he finished with in the CCIW.
To summarize: both are good players. One plays on a better team. In a better conference. With a better record. With better opponents. With better rankings. When it comes down to it, it's like comparing apples and oranges when you compare the factors that separate the worlds of Wheaton and MIT. With better teammates, maybe Bartolotta plays less minutes and gets less stats and actually makes his teammates worthy of being discussed as All-Americans. As it is, he plays an easier schedule and more minutes to get the few stats better that he has compared to Raymond's.
All I have access to for my research and numbers are box scores and stat sheets.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 21, 2009, 11:22:39 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on March 21, 2009, 02:42:50 PM
Congratulations to the CCIW players on the D3hoops.com 2008-09 All-American team...
1st Team
Kent Raymond, Wheaton (Sr)
2nd Team
Brent Ruch, Elmhurst (Sr)
3rd Team
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage (So)
The complete 1st Team...
G Kent Raymond, Wheaton
G Jimmy Bartolatta, M.I.T.
G Aaron Thompson, Wash U
F Jesse Reimink, Hope
C Jeff Skemp, UW-Platteville
The D3hoops.com Player of the Year is M.I.T. guard Jimmy Bartolatta.
(Full teams will be posted later.)
Well I did some more research, and I am glad someone besides myself feels that a national POY can come from a non-BCS conference (or the d3 equivalent).
Not as a personal slight, but it's ironic that even your research came via a "d3 equivalent of a BCS conference." In other words, that you had to go to the CCIW board to find out what you just posted.
Congrats to all of the All-American's! Great job AT!
Probably foolishly, I will add a third CCIW-partisan voice to the discussion! :D
CCIWchamps, I've got no qualms about Jimmy Bartolotta winning the POY - his numbers are just unbelievable. I thought Kent would win it (his numbers are pretty unbelievable too!), partly because of Troy Ruths. To explain: in 2007, Ben Strong was national POY (Ruths was HM AA)); in 2008, Troy's team won it all, while Ben's team flamed out in the first round - IMO Ben was the better player, but Troy took POY. I concluded that, although an individual award, team success had a great component.
Hugenerd, CCIWchamps does have some valid arguments. Without Jimmy, MIT would not have even made the tourney, but the same can be said about Kent. When he got injured, Wheaton was undefeated and #1. While he was out (plus his first, clearly subpar, game back), they were 1-3. Without Batolotta, MIT was perhaps not even a top 100 team, but even with him they were not top 25. With Raymond, Wheaton was a definite title contender, without him they were not top 25, perhaps not even top 40.
Actually, with the team success criterion, I though Aaron Thompson might slip by both of them! ;D
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2009, 01:08:09 AM
Probably foolishly, I will add a third CCIW-partisan voice to the discussion! :D
CCIWchamps, I've got no qualms about Jimmy Bartolotta winning the POY - his numbers are just unbelievable. I thought Kent would win it (his numbers are pretty unbelievable too!), partly because of Troy Ruths. To explain: in 2007, Ben Strong was national POY (Ruths was HM AA)); in 2008, Troy's team won it all, while Ben's team flamed out in the first round - IMO Ben was the better player, but Troy took POY. I concluded that, although an individual award, team success had a great component.
Hugenerd, CCIWchamps does have some valid arguments. Without Jimmy, MIT would not have even made the tourney, but the same can be said about Kent. When he got injured, Wheaton was undefeated and #1. While he was out (plus his first, clearly subpar, game back), they were 1-3. Without Batolotta, MIT was perhaps not even a top 100 team, but even with him they were not top 25. With Raymond, Wheaton was a definite title contender, without him they were not top 25, perhaps not even top 40.
Actually, with the team success criterion, I though Aaron Thompson might slip by both of them! ;D
I appreciate your input, and I take nothing away from the winner. It's just that I can't find a strength of schedule measure for MIT to compare to Wheaton's. Both put up good numbers and are important to their team's success. But Wheaton's opposition is so much higher than MIT's that I can't understand how that isn't an automatic discussion ender. He's the best player in one of the toughest conferences in the country vs. the best player in a conference in the country. What exactly do the D3 voters look at? IMO Bartolatta's stats are not different enough from Raymond's to consider that an argument for his POY status. I'd like to hear what is.
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
Nescac1, thanks for bring up this point, I was going to bring it up but now I see you have. In fact, Bartolotta played exactly 2 games this year where teams played him straight up man, one was the Yale game and the other was a scrimmage in the preseason against Harvard. In those games Bartolotta put up 32 against Yale and 34 against Harvard (He was guarded by Jeremy Lin, who was first team all-ivy this year and 2nd team last year, he was the one who lit up BC when they upset them earlier in the year). Pretty much in every other game they threw 2 and 3 men at him everytime he touched the ball. He still put up incredible numbers.
Say what you will, but he deserves every award he gets. He had to play 40 minutes of essentially every single game this year (unless it was a blowout), injured or not, to give MIT a chance to win games. I am not in any way trying to take away from Raymond, he is an exceptional player, but I dont know how you can make any claims without seeing someone play.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2009, 01:08:09 AM
Probably foolishly, I will add a third CCIW-partisan voice to the discussion! :D
CCIWchamps, I've got no qualms about Jimmy Bartolotta winning the POY - his numbers are just unbelievable. I thought Kent would win it (his numbers are pretty unbelievable too!), partly because of Troy Ruths. To explain: in 2007, Ben Strong was national POY (Ruths was HM AA)); in 2008, Troy's team won it all, while Ben's team flamed out in the first round - IMO Ben was the better player, but Troy took POY. I concluded that, although an individual award, team success had a great component.
Hugenerd, CCIWchamps does have some valid arguments. Without Jimmy, MIT would not have even made the tourney, but the same can be said about Kent. When he got injured, Wheaton was undefeated and #1. While he was out (plus his first, clearly subpar, game back), they were 1-3. Without Batolotta, MIT was perhaps not even a top 100 team, but even with him they were not top 25. With Raymond, Wheaton was a definite title contender, without him they were not top 25, perhaps not even top 40.
Actually, with the team success criterion, I though Aaron Thompson might slip by both of them! ;D
Mr. Ypsi, I agree with your points. I am not sure when the voting was done for POY, but I think it may have helped Bartolotta's case that Raymond's team lost only one round ahead of Bartolotta's team (dont start with the bracket of death, I know they played mcu harder teams, but I am just saying in terms of teams success, one team made the 2nd round, the other made the 3rd round).
Also, when you talk about team success, you have to take into account the baseline for that team (in my opinion). Wheaton always seems to be pretty good, they have 20 win seasons, they win CCIW championships, etc. MIT, on the other hand, only had 7 players on their team this year for the last 80% of the season, they won they NEWMAC tourney for the first time ever (by the way, 2 of their conference losses were when Bartolotta was hurt or did not play, he got hurt at the end of the second Babson game and didnt play the following game vs. WPI), they won the most games in school history, and they made NCAAs for the first time ever. Regardless, I think he deserved the award and there will be some that dont agree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
"he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help" What stats specifically?
Also, I've never seen Yale play either, so here are #'s Raymond had versus All-Americans this year:
HOPE COLLEGE 12/6/08 * 34 9-14 .643 5-7 .714 11-11 1.000 0 1 1 2.7 3 0 1 1 1 0 34
at Elmhurst 2/11/09 * 35 12-21 .571 2-4 .500 3-5 .600 0 1 1 2.8 2 0 3 4 0 1 29
ELMHURST 2/28/09 * 36 6-18 .333 3-8 .375 9-10 .900 0 1 1 3.2 0 0 3 0 1 1 24
UW-PLATTEVILLE 3/7/09 * 45 8-21 .381 1-4 .250 7-8 .875 3 1 4 3.2 3 0 2 2 0 0 24
WASHINGTON UNIV. (MO 3/13/09 * 38 8-19 .421 1-5 .200 5-7 .714 0 3 3 3.1 1 0 2 3 0 0 22
Overall:Games played: 27
Minutes/game: 30.9
Points/game: 23.9
FG Pct: 49.9
3FG Pct: 37.2
FT Pct: 88.3
Rebounds/game: 3.1
Assists/game: 3.3
Turnovers/game: 1.8
Assist/turnover ratio: 1.8
Steals/game: 0.9
Blocks/game: 0.7
Quote from: hugenerd on March 22, 2009, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
Nescac1, thanks for bring up this point, I was going to bring it up but now I see you have. In fact, Bartolotta played exactly 2 games this year where teams played him straight up man, one was the Yale game and the other was a scrimmage in the preseason against Harvard. In those games Bartolotta put up 32 against Yale and 34 against Harvard (He was guarded by Jeremy Lin, who was first team all-ivy this year and 2nd team last year, he was the one who lit up BC when they upset them earlier in the year). Pretty much in every other game they threw 2 and 3 men at him everytime he touched the ball. He still put up incredible numbers.
Say what you will, but he deserves every award he gets. He had to play 40 minutes of essentially every single game this year (unless it was a blowout), injured or not, to give MIT a chance to win games. I am not in any way trying to take away from Raymond, he is an exceptional player, but I dont know how you can make any claims without seeing someone play.
1- Is there an online reference of video highlights for Bartolotta? I'd love to see some tapes. 2- Since you've seen Raymond play, how do you think he'd do if he was swapped for Bartolotta? How would Bartolotta do in Raymond's place?
Quote from: hugenerd on March 22, 2009, 09:55:02 AM
Mr. Ypsi, I agree with your points. I am not sure when the voting was done for POY, but I think it may have helped Bartolotta's case that Raymond's team lost only one round ahead of Bartolotta's team (dont start with the bracket of death, I know they played mcu harder teams, but I am just saying in terms of teams success, one team made the 2nd round, the other made the 3rd round).
Also, when you talk about team success, you have to take into account the baseline for that team (in my opinion). Wheaton always seems to be pretty good, they have 20 win seasons, they win CCIW championships, etc. MIT, on the other hand, only had 7 players on their team this year for the last 80% of the season, they won they NEWMAC tourney for the first time ever (by the way, 2 of their conference losses were when Bartolotta was hurt or did not play, he got hurt at the end of the second Babson game and didnt play the following game vs. WPI), they won the most games in school history, and they made NCAAs for the first time ever. Regardless, I think he deserved the award and there will be some that dont agree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
So we can't mention that Wheaton lost a round later to the eventual National Champions? That's somehow stricken from the argument?
I agree it probably helped Bartolotta's case.
Do you have a link to the RPI for MIT? Or at least the strength of schedule? I see Wheaton played the 5th hardest schedule but can't find MIT listed. Wheaton did not win the most games in its history, though they were ranked #1 in the country by D3hoops for the first time. They finished as the 3rd ranked team.
And yes, Wheaton has/had a great coach who has had plenty of 20 win seasons (7), and coached 10 All-Americans in 18 years. They have won their conference 3 times under Harris and the tournament 6 times. That they perennially do well should be no knock against Raymond's case. In fact, look at these numbers of Wheaton's last 5 years:
2009 26-4 (11-3)
2008 22-8 (9-5)
2007 17-9 (9-5)
2006 11-14 (7-7)
2005 20-6 (10-4)
Raymond sat out one year. Guess which one it was. Does that count as Wheaton's baseline?
What stats? Bartolotta averaged nearly four more points more per game, shot slightly better from the field and from 3 (slightly worse from the free throw line), was about the same in assists, but averaged TWICE as many rebounds, blocks, and steals. Now, Raymond played better competition, no one is doubting that, but those are also without a doubt materially better stats. Not the end all and be all of the debate, but certainly worth considering.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
Good point, nescac11 +1! :)
Massey Ratings for Wheaton IL = #295
Massey Ratings for Yale = #300 (Massey doesn't use Margin of Victory in his D-1 ratings)
Massey Ratings for UW-SP = #304
http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb
Quote from: hugenerd on March 22, 2009, 09:45:17 AM
Nescac1, thanks for bring up this point, I was going to bring it up but now I see you have. In fact, Bartolotta played exactly 2 games this year where teams played him straight up man, one was the Yale game and the other was a scrimmage in the preseason against Harvard. In those games Bartolotta put up 32 against Yale...
I looked that up, the game vs. Yale. They lost by 23.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
Two pro-Bartolotta points. First, Raymond, while clearly the focus of his team's offense, played on a deep team and was helped by several other all-conference caliber players. By the end of the year MIT played essentially a six man rotation. He played without anyone else who has ever made an all-region team. All but one of MIT's starters this year other than Bartolotta would have had a hard time cracking Wheaton's rotation. So while he faced worse competition, he also put up better stats despite a heck of a lot less help -- if teams focused too heavily on Raymond, other guys on Wheaton were capable of killing them. Also, I feel fairly confident that Yale would have performed reasonably well in the CCIW this year :). Check out Bartolotta's stats vs. Yale:
http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/yalemit.html
I'm looking at this rebuttle more, and I'm not sure if there's evidence there that you want to rely on.
First of all, 3 other players on MIT average double figures in points. Wheaton has 2 other than Raymond. So when you say "Wheaton has other players capable of killing you..." isn't that even more true of MIT on a regular basis? Are Johnson, Soumare, and Karraker a bunch of shlubs or what?
Secondly, Bartolotta put up 32 points, 3 blocks, and 3 steals in 35 minutes against a team in a 23 point loss. How many of those stats came against Yale's bench? I see their starters played a max of 25 minutes. I guess he played fantastically enough to keep it within 25?
Third, based on the Massey Ratings provided below, Yale isn't even as high as Wheaton. They might've played well in the CCIW, but Wheaton would've beaten them... meaning Wheaton would likely have beaten MIT by even more than the 23 point spread Yale put on them. Granted this is all theoretically and based on stats, but look at the D3 ratings: Wheaton #3, MIT #94. CCIW #1, NEWMAC #17. Wheaton's Schedule Played #7, MIT #177.
See my next post for more...
Quote from: nescac1 on March 22, 2009, 02:18:55 PM
What stats? Bartolotta averaged nearly four more points more per game, shot slightly better from the field and from 3 (slightly worse from the free throw line), was about the same in assists, but averaged TWICE as many rebounds, blocks, and steals. Now, Raymond played better competition, no one is doubting that, but those are also without a doubt materially better stats. Not the end all and be all of the debate, but certainly worth considering.
Here's argument addressing your points (noted above):
1- PPG: You left out the extra 6 minutes a game Bartolotta played (I won't even mention that those are 6 minutes more vs. NEWMAC). In fact, this changes the stats across the board, though most dramatically in PPG. Long story short is with an extra 6 minutes, Raymond would've found at least 2 more made baskets. Here are Raymond's numbers and Bartolotta at 36.7 min/game (Raymond played 27 games, Bartolotta 29):
PPG: KR = 28.4 JB = 27.6 RB/G: KR = 3.7 JB = 6.2 ASST/G: KR = 3.9 JB = 2.9 STL/G: KR = 1.1 JB = 2.0 BLK/G: KR = 0.8 JB = 1.4
TO/G: KR = 2.1 JB = 2.4 PF/G: KR = 2.1 JB = 2.5
1b- "but [JB] averaged TWICE as many rebounds, blocks, and steals" Look at those in a per game breakdown. And consider another stat you left off, the ASST:TO ratio- KR= 1.95 JB = 1.22
2- FG%: KR =
49.9% JB =
50.2% Seriously?
3- 3PT%: KR = 37.2%
JB = 43.6% This is is valid.
What I wonder is how JB could've attempted 218 3's with the "constant double and triple teaming and constantly being the focus" of opponents' game plans (Raymond often shot over double teams or had to pass on the 3 b/c of pressure- he attempted 156). Either JB's shooting 3's with 6 hands in his face and still making 43%, or he has teammates that require some defensive attention, or he's playing people incapable of defending 20 feet away from the basket. So is he an amazing shooter, playing on a better balanced team than people are saying, or are the opponents just terrible?
4- FT%: KR =
88.3% JB = 83.7%
5- "Now, Raymond played better competition, no one is doubting that, but those are also without a doubt materially better stats. " Those "materially better stats" are really just rebounds/game (+2.5). Then +6% on 3's and +.09 Steals and +0.6 Blocks/game.
Now consider that KR puts up equal and better numbers in every other category. What you are underestimating is the difference between the strength of opponents both players face: National Rank:
CCIW #1, NEWMAC #17. Wheaton's Schedule Played #7, MIT #177. That's where my confusion comes in. In looking at Jimmy Bartolotta's stats, I can see he's a very good player. But having watched Raymond play and seen who he's squared off against, when I imagine what he could do in the NEWMAC, and what he would
have to do playing on only a 6 man rotation, his stats would be off the charts. That's where my confusion comes in with this whole thing.
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
So might seeing the whining by Raymond in person would soften my impression of him?
I think that I would be even more put-off by him in that case. ;)
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
I can say with certainty that on-court demeanor was not a factor. Nor was off-court demeanor, to be honest. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2009, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
I can say with certainty that on-court demeanor was not a factor. Nor was off-court demeanor, to be honest. :)
Thanks. :)
Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. ::)
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
Here's a thought, take you're own advice and "maybe" Bartolotta had a little bit better season this year.
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. ::)
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
Here's a thought, take you're own advice and "maybe" Bartolotta had a little bit better season this year.
I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats. I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips.
I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam? And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference. He's a very special talent who changes games. That Bartolotta's stats are equal to Raymond's (or above them without adjusting) is overcome by the difference of opposition. A few rebounds and a steal don't overcome the difference between the 177th hardest schedule and the 7th hardest. It doesn't take a pro-CCIW fan to see that.
Maybe if JB put up 32 a game or averaged a double double I would concede. But 27 and 6 in NEWMAC is a lot different than facing Elmhurst, Wash U or UWP. Even Mr. Neutral Coleman should know that. I guess Raymond's only shortcoming is playing in too good of a conference?
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
I stated up front that all I'm going off of is stats. I also accept links to any online MIT game tapes or Bartolotta highlight clips. I assume someone at MIT knows how to run a DVCam?
CCIWchamps, as a fellow Wheaton alum your arrogance is nauseating.
I understand your desire to standup for Raymond. He was an outstanding basketball player and worthy of POY consideration. However... no matter how hard you argue, nothing will change. Instead of fanning the flame and insulting anyone who disagrees with you, why don't you appreciate the 4 years Kent Raymond and the Wheaton team have given us.
If you haven't seen much of Bartolotta in person how can you possibly have enough context to say he is not as worthy as Raymond. Stats? Stats aren't everything and conjecture is lame. Those who have a greater context and understanding of all D3 have decided Bartolotta is the POY. I would have loved to have seen Raymond win this honor, just as I would have loved to see Wheaton get to Salem (particularly with how WashU went on to win it all). But in either case, it didn't happen.
Time to move on and stop reflecting poorly on the institution you are affiliated with.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.
You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.
..........and the above statement is pretty much false.
One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No. The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.
You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.
..........and the above statement is pretty much false. One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No. The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.
You are correct. I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement. I agree with your correction.
As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC. Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of. I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate. You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good." I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good. I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond. Which is WHY I am arguing.
You all sound like you have to choose one as "best" and send the other one to slave away in the salt mines.
D3 basketball was blessed to have two incredibly talented guards this year.
I think Bartolotta did more with less - that is, he didn't have the same caliber of team around him, which meant every defensive focus was on stopping him. Granted, no school could play Wheaton without making Raymond defensive priority #1, but then there was also the big man and a couple other guards who could hit open shots. Having a stronger and more diverse team works against Raymond there.
I did get to see both players via video this year and while I'm in awe at the shooting touch of both, it seemed like Bartolotta was the better all-around player, certainly the one with better pro prospects. He was more nimble and a surer ball handler. Neither one was challenged too much at this level, but it seemed like Bartolotta has a higher ceiling.
We really are talking 1 and 1a here, though.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:31:53 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Yale (http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2008-2009/teamcume.html) goes 9-deep on the roster with double-digit minutes! Yale plays lots of players. Three starters averaged only 29.0-30.3 minutes this season, and then there was a huge drop-off to 21.7 and 20.0 minutes.
The Yale center in the MIT game only played 12 minutes, so Yale may have gone with a smaller line-up.
As an outsider to the CCIW wars, I saw Raymond on WETN several times.
Candidly, I was put-off by his whining and working the refs! That is just me. I don't like players who work the ref. Not on my team, not in the game in general.
Maybe Raymond's on-court antics are the "400-lb gorilla in the room" in the minds of many voters.
Maybe they thought that Bartolotta was a classier player.
I'll accept your use of the word "maybe" as evidence that you'd have to watch a few more games in person before attempting to make that assertion.
So might seeing the whining by Raymond in person would soften my impression of him?
I think that I would be even more put-off by him in that case. ;)
Although Raymond had the universal respect of every poster in CCIW Chat, his whining was a subject of conversation in the room on more than one occasion. My personal take on it was that, while I was annoyed by his persistent complaining, I also recognized the value in it in that he was a competitive player who was looking for every edge he could get -- and politicking the refs on a nightly basis was simply another example of trying to gain that edge.
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good. ::)
C'mon, be fair. There's a grand total of
one CCIW fan who has complained about Bartolotta being selected Player of the Year over Raymond. Howzabout not tarring us all with the same brush?
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.
You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.
..........and the above statement is pretty much false. One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No. The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.
I'd say that it's the WIAC almost every year. The CCIW's been the best on occasion, but it's almost always the WIAC that sets the standard in D3.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.
You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.
..........and the above statement is pretty much false. One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No. The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.
You are correct. I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement. I agree with your correction.
As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC. Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of. I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate. You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good." I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good. I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond. Which is WHY I am whining and moaning .
Fixed it for you.
Hate to tell you, but the people that made this decision know a lot more about basketball then you do, and are not as insanely obsessed with Kent raymond as you are. As several other CCIWers and even Wheaton alums have put it..you are just embarassing yourself now....
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 23, 2009, 12:47:06 AM
I think Bartolotta did more with less - that is, he didn't have the same caliber of team around him, which meant every defensive focus was on stopping him. Granted, no school could play Wheaton without making Raymond defensive priority #1, but then there was also the big man and a couple other guards who could hit open shots. Having a stronger and more diverse team works against Raymond there.
I don't buy that argument.
Billy Johnson averages 17 and 7 RB's
Hamidou Soumare averages 14 and 7 RB's
KR and JB have such similar stats that you HAVE to consider the opponents they are playing against.
JB backers will say KR plays with better teammates, yet look at the two MIT players listed above. That argument is out.
JB backers will say Wheaton was expected to do better than MIT, and guess what, Wheaton did. So how that is an argument against KR I don't know.
If it comes down to merely stats, then, I feel that strength of schedule is a stat that needs to be included. Instead, it seems that is being left out of the discussion, while everyone is free to play the "he's from MIT, he does more with less" logic. Just finish that sentence "he does more with less, AGAINST less" and we'd all agree.
Quote from: larry_u on March 23, 2009, 10:02:22 AM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
Quote from: sac on March 22, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 22, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
And please don't think I'm arguing a case just because Raymond was the best player in the perenially best conference.
You've used the CCIW is better than the NEWMAC angle at least twice.
..........and the above statement is pretty much false. One of the best, yes, but perenially the best conference in D3......No. The UAA and WIAC have pretty strong arguments, it probably rotates between those three.
You are correct. I intended to type "one of" when typing that statement. I agree with your correction.
As for HOW I'm arguing, it's that CCIW is better than NEWMAC. Yes.
WHY I'm arguing is not just because Kent is the best option from the conference I'm a fan of. I'm not on here soap boxing (after the fact) for the CCIW candidate. You had posted "Yeah, its hard to believe there could ever be a player from outside the CCIW that might be good." I know there are players outside of the CCIW that are good. I just have a hard time believing there are better players than Kent Raymond. Which is WHY I am whining and moaning .
Fixed it for you.
Hate to tell you, but the people that made this decision know a lot more about basketball then you do, and are not as insanely obsessed with Kent raymond as you are. As several other CCIWers and even Wheaton alums have put it..you are just embarassing yourself now....
Hey wait, I don't remember typing
that. OHHHH. I see what happened. Clever.
Tell me why these people know basketball better than I do? Because they are sports editors? Because they've seen KR 2x and JB 3 on tape? Because you know anything about me? Here's a summary: the voting process has been reported to be based largely on stats, and with stats so similar between two players, I simply wonder why strength of schedule would not be included as a stat for processing. Wheaton played the 7th hardest schedule, MIT the 177th hardest. The difference between the 7th and 177th opponents certainly is larger than 2.5 rebounds and a steal.
If you can make a conclusive argument about why my logic is wrong, please do. Those are stats. I am quoting them.
If Pat Coleman wants to say that the decision was made on something other than stats, then it's a different discussion as well. But, it sounds like the voters have only seen the players a few times each, which is why stats become so much more important.
And lastly, I believe it was 1 CCIWer and 1 Wheaton Alum. Which is not several, which is maybe why you are lost in my discussion that involves so many stats and quantity units.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 23, 2009, 11:58:27 AM
...And lastly...
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsmilies.net%2Fhappy-smiley-611.gif&hash=fe6c88220c823be33c3fb933740ab15031b8bc9c) (https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsmilies.net%2Fhappy-smiley-8814.gif&hash=35bdc2fdf3e86e09ad4d8cabefb99cefc2a15520) (https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsmilies.net%2Fhappy-smiley-8809.gif&hash=334b283de6bd732d32166784879a0b9bef62d006) (https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fplanetsmilies.net%2Fhappy-smiley-8837.gif&hash=1a38522e77288e996e3ea2e3d8a2c14df469db7b)
FYI, Soumare left the team five games into the season so I am not sure why you are mentioning his stats -- Johnson and MAYBE Karraker (third leading scorer but only a frosh) are the only guys on MIT who would have gotten any burn for Wheaton this year, beyond Bartolotta of course.
If you want to complain, complain about the Naismith award finalists in D-I -- no Stephen Curry? Now THAT is an injustice. Hansborough wasn't even the MVP of his own team and he is a finalist on reputation alone, while Curry put up ridiculous stats against every gimmick defense in the book (including the first triangle and two, where the two guard one guy, I have ever seen).
So who are the candidates for preseason All-American in '09-10? Returnees are...
Aaron Thompson (G), Jr., Wash U - 1st Team
Sean Wallis (G), Jr., Wash U - 2nd Team
Steve Djurickovic (G), So., Carthage - 3rd Team
D.J. Marsh (F), Jr., UW-Oshkosh - 3rd Team
Richard Jean-Baptiste (F), Jr., Brooklyn - 4th Team
Tyler Sanborn (C), Jr., Guilford - 4th Team
I'm not sure the CCIW has a legitimate candidate right now outside of Djurickovic (who will probably be in the discussion for national P.O.Y. next season). There are a few CCIW guys who could develop into AA types though.
There is a really great group of rising senior forwards in New England next year ... the thing is, they are all fairly even so they will likely cancel themselves out on the national scene, at least pre-season: Adam Choice, Jon Pierce, Blake Schultz, Steven Wheeler (if he can stay healthy), Brandon Shelton, Maurice Horton -- any of those guys would not be out of place on one of the pre-season all american teams.
New England is far weaker at the guard and center spots and I don't think will offer anyone worthy of consideration ... G Meehan at Amherst really came on late in the year, and C Geoghegan at Williams could have a huge senior year if he is finally healthy, but neither did enough overall this season to warrant pre-season all-american status.
Here is my All-Freshmen team from 2008-09, based only on players I saw in person...
G Georgio Milligan (6-2), Franklin & Marshall - 13.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.2 apg
G Dylan Richter (6-3), Wash U - 5.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg
F John Koschnitzky (6-6), Illinois Wesleyan - 9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg
F Tim McCrary (6-6), Wheaton - 9.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg
C Jason Spinder (6-10), Manchester - 9.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg
It wouldn't surprise me if any of these guys develop into All-Americans down the road.
Nate Novosel of the University of Rochester needs to be mentioned on an All Freshman team.
I didn't see Bartolotta play but if you are going to throw defensive ability into the mix, and why not, then you have to start bringing Aaron Thompson into the discussion. I saw the matchup between the two and was not impressed with Raymond on the defensive end. Tell me this. If you had $1000 on the table and had to pick at team to win, who would you go with?
NESCAC had a pretty sweet (unofficial) all-rookie team this year -- few years have seen so many frosh make this type of impact in the league (granted, a down year for upperclassmen in the league overall which helped). All are guys to watch in the future. Key stats:
PG, James Wang, Williams, 6 ppg, 2 rpg, 1.5 asp, .7 spg, 50 percent fgp in only 12 minutes pg (when he finally got PT late in the season, he really came on ... in his last four games, he average 13 ppg)
G/F, Jason Mendell, Wesleyan, 14.5 ppg, 5 rpg, .1.5 asp, .45/.39/.82 shooting
F, Demetrius Porter, Conn College, 14 ppg, 5 rpg, 2 apg, 1 bpg, 1 spg, conference ROY
F, David Waller, Amherst, 7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1 apg, .5 bpg, over 40 percent from 3 (probably the most upside of any of the frosh in NESCAC, his numbers will rise dramatically next year and I'd bet he is an all-american by the time he graduates -- the only other frosh starter in recent memory at Amherst is Andrew Olson)
C, Ryan Sharry, Middlebury, 8 ppg, 5 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 57% fgp, only 18 mpg (he will also put up huge numbers once he is a starter next year)
Quote from: Titan Q on March 23, 2009, 02:00:40 PM
So who are the candidates for preseason All-American in '09-10?
I think Gettysburg's Andrew Powers, the Centennial and D3hoops.com Mid-Atlantic Player of the Year, should get some serious consideration. I was surprised he wasn't on any of this year's AA teams after the regional POY honor.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 23, 2009, 02:13:45 PM
Here is my All-Freshmen team from 2008-09, based only on players I saw in person...
G Georgio Milligan (6-2), Franklin & Marshall - 13.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.2 apg
G Dylan Richter (6-3), Wash U - 5.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg
F John Koschnitzky (6-6), Illinois Wesleyan - 9.5 ppg, 4.6 rpg
F Tim McCrary (6-6), Wheaton - 9.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg
C Jason Spinder (6-10), Manchester - 9.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg
It wouldn't surprise me if any of these guys develop into All-Americans down the road.
I'm glad you got to see Georgio Milligan, even if he did turn it over a bit too often against Stockton. He had the best freshman season I've ever seen from a player in the CC, especially given all he was asked to do in running Glenn Robinson's system from day one. Gettysburg coach George Petrie said Milligan was the key to F&M's turnaround this year, and I definitely agree with that.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 23, 2009, 12:47:06 AM
I did get to see both players via video this year and while I'm in awe at the shooting touch of both, it seemed like Bartolotta was the better all-around player, certainly the one with better pro prospects. He was more nimble and a surer ball handler. Neither one was challenged too much at this level, but it seemed like Bartolotta has a higher ceiling.
Sorry, last post on the topic, but I'm not sure that the "more nimble and surer ball handler" would be the one with more turnovers. And less assists.
There. Done. Still haven't seen him play.
I know I won't get a better argument than those thus far, so thank you all for the cathartic discussion of this POY race between Raymond and Bartolotta.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 23, 2009, 07:19:44 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 23, 2009, 12:47:06 AM
I did get to see both players via video this year and while I'm in awe at the shooting touch of both, it seemed like Bartolotta was the better all-around player, certainly the one with better pro prospects. He was more nimble and a surer ball handler. Neither one was challenged too much at this level, but it seemed like Bartolotta has a higher ceiling.
Sorry, last post on the topic, but I'm not sure that the "more nimble and surer ball handler" would be the one with more turnovers. And less assists.
There. Done. Still haven't seen him play.
I know I won't get a better argument than those thus far, so thank you all for the cathartic discussion of this POY race between Raymond and Bartolotta.
It's not really a race if the winner is already known, is it? ;D
Quote from: Titan Q on March 23, 2009, 02:00:40 PM
So who are the candidates for preseason All-American in '09-10? Returnees are...
Aaron Thompson (G), Jr., Wash U - 1st Team
Sean Wallis (G), Jr., Wash U - 2nd Team
Steve Djurickovic (G), So., Carthage - 3rd Team
D.J. Marsh (F), Jr., UW-Oshkosh - 3rd Team
Richard Jean-Baptiste (F), Jr., Brooklyn - 4th Team
Tyler Sanborn (C), Jr., Guilford - 4th Team
I'm not sure the CCIW has a legitimate candidate right now outside of Djurickovic (who will probably be in the discussion for national P.O.Y. next season). There are a few CCIW guys who could develop into AA types though.
We will need some help to evaluate Jean-Baptiste on a national level. Will there be any streaming video of his games?
Can we get Rhodes Scholar to post his impressions? :)
Quote from: Titan Q on March 23, 2009, 02:00:40 PM
So who are the candidates for preseason All-American in '09-10? Returnees are...
I'll throw junior Darnell Braswell (DeSales) onto this list.
Led DeSales to a Freedom Conference Title and the NCAA "Elite 8". Named Conference Player of the Year, NABC Regional Player of the Year, NABC First-Team All-American, and in the NCAA 2nd Round match-up with D3hoops.com 4th-Team All-American Sean Burton scored a career-high 27 points and held Burton seven below his average (15 points) with seven turnovers.
Enjoy the off-season everyone.
Coming into this season, Wooster's Brandon Johnson was considered by many to be a potential All-American at point guard. He suffered a knee injury in the offseason, however, and missed the entire season. Brandon took a medical redshirt, and will return for his "super-senior" season next year, and assuming all of his mobility is regained (I am led to believe that it is), he's a candidate for A-A honors--and one that may be overlooked because of his lost season.
What about Wooster's young big guy; is he good enough to be a pre-season AA candidate next year (even if it's not first team)?
His stats were very good.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 23, 2009, 11:16:26 PM
What about Wooster's young big guy; is he good enough to be a pre-season AA candidate next year (even if it's not first team)?
His stats were very good.
Justin Hallowell, the D3Hoops.com national Rookie of the Year, has a lot of potential. This year, despite being 6'7", he mostly used his incredible shooting eye to pour in a school-record number of threes (94) at a .514 clip (4th in D3). He's deadly from 26 feet in, and it's very difficult to guard a 6'7" guy who is not afraid to shoot from 26'. Still, his game this year was largely one-dimensional, even if that one dimension was pretty amazing. Towards the end of the year, he started getting more aggressive both on offense (driving the lane) and on defense (rebounding). If he continues to develop these aspects of his game, he could be a very, very special player before he's through.
I actually think there was a better (read: more talented, more well-rounded) freshman in the NCAC this season, that being 6'6" forward/post Pat Pellerite from Ohio Wesleyan. He's not a shooter, but he's got potential as a scorer. He's very athletic and skilled in the post on both ends, and is a dynamic rebounder. The OWU offense was perimeter-based, so most of his scoring opportunities were on putbacks, but with the top two perimeter players graduating, Coach Mike DeWitt may reconfigure his offense into more of an outside-in orientation, and if that happens, Pellerite could have a very strong sophomore campaign.
I would not expect either Hallowell or Pellerite to emerge as All-Americans next season, but I do anticipate that both may be at that level as upperclassmen.
Swingman Rashawn Smalls of NJCU should receive consideration next year for AA. He was the NJAC Rookie of the Year, the Atlantic Rookie of the Year and was 2nd team all region I believe, I will double check and I will try to post his stats if I get the time.
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
Last year I purchased a cable package that includes a lot of Fox Sports College channels so I could get the DIII title game on CBS-College, which was also part of the package. It has been interesting over the last year watching some of those channels, though I think replaying every PAC-10 basketball game 50-100 times might be overkill. Even saw some DIII regular season games, mostly featuring the Wisconsin schools. I remember thinking it is unfortunate that Wisconsin-Stout couldn't put something other than "Stout" across the front of their jerseys, especially the women's. Anyway, it seems that with all these channels somebody could broadcast a game or two a week from around the various regions. The top matchups if you will, so that people in the Mid-West can see MIT and the Mainers can see what up in Texas. There must be colleges/universities that could provide feeds.
Quote from: Ethelred the Unready on March 24, 2009, 12:47:49 PMI remember thinking it is unfortunate that Wisconsin-Stout couldn't put something other than "Stout" across the front of their jerseys, especially the women's.
LOL!
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 24, 2009, 10:17:33 AM
Swingman Rashawn Smalls of NJCU should receive consideration next year for AA. He was the NJAC Rookie of the Year, the Atlantic Rookie of the Year and was 2nd team all region I believe, I will double check and I will try to post his stats if I get the time.
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
Just as an object lesson, I thought I'd compare this stat line with those of Wooster's Hallowell and OWU's Pellerite, the two players I just dismissed as 2009-10 A-A candidates:
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
40 Justin Hallowell 29 29 29.2 .498 .514 .879 4.7 1.4 13 12 14.2
33 Pat Pellerite 25 25 23.7 .567 .150* .757 6.9 1.0 17 13 10.4 (*note: 3 for 20)
I guess all I mean to say is one man's feast is another man's famine. None of these lines says "All-American" to me, but they might (and, I guess, do) to someone else.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 24, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 24, 2009, 10:17:33 AM
Swingman Rashawn Smalls of NJCU should receive consideration next year for AA. He was the NJAC Rookie of the Year, the Atlantic Rookie of the Year and was 2nd team all region I believe, I will double check and I will try to post his stats if I get the time.
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
Just as an object lesson, I thought I'd compare this stat line with those of Wooster's Hallowell and OWU's Pellerite, the two players I just dismissed as 2009-10 A-A candidates:
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
40 Justin Hallowell 29 29 29.2 .498 .514 .879 4.7 1.4 13 12 14.2
33 Pat Pellerite 25 25 23.7 .567 .150* .757 6.9 1.0 17 13 10.4 (*note: 3 for 20)
I guess all I mean to say is one man's feast is another man's famine. None of these lines says "All-American" to me, but they might (and, I guess, do) to someone else.
3 for 20 over a season tells me that the opponent's left him out there unguarded because the scouting report said he could not hit the 3FG.
He reassesses his skills and doesn't waste the possession next season. :)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 24, 2009, 04:37:07 PM
3 for 20 over a season tells me that the opponent's left him out there unguarded because the scouting report said he could not hit the 3FG.
He reassesses his skills and doesn't waste the possession next season. :)
I think it was more generally desperation shots to beat the buzzer. I saw OWU play ten games this season and honestly can't remember Pellerite attempting a single three. It's not in his game, and both he and his coach know that.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 24, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 24, 2009, 10:17:33 AM
Swingman Rashawn Smalls of NJCU should receive consideration next year for AA. He was the NJAC Rookie of the Year, the Atlantic Rookie of the Year and was 2nd team all region I believe, I will double check and I will try to post his stats if I get the time.
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
Just as an object lesson, I thought I'd compare this stat line with those of Wooster's Hallowell and OWU's Pellerite, the two players I just dismissed as 2009-10 A-A candidates:
## SUMMARY GP GS Min/G FG% 3PT% FT% Reb/G Ast/G Stl Blk Pts/G
21 Rashawn Smalls 24 24 29.0 .429 .378 .522 8.5 1.4 38 18 16.3
40 Justin Hallowell 29 29 29.2 .498 .514 .879 4.7 1.4 13 12 14.2
33 Pat Pellerite 25 25 23.7 .567 .150* .757 6.9 1.0 17 13 10.4 (*note: 3 for 20)
I guess all I mean to say is one man's feast is another man's famine. None of these lines says "All-American" to me, but they might (and, I guess, do) to someone else.
Did not say he was an AA, just should receive consideration. Best player on a very young team missing Dana John, only one Sr and two JR rest soph and fr. He was rookie of the week most of the season, received ECAC player of the week honors at least once for the region.
Well the NABC made their announcements today also, and it is a sweep of all the major awards for Jimmy Bartolotta (Jostens, Cosida/ESPN Mag, d3hoops, and NABC).
Bartolotta named NABC Player of the Year: http://nabc.cstv.com/genrel/032509aaa.html
He gets his award in Detroit on April 5.
Here is the link for other first team selections: http://nabc.cstv.com/genrel/032009aac.html
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
From reading this
http://mitathletics.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032409aaa.html
apparently we can see Jimmy Bartolotta playing with D1 All Stars at the Final 4 in Detroit (if you have access to the CBS College Sports Network).
"Bartolotta has also been selected to play in the Hershey's College All-Star Game on Friday, April 3, at Ford Field in Detroit. The All-Star Game, which is presented by the NABC, is free to the public and will be televised live on CBS College Sports Network at 4:35 p.m. Bartolotta and Division II National Player of the Year Josh Bostic of Findlay are the only two non-Division I players competing in the game."
Quote from: hugenerd on March 25, 2009, 02:39:25 PM
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 25, 2009, 02:39:25 PM
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.
At the risk of resurrecting this skeleton.........why is it you demand the voters see both players in person but not yourself?
Quote from: sac on March 25, 2009, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 25, 2009, 02:39:25 PM
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.
At the risk of resurrecting this skeleton.........why is it you demand the voters see both players in person but not yourself?
Easy amigo. I conceded the point to begin with, didn't I?
I was more reflecting on what USee posted on the other board about the limited visibility of all D3 players to the entire country. As Pat himself said, he'd seen Raymond 2x and a "few tapes" of Bartolotta. And he's the head of the site. I imagine many more of the voters lean on stats over first hand knowledge, so when hugenerd here says "when people who have actually seen them play..." I'm expressing that I truly hope that is the case.
I know I don't have 10 years of writing on the boards here, but I promise I'm not an idiot. You'll probably give me a -k for this post, except you already gave me one today, didn't you?
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 07:07:48 PM
Quote from: sac on March 25, 2009, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 25, 2009, 02:39:25 PM
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.
At the risk of resurrecting this skeleton.........why is it you demand the voters see both players in person but not yourself?
Easy amigo. I conceded the point to begin with, didn't I?
I was more reflecting on what USee posted on the other board about the limited visibility of all D3 players to the entire country. As Pat himself said, he'd seen Raymond 2x and a "few tapes" of Bartolotta. And he's the head of the site. I imagine many more of the voters lean on stats over first hand knowledge, so when hugenerd here says "when people who have actually seen them play..." I'm expressing that I truly hope that is the case.
I know I don't have 10 years of writing on the boards here, but I promise I'm not an idiot. You'll probably give me a -k for this post, except you already gave me one today, didn't you?
No I did not and no I won't ::), and no one called you an idiot........and you didn't really answer the question.
CCIWchamps, your on here too!!?? :o ;)
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
In other words, take this post from another board in regards to the D3Hoops AA Team: ...
OK, honestly, did you quote that post here solely to mislead people or what? Right away, I debunked that understanding with a heavy dose of reality. But you didn't quote that, you quoted someone else's hearsay.
Spare me the BS. You don't like the choice, I get that. But why don't you stay true to your word and stop talking about it already?
I finally had time to read most of the hot topics. Maybe its just me, but I think all the "hype" about Kent Raymond has skewed the minds of those who probably have knowledge of the game. CCIWchamps knows what he is talking about, this doesnt make him right, but non the less, he has some points. I will blame those who have risen Kent Raymond status to an unreachable level for CCIWchamps arrogance and false understanding of how good that player really is. I am not saying Kent Raymond isnt a fantastic player, but maybe all the hype and comments regarding him have given people a false understanding of him. Anyone else?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2009, 10:29:45 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
In other words, take this post from another board in regards to the D3Hoops AA Team: ...
OK, honestly, did you quote that post here solely to mislead people or what? Right away, I debunked that understanding with a heavy dose of reality. But you didn't quote that, you quoted someone else's hearsay.
Spare me the BS. You don't like the choice, I get that. But why don't you stay true to your word and stop talking about it already?
Pat, if you weren't omnipresent I'd swear you were following me.
What post are you talking about?
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 25, 2009, 10:17:37 PM
CCIWchamps, your on here too!!?? :o ;)
Sure. How'd you find your way over here?
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 25, 2009, 11:38:33 PM
I finally had time to read most of the hot topics. Maybe its just me, but I think all the "hype" about Kent Raymond has skewed the minds of those who probably have knowledge of the game. CCIWchamps knows what he is talking about, this doesnt make him right, but non the less, he has some points. I will blame those who have risen Kent Raymond status to an unreachable level for CCIWchamps arrogance and false understanding of how good that player really is. I am not saying Kent Raymond isnt a fantastic player, but maybe all the hype and comments regarding him have given people a false understanding of him. Anyone else?
Thanks. I'm not sure your point here, though.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2009, 10:29:45 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 07:30:26 PM
In other words, take this post from another board in regards to the D3Hoops AA Team: ...
OK, honestly, did you quote that post here solely to mislead people or what? Right away, I debunked that understanding with a heavy dose of reality. But you didn't quote that, you quoted someone else's hearsay.
Spare me the BS. You don't like the choice, I get that. But why don't you stay true to your word and stop talking about it already?
I remember what you are talking about now. The quote about sitting around in the hotel listening on speaker phone.
First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it. As you told the SID on the other board, why not use the personal message feature? If you're on a BS hunt, I found some for you.
Second, if you're going to delete my posts, maybe you'd consider leaving the parts of my post that actually were not offensive to you. The old baby with the bathwater argument. My post was actually answering a direction question posed by SAC and I was attempting to carry on a conversation.
Third, the quote was supposed to show how frustrated some disappointed fans had gotten, even to the point of concocting a story about how the process must work if their player didn't get chosen. And how I can empathize with the feeling, yet am able to trust that it doesn't happen like they said. My point: if the voters didn't seem them play, then the idea of them sitting around in a hotel room and choosing based solely on stats is not that far-fetched. Which is why I hope they saw them.
I hope this clears things up. It's the best I can do from memory without seeing my original wording.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 26, 2009, 10:22:20 AM
First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it.
No offense, but I will delete posts that mislead people about how we operate, and I will do it every time. I should've deleted the original post, apparently, but I was fairly certain people were smart enough to read the follow-up. Guess I was wrong.
I quoted the post I was talking about with enough context for you to understand.
Quote from: sac on March 25, 2009, 07:12:59 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 07:07:48 PM
Quote from: sac on March 25, 2009, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 25, 2009, 06:56:02 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 25, 2009, 02:39:25 PM
I think the fact that he swept all of the major awards (I dont think even Ruths did that last year), should quench some of those arguing (if that many people who have actually seen them play are choosing Bartolotta consistently, there has to be some merit to their choice).
Fair point, and I hope the voters did actually see him.
At the risk of resurrecting this skeleton.........why is it you demand the voters see both players in person but not yourself?
Easy amigo. I conceded the point to begin with, didn't I?
I was more reflecting on what USee posted on the other board about the limited visibility of all D3 players to the entire country. As Pat himself said, he'd seen Raymond 2x and a "few tapes" of Bartolotta. And he's the head of the site. I imagine many more of the voters lean on stats over first hand knowledge, so when hugenerd here says "when people who have actually seen them play..." I'm expressing that I truly hope that is the case.
I know I don't have 10 years of writing on the boards here, but I promise I'm not an idiot. You'll probably give me a -k for this post, except you already gave me one today, didn't you?
No I did not and no I won't ::), and no one called you an idiot........and you didn't really answer the question.
To respond to your question again- my first reply has since been removed from the page- 1) I'd like the voters to see all of the players, since I am unable to do so. If looking at stats alone is a qualification, then why can't I vote? 2) I don't suggest seeing everyone "in person." I suggest they just see them so they have something else to go off of to sway their opinion. 3) If stats alone are used, for this year in particular, I feel like the wrong decision was made as I've attempted to show through my own use of stats. Seeing as the votes came out the way they did, I'll trust each voter saw the players and are able to better judge as a result, which is also better than I could. More informed is always better. It's not like I'm requesting they be a retired player of the sport!
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2009, 10:24:19 AM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 26, 2009, 10:22:20 AM
First, if you're going to delete my posts as moderator of the site, I think it's pretty weak to then follow it up by talking smack about it.
No offense, but I will delete posts that mislead people about how we operate, and I will do it every time. I should've deleted the original post, apparently, but I was fairly certain people were smart enough to read the follow-up. Guess I was wrong.
I quoted the post I was talking about with enough context for you to understand.
Oh I understood the original post and how you debunked it with the follow up. But that someone was frustrated enough to concoct a story out of frustration still happened. It's a true conveyance of the feeling taken to the extreme.
And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.
I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2009, 10:54:16 AM
And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.
I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.
His assertion was comical enough that it debunked itself, even before your follow-up.
My quote of it showed how far an argument COULD be taken, and how, in comparison, me saying "I hope they see them play" is quite reasonable.
It in no way endorses his statement, or attempts to show it as fact.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 26, 2009, 11:46:59 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2009, 10:54:16 AM
And yet you posted it here as if it were fact, without the follow-up.
I don't take kindly to my position being distorted.
His assertion was comical enough that it debunked itself, even before your follow-up.
My quote of it showed how far an argument COULD be taken, and how, in comparison, me saying "I hope they see them play" is quite reasonable.
It in no way endorses his statement, or attempts to show it as fact.
Horse.....dead.....beat.....stop.....please.....
CCIW - I have been reading every single post you have had... and it is seriously time to just stop.
I don't want to speak for Pat, but it isn't like he takes the decision lightly or just throws a dart at the wall and which ever it hits closest to is the guy who wins it. He makes sure to make an educated decision and goes out of his way to get as much information about players as he can. He did see several games of Wheaton's and made the effort to see video on Bartolotta so he could make a decision that wasn't based stricktly on stats.
By the way, your counter-point on stats is based on just a couple you wanted to focus on vs. the entire stat line everyone else has used to compare. The simple fact you are twisting the evidence so you can seem to have the better arguement doesn't stand water when it comes to the POY. Heck, the fact you choose to ignore or discount the other stats and facts means you have to find some way to make Raymond better - he can't stand on his own.
I understand you disagree with the decision - I got that on the first post... I still understood it after the 10th post... I am starting to get sick of hearing the point at post #20. When you have to pick just one player, many others and their fans are going to be disappointed. However, I haven't seen any other player/team/fan from any other 1st-team AA complain - at least to the level you have taken this.
Please move on. Celebrate the career Kent Raymond had. Congratulate (if you want) Jimmy Bartolotta for a fine career as well. And start thinking about 2009-2010.
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on March 26, 2009, 12:25:21 PM
CCIW - I have been reading every single post you have had... and it is seriously time to just stop.
I don't want to speak for Pat, but it isn't like he takes the decision lightly or just throws a dart at the wall and which ever it hits closest to is the guy who wins it. He makes sure to make an educated decision and goes out of his way to get as much information about players as he can. He did see several games of Wheaton's and made the effort to see video on Bartolotta so he could make a decision that wasn't based stricktly on stats.
By the way, your counter-point on stats is based on just a couple you wanted to focus on vs. the entire stat line everyone else has used to compare. The simple fact you are twisting the evidence so you can seem to have the better arguement doesn't stand water when it comes to the POY. Heck, the fact you choose to ignore or discount the other stats and facts means you have to find some way to make Raymond better - he can't stand on his own.
I understand you disagree with the decision - I got that on the first post... I still understood it after the 10th post... I am starting to get sick of hearing the point at post #20. When you have to pick just one player, many others and their fans are going to be disappointed. However, I haven't seen any other player/team/fan from any other 1st-team AA complain - at least to the level you have taken this.
Please move on. Celebrate the career Kent Raymond had. Congratulate (if you want) Jimmy Bartolotta for a fine career as well. And start thinking about 2009-2010.
Here's my response, and only because you addressed me:
1) I think we agree that he's done more than just throw darts at a wall. In fact what I was just explaining to Pat is exactly that: I am distancing myself from those who believe it is a blind draw on Pat's part.
2) While I appreciate you coming to your boss or co-worker's defense, the same thing you said about me choosing specific stats while ignoring others is just as applicable in the opposite direction. To be fair you should consider that point and then understand why I chose the ones I did. To offset those being selected first while leaving out others. I find your argument less damning of me than to the one I was responding.
3) I do congratulate JB, and you may have noticed this happened early on in the posts I've made.
4) Long ago this became much less about the POY iscussion and more about me defending myself and my arguments. I have stuck to the same concepts the whole time and have not disparaged Mr. Coleman. Many have disagreed and many have agreed. And many more have weighed in. As you'll note, Pat and I have exchanged posts, so it is not just me engaging in the discussion. I appreciate your 2 cents but think you need take a look at the bigger picture. Pat's a big boy and can handle things on his own. I only respond to those who engage, much like I've just done to your post. Ironic that you tell me to drop it and then start a new discussion about the very same topic. I guess that's how message boards work.
In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs. Quoting CEO John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock. It was something we didn't plan for." When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."
This is actually a fascinating read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat
sac - I haven't read your link, yet. I immediately got worried when the link reads "horse_meat"! :)
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on March 26, 2009, 01:48:53 PM
sac - I haven't read your link, yet. I immediately got worried when the link reads "horse_meat"! :)
I won't lie, its about horse meat, filled with fascinating facts and history.
Quote from: sac on March 26, 2009, 01:46:55 PM
In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs. Quoting CEO John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock. It was something we didn't plan for." When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."
This is actually a fascinating read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat
And......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse
I remember taking the kids to Mystic Seaport years ago and hearing a story about "beating a dead horse" and how it related to sailing ships of the 17th/18th century. I have forgotten the details but I remember it had something to do with sea shanty's or some type of song. Anyone have any details?
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 25, 2009, 11:38:33 PM
I finally had time to read most of the hot topics. Maybe its just me, but I think all the "hype" about Kent Raymond has skewed the minds of those who probably have knowledge of the game. CCIWchamps knows what he is talking about, this doesnt make him right, but non the less, he has some points. I will blame those who have risen Kent Raymond status to an unreachable level for CCIWchamps arrogance and false understanding of how good that player really is. I am not saying Kent Raymond isnt a fantastic player, but maybe all the hype and comments regarding him have given people a false understanding of him. Anyone else?
No.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no "false understanding" of Kent Raymond, Scrub023. Hype has not "skewed my mind" regarding him.
Let me put this into perspective for you. I have followed D3 men's basketball for three decades. I see anywhere from twenty to fifty D3 men's basketball games in person per season. I've seen literally thousands of D3 basketball players, including a large percentage of the d3hoops.com All-Americans of the past decade.
Of all of those thousands of players, I would count Kent Raymond -- whom I saw play about 25-30 times over the course of his career -- among the five best D3 players I have ever seen. And I am not exaggerating. Nor am I saying this to pump up my home conference; Raymond played for my school's archrival, and I would
never glorify a Wheaton student-athlete unnecessarily just to tout the CCIW as a whole. Wheaton has plenty of people to polish its apples on this website and elsewhere, and it doesn't need me to do it for it -- even if I were so inclined.
I am not alone in my assessment. The CCIW's coaches have given out a Most Outstanding Player award for the past forty-two years, and only three players have ever won the award three times. Raymond is one of them. The other three-time MOPs, Illinois Wesleyan's Jack Sikma and North Park's Michael Harper, went on to enjoy NBA careers. In other words, Raymond is in extremely select company -- and, unlike Sikma and Harper, Raymond isn't 6'9. He's a 6'3 guard.
Nobody has hyped me into a false consciousness regarding Raymond. Nor have I hyped anyone else into a false consciousness about Raymond. He was simply
that good.
I thought that he should've been d3hoops.com's POY, but I'm not going to raise a big stink about it. It's not important to me. What
is important to me is the truth, Scrub023, and the truth is that Kent Raymond was every bit as good a basketball player as people who've watched him play have attested.
Greg-
Can you give your five?
Charles Barkley and Dwayne Wade may be in his five? ;D ;)
Quote from: chairman on March 26, 2009, 11:27:14 PM
Greg-
Can you give your five?
Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind. If I had seen these guys, my list might've been different. Then again, it might not have been different at all.
The greatest D3 player I ever saw was Michael Harper, hands down. After that, I'd say that there's a pool that consists of Derrick Rowland, Michael Thomas, Modzel Greer, Blaise Bugajski, Justyne Monegain, Wayne Dunning, Steve Iannarino, Dana Janssen, Michael Starks, Michael Barach, Kermit Sharp, Robert Brown, Chris Fite, Steve Honderd, Bryan Crabtree, Korey Coon, Derek Reich, Richard Melzer, and Kent Raymond. I won't rank them, but Raymond's definitely in the upper half of that crew, in fact probably in the top third of it as well. So perhaps I should've said "top ten" instead of "top five".
There's a ton of amazing players I've seen who're not on that list -- Tiny Green, Steve Keenan, Max Artis, Tony Jordan, Mark Linde, Andre McKoy, Rosey Bullock, Brendan Mitchell, Lou Stevens, Jeff Kuehl, Brad Baldridge, Ricky Spicer, Wade Gugino, Eric Elliott, Charles Woods, Kirk Anderson, Chris Simich, Aaron Winkle, Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, Jeremy Veenstra, Ryan Knuppel, Chris Jeffries, Drew Carstens, Seth Hauben, Joel Kolmodin, Travis Dupree, Jason Kalsow, Nick Bennett, Keelan Amelianovich, Adam Dauksas, Chris Martin, Larry Welton, Troy Ruths, Nate Hainje, and Steve Djurickovic among them -- whom I'd put just a slot or two below those guys. What's frightening is that Djurickovic is on that list, and he still has two years left in his career. The overall body of work that Sean Wallis has put up in the games in which I've seen him play don't warrant his inclusion on this list, but if he comes back next season and plays like he did in the Wheaton sectional he'll definitely be on here as well.
Then there's guys whom I only saw once or maybe twice -- players such as Brian Agler, Ed Jachim, Jason Qua, Dale Turnquist, Ty Evans, Duane Bosma, Joel Holstege, Tim Dworak, Bryan Nelson, Doug Espenson, and Jesse Reimink -- who didn't wow me but whom I realize are much better than the impression that they left upon me. Basketball's the kind of game where you can see a superstar once on what turns out to be a rare off-night and be left with the impression that he's not a superstar at all. That's why it's important not to take too narrow a view of a player whom you only see play once if his credentials are either much better or much worse than that single game's worth of impressions.
This is all just my deeply subjective take, of course.
Greg just listed 83 players..........I challenge people to try and remember 83 players from their own school they can remember.
wow!
... and yet the other day it took me five minutes to remember where I'd left my glasses.
Yet he left out 1st-team AA Zach Freeman. Deliberate, or does you mind not quite reach 84? :D
Deliberate. There's lots of excellent players that I've left off the list, Freeman being one of them. He just doesn't make the cut for me. Sorry, Chuck.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
Deliberate. There's lots of excellent players that I've left off the list, Freeman being one of them. He just doesn't make the cut for me. Sorry, Chuck.
No apology needed, but when we did the fantasy league in '07 I musta scored half my points on Zach (of course, that could also explain why I only finished in 3rd or 4th place - my other picks were mostly dogs! ;))
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
Deliberate. There's lots of excellent players that I've left off the list, Freeman being one of them. He just doesn't make the cut for me. Sorry, Chuck.
Zach Freeman was awfully good. From Salem 2006...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EANANcrj8
Every bit in the category as some of those players listed above in my book.
For anyone intersted, Zach is in his second season playing in Germany, and doing very well. This year he's averaging 15.9 ppg and 5.9 rpg, shooting 58% from the field...
http://statistik.basketball-bundesliga.de/zweite/stats/player/index.php?team=473&pos=PF&spieler_id=8369&saison=2008
http://www.phoenix-hagen.de/index.php?p=index&area=1
Thanks.... I didn't for a minute think I'd get just five, but I thoroughly enjoyed that rundown. A little history is always good.
Q. with all those Wesleyan names on that list, I wonder who you put in the IWU all-time five. Think about the quality of some of the guys who would not even get in the top ten, and it makes your head spin.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 26, 2009, 12:38:12 AM
Thanks. I'm not sure your point here, though.
At the risk of provoking the Bartolotta vs Kent Raymod argument, I was trying to say that all the talk about how great Kent Raymond is, may have messed with CCIW and other DIII fans ability to compare him with other great players in the DIII programs. Also, those same fans have to STRONG of a preference toward Kent Raymond. All the hype and talk about Raymond may have got into the DIII fans heads a little too much. Thats all Im trying to say.
Note: I do think Raymond is the most valuable of all DIII players.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 27, 2009, 10:01:51 PM
Zach Freeman was awfully good. From Salem 2006...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2EANANcrj8
Every bit in the category as some of those players listed above in my book.
We will have to agree to disagree on him. As I said before, this is a pretty subjective process. It's not
fully subjective, though; Scrub023's argument that Kent Raymond somehow doesn't measure up to all of the accolades he's been handed is fallacious and thoroughly contradicted by such evidence as his three CCIW MOP awards.
Quote from: chairman on March 28, 2009, 12:51:09 AM
Thanks.... I didn't for a minute think I'd get just five, but I thoroughly enjoyed that rundown. A little history is always good.
Great players are like potato chips. It's hard to stop at just five. ;)
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 03:16:45 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on March 26, 2009, 12:38:12 AM
Thanks. I'm not sure your point here, though.
At the risk of provoking the Bartolotta vs Kent Raymod argument, I was trying to say that all the talk about how great Kent Raymond is, may have messed with CCIW and other DIII fans ability to compare him with other great players in the DIII programs.
You haven't provoked that argument at all. Bartolotta is now completely off the radar as far as this discussion is concerned, since nobody's mentioned him in days. Instead, you've provoked a
completely different argument: CCIW fans have a distorted view of Kent Raymond because of all the hype, and they've elevated him above his actual playing level.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 03:16:45 PMAlso, those same fans have to STRONG of a preference toward Kent Raymond.
You're dead wrong, Scrub023. I've already stated my case as to why. Why haven't you responded to it?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 28, 2009, 06:57:49 PM
You're dead wrong, Scrub023. I've already stated my case as to why. Why haven't you responded to it?
Wow. I had no idea that this would upset you so much. If you read the previous comment I wrote, I am just saying that I thought that was a possibility. I never addressed you directly, and I feel like you took it personal since I meant it to be towards CCIW, not you. I never questioned your knowledge, so dont make me out to be some kind of arrogant jerk. If you don't think that what I said was true, that's ok, but you can't tell me that Im "Dead Wrong" since I may think your dead wrong, its an opinion, live with it. I do believe that all the talk has made fans believe that Kent Raymond is so unbelievable he could not have possibly lost in a POY type award. The evidence was the long lost rant by one fan. And no, I am not starting a new argument, it is true in all conferences. Every conference has a strong preference towards their top players, its part of being a fan, and I thought that may have happened with Raymond a little, not to the extent you made it out to be. Remember, I still think he is the most valuable of all DIII players, so don't make it out to seem like I am anti Raymond or CCIW, cause thats how Im taking all this. I KNOW that he is a fantastic player.
And I also think he deserved to be the DIII Player of the year.
I thought Sean Wallis was the best point guard in the country ;) ;) ;) oops -that I saw play......
Anyone have a link for where I could see some Kent Raymond highlights or game films? Because I just watched the Zach Freeman video, and comparing Jimmy Bartolotta to him would be like comparing LeBron James to George Mikan. Bartolotta is a complete player. An Ivy League coach said he would have made the All Ivy team in Division I.
Well, and I wouldn't compare Freeman to Raymond either, if that makes you feel any better. :)
search in youtube, There are several students who post Wheaton bball highlights. Footage ranges from really good to terrible, and it is a little hard to see how hard he has to work to get open.
Greg:
Two other players to add to your list:
Mike Nogelo from Williams and Matt Hancock from Colby.
Nogelo is probably the best player to play in the New England region in the past 25 years (if not longer). Nogelo was a three-time All American and won the Jostens award in his senior year.
Hancock from Colby is a close 2nd. He also was a three-time All American. Scored almost 2,700 career points.
This was posted a while ago but I thought I would update with more info:
Bartolotta will be playing this Friday in Detroit in the D1 Senior All-Star game (for being selected NABC POY, which was selected independently of the d3hoops POY). Information about the game is here:
http://www.ncaamarchmadness2009.com/mens/all_star.aspx
http://www.hersheys.com/marchmadness/allstar.aspx
I havent been able to find a full roster as of yet for this year's game, but last year's MVP was Demarcus Nelson and you can find the rest of last year's roster here: http://collegebasketballnews.scout.com/2/743723.html .
Raymond clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5MMi3CuD8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtfX0ofy4YY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH72KCacLII&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w9_2oGZxGA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqgC5zm-7rk&feature=related
Quote from: ephoops on March 29, 2009, 10:09:32 PM
Greg:
Two other players to add to your list:
Mike Nogelo from Williams and Matt Hancock from Colby.
Nogelo is probably the best player to play in the New England region in the past 25 years (if not longer). Nogelo was a three-time All American and won the Jostens award in his senior year.
Hancock from Colby is a close 2nd. He also was a three-time All American. Scored almost 2,700 career points.
Yeah, when I thought about it some more after I'd made the post, I realized that Nogelo would definitely be on my "Wish I'd Seen Him" list as well. Hancock might be another one, too.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PM
Wow. I had no idea that this would upset you so much.
Upset? Hardly. I was simply being forceful in an attempt to get you to respond, since you didn't respond to me at all in your previous post. I have no emotional investment in this discussion at all.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMI never addressed you directly
Exactly. I addressed
you personally in my response post, and your refusal after that to respond to me in your subsequent post -- instead, you addressed CCIWchamps, who had bowed out of the discussion several days previous -- is what caused me to ratchet up the volume in my last post.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMand I feel like you took it personal since I meant it to be towards CCIW, not you.
I can assure you that I didn't take it personally. I was simply puzzled as to why you were addressing CCIWchamps regarding a discussion that had already dead-ended, rather than addressing me. After all, I was the one who was directly challenging your new argument. As I said, I figured that I had to turn up the volume in order to get your attention.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMI never questioned your knowledge, so dont make me out to be some kind of arrogant jerk.
See, here's the thing: I wish that you
had questioned my knowledge. Or, for that matter, conceded my knowledge. Or made any sort of response at all to my challenge to you. And who is making you out to be an arrogant jerk? Not me. You're reading things into my post that aren't there. We're just two guys having a dialogue about basketball players ... which is all that I wanted in the first place.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMIf you don't think that what I said was true, that's ok, but you can't tell me that Im "Dead Wrong" since I may think your dead wrong, its an opinion, live with it.
As I've indicated, the "dead wrong" bit was an attempt to goad you into responding to me. Mission accomplished. ;)
I'm well aware that what we're discussing falls into the realm of opinion. I've already said twice within this thread that ranking players is a subjective process to a large degree. But here's the thing:
Not every opinion is equal. Now, don't misread this as an attempt to "put you in your place" or anything like that, but some perspectives are worth more than others when it comes to judging basketball players.
We would all agree that the opinion of a coach carries more weight than that of a fan, right? But it's also true that the opinion of one fan may be worth more (or less) than that of another fan. Mind you, I'm not setting myself up to be some sort of ultimate expert. I see myself as one of those students of the game who is always learning something new about it. But I
do have some background when it comes to gauging D3 talent, as I've already indicated. I've given my credentials. I'd like to see yours. How long have you been watching D3 ball? How many games do you see per season? Where do you see those games (since we know that not all D3 regions are created equal)? Has your favorite team played Wheaton during the Raymond era? Have you actually seen Raymond play?
In other words, upon what basis are you making your statements about Raymond? How much perspective do you have when it comes to judging the relative worth of D3 superstars? And how much credence should we give to your opinion?
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMI do believe that all the talk has made fans believe that Kent Raymond is so unbelievable he could not have possibly lost in a POY type award. The evidence was the long lost rant by one fan.
One fan constitutes definitive evidence that CCIW Land has lost its collective mind when it comes to Kent Raymond? Come on, man. CCIWchamps is a lone wolf. Other CCIW fans have chastised him for driving the Raymond vs. Bartolotta argument into the ground. Plus, several CCIW Chat posters have said that, while they think that Raymond is likely the superior player, they don't see the d3hoops.com POY award as a hill to die upon -- particularly since very few of us have seen Bartolotta play.
Your dismissal of the perspective of CCIW fans based upon one dissenting poster's rants isn't valid.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMAnd no, I am not starting a new argument, it is true in all conferences.
Yes, it
is a new argument, because it's no longer about Raymond vs. Bartolotta. It's now about the collective ability of CCIW fans to keep a sense of perspective about Raymond (and, by implication, any other CCIW superstar). The fact that you're now saying that any league's fans could be just as easily duped doesn't change the fact that it's still a new argument.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMEvery conference has a strong preference towards their top players, its part of being a fan, and I thought that may have happened with Raymond a little, not to the extent you made it out to be.
I think that your point is valid in theory. But it seems to me that you've taken a valid theory and transposed it onto a particular player without offering any evidence that the theory fits the player. That's why I want to see your credentials. If you have seen Raymond play, and if you have the sort of extensive D3 background that allows you to make the sweeping judgment that an entire league's worth of fans have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Raymond hype,
then perhaps your theory becomes a legitimate possibility.
Meanwhile, however, you have a lot of evidence to refute:
* The universal praise of Raymond's game among CCIW fans, most of whom have seen Raymond play in person multiple times and many of whom have no motivation to tout him simply because he played for one of the league's teams. As I've said, I'm one example of a CCIW fan who is disinclined by the nature of my school's rivalry with Wheaton to tout a Wheaton player without due cause; North Central insider fan AndOne is another CCIW Chat regular who has no warm feelings for Wheaton whatsoever, but who will nevertheless readily give Raymond his props. In other words, rather than being excessively swayed by hype, there are some amongst us on CCIW Chat who are more inclined to
challenge the hype -- if we didn't feel that the hype surrounding Raymond was justified, that is.
* Raymond's got a lot of coach-derived credentials in his favor. He's one of only three CCIW players in the history of the league's MOP award to win it three times -- and the other two, Jack Sikma and Michael Harper, were 6'9 players who went on to the NBA after college. He's also one of only thirteen D3 players to ever be named an NABC All-American three times, and of those thirteen only three have ever been named to the first team three times: The aforementioned Mike Nogelo of Williams (1989-91), Irv Johnson of Scranton (1978-80) ... and Kent Raymond. Are you comfortable lumping all of those coaches in with the CCIW crowd of those who've been duped by the Raymond hype?
* The folks who follow D3 from coast-to-coast more than anyone else -- Pat Coleman and his minions on this website -- have named Kent Raymond a d3hoops.com first-team All-American in two separate seasons. Only eight other players have ever received that distinction.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:10:03 PMRemember, I still think he is the most valuable of all DIII players, so don't make it out to seem like I am anti Raymond or CCIW, cause thats how Im taking all this. I KNOW that he is a fantastic player.
Quote from: Scrub023 on March 28, 2009, 08:14:27 PM
And I also think he deserved to be the DIII Player of the year.
None of this seems to make any sense given everything else that you've said. So he's overpraised by CCIW folks who've bought into the hype ... and yet at the same time he's the best player in D3 and deserved to win the award rather than Bartolotta? Which is it? If he's the best player in the land, it hardly seems plausible to describe him as overrated.
Please be assured that I'm not doing this just to bust your chops, Scrub. All I wanted was to initiate a discussion. I'm genuinely glad that you're finally taking me up on it. That's what this site's message board is all about.
Quote from: thundermike on March 29, 2009, 10:29:49 PM
Raymond clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF5MMi3CuD8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtfX0ofy4YY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH72KCacLII&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w9_2oGZxGA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqgC5zm-7rk&feature=related
I also saw a clip of Raymond scoring the final bucket before half against platteville. That's a great clip if anyone can find it again.
Greg, you gotta stop referring to my boy Jack Sikma as 6'9". He was that height when recruited, but he was still a growing boy! According to Coach Bridges, he graduated at 6'11.5" (which he rounded up to 7'0", since "7-footers get paid more"! ;D
Does my question require credentials? I meant to ask the question to the regulars, since I am not one of them and dont have the knowledge they do.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 30, 2009, 03:11:00 PM
I'd like to see yours. How long have you been watching D3 ball? How many games do you see per season? Where do you see those games (since we know that not all D3 regions are created equal)? Has your favorite team played Wheaton during the Raymond era? Have you actually seen Raymond play?
In other words, upon what basis are you making your statements about Raymond? How much perspective do you have when it comes to judging the relative worth of D3 superstars? And how much credence should we give to your opinion?
k that Raymond is likely the superior player, they don't see the d3hoops.com POY award as a hill to die upon -- particularly since very few of us have seen Bartolotta play.
Your dismissal of the perspective of CCIW fans based upon one dissenting poster's rants isn't valid.
I have been watching for around 5 years now, mostly in the MWC, and have seen my fair share of GREAT players, ( Kroeger, Braier, Hoch, Ladwig, Kyle McGillis, I think it was Sheperd from Carrol, Raymond, the whole Wash U team). Have I seen Raymond in Person? Yes! I have seen him play in person, against Lawrence, MY FAVORITE TEAM ;) , they WON, LU lost, and I was crushed. How many times did I watch Raymond? Not enough, around 5 times. So I do have some evidence of being somewhat knowledgeable on the subject.
I understand how I came off on the whole CCIW fan perspective, and I was wrong to judge you all. Did I?
You did get my attention, and I hope this info keeps me off the chopping block, for now ;) .
Quote from: USee on March 30, 2009, 03:38:25 PM
I also saw a clip of Raymond scoring the final bucket before half against platteville. That's a great clip if anyone can find it again.
It's in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpibLR667I
Another good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxeAN6WJGuc
C-Champs, that's the clip. It's the last play of 4 and raymond's move to beat the halftime buzzer was ridiculous. Great clip. Thanks for finding it.
Quote from: sac on March 26, 2009, 01:46:55 PM
In a related story the makers of Elmers glue reported record profits today sighting lower raw material costs. Quoting CEO John Windfall, "We don't know what happened, all of the sudden in March the cost of horse carcuses dropped like a rock. It was something we didn't plan for." When asked if he saw prices continueing to stay low he said "I'd like to think the market will stabilize and we'll get back to a normal operating environment, but I just can't predict whats going on in the Midwest, someone's killing a lot of horses, for now I guess we benefit."
I enjoyed this- not sure how I missed it before. Technically, it's just one horse, which can't affect supply and demand too much, eh? ;)
Or that we won't turn the horse over to the glue factory... perhaps we're driving UP the price of glue raw materials? ???
We'll turn it around by April.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: chairman on March 26, 2009, 11:27:14 PM
Greg-
Can you give your five?
Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind. If I had seen these guys, my list might've been different. Then again, it might not have been different at all.
The greatest D3 player I ever saw was Michael Harper, hands down. After that, I'd say that there's a pool that consists of Derrick Rowland, Michael Thomas, Modzel Greer, Blaise Bugajski, Justyne Monegain, Wayne Dunning, Steve Iannarino, Dana Janssen, Michael Starks, Michael Barach, Kermit Sharp, Robert Brown, Chris Fite, Steve Honderd, Bryan Crabtree, Korey Coon, Derek Reich, Richard Melzer, and Kent Raymond. I won't rank them, but Raymond's definitely in the upper half of that crew, in fact probably in the top third of it as well. So perhaps I should've said "top ten" instead of "top five".
There's a ton of amazing players I've seen who're not on that list -- Tiny Green, Steve Keenan, Max Artis, Tony Jordan, Mark Linde, Andre McKoy, Rosey Bullock, Brendan Mitchell, Lou Stevens, Jeff Kuehl, Brad Baldridge, Ricky Spicer, Wade Gugino, Eric Elliott, Charles Woods, Kirk Anderson, Chris Simich, Aaron Winkle, Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, Jeremy Veenstra, Ryan Knuppel, Chris Jeffries, Drew Carstens, Seth Hauben, Joel Kolmodin, Travis Dupree, Jason Kalsow, Nick Bennett, Keelan Amelianovich, Adam Dauksas, Chris Martin, Larry Welton, Troy Ruths, Nate Hainje, and Steve Djurickovic among them -- whom I'd put just a slot or two below those guys. What's frightening is that Djurickovic is on that list, and he still has two years left in his career. The overall body of work that Sean Wallis has put up in the games in which I've seen him play don't warrant his inclusion on this list, but if he comes back next season and plays like he did in the Wheaton sectional he'll definitely be on here as well.
Then there's guys whom I only saw once or maybe twice -- players such as Brian Agler, Ed Jachim, Jason Qua, Dale Turnquist, Ty Evans, Duane Bosma, Joel Holstege, Tim Dworak, Bryan Nelson, Doug Espenson, and Jesse Reimink -- who didn't wow me but whom I realize are much better than the impression that they left upon me. Basketball's the kind of game where you can see a superstar once on what turns out to be a rare off-night and be left with the impression that he's not a superstar at all. That's why it's important not to take too narrow a view of a player whom you only see play once if his credentials are either much better or much worse than that single game's worth of impressions.
This is all just my deeply subjective take, of course.
No Chris Braier either....... ???
Rosters were announced today for the NABC/Hershey's All-Star Game to be played at the Final Four this weekend. In all, only 20 players were selected, that comprise two teams: The Hershey's All-Stars and The Reese's All-Stars. Jimmy Bartolotta is on the Hershey's All-Star team, which appears to be the weaker of the two teams. The Reese's All-Stars have Tyrese Rice from BC, Alex Ruoff from WVU, BJ Raymond from Xavier, Alfred Aboya from UCLA, Marcus Landry from Wisconsin, and Josh Heytvelt from Gonzaga and they are coached by Bruce Weber and Matt Painter. The Hershey's team doesnt have any really big name players and they are coached by Nolan Richardson and Mike Anderson.
Full release: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/Hersheys.pdf
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
Quote from: chairman on March 26, 2009, 11:27:14 PM
Greg-
Can you give your five?
Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind. If I had seen these guys, my list might've been different. Then again, it might not have been different at all.
The greatest D3 player I ever saw was Michael Harper, hands down. After that, I'd say that there's a pool that consists of Derrick Rowland, Michael Thomas, Modzel Greer, Blaise Bugajski, Justyne Monegain, Wayne Dunning, Steve Iannarino, Dana Janssen, Michael Starks, Michael Barach, Kermit Sharp, Robert Brown, Chris Fite, Steve Honderd, Bryan Crabtree, Korey Coon, Derek Reich, Richard Melzer, and Kent Raymond. I won't rank them, but Raymond's definitely in the upper half of that crew, in fact probably in the top third of it as well. So perhaps I should've said "top ten" instead of "top five".
There's a ton of amazing players I've seen who're not on that list -- Tiny Green, Steve Keenan, Max Artis, Tony Jordan, Mark Linde, Andre McKoy, Rosey Bullock, Brendan Mitchell, Lou Stevens, Jeff Kuehl, Brad Baldridge, Ricky Spicer, Wade Gugino, Eric Elliott, Charles Woods, Kirk Anderson, Chris Simich, Aaron Winkle, Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, Jeremy Veenstra, Ryan Knuppel, Chris Jeffries, Drew Carstens, Seth Hauben, Joel Kolmodin, Travis Dupree, Jason Kalsow, Nick Bennett, Keelan Amelianovich, Adam Dauksas, Chris Martin, Larry Welton, Troy Ruths, Nate Hainje, and Steve Djurickovic among them -- whom I'd put just a slot or two below those guys. What's frightening is that Djurickovic is on that list, and he still has two years left in his career. The overall body of work that Sean Wallis has put up in the games in which I've seen him play don't warrant his inclusion on this list, but if he comes back next season and plays like he did in the Wheaton sectional he'll definitely be on here as well.
Then there's guys whom I only saw once or maybe twice -- players such as Brian Agler, Ed Jachim, Jason Qua, Dale Turnquist, Ty Evans, Duane Bosma, Joel Holstege, Tim Dworak, Bryan Nelson, Doug Espenson, and Jesse Reimink -- who didn't wow me but whom I realize are much better than the impression that they left upon me. Basketball's the kind of game where you can see a superstar once on what turns out to be a rare off-night and be left with the impression that he's not a superstar at all. That's why it's important not to take too narrow a view of a player whom you only see play once if his credentials are either much better or much worse than that single game's worth of impressions.
This is all just my deeply subjective take, of course.
Greg,
Here's a couple of players that didn't make your list. Maybe they were before your time, but they were 2 of the best D3 stars I've ever seen play. Randy Smith from Buffalo State, who was drafted by the Buffalo Braves in 1971. Randy could shoot with the best of them and is regarded as the best shooting guard the Braves ever had. Holds the team record for steals in a game(8, which he did on 5 occasions) and season(203). Was also the MVP of the 1978 NBA All Star game.
Mike Deane who played for Potsdam State in 1972-73-74. Mike was a 2 time Small College All-American in '73 and '74 and was drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks. Mike was one of the greatest passers I've seen at any level. He finished his 3 year career as Potsdam's career scoring (1,447) and assists (805) leader and established records for career scoring average (18.0 ppg), most points in a game (42) and most assists in a game (23). He was the head coach at Siena College, Marquette University and Lamar University and led all 3 teams to the NCAA tournament. He is currently the head coach at Wagner University. In his 23 years as a Division 1 head coach he has racked up 408 wins.
And I'm pretty sure if you had seen Leroy Witherspoon play he would have made your list. He was a pleasure to watch.
Magicman - likely players you mentioned were not mentioned by Greg as they were pre D3, or on the cusp of such - I am intrigued though as you mentioned 3 players from upstate NY - is that your background? I played and then coached at RPI late 60' s through late 70's and am always looking to exchange stories from that era/geography......
Quote from: magicman on April 01, 2009, 04:32:39 AM
Greg,
Here's a couple of players that didn't make your list. Maybe they were before your time, but they were 2 of the best D3 stars I've ever seen play. Randy Smith from Buffalo State, who was drafted by the Buffalo Braves in 1971. Randy could shoot with the best of them and is regarded as the best shooting guard the Braves ever had. Holds the team record for steals in a game(8, which he did on 5 occasions) and season(203). Was also the MVP of the 1978 NBA All Star game.
He didn't make my list because he was not a D3 player. I know all about Randy Smith, though. As a kid growing up in the Syracuse area I was a big Braves fan, so I was an enthusiastic supporter of Smith, Don May, Elmore Smith, Bob McAdoo, Bob Kauffman, and Ernie D.
Quote from: magicman on April 01, 2009, 04:32:39 AM
Mike Deane who played for Potsdam State in 1972-73-74. Mike was a 2 time Small College All-American in '73 and '74 and was drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks. Mike was one of the greatest passers I've seen at any level. He finished his 3 year career as Potsdam's career scoring (1,447) and assists (805) leader and established records for career scoring average (18.0 ppg), most points in a game (42) and most assists in a game (23). He was the head coach at Siena College, Marquette University and Lamar University and led all 3 teams to the NCAA tournament. He is currently the head coach at Wagner University. In his 23 years as a Division 1 head coach he has racked up 408 wins.
Also not D3. The first season of D3 basketball was 1974-75.
I was a Big St. Louis Spirits fan. Where is my Fly Williams jersey? Fontbonne started their program in the same facility that the Hawks used as their practice facility. The Hut on the campus of Concordia. Some great pics in a new coffee table book just out.
Great days of pro ball in the STL. :'(
I am sure there is nothing sweeter for Greg than someone saying "Maybe they were before your time". Makes old timers like him feel young again. Unfortunately it's not true. Only King D predates Greg I'm afraid. ;)
Quote from: USee on April 01, 2009, 10:59:22 PM
I am sure there is nothing sweeter for Greg than someone saying "Maybe they were before your time". Makes old timers like him feel young again. Unfortunately it's not true. Only King D predates Greg I'm afraid. ;)
Alas, there are
many of us older than Greg! :(
e.g., He is too young to have seen Jack Sikma; I graduated 4 years before Jack enrolled. :o
Quote from: fcnews on April 01, 2009, 02:51:19 PM
I was a Big St. Louis Spirits fan. Where is my Fly Williams jersey? Fontbonne started their program in the same facility that the Hawks used as their practice facility. The Hut on the campus of Concordia. Some great pics in a new coffee table book just out.
Great days of pro ball in the STL. :'(
The basketball court that was used by the Spirits found its home in the Brownwood Coliseum in Brownwood, TX, home court for the Howard Payne Yellow Jackets. The court was so bad by 2007, that the city of Brownwood and several local benefactors had to replace it for HPU to host a Sectional.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 01, 2009, 10:56:05 AM
Quote from: magicman on April 01, 2009, 04:32:39 AM
Greg,
Here's a couple of players that didn't make your list. Maybe they were before your time, but they were 2 of the best D3 stars I've ever seen play. Randy Smith from Buffalo State, who was drafted by the Buffalo Braves in 1971. Randy could shoot with the best of them and is regarded as the best shooting guard the Braves ever had. Holds the team record for steals in a game(8, which he did on 5 occasions) and season(203). Was also the MVP of the 1978 NBA All Star game.
He didn't make my list because he was not a D3 player. I know all about Randy Smith, though. As a kid growing up in the Syracuse area I was a big Braves fan, so I was an enthusiastic supporter of Smith, Don May, Elmore Smith, Bob McAdoo, Bob Kauffman, and Ernie D.
Quote from: magicman on April 01, 2009, 04:32:39 AM
Mike Deane who played for Potsdam State in 1972-73-74. Mike was a 2 time Small College All-American in '73 and '74 and was drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks. Mike was one of the greatest passers I've seen at any level. He finished his 3 year career as Potsdam's career scoring (1,447) and assists (805) leader and established records for career scoring average (18.0 ppg), most points in a game (42) and most assists in a game (23). He was the head coach at Siena College, Marquette University and Lamar University and led all 3 teams to the NCAA tournament. He is currently the head coach at Wagner University. In his 23 years as a Division 1 head coach he has racked up 408 wins.
Also not D3. The first season of D3 basketball was 1974-75.
Picky Picky Picky. ;) I know it wasn't called D3 back then but still talking about the same level of hoops. In fact the SUNYAC schools were smaller then than they are now. I can see why they weren't on your D3 list though. Glad to hear you were a fan of Randy and the Braves. Wish I could have seen all the D3 stars you have.
2007 Wow Ralph, hard to believe it lasted that long. All the time it spent above the ice rink. Not to mentioned the last years when I'm sure it was snawed on by rats the size of house pets. But, The Arena was a great place for concerts. I can still vividly remember the great performances in the Final Four. Marvin Barnes in his full length mink coat, signing autographs after a game. Wow there were some great players that played on that floor.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 01, 2009, 10:56:05 AM
I know all about Randy Smith, though. As a kid growing up in the Syracuse areaI was a big Braves fan, so I was an enthusiastic supporter of Smith, Don May, Elmore Smith, Bob McAdoo, Bob Kauffman, and Ernie D.
We were practically neighbors back then, as I grew up only 65 miles away in the Watertown-Carthage area. Spent many Friday and Saturday nights in the summer of '67 at the Red Dog Saloon in Manlius. The house band that summer was some college buddies from Potsdam St. You may or may not remember the place as it might have been history by the time you were drinking age. ;D And of course there was always the obligatory trip to the State fair every summer. Ah, the good old days.
Quote from: hopefan on April 01, 2009, 08:21:34 AM
Magicman - likely players you mentioned were not mentioned by Greg as they were pre D3, or on the cusp of such - I am intrigued though as you mentioned 3 players from upstate NY - is that your background? I played and then coached at RPI late 60' s through late 70's and am always looking to exchange stories from that era/geography......
hopefan,
Yes it is. Did you ever play against Dave Healy from SLU? '67 and '68 I believe. Was a small college All American. Great jump shooter, and rebounder. Drove hard to the basket, was very physical and played much bigger than the 6'2" that he was.
And you might have coached against a good friend of mine, Joe Cardany, who went to Union from '77 to '81. Joe was a D3 All American in 1981. He graduated as Union's all-time leading scorer with 1790 pts and held that record for 21 years despite playing in the era of no 3 pt shot. Had there been 3 pointers he would still hold the record I believe.
Magic -
I kind of skirted both those guys - if Healy graduated in 68, that would have been my freshman year, and frosh back then were limited to 3 years varsity.... Cardeny would have been a frosh or a soph my last year of coaching, I remember the name, but probably from reading about him after I left coaching. Names I remember were a guard from SLU named Francis, who made the All Conference team with me as the guards in my senior year 1971 - also remember a forward named Hughes from SLU - mid 70's - a strong 6'4" forward- Union had Jimmy Tedesco when I played, flashy curly haired explosive guard - and Bill Carmody when I was coaching - (He has coached at Princeton and Northwestern) - also remember the big guy from Hobart with the great name - Carmen Genovese - and the 3 Panaggios at Brockport (pop and 2 sons)- we played there in the first NCAA D3 tourney in74-75 (and got beat, though we beat Albany St the next night)
great coaches when I was coaching and playing - Dick Sauers at Albany, Gary Walters at Union, Paul Evans at SLU (later to Pitt), Bill Kalbaugh at RPI, and a very young Mike Neer at Rochester.. oh and Murphy was just starting at Hamilton before Hamilton was good -
another thing to remember is the various gyms - Union with the 'elevated' floor and deadspots - and 'bandboxes' at RPI, Williams, St Lawrence, Hamilton - running down the narrow fire escape to get on the Rochester floor- the unbelievable scenic trips up to Plattsburgh, SLU, Clarkson...
Good memories.....
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 01, 2009, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: USee on April 01, 2009, 10:59:22 PM
I am sure there is nothing sweeter for Greg than someone saying "Maybe they were before your time". Makes old timers like him feel young again. Unfortunately it's not true. Only King D predates Greg I'm afraid. ;)
Alas, there are many of us older than Greg! :(
e.g., He is too young to have seen Jack Sikma; I graduated 4 years before Jack enrolled. :o
Based upon the various CCIW Chat regulars I have met over the years, I'd say that I'm either right at the median age for the room's regular contributors, or a just a little bit older than it. There have been times on CCIW Chat when Bob Quillman has been kidded for his youth, and Bob's now old enough to have run for president this past year. As d3boards.com rooms go, CCIW Chat is definitely
Matlock in a sea of
Gossip Girls.
Unfortunately, there aren't many other rooms on d3boards.com where I can claim to not be superannuated.
Quote from: magicman on April 02, 2009, 01:22:51 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 01, 2009, 10:56:05 AM
I know all about Randy Smith, though. As a kid growing up in the Syracuse areaI was a big Braves fan, so I was an enthusiastic supporter of Smith, Don May, Elmore Smith, Bob McAdoo, Bob Kauffman, and Ernie D.
We were practically neighbors back then, as I grew up only 65 miles away in the Watertown-Carthage area. Spent many Friday and Saturday nights in the summer of '67 at the Red Dog Saloon in Manlius. The house band that summer was some college buddies from Potsdam St. You may or may not remember the place as it might have been history by the time you were drinking age. ;D And of course there was always the obligatory trip to the State fair every summer. Ah, the good old days.
Anyone who grew up in Watertown/Carthage has my sympathies. I mean, man, I thought that
I had to suffer through interminable snowstorms every winter!
I graduated from Liverpool H.S. in '79, so the Red Dog Saloon was both before my time and on the opposite side of the city. Most of my bar experiences in CNY involved various establishments on the Hill during visits home when I was a recent post-collegian, since SU bars seem to be the best thing Syracuse has going for it when you're an early-twentysomething.
The State Fair was a major highlight of the year, of course, if you grew up in the Syracuse area.
Quote from: chairman on March 26, 2009, 11:27:14 PM
Greg-
Can you give your five?
I hav five for u wat about Grant Glover( Rust College), David Hicks (Centre),Toney Seay(Averett),Tim Garrett(Emory College),and Marvin Macklin(North Caroline Wesleyan)
I was just watching the Final Four Festivities on ESPN and John Grotberg just shot a 17 in the 3 point contest. I dont think that is going to get him to the next round, but not a bad showing for the only d3 contestant.
Update: Grotberg missed the semifinals by 2 points. 4th place had 19 points.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 02, 2009, 02:05:57 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 01, 2009, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: USee on April 01, 2009, 10:59:22 PM
I am sure there is nothing sweeter for Greg than someone saying "Maybe they were before your time". Makes old timers like him feel young again. Unfortunately it's not true. Only King D predates Greg I'm afraid. ;)
Alas, there are many of us older than Greg! :(
e.g., He is too young to have seen Jack Sikma; I graduated 4 years before Jack enrolled. :o
Based upon the various CCIW Chat regulars I have met over the years, I'd say that I'm either right at the median age for the room's regular contributors, or a just a little bit older than it. There have been times on CCIW Chat when Bob Quillman has been kidded for his youth, and Bob's now old enough to have run for president this past year. As d3boards.com rooms go, CCIW Chat is definitely Matlock in a sea of Gossip Girls.
Unfortunately, there aren't many other rooms on d3boards.com where I can claim to not be superannuated.
Quote from: magicman on April 02, 2009, 01:22:51 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 01, 2009, 10:56:05 AM
I know all about Randy Smith, though. As a kid growing up in the Syracuse area I was a big Braves fan, so I was an enthusiastic supporter of Smith, Don May, Elmore Smith, Bob McAdoo, Bob Kauffman, and Ernie D.
We were practically neighbors back then, as I grew up only 65 miles away in the Watertown-Carthage area. Spent many Friday and Saturday nights in the summer of '67 at the Red Dog Saloon in Manlius. The house band that summer was some college buddies from Potsdam St. You may or may not remember the place as it might have been history by the time you were drinking age. ;D And of course there was always the obligatory trip to the State fair every summer. Ah, the good old days.
Anyone who grew up in Watertown/Carthage has my sympathies. I mean, man, I thought that I had to suffer through interminable snowstorms every winter!
I graduated from Liverpool H.S. in '79, so the Red Dog Saloon was both before my time and on the opposite side of the city. Most of my bar experiences in CNY involved various establishments on the Hill during visits home when I was a recent post-collegian, since SU bars seem to be the best thing Syracuse has going for it when you're an early-twentysomething.
The State Fair was a major highlight of the year, of course, if you grew up in the Syracuse area.
'79 now I do feel old. But, Hopefan gave a clue to his age. Wow ;D ::)
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 09:21:03 PM
I was just watching the Final Four Festivities on ESPN and John Grotberg just shot a 17 in the 3 point contest. I dont think that is going to get him to the next round, but not a bad showing for the only d3 contestant.
Update: Grotberg missed the semifinals by 2 points. 4th place had 19 points.
I'd of taken Fontbonne's Patrick McCoy and Chris Forrest against them all.
Here is a link to DIIINews' year end newsletter.
http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/D3NApril09FINAL.pdf
Congrats to Kent Raymond for being named player of the year.
Sean Wallis and Jeff Skemp, however, do not appear on any of the 5 all-america teams (Djurickovic didnt make any team either, although all three did get listed as one of the 35 Honorble mention players). And since when was Justin Short in the conversation about being one of the top 5 players in d3? I am not trying to take anything away from him, but I had not heard any discussion about him being a candidate for the first team, or as an all-american for that matter.
To me, though, the biggest head-scratcher is Skemp. He was named d3hoops and NABC west region player of the year (he was also named 1st team all-america by both). He was also named co-WIAC player of the year by the WIAC coaches, along with DJ Marsh. However, DIIINews named Marsh to 1st-team All-America and didnt name Skemp to any of the 5 teams? I am not saying Marsh shouldnt be an All-American, I am just saying that if Marsh is 1st team, you would expect Skemp to be up there also (considering both had similar numbers: both scored 19 ppg, Marsh had more rebounds and steals, Skemp shot much better from the floor and had more blocks; while Skemp was on a better team).
In addition to this glaring omission, the also misspelled several players names. I understand how someone could misspell a tough name like Chmielowiec, but how do you misspell Kathan (who, by the way, did not make any of the 5 DIIINews teams either)? Do they even proof-read their season-ending publication or does the proof-reader not know enough about dIII basketball to know that those are mistakes? You think that they could find someone to edit their 8 page newsletter (of which 2 are advertisements) since they are charging $40 for a subscription. Anyway, it was my first time looking at the publication and I was a bit disappointed. I also thought it was amusing that they acknowledge NABC given awards (listing it in Raymond's bio), but completely ignore his awards from d3hoops.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 10:58:01 PM
Here is a link to DIIINews' year end newsletter.
http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/D3NApril09FINAL.pdf
Congrats to Kent Raymond for being named player of the year.
Sean Wallis and Jeff Skemp, however, do not appear on any of the 5 all-america teams (Djurickovic didnt make any team either, although all three did get listed as one of the 35 Honorble mention players). And since when was Justin Short in the conversation about being one of the top 5 players in d3? I am not trying to take anything away from him, but I had not heard any discussion about him being a candidate for the first team, or as an all-american for that matter.
To me, though, the biggest head-scratcher is Skemp. He was named d3hoops and NABC west region player of the year (he was also named 1st team all-america by both). He was also named co-WIAC player of the year by the WIAC coaches, along with DJ Marsh. However, DIIINews named Marsh to 1st-team All-America and didnt name Skemp to any of the 5 teams? I am not saying Marsh shouldnt be an All-American, I am just saying that if Marsh is 1st team, you would expect Skemp to be up there also (considering both had similar numbers: both scored 19 ppg, Marsh had more rebounds and steals, Skemp shot much better from the floor and had more blocks; while Skemp was on a better team).
In addition to this glaring omission, the also misspelled several players names. I understand how someone could misspell a tough name like Chmielowiec, but how do you misspell Kathan (who, by the way, did not make any of the 5 DIIINews teams either)? Do they even proof-read their season-ending publication or does the proof-reader not know enough about dIII basketball to know that those are mistakes? You think that they could find someone to edit their 8 page newsletter (of which 2 are advertisements) since they are charging $40 for a subscription. Anyway, it was my first time looking at the publication and I was a bit disappointed. I also thought it was amusing that they acknowledge NABC given awards (listing it in Raymond's bio), but completely ignore his awards from d3hoops.
My guess would be that they view D3hoops as competition and and don't want to give their competitor any ink in their publication. They also give Jimmy B a write up for his Jostens award but fail to mention he was the D3hoops POY. I agree the Skemp omission defies logic and putting Bartolotta on the 2nd team instead of the 1st wasn't too swift either.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 09:21:03 PM
I was just watching the Final Four Festivities on ESPN and John Grotberg just shot a 17 in the 3 point contest. I dont think that is going to get him to the next round, but not a bad showing for the only d3 contestant.
Update: Grotberg missed the semifinals by 2 points. 4th place had 19 points.
The shots from straightaway were killers, I think he missed all 5 of those. Otherwise he has a nice looking stroke.
Made sure to pop the jersey for everyone to see. :D
Quote from: magicman on April 03, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 10:58:01 PM
Here is a link to DIIINews' year end newsletter.
http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/D3NApril09FINAL.pdf
Congrats to Kent Raymond for being named player of the year.
Sean Wallis and Jeff Skemp, however, do not appear on any of the 5 all-america teams (Djurickovic didnt make any team either, although all three did get listed as one of the 35 Honorble mention players). And since when was Justin Short in the conversation about being one of the top 5 players in d3? I am not trying to take anything away from him, but I had not heard any discussion about him being a candidate for the first team, or as an all-american for that matter.
To me, though, the biggest head-scratcher is Skemp. He was named d3hoops and NABC west region player of the year (he was also named 1st team all-america by both). He was also named co-WIAC player of the year by the WIAC coaches, along with DJ Marsh. However, DIIINews named Marsh to 1st-team All-America and didnt name Skemp to any of the 5 teams? I am not saying Marsh shouldnt be an All-American, I am just saying that if Marsh is 1st team, you would expect Skemp to be up there also (considering both had similar numbers: both scored 19 ppg, Marsh had more rebounds and steals, Skemp shot much better from the floor and had more blocks; while Skemp was on a better team).
In addition to this glaring omission, the also misspelled several players names. I understand how someone could misspell a tough name like Chmielowiec, but how do you misspell Kathan (who, by the way, did not make any of the 5 DIIINews teams either)? Do they even proof-read their season-ending publication or does the proof-reader not know enough about dIII basketball to know that those are mistakes? You think that they could find someone to edit their 8 page newsletter (of which 2 are advertisements) since they are charging $40 for a subscription. Anyway, it was my first time looking at the publication and I was a bit disappointed. I also thought it was amusing that they acknowledge NABC given awards (listing it in Raymond's bio), but completely ignore his awards from d3hoops.
My guess would be that they view D3hoops as competition and and don't want to give their competitor any ink in their publication. They also give Jimmy B a write up for his Jostens award but fail to mention he was the D3hoops POY. I agree the Skemp omission defies logic and putting Bartolotta on the 2nd team instead of the 1st wasn't too swift either.
I agree with your assessment, but they also dont mention Bartolotta being named NABC player of the year, while they mention Kent Raymond being named NABC first-team. That makes me think that they not only are not reporting competitors' awards but they are also not reported awards that do not agree with their assessments (or so it appears). I don't see why else they would mention NABC awards for one player but not for the other.
Quote from: sac on April 03, 2009, 12:41:06 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 09:21:03 PM
I was just watching the Final Four Festivities on ESPN and John Grotberg just shot a 17 in the 3 point contest. I dont think that is going to get him to the next round, but not a bad showing for the only d3 contestant.
Update: Grotberg missed the semifinals by 2 points. 4th place had 19 points.
The shots from straightaway were killers, I think he missed all 5 of those. Otherwise he has a nice looking stroke.
Made sure to pop the jersey for everyone to see. :D
Yeah, he really struggled from the top of the key, which is usually considered the easiest spot on the floor to shoot from. He was 0/6 points (0/5 shots) from the top and was 17/24 points everywhere else. Would have been nice if he could have made it to the semi's to represent for dIII.
It will be interesting to see how Bartolotta does tomorrow, although I am keeping my expectations reasonable considering the competition. His best chance to succeed, in my opinion, is if: a) Bartolotta gets some playing time, and b) if Woodside (or whoever plays point) is able to get penetration into the paint and draws help D, like he did against Kansas, and Bartolotta has the oppurtunity to shoot some open shots, because he will have the 3-point range of anyone in the game (if his ankle is healed). I dont expect him to be able to out-quick anyone in the game, but, you never know, he may even be able to post up a little because 3 of the 4 guards on the opposing team are 6'1" or shorter (and he is 6'4"). I know I am being overly optimistic in my assessment, but I can't help it. I wish him the best of luck tomorrow.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 03, 2009, 01:19:13 AM
Quote from: magicman on April 03, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
Quote from: hugenerd on April 02, 2009, 10:58:01 PM
Here is a link to DIIINews' year end newsletter.
http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/D3NApril09FINAL.pdf
Congrats to Kent Raymond for being named player of the year.
Sean Wallis and Jeff Skemp, however, do not appear on any of the 5 all-america teams (Djurickovic didnt make any team either, although all three did get listed as one of the 35 Honorble mention players). And since when was Justin Short in the conversation about being one of the top 5 players in d3? I am not trying to take anything away from him, but I had not heard any discussion about him being a candidate for the first team, or as an all-american for that matter.
To me, though, the biggest head-scratcher is Skemp. He was named d3hoops and NABC west region player of the year (he was also named 1st team all-america by both). He was also named co-WIAC player of the year by the WIAC coaches, along with DJ Marsh. However, DIIINews named Marsh to 1st-team All-America and didnt name Skemp to any of the 5 teams? I am not saying Marsh shouldnt be an All-American, I am just saying that if Marsh is 1st team, you would expect Skemp to be up there also (considering both had similar numbers: both scored 19 ppg, Marsh had more rebounds and steals, Skemp shot much better from the floor and had more blocks; while Skemp was on a better team).
In addition to this glaring omission, the also misspelled several players names. I understand how someone could misspell a tough name like Chmielowiec, but how do you misspell Kathan (who, by the way, did not make any of the 5 DIIINews teams either)? Do they even proof-read their season-ending publication or does the proof-reader not know enough about dIII basketball to know that those are mistakes? You think that they could find someone to edit their 8 page newsletter (of which 2 are advertisements) since they are charging $40 for a subscription. Anyway, it was my first time looking at the publication and I was a bit disappointed. I also thought it was amusing that they acknowledge NABC given awards (listing it in Raymond's bio), but completely ignore his awards from d3hoops.
My guess would be that they view D3hoops as competition and and don't want to give their competitor any ink in their publication. They also give Jimmy B a write up for his Jostens award but fail to mention he was the D3hoops POY. I agree the Skemp omission defies logic and putting Bartolotta on the 2nd team instead of the 1st wasn't too swift either.
I agree with your assessment, but they also dont mention Bartolotta being named NABC player of the year, while they mention Kent Raymond being named NABC first-team. That makes me think that they not only are not reporting competitors' awards but they are also not reported awards that do not agree with their assessments (or so it appears). I don't see why else they would mention NABC awards for one player but not for the other.
Yes, you're right. I was so amused they didn't mention his D3hoops POY that I didn't even think about their failure to mention his NABC POY. Doesn't make me want to run out and subscribe to their newsletter.
I only got the chance to see Skemp play twice this year. But, unless they were strictly out of the norm, I'm shocked. His performance against Wheaton was the most dominate performance of any player I saw all season. It wasn't like he was playing a team of undersized players. I considered Weile as one of the better to best post players in the midwest (Ruch is as good). And Skemp did it in his teams biggest game.
IMHO, Aaron Thompson would of been the best D3 choice in the 3 pt contest.
Quote from: fcnews on April 03, 2009, 02:41:47 AM
I only got the chance to see Skemp play twice this year. But, unless they were strictly out of the norm, I'm shocked. His performance against Wheaton was the most dominate performance of any player I saw all season. It wasn't like he was playing a team of undersized players. I considered Weile as one of the better to best post players in the midwest (Ruch is as good). And Skemp did it in his teams biggest game.
IMHO, Aaron Thompson would of been the best D3 choice in the 3 pt contest.
I think, based on watching him play SLU and WashU, I might take the kid from Richard Stockton
And maybe try to sneak Rob Dominiak in who based on the alumni game a couple months ago, can still hit consistently from 30 with little effort
I don't know if the shootout is treated like an all-star game, where it's only seniors because otherwise they'd lose a year of eligibility.
I am pretty sure Grotberg was selected because he has hit the most 3s of any player in NCAA history (across all divisions). He made 526 3s in his career, breaking fellow Grinnell player Jeff Clement's previous record of 516. The most 3s hit by a D1 player is JJ Redick with 457 (although Redick hit that many in 139 games, while Grotberg on played in 96 for his career).
DUH - Thanks Pat. Brain lock.
Hugenerd - I really enjoyed watching Grotberg play when they came to FU this season. But, 157 - 411, not to impressed.
Fontbonne College's Dino McKinney was the first college player to break 400. He had 153 in one season and shot it at 50.9 %. (those figures are based on my memory, but their real close). He only had 17 as a freshmen.
I think the Grinnell pub was a huge factor also. Great kid and don't get me wrong, he can shoot. But, there are better pure shooters in D3 who could represented us better.
Quote from: fcnews on April 03, 2009, 03:47:59 PM
DUH - Thanks Pat. Brain lock.
Hugenerd - I really enjoyed watching Grotberg play when they came to FU this season. But, 157 - 411, not to impressed.
Fontbonne College's Dino McKinney was the first college player to break 400. He had 153 in one season and shot it at 50.9 %. (those figures are based on my memory, but their real close). He only had 17 as a freshmen.
I think the Grinnell pub was a huge factor also. Great kid and don't get me wrong, he can shoot. But, there are better pure shooters in D3 who could represented us better.
I agree with you, but I just think he was invited solely because of that distinction (most 3s in a career)
I was able to watch about 3/4 of the NABC All-Star game today and the Reece's team beat the Hershey's team 105-100. I havent seen a boxscore, but in the part of the game I saw, Bartolotta played about 5 minutes and made a shot. Heytvelt was clearly the best player in the game, he dominated in the second half.
In the middle of the second half, they did a nice feature on Bartolotta, outlining his stats and doing a live interview from the bench. You had your typical questions about being a student at MIT, but it was clear by the last question that the lady doing the interview didnt have a ton of background because she asked him whether he would try ot play in the NBA next year, to which Bartolotta chuckled and answered he was going to try to play in Europe. Anyway, it was nice exposure and I am sure he will have fun receiving his POY award this weekend.
Boxscore for the All-Star game, for those who are interested:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/NABCBox.pdf
Quote from: hugenerd on April 03, 2009, 08:48:07 PM
Boxscore for the All-Star game, for those who are interested:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/NABCBox.pdf
Looks like he doesn't do as well when he doesn't play 37 minutes a game. ::) ;)
That's pretty cool that he gets to play up. Who was the DII POY that also played?
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 04, 2009, 04:16:40 PM
That's pretty cool that he gets to play up. Who was the DII POY that also played?
Josh Bostic of Findlay. He had four points, seven rebounds, and four assists in 20 minutes of play. He also had a couple of steals, but he went 1-7 from the floor.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 04, 2009, 06:52:57 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 04, 2009, 04:16:40 PM
That's pretty cool that he gets to play up. Who was the DII POY that also played?
Josh Bostic of Findlay. He had four points, seven rebounds, and four assists in 20 minutes of play. He also had a couple of steals, but he went 1-7 from the floor.
It'd be really interesting to have an end of the year tournament between different Divisions' Champions, just to see how they stack up. Or maybe just the Divisions under D-I. Kinda like when they used to have in high school soccer, a national tournament between all of the state champions.
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 04, 2009, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on April 03, 2009, 08:48:07 PM
Boxscore for the All-Star game, for those who are interested:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/NABCBox.pdf
Looks like he doesn't do as well when he doesn't play 37 minutes a game. ::) ;)
That's pretty cool that he gets to play up. Who was the DII POY that also played?
Its probably also tough to get a rhythm going when you play for 2 minute stretches four times. I think he would have had a better chance to play on the other team. Weber did a better job of allocating minutes among all his players, only one player played less than 18 minutes and that is because he fouled out in 16 minutes (Bostic, the d2 player, didnt play exceptionally well, shooting 1-7, but still got to play his 20 minutes). Weber essentially subbed in new lines every 4-5 minutes, regardless of the streak the other team went on or how the players were playing.
I still think Bartolotta played pretty well. Richardson played him at the point for half of his minutes and he didnt have any turnovers even though he was matched up against Tyrese Rice. He missed a couple of shots, but it is tough to sit for long stretches and then shoot deep 3s (0-2 3s), and his other miss was a running left-hander that spun out.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 04, 2009, 09:21:53 PM
Quote from: CCIWchamps on April 04, 2009, 04:16:40 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on April 03, 2009, 08:48:07 PM
Boxscore for the All-Star game, for those who are interested:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/gonz/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/NABCBox.pdf
Looks like he doesn't do as well when he doesn't play 37 minutes a game. ::) ;)
That's pretty cool that he gets to play up. Who was the DII POY that also played?
Its probably also tough to get a rhythm going when you play for 2 minute stretches four times. I think he would have had a better chance to play on the other team. Weber did a better job of allocating minutes among all his players, only one player played less than 18 minutes and that is because he fouled out in 16 minutes (Bostic, the d2 player, didnt play exceptionally well, shooting 1-7, but still got to play his 20 minutes). Weber essentially subbed in new lines every 4-5 minutes, regardless of the streak the other team went on or how the players were playing.
I still think Bartolotta played pretty well. Richardson played him at the point for half of his minutes and he didnt have any turnovers even though he was matched up against Tyrese Rice. He missed a couple of shots, but it is tough to sit for long stretches and then shoot deep 3s (0-2 3s), and his other miss was a running left-hander that spun out.
I can't believe I managed to snag -2k for my comments today. Thin skins out here. (I guess I'm misunderstanding how to use the smiley face icons. I thought they were to imply some tongue-in-cheek jesting) Is Bartolotta planning on playing overseas next year? I imagine that with an MIT education and some of the internships he's had, he stands to do pretty well in the business world/real world.
Yes, he does. Word is he may have some interest from Italian clubs because his grandparents are Italian (and something maybe able to be worked out where he doesnt count as a foreign player), but I think he is keeping his options open currently to anywhere that he can play in a good league.
Playing basketball is really once in a lifetime opportunity. If he goes to the business world, it would be nearly impossible for him to come back and play basketball, but it isnt really going to hurt his long-term career if he sees how a basketball career goes for a few years. He will always have his degree. He also has some pretty good contacts by going to MIT. The single-game scoring record he broke this season was previously held by David Koch, who is now the richest denizen of NYC (networth ~$10B). Mr. Koch is a big supporter of MIT and the athletics program, and even gave a talk on the basketball team's alumni day this year (here is a picture of Bartolotta, Koch, MIT President Susan Hockfield, MIT Director of Athletics Julie Soriero, and MIT Basketball Coach Larry Anderson: http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Record-High-Scores_1.jpg (http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Record-High-Scores_1.jpg), here is a picture of Koch talking to the team a few hours before their game on alumni day: http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/5-Centercourt-group.jpg (http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/5-Centercourt-group.jpg)).
Just saw this:
http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/bob_ryan_blog/
Looks like Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe agrees with what I said about Bartolotta's minutes and his overall play.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 05, 2009, 02:15:04 PM
Yes, he does. Word is he may have some interest from Italian clubs because his grandparents are Italian (and something maybe able to be worked out where he doesnt count as a foreign player), but I think he is keeping his options open currently to anywhere that he can play in a good league.
Playing basketball is really once in a lifetime opportunity. If he goes to the business world, it would be nearly impossible for him to come back and play basketball, but it isnt really going to hurt his long-term career if he sees how a basketball career goes for a few years. He will always have his degree. He also has some pretty good contacts by going to MIT. The single-game scoring record he broke this season was previously held by David Koch, who is now the richest denizen of NYC (networth ~$10B). Mr. Koch is a big supporter of MIT and the athletics program, and even gave a talk on the basketball team's alumni day this year (here is a picture of Bartolotta, Koch, MIT President Susan Hockfield, MIT Director of Athletics Julie Soriero, and MIT Basketball Coach Larry Anderson: http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Record-High-Scores_1.jpg (http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/Record-High-Scores_1.jpg), here is a picture of Koch talking to the team a few hours before their game on alumni day: http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/5-Centercourt-group.jpg (http://studentlife.mit.edu/sites/default/files/5-Centercourt-group.jpg)).
That's great for him, I agree. He definitely has some options. Also, that article you linked is a good read. A double major and a minor from MIT will come in handy whenever he decides to start punching the clock. As well as the MIT grad reference you mentioned. I say go for it. and play ball as long as he can, though I assume that is likely the overwhelming opinion of everyone on here anyway. Talk about a cool way to see the world and get some experiences you also may not get once you're later in life.
Quote from: hugenerd on April 05, 2009, 02:15:04 PM
Yes, he does. Word is he may have some interest from Italian clubs because his grandparents are Italian (and something maybe able to be worked out where he doesnt count as a foreign player), but I think he is keeping his options open currently to anywhere that he can play in a good league.
I think that the rule in Serie A (the top league in Italy) is that any player who can claim at least one Italian-born grandparent is considered an Italian national for the league's purposes and therefore doesn't count towards the foreign-player roster restriction. It's this clause that was instrumental in Mike D'Antoni and Vinny Del Negro choosing to play pro ball in Italy.
Quote from: hopefan on April 02, 2009, 08:41:46 AM
Magic -
I kind of skirted both those guys - if Healy graduated in 68, that would have been my freshman year, and frosh back then were limited to 3 years varsity.... Cardeny would have been a frosh or a soph my last year of coaching, I remember the name, but probably from reading about him after I left coaching. Names I remember were a guard from SLU named Francis, who made the All Conference team with me as the guards in my senior year 1971 - also remember a forward named Hughes from SLU - mid 70's - a strong 6'4" forward- Union had Jimmy Tedesco when I played, flashy curly haired explosive guard - and Bill Carmody when I was coaching - (He has coached at Princeton and Northwestern) - also remember the big guy from Hobart with the great name - Carmen Genovese - and the 3 Panaggios at Brockport (pop and 2 sons)- we played there in the first NCAA D3 tourney in74-75 (and got beat, though we beat Albany St the next night)
great coaches when I was coaching and playing - Dick Sauers at Albany, Gary Walters at Union, Paul Evans at SLU (later to Pitt), Bill Kalbaugh at RPI, and a very young Mike Neer at Rochester.. oh and Murphy was just starting at Hamilton before Hamilton was good -
another thing to remember is the various gyms - Union with the 'elevated' floor and deadspots - and 'bandboxes' at RPI, Williams, St Lawrence, Hamilton - running down the narrow fire escape to get on the Rochester floor- the unbelievable scenic trips up to Plattsburgh, SLU, Clarkson...
Good memories.....
hopefan,
Don't know if you've been following a special election that just took place in NY state, but Jimmy Tedisco is running for a congressional seat that was vacated by Democrat Kirsten Gillibrand.(Gillibrand was appointed to the U.S. Senate by the Governor of NY to occupy the seat that Hillary Clinton relinquished to become Sec. of State.) Tedisco, a Republican is currently the minority leader of the NY State Assembly where he has served for the past 27 years. Tedisco is running against a Democrat by the name of Scott Murphy, who is a businessman and political newcomer.The district stretches from the Adirondack Mountains through the Mid-Hudson Valley to about 60 miles north of New York City. The race is widely viewed as the first electoral test of President Obama's popularity and his economic policy. Murphy and national Democrats framed his campaign on the strength of Obama and his economic stimulus plan. Tedisco attacked Murphy for supporting the plan which he said allowed the massive bonuses to AIG. The election took place on Tuesday March 31st and as of today with over 154,000 votes cast it is virtually a dead heat. Reports in the past few days have shown both candidates with the lead but by no more than 50 to 100 votes. It looks like the absentee ballots will decide the race with over 6000 of them having been returned so far. State election officials have agreed to extend the absentee ballot deadline until April 13th instead of the normal April 7th cutoff. As usual both parties are already claiming a victory and hiring lawyers to contest the election, similar to what is going on in Minnesota's contested Senate election between Al Franken and Norm Coleman. (Now over 5 months with no result.) The local papers describe Tedisco as " A picture of state capital politics, with gray streaked hair, dark business suits and tasseled loafers with name recognition on his side. But he has taken heat because he lives outside the district." The district is heavily Republican and carries a voter registration edge of 70,000. Gillibrand was the 1st Democrat in decades to be elected, when she upset scandal tainted incumbent U.S. Rep. John Sweeney. (Who was just arrested again on Sunday for speeding and felony DWI, his 2nd arrest in 18 months.) Once again it looks like Tedisco is going to have to survive an overtime period to win. Incidentally, Tedisco was the player who held all the Union scoring records until Joe Cardany came along and broke them.
Thanks Magic - very interesting read on Jim Tedesco - Jim did a great deal for Union Basketball and the RPI-Union rivalry - his presence, coming from one of the local high schools and bringing great noteriety for being a high scorer in hs really buoyed the attendance at Union... the best crowd I ever played in front of AT the little '87 gym at RPI was the Union game my Junior year - we came in with a good record, had senior guard Mike Kramer play the game of his life, and beat Jimmy and the Dutch. - Unfortunately, my senior year, it was totally a different story!!!!
hopefan,
Just a follow up on the Jimmy Tedisco congressional race. With nearly all the absentee ballots counted Tedisco had fallen behind Democrat Scott Murphy by more than 400 votes. On Friday April 24th Tedisco conceded and Murphy was sworn in early this week. Tough overtime loss for the former Union player.
Ironically enough, the Sweeny scandal broke when a picture got released of the ex congressman boozing it up at a Union fraternity.
I am hoping to see Brandon Shelton from UMD on the preseason all-american team. I felt he should have received postseason honors last year, but somehow slipped under the radar.
He scored 549 points (17.7ppg) last year on a team that advanced to the sweet 16. Lets get him on the list!! Definitely a player to watch!
ANY PREDICTIONS ON PRE-SEASON ALL AMERICANS?
Not to be too obvious, but the few underclassmen from last year's final post-season all americans all seem to be good bets.
Aaron Thompson, Sean Wallis, Steve Djurickovic, DJ Marsh, Richard Jean-Baptiste, Tyler Sanborn.
That's not a bad top 6.
Lots of forwards from New England, all of whom are fairly even, might cancel each other out: in addition to Shelton, Maurice Horton, Jon Pierce, Adam Choice, Blake Schultz, all of whom made all-region last year, are arguably deserving ...
I've heard great things about Horton. How about Shannon from Emerson?
Shannon will do well in the region awards but given the weak conference he plays in and his lack of monster numbers, I doubt he'd get serious all-american consideration. On the other hand, not a super strong year for guards in New England, with many of the top guys from last year graduating (Bartolotta, Rudin, Snyder, Freeman, the RIC guys, Olson, etc.), so he may stand out from the crowd; NESCAC has several quality all-league type guards returning, but none likely to warrant all-american consideration.
Quote from: nescac1 on October 24, 2009, 10:37:23 AM
Shannon will do well in the region awards but given the weak conference he plays in and his lack of monster numbers, I doubt he'd get serious all-american consideration. On the other hand, not a super strong year for guards in New England, with many of the top guys from last year graduating (Bartolotta, Rudin, Snyder, Freeman, the RIC guys, Olson, etc.), so he may stand out from the crowd; NESCAC has several quality all-league type guards returning, but none likely to warrant all-american consideration.
I saw Shannon last year when Emerson played MIT. To be honest, he seemed to have one of his worse games when I saw him, but you could tell why he was a previous small D1 recruit (I think he was at BU previously). The guys is quick and has a very good handle; however, his shot isnt all that quick and not that consistent. You can definitely see how he could play at a higher level because he can penetrate the lane against anybody, so you have to help to stop him before he gets in the lane, and he is a very good passer and very capable at finding his teammates anywhere on the court. However, if you are able to throw bodies at him and get him to pass, Emerson doesnt have too many guys around him that can do damage. I think they had one scorer other than him last year (who played center at 6'3" or so and put up pretty big numbers). This may not be a problem in their league, because Shannon can carve those teams up by himself for the most part, but it is not likely they can do much outside their league unless he gets some more help around him. Regardless what anyone says, people who vote on these awards look a lot at team success. For example, Jimmy Bartolotta was the best player in the NEWMAC for 3 years in a row, and had the numbers to prove it, but he didnt win POY until his senior year when they won 20+ games, won the conference tourney (they finished 2nd in the league in the regular season), and made it to the NCAAs. Unfortunately, that is the nature of these things, people will discount some of his production because of the quality of opponents and how he does against "national-level" opponents.
Sure would be nice to see Chris Blees as a pre-season All American.
He is the only Soph in the history of the SCIAC to be player of the year, and was all region in the beastly west.
He's a 6'5 3/4 man who just has a knack for scoring.
I had the pleasure of playing with him for 2 years, and the kid is the toughest guard ive seen in D3. He can punish smaller guards down low and take bigger 4s off the dribble.
Itll be fun watching him this year!
brandon shelton, umd. preseason all american team!! lets give the man some love, hes going to have a big season.
Looks like all of the fairly-equal New England forwards cancelled each other out, with none making the pre-season All American teams. By the end of the season, I'd be shocked if at least a few out of Schultz, Shelton, Horton, Choice, and Pierce aren't recognized in some fashion, depending in part on team success and whether any of them can put up numbers that separate them from their peers.
Anyone know the last time (if ever) one team had two First team pre-season All-Americans?
Quote from: sac on November 06, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
Anyone know the last time (if ever) one team had two First team pre-season All-Americans?
Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich, IWU, 2006.
But for WashU to take BOTH guard spots (with Steve Djurickovic around) is really impressive.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 06, 2009, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: sac on November 06, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
Anyone know the last time (if ever) one team had two First team pre-season All-Americans?
Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich, IWU, 2006.
But for WashU to take BOTH guard spots (with Steve Djurickovic around) is really impressive.
And Bennett and Kalsow (UW-Stevens Point), 2004-05.
Steve Djurickovic (point-guard) sophomore year stats...
27.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.4 apg
2.3 A:TO
.498 FG
.432 3-pt
.833 FT
Quote from: Titan Q on November 06, 2009, 07:16:18 PM
Steve Djurickovic (point-guard) sophomore year stats...
27.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.4 apg
2.3 A:TO
.498 FG
.432 3-pt
.833 FT
I hear you, but that is the team-factor of these individual awards that is inherently built in. I made the same argument in the past (for a different player) but the truth is, you need to make a splash on the national scene (NCAAs) before you are recognized on the top team.
Quote from: hugenerd on November 06, 2009, 08:35:20 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on November 06, 2009, 07:16:18 PM
Steve Djurickovic (point-guard) sophomore year stats...
27.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.4 apg
2.3 A:TO
.498 FG
.432 3-pt
.833 FT
I hear you, but that is the team-factor of these individual awards that is inherently built in. I made the same argument in the past (for a different player) but the truth is, you need to make a splash on the national scene (NCAAs) before you are recognized on the top team.
There have been plenty of players make both the preseason and final 1st team without "making a splash." Just looking at this year's 1st Team, I don't think D.J. Marsh has ever played a postseason game.
By the way, I do not dispute the selections of Sean Wallis and Aaron Thompson - no brainers.
Thats true. They are both (Djurikovic and Marsh) from respected conferences, which helps them. I guess my statement is more true for good players from not as highly touted conferences, where you need to do something against national level opponents first. Djurikovic was just dropped because of the the strength of the top guards in the nation this year.
It's very difficult to compare players, and Djurickovic vs Wallis is the perfect example...
Steve Djurickovic, 6-3 Jr (Carthage)
27.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.4 apg, 2.3 A:TO
(.498 FG, .432 3-pt, .833 FT)
Sean Wallis, 6-3 Sr (Wash U)
11.1 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 8.1 apg, 3.0 A:TO
(.413 FG, .352 3-pt, .835 FG)
These guys both play the point, but they couldn't be more different. The entire Carthage offense revolves around Djurickovic - he had 416 FGA attempts last year (17 per game). Wallis is your protypical pass first, "floor general" type point-guard - he had "just" 252 FGA per game in 2008-09 (8 per game).
Having seen Wallis play so many times in his career (including in the Sectional and Final Four last year), I do think he is a no-brainer as the 1st Team PG. Just a tremenous leader.
I also think Aaron Thompson has to be on that 1st Team. He might be the best pure shooter in Division III - 96-205 (.468) from 3 last year, even with every team keying on him. Thompson has evolved from a spot-up 3-point shooter to an all-around "scorer" as he's gotten older. Great player.
I've never seen D.J. Marsh play, but I've heard he is great. Still, I think Djurickovic is so good - I mean, those sophomore stats are crazy - that he has to be on that 1st Team. I would have had 3 guards (Wallis, Thompson, Djurickovic)...and in real life, those 3 could easily start together. Djurickovic can play the 1, 2, or 3, and Thompson the 2 or 3.
The one at the end of the season is the real one that counts. I am sure if Djurokovic has another exceptional season he will get serious consideration for the 1st team.
Quote from: Titan Q on November 07, 2009, 08:50:48 AM
I also think Aaron Thompson has to be on that 1st Team. He might be the best pure shooter in Division III - 96-205 (.468) from 3 last year, even with every team keying on him. Thompson has evolved from a spot-up 3-point shooter to an all-around "scorer" as he's gotten older. Great player.
Well, here is Player X who outshot Aaron Thompson from the 3 point arc last year.
Three pointers made
94 of 183 for
51%88% made on Free Throws compared to 82% for Thompson
4.7 Rebounds/Game compared to 3.9 for Thompson
50% FG compared to
52% for Thompson
14 ppg compared to
18 ppg for Thompson
Player X is Justin Hallowell of Wooster who was the D3Hoops Rookie of the Year
Having seen Thompson play, I actually agree with Titan Q that Aaron Thompson is a First Team player. Great player from Ohio ;D
I also agree that it is very difficult to compare players depending on their respective team roles. Wooster has two other excellent scorers in Ian Franks and Nathan Balch (both shoot ~50% FG) so Hallowell isn't expected to always be the leading scorer. Also, Hallowell at 6'7" is a Wing/Forward Player while Thompson is a Shooting Guard.
The point of this post is that Hallowell is a great shooter/player and IMO, he probably should have been picked somewhere on the All American teams. Of course, he is only a sophomore -- could that be the reason he wasn't selected even as Honorable Mention? If Hallowell has another great year, I hope that he does get selected for the end of the season awards! :)
So much for the Northeast on the pre-season ballot...other than Jeremy Shannon...anyone surprised?
I am very surprised because this year the northeast and the midwest are so much more balanced in terms of talent and good teams so it surprises me that the northeast got no love. Once this season is over there will be alot more northeast players as all americans then 1.
Quote from: thatdude 30 on November 08, 2009, 03:18:20 PM
I am very surprised because this year the northeast and the midwest are so much more balanced in terms of talent
Upon what are you basing this conclusion?
Quote from: thatdude 30 on November 08, 2009, 03:18:20 PMOnce this season is over there will be alot more northeast players as all americans then 1.
I think this is probably true, but very few of the NE players have produced the sort of career that would give them pre-season rep. NE players on the end of season team, like every other member, will have to earn it on the floor. There's just not many returning stars in the region. That makes the season a bit more exciting to watch.
I'm not touting his name for AA just yet, but a player to watch on a pretty poor team is Mark Mastrullo at Curry College. I know he's been playing below expectations for most of his career, but on this year's team he's about the only offensive option and despite being keyed on by defenses, managed to put up 49 points on 15-28 shooting from 3pt range in just two games over the weekend. His scoring and 3pt% will probably be among the leaders for most of the year. I know big stats at small schools have gotten some notice in the past; I don't know if Mastrullo is deserving, but he's a gifted scorer.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on December 02, 2009, 11:38:51 AM
I'm not touting his name for AA just yet, but a player to watch on a pretty poor team is Mark Mastrullo at Curry College. I know he's been playing below expectations for most of his career, but on this year's team he's about the only offensive option and despite being keyed on by defenses, managed to put up 49 points on 15-28 shooting from 3pt range in just two games over the weekend. His scoring and 3pt% will probably be among the leaders for most of the year. I know big stats at small schools have gotten some notice in the past; I don't know if Mastrullo is deserving, but he's a gifted scorer.
Unless Curry starts winning some games (currently 0-6), I doubt Mastrullo will get any consideration (he is averaging 17 ppg). He may be in the same boat as Jon Pierce. Tufts has looked horrible in their first 4 games (losing to Lesley University yesterday), so they may be playing him out of consideration for individual awards. Pierce is currently averaging 17 and 7, which is not that spectacular on a team that hasnt won any games (same argument as Mastrullo). You need to put up really special numbers if you are going to get consdieration on a losing team and I dont think either of those two guys are doing anything to get anyones attention yet. There are quite a few players around the country that average about 17 ppg (almost every team in the country has at least one guy averaging 15-20 ppg), so does the guy on the 0-X team get the nod or the guy on an NCAA tourney team. I think we all know the answer to that question.
Jeremy Shannon may be in a similar boat, he has been injured the last two games and his team is now 1-3. In his first two games he averaged 8 and 8. He was the northeast's only Preseason All-American.
I think the Northeast will eventually have a few guys emerge as All-Americans, but it looks like it may not be any of the 3 guys listed above.
The Ephs haven't played very tough competition to date, but Blake Schultz has been putting up some stellar numbers and will certainly be in the mix for All-American honors despite no pre-season recognition. After making first team all-NESCAC as a junior, he has really stepped up this year, and is averaging 24-5-1.5 plus one steal per game in only 28 mpg, and shooting 56 / 50 / 86. He is also a very strong defender and team co-captain.
Didnt know what the best board for this was, but the NCAA has updated stats for d3 (including rankings) up through 12/13:
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings?sportCode=MBB
Quote from: Titan Q on November 06, 2009, 10:08:35 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on November 06, 2009, 08:35:20 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on November 06, 2009, 07:16:18 PM
Steve Djurickovic (point-guard) sophomore year stats...
27.6 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 6.4 apg
2.3 A:TO
.498 FG
.432 3-pt
.833 FT
I hear you, but that is the team-factor of these individual awards that is inherently built in. I made the same argument in the past (for a different player) but the truth is, you need to make a splash on the national scene (NCAAs) before you are recognized on the top team.
There have been plenty of players make both the preseason and final 1st team without "making a splash." Just looking at this year's 1st Team, I don't think D.J. Marsh has ever played a postseason game.
By the way, I do not dispute the selections of Sean Wallis and Aaron Thompson - no brainers.
This is from a long time ago... but Vince Thomas (UW Superior class of '01) and Rich Melzer (UW River Falls class of '05) didn't make the NCAA tournament either, though both were POY in D-III I believe, or at least first team All-American.
anyone in the odac have a chance other than sanborn? there are some outstanding guards and perimeter players in clay henson, todd phillips, dominic trawick, steven echols, dj hinson, stephen fields, etc. i don't really know how they compare against players in other regions since all I ever really see is the ODAC and usa south.
Quote from: therock on January 31, 2010, 01:17:31 PM
anyone in the odac have a chance other than sanborn? there are some outstanding guards and perimeter players in clay henson, todd phillips, dominic trawick, steven echols, dj hinson, stephen fields, etc. i don't really know how they compare against players in other regions since all I ever really see is the ODAC and usa south.
The first question from this is whether they are the best in their respective region at their position. I believe that the voting for All-American comes from the regional teams (i.e. you can't be an All-American if you're aren't All-region, which makes sense).
Need to take a look at these two players from Rust College
#40 Larry Veasley
Games played: 21
Minutes/game: 26.5
Points/game: 15.2
FG Pct: 59.7
3FG Pct: 0.0
FT Pct: 70.0
Rebounds/game: 8.8
Assists/game: 0.7
Turnovers/game: 1.6
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.5
Steals/game: 1.0
Blocks/game: 0.4
#23 Markeith Wilson
Games played: 23
Minutes/game: 24.9
Points/game: 15.4
FG Pct: 49.2
3FG Pct: 40.7
FT Pct: 52.3
Rebounds/game: 2.8
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
Some of you might find this article interesting and relevant. It may be possible to make yourself an All-American by trying really hard.....
http://www.maryvillecollege.edu/athletics/news-detail.asp?sportNameID=5&id=3360
Those of us who watched Greg Hernandez as a freshman continue to be amazed by this transformation and encouraged to see what someone can do if he/she wants to.
Check out Chris Blees for All American Consideration:
32mpg - 18.2 ppg (19.5 in conference), 7.6rpg (7.2 in conference), 56% fg (59% in conference) and leading the Stags of Claremont-Mudd-Scripps to a 18-4 record and 10-1 in SCIAC play.
He was the conference player of the year last year (only Soph to ever receive that accolade) and has only gotten stronger and more consistent.
MIT has a couple top players voters should look at. The first is Noel Hollingsworth, a 6'9" center out of Salt Lake City, who tranferred after a year at Brown. His numbers are really solid this year: 20.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg (4.0 offensive rpg), 59% FG% (192-327), 47% 3FG% (14-30), 1.8 apg, 1.6 bpg, and 1.0 spg. He leads the NEWMAC in ppg, rpg, and FG% (he would also lead the league in 3FG% if he could get up to 1 make per game, but right now he is below that pace). He also has 11 double-doubles for the 21-2 Engineers.
The second player is their freshman point guard, Mitchell Kates, who is a strong potential candidate for newcomer of the year as well. Kates essentially runs the show for MIT, averaging 33 mpg, 13.1 ppg (51% FG%), 4.0 apg, 3.0 rpg , and 2.2 spg. He leads the NEWMAC in apg and spg and is top 10 in ppg, FG%, 3FG%, and A/TO ratio. When the game is on the line and MIT needs a score the ball is in his hands. He has the ability to, and has in many close games this year, take games over to lead MIT to victory.
Greg Hernandez, Maryville (TN), stats to date:
games: 22
ppg. 19.9
mins/game 28
fg% .603 (167-277)
ft% .800 (104-130)
rbg. 9.6
blocks 22
steals 25
Quote from: hugenerd on February 15, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
MIT has a couple top players voters should look at. The first is Noel Hollingsworth, a 6'9" center out of Salt Lake City, who tranferred after a year at Brown. His numbers are really solid this year: 20.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg (4.0 offensive rpg), 59% FG% (192-327), 47% 3FG% (14-30), 1.8 apg, 1.6 bpg, and 1.0 spg. He leads the NEWMAC in ppg, rpg, and FG% (he would also lead the league in 3FG% if he could get up to 1 make per game, but right now he is below that pace). He also has 11 double-doubles for the 21-2 Engineers.
The second player is their freshman point guard, Mitchell Kates, who is a strong potential candidate for newcomer of the year as well. Kates essentially runs the show for MIT, averaging 33 mpg, 13.1 ppg (51% FG%), 4.0 apg, 3.0 rpg , and 2.2 spg. He leads the NEWMAC in apg and spg and is top 10 in ppg, FG%, 3FG%, and A/TO ratio. When the game is on the line and MIT needs a score the ball is in his hands. He has the ability to, and has in many close games this year, take games over to lead MIT to victory.
Last year at this time I remembering being told that MIT was a bunch of schlubs without Jimmy B. ;)
Neither of those players was ON MIT this time last year!
Nescac1 is correct.
Noel Hollingsworth is a sophomore transfer from Brown and Mitchell Kates is a freshman (as stated in the previous post).
Wooster's top player, Ian Franks, deserves some All American consideration - his numbers are 17.6 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.2 apg.
Franks is an excellent ballhandler and shooter at 52% from the floor overall and 41% on three pointers.
Franks would have an even higher scoring average if he shot more but Wooster does have other scoring options. When the Scots have suffered cold shooting, Franks has stepped up and carried them. He has had three 30+ scoring games this season including 30 points last night against #8 Whitewater who had no answer for him.
Whitworth's 6'-8" Nate Montgomery, the 2010 NWC Player of the Year, has become one of the most dominating big men in division III this season. He is averaging 16.6 points and 7.9 rebounds per game, leading the Pirates in both categories. He leads the Northwest Conference (and ranks 30th in DIII) in field goal percentage (60.2%).
In NWC-only statistics, he averaged 18.9 points and 9.0 rebounds per game and had eight double-doubles in 16 games. He scored a career-high 33 points in a win over George Fox on January 9th.
In the NWC conference tournament, Nate had 19 points and 11 rebounds and also tied for a team high with five assists against Lewis and Clark. Against George Fox, Montgomery had 16 points and nine rebounds.
Last night Nate Montgomery powered his way to 23 points and 14 rebounds to lead Whitworth University to a 77-56 win over visiting Chapman University in the second round of the NCAA Division III men's basketball tournament on Saturday night in the Whitworth Fieldhouse. Nate made 7 of 9 from the field and 9-11 from the free throw line. His 14 rebounds tied a season high.
The fact that Nate was a walk on player his freshman year is a testament to his growth. He is an engineering physics major with a grade point average of 3.58 and was named to the 2010 ESPN The Magazine CoSIDA Academic All-District VIII College Division men's basketball team.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 07, 2010, 05:04:31 PM
Nescac1 is correct.
Noel Hollingsworth is a sophomore transfer from Brown and Mitchell Kates is a freshman (as stated in the previous post).
I apologize. My ;) was intended as a nod to the year that has passed since hugenerd and I shared a discussion of a totally different color. In other words, look what can change in a basketball program in a course of a year: from 1 AA and a good record to 2 AA considerations and an even better record.
(And to clarify, I did my research and was familiar with MIT's change in fortunes as reflected in their record since last year.)
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on March 07, 2010, 05:59:54 PM
The fact that Nate was a walk on player his freshman year is a testament to his growth.
I hope all of the Whitworthpirates are walk-ons, like everyone else in D3. ;)
Quote from: David Collinge on March 07, 2010, 06:12:40 PM
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on March 07, 2010, 05:59:54 PM
The fact that Nate was a walk on player his freshman year is a testament to his growth.
I hope all of the Whitworthpirates are walk-ons, like everyone else in D3. ;)
Fiddlesticks!! Lets try
NON RECRUITED.
I think that there are multiple All-American candidates from the ODAC this year. Sanborn and Henson from Guilford should most likely be on the ballot somewhere. Phillips from EMU should have a chance as well. Any thoughts on, if or where these players might end up? Or if any other ODAC players should be considered?
Quote from: wooscotsfan on March 07, 2010, 05:33:45 PM
Wooster's top player, Ian Franks, deserves some All American consideration - his numbers are 17.6 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.2 apg.
Franks is an excellent ballhandler and shooter at 52% from the floor overall and 41% on three pointers.
Franks would have an even higher scoring average if he shot more but Wooster does have other scoring options. When the Scots have suffered cold shooting, Franks has stepped up and carried them. He has had three 30+ scoring games this season including 30 points last night against #8 Whitewater who had no answer for him.
Just wanted to add that Franks was also the NCAC POY. :)
need to look at these two players from Rust College they should get a vote
#40 Larry Veasley
Games played: 22
Minutes/game: 26.0
Points/game: 15.2
FG Pct: 60.5 (138-228 )
3FG Pct: 0.0
FT Pct: 70.7
Rebounds/game: 8.7
Assists/game: 0.7
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.5
Steals/game: 1.0
Blocks/game: 0.4
#23 Markeith Wilson
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6 (136-274 )
3FG Pct: 42.1 (77-183 )
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
#30 Tim McCrary
Points/game: 18.2
Rebounds/game: 8.9
Assists/game: 4.8
Games played: 28
Minutes/game: 34.1
FG Pct: 54.2
3FG Pct: 0.0
FT Pct: 68.1
Turnovers/game: 3.1
Assist/turnover ratio: 1.5
Steals/game: 1.3
Blocks/game: 1.1
Blake Schultz of Williams College was announced on Tuesday as the 13th winner of the Jostens Trophy. Schultz is the 2nd Williams player to receive the award as Michael Nogelo was the first Eph to win the Jostens Trophy back in 1998, the 1st year it was given out.
Congrats to Schultz, well deserved. He isn't as good a basketball player as the prior Eph winner, Mike Nogelo (arguably the best ever at Williams and certainly the best since the Ephs began competing in the NCAA's), but his all-around accomplishments are even more impressive, which is really saying something. Schultz will likely finish as one of the top five all time scorers at Williams.
Looking at team and individual success, both he and James Wang are obvious all-American candidates. Both have absolutely ridiculous shooting numbers for guards who are high-volume shooters. Both take a lot of shots (for Schultz, his turn-around fadeaway jumper, for Wang, heavily contested drives over much bigger guys inside) that would make you cringe as they are shooting if you didn't know better, yet somehow go in more than half the time.
Schultz averages 18.6 points and 4 boards shooting .52/.52/.84
Wang averages 17 points, 4 boards, and nearly 5 assists shooting .57/.50/.86.
Both are very good defenders as well, particularly Schultz, who averages 1.5 steals per game, and usually guards the opponent's top perimeter scorer.
Looking at all-region teams, here is my guess for first team all-American (can there be three guards or do there have to be two forwards)?:
G Djurkovich (no-brainer), Wallis, Ian Franks (if three guards is doable, G and C seem a lot deeper than F this year)
F Schultz (no-brainer)
C Sanborn (no-brainer)
Either McCrary, Marsh or McNally slips in at forward if can't have a three guard offense ...
Yes, there can be three guards.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 16, 2010, 12:57:21 PM
Looking at all-region teams, here is my guess for first team all-American (can there be three guards or do there have to be two forwards)?:
G Djurkovich (no-brainer), Wallis, Ian Franks (if three guards is doable, G and C seem a lot deeper than F this year)
F Schultz (no-brainer)
C Sanborn (no-brainer)
Either McCrary, Marsh or McNally slips in at forward if can't have a three guard offense ...
I think Darnell Braswell (DeSales) is in the First-Team conversation. He is a guard in our three-guard offense who plays the SF position in a traditional set-up (IE - down low in a 2-3 zone situation).
NABC named their all-district and All-American teams today:
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/2010D3All-America.pdf
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/2010D3All-District.pdf
All-Americans
1st Team
Tyler Sanborn, Guilford, 6-9, Senior, Center, Elkin, N.C.
Blake Schultz, Williams, 6-3, Senior, Guard/Forward, Atherton, Calif.
Ian Franks, Wooster, 6-4, Junior, Guard, Greenwich, Ohio
Dustin Mitchell, UW-Whitewater, 6-9, Senior, Forward/Center, Lac Du Flambeau, Wis.
Marcel Esonwune, York (NY), 6-6, Junior, Forward/Center, Lagos, Nigeria
Darnell Braswell, DeSales, 6-1, Senior, Guard, Allentown, Pa.
Corey McAdam, Nazareth, 6-1, Senior, Guard, Fairport, N.Y.
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage, 6-3, Junior, Guard, Pleasant Prairie, Wis.
2nd Team
Trey Drake, North Carolina Wesleyan, 5-8, Senior, Guard, Emporia, Va.
Noel Hollingsworth, MIT, 6-9, Sophomore, Forward, Salt Lake City, Utah
Kyle Meyer, Ohio Northern, 6-5, Senior, Forward, Columbus Grove, Ohio
Nate Montgomery, Whitworth, 6-8, Senior, Center, Sammamish, Wash.
Abdoulaye Ouedraogo, William Paterson, 6-8, Senior, Forward, Newark, N.J.
James McNally, Franklin & Marshall, 6-6, Junior, Forward, Bridgewater, N.J.
Josh Sharlow, St. Lawrence, 5-9, Senior, Guard, Norwood, N.Y.
John Hoch, Carroll, 5-10, Senior, Guard, Colgate, Wis.
3rd Team
Greg Hernandez, Maryville, 6-6, Senior, Center, Miami, Fla.
Adam Choice, Colby, 6-5, Senior, Forward, Newport, R.I.
Michael McClary, Olivet, 6-5, Junior, Center, Bellaire, Mich.
Tyler Nicolai, St. Thomas, 5-11, Junior, Guard, Minnetonka, Minn.
Richard Jean-Baptiste, Brooklyn, 6-4, Senior, Forward, Queens, N.Y.
Nick Brady, York (PA), 6-2, Senior, Guard, Hanover, Pa.
Brian Beckford, Oneonta, 6-9, Senior, Forward, Brooklyn, N.Y.
Sean Wallis, Washington University (St. Louis), 6-2, Graduate, Guard, Northbrook, Ill.
NABC selects All-Americans a bit different than D3hoops. They pick one player from each region to each All-America team. So the best player in each region is 1st team, 2nd best is 2nd team, and 3rd best is 3rd team.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 17, 2010, 09:42:04 PM
NABC selects All-Americans a bit different than D3hoops. They pick one player from each region to each All-America team. So the best player in each region is 1st team, 2nd best is 2nd team, and 3rd best is 3rd team.
Which is as stupid as can be...
Quote from: Just Bill on March 17, 2010, 09:45:18 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 17, 2010, 09:42:04 PM
NABC selects All-Americans a bit different than D3hoops. They pick one player from each region to each All-America team. So the best player in each region is 1st team, 2nd best is 2nd team, and 3rd best is 3rd team.
Which is as stupid as can be...
Well I think that there is small town in west Texas that runs a 3-2-3 zone defense that really shuts down most offenses. ;)
I don't even mind the eight players on a team. It's just ridiculous that the best player in one region must automatically be better than the second best player in ANY region.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 18, 2010, 11:24:56 AM
I don't even mind the eight players on a team. It's just ridiculous that the best player in one region must automatically be better than the second best player in ANY region.
Guess we should be glad the NABC's logic isn't used in selecting the tournament teams.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 17, 2010, 10:22:47 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 17, 2010, 09:45:18 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on March 17, 2010, 09:42:04 PM
NABC selects All-Americans a bit different than D3hoops. They pick one player from each region to each All-America team. So the best player in each region is 1st team, 2nd best is 2nd team, and 3rd best is 3rd team.
Which is as stupid as can be...
Well I think that there is small town in west Texas that runs a 3-2-3 zone defense that really shuts down most offenses. ;)
Ralph, you're right on. That town is West-of-Nothing, Texas, situated virtually on the border with New Mexico in what is known locally, for obvious reasons, as "Scorpion and Buzzard Alley."
The 3-2-3 zone they play employs every male student in the school. :P
DIII News has named their All-American Team. Sanborn named POY.
http://www.smallcollegehoops.com/Home_files/D3NAATeam10.pdf
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 09:25:59 PM
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
If you had five teams PLUS 35 HMs, yet still could not find room for either Doug Sexauer or Sean Johnson of Elite Eight IWU, I'd have a complaint! :D
While a case could be made for either Sanborn or Djurickovic (perhaps even Blake Schultz) for POY, leaving Steve D. off the first team automatically disqualifies the selections to me.
I think the 2009-10 D3hoops.com All-America team is very well done. One change I would have made...I'd have Matt Moses ahead of Ben Panner at that guard spot. Having seen both play, I'm very confident Moses is the better player.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 22, 2010, 10:27:28 PM
I think the 2009-10 D3hoops.com All-America team is very well done. One change I would have made...I'd have Matt Moses ahead of Ben Panner at that guard spot. Having seen both play, I'm very confident Moses is the better player.
UT-Dallas might be able to comment. Unfortunately, UTD has very few posters, in any sports.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 09:25:59 PM
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
Not only does Steve D. not make the 1st team but Todd Phillips of Eastern Mennonite doesn't make their list anywhere, not even honorable mentioon. This publication did the same screwy things last year.
Quote from: magicman on March 22, 2010, 10:48:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 09:25:59 PM
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
Not only does Steve D. not make the 1st team but Todd Phillips of Eastern Mennonite doesn't make their list anywhere, not even honorable mentioon. This publication did the same screwy things last year.
Did someone nominate Todd Phillips to the All-Region panel?
Todd Phillips made our team, Ralph. It's DIII News that left him off.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 11:37:00 PM
Todd Phillips made our team, Ralph. It's DIII News that left him off.
My bad! :-\
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2010, 10:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 09:25:59 PM
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
If you had five teams PLUS 35 HMs, yet still could not find room for either Doug Sexauer or Sean Johnson of Elite Eight IWU, I'd have a complaint! :D
While a case could be made for either Sanborn or Djurickovic (perhaps even Blake Schultz) for POY, leaving Steve D. off the first team automatically disqualifies the selections to me.
I think we have this same conversation every year and everyone agrees that the DIIINews is the worst at this.
Pat, you would also get less complaints if people had no means of leaving feedback and you only had 4 releases each year that were a couple of pages long.
tell me how can Markeith Wilson of rust college not make the all american team he shoots 42% from the 3pt line and 49% FG
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6
3FG Pct: 42.1
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
Last year DIII News did the same thing as they had D3Hoops Player of the Year Jimmy Bartolotta on their 2nd team. They also left Sean Wallis, Steve Djurickovoic, Tyler Kathan of Keene St. and Jeff Skemp of UW-Platteville off their 5 teams giving all 4 honorable mention status. They omitted Myles McKay of UW-Whitewater completely. At least they spelled the player's names right this year. That's an improvement over 2009. :D
Quote from: RustCollege on March 23, 2010, 01:36:22 AM
tell me how can Markeith Wilson of rust college not make the all american team he shoots 42% from the 3pt line and 49% FG
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6
3FG Pct: 42.1
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
Illinois Wesleyan guard Sean Johnson...
17.0 ppg
3.2 rpg
3.1 apg
75-181 3-pt (.414)
103-127 FT (.811)
A:TO = 1.25
Team finish = 23-8/Elite 8
I haven't seen anyone complain about Sean Johnson not making one of the guard spots, and it would seem to me that Wilson would at least be behind Johnson. (Not to mention whoever the other near miss guards are, like UW-Stevens Point PG Matt Moses.)
When you look into the credentials of the guys who made the AA team you find one common theme - they all had great seasons.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 23, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
Pat, you would also get less complaints if people had no means of leaving feedback and you only had 4 releases each year that were a couple of pages long.
I will have to consider this. :)
A note sent to DIII (snooze) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
"Since 1991, we have been the leading authority on small college basketball. "
You might want to re-think this statement. How can any "leading authority" publish the All-American list that you just did?? Blake Schultz ahead of Steve Djurickovic for a first team AA guard? Look at the numbers:
PPG A RPG Minutes FG % 3pt% FT%
Player A 24.4 218 4.5 37.1 .525 .410 .877
Player B 19.2 58 4.3 30.8 .526 .520 .857
"Experts"?? Hardly.
I will post any response I receive...
Sometimes I feel like they make these omissions/first-team selections solely to be different. If they had the exact same players as the other two all-america teams, then maybe they would get even less attention than they already do.
Quote from: RustCollege on March 23, 2010, 01:36:22 AM
tell me how can Markeith Wilson of rust college not make the all american team he shoots 42% from the 3pt line and 49% FG
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6
3FG Pct: 42.1
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
You can't make All-American if you don't make All-Region. He didn't make All-Region.
Do you know for sure that he was nominated? Rust hasn't always been an active participant on this site, to say the least.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 23, 2010, 01:31:43 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on March 23, 2010, 01:36:22 AM
tell me how can Markeith Wilson of rust college not make the all american team he shoots 42% from the 3pt line and 49% FG
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6
3FG Pct: 42.1
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
You can't make All-American if you don't make All-Region. He didn't make All-Region.
Do you know for sure that he was nominated? Rust hasn't always been an active participant on this site, to say the least.
The Rookie of the Year in the South was from Rust this year.
Quote from: RustCollege on March 23, 2010, 01:36:22 AM
tell me how can Markeith Wilson of rust college not make the all american team he shoots 42% from the 3pt line and 49% FG
Games played: 24
Minutes/game: 25.0
Points/game: 15.7
FG Pct: 49.6
3FG Pct: 42.1
FT Pct: 56.0
Rebounds/game: 2.7
Assists/game: 1.0
Turnovers/game: 1.5
Assist/turnover ratio: 0.7
Steals/game: 1.2
Blocks/game: 0.1
Noel Hollingsworth from MIT didnt make it on the d3hoops teams either and he averaged:
Points/game: 20.4
FG Pct: 56.0
3FG Pct: 42.5
Rebounds/game: 9.0
Blocks/game: 1.4
he was first team in the NE, second team NABC all-america, and was on a team that was 22-5 (22-4 against non-D1). He is a forward/center, so wouldnt be competing for a guard spot, but as you can see from this example and the ones Titan Q gave, there are players with better stats from NCAA teams that were also left off.
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
I'd have to check, but I wonder if the NABC ever picked a non-senior as Player of the Year. Not that Sanborn isn't worthy, but I imagine some might favor the senior over the junior.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2010, 10:14:58 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 22, 2010, 09:25:59 PM
I guess if we named 35 honorable mentions we would get a lot fewer complaints.
I don't think Steve Djurickovic should be second team to anyone, fwiw.
If you had five teams PLUS 35 HMs, yet still could not find room for either Doug Sexauer or Sean Johnson of Elite Eight IWU, I'd have a complaint! :D
Or Ben Panner or Tim McCrary, both of whom are d3hoops.com All-Americans but failed to even get their names listed among the mob that made
DIII News honorable mention.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2010, 10:14:58 PM
While a case could be made for either Sanborn or Djurickovic (perhaps even Blake Schultz) for POY, leaving Steve D. off the first team automatically disqualifies the selections to me.
I completely agree, Chuck.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2010, 05:18:20 PM
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
At least someone got it right!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sausage making.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2010, 05:18:20 PM
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
I fully expected this, based on the current format and the invitation to the Senior All-Star Game that comes this award, it would not make sense for them to choose a non-senior. I thought Sanborn was the favorite with a slight chance of Schultz getting it. Let's just hope he doesn't get Nolan Richardson as his coach at the All-Star game.
Quote from: mwunder on March 23, 2010, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2010, 05:18:20 PM
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
At least someone got it right!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
As a CCIW partisan, I agreed with Djurickovic, but would have had no problem at all with Sanborn. While a couple of others (especially Schultz) deserved careful consideration, I thought Steve and Tyler were
clearly the primary choices.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 23, 2010, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: mwunder on March 23, 2010, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2010, 05:18:20 PM
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
At least someone got it right!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
As a CCIW partisan, I agreed with Djurickovic, but would have had no problem at all with Sanborn. While a couple of others (especially Schultz) deserved careful consideration, I thought Steve and Tyler were clearly the primary choices.
I wouldn't have had an issue with Sanborn getting it, either, particularly since his team reached the Final Four and Djurickovic's didn't. But the idea of leaving Djurickovic off of the first team of any D3 All-American squad is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, c'mon ... he scored 84 more points than anyone else in D3 and dished out more dimes than anyone else in D3 save Sean Rossi of Ithaca (he had 221 assists, Steve D. had 218). Djurickovic finished third in points per game and fourth in assists per game -- the sort of combination you don't often see in the national statistical ledgers -- and finished fourteenth in the nation in free-throw percentage, to boot. (He also made and attempted more free throws than any other D3 player).
I'm sorry, but the decision of
DIII News to leave Steve Djurickovic off of its All-American first team is an egregious mistake. As Chuck said, it completely invalidates their entire All-American team.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2010, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 23, 2010, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: mwunder on March 23, 2010, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 23, 2010, 05:18:20 PM
For what it's worth, looks like we're the lone wolf on Steve Djurickovic as POTY this year. Just got a tweet from Tyler Sanborn that he's making a trip to Indianapolis on the NABC's dime. Have to assume that means he's the POTY.
At least someone got it right!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
As a CCIW partisan, I agreed with Djurickovic, but would have had no problem at all with Sanborn. While a couple of others (especially Schultz) deserved careful consideration, I thought Steve and Tyler were clearly the primary choices.
I wouldn't have had an issue with Sanborn getting it, either, particularly since his team reached the Final Four and Djurickovic's didn't. But the idea of leaving Djurickovic off of the first team of any D3 All-American squad is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, c'mon ... he scored 84 more points than anyone else in D3 and dished out more dimes than anyone else in D3 save Sean Rossi of Ithaca (he had 221 assists, Steve D. had 218). Djurickovic finished third in points per game and fourth in assists per game -- the sort of combination you don't often see in the national statistical ledgers -- and finished fourteenth in the nation in free-throw percentage, to boot. (He also made and attempted more free throws than any other D3 player).
I'm sorry, but the decision of DIII News to leave Steve Djurickovic off of its All-American first team is an egregious mistake. As Chuck said, it completely invalidates their entire All-American team.
Leaving Djurickovic off the first team is clearly an egregious error, but I still think it is nothing compared to the omission they made last year (and I am not talking about Bartolotta on the 2nd team) when they left Jeff Skemp off of all 5 teams (he was 1st team AA from both NABC and d3hoops and was west region player of the year for both as well).
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2010, 02:58:24 PM
I wouldn't have had an issue with Sanborn getting it, either, particularly since his team reached the Final Four and Djurickovic's didn't.
It's an individual award, not a team award. Steve lead a team of freshman and sophomores to the Sweet 16. Sanborn didn't even play 27 minutes a game and led a team of juniors and seniors to the final four.
However, Sanborn had 30, count them, 30 double doubles. That's pretty good IMO.
It's not as easy to get double-doubles as a guard, though.
Quote from: mwunder on March 26, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 24, 2010, 02:58:24 PM
I wouldn't have had an issue with Sanborn getting it, either, particularly since his team reached the Final Four and Djurickovic's didn't.
It's an individual award, not a team award. Steve lead a team of freshman and sophomores to the Sweet 16. Sanborn didn't even play 27 minutes a game and led a team of juniors and seniors to the final four.
I agree, but the truth of the matter -- as we have often discussed on CCIW Chat -- is that team performance has a definite impact upon individual awards, whether justified or not.
Only F Kyle Meyer of Ohio Northern (12-14) and F/C Michael McClary of Olivet (14-13) were on teams with records ~0.500 or worse and made the All-American team (honorable-mention for both). Meyer averaged 18.6 ppg (59.3% FG), 7.6 rpg, and 0.92 bpg. McClary averaged 19.8 ppg (51.6% FG), 11.0 rbg, and 1.6 bpg. However, every other player selected was on a team with a winning percentage of at least 64%. Also, having said that, there were players like Doug Sexauer from IWU, David Golembiowski from SUNYIT, and Noel Hollingsworth from MIT who all had very comparable numbers to the two players above and were on teams that had much better winning percentages, but were not selected. Therefore, the team record is not a hard rule, although does clearly play some role based on the fact that 23/25 players selected were on teams that won at least about 2/3 of their games.
.......or does it just say if you have a great player who can put up those statistical numbers good enough for AA......you usually win a lot?
Chicken, meet egg. Egg, meet chicken. That is indeed the conundrum.
Quote from: sac on March 26, 2010, 06:12:06 PM
.......or does it just say if you have a great player who can put up those statistical numbers good enough for AA......you usually win a lot?
I dont agree with that at all. You make it sound as if
most players who put up those kind of numbers are on really successful teams. If you look at the top 20 scorers in the country each year, at least about 10 (the majority) are from teams with winning percentages below ~.600 (and often much lower than that). And thats not true just for scoring, that is pretty much the case for any statistic. I think that is why it is difficult to put players on teams that are not very successful on All-America teams (I am not saying it shouldnt be done, just that it is a bit more tricky). This is because being on a bad team can have one of two effects: 1) your numbers go up because: a) you have the ball in your hands more, b) you are the first option (whereas if you were on a better team you may not be), c) the coach gives you more freedom (shooting, going for steals, etc.) and you know you aren't going to sit because you are head and shoulders better than your replacement; or 2) your numbers go down because you garner much more attention from opposing teams (double or even triple teams), whereas on a better team you would get more single coverage situations.
On a seperate note, I was just looking at the stats from this season. Did anyone notice the season Juan Paulino had from Wells (21-7, lost in the NEAC championship to SUNYIT). The guy led the country in FG% (70.1%), he led the country in rebounding (16.5 per game), was 14th in the country in blocks (2.6 per game) and was also ranked nationally in scoring (17.1 ppg), steals (1.9 per game), and assists (2.8 per game), and he didn't even make first team in his own region (the East). Surprised he didn't receive more attention (you really cant put him on AA over a guy on the first team in the region, like Golembiowski, given the SID voting, but I am surprised he wasnt even first team in the region).
I wish either camontae griffin or alex franz would got alittle more respect for All American. They carried a team to a 26-4 record and the sweet 16 and number 12 national ranking. I think one of them should have been on the list
Couldnt think of a better board to post this on, but the NABC named their 2010 Honors Court, which is a distinction given the juniors and seniors who maintain a 3.2 GPA or higher.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/HonorsCourt7-21.pdf
We need to look at Markeith Wilson 6'3 and Larry Veasley 6'7 of Rust College as All Americans for this up coming season they really good players they need your vote
Sporting News preseason All-America Team...
First Team
Steve Djurickovic (Carthage)
Marcel Esonwune (York-NY)
Ian Franks (Wooster)
James McNally (Franklin & Marshall)
Todd Phillips (Eastern Mennonite)
Second Team
Noel Hollingsworth (MIT)
Tim McCrary (Wheaton)
Tyler Nicolai (St. Thomas)
Andrew Powers (Gettysburg)
James Wang (Williams)
Nice, thanks for passing that on.
There is a conversation about the preseason top 25 on the "Top 25" board, so who are people's picks for preseason All-Americans?
I will start the conversations off with a couple of players from the team that I follow closely, MIT.
Center Noel Hollingsworth was 2009 D3hoops.com 1st team All-Northeast, 2nd team All-American NABC, and already named a 2010 2nd team preseason All-American by the Sporthing news last year. He averaged 20.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, and 1.4 bpg, while shooting 56% from the field and 42.5% from 3 last season.
Although Hollingsworth gets all the attention because of his stats, which he deserves, MIT's real most valuable player is arguable point guard Mitchell Kates. Kates was voted D3hoops.com Northeast region Rookie of th Year last season, as a freshman. He led the team in minutes played, scored 13.2 ppg, 4.2 apg, 3.3 rpg, and 2.1 spg.
Someone else who should be on people's radar is forward Will Tashman. This year may be premature to put him in the All-American conversation, but he has the size and skill to compete with any DIII 4 in the country. He averaged 9 points and 7 boards a game last year, but he has improved a lot since last season and should be a double-double machine this season.
I am sure there are a lot of candidates out there, I look forward to hearing about people's thoughts.
Another name worthy of All-American consideration is Oglethorpe University senior forward Todd Ward. Ward was a Preseason Second Team All-American selection last October and had an outstanding season despite playing injured throughout the campaign. Slowed by a high ankle sprain, Ward still managed to average 13.2 ppg and 8.8 rpg (2nd in SCAC) and led the conference in double-doubles while posting the fourth best field goal percentage in the SCAC (.476). As a healthy sophomore Ward averaged 17.0 ppg (good for 3rd in the SCAC) and 10.2 rpg (led the conference) and again led the conference in double-doubles while shooting 55.7% from the field (2nd in SCAC).
He was named First Team All-SCAC in both his sophomore and junior seasons and, at 100% health, is ready for a monster senior campaign. He is also on pace to become the SCAC's all-time leading rebounder.
To catch a glimpse of the senior forward (wearing #15 and #5 in these clips) in action, go here:
http://vimeo.com/13394087
Preseason All-Americans announced:
http://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2011
OUSID, Todd Ward made it on the Honorable Mention team.
Kind of daring to put Jared Jenkins (UWSP) on there since there is a lot of speculation that he won't play this year (may be trying for an NFL career).
Noted that Noel Hollingsworth is only a junior and listed as a senior unless I'm missing something. He was a sophomore transfer from Brown last year.
Quote from: toooldtoplay on November 11, 2010, 08:17:29 PM
Noted that Noel Hollingsworth is only a junior and listed as a senior unless I'm missing something. He was a sophomore transfer from Brown last year.
You are correct, I sent Pat a message about this earlier.
I'm kinda surprised no one from Rust was mentioned. Must have just missed the cut.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
Kind of daring to put Jared Jenkins (UWSP) on there since there is a lot of speculation that he won't play this year (may be trying for an NFL career).
Yep. But we couldn't rule him out. I did hold the team for a few days to sleep on this decision in particular, but we decided he was too good to leave off.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 12, 2010, 02:11:04 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 11, 2010, 05:03:36 PM
Kind of daring to put Jared Jenkins (UWSP) on there since there is a lot of speculation that he won't play this year (may be trying for an NFL career).
Yep. But we couldn't rule him out. I did hold the team for a few days to sleep on this decision in particular, but we decided he was too good to leave off.
A gutsy call - I salute you. :)
Did you have similar qualms about the injured Peter Bunn?
Preseason calls are such a crapsshoot.
Yep. Read the news coverage and decided since he wasn't ruled out for the season that he should be included.
Very Senior-laden again this year. That always allows for some good underclassmen surprises during the season.
Looks like a strong list; it also seem like the committee has done a good job looking beyond the major programs.
Markeith Wilson 6'4 G should be an All American with the # he is putting up
I dont mean to nitpick here, but the Rust College Website does not have any scores reported, let alone individual player statistics:
http://www.rustcollege.edu/bearcat_athletics_men_basketball.html
Therefore, it is difficult to know what kind of numbers he is putting up, or if those numbers are of the All-American variety.
Quote from: hugenerd on December 13, 2010, 07:22:32 PM
I dont mean to nitpick here, but the Rust College Website does not have any scores reported, let alone individual player statistics:
http://www.rustcollege.edu/bearcat_athletics_men_basketball.html
Therefore, it is difficult to know what kind of numbers he is putting up, or if those numbers are of the All-American variety.
Picky, picky, picky. I'm sure coach was speaking metaphorically....
Quote from: hugenerd on December 13, 2010, 07:22:32 PM
I dont mean to nitpick here, but the Rust College Website does not have any scores reported, let alone individual player statistics:
http://www.rustcollege.edu/bearcat_athletics_men_basketball.html
Therefore, it is difficult to know what kind of numbers he is putting up, or if those numbers are of the All-American variety.
for one if you be on D3hoops all scores are reported an NCAA hav all scores an if you go to Ncaa rankings for the stats you will see what #25 is doing
Quote from: RustCollege on December 15, 2010, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on December 13, 2010, 07:22:32 PM
I dont mean to nitpick here, but the Rust College Website does not have any scores reported, let alone individual player statistics:
http://www.rustcollege.edu/bearcat_athletics_men_basketball.html
Therefore, it is difficult to know what kind of numbers he is putting up, or if those numbers are of the All-American variety.
for one if you be on D3hoops all scores are reported an NCAA hav all scores an if you go to Ncaa rankings for the stats you will see what #25 is doing
When I made this post, the NCAA had not reported stats yet for D3, the first posting was made yesterday (Dec 14) for games through Dec 12, so now it is possible to check the NCAA site.
Quote from: RustCollege on December 15, 2010, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: hugenerd on December 13, 2010, 07:22:32 PM
I dont mean to nitpick here, but the Rust College Website does not have any scores reported, let alone individual player statistics:
http://www.rustcollege.edu/bearcat_athletics_men_basketball.html
Therefore, it is difficult to know what kind of numbers he is putting up, or if those numbers are of the All-American variety.
for one if you be on D3hoops all scores are reported an NCAA hav all scores an if you go to Ncaa rankings for the stats you will see what #25 is doing
22nd in scoring at 21.3 pts
Jonathan Jones (Kean) definitely deserves serious consideration. The 6-5 senior center is averaging 25.4 ppg, 15.8 rpg and is shooting 55% from the floor through eight games. He also has 19 steals (tops on the team). I saw him play against York (NY) and was very impressed. He gave York's All-American center, Marcel Esonwune, all he could handle.
Jones has few, if any, flaws in his game. He is an excellent low-post player, very strong, runs the court very well, has a pretty good outside touch and good instincts. He's not as athletic as Esonwune and can't jump or block shots like Marcel, but Jones is more skilled overall and is stronger.
I saw Jones against Scranton via videocast Monday and he was impressive with 20 points, 13 rebounds, 7 offensive. This was his eighth consecutive double-double.
what do yall think of Markeith Wilson for All American...i think he should get the votes
Well, he's no Larry Veasley...
Quote from: RustCollege on January 14, 2011, 01:45:01 AM
what do yall think of Markeith Wilson for All American...i think he should get the votes
Going strictly by stats, he's probably in the top 25 guards. Definitely behind Lamonte Thomas, Eryk Watson, Tony Mane, Logan Wolfram, DaQuan Brooks, Nick Rose, Todd Zimmerman, Steve Djurickovic, Amad Hassan, Will Hanley, Asmar Capers, and Kevin Breslin.
Quote from: David Collinge on January 14, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
Well, he's no Larry Veasley...
Well Larry is out for the year with a foot injury
Quote from: frodotwo on January 14, 2011, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on January 14, 2011, 01:45:01 AM
what do yall think of Markeith Wilson for All American...i think he should get the votes
Going strictly by stats, he's probably in the top 25 guards. Definitely behind Lamonte Thomas, Eryk Watson, Tony Mane, Logan Wolfram, DaQuan Brooks, Nick Rose, Todd Zimmerman, Steve Djurickovic, Amad Hassan, Will Hanley, Asmar Capers, and Kevin Breslin.
Well Wilson is top 5 when it comes to guards just because he can also post any guard up in D3 at 6'4 and we all know he can shoot...Hopefan i need your help with this because you saw him play
EMU's wingman Todd Phillips. 1st teamer last season and he's duplicated those numbers from a year ago while also adding onto his PPG total! Should be another AA year for T.P. especially if EMU makes another run deep into their conference tourney and do the same in the National Tourney ;D
Quote from: bossman on February 22, 2011, 03:02:15 PM
EMU's wingman Todd Phillips. 1st teamer last season and he's duplicated those numbers from a year ago while also adding onto his PPG total! Should be another AA year for T.P. especially if EMU makes another run deep into their conference tourney and do the same in the National Tourney ;D
And if they don't get in the tournament? :P He is a very good player and deserves another top selection IMO.
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on February 28, 2011, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: bossman on February 22, 2011, 03:02:15 PM
EMU's wingman Todd Phillips. 1st teamer last season and he's duplicated those numbers from a year ago while also adding onto his PPG total! Should be another AA year for T.P. especially if EMU makes another run deep into their conference tourney and do the same in the National Tourney ;D
And if they don't get in the tournament? :P He is a very good player and deserves another top selection IMO.
Haha, Low blow! Oh well though...not enough in region GAMES much less wins or losses...disappointing that EMU only has themselves to blame for not making it this year.
I sure hope he gets something cuz he deserves it. He's a monster, its a shame we'll never have the chance to see him in a Royal uni again tho
Rust College 6'4 G/F Markeith Wilson for All American just look at his numbers and you will see
Eryk Watson, Maryville College (TN) SR Wing
fg. 191-426 .448
3pt. fg. 94-199 .472
ft. 151-187 .807
rb 4.8/game
steals 49 (1.89/game)
ave. 24.1
As a Maryville fan, i have to say Eryk did give the individual effort and get the results worthy of All America status based on past recipients that have worn the orange and garnet.
Maryville lost a lot of games but they were close games and they would have lost a lot more if it were not for Watson. That 16-10 looks great compared to the scots not having watson. His stats don't show his phenomenal defensive skills except for the steals.
I think he deserves recognition and hope he gets it.
So the All-Region teams are out. It's time to discuss who has the potential to be on the first team. I'll give you the guys I think deserve first team consideration.
NE - Troy Whittington, LaMonte Thomas, James Wang
E - John Dibartolomeo, David Golembiowski
A - Marcel Esonwune, Jonathan Jones
MA - Alex Franz
S - Derek Mitchell, Todd Phillips, Eryk Watson
GL - Ian Franks, Michael McClary
MW - Steve Djurickovic, Tim McCrary, Kyle Nelson
W - Michael Taylor, Tyler Nicolai
Guard is tough - so many deserving guards this year. Djurickovic and Taylor are locks. Stevie D is the returning national player of the year. He'll probably not get that award again (his numbers were down across the board - not all his fault), but no one doubts he's an incredible talent. Taylor has shown all year how dominant he is. Both were regional players of the year.
If they go with three guards, Ian Franks seems the next likely choice (although Franz, Nicolai and Wang seem good choices as well). I thought Dibartolomeo was outstanding in the tournament, but his region didn't even make him POY, so maybe it was just a peak.
The post spots are difficult as well, but more because no one had a season to stand out from a lot of great post players. Todd Phillips is a returning first teamer, but didn't have the same kind of year. I'm not even sure who to pick. I'd be fine with any of the posts on my list above.
I do think it's going to be a three guard year, though, for the first team.
I agree that Taylor and Djurickovic (even though his team and his performance tailed off a bit, due primarily to a tough injury he played through from what I underdstand) are locks for the first team. I think Troy Whittington should be as well. His numbers are insane this year, especially when you consider all the injuries he suffered and played through, and the team results speak for themselves. In my mind, those are the three National POY contenders, with Taylor or Whittington over Djurickovic due to team success (even if it's really not his fault, it is a factor). I'd say Franks gets a spot too given how good he has been for how long.
The fifth spot is tough, I'd say either Jones or Nicolai (Franks can be a G or a F which adds some flexibility).
I do think Middlebury's Ryan Sharry deserves consideration for at least the second team, where I think Wang deserves to land as well (at worst third team for both of them).
The guards out West must be pretty darn good if Jerrell Harris isn't even first-team all-region.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 15, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
So the All-Region teams are out. It's time to discuss who has the potential to be on the first team. I'll give you the guys I think deserve first team consideration.
NE - Troy Whittington, LaMonte Thomas, James Wang
E - John Dibartolomeo, David Golembiowski
A - Marcel Esonwune, Jonathan Jones
MA - Alex Franz
S - Derek Mitchell, Todd Phillips, Eryk Watson
GL - Ian Franks, Michael McClary
MW - Steve Djurickovic, Tim McCrary, Kyle Nelson
W - Michael Taylor, Tyler Nicolai
Guard is tough - so many deserving guards this year. Djurickovic and Taylor are locks. Oh really? ;) Stevie D is the returning national player of the year. He'll probably not get that award again (his numbers were down across the board - not all his fault), but no one doubts he's an incredible talent. Taylor has shown all year how dominant he is. Both were regional players of the year.
If they go with three guards, Ian Franks seems the next likely choice (although Franz, Nicolai and Wang seem good choices as well). I thought Dibartolomeo was outstanding in the tournament, but his region didn't even make him POY, so maybe it was just a peak.
The post spots are difficult as well, but more because no one had a season to stand out from a lot of great post players. Todd Phillips is a returning first teamer, but didn't have the same kind of year. I'm not even sure who to pick. I'd be fine with any of the posts on my list above.
I do think it's going to be a three guard year, though, for the first team.
I was thinking (in east to west order) Lamonte Thomas, Wang and Nicolai for first teamers.
You guys have just done a great job laying out what is an incredibly tough decision for us this year!
its Sad that Markeith Wilson didnt make it on the All-Region south team
Quote from: nescac1 on March 15, 2011, 01:33:48 PM
I agree that Taylor and Djurickovic (even though his team and his performance tailed off a bit, due primarily to a tough injury he played through from what I underdstand) are locks for the first team. I think Troy Whittington should be as well. His numbers are insane this year, especially when you consider all the injuries he suffered and played through, and the team results speak for themselves. In my mind, those are the three National POY contenders, with Taylor or Whittington over Djurickovic due to team success (even if it's really not his fault, it is a factor). I'd say Franks gets a spot too given how good he has been for how long.
The fifth spot is tough, I'd say either Jones or Nicolai (Franks can be a G or a F which adds some flexibility).
I do think Middlebury's Ryan Sharry deserves consideration for at least the second team, where I think Wang deserves to land as well (at worst third team for both of them).
The guards out West must be pretty darn good if Jerrell Harris isn't even first-team all-region.
Wow. I totally forgot Whittington. Yeah, I think he's a lock and probably my vote for POY. I sort of had him in a different category in my mind, which is why he probably didn't appear in my post. He's done some amazing things this year - so much so that James Wang, an AA in his own right, has had his accomplishments perhaps dimished a little bit in light of Whittington's successes.
I do think LaMonte Thomas is worthy of the first team. I'm a bit of a sucker for rewarding career performance in these sorts of things (even as I'm ideologically against it). It just seems like a travesty to leave Franks off the first team. In terms of pure talent, Thomas may be #1, especially if he's playing the off-guard position.
Personally, I don't think Wang's performance this year has put him in the same class as Nicolai. I do think Ryan Sharry is a worthy candidate, I'm just not sure this is the right year. I think he's the most talented player in the NESCAC, even over Whittington - I'm just not sure he was as impressive with what he did with his talent this year. (It also seemed a bit homerish to put four NE region players on the AA short list).
Honestly, if I'm putting together a team to go out and play a game - I might take LaMonte Thomas, Stevie D, Franks, Taylor, and Whittington and just run the heck out of the competition. Franks plays big - I still struggle to even call him a guard over a forward in this classification.
Pat, would you consider a four guard AA squad?
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:02:06 PM
its Sad that Markeith Wilson didnt make it on the All-Region south team
Did he get nominated?
This is probably the result of not having an SID. We take a four-pronged attack to getting the word out to schools to nominate kids.
1) Direct email to SIDs, Feb. 25
2) Notices posted via social media, Twitter and Facebook, between Feb. 25 and March 7
3) Front-page story on D3hoops.com, March 6-7
4) Follow-up emails to conference offices on March 8 to get leagues to identify their stragglers and contact schools.
Now, granted, 1 and 4 won't help Rust but 2 and 3 were visible to anyone who follows Division III basketball closely.
I know at least one person from Rust follows us on Twitter because he took the time to accuse of of being racist for not including any players from Rust. But honestly, there are 400 schools. We cannot help all the schools if they can't help themselves.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 15, 2011, 04:07:52 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on March 15, 2011, 01:33:48 PM
I agree that Taylor and Djurickovic (even though his team and his performance tailed off a bit, due primarily to a tough injury he played through from what I underdstand) are locks for the first team. I think Troy Whittington should be as well. His numbers are insane this year, especially when you consider all the injuries he suffered and played through, and the team results speak for themselves. In my mind, those are the three National POY contenders, with Taylor or Whittington over Djurickovic due to team success (even if it's really not his fault, it is a factor). I'd say Franks gets a spot too given how good he has been for how long.
The fifth spot is tough, I'd say either Jones or Nicolai (Franks can be a G or a F which adds some flexibility).
I do think Middlebury's Ryan Sharry deserves consideration for at least the second team, where I think Wang deserves to land as well (at worst third team for both of them).
The guards out West must be pretty darn good if Jerrell Harris isn't even first-team all-region.
Wow. I totally forgot Whittington. Yeah, I think he's a lock and probably my vote for POY. I sort of had him in a different category in my mind, which is why he probably didn't appear in my post. He's done some amazing things this year - so much so that James Wang, an AA in his own right, has had his accomplishments perhaps dimished a little bit in light of Whittington's successes.
I do think LaMonte Thomas is worthy of the first team. I'm a bit of a sucker for rewarding career performance in these sorts of things (even as I'm ideologically against it). It just seems like a travesty to leave Franks off the first team. In terms of pure talent, Thomas may be #1, especially if he's playing the off-guard position.
Personally, I don't think Wang's performance this year has put him in the same class as Nicolai. I do think Ryan Sharry is a worthy candidate, I'm just not sure this is the right year. I think he's the most talented player in the NESCAC, even over Whittington - I'm just not sure he was as impressive with what he did with his talent this year. (It also seemed a bit homerish to put four NE region players on the AA short list).
Honestly, if I'm putting together a team to go out and play a game - I might take LaMonte Thomas, Stevie D, Franks, Taylor, and Whittington and just run the heck out of the competition. Franks plays big - I still struggle to even call him a guard over a forward in this classification.
Pat, would you consider a four guard AA squad?
Consider? Yes, but in all honesty, I would say it's not that likely we'd choose to go that way.
Rust did not get the e-mail
And as I said in my post, 1 and 4 won't help Rust. But that's why we don't rely on just a couple of methods of contact. I do know there are one or two schools in Division III who don't have an SID, and there is one which doesn't have a website. But those are not the only ways we notify people.
all had to be done was email rstennis@rustcollege.edu
Gotta think - or at least Hope :D - that Michael McClary from Olivet has a shot at the first team. He averaged 26 points, 10 rebounds, 79% FT shooting, playing 35.5 minutes per game.
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:37:05 PM
all had to be done was email rstennis@rustcollege.edu
Do you need some cheese with that whine?
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:37:05 PM
all had to be done was email rstennis@rustcollege.edu
If your men's basketball coach would like to receive every email we send to SIDs about all sports, I will gladly add him to the list. But then I would expect participation in more than men's basketball. Is that likely? That's why we don't do it this way to date -- I doubt many men's basketball coaches want emails with baseball Top 25 and soccer preseason info requests and such.
yes sure sent the basketball to him and sent the rest to me atogreen32@yahoo.com
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 15, 2011, 04:37:15 PM
Gotta think - or at least Hope :D - that Michael McClary from Olivet has a shot at the first team. He averaged 26 points, 10 rebounds, 79% FT shooting, playing 35.5 minutes per game.
Don't be a hater all your life and who are you
and Pat just to let you know we drop soccer for men volleyball
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
and Pat just to let you know we drop soccer for men volleyball
What are your five sports each for men and women and in three seasons that keep you in compliance with the NCAA?
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:47:12 PM
yes sure sent the basketball to him and sent the rest to me atogreen32@yahoo.com
No, the point of an SID is one central point of contact, so I'll use your email address for that.
ok cool
Hey, Pat, I noticed the NABC all-star line-up lists Franks as a F, even though the All-Region team has him as a G.
There's still hope for my line-up on the AA list - and you don't even have to go with four guards.
I think Franks is more a Forward anyway.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 15, 2011, 04:59:28 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on March 15, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
and Pat just to let you know we drop soccer for men volleyball
What are your five sports each for men and women and in three seasons that keep you in compliance with the NCAA?
men and women basketball,volleyball,track,tennis, and cross country
men baseball and women softball and yes it does
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
Hey, Pat, I noticed the NABC all-star line-up lists Franks as a F, even though the All-Region team has him as a G.
There's still hope for my line-up on the AA list - and you don't even have to go with four guards.
I think Franks is more a Forward anyway.
Acknowledging my obvious bias, I would say that Ian Franks is the best
"Point Forward" in the nation since he usually starts the offense for Wooster! ;D ;)
Franks can play the 1,2, or 3 spots, but he's best offensively, as is his team, when he has the ball in his hands, running the offense. Defensively, in Wooster's man-to-man, which is what they always play, he generally guards the opponent's 3-spot, but can handle a 2 or even a small 4. This all depends on who Wooster has on the floor at any given time. Franks is a good defender and a very good rebounder because he's smart. He anticipates very well.
All Americans were announced just prior to the championship game today. I'm sure Pat's busy and hasn't posted the link just yet, but
First Team:
Djurickovic, Carthage
Taylor, Whitworth
Franks, Wooster
Jones, Kean
Whittington, Williams
Michael Taylor was named Player of the Year
They announced four teams and an HM squad. I don't remember all the names.
Woodmore from VAWes was Freshman of the Year.
Its sad when one of the best players in D III Markeith Wilson don't get a vote for All American just look at his numbers and tell me why...WATCH OUT for RUST next year
Quote from: RustCollege on March 20, 2011, 08:20:14 PM
Its sad when one of the best players in D III Markeith Wilson don't get a vote for All American just look at his numbers and tell me why...WATCH OUT for RUST next year
I appreciate your enthusiasm for your school, but I wonder how many of the players who DID make AA you have seen? Aside from sheer statistics (and I haven't reviewed them for your guy or for many of the others), what is your basis for saying Markeith Wilson should replace any of the players who
were named?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2011, 04:12:02 PM
This is probably the result of not having an SID. We take a four-pronged attack to getting the word out to schools to nominate kids.
1) Direct email to SIDs, Feb. 25
2) Notices posted via social media, Twitter and Facebook, between Feb. 25 and March 7
3) Front-page story on D3hoops.com, March 6-7
4) Follow-up emails to conference offices on March 8 to get leagues to identify their stragglers and contact schools.
Now, granted, 1 and 4 won't help Rust but 2 and 3 were visible to anyone who follows Division III basketball closely.
I know at least one person from Rust follows us on Twitter because he took the time to accuse of of being racist for not including any players from Rust. But honestly, there are 400 schools. We cannot help all the schools if they can't help themselves.
He didn't even make the AA- All region team, and Pat explained why in a page prior to this. I'm assuming the same reason for the national team.
OK OK... I've kept quiet for a long time... but I'm the one guy who DID go down to Rust and DID see Markeith Wilson play against Webster... good player .. strong physical 6'3" - 6'4" guard who shot ALOT, from WAY out... and shot very well against Webster...he got off 20 shots in 24 minutes against Webster, hit 6 3 pointers for 31 points. Had Rust properly submitted his name for Regional recognition, he was a legitimate candidate... AA, I don't think, but I missed seeing so many of those recognized, it is hard to make a knowledgeable comparison... Strangely, Markeith's stats vs Webster were from off the bench - he didn't start!!!! Going down to Rust was a great experience... very good crowd, really into the game, great atmosphere....And Holly Springs is a beautiful little town..
So give 'Rust College' a break... he loves his school, he's excited over its players....
BUT... Rust College, next year, get the name in right... and if you want Rust to gain more recognition, you have to play more D3 schools... SCAC, GSAC, SLIAC schools.... maybe even Emory..Wash U
Quote from: hopefan on March 20, 2011, 10:51:15 PM
OK OK... I've kept quiet for a long time... but I'm the one guy who DID go down to Rust and DID see Markeith Wilson play against Webster... good player .. strong physical 6'3" - 6'4" guard who shot ALOT, from WAY out... and shot very well against Webster...he got off 20 shots in 24 minutes against Webster, hit 6 3 pointers for 31 points. Had Rust properly submitted his name for Regional recognition, he was a legitimate candidate... AA, I don't think, but I missed seeing so many of those recognized, it is hard to make a knowledgeable comparison... Strangely, Markeith's stats vs Webster were from off the bench - he didn't start!!!! Going down to Rust was a great experience... very good crowd, really into the game, great atmosphere....And Holly Springs is a beautiful little town..
So give 'Rust College' a break... he loves his school, he's excited over its players....
BUT... Rust College, next year, get the name in right... and if you want Rust to gain more recognition, you have to play more D3 schools... SCAC, GSAC, SLIAC schools.... maybe even Emory..Wash U
You are right about Rust College needing to play more D3 schools, but schools in Missouri are not in-region!
Holly Springs is in the middle of D3-nowhere. Only Rhodes is close. Everyone else in the region is 3 hours away. And as an independent, once conference plays starts in the ASC and SCAC, the travel partners tie up the scheduling dates.
I thought that Rust played its best D3 schedule (in 2010-11) that I can remember.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 20, 2011, 11:58:01 PM
Quote from: hopefan on March 20, 2011, 10:51:15 PM
OK OK... I've kept quiet for a long time... but I'm the one guy who DID go down to Rust and DID see Markeith Wilson play against Webster... good player .. strong physical 6'3" - 6'4" guard who shot ALOT, from WAY out... and shot very well against Webster...he got off 20 shots in 24 minutes against Webster, hit 6 3 pointers for 31 points. Had Rust properly submitted his name for Regional recognition, he was a legitimate candidate... AA, I don't think, but I missed seeing so many of those recognized, it is hard to make a knowledgeable comparison... Strangely, Markeith's stats vs Webster were from off the bench - he didn't start!!!! Going down to Rust was a great experience... very good crowd, really into the game, great atmosphere....And Holly Springs is a beautiful little town..
So give 'Rust College' a break... he loves his school, he's excited over its players....
BUT... Rust College, next year, get the name in right... and if you want Rust to gain more recognition, you have to play more D3 schools... SCAC, GSAC, SLIAC schools.... maybe even Emory..Wash U
You are right about Rust College needing to play more D3 schools, but schools in Missouri are not in-region!
Holly Springs is in the middle of D3-nowhere. Only Rhodes is close. Everyone else in the region is 3 hours away. And as an independent, once conference plays starts in the ASC and SCAC, the travel partners tie up the scheduling dates.
I thought that Rust played its best D3 schedule (in 2010-11) that I can remember.
Yeah, they remind me of Chapman out west. Once everyone else is playing conference games, who the heck are they gonna play? :P
Hopefully Chapman will finally be accepted by the SCIAC. Is Rust courting anyone for conference play?
So I looked up Lamonte Thomas' stats today. He's already at 1989 points in three seasons. If he repeats his 921 point performance next year (admittedly a tall order, but obviously possible), he'll be only 30 points short of the all-time record.
He averaged 30, 6, and 6 this year. Quite an impressive performance.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 21, 2011, 12:04:17 AM
Yeah, they remind me of Chapman out west. Once everyone else is playing conference games, who the heck are they gonna play? :P
Hopefully Chapman will finally be accepted by the SCIAC. Is Rust courting anyone for conference play?
I feel the same though I may be wrong but in my opinion the chances for Chapman to be accepted in the SCIAC are slim to none. Next year, I heard that Chapman has beefed up its schedule yet again. But this means a tougher schedule and more games early in the season, with the usual suspects (meaning non-D3 and arguably weaker teams) to be played when Conference play has started. In the last two season, it sure didn't help Chapman properly prepare for their tough post-season run.
Thanks Hopefan....But let me tell them something we have a SID and we voted every year but didn't get a chance because we didn't get the email about the voting. D3hoops.com change a lot because all the other times i voted it was done on d3hoops.com and for All American it was done by mail but me and Pat already talked about that so next year we will be voting again.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 20, 2011, 08:27:06 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on March 20, 2011, 08:20:14 PM
Its sad when one of the best players in D III Markeith Wilson don't get a vote for All American just look at his numbers and tell me why...WATCH OUT for RUST next year
I appreciate your enthusiasm for your school, but I wonder how many of the players who DID make AA you have seen? Aside from sheer statistics (and I haven't reviewed them for your guy or for many of the others), what is your basis for saying Markeith Wilson should replace any of the players who were named?
no disrespect but i can name a few he can replace and i willing to bet all of them start for there team but Mr. Wilson come of the bench to put up the kind of numbers he put up
Quote from: RustCollege on March 21, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Thanks Hopefan....But let me tell them something we have a SID and we voted every year but didn't get a chance because we didn't get the email about the voting. D3hoops.com change a lot because all the other times i voted it was done on d3hoops.com and for All American it was done by mail but me and Pat already talked about that so next year we will be voting again.
Just for the record, D3hoops.com has never done anything by mail. Perhaps you're thinking of the NABC.
Being a website, we've always done
everything online.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2011, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on March 21, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
Thanks Hopefan....But let me tell them something we have a SID and we voted every year but didn't get a chance because we didn't get the email about the voting. D3hoops.com change a lot because all the other times i voted it was done on d3hoops.com and for All American it was done by mail but me and Pat already talked about that so next year we will be voting again.
Just for the record, D3hoops.com has never done anything by mail. Perhaps you're thinking of the NABC.
Being a website, we've always done everything online.
Yea that is what im talking about the NABC they mail it to me last year but didn't this year and as for D3hoops i didn't see where the voting was done that's why i didn't do it this year
I wonder why Markeith Wilson did not get a vote for preseason All American
1. Whose Pre-season AA list?
2. Posted where?
3. Most of these thing never display a vote total, how do you know he got no votes?
Quote from: mass_d3fan on October 02, 2011, 09:12:58 PM
1. Whose Pre-season AA list?
2. Posted where?
3. Most of these thing never display a vote total, how do you know he got no votes?
It was in Sporting New Mag
Quote from: RustCollege on October 02, 2011, 08:53:44 PM
I wonder why Markeith Wilson did not get a vote for preseason All American
I glanced at the SN magazine today. It is just an alphabetical list for the 'honarable' mentions. No vote totals were given. Im not sure what they used to create that list, but what makes you think your guy got no votes?
Quote from: mass_d3fan on October 05, 2011, 08:21:48 PM
Quote from: RustCollege on October 02, 2011, 08:53:44 PM
I wonder why Markeith Wilson did not get a vote for preseason All American
I glanced at the SN magazine today. It is just an alphabetical list for the 'honarable' mentions. No vote totals were given. Im not sure what they used to create that list, but what makes you think your guy got no votes?
All i'm sayin is one of the best shooters in D3 at 6'4 is not 1st team or 2nd team something have to be wrong
He was indeed one of the best shooters in D-III last year. One of the best 140.
Min. 5 FGM/G
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G FGM FGA FG%
1 Troy Whittington, Williams Sr. 6-6 C 28 168 237 70.9
2 Sean Dart, Willamette So. 6-6 C 20 112 168 66.7
3 Phil Barera, Ithaca Sr. 6-6 C 27 202 309 65.4
4 Mike Case, Hanover Jr. 6-6 F 27 169 262 64.5
5 Travis Clark, Lake Forest Jr. 6-5 C 23 146 227 64.3
6 Scott Robertson, Capital Sr. 6-6 F 27 147 230 63.9
7 Chris McGrew, Salisbury Sr. 6-9 C 27 167 262 63.7
8 Jeff Barczak, Edgewood Sr. 6-7 F 26 135 213 63.4
9 Jon Ward, Ursinus So. 6-10 F 25 154 243 63.4
10 Derek Mitchell, Ferrum Sr. 6-5 F 27 207 327 63.3
...
137 Matt Pepdjonovic, Suffolk So. 6-6 C 26 177 348 50.9
138 Cory Lemons, Cabrini So. 5-10 G 29 188 370 50.8
139 Markeith Wilson, Rust Jr. 6-4 G 24 189 372 50.8
And one of the best 40 in three-point percentage.
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G 3FG 3FGA 3FG%
1 Tom Gisler, Northwestern (MN) So. 6-4 F 28 73 146 50.0
Skylar Tolson, Westminster (MO) So. 6-2 G 27 69 138 50.0
3 Tony Mane, Wis.-La Crosse Sr. 6-0 G 26 82 169 48.5
4 Corey Connor, Bridgewater St. Sr. 6-1 G 29 89 185 48.1
5 Matt Fiorino, King's (PA) So. 5-10 G 23 63 131 48.1
6 Anthony Trautman, Lebanon Valley Sr. 6-1 G 29 83 174 47.7
7 Josh Haymore, Piedmont Jr. 5-10 G 25 81 170 47.6
8 Eryk Watson, Maryville (TN) Sr. 6-3 G 26 94 199 47.2
9 Pj Taylor, Lewis & Clark Jr. 5-10 G 26 88 191 46.1
10 Alex Gulotta, Emory Jr. 6-0 G 25 71 155 45.8
...
37 Cameron Cook, Hood Fr. 6-3 F 26 69 170 40.6
38 Bryant Winans, Cazenovia Jr. 6-0 G 24 75 185 40.5
39 Matt Hilton, Ursinus Sr. 5-11 G 25 63 156 40.4
40 Markeith Wilson, Rust Jr. 6-4 G 24 75 186 40.3
Unless the first and second teams have 10 shooters each (what is this, USA Football?) then there's nothing wrong with him not being on it.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2011, 01:47:29 AM
He was indeed one of the best shooters in D-III last year. One of the best 140.
Min. 5 FGM/G
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G FGM FGA FG%
1 Troy Whittington, Williams Sr. 6-6 C 28 168 237 70.9
2 Sean Dart, Willamette So. 6-6 C 20 112 168 66.7
3 Phil Barera, Ithaca Sr. 6-6 C 27 202 309 65.4
4 Mike Case, Hanover Jr. 6-6 F 27 169 262 64.5
5 Travis Clark, Lake Forest Jr. 6-5 C 23 146 227 64.3
6 Scott Robertson, Capital Sr. 6-6 F 27 147 230 63.9
7 Chris McGrew, Salisbury Sr. 6-9 C 27 167 262 63.7
8 Jeff Barczak, Edgewood Sr. 6-7 F 26 135 213 63.4
9 Jon Ward, Ursinus So. 6-10 F 25 154 243 63.4
10 Derek Mitchell, Ferrum Sr. 6-5 F 27 207 327 63.3
...
137 Matt Pepdjonovic, Suffolk So. 6-6 C 26 177 348 50.9
138 Cory Lemons, Cabrini So. 5-10 G 29 188 370 50.8
139 Markeith Wilson, Rust Jr. 6-4 G 24 189 372 50.8
And one of the best 40 in three-point percentage.
Rank Name, Team Cl Ht Pos G 3FG 3FGA 3FG%
1 Tom Gisler, Northwestern (MN) So. 6-4 F 28 73 146 50.0
Skylar Tolson, Westminster (MO) So. 6-2 G 27 69 138 50.0
3 Tony Mane, Wis.-La Crosse Sr. 6-0 G 26 82 169 48.5
4 Corey Connor, Bridgewater St. Sr. 6-1 G 29 89 185 48.1
5 Matt Fiorino, King's (PA) So. 5-10 G 23 63 131 48.1
6 Anthony Trautman, Lebanon Valley Sr. 6-1 G 29 83 174 47.7
7 Josh Haymore, Piedmont Jr. 5-10 G 25 81 170 47.6
8 Eryk Watson, Maryville (TN) Sr. 6-3 G 26 94 199 47.2
9 Pj Taylor, Lewis & Clark Jr. 5-10 G 26 88 191 46.1
10 Alex Gulotta, Emory Jr. 6-0 G 25 71 155 45.8
...
37 Cameron Cook, Hood Fr. 6-3 F 26 69 170 40.6
38 Bryant Winans, Cazenovia Jr. 6-0 G 24 75 185 40.5
39 Matt Hilton, Ursinus Sr. 5-11 G 25 63 156 40.4
40 Markeith Wilson, Rust Jr. 6-4 G 24 75 186 40.3
Unless the first and second teams have 10 shooters each (what is this, USA Football?) then there's nothing wrong with him not being on it.
That's nice an all but none of them are better then him just ask any coach in the south that we played an you will see i just wish we had TV to show D3 games he is the best Guard hands down....he can post any little guard on this list
An oldie but goodie:
News out of Potsdam, New York today announcing that former Potsdam great and All American, Mike Deane will be inducted into the New York State Basketball Hall of Fame. May have to get some Plattsburgh boys together and make a trip to Glens Falls to attend the ceremony in March. Still remember vividly when his 14th seeded Siena team upset the 3rd seeded Stanford Cardinal team in the NCAA tournament 20 some years ago. I believe at the time, it was the biggest upset in tournament history. A well deserved honor for Mike, one of the greatest passers I've ever seen. He averaged a double-double of 18.1 ppg and 10.06 assists per game for his career. He almost made the Milwaukee Bucks team the year Oscar Robertson retired, being the last player cut from training camp. Here's the write up from the Bears website:
GLENS FALLS, N.Y. Dec.20 2011—The Basketball Coaches Association of New York has announced that former SUNY Potsdam All-American basketball player Mike Deane '74 has been selected for induction into the New York State Basketball Hall of Fame. Deane will be inducted with nine other members of the 2012 class on March 18.
As a player, Deane was one of the finest to ever don a Bears uniform. His 18.1 points-per-game average over three seasons is the highest in the history of the program. Deane is also Potsdam's career assist leader with 805 and he ranks sixth all-time with in scoring with 1,447 points in 80 games. As a senior in 1974, Deane was named the first of 13 Bears' basketball All-Americans. The Stony Point, N.Y. native was inducted into the Bears Hall of Fame in 1984.
After Potsdam, Deane served as a college head coach at Oswego State, Siena, Marquette, Lamar, and Wagner. In 26 seasons from 1980-2010, Deane amassed a 437-332 coaching record. His teams made four National Invitational Tournament appearances, including the championship game with Marquette in 1994, and four NCAA Tournament appearances.
The induction ceremony will take place at 10 a.m. in Heritage Hall at the Glens Falls Civic Center during the Federation State Tournament.
Pat, what's the schedule for all-region and all-american teams to be announced?
All region today, all americans next week:
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2011-12/index
All-Americans later this week, actually.
My fault, do you take into consideration the last 4 games (tourney games) when making those selections?
No nerd... we only look at the season... just kidding... everything is taken into account.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 12, 2012, 04:14:48 PM
No nerd... we only look at the season... just kidding... everything is taken into account.
Well, wasn't sure because they are released before the Final 4, that's why I thought they may be released next week.
They will be released I think on Championship game-day.
They have been released at the Final Four for at least the past decade. It's primarily based on the regular season but we would be fools to ignore games in the past three weeks, especially ones that happen right in front of us in Salem and (this year) Holland.
We might release on Friday this year but the principle remains the same.
Pat,
When will the All Star Game rosters be released?
I got four of the five NE players correct. You went with a third guard (Berthiaume) over a Center (Hollingsworth). Completely defensible.
I'm a CCC guy, but Kates should definitely have been ahead of Ryan Birrell - he did have good stats though and carried a pretty weak team.
There's a lot of good forwards out there this year. Davis, Sharry, McCrary, Burridge for POY? Will Lemons and Milligan be the backcourt on the AA first team? You could make a good argument.
This year, more than any in recent memory, is much more of a toss-up. Usually there's one or two players who separate themselves during the season. We have lot of good candidates this year. I don't envy you guys having to choose.
Quote from: magicman on March 12, 2012, 07:17:50 PM
Pat,
When will the All Star Game rosters be released?
I was kind of expecting them today, so not really sure.
Hey Pat,
I read that the voting on the Regional teams is done by SIDs/coaches still? Is there any voting/adjustments done by the d3hoops staff, or is it purely based on those votes?
So if we don't agree with a certain position, it may just be that certain conferences had better turnout on voting than others, or conferences with more teams technically can get weighted more (since each SID gets one vote, I am assuming)?
Also, the AA teams are selected solely by the d3hoops staff, correct?
D3hoops.com staff also votes but there's one or two of us and 10-12 SIDs in any given region. It is not about turnout, since we give each conference one ballot for every four teams or so. When it used to be open to all SIDs, there were definitely some questions about how turnout affected the result, so we balanced the voter panel out over the last few years instead.
All-American is just staff. We'll definitely pick other people's brains on it, but take it upon ourselves for the final result.
Thanks.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2012
All-America teams out. Once again littered with Seniors. A solid group.
No POY just yet. I think Davis has to be the favorite.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2012, 03:38:36 PM
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2012
All-America teams out. Once again littered with Seniors. A solid group.
No POY just yet. I think Davis has to be the favorite.
Yes. We were waiting for the end of the game, which we often do when candidate(s) are still playing. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 18, 2012, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 17, 2012, 03:38:36 PM
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2012
All-America teams out. Once again littered with Seniors. A solid group.
No POY just yet. I think Davis has to be the favorite.
Yes. We were waiting for the end of the game, which we often do when candidate(s) are still playing. :)
I realize that this is the men's board, but is that also the reason for the delay in the women's POY? Did it come down to Lett vs. Gordon, winner get TWO trophies?
Verkaik was also in the mix, but yes.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 18, 2012, 09:10:16 PM
Verkaik was also in the mix, but yes.
As well she deserved to be. Thanks for the response (wasn't at all sure you'd be willing to reveal the 'short list').
I definitely considered carefully before responding. :) But I figured this was a season in which the list probably wouldn't surprise.
Exactly three guards and two forwards coming back next year. Do we have early pre-season AA favorites?
I'm not sure why any of those guys wouldn't be on the list.
Sheesh... the champions were crowned two days ago... Hoopsville wraps up the season tonight... and you are asking for predictions for pre-season AA's already?!
I should knock your karma for asking such a question when we barely have detoxed from the 2011-2012 season! ;)
D3 Hoops is like crack for some people, they just can't get enough.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2012, 05:17:12 PM
Sheesh... the champions were crowned two days ago... Hoopsville wraps up the season tonight... and you are asking for predictions for pre-season AA's already?!
I should knock your karma for asking such a question when we barely have detoxed from the 2011-2012 season!
You have to detox from it - the rest of us haven't yet recognized our addiction. We're just enjoying the ride.
I was simply pointing out the coincidence of having a full five man team of underclassmen ready to go for next year (and a very fine team, at that).
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 19, 2012, 05:17:12 PM
Sheesh... the champions were crowned two days ago... Hoopsville wraps up the season tonight... and you are asking for predictions for pre-season AA's already?!
I should knock your karma for asking such a question when we barely have detoxed from the 2011-2012 season! ;)
Actually, I usually start creating the next year's list right now while it's fresh in my mind.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 12, 2012, 04:18:20 PM
They have been released at the Final Four for at least the past decade. It's primarily based on the regular season but we would be fools to ignore games in the past three weeks, especially ones that happen right in front of us in Salem and (this year) Holland.
We might release on Friday this year but the principle remains the same.
Part of me wants to argue this point, but I would never be foolish enough to argue with Pat! LOL ;)
However, I do find it a little hard to believe that Chris Davis would be POTY
based primarily on the regular season. Yes, he did win conference player of the year in the WIAC, but I'm not sure how much that actually factored into the equation. On the other hand, he did average something like 25 points a game in the tourney and was named Most Outstanding Player at the Final Four and, of course, his team won the National Championship.
So, based on those facts, I would guess the All-American voting would be at least 50/50 between regular season and post season. My same thoughts would go to Pat Miller winning Coach of the Year. Just my thoughts.
I can tell you there were many candidates... but when it came down to making a decision... some of the candidates were eliminated because of what they and their team's did in the tourney. It left a couple of choices... and Davis, to me, was one that deserved to be recognized due to the fact I don't think UWW is in the championship game without him.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 20, 2012, 11:20:38 AM
I can tell you there were many candidates... but when it came down to making a decision... some of the candidates were eliminated because of what they and their team's did in the tourney. It left a couple of choices... and Davis, to me, was one that deserved to be recognized due to the fact I don't think UWW is in the championship game without him.
This would make me think that the original list came from the regular season and the "final list" came from the tourney. What do you think the reg. season/post season ratio would be then?
Depends on the player, the team, the circumstances, etc. There is no clear ratio... remember, we awarded Ben Strong the Player of the Year when Guilford lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament at home against St. Mary's. Strong was CLEARLY the Player of the Year that year, so the tournament didn't play as big a factor... other years it plays a bigger factor.
Player... team... circumstances... etc.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 20, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
However, I do find it a little hard to believe that Chris Davis would be POTY based primarily on the regular season. Yes, he did win conference player of the year in the WIAC, but I'm not sure how much that actually factored into the equation. On the other hand, he did average something like 25 points a game in the tourney and was named Most Outstanding Player at the Final Four and, of course, his team won the National Championship.
I don't see as many games as Pat or Dave, but going into the tournament, Davis was at the top of my list, along with Sharry. Maybe it was because of the publicity, but I think both were quite deserving.
I do think that there weren't a ton of stand-outs this year, so tournament play likely had more to do with the decision this year than in other years.
After watching a lot of tournament games and the all-star game, I feel like there were a solid 5-8 guys who could have legitimately won POY. That's pretty unusual for d3, at least in my decade of experience.
Coach of the Year, I feel, should have gone to Cabrini, but its tough to argue giving it to the guy who won.
Now that the regular season is over, I think this time to revive this board.
Two candidates from MIT, that I think most people close to D3 basketball have heard of, Mitchell Kates and Will Tashman (MIT actually has four 1000 point scorers on their roster, unfortunately 2 of them have been hurt all year).
Mitch Kates - G, MIT
3rd Team 2012-2013 D3hoops.com Preseason All-American
4th Team 2011-2012 D3hoops.com All-American
1st Team All-NEWMAC 2012-2013
2012-2013 Season:
14.8 ppg, 47.3% FG, 36.9% 3FG, 83.0% FT
4.8 apg
3.4 rpg
2.5 spg
Career: Currently at 1616 points (4th on MIT career list), 541 assists (1st on MIT career list), 392 rebounds, and 254 steals (1st on MIT career list). Only player in MIT history to compile over 500 assists or 250 steals.
Will Tashman - F, MIT
NEWMAC POY 2012-2013
1st Team All-NEWMAC 2012-2013
2012 Final Four All-Tourney Team
2012-2013 Season:
16.0 ppg, 58.1% FG, 75.0% FT
10.8 rpg
2.5 apg
Averaged 21.5 ppg and 15.0 rpg the last 4 games of the season.
Career: Currently at 1391 points (10th on MIT career list), 1014 rebounds (1st on MIT career list), 266 assists, and 111 steals. Only player in MIT history to reach the 1000/1000 club. He has never received All-American recognition, but he has shut down several during his career (eg, Farmingdale State last year in the tourney). He has to be one of the top 2-3 PFs in the country, if not the best.
The elite teams seem to be unusually balanced this year (few ridiculous stat lines on players on Top 25 teams, outside of DiBartolomeo), so this should be very challenging. I think NESCAC is an exception in that regard, and features several strong candidates for all-American honors: Mayer and Epley from Williams, Kizell from Midd, Toomey and Workman from Amherst are all guys who warrant consideration, as all have put up super-impressive stat lines for top-ten teams. And considering that all but Workman are juniors, I can see NESCAC easily having four first or second team pre-season all-Americans next year ...
Quote from: nescac1 on February 26, 2013, 02:11:32 PM
The elite teams seem to be unusually balanced this year (few ridiculous stat lines on players on Top 25 teams, outside of DiBartolomeo), so this should be very challenging. I think NESCAC is an exception in that regard, and features several strong candidates for all-American honors: Mayer and Epley from Williams, Kizell from Midd, Toomey and Workman from Amherst are all guys who warrant consideration, as all have put up super-impressive stat lines for top-ten teams. And considering that all but Workman are juniors, I can see NESCAC easily having four first or second team pre-season all-Americans next year ...
Let's just see how they do in the tournament. Shooting sleeves and flopping against rugged teams from the ODAC, WIAC, and HCAC to name a few could have some input to the AA pre-annointment. ;D
Jake Simmons from Buffalo State surpassed 2000 points this year for his career. Certainly should be on D3hoops list of All Americans somewhere.
Here is a television story that the NBC Buffalo TV affiliate just aired concerning Jake's life story. Quite a story about an amazing young man.
http://www.wgrz.com/rss/article/202771/37/Rising-Son-The-Story-of-Jake-Simmons
That's a great story, Prestidigitator. Thanks for linking it.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 27, 2013, 07:54:47 PM
That's a great story, Prestidigitator. Thanks for linking it.
Hard to have some dry eyes after watching that story. Glad you liked it, Greg.
John Dibartolomeo (Rochester) ends his Career as a Legitimate 1st Team All American and one of the Most decorated players to ever play at A college in The Rochester area. In Rochesters great Basketball tradition and great players.. Guys who have to be in that category are 1994 Player of the Year Scott Fitch (Geneseo) now Fairport High School Boys Basketball Coach. Corey McAdam who carried a Very inexperianced Nazareth team in 2009-2010 and was a 1st Team All American. I was around that Nazareth and understood how good McAdam was. I am very fortunate i was apart of such Great Person and Player in 2009-2010 at Nazareth. Seth Hauben who was a 1st Team All American in 2005 for Rochester.. Johnny D is THE Best player to play in the East Region in the past 2-3 years. Even know Dibartolomeo didnt have nearly his Greatest game in A Yellow Jacket Uniform he his still One of the best Division 3 Players we have seen in the East Region in the last 10 years. The 2 Best Guards to play in the East Region in the last 10 Years are arguably Corey McAdam and John Dibartolomeo. Fans and Players always compare the Greatest Players of there time and its hard to do. Because Scott Fitch, Corey McAdam and John Dibartolomeo are all different players but are Great in there own way.. Good Luck to Johnny D in his future it was a pleasure to watch you play the last 4 years.
Quote from: dcahill44 on March 10, 2013, 01:25:52 PM
John Dibartolomeo (Rochester) ends his Career as a Legitimate 1st Team All American and one of the Most decorated players to ever play at A college in The Rochester area.
DiBartomoleo is the man!
I read earlier in the year that he plans to pursue a professional career in Europe next season. I can easily see
Giovanni DiBartomoleo making a name for himself on a Serie A team in some picturesque Italian city. Buona fortuna!
Quote from: dcahill44 on March 10, 2013, 01:25:52 PM
John Dibartolomeo (Rochester) ends his Career as a Legitimate 1st Team All American and one of the Most decorated players to ever play at A college in The Rochester area. In Rochesters great Basketball tradition and great players.. Guys who have to be in that category are 1994 Player of the Year Scott Fitch (Geneseo) now Fairport High School Boys Basketball Coach. Corey McAdam who carried a Very inexperianced Nazareth team in 2009-2010 and was a 1st Team All American. I was around that Nazareth and understood how good McAdam was. I am very fortunate i was apart of such Great Person and Player in 2009-2010 at Nazareth. Seth Hauben who was a 1st Team All American in 2005 for Rochester.. Johnny D is THE Best player to play in the East Region in the past 2-3 years. Even know Dibartolomeo didnt have nearly his Greatest game in A Yellow Jacket Uniform he his still One of the best Division 3 Players we have seen in the East Region in the last 10 years. The 2 Best Guards to play in the East Region in the last 10 Years are arguably Corey McAdam and John Dibartolomeo. Fans and Players always compare the Greatest Players of there time and its hard to do. Because Scott Fitch, Corey McAdam and John Dibartolomeo are all different players but are Great in there own way.. Good Luck to Johnny D in his future it was a pleasure to watch you play the last 4 years.
Sounds like you rank Corey McAdam higher than our current Scranton assistant and former Nazareth player Joe Mihalich. ;)
Me and Coach Mihalich are very good friends and yes i have to put McAdam over Mihalich
Nicely made highlight video of Mitch Kates (MIT):
Despite the loss, his highlights from the Harvard game this year are amazing (first string of highlights on the clip).
http://vimeo.com/61886886
where do you vote for preseason All American 6'6 G/F Larry Veasley and 6'0 PG Kwahmere Gredic should be on there this up coming season
where do you vote for preseason All American 6'6 G/F Larry Veasley and 6'0 PG Kwahmere Gredic should be on there this up coming season
Preseason list is out. Lots of Seniors, as always. Also the list seems to be light on post players. There are some good ones there, but the competition for those spots seems lighter than in recent years.
At least one pretty darn good post player was relegated to the third team (see NESCAC board for lots more discussion on that :)). Gamble, Cross, and Mayer, in all events, are a pretty darn talented post trio. I don't know which guys among the other frontcourt nominees (e.g. Schleigh) are true post players, but I would think there are a few others ...
Left off this year's list for good reason (hurt most of last year), Tyler Tillema of Stevens Point, will make a run at AA after being named 2nd team preseason last year. He makes Point a Top 5 team this year and a clear favorite to win the league and a candidate for conference POTY.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on November 08, 2013, 03:22:12 PM
Left off this year's list for good reason (hurt most of last year), Tyler Tillema of Stevens Point, will make a run at AA after being named 2nd team preseason last year. He makes Point a Top 5 team this year and a clear favorite to win the league and a candidate for conference POTY.
Weighing in 2/3 of the way thru: I think Tyler is a lock for AA (probably first team), but at present suspect Aaron Walton-Moss will beat him out for POY. (Aaron Toomey will also definitely be in the POY conversation.)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 27, 2014, 10:55:58 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on November 08, 2013, 03:22:12 PM
Left off this year's list for good reason (hurt most of last year), Tyler Tillema of Stevens Point, will make a run at AA after being named 2nd team preseason last year. He makes Point a Top 5 team this year and a clear favorite to win the league and a candidate for conference POTY.
Weighing in 2/3 of the way thru: I think Tyler is a lock for AA (probably first team), but at present suspect Aaron Walton-Moss will beat him out for POY. (Aaron Toomey will also definitely be in the POY conversation.)
As much as I'd like to be all homer or go TGHIJGSTO, I'd have to agree with you on AW-M. Averaging over 26 ppg & 10 rpg & almost 6 apg while leading an unbeaten team is pretty impressive. Tillema is close, but 21/5/5 isn't quite the same. I know Tyler has a few game winners and has carried Point on his back to wins, but I'm sure AW-M has too.
And Walton-Moss is not playing at the top of his game right now. He's got one, maybe two more gears he can kick in when it counts.
Admittedly not knowing much about Cabrini, aside from W-M, and the CSAC, I would think competition plays a part and Tillema has the edge there. W-M doesn't have Hass either. Even as a Pointer fan, I may give it to W-M.
I've had the chance to see both play at least a couple games in person and, at this point, I'd put Aaron Walton-Moss and Tillema at the top of the list of POY candidates with the winner decided by post-season performance.
UW-Stevens Point and Cabrini fans can do both players more justice than I can, but Tillema is the most clutch player I've seen this year in terms of making plays (shots and otherwise) when the game is on the line. Walton-Moss is the most uniquely talented. Last week against Neumann Walton Moss played around the rim like a forward/low post defender and brought the ball up the court like a point guard. I can't think of any other D3 player that does both with his level of skill and production.
AWM is a remarkable talent. His rebounding skill should remind people that size does not always dictate rebounding and post play. He out rebounds and pushes guys that are 6'8 around. Cabrini losing their point guard was a big loss. AWM is the best in the country at finding his way to the hoop and he is surrounded with shooters who can knock down shots. As long as Cabrini can defend and rebound, they can beat anyone.
A quick note to give Tyler Gaffaney from Claremont-Mudd-Scripps some national recognition. He was a first team all conference guard as a Sophmore and was hurt all last year, but has come back this year with some incredible stats and is a complete player for the Stags.
2013-14 Overall Stats: 18.2ppg, 60% fg, 45% 3pt, 76% ft, 5.5rpg, 3.4apg
2013-14 Conference Stats: 20.4ppg, 66% fg, 54% 3pt, 86% ft, along with 5rpg, 3apg and 2stl/game.
While they aren't eye-popping, the Stags are averaging 64ppg overall and 68ppg in conference. Tyler is getting all the focus on him in conference opponents defensive plans and he is still performing at a very high level. More than anything his efficiency on the offensive end is incredible for a guard.
On defense he is tasked with guarding the other teams best perimeter player and is averaging 35+ minutes a game.
He is the best player in the SCIAC and I think should be in consideration for some national accolades given how dominant he has been against the SCIAC and even GSAC (NAIA-1) teams
With the All-Region teams out - http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2013-14/index - it's time to speculate on the All-American teams.
I think Tillema, Toomey, and Walton-Moss are locks. I'd give Toomey the edge for POY simply because his team is still playing - largely because of his effort.
I think Michael Mayer deserves to be on the first team. He's the best big man in the country, in my opinion.
From there, I don't know if we need to force another big guy onto the team or if we can go with four guards. DJ Woodmore probably gets my vote next. If we need a big man, Kyle Schleigh from UT-Dallas; he was very impressive to me in the tournament.
Just bringing this up to add Tavon Sledge to the watch list. He's a 5'9" PG at Albertus Magnus - a transfer from Iona.
This doesn't appear to be a kid with big dreams who missed out at d1. He went to Iowa State for a year, then transferred to Iona, where he starred on the team - including scoring 20 points against Ohio State in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. From the stats available it seems like he fell out of favor on the team last year.
I went to the game without knowing any of this - only that he was new and had a good reputation. He really impressed on the court. He's 5'9", but he's very strong and super, super quick. His handle is out of this world and his court vision is really special. I haven't seen anyone look so at home and in control on the court since Cory Lemons at Cabrini - those players who likely should be playing at a higher level and everything just seems to look easy for them.
Sledge was definitely a pass-first guard, but he scored 32 in their opener, so he can do that, too. He didn't foul anyone most of the game, even as he played really tight, aggressive defense (another good sign of his awareness and control).
I'm not coming in with any bias - in fact I was pretty repulsed by the way AMC played overall, but Sledge was great. He and Big Vic are a pretty impressive inside-outside combo. If the rest of the guys get their heads on straight and fall in line, AMC could be very formidable.
The obvious drawback for Sledge is that he's 5'9," but he's incredibly athletic and strong. He had two pretty impressive breakaway dunks and they even threw an alley-oop for him in traffic that would've been very nice had the pass not been telegraphed.
Keep an eye out.
Gordon Lyons has opened the season on a tear and he is the leading candidate for the SUNYAC Player of the Week and ECAC Upstate Player of the Week after the first 2 games of his Senior season. He left no doubt why he was selected as a D3hoops preseason All American. He was named to the 2nd Team but if he continues to put up numbers like he did this weekend the boys at this website will have no choice but to bump him up to the 1st team at year's end. Last year Gordon had 17 double doubles in 28 games. He may break that mark this season. Here is the 2 day total that Gordon put up this weekend. With numbers like these, I hope that the school nominates him for the D3hoops Team of the Week...I think he's a lock if nominated.
51 points...23 today and 28 yesterday
30 rebounds...15 today and 15 yesterday
10 assists 5 each day... He now leads the team in that category as well.
17x24 from the field 70.8 %
17x21 from the line 80.9%
Played 78 out of 80 minutes
Ast/TO 2.0
Geneseo's season got a late start as their opening game of the year against Medaille on Tuesday Nov. 18th was postponed due to the bad weather in Western NY. They opened up in the Case Western Reserve Tournament this weekend and went 1-1 as they lost to Wilmington in a barnburner 83-81. Today they defeated Rose-Hulman by a 73-57 margin.
Likely not an all-american, but certainly, in the NE region that lost so many post players from last year, Gordon's Hans Miersma went for 23 and 24 tonight in a rivalry game against Endicott. Someone to keep an eye on.
Looks like some of the first All American Teams are out. Great to see Tyler Gaffaney on the list here as 2nd Team CoSIDA CapitalOne Academic All American.
I think this will be the beginning of many accolades for Tyler. He has made a strong push for West Region POY, in my opinion, and should be a 1st Team All American
His stat line is 22.3ppg, 55% FG, 46% 3pt, 85% ft%, 6.6rpg and 3.6apg. He also guards the other teams best player and plays 36mpg in a physically demanding system.
According to my PER metrics he is also has the 4th highest PER in the nation and is tops in the West Region.
http://www.cosida.com/documents/2015/2/24/2014_15_CapOne_D3_Basketball_Teams.pdf
Just finished up putting together PER metrics and published the top 100 players in the nation this year. I'll narrow this to include just the NCAA eligible players later this week.
It does seem that the figures skew slightly higher than I would have expected but that could be attributed to the larger variance between players in D3 vs the NBA.
I love seeing Tyler Gaffaney at #3 - he should be a 1st Team All American this year!
http://stag44.blogspot.com/2015/03/ncaa-division-3-per-rankings-march-2.html
With the All-Region teams out, now's time for some speculation.
I think Tyler Gaffney, Aaron Walton-Moss and Gerry Wixted have to be on the first team.
I'd add Big Vic from Albertus as the Center. I know Flannery got ahead of him in player of the year, which makes sense, but Flannery is much more a wing player.
Then, for me, you're choosing between Quardell Young and Jordan Brink - I might lean towards Brink.
I think Tavon Sledge is the best PG in d3, but with just one year of play and a second round exit, he's not done enough to earn that spot.
That being said, I don't have a problem with Flannery taking that other Forward spot - obviously, he's tremendous.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2014-15/index
Anyone have any thoughts on the importance of tourney play for national PoY? Aaron Walton-Moss would certainly be a leading candidate - does Cabrini not even making the field doom his chances? Among other leading candidates, does UWW losing in round one severely damage Quardell Young? How much are Gerry Wixted (Dickinson, lost in Elite Eight) and Joey Flannery (Babson, in the FF) and Hunter Hill (Augie, in the FF) helped by their team's success?
I don't know when voting actually ends, but I would've take A. W-M. off my list as soon as Cabrini didn't make the tourney. I mean, how many times does the COTY end up being the guy who's team won the National Championship? I don't think that's a coincidence unless voting actually ends before that!
Congrats to Gaffaney from CMS for West Region POY!
I certainly think that he should be up for National POTY as well. His numbers and efficiency are the best of any Region POY and he led the Stags to their first NCAA win in 20 years. I think that any team that played CMS would attest to him being the single toughest and most important player they had to play against, including UWSP (he scored more than any player did on UWSP 26pts on 9-12, 2-2 on 3s, and 6-7 from the line).
He should be a lock for 1st team, but I think he is also the National POTY
Aaron Walton-Moss was clearly the best player in d3 this year, but word out of Cabrini is he's also largely responsible for the chemistry issues that plagues the team. I've heard from multiple people that last year with a strong personality in Kahn, plus four seniors, they were able to keep him in check - this year, with a first time head coach and no one to challenge him on the court, his personality has really wreaked havoc.
Again, it's all second hand stuff. I found him pretty amenable and helpful to the young guys when I saw them in November at the Hoopsville tournament, but a lot can change over the course of a disappointing season.
I think he's first team for sure, but not POY. Wixted is my favorite, but Flannery could get it if Babson takes home the title. I wonder if there's ever been a Soph POY for d3hoops?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2015, 04:05:13 PMWixted is my favorite, but Flannery could get it if Babson takes home the title. I wonder if there's ever been a Soph POY for d3hoops?
We've only done player of the year for the past nine years and haven't yet named a sophomore.
This award will be decided before the title game. Dave and I have yet to confer and decide for sure whether it will also be before the semifinals.
As an aside, Sydney Moss was named women's player of the year last year as a sophomore.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2015, 04:08:21 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2015, 04:05:13 PMWixted is my favorite, but Flannery could get it if Babson takes home the title. I wonder if there's ever been a Soph POY for d3hoops?
We've only done player of the year for the past nine years and haven't yet named a sophomore.
This award will be decided before the title game. Dave and I have yet to confer and decide for sure whether it will also be before the semifinals.
I looked back, there's only ever been one Soph on the first team - Derek Reich of Chicago in 2001. I'm still voting for Wixted.
Pat and/or d-mac, I earlier made an open post wondering how important the national tourney was to PoY candidates, but I'd like to address it specifically to you guys, if you're willing to reveal your thinking before the selection is made. (If not, I understand. :))
How damaging to Aaron Walton-Moss is Cabrini not even making it into the field? Is UWW going down in the first round a significant handicap for Quardell Young? How much are Gerry Wixted (E8), Joey Flannery (FF) and Hunter Hill (FF) helped by their teams' successes? Tyler Gaffaney and Jordan Brink didn't get all that far in the tourney, but probably went at least as far as most would have expected - help or hurt?
Honestly... not comfortable indicating what I am thinking as I haven't given it all a solid look-through. I like going through all the candidates - all of them - before I would go and talk about whether someone was hurt by something or helped by something else, etc.
By the way, Wixted and Dickinson lost in the Sweet 16 ;)
I will give you this insight: Ben Strong was Player of the Year despite the fact his team was upset in the first round of the tournament by SMC and Duncan Robinson was not the Rookie of the Year in the Northeast last year but was national Rookie of the Year. Just some food for thought.
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2015/03/nabc-names-2015-all-star-rosters
NABC Roster out - how is this selection done? Curious not seeing Tyler Gaffaney on this roster and Arik Smith instead. Great to see a SCIAC representative regardless but just curious on the selection process
Quote from: stag44 on March 17, 2015, 10:25:02 AM
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2015/03/nabc-names-2015-all-star-rosters
NABC Roster out - how is this selection done? Curious not seeing Tyler Gaffaney on this roster and Arik Smith instead. Great to see a SCIAC representative regardless but just curious on the selection process
Could be that Gaffaney was offered a spot but declined. The NABC is usually very much into the conference player of the year above all else.
I'm putting money on the East, if I can find a line anywhere.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 17, 2015, 10:32:56 AM
Quote from: stag44 on March 17, 2015, 10:25:02 AM
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2015/03/nabc-names-2015-all-star-rosters
NABC Roster out - how is this selection done? Curious not seeing Tyler Gaffaney on this roster and Arik Smith instead. Great to see a SCIAC representative regardless but just curious on the selection process
Could be that Gaffaney was offered a spot but declined. The NABC is usually very much into the conference player of the year above all else.
From what I've heard Gaffaney was not offered a spot
Does anyone know if the D3 All Star game is going to be broadcasted??? I know it says 12:30......right before the Championship game but I didn't see anything on whether or not they were going to broadcast this game to the public??? Any info???
There will be an NCAA.com stream. We'll have links on the website.
Great.......Thanks Pat
Here's the NABC release that came out earlier today announcing their All Americans.
National Association of Basketball Coaches Announces 2015 NABC Coaches' Division III All-America Teams
KANSAS CITY, Mo. (March 19, 2015) --
The National Association of Basketball Coaches (NABC) announced today the 2015 NABC Coaches' Division III All-America teams. Selected and voted on by member coaches of the NABC in NCAA Division III, these student-athletes represent the finest basketball players across America.
2015 NABC COACHES' DIVISION III ALL-AMERICA FIRST TEAM
Joey Flannery, Babson, 6-5, Sophomore, Forward, Acton, Mass.
Alex Foster, Emory, 6-8, Senior, Forward, Portland, Ore.
Claude Gray, Ohio Wesleyan, 6-4, Junior, Post, Avon, Ohio
Gordon Lyons, Geneseo State, 6-5, Senior, Forward, Amherst, N.Y.
Aaron Walton-Moss, Cabrini, 6-1, Senior, Guard, Camden, N.J.
Gerry Wixted, Dickinson, 6-8, Senior, Forward, Moorestown, N.J.
Quardell Young, UW-Whitewater, 6-0, Senior, Guard, Kenosha, Wis.
Kyle Zimmerman, Bethel University, 6-3, Senior, Forward, Champlin, Minn.
2015 NABC COACHES' DIVISION III ALL-AMERICA SECOND TEAM
Josh Blamon, Richard Stockton, 6-2, Senior, Forward, Cinnaminson, N.J.
Jordan Brink, Calvin, 6-3, Senior, Guard, Dyer, Ind.
John Coleman, Clarkson, 6-4, Senior, Forward, Potsdam, N.Y.
Tyler Gaffaney, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, 6-4, Graduate, Guard, Mill Valley, Calif.
Hunter Hill, Augustana (Ill.), 5-9, Junior, Guard, Byron, Ill.
Nick LaGuerre, St. Mary's, 6-3, Senior, Guard, Baltimore, Md.
Victor Ljuljdjuraj, Albertus Magnus, 6-8, Senior, Forward, Yorktown Heights, N.Y.
Matt McCarthy, Guilford, 6-3, Junior, Guard, Rockville, Md.
2015 NABC COACHES' DIVISION III ALL-AMERICA THIRD TEAM
Kai Deans, Sage, 6-7, Senior, Forward/Center, Miami, Fla.
Bernard Edwards, Defiance, 6-6, Senior, Forward, Detroit, Mich.
Bryson Fonville, Catholic, 6-0, Junior, Guard, Greensboro, N.C.
Lucas Hausman, Bowdoin College, 6-3, Junior, Guard, Westport, Conn.
Kenny Love, Whitworth, 6-1, Sophomore, Guard, Santa Rosa, Calif.
Dylan Overstreet, Illinois Wesleyan, 6-3, Senior, Guard, Paxton, Ill.
Keegan Ryan, St. John Fisher, 6-7, Sophomore, Forward/Center, Plattsburgh, N.Y.
Larry Thomas, Birmingham-Southern, 6-1, Senior, Guard, Atlanta, Ga.
Quote from: stag44 on March 17, 2015, 10:31:06 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 17, 2015, 10:32:56 AM
Quote from: stag44 on March 17, 2015, 10:25:02 AM
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2015/03/nabc-names-2015-all-star-rosters
NABC Roster out - how is this selection done? Curious not seeing Tyler Gaffaney on this roster and Arik Smith instead. Great to see a SCIAC representative regardless but just curious on the selection process
Could be that Gaffaney was offered a spot but declined. The NABC is usually very much into the conference player of the year above all else.
From what I've heard Gaffaney was not offered a spot
Then you have to ask if he was nominated. It's an NABC production, so there has to be a coach who is an NABC member there to nominate him, and he has to be nominated.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2015
They're out.
I've got no problem with any of these. Wixted is a worthy POY. Great player.
Also, anyone find a boxscore for the all-star game this morning?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2015, 03:39:36 PM
Also, anyone find a boxscore for the all-star game this morning?
https://twitter.com/d3hoops/status/579336822074953730
Quote from: Titan Q on March 21, 2015, 04:05:12 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2015, 03:39:36 PM
Also, anyone find a boxscore for the all-star game this morning?
https://twitter.com/d3hoops/status/579336822074953730
The announcer sarcastically said the refs were really tightening up the calls in the 2nd half of the all-star game. Got a good chuckle from the crowd.
He said it after the first foul called in the second half about three minutes in... cracked me up.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2016
Preseason All-Americans announced
Figured I would post this here on the Multi Topic thread since he was an All American last year........Former Albertus Magnus standout center Victor Ljuljdjuraj has signed a professional contract with Hoverla Ivano-Frankivsk of the Ukrainian Basketball Superleague. Congrats to Big Vic......He was a truly gifted D3 Player who was a tremendous defender and equally great scorer. I wish him all the best as he was a really nice young man too. Went out on the court every night and played the game right.......Rarely complained and always had the same calm and relaxed expression on his face yet underneath it all he was an ultra competitor.
Also from what I found Big Vic posted a double double in his first game with the team.
I have been hearing news that both Eian Davis and Tavon Sledge, 2 really gifted guards from last season teams are also looking to make the move to professional basketball as well. Will update accordingly if I hear any more news.
Is it Friday Yet!!!!!!
I thought I would post this, even though it's only the NABC, which doesn't count! ;D :) :P
http://nabc.com/NABC_Releases/2017/d3_all_america
Just noticed that this is the year for the second all-decade team from d3.hoops.com. ;D
Pat (or whoever), any target date for presenting that?
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Just noticed that this is the year for the second all-decade team from d3.hoops.com. ;D
Pat (or whoever), any target date for presenting that?
I know I have heard discussions but I don't know what Gordon and Dave and the crew are planning to do. I was around for most of that decade and hope to participate.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2017, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Just noticed that this is the year for the second all-decade team from d3.hoops.com. ;D
Pat (or whoever), any target date for presenting that?
I know I have heard discussions but I don't know what Gordon and Dave and the crew are planning to do. I was around for most of that decade and hope to participate.
I started looking through the candidates informally yesterday - we've got our hands full for sure. We've also got to figure out how to treat guys whose careers overlapped the two decades. Ben Strong and Andrew Olson are in that category.
Hoping Troy Ruths of Wash U will receive consideration... 2006-2008
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 27, 2017, 06:17:14 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 27, 2017, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 27, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Just noticed that this is the year for the second all-decade team from d3.hoops.com. ;D
Pat (or whoever), any target date for presenting that?
I know I have heard discussions but I don't know what Gordon and Dave and the crew are planning to do. I was around for most of that decade and hope to participate.
I started looking through the candidates informally yesterday - we've got our hands full for sure. We've also got to figure out how to treat guys whose careers overlapped the two decades. Ben Strong and Andrew Olson are in that category.
So are James Cooper and Kent Raymond.
Personally, I think that it should go by where your senior year falls. So if your freshman and sophomore year are in the first decade and the junior and senior years are in the second decade, you should qualify for the second go around for the All-Decade team. Not expecting you guys to use this theory just an idea I had and thought to share.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 27, 2017, 01:17:23 PM
Personally, I think that it should go by where your senior year falls. So if your freshman and sophomore year are in the first decade and the junior and senior years are in the second decade, you should qualify for the second go around for the All-Decade team. Not expecting you guys to use this theory just an idea I had and thought to share.
We had a policy for this 10 years ago, so hopefully we'd follow that again. We did not consider anyone who wasn't a senior by the spring of 2007.
Last post deleted...my mistake.
So are we talking 2008-2017?
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 27, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
So are we talking 2008-2017?
That's my understanding. The last team included a few players who graduated in 2007. Oddly enough, the 2007 POY was junior, Ben Strong, so I don't think he was eligible.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 28, 2017, 07:11:24 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 27, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
So are we talking 2008-2017?
That's my understanding. The last team included a few players who graduated in 2007. Oddly enough, the 2007 POY was junior, Ben Strong, so I don't think he was eligible.
Yes, Taryn Mellody of Scranton made the women's team and graduated in 2007.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 28, 2017, 07:11:24 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 27, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
So are we talking 2008-2017?
That's my understanding. The last team included a few players who graduated in 2007. Oddly enough, the 2007 POY was junior, Ben Strong, so I don't think he was eligible.
So his senior year had to be 2007? That's odd that 3 of his years are within the "decade" but he wasn't eligible. Anyway, he's a shoe-in for the next list!
We assumed we would be around for another decade. :)
Preseason All-Americans are up.
http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2018
Preseason All-America selections for 2018-19 are up: http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2019
Seventeen days earlier this year! Whoo-hoo!
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 24, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
Seventeen days earlier this year! Whoo-hoo!
The timing this year has me completely confused LOL
Still think I have a little time before getting
Hoopsville on the air. Nope. Nope. Nope.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 24, 2018, 12:26:18 PM
Preseason All-America selections for 2018-19 are up: http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2019
Ah yes, a tough snub for the UAA.
Missed Andrew Sanders (WashU) in the Preseason picks last year, then he proceeded to have a monster season and made 1st team All-American. All though Adam Gigax (Emory) was a Preseason pick last year he ultimately did not have the numbers & consistency of his junior year to make a case.
I'm sure Romin Williams (Emory), Jack Nolan (WashU), and Ryan Clamage (Rochester) will certainly make their cases as this season goes on. I'm hoping all three teams can find a way to make the tournament and at least one can make a deep run to Salem. Then maybe, just maybe, D3Hoops might show the UAA a little love.
It's amusing that you think that the UAA doesn't get any "love" -- whatever defines that. But we looked really closely to make sure we weren't ignoring a worthy UAA player and Nolan is a tough sell as a sophomore. You basically have to be the national rookie of the year to get a sniff at preseason All-American the very next year.
Quote from: uaaaficionado on October 24, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 24, 2018, 12:26:18 PM
Preseason All-America selections for 2018-19 are up: http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2019
Ah yes, a tough snub for the UAA.
Missed Andrew Sanders (WashU) in the Preseason picks last year, then he proceeded to have a monster season and made 1st team All-American. All though Adam Gigax (Emory) was a Preseason pick last year he ultimately did not have the numbers & consistency of his junior year to make a case.
I'm sure Romin Williams (Emory), Jack Nolan (WashU), and Ryan Clamage (Rochester) will certainly make their cases as this season goes on. I'm hoping all three teams can find a way to make the tournament and at least one can make a deep run to Salem. Then maybe, just maybe, D3Hoops might show the UAA a little love.
I would argue a lot of people missed Sander's contributions before he started his senior year. He had a terrific year. And BTW, there are a lot of players who "play themselves onto" the post-season All-America list. It happens every year. Sanders is not an exception, though rise to first-team was certainly a stellar move.
Couple of factors made things difficult for UAA "love" this season: there are a TON of pretty good guards in Division III currently and most of them are seniors. That makes for not a lot of space on the All-America team(s). Thus, forwards are not as plentiful to pick from and some do rise further up (for anyone trying to compare why a guard missed it compared to a forward). I'll add, I think we will see a number of forwards emerge this year ... but since they were behind a lot of great forwards who have graduated the last two years, it is hard to gauge that potential on limited data.
I think the choices from Emory and Rochester have the distinct disadvantage being in that list of guards where there just isn't any room. Hard to find space over the guards currently listed.
We considered Nolan, for example. As Pat indicated, it's hard for a rising sophomore to make this list. Once in a while I am sure it has happened and I know there was one I was considering hard this summer (until I realized he had transferred to a DII program). Nolan was seriously considered, but ultimately we felt he could be one of those guys that could play onto the team.
Also, if they make a deep run to Salem... they are either on the wrong team or ... they aren't All-America worthy outside of the ODAC teams. :)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 24, 2018, 03:50:21 PM
Also, if they make a deep run to Salem... they are either on the wrong team or ... they aren't All-America worthy outside of the ODAC teams. :)
Plenty of great points you make..
And you sure got me with this one - I'm sure they'll see you in Ft. Wayne 8-)
Quote from: uaaaficionado on October 24, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 24, 2018, 03:50:21 PM
Also, if they make a deep run to Salem... they are either on the wrong team or ... they aren't All-America worthy outside of the ODAC teams. :)
Plenty of great points you make..
And you sure got me with this one - I'm sure they'll see you in Ft. Wayne 8-)
I figured everyone would get a chuckle. It is taking me awhile to shift my mindset as well ... especially since Salem (Roanoke College) is hosting women. It is a little more confusing. LOL
This is nitpicking, but I would argue that Andrew Sanders should have been clearly on the radar of the voters based on his sophomore campaign and his leadership towards the 2016-2017 UAA title; a season in whichever everyone adored Rochester.
But yeah, those early tourney exits...those early tourney exits...
Top Players Left off the list...
Edvinas Ruckus - Skidmore
Brady Rose - IWU
Vinny Curta - Grinnell
Romin Williams - Emory
Jalen Adams - Olivet
Who else?
Jalen Adams graduated.
Not sure if Vinny Curta will get the respect tossing up big numbers for Grinnell.
I considered Rupkus.
I took Brady Rose in the pool.
I also took Romin Williams. Tough to make it as a sophomore. Plus, as Pat (?) said, lots of guards.
I would certainly think if Trevor Manuel at Olivet lives up to his hype he'll be in a position to be named All-American at years end. His PG Tracy Edmond is pretty darn good too.
Quote from: sac on October 24, 2018, 08:50:57 PM
I would certainly think if Trevor Manuel at Olivet lives up to his hype he'll be in a position to be named All-American at years end. His PG Tracy Edmond is pretty darn good too.
Yeah, I think Olivet could be a sleeper and give Hope a run for it's money in the MIAA. They have a killer nc schedule though. Of course, I named Manuel in the AA pool too.
I'm not really sure the defending co-champion of any league can be considered a "sleeper" ;)
Quote from: sac on October 24, 2018, 10:21:56 PM
I'm not really sure the defending co-champion of any league can be considered a "sleeper" ;)
It is when the other co-champ receives 76 votes in the preseason poll and the sleeper doesn't get any.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on October 24, 2018, 10:26:48 PM
Quote from: sac on October 24, 2018, 10:21:56 PM
I'm not really sure the defending co-champion of any league can be considered a "sleeper" ;)
It is when the other co-champ receives 76 votes in the preseason poll and the sleeper doesn't get any.
Good point! ;D
Current offensive numbers for the guards on the D3hoops.com preseason All-American team. I was surprised IWU's Brady Rose wasn't on the preseason team. It seems to me he belongs on the final All-American squad.
* Brady Rose (Illinois Wesleyan): 21.6 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 3.8 apg, .477 FG, .423 3-point, .877 FT
First team
* Kyle Roach (Whitworth): 17.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, .547 FG, .351 3-point, .770 FT
* Joey Hewitt (Whitman): 15.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.1 apg, .455 FG, .376 3-point, .860 FT
* Jake Ross (Springfield): 23.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 3.7 apg, .433 FG, .300 3-point, .872 FT
Second team
* Aston Francis (Wheaton): 31.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, .425 FG, .374 3-point, .875 FT
* Robert Duax (UW-Platteville): 17.9 ppg, 3.8 ppg, 1.8 apg, .468 FG, .378 3-point, .817 FT
* Cam Fails (Hanover): 22.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, .466 FG, .431 3-point, .806 FT
Third team
* Nolan Ebel (Augustana): 16.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.2 apg, .500 FG, .443 3-point, .851 FT
* Nate Schimonitz (Nebraska Wesleyan): 18.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, .540 FG, .432 3-point, .563 FT
* Bradley Jomard (MIT): 19.1 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, .560 FG, .365 3-point, .764 FT
Fourth team
* Marcos Echevarria (Nichols): 19.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.2 apg, .431 FG, .363 3-point, .806 FT
* Jason Beckman (Hope): 19.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 5.4 apg, .439 FG, .351 3-point, .890 FT
* Austin Butler (Whitman): 10.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, .611 FG, 3-point n/a, .544 FT (should be a Forward?)
Honorable mention
* Ben Boots (UW-Oshkosh): 15.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.3 apg, .440 FG, .398 3-point, .896 FT
* Nate West (LeTourneau): 23.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 4.4 apg, .429 FG, .379 3-point, .860 FT
* Anthony Mosley Jr (Illinois Tech): 16.7 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.5 rpg, .503 FG, .372 3-point, .743 FT
* Josh Ruggles (Loras): 17.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, .466 FG. .385 3-point, .922 FT
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2019
I don't think there is any drama about the national Player of the Year. Send the award to Aston Francis now.
Really was hoping you guys on the happy hour would go more in depth on POY for each region. Still really enjoyed the All American talk. I can understand why you don't talk as much about players on the hoopsville shows but I do enjoy it.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 03, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Really was hoping you guys on the happy hour would go more in depth on POY for each region. Still really enjoyed the All American talk. I can understand why you don't talk as much about players on the hoopsville shows but I do enjoy it.
I would like to continue that convo. For me that was a really hard one to do on the fly. There are so many great players - I want to do more prep (like above) and do that one the right way.
My as-yet-unresearched early estimation of POY candidates for each region:
Northeast: Ty Nichols, Keene
East: Kevin Dennis, Morrisville
Atlantic: Gabe Leifer, Yeshiva
Mid-Atlantic: Zac O'Dell, Swarthmore
South: Nate West, Letourneau
Great Lakes: Ryan Bruns, ONU
Central: Aston Francis, Wheaton
West: Booker Coplin, Augsburg
There are a lot of other contenders, of course, and maybe guys that don't come to mind right off the bat, but it's a list to start with to debate, if you so desire.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 03, 2019, 12:02:45 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 03, 2019, 11:45:30 AM
Really was hoping you guys on the happy hour would go more in depth on POY for each region. Still really enjoyed the All American talk. I can understand why you don't talk as much about players on the hoopsville shows but I do enjoy it.
I would like to continue that convo. For me that was a really hard one to do on the fly. There are so many great players - I want to do more prep (like above) and do that one the right way.
It's great to see where the preseason All-American predictions are at statistically this point in the season. I think there are definitely more than a few that will not be no longer be on that list when it comes time for All-American selections. Titan Q, I know you stated that you wanted to continue and expand upon the All-American conversation. I'm a very close follower of the CCC out in the Northeast that features teams such as Nichols, Gordon, Endicott, and Roger Williams University (RWU). I have two players besides Marcos Echevarria, who was predicted as a 4th team All-American, that I think should be considered in the All-American selection discussion.
1. Austin Coene (Sr., RWU): 26.0 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.9 spg, .520 FG, .338 3-point, .737 FT
Coene is now the all-time leading scorer at RWU and just surpassed the 2,000 career points milestone yesterday in RWUs loss against Gordon. I understand that he plays on a team that has not really received any regional or national attention this year. They currently sit at 11-10 (8-4) and are 4th in the CCC standings. They have a win against Endicott and close losses to Gordon and Nichols this year. What I'm trying to say is that they can play with and even beat these teams that have all received Top 25 votes in the 2018-2019 season. Besides that, Coene's stats are off the chart good and I'm not sure there are more than one or two players in all of Division III basketball who can match or surpass his stat line across the board this year.
2. Garrison Duvivier (Sr., Gordon): 17.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.3 spg, 2.3 bpg, .483 FG, .250 3-point, .649 FT
Duvivier is a big presence down low and is a double double machine on a Gordon team that has really turned some heads this year and has garnered some national level recognition. His team currently sits at 19-2 (11-1) and are tied for 1st in the CCC standings with Nichols. They have already defeated Nichols once earlier this year. He is really the most dominant big man in the CCC and he has an outstanding stat line on maybe the best team in the CCC that will likely received an NCAA Tournament selection this season.
I’ll probably be doing some research too and provide my input as well. I like your list Ryan. Some of those players are probably a surprise to those that follow just the top 25 teams but very deserving.
Like Bob said tho, congrats to Aston Francis on national POY. Well deserved.
B-ball, the CCC is a fun league. A lot of very deserving players statistically. I really like Coene last year in the fantasy leagues. I would be shocked if those guys didn’t make their way on to the all region teams at the very least.
I haven't really expanded my DIII Basketball knowledge beyond the Northeast region so I'm sure there are plenty of players who have stat lines that are All-American worthy. I'm not aware of how much those who pick the All-Americans take into account stats along with success of the team when making selections. For instance, we can compare stats of Aston Francis, Jake Ross, and Austin Coene, the former of the two who were both preseason All-American selections, 2nd and 1st team, respectively.
1. Aston Francis (Wheaton, CCIW, 16-6 (9-4), SOS, .557): 31.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, .425 FG, .374 3-point, .875 FT
2. Jake Ross (Springfield, NEWMAC, 7-14 (4-6), SOS, .587): 23.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 3.7 apg, 1.7 spg, .433 FG, .300 3-point, .872 FT
3. Austin Coene (RWU, CCC, 11-10 (8-4), SOS, .509): 26.0 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.9 spg, .520 FG, .338 3-point, .737 FT
Collectively, I've looked at the stats, team record, and the conference the respective team plays in. I would rank these 3 players for All-American consideration in this order: 1. Aston Francis, 2. Austin Coene, 3. Jake Ross. I think Francis and Coene are very close when you assess just statistics, with Francis scoring 5.6 ppg more and a 14% better FT shooter, while Coene has a 1.3 rpg, 1.1 apg, 1 spg, and almost 10% higher FG percentage advantage; I'd almost have to give Coene the edge after stating this. However, Francis clearly plays in a more elite conference in the CCIW and his team has a much better overall record. To me, Ross is a clear 3rd choice out of the players. Statistically, he is below Francis and Coene in almost every category. Additionally, his team has struggled mightily after making a run to the Final 4 in the NCAA Tournament last year. I understand he likely plays in the best conference out of the 3 players but you cannot look past the overall 7-14 record. Of note, RWU and Springfield played in a preseason scrimmage this year, and I guess Coene and Ross were going at each other throughout the entire game. Would have loved to see that game in person. Overall, I'm guessing that Francis will be a 1st Team All-American Selection, if not the POY. Then, Coene and Ross will likely more be hovering around the 3rd Team-Honorable Mention consideration, if that.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 03, 2019, 04:00:06 PM
I'm not aware of how much those who pick the All-Americans take into account stats along with success of the team when making selections.
It's a good question...and I am not sure how Pat & Co. do it (whether they factor in team results or not).
I'd tend to think that for an All-American team you'd just look at individual performance. But seems the preseason All-American team was influenced, to some degree, by team stuff. So, not sure really.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 03, 2019, 04:00:06 PMTo me, Ross is a clear 3rd choice out of the players. Statistically, he is below Francis and Coene in almost every category. Additionally, his team has struggled mightily after making a run to the Final 4 in the NCAA Tournament last year. I understand he likely plays in the best conference out of the 3 players but you cannot look past the overall 7-14 record.
In terms of overall quality, the NEWMAC is not a better conference than the CCIW.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 03, 2019, 04:03:57 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 03, 2019, 04:00:06 PM
I'm not aware of how much those who pick the All-Americans take into account stats along with success of the team when making selections.
It's a good question...and I am not sure how Pat & Co. do it (whether they factor in team results or not).
I'd tend to think that for an All-American team you'd just look at individual performance. But seems the preseason All-American team was influenced, to some degree, by team stuff. So, not sure really.
Well in order to be eligible for All-American you must be an All-Region player (I think). Each region has their own voters so some regions could be different but it really looks like historically being on a good team really helps your cause. Even more so, I think the voters could be biased towards Conference awards (MVP specifically) in both region and all american voting. "Duax was the MVP in the WIAC, one of the best conferences in the central, he should definitely be a first teamer" (this is nothing against Duax, but feehan should have been a first teamer last year imo). It seems to be a give and take, balancing in some great statistical players on average teams with good statistical players on great to elite teams.
Assuming that Springfield doesn't make a run at the end of the year here, it will be interesting to see what voters do with him. He is the epitome of this player talent and stats vs team results debate, especially given he was a first teamer last year carrying the Pride to the Final Four.
EDIT: Also, to be 100% transparent, that was me spitballing my personal takes... I know nothing more than most of you and in fact probably less than most of you. Just putting forth what I seem to gather from looking at these awards for 5-6 years now and past couple more in depth.
Coene and Duvivier made the Northeast 3rd and 4th All-Region teams, respectively, in the 2017-2018 season. I would expect them both to be on 1st or 2nd team this season, although I understand that the region is loaded with talent. That, and the fact that Marcos Echevarria of the CCC is also in the mix of things. I'd personally be surprised to see three CCC players make the 1st and 2nd All-Region teams this year. I've already addressed that these three are the top contenders for CCC POY in my rather long post in the CCC thread. But yes, I'd have to agree that there is likely some give and take regarding statistics and team success.
It will be very interesting to see where Jake Ross ends up. A few D3Boards posters picked him as National POY in the preseason All-American thread. As others have already discussed, I think that Aston Francis of Wheaton (Ill.) will win National POY hands down. However, if Ross makes an All-American team again then I really think that Coene of RWU, who has better statistics and is on a team with a slightly better record in a less competitive conference, must be taken into consideration for an All-American selection.
Rookie of the year
Ryan Turell - Yeshiva
Anders Nelson - St. Thomas
Anyone else?
Seems like a two-horse race, Greek Tragedy, with Nelson being the big favorite.
On the east coast, Chris Childs at St. Joseph Ct. and Logan Bailey at Scranton are two other impressive rookies, but while both have been scorching hot in recent weeks, neither has done enough to leap into the conversation I'd say.
Quote from: nescac1 on February 08, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
Seems like a two-horse race, Greek Tragedy, with Nelson being the big favorite.
On the east coast, Chris Childs at St. Joseph Ct. and Logan Bailey at Scranton are two other impressive rookies, but while both have been scorching hot in recent weeks, neither has done enough to leap into the conversation I'd say.
If there's 1 thing that Logan can do, it's leap. Look for him to be a big factor in the season's final weeks. I agree that he should be part of the conversation.
There is a nationwide rookie of the year?
Just a couple names off the top of my head based on fantasy leagues, possible AAs.
Coplin - Augsburg
Carius - Monmouth
Manuel - Olivet
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 08, 2019, 12:56:42 PM
Rookie of the year
Ryan Turell - Yeshiva
Anders Nelson - St. Thomas
Anyone else?
I started the year with a few other names on the list, but those are the only ones left, in my mind - and probably just the second, right now. I think it's Anders' to lose at this point. Turrell is super talented and if Yeshiva goes on a run, he could change things, but Nelson is leading a Top 5 team in a bunch of categories while running the point as a freshman. It's a pretty impressive resume thus far.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 09, 2019, 09:37:15 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 08, 2019, 12:56:42 PM
Rookie of the year
Ryan Turell - Yeshiva
Anders Nelson - St. Thomas
Anyone else?
I started the year with a few other names on the list, but those are the only ones left, in my mind - and probably just the second, right now. I think it's Anders' to lose at this point. Turrell is super talented and if Yeshiva goes on a run, he could change things, but Nelson is leading a Top 5 team in a bunch of categories while running the point as a freshman. It's a pretty impressive resume thus far.
If Ryan is able to vote for someone going up against one of his Macs, I think the race is over! ;D ;)
Anders Nelson is averaging 15.7pts on very efficient shooting, 48/39.6/85 (just slightly under the 50/40/90 standard elite shooters strive to achieve). All of that to go along with 4.8reb, 4.8ast (2:1 ast:to) and nearly 2 steals a game.
Ryan Turrell is averaging 20.2pts on very efficient shooting, 55/43/79.7. All of that to go with 5reb, 3.3ast, 1 steal and half a block per game.
Both are extremely impressive freshman who are playing PG for their teams and are deserving of the reward. Turrell is averaging more points but Anders is on a better team. Other than that most of their resumes are very similar.
Has there ever been talks about an "all-freshman team" instead of just nominating one? Because it is too bad one of these two will not be nominated (unless you do co-FOY). It wouldn't necessarily need to fill out positions, just choose the 5 most impressive freshman.
Some years it's tough to get to five - at least on a similar level.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 03, 2019, 10:24:04 AM
I don't think there is any drama about the national Player of the Year. Send the award to Aston Francis now.
What Francis has done is very impressive, in terms of raw scoring numbers, and I cannot argue with him receiving the PotY award. However, he isn't a phenomenally efficient shooter, as compared to some others who have recently won the award.
His effective field goal percentage (EFG%) is around 54% (618 points on 572 FGA = 1.08 pts/shot = 54% eFG%), which is in line with Monroe's 53% at Cabrini last year, and Flannery's 53% the year prior. However, Aaron Toomey was at over 59% in 2012-13, Aaron Walton-Moss 61% in his junior season at Cabrini (2013-14), and Guilford's Tyler Sanborn shot a crazy 64% in 2009-10.
His team is probably better off with him taking a questionable shot than someone else taking an open one.
This is why stats are misleading sometimes, and I say that as a guy that deals with data for a living. Sometimes you gotta use context to understand what the data is really telling you.
I've seen the probably consensus second best player in the country, and having seen the video of Francis against N Central, I have no problem believing he's the best. Put him on Augustana where he's not the sole focus of the defense, and we could probably just forget about the national tournament this year.
I'm wondering if the same applies to Turell, who I haven't seen. Anders has been great, but has had some struggles lately. 3 of his 6 20+ point games were in November. Really good player, but not sure I'd take him over a 6-9 or whatever guy that can legit play guard, and Nelson certainly gets a lot of help. If he shows well in the NCAAs, I think I might think Turell is the best. Hard to know until then though bc of their schedule.
Saint Paulite, just to clarify you are comparing Aston Francis to two players that were being discussed as potential Rookie of the Year not Player of the Year. Could Nelson or Turrell be considered as POY candidates in a few years? Most definitely if they continue to grow as players. However, I think we are all trying to get a sense of who could contend with Francis for POY this year. I'm not sure if there is anyone that comes to mind at the moment. I've previously mentioned two other names in this thread just as a comparison and I think it was pretty clear Francis should come out on top.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 12, 2019, 09:05:10 PM
Saint Paulite, just to clarify you are comparing Aston Francis to two players that were being discussed as potential Rookie of the Year not Player of the Year. Could Nelson or Turrell be considered as POY candidates in a few years? Most definitely if they continue to grow as players. However, I think we are all trying to get a sense of who could contend with Francis for POY this year. I'm not sure if there is anyone that comes to mind at the moment. I've previously mentioned two other names in this thread just as a comparison and I think it was pretty clear Francis should come out on top.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/4b/15/674b1568ff5ccabda9daa43901eb38d7.jpg)
Let me be clear:
I was working from fantastic50's efficiency numbers and
1. that Francis may be inefficient because it's best for his team for him to aggressively hunt shots
2. Turell vs. Nelson might be a similar story wrt what good numbers on a very good team means vs. great numbers on a not as good team to...well, whoever you think has that argument on Francis (Schimonitz? Butler? Ebel? whoever)
We see in the Chicago and N Central (1st) boxes what happens for Wheaton when Francis doesn't get shots up: not very much. Scored 60 and 59.
They've won a lot more games from him shooting a lot than they've lost because of him shooting a lot.
Not sure why that deserves -1 karma when I was politely informing you of your mistake. We're all human.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 12, 2019, 10:55:50 PM
Not sure why that deserves -1 karma when I was politely informing you of your mistake. We're all human.
(https://allstatsasalad.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/disappointed-kermit.jpeg?w=553)
1. I didn't give you -k
2. I didn't make a mistake.
3. Read my edit.
4. ???
5. Profit!
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
This is why stats are misleading sometimes, and I say that as a guy that deals with data for a living. Sometimes you gotta use context to understand what the data is really telling you.
I am regrettably responding to this... but I find it funny you said this in response to fantastic50, who is a mathematics prof at Wooster College.
Also, since I am here I might as well ask...
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
I've seen the probably consensus second best player in the country, and having seen the video of Francis against N Central, I have no problem believing he's the best. Put him on Augustana where he's not the sole focus of the defense, and we could probably just forget about the national tournament this year.
Who are you referencing here?
Your edit wasn't available until two minutes ago. So I had nothing to go off of. Wouldn't have accused you of the -k if you didn't initially respond with just a picture. Your first post made it seem like you were comparing the 3 players to me. Therefore, in my eyes you made a mistake and I was respectfully sharing my opinion on the matter. No hard feelings.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 12, 2019, 11:08:04 PM
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
This is why stats are misleading sometimes, and I say that as a guy that deals with data for a living. Sometimes you gotta use context to understand what the data is really telling you.
I am regrettably responding to this... but I find it funny you said this in response to fantastic50, who is a mathematics prof at Wooster College.
Also, since I am here I might as well ask...
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
I've seen the probably consensus second best player in the country, and having seen the video of Francis against N Central, I have no problem believing he's the best. Put him on Augustana where he's not the sole focus of the defense, and we could probably just forget about the national tournament this year.
Who are you referencing here?
Coplin. Maybe consensus wasn't the perfect word, but he has to be the "runner-up favorite".
I respect Drew's work greatly. Let me be clear here, I think he provides more value for me personally than anyone that posts here.
I'm just saying sometimes the numbers leave part of the story out, or don't give you a counterfactual, or any number of other ways that numbers still require human interpretation and domain knowledge to fully explain a situation.
I'm not saying he doesn't know that, but it wasn't really present in that rundown of numbers, and that context is critical in understanding Francis and his impact on Wheaton, a team that it's hard to even conceptualize without him.
It's like the people that said Kobe shot too much in the post-Shaq years. What, you want the other guys shooting more, and Kobe shooting less? Doesn't seem like a great plan...
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 12, 2019, 11:14:59 PM
Your edit wasn't available until two minutes ago. So I had nothing to go off of. Wouldn't have accused you of the -k if you didn't initially respond with just a picture. Your first post made it seem like you were comparing the 3 players to me. Therefore, in my eyes you made a mistake and I was respectfully sharing my opinion on the matter. No hard feelings.
Fair enough.
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 11:25:46 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 12, 2019, 11:08:04 PM
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
This is why stats are misleading sometimes, and I say that as a guy that deals with data for a living. Sometimes you gotta use context to understand what the data is really telling you.
I am regrettably responding to this... but I find it funny you said this in response to fantastic50, who is a mathematics prof at Wooster College.
Also, since I am here I might as well ask...
Quote from: SaintPaulite on February 12, 2019, 03:55:13 PM
I've seen the probably consensus second best player in the country, and having seen the video of Francis against N Central, I have no problem believing he's the best. Put him on Augustana where he's not the sole focus of the defense, and we could probably just forget about the national tournament this year.
Who are you referencing here?
Coplin. Maybe consensus wasn't the perfect word, but he has to be the "runner-up favorite".
I respect Drew's work greatly. I'm just saying sometimes the numbers leave part of the story out, or don't give you a counterfactual, or any number of other ways that numbers still require human interpretation and domain knowledge to fully explain a situation.
I'm not saying he doesn't know that, but it wasn't really present in that rundown of numbers, and that context is critical in understanding Francis and his impact on Wheaton, a team that it's hard to even conceptualize without him.
It's like the people that said Kobe shot too much in the post-Shaq years. What, you want the other guys shooting more, and Kobe shooting less? Doesn't seem like a great plan...
Wow, I just looked up Coplin's stats. They are off the chart good and he plays on a Top 50 team in a good conference. His stats are eerily similar to Austin Coene of RWU, actually almost the exact same, except Coplin shoots better from 3 and the FT line. Coene also plays on a "not so good" team in the CCC, which strength wise is definitely an inferior conference to the MIAC. However, both teams are likely to finish 3rd in their conference, have about the same SOS at .53, yet Augsburg has a much better record. I also don't really have any knowledge of D3 basketball out in the Midwest. But, it does look like both conferences will have 2 bids to the NCAA tournament. Besides Coene and Coplin, I don't think anyone else really has a case against Francis if we are strictly basing comparison on statistics.
So does St. Thomas's Nelson have the edge in ROTY honors since his team made the tournament and Turell's Yeshiva didn't?
I would think Ty Nichols out of Keene State would be considered for 1st team AA. Saw him play a few times and he's easily the best scorer in new england. His overall numbers are very good and he's third nationally in scoring at 27.3 ppg.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
So does St. Thomas's Nelson have the edge in ROTY honors since his team made the tournament and Turell's Yeshiva didn't?
I mean, the awards aren't decided until the final four, so playing additional games can either help or hurt one's candidacy, depending on how they play, right? I don't think history indicates that making the tournament is a requirement - see last year's national player of the year.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 26, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 26, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
So does St. Thomas's Nelson have the edge in ROTY honors since his team made the tournament and Turell's Yeshiva didn't?
I mean, the awards aren't decided until the final four, so playing additional games can either help or hurt one's candidacy, depending on how they play, right? I don't think history indicates that making the tournament is a requirement - see last year's national player of the year.
Of course not. But if it's a close race and Player A leads you to a tourney birth and Player B doesn't, it might give player A an edge. That's all.
Yes, but if Player A stinks it up in the tourney, he's hurting his cause by doing so on the biggest stage possible.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 26, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Yes, but if Player A stinks it up in the tourney, he's hurting his cause by doing so on the biggest stage possible.
I understand that. If he stinks it up, the team may lose in the 1st round. If it's
that close, I'm still taking the guy who got us into the tourney and had one bad game on the big stage over the guy who didn't get us to the big stage at all.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 26, 2019, 03:24:09 PM
Yes, but if Player A stinks it up in the tourney, he's hurting his cause by doing so on the biggest stage possible.
And we've certainly seen that happen.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan20 on February 26, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
I would think Ty Nichols out of Keene State would be considered for 1st team AA. Saw him play a few times and he's easily the best scorer in new england. His overall numbers are very good and he's third nationally in scoring at 27.3 ppg.
He definitely is on the short list of players, in my eyes, who could be 1st team AA.
Quote from: NEsoccerfan20 on February 26, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
I would think Ty Nichols out of Keene State would be considered for 1st team AA. Saw him play a few times and he's easily the best scorer in new england. His overall numbers are very good and he's third nationally in scoring at 27.3 ppg.
I am almost certain Ty Nichols will win Northeast Regional Player of the Year and he will definitely at minimum be on the 1st Team All-Northeast Region Team. I think 1st Team All-American isn't unreasonable, especially if Keene State can make a run in the NCAA Tournament. My best guess would be that he ends up as 2nd Team All-American, which is a huge accomplishment in itself. I'm a big follower of D3 basketball in the northeast and my guess for 1st Team All-Northeast Region players and All-American likelihood are as follows:
1. Ty Nichols, Sr. (Keene State), All-NE POY, 1st or 2nd Team All-American
2. Austin Coene, Sr. (RWU), 2nd or 3rd Team All-American
3. Kena Gilmour, Jr. (Hamilton), 3rd or 4th Team All-American
4. Bradley Jomard, Sr. (MIT), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
5. Sean Bryan, Jr. (Salem State), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
I would be very surprised if the first three players on the list were not selected to 1st Team All-Northeast Region. Other players I'd consider in place of Jomard and Bryan would be Jake Ross, Jr. (Springfield), Marcos Echevarria, Sr. (Nichols), Brian Hogan-Gary, Jr. (Johnson and Wales) and Grant Robinson, So. (Amherst). Echevarria likely has the most to gain from the NCAA tournament after his prolific career at Nichols. I'd love to hear other perspectives, although I know most are focused on the beginning of the NCAA tournament and not post-season honors.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 26, 2019, 07:26:00 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan20 on February 26, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
I would think Ty Nichols out of Keene State would be considered for 1st team AA. Saw him play a few times and he's easily the best scorer in new england. His overall numbers are very good and he's third nationally in scoring at 27.3 ppg.
I am almost certain Ty Nichols will win Northeast Regional Player of the Year and he will definitely at minimum be on the 1st Team All-Northeast Region Team. I think 1st Team All-American isn't unreasonable, especially if Keene State can make a run in the NCAA Tournament. My best guess would be that he ends up as 2nd Team All-American, which is a huge accomplishment in itself. I'm a big follower of D3 basketball in the northeast and my guess for 1st Team All-Northeast Region players and All-American likelihood are as follows:
1. Ty Nichols, Sr. (Keene State), All-NE POY, 1st or 2nd Team All-American
2. Austin Coene, Sr. (RWU), 2nd or 3rd Team All-American
3. Kena Gilmour, Jr. (Hamilton), 3rd or 4th Team All-American
4. Bradley Jomard, Sr. (MIT), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
5. Sean Bryan, Jr. (Salem State), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
I would be very surprised if the first three players on the list were not selected to 1st Team All-Northeast Region. Other players I'd consider in place of Jomard and Bryan would be Jake Ross, Jr. (Springfield), Marcos Echevarria, Sr. (Nichols), Brian Hogan-Gary, Jr. (Johnson and Wales) and Grant Robinson, So. (Amherst). Echevarria likely has the most to gain from the NCAA tournament after his prolific career at Nichols. I'd love to hear other perspectives, although I know most are focused on the beginning of the NCAA tournament and not post-season honors.
I think Echevarria would sneak onto the first team in front of the 4th and 5th listed, as you said it is close for those last couple spots. Another couple of players I would mention from the NE would be the duos from Emerson (Jack O'Connor and Geoffrey Gray) and Gordon (Eric Demers and Garrison Duvivier).
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 26, 2019, 07:31:24 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on February 26, 2019, 07:26:00 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan20 on February 26, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
I would think Ty Nichols out of Keene State would be considered for 1st team AA. Saw him play a few times and he's easily the best scorer in new england. His overall numbers are very good and he's third nationally in scoring at 27.3 ppg.
I am almost certain Ty Nichols will win Northeast Regional Player of the Year and he will definitely at minimum be on the 1st Team All-Northeast Region Team. I think 1st Team All-American isn't unreasonable, especially if Keene State can make a run in the NCAA Tournament. My best guess would be that he ends up as 2nd Team All-American, which is a huge accomplishment in itself. I'm a big follower of D3 basketball in the northeast and my guess for 1st Team All-Northeast Region players and All-American likelihood are as follows:
1. Ty Nichols, Sr. (Keene State), All-NE POY, 1st or 2nd Team All-American
2. Austin Coene, Sr. (RWU), 2nd or 3rd Team All-American
3. Kena Gilmour, Jr. (Hamilton), 3rd or 4th Team All-American
4. Bradley Jomard, Sr. (MIT), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
5. Sean Bryan, Jr. (Salem State), Honorable Mention All-American or not selected
I would be very surprised if the first three players on the list were not selected to 1st Team All-Northeast Region. Other players I'd consider in place of Jomard and Bryan would be Jake Ross, Jr. (Springfield), Marcos Echevarria, Sr. (Nichols), Brian Hogan-Gary, Jr. (Johnson and Wales) and Grant Robinson, So. (Amherst). Echevarria likely has the most to gain from the NCAA tournament after his prolific career at Nichols. I'd love to hear other perspectives, although I know most are focused on the beginning of the NCAA tournament and not post-season honors.
I think Echevarria would sneak onto the first team in front of the 4th and 5th listed, as you said it is close for those last couple spots. Another couple of players I would mention from the NE would be the duos from Emerson (Jack O'Connor and Geoffrey Gray) and Gordon (Eric Demers and Garrison Duvivier).
I agree that all those players will be considered for All-Northeast Regional Teams. The tough thing is that Coene and Jobard won POY for the CCC and NEWMAC, respectively. If you put Echevarria on 1st Team there is no way another CCC player makes it. Duvivier is definitely not going to make it as he didn't even make 1st Team All-CCC, although he should have. I bet the two Emerson players end up on 2nd-4th teams All-Northeast.
I'm guessing if someone is the regional player of the year, he's going to be on the 1st team of that region.
I agree with that ;D To clarify, I was saying that Ty Nichols will minimum be 1st Team All-Northeast Region and is definitely the front runner for NE POY. Maybe the way I stated it in my previous post was confusing.
My personal best guess at the All-West Region teams. Hopefully you guys don't think I went too heavy on the MIAC in the solo awards, but I think Coplin and Anders and are pretty easy choices at this point. I chose Tauer over Wellman (NWU), Bridgeland (Whitman) and McKenzie (SJU) because they were not predicted to do as well as they did this year. If you went with any of the other coaches, or even Katsiaficas (P-P) I think you have a valid argument.
Player of the Year Booker Coplin Augsburg
Coach of the Year John Tauer St. Thomas
Freshman of the Year Anders Nelson St. Thomas
FIRST TEAM
PLAYER TEAM YEAR
G Austin Butler Whitman Sr
G Ryan Garver Nebraska Wesleyan Sr
G Ryan DiCanio Loras Sr
F Daniel Rosenbaum Pomona Pitzer Sr
F Booker Coplin Augsburg Jr
SECOND TEAM
PLAYER TEAM YEAR
G Kyle Roach Whitworth Sr
G Jaran Sabus Wartburg Sr
G Josh Ruggles Loras Sr
F Tim Wendell Crown Jr
F Cooper Cook Nebraska Wesleyan Sr
THIRD TEAM
PLAYER TEAM YEAR
G David Stokman St. John's Sr
G Joey Hewitt Whitman Sr
G Ben College Whitworth Jr
F Zach Baines Occidental Sr
F Austin DeWitz Occidental Sr
Honorable mention would include Nate Schimonitz from NWU, Micah Elan from P-P and probably one/both of the Tommie duo of Anders Nelson and Connor Bair. Could not quite fit these guys into the top 3 teams
From NESCAC, the four all-region candidates are Kena Gilmour (a lock), Grant Robinson, Bobby Casey and Austin Hutcherson. Maybe Jack Farrell too with a big tourney. I think Hutcherson is a future all-American, his talent is immense, but not this year. Gilmour should crack one of the five AA teams and could move up to as high as second team with a big tourney. Casey or Robinson both need big tourneys to earn consideration. Robinson is another guy who is a lock to be an all-American at some point in his career if he stays healthy.
Thanks for the input nescac1! You definitely have a better idea of the NESCAC talent than I do. Have the all conference selections been made? I wanted to put Robinson in my projected 1st Team All-NE Region, but there are 3 players averaging 25 ppg in the NE this year that I think will take those 1st Team All-NE spots. Robinson should make 2nd Team and is definitely a future All-American. Many of the NESCAC players will get to make their case in the NCAA tourney which is an advantage. I could see them sneaking a second player onto the 1st Team, but I'm leaning more towards the CCC getting two players. Regardless, the Northeast is a very talented region!
Nelson's St. Thomas is in the Sweet 16, did he pass Turell for ROTY now?
Quick question about the fan voting for the All-Star game. Are the players that will be listed at 12 PM those who are no longer being considered by the committee selecting the all-stars or just the top player from each region? More simply put, are the 6 players not selected by the fans out of all-star contention?
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 05, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Quick question about the fan voting for the All-Star game. Are the players that will be listed at 12 PM those who are no longer being considered by the committee selecting the all-stars or just the top player from each region? More simply put, are the 6 players not selected by the fans out of all-star contention?
So, the NABC picks the rosters. What they typically do is choose two players (seniors) from each region (remember, their coach has to be an NABC members, so occasionally an obvious choice isn't eligible). Then, they'll select a third player from each region and those names go into the fan vote.
I have zero inside information on those names. One of my favorite things to do this time of year is to try and guess which two seniors are ahead of the guys on the ballot. Remember, sometimes a player is selected and declines due to schedule conflicts or other reasons, so the "third" name on the ballot could be fourth or fifth.
I like guessing games.
For the Northeast region, I think Ty Nichols was selected by the committee. I honestly can't think of another player that would have been picked over Austin Coene of RWU that's no longer in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 05, 2019, 12:09:26 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 05, 2019, 11:48:19 AM
Quick question about the fan voting for the All-Star game. Are the players that will be listed at 12 PM those who are no longer being considered by the committee selecting the all-stars or just the top player from each region? More simply put, are the 6 players not selected by the fans out of all-star contention?
So, the NABC picks the rosters. What they typically do is choose two players (seniors) from each region (remember, their coach has to be an NABC members, so occasionally an obvious choice isn't eligible). Then, they'll select a third player from each region and those names go into the fan vote.
I have zero inside information on those names. One of my favorite things to do this time of year is to try and guess which two seniors are ahead of the guys on the ballot. Remember, sometimes a player is selected and declines due to schedule conflicts or other reasons, so the "third" name on the ballot could be fourth or fifth.
I like guessing games.
Here are my guesses:
Northeast - Ty Nichols, Bradley Jomard
East - Ryan Clamage, Jonathan Patron
Atlantic - Sam Toney, Jason Kenny
Mid-Atlantic - Cam Wiley, Jason Bady (Alt: Marcus Carter, Nate Aldrich)
South - Austin Wrighten, Joe Neal (Alt: Josh Freund)
Great Lakes - Austin Schreck, Cam Fails
Central - Astin Francis, Ben Boots (Alt: Nolan Ebel, Brady Rose, probably another five names could go here)
West - Austin Butler, David Stockman (Alt: Ryan DiCanio, Kyle Roach, Josh Ruggles)
I picked some who are still playing, because sometimes they add in guys who lose the second weekend, sometimes they don't.
I really hope everyone can take a look at the 8 players listed for the fan voting for the NABC All-Star Game and see how clearly the stats show that Austin Coene should be selected as an all-star. If Jomard from MIT does indeed get the nod from the Northeast Region, I think the committee that selected the players did a miserable job.
Not saying I agree/disagree with the potential selection, but Jomard was an integral part of a MIT program that was a mainstay in the top 25 and had multiple NCAA tourney appearances during his 4 years. That counts for something as well, even though his stats may not match those of Coene.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 05, 2019, 07:06:05 AM
Nelson's St. Thomas is in the Sweet 16, did he pass Turell for ROTY now?
If he wasn't already a lock for the award already, I would assume he has to be now.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 05, 2019, 06:07:32 PM
Not saying I agree/disagree with the potential selection, but Jomard was an integral part of a MIT program that was a mainstay in the top 25 and had multiple NCAA tourney appearances during his 4 years. That counts for something as well, even though his stats may not match those of Coene.
I'm assuming they select based on this season's performance. Jomard averaged 17.8 and 4.8 and Coene averaged 26 and 9.5. For an all-star game, I think there is a pretty clear cut winner. Again, I'm obviously biased being an RWU fan but if you look at Coene's stats compared to the 7 other players nominated for fan voting it's almost laughable. Coene is in 3rd right now in voting and the two above him aren't within 10 ppg and 5 rpg of him. If the voting stays this way, I would like to think most could agree that Coene would be robbed of an all-star selection. Maybe the committee would consider him for an at-large selection at that point, but it seems as though those two spots will be reserved for two players on teams that get bounced from the second weeekend of the tournament.
The All-Star game is for outgoing seniors only, I believe. So, it may be awarded for their entire collegiate career. I think it can be both about stats and accomplishments.
I made a mistake - for some reason presuming Ryan Garver was a junior. He's a shoe-in for the West region over anyone else in the ARC.
Jomard won POY for the NEWMAC, generally considered the second best conference in the NE region. He's been an AA before. He's super talented. They really don't look at stats at all for these things. It's about how conferences recognize guys and, since its the coach's association, how coaches view the talents of these players. Coene certainly lags behind. Winning the POY over Echevarria is a big deal, but I don't think he'd be ahead of Jomard. Of course, Jomard might be interviewing with NASA that week, or something, and just not be able to go. We never really get the backstory for the selections. Coene has always been a volume scorer, but in terms of overall talent, he's been largely a non-factor until this year. I don't see any way he'd be ahead of Jomard; this is typically not a one-year recognition.
All-Star teams were just released. Looks like you were right with Jomard and Nichols getting the two nods for selections from the Northeast. Coene gets voted in by the fans and Echevarria gets the at-large nomination after losing in the Elite 8 to Swarthmore. Was really looking forward to seeing Nichols play in the Final 4, but it's great to see that the Northeast got the most all-star nominations for the game. Now that a majority of the NCAA Tournament has been completed, I'd probably want to revise my NE POY nomination and think it will now likely go to Echevarria, who played through two injuries in the tournament and was just a possession away from getting his team to the Final 4. I'm guessing we'll get confirmation of this in just a few hours with the All-Region Teams coming out today?
I was also curious about All-Region teams, I feel like they usually have come out by now.
I really love the All-Star game, excited for that! Would be fun to see a dunk contest, if not solely to see what Austin Butler could do!
All-Star Team Link (https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2019/03/nabc-all-star-rosters)
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
I am not going this year, but I have gone in the past. As much as I would like it to be a sell out crowd, you will for sure be able to get general admission tix, especially if you are there early enough for warmups of the All-Star game.
If I remember correctly, which isn't a sure thing, the All-Star game isn't that well attended. But, it has been as early as 11:30ish or so when the championship game was at 3. Or 12:30 and 4, something like that. Ok, disregard my post...unless I'm right.
We just released our All-Region Award winners, which is the first step in the All-American process.
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2018-19/index
Congrats to all the winners!
Lol at Jake Ross making 1st Team over Coene. That's an absolute joke.
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It is Semi-State weekend in Hoosier land for the high school boys. But no Ft. Wayne teams are alive.
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2019
Edvinas Rupkus, Skidmore from the East and Dimitrius Underwood, Texas-Dallas from the South were both named Regional Player of Year, yet neither made the All-American list. That's definitely not a complaint, just an observation.
1st team - 2 Central, 2 West, 1 Northeast
2nd team - 2 Central, 1 West, 1 Northeast, 1 Great Lakes
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It was pointed out by sac on the MIAA board that Final Four tix were $15 apiece, which is a rather steep price to pay for a casual fan who doesn't have a strong rooting interest in any of the four teams. That may have helped to keep the attendance down to 2,000 or so, when I think that a somewhat lower ticket price might've brought in a much better house.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It was pointed out by sac on the MIAA board that Final Four tix were $15 apiece, which is a rather steep price to pay for a casual fan who doesn't have a strong rooting interest in any of the four teams. That may have helped to keep the attendance down to 2,000 or so, when I think that a somewhat lower ticket price might've brought in a much better house.
I don't think the temperatures here this weekend helped locals' desire to come out either.
I think the whole weekend was $26, 2 semi-finals, the All-Star game and the championship game. It's the Final Four! I don't think those prices were much different than Salem, but as you pointed out, the weather probably didn't help.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It was pointed out by sac on the MIAA board that Final Four tix were $15 apiece, which is a rather steep price to pay for a casual fan who doesn't have a strong rooting interest in any of the four teams. That may have helped to keep the attendance down to 2,000 or so, when I think that a somewhat lower ticket price might've brought in a much better house.
Not just the $15, it was the $8 service fee per ticket to do it online which is nearly everyone's first action these days. First words out of my mouth when I saw that was "screw that". Whether that's standard or not its a deterrent when you have no dog in the fight and you're looking at $23 to make sure you get a seat. Add in a parking fee and then the usual overpriced grub inside the arena it gets to be an expensive day for an average fan.
Most D3 games are around 7 or 8 bucks if they even take admission at all. Now you're asking people to pay twice or even 3 times as much.
It needs a rethink or we're all going to have to be happy with lackluster crowds.
Quote from: sac on March 17, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It was pointed out by sac on the MIAA board that Final Four tix were $15 apiece, which is a rather steep price to pay for a casual fan who doesn't have a strong rooting interest in any of the four teams. That may have helped to keep the attendance down to 2,000 or so, when I think that a somewhat lower ticket price might've brought in a much better house.
Not just the $15, it was the $8 service fee per ticket to do it online which is nearly everyone's first action these days. First words out of my mouth when I saw that was "screw that". Whether that's standard or not its a deterrent when you have no dog in the fight and you're looking at $23 to make sure you get a seat. Add in a parking fee and then the usual overpriced grub inside the arena it gets to be an expensive day for an average fan.
Most D3 games are around 7 or 8 bucks if they even take admission at all. Now you're asking people to pay twice or even 3 times as much.
It needs a rethink or we're all going to have to be happy with lackluster crowds.
This is the first year they did pre-sales - and they reported 2700 of them over the weekend. With something like 3600 total sold, I'd say that's a pretty significant percentage. That does include the team allotments, which have always been available ahead of time. I'm not sure what you want to do with that data, but there it is.
If I was a casual fan, I'd just walk up and get a ticket, saving me all those ridiculous online fees. The boxscore says 1710, which is disappointing, but not entirely surprising. I didn't expect a flood of CNU fans to make the trip, but I would've thought Oshkosh would've had a good showing Saturday, being a "short" trip. However, Oshkosh doesn't draw well at home, let alone, 5 1/2 hours away. Wisconsin's high school state tournament may have also played into the Oshkosh support as well.
The $6 parking fee is a turn off, but the overpriced food is expected. It's a huge facility, I've heard, and somehow to there was a Monster Truck Jam going on too. I'm just thinking the organizers were hoping for twice that much for attendance.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 18, 2019, 06:28:40 AM
Quote from: sac on March 17, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2019, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 11, 2019, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: D3ball1845 on March 11, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
Smitty Oom, are you going out to Fort Wayne for Championship Weekend? I'm excited to see the All-Star game in person, but I'm trying to figure out how well it will be attended as it is directly prior to the Championship game. Likely going to risk buying general admission weekend passes when I get to Fort Wayne and show up to the All-Star game at about 3:30 when warm ups begin.
That arena is much larger than Salem, where we've been in the past, and there's never really been issues getting a good seat for the All-Star game. The big X-factor is how many local, hoops-crazy hoosiers will show up to watch.
It was pointed out by sac on the MIAA board that Final Four tix were $15 apiece, which is a rather steep price to pay for a casual fan who doesn't have a strong rooting interest in any of the four teams. That may have helped to keep the attendance down to 2,000 or so, when I think that a somewhat lower ticket price might've brought in a much better house.
Not just the $15, it was the $8 service fee per ticket to do it online which is nearly everyone's first action these days. First words out of my mouth when I saw that was "screw that". Whether that's standard or not its a deterrent when you have no dog in the fight and you're looking at $23 to make sure you get a seat. Add in a parking fee and then the usual overpriced grub inside the arena it gets to be an expensive day for an average fan.
Most D3 games are around 7 or 8 bucks if they even take admission at all. Now you're asking people to pay twice or even 3 times as much.
It needs a rethink or we're all going to have to be happy with lackluster crowds.
This is the first year they did pre-sales - and they reported 2700 of them over the weekend. With something like 3600 total sold, I'd say that's a pretty significant percentage. That does include the team allotments, which have always been available ahead of time. I'm not sure what you want to do with that data, but there it is.
Sac would probably say no charge for online sales; let it be a cost of hosting the Final 4 absorbed by the facility.
There's always been pre-sales and Ticketbasterds was used in Salem as well. The parking fee is probably the only major difference.
If you want a good reserved seats, you're gonna have to pay a premium, fees, higher priced seat etc. If you don't care where you sit, get a ticket at the door. Unless it's Stevens Point, Hope, IWU and some other well-supported team, I don't think you have to worry about a sellout. I never worried about it at Salem and I won't at Fort Wayne.
I'd be curious to know how many Wheaton fans were there. They were, by far, the closest team to Fort Wayne. Being the early game Friday night, you didn't even need a hotel room.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 18, 2019, 03:29:31 PM
If you want a good reserved seats, you're gonna have to pay a premium, fees, higher priced seat etc. If you don't care where you sit, get a ticket at the door. Unless it's Stevens Point, Hope, IWU and some other well-supported team, I don't think you have to worry about a sellout. I never worried about it at Salem and I won't at Fort Wayne.
I'd be curious to know how many Wheaton fans were there. They were, by far, the closest team to Fort Wayne. Being the early game Friday night, you didn't even need a hotel room.
Wheaton was the second game.
Ballpark figure of 500+ Wheaton fans there or more.
Thanks for the correction. CNU vs Swarthmore was the first. Duh.
Help me out here, Jack Flynn scored 0.2 less than Ben Boots, flynn was the leading rebounder, leading shot blocker, leading FG % on the national championship team in the toughest conference in the country and he's not the national player of the year. Point guards do nothing without the bigs controlling the boards, and I will always take a 60% big over a 40% PG....
So you don't think Francis should be POTY?
Hey, Francis merely had (arguably) the single greatest season in D3 history - why would that make him POY?
I'll be interested to see how high he ranks when the next all-decade team comes out. He was also second-team AA last year, but was only good, not great as a sophomore, and his freshman year was VERY undistinguished (he wasn't even a starter) at a CC. He went from Aston Francis to ASTON FRANCIS by dint of persistence and hard work, not by natural talent.
Vote for Austin Butler to represent D3 in the Slam Dunk Contest at the Final Four!
http://www.darkhorsedunker.com/
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Aston Francis named a 2nd team all-american by the NABC. Does anyone else find this to be a complete sham? Unmatched statistical success throughout the regular season followed by leading his team to the final four. NABC loses a lot of credibility IMO. An absolute snub.
Quote from: uaaaficionado on March 20, 2019, 01:25:59 PM
Aston Francis named a 2nd team all-american by the NABC. Does anyone else find this to be a complete sham? Unmatched statistical success throughout the regular season followed by leading his team to the final four. NABC loses a lot of credibility IMO. An absolute snub.
As far as I'm concerned, the NABC never had any credibility to lose in the first place.
They place eight players on the first team -- not that any coach could put eight players on the floor at once, mind you. And one has to be from each region, whether that region has 80 teams or 38.
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2020
They're here. Let the savaging begin!
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 05, 2019, 12:40:53 PM
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2020
They're here. Let the savaging begin!
Surprised that Jack Davidson is on the fourth team. You'd think a reigning first-team AA as a sophomore would be higher.
Quote from: CollegeGolf18 on November 08, 2019, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 05, 2019, 12:40:53 PM
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2020
They're here. Let the savaging begin!
Surprised that Jack Davidson is on the fourth team. You'd think a reigning first-team AA as a sophomore would be higher.
The NABC had him first-team. We didn't have Davidson as an AA last season. Though he was a first-team All-Region selection and there was plenty of debate about it last March.
We don't structure our AA teams the same way the NABC does (one player from each region on each team equally eight and arguably some are higher than they should be as a result - all regions are equal?).
And with all due respect to the NABC, we aren't beholden to their selections. So they can put him on their first-team, but it doesn't change how we consider players.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 08, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
Quote from: CollegeGolf18 on November 08, 2019, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on November 05, 2019, 12:40:53 PM
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2020
They're here. Let the savaging begin!
Surprised that Jack Davidson is on the fourth team. You'd think a reigning first-team AA as a sophomore would be higher.
Ahhhh, I thought he was a d3hoops AA last year. Totally forgot that it was actually NABC -- thanks for the clarification.
The NABC had him first-team. We didn't have Davidson as an AA last season. Though he was a first-team All-Region selection and there was plenty of debate about it last March.
We don't structure our AA teams the same way the NABC does (one player from each region on each team equally eight and arguably some are higher than they should be as a result - all regions are equal?).
And with all due respect to the NABC, we aren't beholden to their selections. So they can put him on their first-team, but it doesn't change how we consider players.
I watched NWU take St. John's apart earlier this evening. Ranked #12 pre-season, SJU isn't exactly dog meat, and will likely be playing a pretty decent brand of basketball in the vast majority of it's games this year. And, speaking of pretty decent, NWU's Nate Schimonitz shot 50% in scoring 26 points, had 10 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. This is nothing new to Schimonitz. In the last two seasons, he has averaged 16.5 and 17 PPG and was a key player in NWU's 2017-2018 National Championship.
Based on his high level of past performance in the upper echelon of D3 competition over the past 2 years , it seems like Schimonitz could well have appeared on the current pre-season AA list.
Quote from: AndOne on November 08, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
I watched NWU take St. John's apart earlier this evening. Ranked #12 pre-season, SJU isn't exactly dog meat, and will likely be playing a pretty decent brand of basketball in the vast majority of it's games this year. And, speaking of pretty decent, NWU's Nate Schimonitz shot 50% in scoring 26 points, had 10 rebounds, and dished out 6 assists. This is nothing new to Schimonitz. In the last two seasons, he has averaged 16.5 and 17 PPG and was a key player in NWU's 2017-2018 National Championship.
Based on his high level of past performance in the upper echelon of D3 competition over the past 2 years , it seems like Schimonitz could well have appeared on the current pre-season AA list.
Definitely true. For me, I didn't see a full recovery last year, after the injury; if he keeps this up, though, certainly a strong candidate for the AA awards at the ends of the season. Impressive performance tonight from him and the squad.
In honor of D1 announcing their Naismith Player of the Year Finalists this week, I have decided to create a list that is equally as honorable to be mentioned on...
Smitty Oom's National Player of the Year Finalists
1. Jake Ross - Springfield - NEWMAC
2. Nate Schminonitz - Nebraska Wesleyan - ARC
3. Buzz Anthony - Randolph-Macon - ODAC
4. Nate West - LeTournaeu - ASC
5. Connor Rairdon - North Central (Ill.) - CCIW
6. Sam Jefferson - Colby - NESCAC
7. Jake Rhodde - Elmhurst - CCIW
8. Carter Voelker - UW-Platteville - WIAC
9. Jacob Bates - Centre - SAA
10. Adam Fravert - UW- Oshkosh -WIAC
11. Gabriel Liefer - Yeshiva - Skyline
12. Jubie Alade - St. John's - MIAC
13. Connor Sepiel - Wittenberg - NCAC
14. Marcus Dempsey - Muskingum - OAC
15. Eric Demers - Gordon - CCC
16. Andrew Bruggink - Wisconsin Lutheran - NACC
17. Kevin Dennis - Morrisville St - NEAC
18. Brian Cameron - Wesley - AEC
19. Jack Nolan - Washu - UAA
20. Booker Coplin - Augsburg - MIAC
Somewhat in order, although I did not spend a lot of time doing that.
Would love to hear some players I missed (because I am sure I did).
Austin Grunder, SUNY Cortland, Soph (1st year with team) 21.4 ppg 15.2 rebs/gm (#2 in country). .532 FG%
Quote from: thebear on February 06, 2020, 11:35:09 AM
Austin Grunder, SUNY Cortland, Soph (1st year with team) 21.4 ppg 15.2 rebs/gm (#2 in country). .532 FG%
Funny thing is the last edit I made to the list was to take Grunder out and put in Dennis, primarily due to Dennis' team having a better record and the likely NEAC rep for the NCAA tourney. You are right though, Grunder should definitely be in this conversation. Where was he last year?
He is having a better year than Jack Nolan, but I felt it was important to get a player from the UAA on this list. Nolan is scoring at a very efficient clip this year.
That's a pretty rock-solid list. The only New England guy who I can think of to potentially add is Heath Post. I know he's overshadowed by Ross, but he's a damn good player in his own right (and the two of them really combine to carry that entire team). 17.4-10.5-2.4, 47/46/87 splits, plus 2.7 combined blocks/steals and only .6 TOPG.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 06, 2020, 11:10:19 AM
In honor of D1 announcing their Naismith Player of the Year Finalists this week, I have decided to create a list that is equally as honorable to be mentioned on...
Smitty Oom's National Player of the Year Finalists
1. Jake Ross - Springfield - NEWMAC
2. Nate Schminonitz - Nebraska Wesleyan - ARC
3. Buzz Anthony - Randolph-Macon - ODAC
4. Nate West - LeTournaeu - ASC
5. Connor Rairdon - North Central (Ill.) - CCIW
6. Sam Jefferson - Colby - NESCAC
7. Jake Rhodde - Elmhurst - CCIW
8. Carter Voelker - UW-Platteville - WIAC
9. Jacob Bates - Centre - SAA
10. Adam Fravert - UW- Oshkosh -WIAC
11. Gabriel Liefer - Yeshiva - Skyline
12. Jubie Alade - St. John's - MIAC
13. Connor Sepiel - Wittenberg - NCAC
14. Marcus Dempsey - Muskingum - OAC
15. Eric Demers - Gordon - CCC
16. Andrew Bruggink - Wisconsin Lutheran - NACC
17. Kevin Dennis - Morrisville St - NEAC
18. Brian Cameron - Wesley - AEC
19. Jack Nolan - Washu - UAA
20. Booker Coplin - Augsburg - MIAC
Somewhat in order, although I did not spend a lot of time doing that.
Would love to hear some players I missed (because I am sure I did).
Matt Mancuso - Scranton - LAND 17.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.9 spg. 1.9 bpg
I'm sure there are plenty of others to add--such is the nature of D3 when you have guys putting up crazy numbers on teams with less success vs. more modest numbers on true contenders.
One name I'll toss out is Whitworth's Ben College: Averaging 23.4 points per game on 49-44-91 and some high volume attempts, 15 shots a game, 8 attempts from three.
Whitworth is 15-4 and with Whitman (slightly) down, they have a really good chance to finally return to the tournament.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 06, 2020, 11:39:55 AM
Quote from: thebear on February 06, 2020, 11:35:09 AM
Austin Grunder, SUNY Cortland, Soph (1st year with team) 21.4 ppg 15.2 rebs/gm (#2 in country). .532 FG%
Funny thing is the last edit I made to the list was to take Grunder out and put in Dennis, primarily due to Dennis' team having a better record and the likely NEAC rep for the NCAA tourney. You are right though, Grunder should definitely be in this conversation. Where was he last year?
He is having a better year than Jack Nolan, but I felt it was important to get a player from the UAA on this list. Nolan is scoring at a very efficient clip this year.
Morrisville is 11-8; Massey 232, Cortland is 12-7, Massey 104. Matt Snyder has SUNYAC as the #19 conference, and NEAC as #39.
Grunder was a first team all NYS player in HS, has been at Cortland for two years before this year. No idea why he didn't play before this.
Very athletic 6-6, runs the floor well, high motor.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 06, 2020, 11:10:19 AM
Would love to hear some players I missed (because I am sure I did).
A couple players on teams that aren't too bad and putting up some stats
Elijah Lott - Purchase - Skyline (21.4ppg, 9rpg, 6.5 apg) 14-6 2nd place
Chris Labelle - Centenary (NJ) - CSAC (22.9ppg, 5.9rpg, 4.9apg) 14-7 1st place
I second Grunder over Dennis. Also, Ben College should be in the Top 10, minimum. He's one of the very best guards in the country.
Micah Elan at P-P might be another to consider. Connor Delaney at JHU is very, very good.
You seem to be pretty heavy on scorers.
Also, is Alade even the best player on his team? A lot of guys to consider from St. John's.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2020, 02:09:14 PM
I second Grunder over Dennis. Also, Ben College should be in the Top 10, minimum. He's one of the very best guards in the country.
Micah Elan at P-P might be another to consider. Connor Delaney at JHU is very, very good.
You seem to be pretty heavy on scorers.
Also, is Alade even the best player on his team? A lot of guys to consider from St. John's.
In my opinion, and I believe Smitty would concur, yes Alade is arguably the best player on the Johnnies team. He helps space the floor so the big men can score their points. Otherwise, teams would jam the paint and dare SJU to beat them from the outside. The Neb Wes - SJU game might of had a different outcome if Alade would have played that first game of the season.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2020, 02:09:14 PM
I second Grunder over Dennis. Also, Ben College should be in the Top 10, minimum. He's one of the very best guards in the country.
Micah Elan at P-P might be another to consider. Connor Delaney at JHU is very, very good.
You seem to be pretty heavy on scorers.
Also, is Alade even the best player on his team? A lot of guys to consider from St. John's.
I do think that Jubie is the best player on St. John's. In my eyes it's him or Walford but the shot making/creating ability and ball handling capability as well as defensive versatility puts him over the top. Not to mention the extremely ridiculous efficiency he has scoring right now.
I am heavy on scorers, but that's the name of the game. I definitely didn't need to include Dempsey and Demers, but scoring 30 points a game makes it hard for me to not include them. I wouldn't disagree with a list that excluded them for some of the players we have mentioned. Also, I don't have the time to watch every game and break down how players affect the game in ways that don't translate to the box score, so that is definitely a possible weakness in my own list.
Ben College's lack of rebounds and assists is what held him off my original list. Jack Nolan of WashU has similar numbers (granted not quite as great as Bens) and efficiency, but on a better team so I chose Nolan over College. With that being said. I think if I were to make an edit, I would probably include college over one of Dempsey or Demers.
Also, you guys have convinced me on Grunder over Dennis. Putting up similar scoring numbers and more rebounds in the SUNYAC is definitely more of a challenge than it would be in the NEAC.
Lastly, on Connor Delaney, I looked at his stats this morning to see if not including him was an oversight, and only 16 points on a 45/26/66 shooting line (4 3PT attempts from 3 per game) isn't going to cut it. Delaney is a great player (the 4.5 assists and 2:1 ast:to is very good), and JHU is a wonderful team, but he doesn't deserve to be on this list this year.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 06, 2020, 05:14:11 PM
Lastly, on Connor Delaney, I looked at his stats this morning to see if not including him was an oversight, and only 16 points on a 45/26/66 shooting line (4 3PT attempts from 3 per game) isn't going to cut it. Delaney is a great player (the 4.5 assists and 2:1 ast:to is very good), and JHU is a wonderful team, but he doesn't deserve to be on this list this year.
You should watch a game or two. JHU is only a great team (this year), because of Connor Delaney. One of the fastest guys I've seen in D3 and the kind of PG any coach would want running the show. I suspect he'll be the Mid-Atlantic POY and if he isn't, he should be.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on February 06, 2020, 05:14:11 PM
I suspect he'll be the Mid-Atlantic POY and if he isn't, he should be.
Conner is a great player and certainly deserves All-American attention. Jared Wagner (York PA) is another lead guard in same region and "should be" in discussion for Mid-Atlantic POY, year older and with better numbers. Both are on two of the best teams in region. Wagner leads CAC in P/G and top 5 in country in Assists and Steals per game.
CD: 16.4 P/G, 4.8 A/G, 3.8 R/G, 1.8 ST/G
JW: 17.3 P/G, 7.5 A/G, 5.0 R/G, 3 ST/G
Quote from: D3RetiredHooper on February 07, 2020, 01:15:38 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 06, 2020, 07:32:08 PM
I suspect he'll be the Mid-Atlantic POY and if he isn't, he should be.
Conner is a great player and certainly deserves All-American attention. Jared Wagner (York PA) is another lead guard in same region and "should be" in discussion for Mid-Atlantic POY, year older and with better numbers. Both are on two of the best teams in region. Wagner leads CAC in P/G and top 5 in country in Assists and Steals per game.
CD: 16.4 P/G, 4.8 A/G, 3.8 R/G, 1.8 ST/G
JW: 17.3 P/G, 7.5 A/G, 5.0 R/G 5.9 R/G, 3 ST/G
Yes Jared Wagner is having a great year! I did forget about him when making my original list. To add to those numbers above, he is currently much more efficient with shooting %s of 54.7/41.3/72.1. Yorkpa has had a lot of wonderful players come through in the past couple years. York is currently 17-5 with losses to only great teams (Marietta, Chris. Newport, Albertus Magnus, JHU and Roanoke (doesn't qualify as a
great team, but oh well, it fits my narrative)). Funny enough, in the Spartans loss to the Bluejays, both PGs struggled to score, but it appears Wagner had a better floor game.
CD: 10pts (3-10, 2-6), 4reb, 2ast, 1stl, 5to
JW: 9pts (3-8, 2-4), 9reb, 8ast, 3stl, 3to
Anyways, as of right now I would lean Wagner for Mid-Atlantic POY, with Connor Delaney a fellow 1st teamer. Both great players and deserving of the awards they will receive this year. I will try my best to watch the Johns Hopkins game next Wednesday against the Garnet as it will be a great game, with a bonus of getting to see Delaney for the first time this year!
I guess it makes sense to use numbers almost entirely, because even for All-Region voting, the panel often doesn't have a lot of other inputs to use.
So it will still be a few weeks before the All-Region and All-Americans are released?
I'm thinking Jake Ross (Springfield) and Nate West (LeTourneau) could be front-runners for POTY? Nate Schimonitz carried NWU.
All-Region is on track for next Tuesday, as it normally would be released.
Typically we would announce All-America on Saturday, at the championship site. But without the number of media at the championship site as an incentive to release it on a weekend, we will push it to the next week sometime, and our announcement may take a different form.
FYI NABC Reece's DIII All Star Game Rosters will be announced officially on Hoopsville!
Tune in Tuesday night at 7:00 PM ET. We will then chat with Trinity (Texas) men's coach (retiring :() Pat Cunningham about the selections and much more.
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While the season came to an abrupt end, there are still student-athletes, coaches, and programs to recognize for what they accomplished this season.
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I am not sure how Matthew Schner was left off the list but I guess there were good reasons.
Still...
15.5 points per game (18 points per game in conference), 7.4 rebounds per game, 3 assists per game on a team that had four players averaging in double figures and nearly had five. On a team that averaged 86 points and 40 rebounds per game.
In addition...
37 steals, 19 blocks
53 percent / 47 percent / 82 percent
UAA co-championship
Quote from: WUPHF on March 24, 2020, 10:29:27 PM
I am not sure how Matthew Schner was left off the list but I guess there were good reasons.
Still...
15.5 points per game (18 points per game in conference), 7.4 rebounds per game, 3 assists per game on a team that had four players averaging in double figures and nearly had five. On a team that averaged 86 points and 40 rebounds per game.
In addition...
37 steals, 19 blocks
53 percent / 47 percent / 82 percent
UAA co-championship
Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.
But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.
I am fine with hearing thoughts. We aren't going to pretend we are perfect, but we agonize over this stuff and we have to decide who is left off and who is included. So, the least all you can do is include who you were remove from a team for your selection ... so you can feel the agony we feel. :) (I am being light-hearted, just to be clear, but I do think the practice should be adopted.)
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 10:43:04 PM
Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.
Emory is not in the Central region.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 24, 2020, 10:49:12 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 10:43:04 PM
Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.
Emory is not in the Central region.
Yeah ... I walked away and went to change for the night (I stay up really late, sadly) and chat with my wife going to bed ... and it dawned on me we were talking about Emory. I just sat down to adjust ... and you had noted that.
:shrug: Brain is off apparently.
But thanks for just point that out ... you know the other part is accurate. Who would we remove for him. :)
Picking these awards are so damn hard---so many players in so many leagues around the country who put up eye-popping stats that are impossible to compare to folks like Matthew Schner (just the most recent example) whose numbers are more modest but on much better teams.
I would be curious to hear an explanation for both Fravert and Flynn on the 2nd-Team--I know it's hard to differentiate year-to-year, so you can't pretend that they weren't both huge pieces on a team that won the National Championship a year ago, and I also know that Oshkosh did win the WIAC this year, which is no small feat, but I would be hard pressed to believe that a team that went 20-9 and lost in the Round of 32 has 2 of the 10 best basketball players in the country.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 10:58:11 PM
Picking these awards are so damn hard---so many players in so many leagues around the country who put up eye-popping stats that are impossible to compare to folks like Matthew Schner (just the most recent example) whose numbers are more modest but on much better teams.
I would be curious to hear an explanation for both Fravert and Flynn on the 2nd-Team--I know it's hard to differentiate year-to-year, so you can't pretend that they weren't both huge pieces on a team that won the National Championship a year ago, and I also know that Oshkosh did win the WIAC this year, which is no small feat, but I would be hard pressed to believe that a team that went 20-9 and lost in the Round of 32 has 2 of the 10 best basketball players in the country.
Start with the fact they are forwards ... don't compare them with guards. We put actual "teams" together ... not five guards because it is easy. Fravert was co-WIAC POY and when you look at the impact the two had, especially after a 5-5 start to the season (meaning they were 15-4 to close; pretty comparable with most of the best teams in the country while playing in one of the more difficult conferences in the division) ... it was hard not to put them amongst the best forwards in the country.
I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he's a great player but I'm picking nits cause what else do we have to do? I think second team is quite high for Flynn. Personally, I think the arguments for Flynn is more subjective based.
Also.... I love the MIAC, but KENT HANSON? How in the world did he make All-American list? Don't get me wrong I love his game and is a wonderful scorer, but Carleton was not good this year and definitely can think of a list of players more deserving. Specifically Jubie Alade, the undoubtedly best player on SJU who is a top 5 team in the nation this year. A co-POY in the Miac with Booker Coplin and he gets left off for a player in the same conf.
Obviously a lot of great players left off due to the nature of the beast when making teams, and you can't satisfy everyone, but Those are my two thoughts after seeing the teams. I will listen back to the pod tomorrow at some point to hear the discussion and reasoning. Excited to listen!
I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he's a great player but I'm picking nits cause what else do we have to do?
Hempy is a guard ... not comparable. And Flynn wasn't chosen because of last year ... I assure you.
And you don't have to pick nits at all, right? HAHA I get you are bored, but ... :)
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
Also.... I love the MIAC, but KENT HANSON? How in the world did he make All-American list? Don't get me wrong I love his game and is a wonderful scorer, but Carleton was not good this year and definitely can think of a list of players more deserving. Specifically Jubie Alade, the undoubtedly best player on SJU who is a top 5 team in the nation this year. A co-POY in the Miac with Booker Coplin and he gets left off for a player in the same conf.
Again .. guard v forward comparison with Hanson and Alade .. both of whom were also first-team All-Region. There are a LOT more guards to consider which makes their category harder. But we can't compare guards and forwards when we are putting actual teams on the floor.
Connor Rairdon, Ryan Turrell and Jake Ross are all more of a point forward, and their position flexibility shows their invaluable basketball skills, but at the same time makes it hard when trying to classify them as a specific position for awards. Ben Simmons/LBJ/etc have the same problem in the NBA.
Alade is a wing player, as is Hanson. No reason they both shouldn’t be listed/eligible for the same position.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 11:12:57 PM
I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.
Lebron James is a point-forward, right? But we go with how they are given to us as positions. Turell is listed as a guard. Though, in this day in age, a forward running an offense like a point guard isn't all that unquie. There are a lot more of them now. Turell is perfect where is his and if we did compare him to Fravert, I think I would still have Turell ahead. Especially considering he can run the offense, shoot from outside, and tear it up inside. Having seen both players a lot ... I have always left being more wowed and impressed with Turell. (I have no idea if Fravert has DI offers, but Turell had a number of them he turned down to play at Yeshiva. He is a very good talent.)
And team's success if factored... again, UWO went from 5-5 to WIAC champions ... you don't think that isn't factored over just looking at a raw 20-9 number? It works both ways. We look at 20-9 and then understand it better. Just as I look at a team that is 20-9 and realize they weren't strong all season. UWO figured things out after a lot of changes from the first ten games and was one of the two best teams in the WIAC. We are considering that ...
And Luke Rogers was on our All-America teams.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:17:40 PM
Connor Rairdon, Ryan Turrell and Jake Ross are all more of a point forward, and their position flexibility shows their invaluable basketball skills, but at the same time makes it hard when trying to classify them as a specific position for awards. Ben Simmons/LBJ/etc have the same problem in the NBA.
Alade is a wing player, as is Hanson. No reason they both shouldn't be listed/eligible for the same position.
We can talk about how they are listed, but that is really up to coaches. I personally hate the "wing" because it doesn't help the conversation any. I know players listed as wings who never see the paint and those who never see the arc. It is turning into a position coaches use to keep people from understanding where they really play when the team is being scouted. Anything to try and gain some "advantage" real or perceived.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 11:15:18 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he’s a great player but I’m picking nits cause what else do we have to do?
Hempy is a guard ... not comparable. And Flynn wasn't chosen because of last year ... I assure you.
And you don't have to pick nits at all, right? HAHA I get you are bored ...
I pick nits because I care! I love awards and think about them probably too much, so at this point I am looking for some discourse and reasoning behind them. I get the position and make a team angle, but players are becoming less and less position rigid these days. To leave off a player entirely like Jubie and add Kent Hanson due to position, when they play the same position in all reality, is a disservice in my eyes.
But at the same time, you guys need to be as objective as possible throughout the process and I’m sure you use positions designated by the teams. You can’t watch all the games so there needs to be some process laid out. So yes, trying to use G and F for the teams makes a wing designation tough to decipher, but that’s where most of the guys play. I understand how this could make her choices.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 10:43:04 PM
Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.
But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.
I do not feel the need to offer a name because all I did was suggest that I did not know why he did not make the field.
I am curious though, theoretically, how would he have been the seventh selection in the Central Region. Just based on points?
So, who would I take him over? I watched more WIAC games than I should have and I'll go with Carter Voelker to start.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 11:20:35 PM
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 11:12:57 PM
I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.
Lebron James is a point-forward, right? But we go with how they are given to us as positions. Turell is listed as a guard. Though, in this day in age, a forward running an offense like a point guard isn't all that unquie. There are a lot more of them now. Turell is perfect where is his and if we did compare him to Fravert, I think I would still have Turell ahead. Especially considering he can run the offense, shoot from outside, and tear it up inside. Having seen both players a lot ... I have always left being more wowed and impressed with Turell. (I have no idea if Fravert has DI offers, but Turell had a number of them he turned down to play at Yeshiva. He is a very good talent.)
And team's success if factored... again, UWO went from 5-5 to WIAC champions ... you don't think that isn't factored over just looking at a raw 20-9 number? It works both ways. We look at 20-9 and then understand it better. Just as I look at a team that is 20-9 and realize they weren't strong all season. UWO figured things out after a lot of changes from the first ten games and was one of the two best teams in the WIAC. We are considering that ...
And Luke Rogers was on our All-America teams.
I have no problem with Jack Flynn being named an All-American in addition to Adam Fravert. My issue is with Flynn being on the second team. There are so many good players and so many good teams and Oshkosh did not have a season of team success worthy of two Second-Team selections.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 24, 2020, 11:31:50 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 10:43:04 PM
Well for starters, he would have been at least the seventh selection from the Central for 25 slots ... and there is a lot of good talent around the country.
But I suggest the following for anyone who suggests someone who should have been replaced: they must name the person they would replace them for ... and why.
I do not feel the need to offer a name because all I did was suggest that I did not know why he did not make the field.
I am curious though, theoretically, how would he have been the seventh selection in the Central Region. Just based on points?
So, who would I take him over? I watched more WIAC games than I should have and I'll go with Carter Voelker to start.
But if you want to say "so and so should be on the team," don't we have to remove someone from the list to make that happen? It isn't a fair practice to just throw names out (all of whom have been considered) without also going through the practice of figuring out who you would remove to make that suggestion happen. That is how it works. It can't work any other way (unless you are some who name one player from each region to each team or others who name 40 to their honorable mentions just to cover the bases).
As I stated above, I messed up with the Central Region reference. I got my names backwards in my head (based on your screen name) and when I came to correct it, TitanQ had already pointed it out ... so too late to edit it accordingly. My brain is done and I swapped names and schools. My point was to say that six Central Region players had already made the list and that were a lot of other good talent around the country ... I'm not sure more than 1/4 of the team from one region was going to happen ... though, I didn't realize there were six from the Central Region until I announced them tonight. But again, moot considering Schner is from Emory and that meant South Region.
Voelker was co-WIAC Player of the Year (with Fravert) I'm not sure how we remove Voelker from the picks just based on that detail.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 11:37:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 11:20:35 PM
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 11:12:57 PM
I can appreciate that answer as well as the fact that you try to put together actual teams. I wasn't comparing them to guards, Schner was just the name mentioned in a prior comment so I ran with him. I would also have to mention the fact that Yeshiva considers Ryan Turrell a point guard even though he is listed at forward on this First-Team. I would swap him and Fravert and then swap Flynn with Nate Shafer on the 4th team, despite the fact that Flynn as directly compared to Shafer is a better basketball player, I would just have to factor in the team success a little more heavily. Luke Rogers would also have to be in that conversation as well, Tufts did win the NESCAC.
Lebron James is a point-forward, right? But we go with how they are given to us as positions. Turell is listed as a guard. Though, in this day in age, a forward running an offense like a point guard isn't all that unquie. There are a lot more of them now. Turell is perfect where is his and if we did compare him to Fravert, I think I would still have Turell ahead. Especially considering he can run the offense, shoot from outside, and tear it up inside. Having seen both players a lot ... I have always left being more wowed and impressed with Turell. (I have no idea if Fravert has DI offers, but Turell had a number of them he turned down to play at Yeshiva. He is a very good talent.)
And team's success if factored... again, UWO went from 5-5 to WIAC champions ... you don't think that isn't factored over just looking at a raw 20-9 number? It works both ways. We look at 20-9 and then understand it better. Just as I look at a team that is 20-9 and realize they weren't strong all season. UWO figured things out after a lot of changes from the first ten games and was one of the two best teams in the WIAC. We are considering that ...
And Luke Rogers was on our All-America teams.
I have no problem with Jack Flynn being named an All-American in addition to Adam Fravert. My issue is with Flynn being on the second team. There are so many good players and so many good teams and Oshkosh did not have a season of team success worthy of two Second-Team selections.
I don't necessarily agree as I've stated already. Winning the WIAC indicates the season was pretty darn good and it wasn't like they were a Cinderella six-seed. Sure, the opening ten games weren't great ... but they figured things out even after losing Duax and succeeded in arguably the toughest conference in the country. Split stats also show Flynn improved during the season as the team improved. He also had a pretty good NCAA tournament despite losing to NCC ... and we do take into account the NCAA tournament (even if it was only two games) as we always have.
And when we looked at it, I don't think we could argue the forwards behind Flynn were better than Flynn.
I know you made the Central Region reference, but I guess I am trying to figure how that would have mattered had he been a Central Region player. But, no matter.
So, you cannot remove the WIAC co-player of the year from the third team?
Matthew Schner was the UAA co-player of the year...the UAA coaches thought he was just as good as third-team Jack Nolan.
By the way, I hope you are still light-hearted and hour after you responded the first time because we are just talking about basketball here.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:27:18 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 11:15:18 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 24, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
I agree with SpringSt. Flynn was 16 and 6. Like how about Danyon Hempy from Wooster, a team that was quite comparable to Oshkosh, THIS YEAR. I understand he's a great player but I'm picking nits cause what else do we have to do?
Hempy is a guard ... not comparable. And Flynn wasn't chosen because of last year ... I assure you.
And you don't have to pick nits at all, right? HAHA I get you are bored ...
I pick nits because I care! I love awards and think about them probably too much, so at this point I am looking for some discourse and reasoning behind them. I get the position and make a team angle, but players are becoming less and less position rigid these days. To leave off a player entirely like Jubie and add Kent Hanson due to position, when they play the same position in all reality, is a disservice in my eyes.
But at the same time, you guys need to be as objective as possible throughout the process and I'm sure you use positions designated by the teams. You can't watch all the games so there needs to be some process laid out. So yes, trying to use G and F for the teams makes a wing designation tough to decipher, but that's where most of the guys play. I understand how this could make her choices.
I watch more games than I really should ... because I'm sure my family would like me to spend a little more time being sane. :) (My son is starting to watch games as well, this could become a problem in the house LOL).
I think I saw very few players in the AA teams not play this season. I try not to just go by numbers and certainly we don't just pick those with the best numbers. In fact, we only have four of the five top scorers in the country on our All-America teams and number-one is in the honorable mention section ... because we do realize the nuiances and we do understand that every team, schedule, conference, etc. is different.
The problem with "wing" is everyone would use that if able and it would actually make it FAR more difficult. Then the arguments in our conversations and from others would be "but you have all guards on that team" and "there is no way four forwards and a guard would be on the floor" because we do all know where "wings" play.
But I disagree that everyone is playing the wing ... as I stated earlier. I have been tempted to mention to one coach to stop listing several of his players wings because they never leave the arc .. and another to stop because some of his players never leave the paint. Sure, there are motions and movements that put players everywhere on the floor. Players want to be heros and will shoot the three point shot. And many have adapted their game, especially in DIII, to be available anywhere on the floor ... but that doesn't mean we still don't have guys who are primarily guards and those who are primarily forwards, even if sometimes where they are on the floor changes that look from time to time.
Jack Flynn, Oshkosh (20-9), WIAC Champs, Round of 32 appearance: 16.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 54.4 FG%
Luke Rogers, Tufts (23-6), NESCAC Champs, Sweet 16 (and counting): 16.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 57.6 FG%
I think you could pretty clearly argue Rogers was better than Flynn---and I don't even like Rogers!
Quote from: WUPHF on March 24, 2020, 11:50:00 PM
So, you cannot remove the WIAC co-player of the year from the third team?
Matthew Schner was the UAA co-player of the year...the UAA coaches thought he was just as good as third-team Jack Nolan.
By the way, I hope you are still light-hearted and hour after you responded the first time because we are just talking about basketball here.
No... I'm saying I'm not sure we could remove Voelker from the All-America team, period. His body of work along with being a Co-WIAC Player of the Year seems to indicate he's good enough, right?
I am being light hearted while giving real answers ... I'm not taking it that seriously. But I do wish when people respond "so and so should be on the team" it comes with the consideration and the suggestion of who should be removed... because that is toughest part of all of this.
BTW - even moving Voelker down a team doesn't solve the problem ... someone would have to be removed. Schner had a good season, but he seemed to fade in the second half. Most of his 15.5 points came in the first two months of the season. He was averaging 17.3 in November and 18.0 in December. Hit the UAA schedule and suddenly he was at 13.7, 14.5, 13.5 the next few months. When we were having to nit-pick, that was part of our consideration. I can't say where the inconsistency was .. but sadly, when trying to shoehorn 50 guys into a 25-member team ... things like that are considered.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 24, 2020, 11:55:26 PM
Jack Flynn, Oshkosh (20-9), WIAC Champs, Round of 32 appearance: 16.6 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 54.4 FG%
Luke Rogers, Tufts (23-6), NESCAC Champs, Sweet 16 (and counting): 16.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 57.6 FG%
I think you could pretty clearly argue Rogers was better than Flynn---and I don't even like Rogers!
Against similar competition, right?
Rogers also shot 46.7% from the FT line.
Tufts had an SOS of 0.594, which would be 3rd in the country according to Matt Snyder. Oshkosh had a 0.601, 2nd in the country, while obviously giving them props for their absurd 0.633 non-conference SOS.
I guess free throw shooting was the deal breaker---not doubling up in rebounds, tripling in blocks, or averaging the same amount of points on a better percentage.
Dave I can't believe you've got me arguing so fervently for Luke Rogers! Oshkosh just shouldn't have two guys in the first two teams. They simply weren't good enough. Hunter Hill and Ben Ryan last did it for Augustana in 2016---they were 29-2 and went to the Elite 8. That type of team success seems to make a lot more sense.
I'd say all the arguments are pretty fair.
It didn't all end up the way I would've chosen, either.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 24, 2020, 11:59:15 PM
I am being light hearted while giving real answers ... I'm not taking it that seriously. But I do wish when people respond "so and so should be on the team" it comes with the consideration and the suggestion of who should be removed... because that is toughest part of all of this.
I love discussions like this and appreciate understanding the thought process you guys used. I agree with 90% of the sections and you will never make everyone happy. Glad you are staying light hearted as well know it can be tough to convey tone through messages, especially when we can disagree on things.
I personally think Flynn is too high, but so be it. I can live with that one, it's not that bad in my eyes. He would probably be on my 4th or HM team.
The one that I really can't understand is Kent Hanson though. Carleton was 11-14, 8-12 in conference that was very top heavy (sans UST and SJU MIAC was down this year for sure) and didn't even make the 6 team conf playoffs. Calvin was at least a good team and above .500 and made their conf tourney. Kent Hanson has a great senior year, 20/8 with very efficient shooting numbers, but I look at every other team on this list and they are very good. I just don't think he fits in. So when I say I think Jubie was snubbed, as you said I need to knock someone off, and that's Kent Hanson. Jubie is listed as a wing on the roster for SJU, if you can list Turell (who coach Eliot has notes as the team PG previously) and Rairdon as F I think Jubie is definitely eligible for that designation. Even so, off the top of my head I definitely think Connor Sepiel of Witt would be more deserving given his team's great success this year. He definitely is a F! Lol 😂
I'll say two things:
1) I don't personally like to associate team success with individual awards (too much).
2) You would be amazed at how unexpectedly great your mind can change when you spend a couple hours with a group of people actually hashing these things out.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 25, 2020, 12:10:22 AM
Tufts had an SOS of 0.594, which would be 3rd in the country according to Matt Snyder. Oshkosh had a 0.601, 2nd in the country, while obviously giving them props for their absurd 0.633 non-conference SOS.
Massey SOS:
Oshkosh #1
Tufts #25
https://www.masseyratings.com/cb2020/ncaa-d3/ratings
From the game watching I did this year, I thought Jack Flynn was the best 5-man in the country. His combination of size, strength, and skill is something I didn't see anywhere else.
I believe Flynn was the hardest 5 to gameplan against, because you absolutely can't let him be one-on-one in the low post with the ball. You have to build your entire defense around preventing him from getting it there, and once he does get it you absolutely have to double.
Based on Flynn's numbers and overall impact vs the toughest schedule in the country, and the fact he helped his team to a 2nd place regular season finish and conference tournament title in the best league in the country, 2nd Team seems good to me.
The All-American team is a completely subjective exercise. The way one person, or panel, sees things is always going to be different than how another person or panel sees it.
A few other thoughts...
1) I have always loved the intent of the D3hoops.com Top 25 to construct 5 teams that could actually play a game. Meaning instead of the 1st Team having 5 guards, you reward the value of all positions. This is how the teams should be constructed in my opinion.
2) I don't love the D3hoops crew being tied to whatever position is on the roster. There is too much inconsistency in the way players are listed on rosters. I think about IWU's roster. Doug Wallen is listed as a G, and Wallen is a big, physical player who plays the 4...sometimes 3. He is as F as there is...not a G. Not sure why they call him a G. I see this kind of thing across every roster. Gs that should be Fs...Fs that should be Gs...Fs that should be Cs...some teams have "wings"..etc. Based on this, I think the end product ends up being flawed to some degree.
3) I think some positions on the floor are undervalued to some degree. For example, I think PGs get squeezed by higher scoring SGs - not much value placed on the stud pure PG (the guy who dominates the game by being a stud ball handler, distributor, floor general). I think some pure centers (5s) - the dominant back-to-basket guy that that scores 14 ppg and shoots near .550 and creates huge problems for the opposing defense - get squeezed at times by higher scoring face-the-basket forwards. Etc.
4) I think D3hoops should establish a position for each player -- PG, SG, G/F (wing), PF, F/C (we can debate what the positions are called another time - I don't think it would be hard to define this really clearly). Defining a position for every AA candidate is not hard to do nowadays with every team having video streaming. I would love to see more rigor put around positions, and then reward players across all 5 positions. Shouldn't all 5 All-American teams have a PG, for example? Shouldn't all 5 teams have a low post F or F/C or C type...vs slotting a guy at the 5 who is a wing/3 because he is a "F"? I think it would help to give every AA candidate a more clearly defined position and then pick from there.
Just some thoughts for consideration on how to take what is already a really good process and make it better.
We don't always lock guys into their nominated positions, but do try to respect the category the nominator puts them in. I know we've moved wings back and forth in the past when warranted.
One year, at least, i tried to get the true pg slot marked out, but we found it really isn't as cut and dry as we'd like to think.
The number of what I would consider true point guards -- guys who put up huge assist totals that we find credible and can also score -- has really gone down in Division III in the past 15 years or so. Similarly, we all know about back-to-the-basket guys across basketball, which makes a true 1-5 on every team really difficult to achieve.
On the same token, it also highlights the value of a guy such as Flynn. Would Oshkosh have even been in position to get as far as it did without both those guys? I think we know the answer and that's why both those guys are elevated.
Could Rogers have been higher? Yes. But I -- and this is me personally, you can take me to task on this if you like -- really value free-throw shooting.
And as others have said -- team success is definitely a thing, but it is not what we are generally trying to measure here. Yes, great teams have great players, but not-great teams also have great players. We didn't eliminate Carleton at 11-14, Gordon at 13-14, Calvin at 15-11.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 25, 2020, 08:26:41 AM
A few other thoughts...
1) I have always loved the intent of the D3hoops.com Top 25 to construct 5 teams that could actually play a game. Meaning instead of the 1st Team having 5 guards, you reward the value of all positions. This is how the teams should be constructed in my opinion.
2) I don't love the D3hoops crew being tied to whatever position is on the roster. There is too much inconsistency in the way players are listed on rosters.
Somebody needs to tell UST Coach Tauer you can't play a team of 5 guards. Modern coaches aren't tied to these positional constraints, so it makes some sense for the d3hoops.com selections to evolve with positional flexibility as well.
A look at the All-Region teams will show a lot of four-guard lineups. I'd say we're aware. (And, to add to the point, Tommy Anderson is listed as a forward, so what does that mean?)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2020, 09:47:45 AM
The number of what I would consider true point guards -- guys who put up huge assist totals that we find credible and can also score -- has really gone down in Division III in the past 15 years or so. Similarly, we all know about back-to-the-basket guys across basketball, which makes a true 1-5 on every team really difficult to achieve.
And let me clarify...
I don't think every team should have a pass-first, doesn't-score-a-lot PG...but just rather a guy who plays the PG spot.
And yes, there are barely any true Cs left anymore, so the AA teams have to recognize that for sure. But I do think there should be recognition for guys who play the 5 spot and are Fs (guys who spend time in the low post...even if they also shoot. a lot of 3s) vs guys who are pure wings and called Fs.
When I'm looking for those guys (ones who are forwards playing the 5), I'm usually looking for tall players with a bunch of boards and some blocked shots and not really looking to eliminate guys who shoot 3's, because let's be honest, we all love to shoot 3's. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2020, 10:00:40 AM
When I'm looking for those guys (ones who are forwards playing the 5), I'm usually looking for tall players with a bunch of boards and some blocked shots and not really looking to eliminate guys who shoot 3's, because let's be honest, we all love to shoot 3's. :)
Yes, absolutely. Most 5s shoot 3s nowadays.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 25, 2020, 09:58:28 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2020, 09:47:45 AM
The number of what I would consider true point guards -- guys who put up huge assist totals that we find credible and can also score -- has really gone down in Division III in the past 15 years or so. Similarly, we all know about back-to-the-basket guys across basketball, which makes a true 1-5 on every team really difficult to achieve.
And let me clarify...
I don't think every team should have a pass-first, doesn't-score-a-lot PG...but just rather a guy who plays the PG spot.
And yes, there are barely any true Cs left anymore, so the AA teams have to recognize that for sure. But I do think there should be recognition for guys who play the 5 spot and are Fs (guys who spend time in the low post...even if they also shoot. a lot of 3s) vs guys who are pure wings and called Fs.
There are just more and more teams that don't have a main ball handler. In the same way, there are fewer and fewer pure shooting guards, as well. I think it's great to have two guards on each team whose games match well with each other, but I don't think it'll always be in roles as defined as the traditional 1 and 2.
If you look this year, Schimonitz and West are both true, ball handling, strong passing PGs. I think West is more capable of playing the off ball role and you could see that happen on the floor. But, I imagine, if we had all five of those guys on the floor together, likely it's Raridon who would be the main assist man out of the high post.
As I look at these, teams, I'm realizing we do have some good guard mixtures. Buzz Anthony is clearly a PG, Bower-Malone can handle the ball fine, but he'd be a great off-guard, too, while Cameron can be a more traditional swingman easily; he loves to get to the hoop.
On the third team, Delaney is a PG and Nolan is a scorer; Voelker plays well in the paint. That fourth team might be off-guard heavy, but it's not like Rhode and Bruton couldn't do the ball-handling duties. And, as much as Demers scores, he's been a pass first PG for much of his career.
I'd hate to ever get to a point, though, where we're "demoting" someone simply because the two best guards are both 1s.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 11:44:24 AM
Quote from: Titan Q on March 25, 2020, 09:58:28 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2020, 09:47:45 AM
The number of what I would consider true point guards -- guys who put up huge assist totals that we find credible and can also score -- has really gone down in Division III in the past 15 years or so. Similarly, we all know about back-to-the-basket guys across basketball, which makes a true 1-5 on every team really difficult to achieve.
And let me clarify...
I don't think every team should have a pass-first, doesn't-score-a-lot PG...but just rather a guy who plays the PG spot.
And yes, there are barely any true Cs left anymore, so the AA teams have to recognize that for sure. But I do think there should be recognition for guys who play the 5 spot and are Fs (guys who spend time in the low post...even if they also shoot. a lot of 3s) vs guys who are pure wings and called Fs.
There are just more and more teams that don't have a main ball handler. In the same way, there are fewer and fewer pure shooting guards, as well. I think it's great to have two guards on each team whose games match well with each other, but I don't think it'll always be in roles as defined as the traditional 1 and 2.
If you look this year, Schimonitz and West are both true, ball handling, strong passing PGs. I think West is more capable of playing the off ball role and you could see that happen on the floor. But, I imagine, if we had all five of those guys on the floor together, likely it's Raridon who would be the main assist man out of the high post.
As I look at these, teams, I'm realizing we do have some good guard mixtures. Buzz Anthony is clearly a PG, Bower-Malone can handle the ball fine, but he'd be a great off-guard, too, while Cameron can be a more traditional swingman easily; he loves to get to the hoop.
On the third team, Delaney is a PG and Nolan is a scorer; Voelker plays well in the paint. That fourth team might be off-guard heavy, but it's not like Rhode and Bruton couldn't do the ball-handling duties. And, as much as Demers scores, he's been a pass first PG for much of his career.
I'd hate to ever get to a point, though, where we're "demoting" someone simply because the two best guards are both 1s.
Yes, not saying it is bad to have two combo guards on the same team. Schimonitz and West is a good example - they could easily both start together.
Just saying there shouldn't be an All American backcourt where 1 of the 2 Gs really could not play PG effectively in a real game. It is nice to acknowledge the critical importance of ball-handling and distribution on the AA teams.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 11:44:24 AM
I'd hate to ever get to a point, though, where we're "demoting" someone simply because the two best guards are both 1s.
At that point you would run the risk of taking the position stuff a little too seriously. I think everybody appreciates the effort to put together a team that can fit on the floor as a group of 5 together, because we are ultimately talking about "teams", but I think it is also still important to allow yourselves the flexibility to be able to move guys up and down based on their accomplishments and production throughout the year. I would say the way the positions were handled on these teams took care of that balance. Not every team fits perfect, but they fit enough to recognize each player the way they deserve to be recognized.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 25, 2020, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 11:44:24 AM
I'd hate to ever get to a point, though, where we're "demoting" someone simply because the two best guards are both 1s.
At that point you would run the risk of taking the position stuff a little too seriously. I think everybody appreciates the effort to put together a team that can fit on the floor as a group of 5 together, because we are ultimately talking about "teams", but I think it is also still important to allow yourselves the flexibility to be able to move guys up and down based on their accomplishments and production throughout the year. I would say the way the positions were handled on these teams took care of that balance. Not every team fits perfect, but they fit enough to recognize each player the way they deserve to be recognized.
And that's really the point. Ryan Turell brings the ball up the floor a lot for Yeshiva, but certainly not exclusively and the way their offense works, no one is really starting the offense or the focal point. The ball moves. Sure, Turell can shoot, but he's scoring most of his point in the paint and at the rim, so a G/F sort of thing is justifiable. We've done a lot of that in past, as well.
The issue's been a little more pronounced for women in recent years - it's tough to have 3 or 4 true back to the basket post players on one team. Things just don't work that way on the court.
Quote from: Pat Coleman
And as others have said -- team success is definitely a thing, but it is not what we are generally trying to measure here. Yes, great teams have great players, but not-great teams also have great players. We didn't eliminate Carleton at 11-14, Gordon at 13-14, Calvin at 15-11.
The thing is that Demers led the nation in scoring and DeVris was scoring 5 more points a game, same rebounds, only slightly less efficient and had better ast numbers on a team that made their conference playoffs in a league that Massey said was equal to the MIAC this year.
I really do think Hanson is a great player and deserving of his all conference, Josten Trophy Finalst honor, but I'm really surprised he made the top 25 players, all American list. There had to be another player that fit the "F" position. Connor Siepel comes to mind. Maybe Grunder from Cortland? Was there any debate between Hanson and those players or someone else? Obviously I'm not trying to change things, at this point I'm just curious what led you guys in this direction.
Sorry to come off as such a downer/complainer on this, but it really shocked me so this will be my last post on it. I really do appreciate the work you guys do and how responsive you are here.
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 25, 2020, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman
And as others have said -- team success is definitely a thing, but it is not what we are generally trying to measure here. Yes, great teams have great players, but not-great teams also have great players. We didn't eliminate Carleton at 11-14, Gordon at 13-14, Calvin at 15-11.
The thing is that Demers led the nation in scoring and DeVris was scoring 5 more points a game, same rebounds, only slightly less efficient and had better ast numbers on a team that made their conference playoffs in a league that Massey said was equal to the MIAC this year.
I really do think Hanson is a great player and deserving of his all conference, Josten Trophy Finalst honor, but I'm really surprised he made the top 25 players, all American list. There had to be another player that fit the "F" position. Connor Siepel comes to mind. Maybe Grunder from Cortland? Was there any debate between Hanson and those players or someone else? Obviously I'm not trying to change things, at this point I'm just curious what led you guys in this direction.
Sorry to come off as such a downer/complainer on this, but it really shocked me so this will be my last post on it. I really do appreciate the work you guys do and how responsive you are here.
Some of it has to do with All-Region voting. Seipel, for instance, would've been one of my choices, but he finished on the second team for the GL, behind DeVries and Tyler Frederick from LaRoche. As much as we try to watch games and see guys in person, there is some measure where we have to rely on people in the region, who see these guys more often, to provide some feedback.
It's one of the reasons I really like the All-Region/All-American system Pat has set up. It provides input from outside our central group of decision makers AND it gives input from people who see these players on a more regular basis.
Maybe we missed on Hanson. I don't know. Because of his team's record, I probably saw him play much less than a lot of others guys. He has been picked among the best forwards in his conference for three straight years now - not an easy feat in the MIAC. He was also the top forward for West All Region voting.
Yeah, there were other guys that could compete for that spot: Seipel for one, Zac O'Dell, Mahoney from RPI - I'm sure a few others that escape me at the moment. In the end we went with Hanson. That was our decision. It's just as likely to be "wrong" as "right" if there were some way to definitively quantify those things. We can only do our best.
There's a lot of Wooster folks upset about Hempy being overlooked. They're just as right in their criticism as you are. I'm not sure what else I can say.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 01:08:38 PM
Quote from: Smitty Oom on March 25, 2020, 12:37:03 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman
And as others have said -- team success is definitely a thing, but it is not what we are generally trying to measure here. Yes, great teams have great players, but not-great teams also have great players. We didn't eliminate Carleton at 11-14, Gordon at 13-14, Calvin at 15-11.
The thing is that Demers led the nation in scoring and DeVris was scoring 5 more points a game, same rebounds, only slightly less efficient and had better ast numbers on a team that made their conference playoffs in a league that Massey said was equal to the MIAC this year.
I really do think Hanson is a great player and deserving of his all conference, Josten Trophy Finalst honor, but I'm really surprised he made the top 25 players, all American list. There had to be another player that fit the "F" position. Connor Siepel comes to mind. Maybe Grunder from Cortland? Was there any debate between Hanson and those players or someone else? Obviously I'm not trying to change things, at this point I'm just curious what led you guys in this direction.
Sorry to come off as such a downer/complainer on this, but it really shocked me so this will be my last post on it. I really do appreciate the work you guys do and how responsive you are here.
Some of it has to do with All-Region voting. Seipel, for instance, would've been one of my choices, but he finished on the second team for the GL, behind DeVries and Tyler Frederick from LaRoche. As much as we try to watch games and see guys in person, there is some measure where we have to rely on people in the region, who see these guys more often, to provide some feedback.
It's one of the reasons I really like the All-Region/All-American system Pat has set up. It provides input from outside our central group of decision makers AND it gives input from people who see these players on a more regular basis.
Maybe we missed on Hanson. I don't know. Because of his team's record, I probably saw him play much less than a lot of others guys. He has been picked among the best forwards in his conference for three straight years now - not an easy feat in the MIAC. He was also the top forward for West All Region voting.
Yeah, there were other guys that could compete for that spot: Seipel for one, Zac O'Dell, Mahoney from RPI - I'm sure a few others that escape me at the moment. In the end we went with Hanson. That was our decision. It's just as likely to be "wrong" as "right" if there were some way to definitively quantify those things. We can only do our best.
There's a lot of Wooster folks upset about Hempy being overlooked. They're just as right in their criticism as you are. I'm not sure what else I can say.
Matt Mancuso - Scranton, for 1
Thanks for the response. I do appreciate it. I didn't realize Connor Siepel was on the second team of the Great Lakes. I have now decided to let Kent Hanson enjoy his impressive accomplishments. Enough bashing of my own conference!
I Listened to the podcast this morning and it was a fun listen and I'm glad you guys were able to have interviews for the top 3 awards recipients. As with you Ryan, I definitely miss the all star game. Fun to see what people have planned for the upcoming years. Always looked forward to the Top 25 Double Take with you and Bob joining Dave, my favorite segments. I know Dave said it always went longer than expected but I'd be down for planning out 30-45 minutes for it each show. Fun conversations all year longer.
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2020, 02:39:51 PM
Matt Mancuso - Scranton, for 1
If Zac O'Dell couldn't get on the All-America list, Mancuso wasn't going to get there, either. I liked what Mancuso was able to bring to the table this season and I know he put up some pretty nice numbers, but a lot of those numbers were thanks to the early part of the season when he averaged 20-plus points a game against Stevenson, Houghton, William Paterson, Wilkes and Cabrini - a combined 40-76 this season. His numbers then went down steadily from December through January. He definitely had an uptick in February, but at that point guys like Logan Bailey were driving the Scranton team.
We can't fit everyone on the teams, but consider who else we left off the list ... it was going to be a tough sell to get Mancuso on it.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 25, 2020, 09:57:44 AM
A look at the All-Region teams will show a lot of four-guard lineups. I'd say we're aware. (And, to add to the point, Tommy Anderson is listed as a forward, so what does that mean?)
If that were the case here (and not just the All-Region), the argument for Hanson over Alade (or whoever else) wouldn't be an issue.
I saw plenty of 5 guard lineups from UST though, as Anderson averaged only 16 mins per game.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2020, 03:10:47 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2020, 02:39:51 PM
Matt Mancuso - Scranton, for 1
If Zac O'Dell couldn't get on the All-America list, Mancuso wasn't going to get there, either. I liked what Mancuso was able to bring to the table this season and I know he put up some pretty nice numbers, but a lot of those numbers were thanks to the early part of the season when he averaged 20-plus points a game against Stevenson, Houghton, William Paterson, Wilkes and Cabrini - a combined 40-76 this season. His numbers then went down steadily from December through January. He definitely had an uptick in February, but at that point guys like Logan Bailey were driving the Scranton team.
We can't fit everyone on the teams, but consider who else we left off the list ... it was going to be a tough sell to get Mancuso on it.
what about the games in that same period(York,DeSales,Bates,Mass-D,Susquehanna,Drew-a combined 110-54) when he averaged 16.3 pts, 11.5 rebs, 1.5 assists, 1.2 steals, 2 blocks/game?
I suppose I'm in a boat by myself because I don't even think positions really matter. It's interesting how All-Region teams can have four guards and a forward/Center, but the All-American teams need a 2/3 or 3/2 formation of guards and forwards/centers. Now-a-days teams can play five guards or "go big" with 3 or 4 big men. Even rosters seem so vague with G/F, Post, Wing, etc positions now listed. ESPN made a big deal about the Houston Rockets not playing anyone taller than 6'5" and called it small ball.
The Stevens Point Pointers' back to back championship had Jason Kalsow, 6'7" running the point sometimes. As someone eluded to,a point forward. Point's championship team in 2015 didn't even have a guy above 6'4" in their regular rotation, I believe. Everyone shot the ball, everyone could shoot the 3.
I guess I don't understand the need for positions. Why should Player A not be able to make the AA 1st team simply because there's already 3 guards on the first team, even if Player A is better than one of the forwards on the 1st team?
Never has there been a time in a game-time situation where a coach told a player he wanted him to be on the floor but couldn't because, "Oh, we already have 3 guards on the floor. Sorry dude."
Having 1st team, 2nd team etc should simply be there to designate the top 5 players, the next top 5 players, in my opinion. Why should it have to be the top 3 guards and the top 2 forwards, and then the next top 3 guards and the next top 2 forwards. If there are 5 guards that are truly the best 5 players in the nation, why not have all five on the 1st team?
Another question, if Yeshiva lists 6'7" Ryan Turell as a guard, why do you list him as a forward, so you can get him on the 1st team? Height shouldn't play into what position a player is. As I previously stated, Stevens Point basically didn't have anyone above 6'4". So, are they all guards?
The NEWMAC's All-Conference team doesn't even list positions.
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2020, 04:28:21 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 25, 2020, 03:10:47 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 25, 2020, 02:39:51 PM
Matt Mancuso - Scranton, for 1
If Zac O'Dell couldn't get on the All-America list, Mancuso wasn't going to get there, either. I liked what Mancuso was able to bring to the table this season and I know he put up some pretty nice numbers, but a lot of those numbers were thanks to the early part of the season when he averaged 20-plus points a game against Stevenson, Houghton, William Paterson, Wilkes and Cabrini - a combined 40-76 this season. His numbers then went down steadily from December through January. He definitely had an uptick in February, but at that point guys like Logan Bailey were driving the Scranton team.
We can't fit everyone on the teams, but consider who else we left off the list ... it was going to be a tough sell to get Mancuso on it.
what about the games in that same period(York,DeSales,Bates,Mass-D,Susquehanna,Drew-a combined 110-54) when he averaged 16.3 pts, 11.5 rebs, 1.5 assists, 1.2 steals, 2 blocks/game?
You might notice that I selected the November games ... those were the early part of the season.
And to your point, here is his split:
November 20.6 ppg 11.2 rpg 2.8 apg 2.2 spg 1.2 bpg
December 17.4 ppg 10.8 rpg 1.6 apg 1.0 spg 1.6 bpg
January 16.3 ppg 11.0 rpg 2.1 apg 2.0 spg 2.9 bpg
February 18.4 ppg 10.0 rpg 4.2 apg 1.4 spg 1.2 bpg
He had a decent game against York with 21 points but surprisingly only 6 rebounds.
I don't buy into the stats for blocks too much because I have found recently there are a number of stat takers who apparently miss blocks far too much. His January number seems to be bouyed by an abnormally high number of blocks against Catholic - but I can't speak for that game as I wasn't able to watch that particular one.
So ... again ... feasted on the November schedule which was his best set of numbers in three of the five categories and second in a third category. I appreciate his scoring was up in February and he certainly threw out a number of assists, though I have no idea why.
Again ... worthy candidate and as Ryan and Pat have indicated in many places ... we had 40 players worthy of being in the 25 slots. Mancuso was one who didn't make it and I'm not sure he would have made it over O'Dell (though, I can't even remember how the vote totals finished in the Mid-Atlantic Region between those two).
So again, feasted on the teams I listed, then lost over four points a game until February. Nice recovery, but the point remains...
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 25, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
I suppose I'm in a boat by myself because I don't even think positions really matter. It's interesting how All-Region teams can have four guards and a forward/Center, but the All-American teams need a 2/3 or 3/2 formation of guards and forwards/centers. Now-a-days teams can play five guards or "go big" with 3 or 4 big men. Even rosters seem so vague with G/F, Post, Wing, etc positions now listed. ESPN made a big deal about the Houston Rockets not playing anyone taller than 6'5" and called it small ball.
The Stevens Point Pointers' back to back championship had Jason Kalsow, 6'7" running the point sometimes. As someone eluded to,a point forward. Point's championship team in 2015 didn't even have a guy above 6'4" in their regular rotation, I believe. Everyone shot the ball, everyone could shoot the 3.
I guess I don't understand the need for positions. Why should Player A not be able to make the AA 1st team simply because there's already 3 guards on the first team, even if Player A is better than one of the forwards on the 1st team?
Never has there been a time in a game-time situation where a coach told a player he wanted him to be on the floor but couldn't because, "Oh, we already have 3 guards on the floor. Sorry dude."
Having 1st team, 2nd team etc should simply be there to designate the top 5 players, the next top 5 players, in my opinion. Why should it have to be the top 3 guards and the top 2 forwards, and then the next top 3 guards and the next top 2 forwards. If there are 5 guards that are truly the best 5 players in the nation, why not have all five on the 1st team?
Another question, if Yeshiva lists 6'7" Ryan Turell as a guard, why do you list him as a forward, so you can get him on the 1st team? Height shouldn't play into what position a player is. As I previously stated, Stevens Point basically didn't have anyone above 6'4". So, are they all guards?
The NEWMAC's All-Conference team doesn't even list positions.
I think positions still matter even if people would argue otherwise. Playing the shift so much in baseball the same could be true. In soccer, same argument even though there are still positions (guy could be a forward midfielder, but he's still a midfielder).
I appreciate positions because then we are putting together a team we think would actually take to the floor. As Ryan has pointed out a few times, I am not sure if we just went with "best players with no regard for where they are playing" (which is FAR too simplistic and disregards the fact we do put who we think are the best players on the respective teams) then I think we end up putting together teams that a coach wouldn't realistically put on the floor (all five small guards aren't going to be as much of a threat if the defense doesn't have to worry about any of them going into the paint).
Per your comment, I don't think it is relevant. If a coach had the talent we are putting together I think you might find a lot of them trying to find as much balance as possible and then rotating other guys to fill the positions. The All-Star Game comes to mind where this takes place. They split their subs up to balance the teams when they are on the floor as much as they can - or what works best (believe it or not, those games may be fun but they get serious quick).
And sometimes we will go with 2G 3F or 4G 1F when we feel it necessary. The second team is 3G 1F 1C if member serves.
Per Turell, I think we have a typo somewhere. One place we have him listed as a Guard and the other as a Forward. I've been meaning to check that and I keep forgetting. But height has never been part of the equation. We take what the nomination has been presented to us which usually mirrors what the coach has dictated on rosters already during the season. I don't know if we have ever changed the designation formally ... but I know we have discussed often if a person is properly labeled, whether it is our purview to change it, and if there are other ways we can accomplish the same end-goal without making a change - a change I think we have made rarely if ever.
BTW - per your UWSP point, I remember their last championship they weren't all that tall, but they still listed guys as forwards.
And we don't tend to follow conference examples or decisions ... because usually there is more going on in some conferences that we rather keep from controlling what we do (the amount of politics is pretty ... interesting let's just say).
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 25, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
I suppose I'm in a boat by myself because I don't even think positions really matter. It's interesting how All-Region teams can have four guards and a forward/Center, but the All-American teams need a 2/3 or 3/2 formation of guards and forwards/centers. Now-a-days teams can play five guards or "go big" with 3 or 4 big men. Even rosters seem so vague with G/F, Post, Wing, etc positions now listed. ESPN made a big deal about the Houston Rockets not playing anyone taller than 6'5" and called it small ball.
The Stevens Point Pointers' back to back championship had Jason Kalsow, 6'7" running the point sometimes. As someone eluded to,a point forward. Point's championship team in 2015 didn't even have a guy above 6'4" in their regular rotation, I believe. Everyone shot the ball, everyone could shoot the 3.
I guess I don't understand the need for positions. Why should Player A not be able to make the AA 1st team simply because there's already 3 guards on the first team, even if Player A is better than one of the forwards on the 1st team?
Never has there been a time in a game-time situation where a coach told a player he wanted him to be on the floor but couldn't because, "Oh, we already have 3 guards on the floor. Sorry dude."
Having 1st team, 2nd team etc should simply be there to designate the top 5 players, the next top 5 players, in my opinion. Why should it have to be the top 3 guards and the top 2 forwards, and then the next top 3 guards and the next top 2 forwards. If there are 5 guards that are truly the best 5 players in the nation, why not have all five on the 1st team?
Another question, if Yeshiva lists 6'7" Ryan Turell as a guard, why do you list him as a forward, so you can get him on the 1st team? Height shouldn't play into what position a player is. As I previously stated, Stevens Point basically didn't have anyone above 6'4". So, are they all guards?
The NEWMAC's All-Conference team doesn't even list positions.
Turell seems to be listed as a guard in the graphic and a forward in the text, so I guess he's both. Problem solved.
Well, the experts actually did a pretty good job this year in predicting the 25 AAs. Of the 25 preseason AAs, 12 made the post-season AA list. Underwood and Carius were both hurt, either the whole year or most of it. So, that's two more that the experts could have gotten right (and probably would have). ***golf clap***
| 1st | Team | Pre- Season |
| Schimonitz | NWU | |
| West | LeTourneau | 3rd |
| Ross | Springfield | 1st |
| Turell | Yeshiva | |
| Raridon | NCC | 1st |
| | | |
| 2nd | Team | |
| Cameron | Wesley | HM |
| Bower-Malone | Mt Union | |
| Anthony | RMC | 4th |
| Fravert | Oshkosh | HM |
| Flynn | Oshkosh | 1st |
| | | |
| 3rd | Team | |
| Nolan | Wash U | |
| Voelker | Platteville | |
| Delaney | JHU | |
| Brown | SUNY Potsdam | |
| Rogers | Tufts | |
| | | |
| 4th | Team | |
| Rhode | Elmhurst | 3rd |
| College | Whitworth | 2nd |
| Bruton | Nichols | |
| Shafer | Swarthmore | HM |
| Leifer | Yeshiva | 4th |
| | | |
| HM | Team | |
| Demers | Gordon | |
| Coplin | Augsburg | 1st |
| Jefferson | Colby | |
| DeVries | Calvin | |
| Hanson | Carleton | |
| | | |
| | | O'Dell-Swarthmore-1st |
| | | |
| | | Toney-NJCU-2nd |
| | | Seipel-Wittenberg-2nd |
| | | Carius-Monmouth-2nd |
| | | Gilmour-Hamilton-2nd |
| | | |
| | | Underwod-Texas-Dallas-3rd |
| | | Summers-Brockport-3rd |
| | | Dennis-Morrisville St-3rd |
| | | |
| | | Robinson-Amherst-4th |
| | | Davidson-Wabash-4th |
| | | Crumly-Covenant-4th |
| | | |
| | | Williams-Emory-HM |
| | | Bublitz-Stevens Point-HM |
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 06:17:00 PM
Turell seems to be listed as a guard in the graphic and a forward in the text, so I guess he's both. Problem solved.
Ryan, in your article on Yeshiva's Sweet 16 run, you quote Dan Katz as referring to Ryan Turell as "the best point guard in the country". Did that come up in conversation at all?
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 25, 2020, 10:25:15 PM
Well, the experts actually did a pretty good job this year in predicting the 25 AAs. Of the 25 preseason AAs, 12 made the post-season AA list. Underwood and Carius were both hurt, either the whole year or most of it. So, that's two more that the experts could have gotten right (and probably would have). ***golf clap***
| 1st | Team | Pre- Season |
| Schimonitz | NWU | |
| West | LeTourneau | 3rd |
| Ross | Springfield | 1st |
| Turell | Yeshiva | |
| Raridon | NCC | 1st |
| | | |
| 2nd | Team | |
| Cameron | Wesley | HM |
| Bower-Malone | Mt Union | |
| Anthony | RMC | 4th |
| Fravert | Oshkosh | HM |
| Flynn | Oshkosh | 1st |
| | | |
| 3rd | Team | |
| Nolan | Wash U | |
| Voelker | Platteville | |
| Delaney | JHU | |
| Brown | SUNY Potsdam | |
| Rogers | Tufts | |
| | | |
| 4th | Team | |
| Rhode | Elmhurst | 3rd |
| College | Whitworth | 2nd |
| Bruton | Nichols | |
| Shafer | Swarthmore | HM |
| Leifer | Yeshiva | 4th |
| | | |
| HM | Team | |
| Demers | Gordon | |
| Coplin | Augsburg | 1st |
| Jefferson | Colby | |
| DeVries | Calvin | |
| Hanson | Carleton | |
| | | |
| | | O'Dell-Swarthmore-1st |
| | | |
| | | Toney-NJCU-2nd |
| | | Seipel-Wittenberg-2nd |
| | | Carius-Monmouth-2nd |
| | | Gilmour-Hamilton-2nd |
| | | |
| | | Underwod-Texas-Dallas-3rd |
| | | Summers-Brockport-3rd |
| | | Dennis-Morrisville St-3rd |
| | | |
| | | Robinson-Amherst-4th |
| | | Davidson-Wabash-4th |
| | | Crumly-Covenant-4th |
| | | |
| | | Williams-Emory-HM |
| | | Bublitz-Stevens Point-HM |
Justin Summers from Brockport was another preseason All-American that would probably have made the post-season AA team if he hadn't been injured. He missed 9 games and saw limited action in 8 other games.
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 25, 2020, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 06:17:00 PM
Turell seems to be listed as a guard in the graphic and a forward in the text, so I guess he's both. Problem solved.
Ryan, in your article on Yeshiva's Sweet 16 run, you quote Dan Katz as referring to Ryan Turell as "the best point guard in the country". Did that come up in conversation at all?
I think I mentioned, maybe on on this thread, but Turell does perhaps bring the ball up the floor most for Yeshiva, but they've got three or four guys who share that responsibility. He might technically be their PG, but that role doesn't look the same for Yeshiva as it does a lot of places. They're all passing and movement and Turell's size allows him to score a lot in the paint and at the rim. He's definitely a guard in that he doesn't do a bunch of post moves and is confident as an outside shooter and ball handler, but he's very much a presence in the paint. He'd probably average a double-double if Leifer weren't such a preternatural rebounder and always in the right place to get the ball.
When we talk about positionless basketball, Turell is right at the top of that list. Perhaps if he'd gone D1 (where he definitely had offers), he would've been more of a perimeter player. We felt comfortable putting him in that fourth position because of the versatility of his game. Jake Ross is much more of a ball handling forward, too. He can shoot and drive, but he's also pretty big and a presence in the post.
Honestly, as much as I've been a Yeshiva stan this year, I had Turell on the second team and it was the rest of the group that pushed to move him up and felt comfortable with him in that fourth guard/forward spot. This may be one of those instances where ability trumps position - or where the diversity of his abilities allows for a broader understanding of position. That might be a better way to put it.
Great points. Will be interesting to see how they look next year without Halpert who probably fit the billing of at least looking the most like a PG, he was certainly their best ball handler. I would guess Turell will have the ball in his hands a lot more
Quote from: SpringSt7 on March 26, 2020, 10:34:25 AM
Great points. Will be interesting to see how they look next year without Halpert who probably fit the billing of at least looking the most like a PG, he was certainly their best ball handler. I would guess Turell will have the ball in his hands a lot more
Eitan Halpert will likely take over his brother's role. He's not quite as good a shooter, but his ball handling is probably better. He'd really rounded into an offensive threat by the end of the season. I don't think they'll lose much with him in the lineup. The big question will be whether they replace Dani Katz with the big man, Milovsky, or if they go a little smaller and insert Ofek Reef. Reef's done really well as the sixth man/ energy guy off the bench - it might be smart to keep him in that role. We'll see. I don't see them changing too much. I also assume they'll have a strong recruiting class in again, so we'll have to see how the freshmen change things.
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Hanson - 22.2/8.3/56/29/5 5/5
DeVries - 30.3/8.3/95/22/13 3/5
Shafer - 17.2/7.6/62/32/63 4/5
Flynn - 24.1/6.6/37/6/22 5/5
Fravert - 22.4/8.8/102/25/44 4/5
Raridon - 16.3/7.0/148/23/16 4/5
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Hanson - 22.2/8.3/56/29/5 5/5
DeVries - 30.3/8.3/95/22/13 3/5
Shafer - 17.2/7.6/62/32/63 4/5
Flynn - 24.1/6.6/37/6/22 5/5
Fravert - 22.4/8.8/102/25/44 4/5
Raridon - 16.3/7.0/148/23/16 4/5
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
I don't use the per 40 minute stuff because ... they don't play 40 minutes and the stat can be misconstrued. We are assuming a player keeps the same stamina and teams don't adjust? That they don't get in foul trouble that changes their approach to a game? The per 40 minute is a bell and whistle Presto likes to throw around to hide the fact they have issues with their stats package overall. BTW if we used that state for players in the "system," could you imagine their numbers? Does that mean they should be AAs automatically, too? Based on just stats?
Sorry ronk ... he didn't make the list. I'm moving on.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 26, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Hanson - 22.2/8.3/56/29/5 5/5
DeVries - 30.3/8.3/95/22/13 3/5
Shafer - 17.2/7.6/62/32/63 4/5
Flynn - 24.1/6.6/37/6/22 5/5
Fravert - 22.4/8.8/102/25/44 4/5
Raridon - 16.3/7.0/148/23/16 4/5
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
I don't use the per 40 minute stuff because ... they don't play 40 minutes and the stat can be misconstrued. We are assuming a player keeps the same stamina and teams don't adjust? That they don't get in foul trouble that changes their approach to a game? The per 40 minute is a bell and whistle Presto likes to throw around to hide the fact they have issues with their stats package overall. BTW if we used that state for players in the "system," could you imagine their numbers? Does that mean they should be AAs automatically, too? Based on just stats?
Sorry ronk ... he didn't make the list. I'm moving on.
I've always found the per 40 to be meaningless for the most part.
If my 12 year old son runs a 5:00 mile......................I promise that he is not running an 10K in 31:06855 ;)
When ppg is compared and the min/g for those ppg varies +/- 10-15% among the data, a standard such as p/40 min
is applied equally and is more meaningful than not.
One pick we all can agree D3Hoops got correct for certain is Nate West as Player of the Year. Young man could have averaged 40 points in the NESCAC, 50 in the Centennial, etc. If you never saw him play in person, find out where he is playing after graduating this June, and go watch. Simply NBA quickness, strong when he gets to the rim even against more than one defender, first choice in most every playground pickup game in the country. Listed at only 5'10"", memorable as Connie Hawkins ....
Per 40 can work for players on the same team, but you need to adjust for possessions if you're going to compare across teams. Your per 40 can look great if you have a super up tempo pace.
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
Yep. I can concur that we never look at anything per 40 minutes.
Well, because I'm bored. The experts are consistent, the last two years. They picked 12 preseason AAs that made the postseason list, just like the list this past year.
| 1st 2019 | Team | Pre-Season 2019 |
| Francis | Wheaton IL | 2nd |
| Boots | Oshkosh | HM |
| Butler | Whitman | 4th |
| Garver | NWU | 2nd |
| Nichols | Keene St | 4th |
| | | |
| 2nd | | |
| Ebel | Augustana | 3rd |
| Coplin | Augsburg | |
| Echevarria | Nichols | 4th |
| Raridon | NCC | |
| Bruns | ONU | 1st |
| | | |
| 3rd | | |
| Wiley | Swarthmore | |
| Rosenbaum | Pomona-Pitzer | |
| Ross | Springfield | 1st |
| O'Dell | Swarthmore | |
| Carius | Monmouth | |
| | | |
| 4th | | |
| DiCanio | Loras | |
| Fails | Hanover | 2nd |
| Gilmour | Hamilton | |
| Jomard | MIT | 3rd |
| Flynn | Oshkosh | |
| | | |
| HM | | |
| Casey | Williams | |
| Rose | IWU | |
| College | Whitworth | |
| Carter | CNU | |
| Toney | NJCU | 1st |
| | | |
| | | Roach-Whitworth-1st |
| | | Hewitt-Whitman-1st |
| | | |
| | | Duax-Platteville-2nd |
| | | Patron-Plattsburgh-2nd |
| | | |
| | | Schimonitz-NWU-3rd |
| | | Cook-NWU-3rd |
| | | Heskett-Williams-3rd |
| | | |
| | | Beckman-Hope-4th |
| | | Freund-Roanoke-4th |
| | | |
| | | West-LeTourneau-HM |
| | | Mosley-Ill. Tech-HM |
| | | Ruggles-Loras-HM |
| | | Scadlock-Williams-HM |
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2020, 03:41:09 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
Yep. I can concur that we never look at anything per 40 minutes.
What criteria was used that would put any or all of those ahead of Mancuso for AA selection? That was the focus, not that there was a stat of pts/40 min instead of pts/g.
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 04:35:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2020, 03:41:09 PM
Quote from: ronk on March 26, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Stats of AA forwards vs Mancuso in pts/40 min g/rebs/assists/steals/blocks # of 5 categories < Mancuso
Mancuso - 24.3/10.7/77/45/48
Looks like some other criteria was used to put those on the AA list ahead of Mancuso.
Yep. I can concur that we never look at anything per 40 minutes.
What criteria was used that would put any or all of those ahead of Mancuso for AA selection? That was the focus, not that there was a stat of pts/40 min instead of pts/g.
ronk - I know you don't like reading what I write ... but I did explain some of the thinking. Also, we don't use specific criteria. That's like asking what criteria is used in the Top 25 vote.
The other thing that comes to mind, is that some players actually play two positions. Third team AA Isaiah Brown from Potsdam was really a wing [3] on offense, his game was both perimeter (40 treys) and taking his man to the hoop from the arc. On defense, because of his length and athleticism he played mostly a power forward [4] (8.6 rebs/27 blocks), but I saw him a lot defending out on the arc (I kept the book, so saw every home game).
Just a thought
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 25, 2020, 11:44:24 AMOn the third team, Delaney is a PG and Nolan is a scorer; Voelker plays well in the paint. That fourth team might be off-guard heavy, but it's not like Rhode and Bruton couldn't do the ball-handling duties.
Well, naturally. After all, Jake Rhode isn't an off guard. He is definitely Elmhurst's point guard. There were four or five Bluejays who brought the ball up the floor this year that I saw, but forget about who brings the ball up the floor; as has been made clear in this conversation, that's no longer a true demarcator of who is a point guard and who isn't. Rhode has the ball in his hands about 50% of the time that the 'jays have the ball while he is on the floor in any given Elmhurst game. He
runs the offense as well as creating much of it himself. He had 119 assists on the year; Elmhurst's other starting guard, Nick Perry, had 75. Nobody else had more than 61. Rhode is as much of a PG as is anybody else in D3.
Quote from: jumpshot on March 26, 2020, 02:37:37 PM
One pick we all can agree D3Hoops got correct for certain is Nate West as Player of the Year. Young man could have averaged 40 points in the NESCAC, 50 in the Centennial, etc. If you never saw him play in person, find out where he is playing after graduating this June, and go watch. Simply NBA quickness, strong when he gets to the rim even against more than one defender, first choice in most every playground pickup game in the country. Listed at only 5'10"", memorable as Connie Hawkins ....
40 in the NESCAC
50 in the Centennial (THAT'S a good one by the way) ;)
Let me finish the "etc." part for you though.................
60 in the MAC Commonwealth
70 in the AEC
80 in the MAC Freedom
90 in the NEAC
and, in honor of Wilt Chamberlain..............
100 in the ACAA!!!!!!!
I look forward to the Sixers finally moving Ben Simmons to his rightful place at the 4................so that we can place Nate at the 1 for the 2020-2021 season.
GO SIXERS!!!!! :)
The conversation about whether or not teams are moving away from a true point guards is interesting.
Maybe I am confused or may be I am showing how little I know about basketball, but every UAA team this season had 2-3 players who for the most part played recognizably distinct role from everyone else on the court.
Maybe a little less with Case Western Reserve and Brandeis...
Or maybe it is a matter of degrees.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 27, 2020, 01:44:04 PM
The conversation about whether or not teams are moving away from a true point guards is interesting.
Maybe I am confused or may be I am showing how little I know about basketball, but every UAA team this season had 2-3 players who for the most part played recognizably distinct role from everyone else on the court.
Maybe a little less with Case Western Reserve and Brandeis...
Or maybe it is a matter of degrees.
Just about every D3 game I watched this year featured teams with guys who clearly played the PG spot. Some of those PGs were also scorers - like Elmhurst's Jake Rhode - but they were still clearly PGs.
My own team was an exception to that for the final 4-5 games of the year because both PGs were injured. IWU had a wing player play PG at the end of the year with several guys on the floor sharing PG responsibilities.
But I haven't noticed a movement away from teams having a clear PG.
Quote from: Titan Q on March 27, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on March 27, 2020, 01:44:04 PM
The conversation about whether or not teams are moving away from a true point guards is interesting.
Maybe I am confused or may be I am showing how little I know about basketball, but every UAA team this season had 2-3 players who for the most part played recognizably distinct role from everyone else on the court.
Maybe a little less with Case Western Reserve and Brandeis...
Or maybe it is a matter of degrees.
Just about every D3 game I watched this year featured teams with guys who clearly played the PG spot. Some of those PGs were also scorers - like Elmhurst's Jake Rhode - but they were still clearly PGs.
My own team was an exception to that for the final 4-5 games of the year because both PGs were injured. IWU had a wing player play PG at the end of the year with several guys on the floor sharing PG responsibilities.
But I haven't noticed a movement away from teams having a clear PG.
I've seen it a little, but I agree with much of your point. I have seen some teams shift who is bringing the ball up (besides substitutions dictating decisions) based on ball pressure, different defensive looks, where they want to start the ball, and such. But I agree it hasn't become prevelent.
All-Americans from another source. Read his criteria too before complaining. LOL
https://thatd3guy.wixsite.com/thatd3guy/post/2020-division-iii-all-americans
Quote from: jmcozenlaw on March 27, 2020, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: jumpshot on March 26, 2020, 02:37:37 PM
One pick we all can agree D3Hoops got correct for certain is Nate West as Player of the Year. Young man could have averaged 40 points in the NESCAC, 50 in the Centennial, etc. If you never saw him play in person, find out where he is playing after graduating this June, and go watch. Simply NBA quickness, strong when he gets to the rim even against more than one defender, first choice in most every playground pickup game in the country. Listed at only 5'10"", memorable as Connie Hawkins ....
40 in the NESCAC
50 in the Centennial (THAT'S a good one by the way) ;)
Let me finish the "etc." part for you though.................
60 in the MAC Commonwealth
70 in the AEC
80 in the MAC Freedom
90 in the NEAC
and, in honor of Wilt Chamberlain..............
100 in the ACAA!!!!!!!
I look forward to the Sixers finally moving Ben Simmons to his rightful place at the 4................so that we can place Nate at the 1 for the 2020-2021 season.
GO SIXERS!!!!! :)
Let's slip in a 95 in the NACC ;)
Demers averaged 32.4
Bruton averaged 23.0
Brown averaged 21.6
I think West could do pretty well in the CCC...a gold mine for fantasy owners.
Of all of the #d3hoops MBB players who played 4+ games in '20-21, only two averaged 15.0+ pts, 10.0+ reb, and shot 60%+ FG:
* Kameron Clark, 6-6 Jr C (Cairn), 18.9/15.5/.602
* Matt Leritz, 6-7 Jr C (Illinois Wesleyan), 16.1/10.1/.600
D3hoops.com released it's All-Region teams today. All-Americans to come.
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2020-21/index
My conversation with Ryan Scott about the 2020-21 All-American team...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omrs3WpeXq4
0:00 Role at D3hoops.com
3:28 D3hoops.com team
5:12 Supporting D3hoops.com via Patreon
8:46 Ryan's D3 story
11:20 The message boards
13:18 Hoopsville, Dave McHugh
15:05 2020-21 season
19:51 Cancellation of the 2020-21 D3 tournament
23:50 Cool stories from 2020-21
35:20 2021-22 roster questions
38:20 2021-22 top teams
41:17 Constructing the D3hoops.com All-American team (the process)
48:19 2020-21 1st Team
1:02:03 2nd Team
1:07:00 3rd Team
1:11:35 Misses? Peter Ragen? Nolan Ginther?
1:14:37 Final thoughts
2021 "We Are D3" roster reveal episode of the Q-cast...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9yM6EmLWvM&t=4s
Info on The Tournament: https://thetournament.com.
Thanks Q! I think I might be ready for the Elam Ending.
My conversation with Wheaton All-American Nyameye Adom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIaQWfRcEWQ&t=2295s
0:00 Getting to know Nyameye
1:55 Playing through a pandemic
7:52 Making sacrifices
10:47 HS career; picking Wheaton
16:44 Wheaton College
19:55 From injured to role player to star
25:37 The 2018-19 Final Four run
33:28 2020-21 season; depth
35:50 CCIW title game against IWU
40:10 Post-season honors
41:37 Will he return in 2021-22? CCIW expectations next year
43:39 Nyameye's #whyd3
45:19 February 15, 2020
49:29 Listening to each other; uplifting others
53:04 Plans after Wheaton, final thoughts
So, this has to be the most stacked group of pre-season all-American candidates ever, right?
In a normal year all of these guys would be locks for one of the three pre-season teams and probably one of the top two teams.: Luke Rogers, Jack Nolan, Conner Delaney, Isaiah Brown, Jake Rhode, Matthew Schner, Vinny D'Angelo, Ryan Turrell, Buzz Anthony, Nick Bowman, Josiah Johnson, Miles Mallory, Nyameya Adom, Gabriel Leifer, Matt Leritz, Ryan Algier (depending on health), and Levi Borchert. That's 17 guys! And I'm sure there are plenty of more strong candidates to boot ...
All five guys from last year's first team return. But Rogers, Nolan, Delaney, Rhode, Leifer, and Leritz are all legit first-team candidates as well, I'd say. I think I'd go with Anthony, Turrell, Nolan, Rogers and Josiah Johnson as my first team (although if doing it by position would need to swap a guard or two out, like for Miles Mallory). Again, just absolutely loaded.
Don't overlook Carthage's 6'5 swingman Fillip Bulatovic. In the eleven games that the Firebirds played last season he averaged 22.6 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Also, Augustana's 6'8 junior center Daniel Carr averaged 17.7 ppg and 10.8 rpg in Augie's twelve games last season. He has a very solid inside-outside game.
I feel like those two guys would likely be in the running in an normal year, as those are certainly all-American level stats, but in this kind of stacked year, seems like they would be long shots -- especially when they are (very likely) behind three other guys from their own conference (although maybe not, the CCIW guys would know better if they are ahead of, say, Leritz). A lot of REALLY good players are going to be shut out I imagine ...
Some guys from New England who I think would be in the running most years, but not this year, include Amherst's Grant Robinson (he was quite limited by injury the last season he played and I assume is now healthy), St. Joe's Jaecee Martin and Delshawn Jackson, UMass Dartmouth's Marcus Azor, and Brandeis's Tommy Eastman and Chandler Jones, but this year, it's just soooooo stacked that I don't see it happening for any of them.
Quote from: nescac1 on October 05, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
I feel like those two guys would likely be in the running in an normal year, as those are certainly all-American level stats, but in this kind of stacked year, seems like they would be long shots -- especially when they are (very likely) behind three other guys from their own conference (although maybe not, the CCIW guys would know better if they are ahead of, say, Leritz).
They're behind Adom, Leritz, and Rhode only in that: a) those three are all going to be seniors this season, and seniors always seem to get the benefit of the doubt when awards are handed out, even when a compelling case can be made that a non-senior player or players is/are more proficient; and b) Adom, Leritz, and Rhode represent the three teams that will undoubtedly be the preseason favorites in the CCIW coaches poll (and, thus, likely the preseason d3hoops.com poll as well), and we're all aware that how a team is viewed affects individual awards as well.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 05, 2021, 11:44:20 AM
Don't overlook Carthage's 6'5 swingman Filip Bulatovic. In the eleven games that the Firebirds played last season he averaged 22.6 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Also, Augustana's 6'8 junior center Daniel Carr averaged 17.7 ppg and 10.8 rpg in Augie's twelve games last season. He has a very solid inside-outside game.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 05, 2021, 04:09:15 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on October 05, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
I feel like those two guys would likely be in the running in an normal year, as those are certainly all-American level stats, but in this kind of stacked year, seems like they would be long shots -- especially when they are (very likely) behind three other guys from their own conference (although maybe not, the CCIW guys would know better if they are ahead of, say, Leritz).
They're behind Adom, Leritz, and Rhode only in that: a) those three are all going to be seniors this season, and seniors always seem to get the benefit of the doubt when awards are handed out, even when a compelling case can be made that a non-senior player or players is/are more proficient; and b) Adom, Leritz, and Rhode represent the three teams that will undoubtedly be the preseason favorites in the CCIW coaches poll (and, thus, likely the preseason d3hoops.com poll as well), and we're all aware that how a team is viewed affects individual awards as well.
For comparison;
FG% — *Leritz .600, Carr .468
3 PT% — *Leritz .500, Carr .389
Carr plays away from the basket more often than Leritz. 24% of Leritz' shots were from three. 38% of Carr's shots were from beyond the arc.
FT% — *Carr .855, Leritz .765
PPG — * Carr 17.7, Leritz 16.1
RPG — *Carr 10.8, Leritz 10.1
Fouls — *Carr 1 foul every 12.68 minutes of play. Leritz committed a foul every 10.46 minutes
Blocks — *Carr blocked a shot every. 29.58 minutes. Leritz blocked one every 31.38 minutes
Leritz, who plays closer to the basket more often, has a better overall shooting percentage from the field. Carr leads in the other categories analyzed. But, pretty darn close overall I'd say. Depends on what you want out of your big man in relation to the strengths of the other team members. I'd say a valid overall assessment would be, as Sager pointed out, that Carr is "behind" Leritz only because his team isn't as good overall, and he is not a senior as Leritz is.
With regard to Bulatovic, keep in mind that
as a sophomore, he was a
unanimous First Team CCIW All-Conference selection. Taking nothing away from any of the other great players mentioned, I guarantee that
if you saw them play, you'd be as impressed by Carr and Bulatovic as anyone else in the CCIW.
Quote from: Next Man Up on October 05, 2021, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 05, 2021, 11:44:20 AM
Don't overlook Carthage's 6'5 swingman Filip Bulatovic. In the eleven games that the Firebirds played last season he averaged 22.6 ppg and 9.4 rpg.
Also, Augustana's 6'8 junior center Daniel Carr averaged 17.7 ppg and 10.8 rpg in Augie's twelve games last season. He has a very solid inside-outside game.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 05, 2021, 04:09:15 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on October 05, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
I feel like those two guys would likely be in the running in an normal year, as those are certainly all-American level stats, but in this kind of stacked year, seems like they would be long shots -- especially when they are (very likely) behind three other guys from their own conference (although maybe not, the CCIW guys would know better if they are ahead of, say, Leritz).
They're behind Adom, Leritz, and Rhode only in that: a) those three are all going to be seniors this season, and seniors always seem to get the benefit of the doubt when awards are handed out, even when a compelling case can be made that a non-senior player or players is/are more proficient; and b) Adom, Leritz, and Rhode represent the three teams that will undoubtedly be the preseason favorites in the CCIW coaches poll (and, thus, likely the preseason d3hoops.com poll as well), and we're all aware that how a team is viewed affects individual awards as well.
For comparison;
FG% — *Leritz .600, Carr .468
3 PT% — *Leritz .500, Carr .389
Carr plays away from the basket more often than Leritz. 24% of Leritz' shots were from three. 38% of Carr's shots were from beyond the arc.
FT% — *Carr .855, Leritz .765
PPG — * Carr 17.7, Leritz 16.1
RPG — *Carr 10.8, Leritz 10.1
Fouls — *Carr 1 foul every 12.68 minutes of play. Leritz committed a foul every 10.46 minutes
Blocks — *Carr blocked a shot every. 29.58 minutes. Leritz blocked one every 31.38 minutes
Leritz, who plays closer to the basket more often, has a better overall shooting percentage from the field. Carr leads in the other categories analyzed. But, pretty darn close overall I'd say. Depends on what you want out of your big man in relation to the strengths of the other team members. I'd say a valid overall assessment would be, as Sager pointed out, that Carr is "behind" Leritz only because his team isn't as good overall, and he is not a senior as Leritz is.
With regard to Bulatovic, keep in mind that as a sophomore, he was a unanimous First Team CCIW All-Conference selection. Taking nothing away from any of the other great players mentioned, I guarantee that if you saw them play, you'd be as impressed by Carr and Bulatovic as anyone else in the CCIW.
Yep. And I should point out, for the sake of disclosure, that Next Man Up and I are partisans of two different CCIW programs that don't have a dog in this fight.
Fair enough. While there won't be five guys from one league on the pre-season all-American team, especially not this crazy loaded year, as to which are the best three, I defer to y'all ...
Quote from: nescac1 on October 05, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
I feel like those two guys would likely be in the running in an normal year, as those are certainly all-American level stats, but in this kind of stacked year, seems like they would be long shots -- especially when they are (very likely) behind three other guys from their own conference (although maybe not, the CCIW guys would know better if they are ahead of, say, Leritz). A lot of REALLY good players are going to be shut out I imagine ...
Some guys from New England who I think would be in the running most years, but not this year, ...Brandeis's Tommy Eastman and Chandler Jones, but this year, it's just soooooo stacked that I don't see it happening for any of them.
Collin Sawyer should be ahead of Eastman and Jones in the pecking order at Brandeis and seems like a real candidate for Northeast POY and AA. Not a lot of 24 (25?) year olds out there.
Jones and Sawyer were both first-team all-Association, ahead of all but one Emory player. They play different positions of course but both are very good and could return to the first-team again.
I think Eastman does a lot more on the floor than Sawyer, and Eastman really came into his own late in the year in 2020 (and he was a guy who was new to Midd and hadn't played for a full year before that so there was an adjustment period for him). He looked REALLY good in league play. I bet Eastman ends up as Brandeis's best overall player this year. (And I think in the last Brandeis season, Jones was an all-region pick but Sawyer was not, which is why I have Jones ahead of him, but I think those two are a toss-up).
Eastman was 14-7-1.5 on 55/41/77 splits in only 26 mpg. Very solid overall but in league play, he was ridiculous: 19-7-2, on 61/44/70 (!) splits. Those are borderline all-American level numbers for sure. The second half of the season, he was clearly Midd's best player, after taking awhile to adjust.
Sawyer was 16-3-1 on on 48/44/80 splits on 29 mpg (which was by far his best season). Overall, Eastman's numbers were marginally better although it's very close (in leagues that are basically even), but Eastman just crushed it late in the season and i think that likely carries over. Eastman is just a bigger, more athletic guy overall ... who has already been all-league in two different (high quality) conferences! If he stays healthy he's probably a lock for all-league in the UAA, which has to be some kind of record, right?
With four graduate students on the roster, in all events, Brandeis does look loaded. The UAA is going to be brutal this year.
Sawyer was 3rd team All-Region in 2020 and Jones was 4th-team. I think highly of Eastman as well (especially having seen him against Williams) but I do wonder what that dynamic will be like coming in as a grad transfer and sharing the rock with 2 ball dominant wings who have 11 combined years of experience under their belt. And from what it sounds like last year was the first year Sawyer was healthy?
Another big element is that the talent around the Northeast region, at least on paper, is down. Surely there will be guys that emerge but there are no Echevarria, Bruton, Nichols, Demers, Repoza, Coene, Hogan-Gary type guys that have been putting up crazy numbers against lesser competition and kind of hogging the regional awards, which we know are the starting block for AA. If Brandeis has a good season those guys should automatically be in the mix.
Oops my mistake on Sawyer missed that regional award. Brandeis will definitely be interesting. They also have that D1 transfer, though not sure how big an impact he's projected to make ...
A couple of guys who should definitely be in the All American discussion - Donyae Baylor-Carroll of PSU Harrisburg and Dan Gaines of Muhlenberg. Baylor-Carroll was conference player of year and All Region as a soph in 19-20 and really dominates the game as a 5'7" point guard - 19pts / 5 asst / 2 stl / 40% 3's / 80% FT for a team that is in the top 25 mix. Absolutely lit up Hopkins for 45 points in 2020 NCAA's, then dropped 26 on Yeshiva the next night. Gaines was 1st team all Centennial and 2nd team all region as a soph in 19-20 with numbers comparable or beyond Delaney - 16.5 pts / 5 reb / 5 asst / 52-43-85 shooting % and 35 min/gm. Could easily make the argument that he is more valuable to his team than Delaney. Muhlenberg took big strides in 19-20 and have almost all of their top players back. If they continue to trend upwards and seriously challenge Hopkins and Swarthmore this season look for Gaines to be in the Centennial Conference player of the year and All American mix.
I'm on record saying I thought Gaines was the best player in the CC in 19-20. We'll see what the last 18 months have done for him.
QuoteAll five guys from last year's first team return. But Rogers, Nolan, Delaney, Rhode, Leifer, and Leritz are all legit first-team candidates as well, I'd say. I think I'd go with Anthony, Turrell, Nolan, Rogers and Josiah Johnson as my first team (although if doing it by position would need to swap a guard or two out, like for Miles Mallory). Again, just absolutely loaded.
Needless to say, I approve of the job the voters did this season!
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2022
So, we have any early favorites?
Is Turell the favorite to win the POTY?
I think Schner from Emory will probably be 1st team (HM AA). Wabash's Davidson, who wasn't in the preseason AA has a shot at 1st team. I have to think Azor from MA Dartmouth is in the convo as well.
Anthony - RMC, Turell - Yeshiva, Nolan - Wash U, Johnson - UMHB and Rogers - Tufts were the preseason 1st team AA. Nolan got hurt, hurting his chances, but still a consideration. Rogers was hurt for awhile and Tufts suffered. But, he returned and Tufts finished 2nd in the NESCAC. Johnson, compared to the previous year, probably had a ho-hum year statistically, and also has cooled down lately.
Probably not 1st team, but Augsburg's Palmer has been a stud. But, Augsburg has lost 4 of their last 6. Others to consider: The "Lehman Brothers," Geathers and Batista leading Lehman to the CUNYAC summit. Darby from RIC, but they're middle of the pack. Ragen from Dubuque leading them to the top of the ARC. Peek from Wesleyan.
I believe Josiah Johnson has been playing hurt all or most of the season. FYI.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 17, 2022, 04:39:37 PM
I believe Josiah Johnson has been playing hurt all or most of the season. FYI.
He has been ...
Austin Grunder, 6-6 F, SUNY Cortland is averaging 22 points and 11 rebounds, - he is the real deal, active, athletic, shoots the three and can handle.
Carried his team almost single-handedly to their conference playoffs.
In 2019-20 he averaged 21.1 and 14.7, so a career double double through 2 years.
Already over 1,000 points and 600 rebounds in two seasons.
Candidates from New England for one of the first two teams: Azor, Jarred Houston, Jaecee Martin, Alex Sobel, Sam Peek. All would I think need a really big post-season to make it onto the first team (Azor and Houston probably have the best shot). John Adams and Nate Karren are two more really good young players, but their stats are probably too modest to be recognized as anything more than all-region this year. I think that's probably it for names to watch in New England for AA or HM honors.
Sam Stevens and Nicky Johnson are two strong ROY candidates from the region.
You have to take a look at All-Conference and then All-Region awards before you really get into this discussion.
Lots of people who did spectacular things last season are back this year, providing them with a "head start" so to speak with regard to discussion(s) concerning this year's A-A Team.
While I'm sure there are more than a few when you look at the country nationally as opposed to regionally, there are also several A-A level players who were not at the top of the radar screen last season. Accordingly, many of us who are more familiar with a region or two, as opposed to the national scene, may not be aware of some very strong A-A candidates from region(s) outside those they usually follow.
One of those players toils in one of the strongest conferences in the country, the CCIW. At this point, he is hindered both by not being in last year's A-A discussions, and by playing for the fourth place team in the conference. He is a 6'4" guard who was a unanimous First Team CCIW selection, and should also be highly placed regionally as well. He is Matt Helwig of North Central College. I think he makes a good A-A candidate as his stats reflect a strong overall game.
Matt Helwig 2021-2022 stats;
24.7 PPG
.527 FG%
.432 3 Pt%
.908 FT%
7.8 RPG
2.9 APG
1.1 SPG
1.2 A/TO Ratio
* Updated stats as of 2/27/22
Quote from: nescac1 on February 21, 2022, 11:53:52 AM
John Adams and Nate Karren are two more really good young players, but their stats are probably too modest to be recognized as anything more than all-region this year.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'm guessing John Lowther is ahead of John Adams in the WPI pecking order for awards, unless Adams wins NEWMAC POY which seems like a stretch to me.
As always, the New England players will not have the stats to match some of their competition from around the country. But I would put Sam Peek up there with any 2 way guy in the country, and Wesleyan is going to have the team success to match.
Justin Hardy in an honorary "6th man" spot on the first team.
Quote from: SpartyBlue on March 01, 2022, 07:18:58 PM
Justin Hardy in an honorary "6th man" spot on the first team.
Why would it need to be honorary? He played 21 games this year and beat CWRU almost by himself just a month ago.
Jack Davidson, who didn't even make any of the preseason teams, should be 1st team, IMO. Absolute stud, got Wabash to win the league and conference tournament title.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 01, 2022, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: SpartyBlue on March 01, 2022, 07:18:58 PM
Justin Hardy in an honorary "6th man" spot on the first team.
Why would it need to be honorary? He played 21 games this year and beat CWRU almost by himself just a month ago.
It was a good team win, though I know what you mean.
He had better games statistically against Dubuque as well as Nebraska Wesleyan two seasons ago, but the Spartans were the toughest opponent of the three and Hardy looked unstoppable.
Quote from: WUPHF on March 02, 2022, 12:27:53 AM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 01, 2022, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: SpartyBlue on March 01, 2022, 07:18:58 PM
Justin Hardy in an honorary "6th man" spot on the first team.
Why would it need to be honorary? He played 21 games this year and beat CWRU almost by himself just a month ago.
It was a good team win, though I know what you mean.
He had better games statistically against Dubuque as well as Nebraska Wesleyan two seasons ago, but the Spartans were the toughest opponent of the three and Hardy looked unstoppable.
Obviously nobody can wina game by themselves, but they sure weren't winning it without him.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 02, 2022, 12:52:25 AM
Obviously nobody can wina game by themselves, but they sure weren't winning it without him.
I love the quote from the story about Hardy adding 10 points just for being there.
Coaches are prone to hyperbole, but that seems demonstrably true.
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on March 01, 2022, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: SpartyBlue on March 01, 2022, 07:18:58 PM
Justin Hardy in an honorary "6th man" spot on the first team.
Why would it need to be honorary? He played 21 games this year and beat CWRU almost by himself just a month ago.
Ok, I'll give you that. He also tore up my Dubuque team with 28/11 in November.
https://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2021-22/index
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/2022
Congrats to Buzz Anthony. Well deserved.
A list (NOT intended to be comprehensive) of some players to watch going forward, none of whom were pre-season all-Americans. All having great individual seasons, and generally on very strong teams to date. I bet if they stay healthy all end up as at least all-region guys. Not listed in any particular order ...
Jalen Overway - 24/12/3 on 61/33/86 plus 1 bpg for 5-0 Calvin
Spencer Freedman - 17/2/6 on 67/56/100 (!) for 5-0 NYU (transfer from Harvard)
Greg Rowson - 20/8/3 on 45/30/72 plus 3.8 combined bpg and spg for 4-0 Mary Washington (missed last year with injury)
Christian Parker - 19-9 on 52/0/55 plus 5 combined bpg and spg (!) for 5-0 Mount Union
Zevi Samet - 26/5/1 on 49/48/83 plus 1 spg for 3-3 Yeshiva (6 3pt FGM per game)
Ocean Johnson - 19-7-2 on 47/39/81 plus 1 spg for 5-0 Elmhurst
Prescious Okoh - 26/4/5 on 49/48/83 plus 1 spg for 4-0 Bridgewater State (transfer from Maine)
Nate Amado - 24/8/1 on 49/39/79 for 4-2 Babson
Toby Harris - 24/7/2 on 60/57/82 (!) plus over 1 bpg and 1 spg for 5-0 Brandeis (also scored 16 in an exhibition v. D1 N.H.)
Josh Angle - 24/5/4/ on 58/50/77 plus over 1 spg for 3-1 CMS
Ja'Zere Noel - 25/8/1 on 52/41/77 plus 1 bpg for 2-2 Rowan (tough early schedule for Rowan; transfer from Lincoln University)
Octavio Brito - 21-5-3 on 50/49/75 plus 3 spg for 5-0 Keene State (playing like a top 10 team thanks to him and pre-season AA Hunter)
Joseph Bull - 14/12/7 on 43/20/50 plus 1 spg and 9-1 assist to turnover ratio for 4-0 Oneonta (missed last year with injury)
Caleb Williams - 20/5/4 on 48/44/65 plus 2 spg for 5-0 Macalester
Jonathan Park - 17/11 on 58/67/90 plus 2 bpg for 4-1 Nazareth (back for grad year)
One super under-the-radar name to watch, Jake Harrison, a former Boston Globe all scholastic, now a sophomore at Western New England.
He's putting up a 17-10-7 line plus 2 spg and 1.4 bpg on 56/44/76 splits for a solid 6-2 team. In his two year career, he's shooting 60 percent overall and 40 percent from 3, and obviously is very versatile. He goes up against undefeated Trinity on Saturday.
When are regional AA players being released? Thanks in advance.
Quote from: TheOsprey on February 28, 2023, 10:51:54 PM
When are regional AA players being released? Thanks in advance.
Usually right before the championship game.
Regional AA isn't a thing.
All-Region is announced on Tuesday or so of the week of the Final Four.
All-America is announced right before the championship game.
https://d3hoops.com/awards/all-americans/men/preseason-2024#google_vignette
Preseason AA is out.
New Jersey continues to produce amazing basketball players at all levels. Thinking through potential D3 all region / all american players this season, I found it amazing to see how many are from New Jersey. In no particular order, here is a list of some really special players who hail from the garden state.
- Hank Morgan (Caldwell NJ / Tufts) - NESCAC POY, 2 time first team all NESCAC, 2024 All Region, #3 most efficient player in nation, #20 in nation in total points, 53% FG, 82% FT, scored in double figures in every game this season, best player in top 3 conference in country
- Jacob Morales (Pascack Hills NJ / Montclair State) - Breakout star after transferring from Rutgers (walk-on), 1st team all NJAC, led nation in 3 pointers made, #17 most efficient player in nation, 51% FG/46% 3PFG/91% FT
- EJ Matthews-Spratley (Cherry Hill, NJ / Stockton) - 1st team all NJAC, 11th leading scorer in nation, #5 in 3 pointers made, # 5 in nation total points, 89% FT, 5 30+point games
- Peter Gorman (South Amboy NJ / Ramapo) - NJAC POY, 2 time first team all NJAC, 2024 NABC All District, #14 in nation in total points, top 10 in nation minutes played, 47% FG/42% 3PFG/85% FT
- Scott Gyimesi (Fair Haven NJ / Tufts) - 2 time first team all NESCAC, 2024 All Region, 2024 NABC All District, #13 in nation in double doubles, #14 in total rebounds, 58% FG, #68 most efficient player in nation
- Jack Spellman (Westfield NJ / Stevens) - 3 time MACF DPOY, 3 time first team all MACF, 2023 & 2024 All Region, 2024 NABC All District, #3 in nation blocks, #6 in nation rebounds, #12 in nation double doubles, #24 most efficient player in nation, 56% FG, 1k pts/1k reb/300 blks (first D3 player since 2010), # 11 all time in D3 blocked shots
- Nick Koch (Hawthorne NJ / TCNJ) - 2 time first team all NJAC, #15 in nation in total points, 22 PPG/4.5 APG/50% FG, scored in double figures in all but one game this season, absolutely electric ball handler and passer
- Jordan Stafford (Galloway NJ / Gettysburg) - 2025 CC DPOY, 2024 CC POY, 2 time first team all CC, 2024 NABC All District, 57% FG, Led conference in minutes played, tremendous all around player
Congrats on tremendous seasons (and careers) to these Jersey Boys.