I just purchased my tickets to fly out from the basketball Siberia that is California, to Salem to watch this years Final Four.
Now this begs the very premature question... who am I going to see there? Who do we think is going it make it, given the NCAA tournament policy trends, and who is currently hot?
I love speculation. :)
Not knowing which regions are paired for the elite eight (not to mention it being rather early in the season!), I'm not going to make ANY attempt to answer your question!
But you WILL almost certainly see at least 3 very good teams (with this screwed-up system, there is not infrequently a team that barely (if even) belongs in the top 25, but MOST final four teams are pretty darn good (though, alas, they are NEVER the top four teams in d3).
It looks like my trip out to Salem may have to be put off for another year. It seems my wife refuses to walk to work and thus we must purchase a new vehicle... there goes my basketball money. I'm still headed up to see Grinnell and Lawrence this weekend, but it may be the extent of my road trips this year.
I would expect to see one of the following in the final four: Amherst, York or VA Wesleyan. Hopefully with a 1-3 chance, I can get one right.
I'm already lobbying a new found basketball buddy who also supports SLIAC hoops, as well as a couple of SLIAC coaches to take a road trip. Leaving St Louis at three in the morning, no problem arriving Salem in time to check in, eat and hit the Civic Center for pregame festivities. (ahhh, no problem if I'm driving and am not interfered with by any fine officers of the law). A steady 75 will get you there.
Quote from: hopefan on January 24, 2006, 08:59:21 AM
A steady 75 will get you there.
1) Remember, drive in the right-hand lane.
2) Put the cruise control on 74.
3) Accelerate (to 78-82 MPH) to pass the slower traffic in the left-hand lane.
4) Resume cruise control in the right-hand lane.
5) Upon catching slower traffic, then repeat #3, #4, #3, #4, #3, #4, #3, #4. :)
At least it works in the south and southwest. ;)
If you get too far East the speed limits all go down to 55 and 65, which totally makes it feel more exhilirating when you're still doing 80.
Diehardfan -
Here are my guesses on your questions.
Given the NCAA's seeding tendencies, at least one team that has no business there will make the final four having beaten a series of overmatched opponents
At least one team now ranked in the top 5 will be there.
My guess is that the Ohio or Wisconsin conferences will also be represented. I think that 2 of the 4 will be Pool C teams.
Just my 2 cents.
C
Quote from: diehardfan on January 23, 2006, 10:57:42 PM
I just purchased my tickets to fly out from the basketball Siberia that is California, to Salem to watch this years Final Four.
Now this begs the very premature question... who am I going to see there? Who do we think is going it make it, given the NCAA tournament policy trends, and who is currently hot?
I love speculation. :)
You are going to see Men's Basketball and 7000 fans. Four teams will make it. If a fifth team shows up -- they are either lost their way or still don't realize they lost. One team will most likely be a Cinderella long shot. According to the U.S. Weather Service Florida, Texas, Arizona, Nevada and California are "hot"!
P.S. - Start making cookies for the coaches on the West Coast as you just never know whom might be willing to give up their tickets for your fabulous cookies :o
Quote from: iwumichigander on January 24, 2006, 11:44:38 AM
You are going to see Men's Basketball and 7000 fans.
Only if IWU makes it. I hear they travel well. Oh yeah, you're an IWU fan! Of course you'd say that. ;D
Let's see if they can get out of their
regional this year first! Yeah, I'm a Point fan and I was looking forward to that much-anticipated IWU/Point clash, though the Trinity game was pretty awesome anyway.
April,
If our ONE WIAC rep makes it, I'll probably come out. Vacation is already set, just depends who plays.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on January 24, 2006, 08:44:31 AM
It looks like my trip out to Salem may have to be put off for another year. It seems my wife refuses to walk to work and thus we must purchase a new vehicle... there goes my basketball money. I'm still headed up to see Grinnell and Lawrence this weekend, but it may be the extent of my road trips this year.
Quote from: hopefan on January 24, 2006, 08:59:21 AM
I'm already lobbying a new found basketball buddy who also supports SLIAC hoops, as well as a couple of SLIAC coaches to take a road trip. Leaving St Louis at three in the morning, no problem arriving Salem in time to check in, eat and hit the Civic Center for pregame festivities. (ahhh, no problem if I'm driving and am not interfered with by any fine officers of the law). A steady 75 will get you there.
Hoops Fan, note the geography.
Hopefan, do your SLIAC coaches know there is a separate reception and social for Division III coaches Friday night after the game? Page Moir, the Roanoke coach, hosts a get-together.
hey, maybe I'll have to become an assistant coach for the weekend..... :D :D :D
hopefan -
It's always a good time! Free beer until it runs out and munchies. Plus the humor of trying to figure out what the heck Coach Moir is saying.
C
Coach C - don't forget everyone scratching their head as we watch some upset in the NCAA Division I tournament (of course last year, I think there was a few more upsets!).
And as some will remember, the view at the Roanoke Athletic Center is always nice (just watch out for Jared "the Hustler" Rosenbaum!).
Quote from: Old School on January 24, 2006, 01:04:57 PM
Quote from: iwumichigander on January 24, 2006, 11:44:38 AM
You are going to see Men's Basketball and 7000 fans.
Only if IWU makes it. I hear they travel well. Oh yeah, you're an IWU fan! Of course you'd say that. ;D Let's see if they can get out of their regional this year first! Yeah, I'm a Point fan and I was looking forward to that much-anticipated IWU/Point clash, though the Trinity game was pretty awesome anyway.
OS - Wow, what a battle this year in the CCIW - we gotta get out of the CCIW before we think NCAA tourney. IWU does travel extremely well. Its really hard for a lot of D3 schools to understand how well until the Titan Nation invades their arena. Plus, understand also traveling with IWU is a radio broadcast team and one or more sports reporter(s) from the local Pantagraph newspaper. We are really fortunate for the local non-student fan support; and have had for many years. We consider the fan base part of the program and a really great recruiting tool to have a visiting high school recruit come into the Shirk Center with 3000 fans in the house; or, to come on the road and see over half the house IWU. Yes, like you and many others, I too was looking forward to the IWU/Point match-up last year.
After Quandt was PACKED last year for the Sectional, I can't imagine what it would have been like if IWU had gotten past Hanover. There were quite a few people who wanted tickets but couldn't get them (truly a sell-out) and people waited for hours for tickets but walked away empty handed. After some of the schools (namely Trinity and Puget Sound) turned tickets back in, most got seats, but... if IWU had made the trip, there would have been the potential for unhappy fans. I think that game could easily been played in front of 4000 (if only there was room!)
I'll be making my first trip to Salem this year...so I got on question for all the experienced ones out there. I would like to think the Final Four gets packed and sold out but I assume that is not the case. Is there any reason I should be buying a ticket early or can I just show up an get a ticket?
Quote from: PointSpecial on January 24, 2006, 04:24:40 PM
After Quandt was PACKED last year for the Sectional, I can't imagine what it would have been like if IWU had gotten past Hanover.... ut... if IWU had made the trip, there would have been the potential for unhappy fans. I think that game could easily been played in front of 4000 (if only there was room!)
You mean you think only a couple of hundred of YOUR fans would have come?! ;) ;D
augie_superfan,
It is always a good idea to get your tickets ahead of time for purposes of getting a better seat, but I'm pretty sure anyone who wants a ticket the day of the game can get in. I have been to Salem 6 times for the D3 Final Four and I've yet to see a sellout.
Here is the attendance for the last 5 national championship games, with the Final Four participants listed in order of their finish...
2005: 2877 (Stevens Point/Rochester/Calvin/York)
2004: 2374 (Stevens Point/Williams/John Carroll/Amherst)
2003: 3867 (Williams/Gustavus Adolphus/Wooster/Hampden-Sydney)
2002: 2853 (Otterbein/Elizabethtown/Carthage/Rochester)
2001: 3317 (Catholic/William Paterson/Illinois Wesleyan/Ohio Northern)
(I think the Salem Civic Center seats around 4500 for basketball? Anyone know for sure?)
That is a 5-year average of 3058...about 300 less than the Hope/Calvin attendance last week and the Wittenberg vs Wooster attendance on 12/10. And just about the number that will be at Illinois Wesleyan tomorrow for the Augustana game.
It definitely depends on how well the participating schools travel. Illinois Wesleyan and Hope probably travel as well as anyone in the country. I think Gustavus Adolphus and Wooster both had a ton of fans in Salem in 2003.
You were there, so you'd obviously know better than I (last two years were the only years I've been) but I thought I overheard one of the people working there that said 2003 had higher attendance because of Hampden-Sydney... Whenever ODAC teams have made it, there were more fans, due to proximity... the ODAC hosts the Final Four and, I believe they play their conference tournament in Salem as well.
2000 Calvin beat UW Eau Claire 3,261
1999 UW-Platteville beat Hampden-Sydney 4,461 <--- largest crowd
1998 UW-Platteville beat Hope 3,915
I saw pictures of the 1998 game, and while it wasn't completely full, there were not very many empty seats... I'd say capacity would probably be around 5,000 based on the picture.
You are correct, Point. I completely forgot about H-S...they had an enormous following there.
Not to nit pick but you have your years wrong. Hope was in Salem in 98. In that particular final four which had UWP/Hope/Wilkes and Williams.
Williams had few fans there at all, mostly parents I'd say.
Wilkes had a nice following maybe filling a section and a half.
UWP also took about a section.
Hope filled the joint. Sold out their allotment about 3 times. Took 3 full sections and a smaller one in an endzone for students. Then on Saturday, car loads drove all night to see Hope in the Championship game. A lot of tired but happy faces standing in line that day.
There also seemed to be a pretty decent local following of impartials in attendance.
I thought the years might have been wrong... I was trying to do it from things I was reading off of Salem's site, but there was a disparity between the dates for some reason... I'll check on Pat's archives and change them to be correct!
Quote from: PointSpecial on January 24, 2006, 04:24:40 PM
but... if IWU had made the trip, there would have been the potential for unhappy fans. I think that game could easily been played in front of 4000 (if only there was room!)
There were a lot of unhappy fans regardless...fans from Hanover, Trinity and Puget Sound! :D If IWU travels that well and there were a lot of Point fans that didn't make it into Quandt, we would've filled Kolf (5000, I think).
I think Salem holds about 4500.
You shouldn't have any problem buying a ticket at the gate, but like it was mentioned before, if you want a good seat, order them in advance. Point's following the first year they won it was pretty small, since the women were in the final four and the women's hockey team was in the final four all in the same weekend. Last year, Point had a pretty nice following, the largest by far compared to the other three teams.
The Salem Civic Center capacity is in the 5200 range.
And how many does the Corned Beef hold Pat?
C
Hmm, I do not have Roanoke fire marshall contacts but I would guess 400.
400... sure... as long as Jared isn't there trying to woo the ladies. If he is, that place losses business.
Hey... as an Irishman... I am torn about the semis being on St. Patrick's Day. With planned festivies later on, how am I going to celebrate in style? Might have to "hit" the town afterward (late).
Anyone want to plan on enjoying Roanoke for some good times that night?
Don't forget... Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville) will be on the road in Salem for the Final Four. As we did last year, you can expect a special pre-Final Four show on Thursday night (from the team hotel or should we try for a place in Roanoke where people can listen and drink to the good times?).
Then pre-game, intermission, and post-game reports. Make yourself known. We love the support and love to hear from those of you who made the trip and are fans of the show!!!
I am hopeful to make an appearance. Working on child care issues.
C
I've got my reservations as well.
Reminds me of a very old, very lame joke:
Customer: May I have a table for two please?
Maitre d': Certainly sir. Do you have reservations?
Customer: Yes, we do, but when you're as hungry as we are, you throw caution to the wind!
:D
Nick Charles: May we have a table in your meadow for two please?
Maitre d': Certainly sir, but be cautious, it's windy out there. Madame, will you be having our carrots and beets?
Nora Charles: No sir, I'm thirsty.
Maitre d' (to bartender): I have reservations about those two.
Hey, I'll be looking forward to seeing everyone there... I'm only staying one night. (Red eye on Thurs to place me in DC on Friday at 5am, then leaving Sat early enough after the games to make it possible for me to be at 8am communion at my old church) thus... I will definitely be out partying (in the wheaton girl sense) after the semis to make up for my short stay. I'd volunteer to hang out with you Dave McHugh, but after tuesday I'm not so sure that's a good idea. :P :D
Definitely hoping to put names to some new faces this year, so if you're going to be around, PLEASE drop me a line. :)
Alas, I fear Coach C will perpetually be the only bb HOFer I've never met, because I am not that special. *sniff*
David Collinge... hit me up with a Pm about your arrival and departure details so we can figure out a rendez-vous time!
Surely someone is willin to take a stab at the final four now? :D
Lawrence- VA Wesleyan
Amherst-Hope
Quote from: diehardfan on February 27, 2006, 12:48:14 PM
Surely someone is willin to take a stab at the final four now? :D
OK - I will throw this one out just to get the discussion going:Illinois Wesleyan, Virginia Wesleyan, Amherst and Wooster
Quote from: iwumichigander on February 27, 2006, 01:09:31 PM
Quote from: diehardfan on February 27, 2006, 12:48:14 PM
Surely someone is willin to take a stab at the final four now? :D
OK - I will throw this one out just to get the discussion going:Illinois Wesleyan, Virginia Wesleyan, Amherst and Wooster
Honestly, if IWU can play well enough to get by Carroll, I think they have as good a shot as anyone. I'm just not convinced they are going to show up. They haven't been playing their best ball of late. It would certainly be a great story if these seniors can come back and get to Salem after all the expectations.
Whitewater -- Tufts -- Va. Wesleyan -- Hope
York, DePauw, Bridgewater and Wisc. Luth.
Quote from: knightstalker on February 27, 2006, 02:10:24 PM
York, DePauw, Bridgewater and Wisc. Luth.
Oh, come on, stalker, that's a joke, right? I mean, I
know you know better than to leave us hanging as to
which York you mean! :D
Actually, the York v. York (sounds like a divorce case) matchup make me think of a little tune...that goes something...like this:
[sings] York, York, a town. 8)
I said it before, my money is on York in the first round matchup. I figured if everyone is going with the favorites, I need to go with the underdogs. I get the feeling that the consensus is that York will have a fairly easy path out of their portion of the bracket and I contend that they may not make it past the winner of the Widener/Catholic game. If they do that they have to win against the winner of the Baruch bracket. While not nationally ranked powers I know that Baruch, WPU and Scranton can play with the best teams in the Atlantic and Mid-Atlantic regions. The other half of that bracket is tough too.
Quote from: David Collinge on February 27, 2006, 02:12:40 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on February 27, 2006, 02:10:24 PM
York, DePauw, Bridgewater and Wisc. Luth.
Oh, come on, stalker, that's a joke, right? I mean, I know you know better than to leave us hanging as to which York you mean! :D
Actually, the York v. York (sounds like a divorce case) matchup make me think of a little tune...that goes something...like this:
[sings] York, York, a town. 8)
If I could only give Karma...
My picks are pretty close to iwumichigander's:
IWU, Va Wesleyan, Amherst, Hope.
There's just something about those schools with Christian roots that seem to be winners.
Plus the hope of seeing Dennie Bridges on a NYT bestseller list someday swayed me.
Or the fact that there's a "Ton Ton Balenga" on a roster somewhere.
Not to mention a $1 billion endowment, fueled by the early sales of Noah Webster's dictionaries.
Or even the inherent ludicrousness of an aviator/squirrel mascot debate...
Lets keep it three for 3 in Wisconsin...
Lawrence, VA Wes, Amherst, Wooster
I'm awful at pick ems, though I'm better at individual games if that makes sense. So I usually do my bracket as fast as possible, using a coin flip whenever I had to stop and think about a game.
And the coin says Hope beats UWW in the finals, with Amherst and York (Pa.) watching in the stands.
Last year the coin was way off. But it still will be better than me alone. :)
Devossed -
Bring in some pizza and beer, or a pint of bourbon like an old-time scribe. You're only 17 posts away! :)
As long as Fisher doesn't lay an egg in Amherst's gym again like last year, I say they have a shot :)
Quote from: knightstalker on February 27, 2006, 02:10:24 PM
York, DePauw, Bridgewater and Wisc. Luth.
If Wisconsin Lutheran loses to Hope by less than 20, I'll put them in the Final Four.
Because I'm a WIAC homer...Whitewater, Virginia Wes., Amherst and La Crosse! ??? ;D
Quote from: Old School on February 27, 2006, 09:24:42 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on February 27, 2006, 02:10:24 PM
York, DePauw, Bridgewater and Wisc. Luth.
If Wisconsin Lutheran loses to Hope by less than 20, I'll put them in the Final Four.
Naughty.
But hell, at least you can get it right.
Quote from: Wooster Booster on February 27, 2006, 06:21:17 PM
Devossed -
Bring in some pizza and beer, or a pint of bourbon like an old-time scribe. You're only 17 posts away! :)
LOL--a pint of bourbon would only go so far in warming these harsh Michigan winters. Methinks two pints would suffice.
This should be a good poll for all of you tourney lovers.
Well done, man.
lol... well, that's one way to do it! :D
Wow...
I guess we'll get to see which tournament team has the most fans that post regularly on this site... :)
I would've preferred alphabetical. lol.
Quote from: Old School on February 28, 2006, 08:28:05 PM
I would've preferred alphabetical. lol.
It's more fun to hunt.
Crap. Pat had to go and pick a Final Four that looks almost the same as mine, leaving me vulnerable to charges of plagiarism. :D
Hope beats UW-Whitewater in the championship game; Amherst knocks off Virginia Wesleyan for third place.
I think I have a different final four than most will have.
I have UW-WW, Lincoln, Amherst and my favorite non-NJAC team the Impalers of Translyvania.
I have Lincoln beating Translyvania for the title and UW-WW winning the consolation game.
I have Transylvania losing in the first round. Our brackets are going to be moving in different directions from the very beginning.
I waited until I did my pick-ems to read Pats prediction and he stole three of my final four teams. Go Impalers!
Similar to Sager's but slightly different:
Hope over Ill Wesleyan in finals.
Amherst over Va Wesleyan in 3rd place game.
I'm going with Lawrence over Hope, just because I'm sentimental for the undefeated underdogs.
VA Wesleyan over Amherst for 3rd.
I've got Wooster over Larry - with Lincoln netting 3rd.
Wooster over Amherst in one semi, Lincoln over Stout in the other. Then Wooster topping Lincoln.
However. I see Wittenberg coming out of their regional, and if Wooster gets that far (no easy chore) it won't be easy to get past the Tigers. If they don't, I'm guessing that Wittenberg will win it all.
Only time will tell if there's a dominant team out there or if, as I suspect, there are about a dozen teams (or more) capable of winning this thing. If that's the case, you could play it over and over and get a different final four every time.
Wooster Booster:
I thought you had Lincoln beating Wooster in your simulation. Did you modify the program? ;D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 02, 2006, 06:58:50 AM
Crap. Pat had to go and pick a Final Four that looks almost the same as mine, leaving me vulnerable to charges of plagiarism. :D
Hope beats UW-Whitewater in the championship game; Amherst knocks off Virginia Wesleyan for third place.
Curious...how successful has Pat been at picking past tournaments? This honestly is not a knock...I'm just curious how he has done?
Quote from: njlincolnlion on March 02, 2006, 03:56:34 PM
Wooster Booster:
I thought you had Lincoln beating Wooster in your simulation. Did you modify the program? ;D
Actually, I did work on modifying it with the help of the guy who created it. Then, it went and had Lake Erie knock off Wittenberg, followed by Randolph-Macon edging out Wooster. I'm now convinced that it knows as little about DIII basketball as I do, so I made my own picks. :-)
Good luck to Lincoln. I just can't wait until this whole things starts!
Hey, I picked RMC over Wooster.
Wooster Booster:
Go Luck to Wooster, except if you guys play my Lincoln Lions. ;D .
Hoops Fan:
How far do you have Lincoln going, and who are you picking to beat them?
I've got them going down to VA Wesleyan. I've said it before, the two ODAC teams were the only ones in the East I would have picked over Lincoln, they just got the bum deal of drawing them so early. If it was CMU instead, I'd have Lincoln in the final four.
Hoops Fan:
I see........................ I think Lincoln Va. Wesleyan will be a great game, barring any early round upsets. Call me a "homer", but I have to go with my Lions over the Marlins if they play. ;D
Jordis,
I'm almost sure that Pat picked Point to repeat last year (which they did) and I think he picked Williams to repeat the year before (which they ALMOST did... ;))
Pat's usually pretty good. Does anyone recall who won the pick'em last year?
dhf, thanks for hosting this board. :)
I know I'm a little late, but what the heck, just for the fun of it. Been working too much, and travelling to the Hope regionals.
Hope over Va Wes for the title.
Amherst over Lawrence for third.
Roughrider
Well, my final four all survived the first weekend. I guess that's step one. A bunch of tough match-ups coming up for them though.
IWU-Lawrence, Hope-Wittenberg, Amherst-Tufts, VA Wesleyan-Lincoln.
I wouldn't be suprised if the final four rep came from those games no matter the outcomes.
Nobody can accuse me of having my finger on the pulse of Illinois Wesleyan. I predicted that they would win the CCIW postseason tourney, and they lost. Then I predicted that they'd lose to UW-Whitewater, whom I had as my national runner-up, but they won instead.
And although I had Augustana advancing to the Elite Eight in my picks, I was ready to throw them overboard on Saturday when it looked as though they'd have to face UW-Stout without starting PG and sparkplug Drew Wessels, who spent the weekend fighting off a high fever. Turns out that the Doggies didn't need Wessels to win that game after all.
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
Let's hope so. Sure, I picked all four of those teams as well, but its better for everybody to have the unexpected happen.
Lincoln vs Mississippi College in the final anyone?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Nobody can accuse me of having my finger on the pulse of Illinois Wesleyan. I predicted that they would win the CCIW postseason tourney, and they lost. Then I predicted that they'd lose to UW-Whitewater, whom I had as my national runner-up, but they won instead.
And although I had Augustana advancing to the Elite Eight in my picks, I was ready to throw them overboard on Saturday when it looked as though they'd have to face UW-Stout without starting PG and sparkplug Drew Wessels, who spent the weekend fighting off a high fever. Turns out that the Doggies didn't need Wessels to win that game after all.
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
As long as you don't pick Utica College for any of your prognosticating, I'll be a happy guy :D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
Shoot. Did you pick Wooster over Tranny, too, Greg? ;)
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 07, 2006, 09:39:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
Shoot. Did you pick Wooster over Tranny, too, Greg? ;)
I think it's "Transy." A "Tranny" is a different thing all together. :D
Hoops Fan:
I'll go with a Lincoln - Mississippi College final. ;D
Quote from: dansand on March 07, 2006, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 07, 2006, 09:39:07 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 07, 2006, 07:25:08 AM
Given my current prognosticating slump, I would tremble if I were a fan of Hope, Amherst, or Virginia Wesleyan.
Shoot. Did you pick Wooster over Tranny, too, Greg? ;)
I think it's "Transy." A "Tranny" is a different thing all together. :D
I'm glad somebody touched that one first. Out here around NY tranny is definitely something complete different and I don't mean transmission.
Quote from: budcrew08 on March 07, 2006, 09:17:10 AMAs long as you don't pick Utica College for any of your prognosticating, I'll be a happy guy :D
Seeing as how I took AP courses from Syracuse University when I was in high school, I suppose that I should actually be riding shotgun on the Utica bandwagon*. Dunno why I haven't climbed aboard yet. Must be because I have too many bad memories of drinking Utica Club in high school. (If there was a puking smiley available, I'd put one after that last sentence.)
*The undergraduate section of Utica College serves as a branch campus of Syracuse University, and grants SU baccalaureate degrees.
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 07, 2006, 09:39:07 AMShoot. Did you pick Wooster over Tranny, too, Greg? ;)
I did pick Wooster over Transylvania, WooBoo. I had your Scots making it to the Elite Eight before losing to Hope. Sorry about that. But, my earlier post aside, I'm actually doing fairly well in Pat's contest at the moment. UWW is my most glaring misstep.
Quote from: dansand on March 07, 2006, 05:28:51 PMI think it's "Transy." A "Tranny" is a different thing all together. :D
And a tranny is a different thing in the altogether, too. :D
There was a time when I tried really hard to get people calling them Tranny, but I gave up in the off-season last year. Now that I have help, maybe I will start again. It's just hilarious.
I'm sure there has been an occasional tranny at the final four; one on the court would just be all that much better.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 08, 2006, 09:34:19 AM
There was a time when I tried really hard to get people calling them Tranny, but I gave up in the off-season last year. Now that I have help, maybe I will start again. It's just hilarious.
I'm sure there has been an occasional tranny at the final four; one on the court would just be all that much better.
Which would make the nickname the Impalers even funnier. ::)
Quote from: knightstalker on March 08, 2006, 09:52:26 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 08, 2006, 09:34:19 AM
There was a time when I tried really hard to get people calling them Tranny, but I gave up in the off-season last year. Now that I have help, maybe I will start again. It's just hilarious.
I'm sure there has been an occasional tranny at the final four; one on the court would just be all that much better.
Which would make the nickname the Impalers even funnier. ::)
That might have gone too far.
I like it!
Final Four as I see it:
IWU vs. UPS: maybe this is a trick question, but IWU already won (Dec. 29) by 17 on a 'neutral' west-coast venue; this will be a 'neutral' virtually-a-home-game venue. IWU, perhaps by a lot.
Virginia Wesleyan vs. William Patterson: VW has the better record and was in the top 25 all season; WP has been toughened by playing in a much better top-to-bottom (or NEAR bottom, I forgot about Camden!) conference. I think this is essentially a toss-up, but give a slight nod to VaWes.
Amherst vs. SJF: Amherst has a slightly better resord, plays a distinctly better schedule - it's Amherst.
Transylvania vs. Witt: Transy has an incredible victims list to get this far, but so does Witt. I've got to go with the home team on this one.
ONCE IN SALEM:
IF IWU makes it, I have to think they are a serious favorite over either VW or WP.
IF Witt makes it, I have to think they are a serious favorite over SJF, and a slight favorite over Amherst.
OK, so WITT vs. IWU?
I'd rate this just about a toss-up, but since I bleed green, IWU!!! ;D
Mr. Y, no such talk until the games have concluded tomorrow night.
If William Patterson has Horace Jenkins still on their roster, they might have the edge.
Incredible return from the beyond by IWU tonight. Let's hope they can repeat history and take care of UPS.
Quote from: titanhammer on March 11, 2006, 12:26:32 AM
Mr. Y, no such talk until the games have concluded tomorrow night.
If William Patterson has Horace Jenkins still on their roster, they might have the edge.
Incredible return from the beyond by IWU tonight. Let's hope they can repeat history and take care of UPS.
If WP has Horace Jenkins on their roster, they have the HUGE edge! (Were you on the team that faced them?)
You're probably correct that I am a day premature - but any dissention on either final 4, or what happens after that?
I think the Midwest game tonight will be cliser than you think.
Sure, IWU is finally playing at the level we've expected all year, but UPS has to have improved considerably to be able to defeat Augustana like they did last night. I do think IWU will win, but I'm guessing it will be closer than you implied.
Oh, and about the IWU resurrgence of sorts (sad we have to call it that for a team that's been in the top 12 all year), but it seems to me to have an easy explanation. IWU has been playing with a ton of pressure since day one. I don't think that pressure is gone, in fact it has probably increased, however, now every one of their opponents also has the pressure of the NCAA tournament to contend with and no one has more high-pressure experience than IWU.
Nice circular logic; even if I do say so myself.
Nosferatu U has been suprising people all tournament long; I wouldn't count them out just yet either.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 11, 2006, 01:03:23 AM
If WP has Horace Jenkins on their roster, they have the HUGE edge! (Were you on the team that faced them?)
My last game was ten years prior to when the Titans faced WP and Horace Jenkins.
Speaking of Jenkins, wasn't he in the dunk contest that year with the D1 guys? Have there been any other D3 guys in the slam dunk contest or three point shoot out?
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 11, 2006, 12:13:22 AM
Final Four as I see it:
Transylvania vs. Witt: Transy has an incredible victims list to get this far, but so does Witt. I've got to go with the home team on this one.
Witt's victim's list includes Transy at Transy earlier this season.
Jenkins was in the dunk contest one year. I would not overlook WPU getting to the final four, they are only allowing 46 points a game so far. This may be Jose Rembibas finest coaching job this season. He has no real star player, they are not real big. They are athletic and defensive minded. I forget where I read it, maybe on here somewhere but one WPU player was quoted as saying something close to this: you don't have to be a great player to play great defense.
Quote from: titanhammer on March 11, 2006, 12:26:32 AM
If William Patterson has Horace Jenkins still on their roster, they might have the edge.
If Jenkins was on the team... it would be a completely different mindset and game plan for the Pioneers. They are very defensive minded squad (three NCAA games, three teams held under 50 points and 35% shooting), but with Jenkins it was more about the offense.
I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Jenkins was also five years ago :).
They probably would prefer oranges anyway. More in keeping with the school colors. :)
Quote from: d-mac on March 11, 2006, 03:40:44 PM
I think you are comparing apples to oranges. Jenkins was also five years ago :).
I wasn't comparing anything: just throwing a former Salem attendee out there. I have not followed WP whatsoever this year.
Can someone check on this: who scored more during the first three games, Myrick or WPU's opponents? I bet the opponents, but its probably pretty close.
WPU has only given up 139 so far I believe.
Myrick scored only 112 through the first three games.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 07:46:37 PM
Myrick scored only 112 through the first three games.
only? ???
WPU 23, VWC 19 at the half.
Witt's in.
Wittenberg
Amherst
Virginia Wesleyan
and
We're still waiting on the final team UPS 49 IWU 48 at the half.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 11, 2006, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 07:46:37 PM
Myrick scored only 112 through the first three games.
only? ???
My thoughts exactly Ralph! :o
(Sticks tongue out at Hoops Fan) :P
Quote from: diehardfan on March 11, 2006, 09:00:18 PM
(Sticks tongue out at Hoops Fan) :P
I'm a married man, April; keep that tongue to yourself.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 11, 2006, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 11, 2006, 07:55:39 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 07:46:37 PM
Myrick scored only 112 through the first three games.
only? ???
My thoughts exactly Ralph! :o
(Sticks tongue out at Hoops Fan) :P
In defense of Hoops Fan, he was responding to a question as to whether Myrick alone had out-scored WP's opponents (who were listed at 139, but I've got 138). Either way, Myrick had 'only' 112.
But I'd say that is commendably close to 138! ;)
BTW, WP exactly matched their previous defensive numbers - 46 a game. But it is helpful if YOU score more than 46! ;D
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 09:04:18 PM
Quote from: diehardfan on March 11, 2006, 09:00:18 PM
(Sticks tongue out at Hoops Fan) :P
I'm a married man, April; keep that tongue to yourself.
::) Oh man, can I add you to the extremely extensive list of arrogant guys I know. :D
Quote from: diehardfan on March 11, 2006, 09:10:10 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 09:04:18 PM
Quote from: diehardfan on March 11, 2006, 09:00:18 PM
(Sticks tongue out at Hoops Fan) :P
I'm a married man, April; keep that tongue to yourself.
::) Oh man, can I add you to the extremely extensive list of arrogant guys I know. :D
No. Although you can add me to the list of people who really like to get the last word in and the list of people who try too hard to be funny.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 11, 2006, 10:04:21 PM
[No. Although you can add me to the list of people who really like to get the last word in...
Not possible, my friend, not possible. I am waaay too stubborn! ;D
Whatever you say, Ma'am.
Can we safely predict that the next 386 posts will be from dhf and hf, each getting in the last word?! ;D
Yeah; that might be accurate.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 11, 2006, 10:13:14 PM
Can we safely predict that the next 386 posts will be from dhf and hf, each getting in the last word?! ;D
I don't know... if the other person just says dumb stuff to keep the conversation going, doesn't the first person win by default? :D ;D
Well I'm so glad you're ready to conceed defeat. Unexpected, but a pleasant suprise.
::)
The biggest loser is the one that does even realize that he has already lost. :P
Should be a great FINAL 4, good luck to all teams.
To horn in on dhf and hf each getting in the final word (!), this Final Four will be the #3 (Witt), #4 (Amherst), #7 (Va Wesleyan), and #11 (IllWesleyan) ranked teams in the final regular season poll. Anyone feel up to checking if this a record for the highest low-ranking final four team (or highest average ranking)? My hunch is that there has always been a final four team below #11, and that the average of 6.25 is a new high.
Interesting that the lowest ranked team (#11 IWU) seems to be considered the favorite on every board I've checked - perhaps only the co-favorite on the NCAC board.
My rankings had it:
2 - Witt
6 - Amherst
15 - IWU
20 - Va. Wesleyan
Hey, all joking aside, I would really really appreciate it if the jokes didn't go in that direction again. I've been trying really hard not to let the original comment bother me, but I just can't help it.
I know that you didn't mean anything at all Hoops Fan, and I know you know that I think a lot of you as an adept poster on these boards. I'm well aware that most of the regulars will just laugh at it and move on. However, at the heart of the matter, jokes like that are seriously damaging to my attempts to be respected as a basketball analyst and fan on a board full of men.
I'm definitely female, and I like my gender. I have no intrinsic problems with being thought of as a girl. I like baking, knitting, fixing my hair, wearing heels, holding babies, all that. But I am a lot more than that. I'm a scientist, a huge sports fan, and passionate about social justice. I look at the way many woman act these days, and I am in a constant state of feeling sorry for them, or revolted by them.
I maintain friendships with numerous guys on posting up, which I have come to value more than I could express over the years. Many of the guys think of me as a kid sister, or a long lost granddaughter, and I really value that. Comments like this, or the date comments a few weeks back, make me feel very awkward... if I can't joke with you guys and be joked back with on equal terms, without posts going in that direction, I don't know how I can comfortably joke around and be friends with you guys, especially married guys, without feeling like a whore. If I'm treated differently, if there are jokes that can only be directed at me, any subsequent comments I make come off as flirting, when they are meant to be nothing but friendly ribbing. If I use any of these faces in a post, :-* ;) :P, it shouldn't mean anything different than it does when any guy uses them while conversing with one of their buddies here.
Posting up has really gotten frustrating lately, my frustration right now only minimally has anything to do with you. There were all sorts of comments recently about how great strip clubs are, there were comments about how the Hope College women's coach should move up in the world by becoming the men's coach, the regular cheerleaders comments... the list goes on and on. I am the furthest thing from a feminist, but aside from making many of you guys sound rather crude, a lot of what is said here makes me feel like I am just not worth very much.
As long as I post here, I suppose the random "I am hitting on you in really poor and obvious ways" emails that I get from posters will continue. And while it's somewhat silly and annoying, it's nothing like being treated like a random chick by people whom I care about and trust.
I don't know, perhaps my expectations for what the world should be like are unrealistic, but they are sort of necessary to convince me that there is any point to me being here and posting my thoughts. :-\
Sigh... it's days like this I wish I never revealed my identity.
...and now back to your regularly scheduled final four discussion. :-\
April,
That may well be the single best post you have ever made.
I'll take issue with just one statement: "I am the furthest thing from a feminist..." - no, April, you ARE a feminist in the original sense of the term (before 'gender feminists' stole the term from 'equity feminists'). In the original (and, in my view, correct) meaning of the term, gender shouldn't matter in areas where gender shouldn't matter! The quality of your opinions about (or knowledge about) either men's or women's bball should have nothing to do with whether you are male or female. They should be judged by their logic, supporting evidence, coherency, etc., not by the gender of the person offering the opinion. Sorry to inform you, but in the CORRECT (by my view) sense of the term, you are a feminist! ;D
I hope I speak for the over-whelming majority of posters when I say we don't care whether you are male or female, black or white (or Korean!), Republican or Democrat, former player or hopeless trip-over-my-own-feet - did your POST make sense, and could/did you support it?
Well WPU held VA Wesleyan to the same number of points they are averaging per game. Too bad they only scored thirty-five points.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 12, 2006, 12:15:14 AM...a lot of what is said here makes me feel like I am just not worth very much.
diehardfan - To paraphrase an excerpt from your post, a lot of what you just said here makes me feel that you are worth a whole lot.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 12, 2006, 12:15:14 AM...I don't know, perhaps my expectations for what the world should be like are unrealistic, but they are sort of necessary to convince me that there is any point to me being here and posting my thoughts. :-\
Please do not go away. Your posts regarding both basketball and life are among the very best on this forum. And if you have lofty - but perhaps unrealistic - expectations for the world, my feelings are that if more people had those same expectations maybe they wouldn't be so unrealistic.
About that knitting, though... :)
Jack
Last night I posed the question whether this was the strongest final four ever in terms of the final regular season poll. No one took the bait, so I just confirmed that Yes, this is the strongest field since the poll began!
In terms of the lowest ranked team, #11 IWU beats out #13 JCU in 2004; in every other year there was a team ranked #17 or below.
In terms of average ranking of the four teams, this year's 6.25 edges out 2002 and 2004 which each averaged 7.25. By this measure, the weakest field was the first (2000) - Champion Calvin came in ranked #1, but the other three were 15th, 19th, and 21st, though they barely nosed out last year with champion UWSP entering as #1, but the others at 14, 19, and 21.
One curiosity - don't finish 2nd in the final regular season poll! Four #1 teams have made the FF, with Calvin (2000) and UWSP (2005) winning it all; Witt is the third #3 to make it (with Williams winning it all in 2003), and Amherst is the third #4 (with no winners yet), but no #2 has ever yet made it to the final four!
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 12, 2006, 04:50:23 PM
Last night I posed the question whether this was the strongest final four ever in terms of the final regular season poll. No one took the bait, so I just confirmed that Yes, this is the strongest field since the poll began!
In terms of the lowest ranked team, #11 IWU beats out #13 JCU in 2004; in every other year there was a team ranked #17 or below.
In terms of average ranking of the four teams, this year's 6.25 edges out 2002 and 2004 which each averaged 7.25. By this measure, the weakest field was the first (2000) - Champion Calvin came in ranked #1, but the other three were 15th, 19th, and 21st, though they barely nosed out last year with champion UWSP entering as #1, but the others at 14, 19, and 21.
One curiosity - don't finish 2nd in the final regular season poll! Four #1 teams have made the FF, with Calvin (2000) and UWSP (2005) winning it all; Witt is the third #3 to make it (with Williams winning it all in 2003), and Amherst is the third #4 (with no winners yet), but no #2 has ever yet made it to the final four!
I have to believe that the strong field is due to the extra Pool C bids. The extra Pool C bids winnowed the weaker teams in the Process. The Cinderellas (Lincoln, Transy, Miss Coll, SJF, perchance Lawrence?) were finally caught by the clock!
A top 25 is one assessment of strength. The Pool A criteria by which the tourney brackets are populated is another. The Pool C process with the extra bids seems to brought worthy teams to the tourney and the Final Four.
I don't doubt that every fanatic could make the case that they should have been here.
There is also a fairly large random element that runs through these big tournaments. If one were to replay the whole thing, making some changes in locale and happenstance, chances are you'd have two, three, or even four different teams making it to the final four.
First of all, if you were to move some of the first and second round locations to schools that could just as easily have been chosen as hosts, that would likely have tipped some games in other directions.
The same with sectionals. Had Wittenberg had to travel and play at Hope would they be going to Salem? Maybe, but maybe not.
And then there were just some very close games that could have gone either way. Play those again, and it's just as likely that the actual loser would come out on top. Amherst had to go to OT to win over Tufts. Lincoln lost to Virginia Wesleyan on a buzzer-beater. That's what makes sports interesting, but not only unpredictable but often unanalyzable.
And who knows if the final four actually comprises the best four teams, even considering the possible disparity of the original draw? The only way, in my mind, to judge which of two evenly matched teams is better would be for them to play a long series of games against each other. A series of indeterminate length, where one team would have to take a ten-game edge to win. Otherwise, there would still be doubt.
Some Final Four matchup notes:
http://www.iwuhoops.com/TOURN06.HTM
Looks like the marquis players are...
Perimeter
Keelan Amelianovich (6-6/210, Sr), IWU - 18.2 ppg, 90-195 3-pt (.462)
John Bedford (6-3/195, Sr), Amherst - 17.3 ppg, 45-96 3-pt (.469)
Dan Wheeler (6-5/218, Jr), Amherst - 14.5 ppg, 67-151 3-pt (.444)
Adam Dauksas (6-3/190, Sr), IWU - 14.3 ppg, 6.5 apg, 2.6 A/T.O.
Marques Fitch (6-0/165, Sr), VWC - 12.2 ppg, 25-91 3-pt (.295)
Ton Ton Balenga (6-1/190, So), VWC - 12.2 ppg, 56-131 3-pt (.427)
Low post
Brandon Adair (6-5/205, Jr), VWC - 18.4 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 231-371 FG (.623)
Zach Freeman (6-7/210, Jr), IWU - 15.8 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 165-284 FG (.581)
Dan Russ (6-9/210, Sr), Witt - 15.0 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 189-338 FG (.559)
Dane Borchers (6-8/215, Sr), Witt - 12.6 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 152-239 FG (.636)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 12, 2006, 05:07:27 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 12, 2006, 04:50:23 PM
Last night I posed the question whether this was the strongest final four ever in terms of the final regular season poll. No one took the bait, so I just confirmed that Yes, this is the strongest field since the poll began!
In terms of the lowest ranked team, #11 IWU beats out #13 JCU in 2004; in every other year there was a team ranked #17 or below.
In terms of average ranking of the four teams, this year's 6.25 edges out 2002 and 2004 which each averaged 7.25. By this measure, the weakest field was the first (2000) - Champion Calvin came in ranked #1, but the other three were 15th, 19th, and 21st, though they barely nosed out last year with champion UWSP entering as #1, but the others at 14, 19, and 21.
One curiosity - don't finish 2nd in the final regular season poll! Four #1 teams have made the FF, with Calvin (2000) and UWSP (2005) winning it all; Witt is the third #3 to make it (with Williams winning it all in 2003), and Amherst is the third #4 (with no winners yet), but no #2 has ever yet made it to the final four!
I have to believe that the strong field is due to the extra Pool C bids.
Pool C Illinois Wesleyan was about #13 or #14 on the Pool C list (of 18)...I think it is very safe to say that last year, with 8 Pool C's, IWU wouldn't have made the tournament.
On the women's side, HSU benefited as well.
The Cowgirls lost their point guard on Feb 9th when they had a record of 19-2. They lost 3 of the next 4 incliding the Quarterfinals in the ASC Tourney. I calcuated that they were about the #17th or #18th of the 21 Pool C bids.
They retooled and made the run.
Q, I think you're absolutely correct that IWU would not have made the field with last year's number of Cs.
Of course, that might have made the FF even stronger in terms of the poll, since #1 Lawrence would quite likely be there instead! ;)
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 12, 2006, 09:09:49 AM
About that knitting, though... :)
Ha, you've seen me knitting before a game, haven't you? :-[ Hmm... either that or you want a scarf or blanket? :D
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 12, 2006, 05:07:27 PM
I have to believe that the strong field is due to the extra Pool C bids. The extra Pool C bids winnowed the weaker teams in the Process. The Cinderellas (Lincoln, Transy, Miss Coll, SJF, perchance Lawrence?) were finally caught by the clock!
Ralph, while I certainly agree with the concept in general, I gotta believe that Lawrence isn't a weaker Pool A team, weeded out in the process thanks to the extra Pool Cs this year. Lawrence was ranked #1 in the country, and aguably showed that they deserved at least a very high ranking after leading IWU by wide point spreads for all but the four minutes that really counted.
It's sorta funny you know... Lawrence had to be the favorite in the whole tournament, thanks to their ranking, incredible season, and strong showings in the tournament for the last two years. But a lot of people have been treating them like they've actually been the underdog all along. Heck, in one of those articles Q posted before their game with IWU, even
Tharp made it sound like they were the underdogs.
I gotta believe that Lawrence is pretty much even or better than most of the teams in the Final Four this year, and not so much a Cinderella as they are simply an excellent basketball program.
Perhaps all this just shows that the MWC and Lawrence still have a long way to go to make believers out of people?
The MWC this year was a league with two great teams, Lawrence (16-0 in conf) and Carroll (14-2). After that, there wasn't much at all. I don't see how it should be regarded any different than people talk about the NCAC - just two teams basically, and maybe a couple that can give the top 2 a scare, and then some really bad teams.
The MWC's teams didn't get it done in the tournament, and that is where strength is measured. Carroll lost on a neutral court to IWU (9-5 in the CCIW) 81-68 in a game it looks like IWU controlled almost the whole way. Lawrence lost at home to IWU 71-68 and couldn't protect a double digit 2nd half lead.
Last year Lawrence lost to Stevens Point 79-45. The MWC's only NCAA tournament claim to fame is the 82-81 overtime loss to Stevens Point in 2004. For top MWC teams to earn respect from the masses, at some point one is going to have to get to Salem. This year it was all set up for Lawrence - given the chance to host all the way up to Salem - and LU did not convert. And for the MWC to become what people consider a "strong league", there will need to be more than just 2 "top 25 caliber" teams.
Finally, I do not think it is fair to say "I gotta believe that Lawrence is pretty much even or better than most of the teams in the Final Four this year" because Wittenberg, Amherst, IWU, and Va Wesleyan are going to Salem while Lawrence did not get it done...at home.
augiedad,
I'm gonna have to stick up for April on this one - I think Lawrence IS fully FF worthy, just ran into a buzzsaw named IWU, seemingly FINALLY playing like the team that was once unanimously #1. Pretty much everyone agreed they had the talent to be distinctly #1; they seem to finally be playing that way. Losing by 3 (even at home) to such a team is certainly no disgrace.
Another intriguing anomaly I just noticed in the FF vs. final regular season poll comparison (again, with just six years, no doubt coincidence, but still intriguing). Of the four teams, the highest ranked has won 3 titles (#1 Calvin, #3 Williams, and #1 UWSP) while the third highest has also won 3 titles (#14 Catholic vs. 3, 11, and 17; #6 Otterbein vs. 1, 4, and 18; and #10 UWSP vs. 1, 5, and 13). Never the 2nd or 4th highest rated team. Can either Amherst or IWU break this streak?
Quote from: augiedad on March 12, 2006, 08:32:29 PM
... The MWC's only NCAA tournament claim to fame is the 82-81 overtime loss to Stevens Point in 2004. ...
Aw shucks, Augie Dad, I was hoping that you would have said that Lawrence's claim to fame was a
Sweet 16 OT win over the ASC's Sul Ross State in 2004! :-\
Quote from: diehardfan on March 12, 2006, 12:15:14 AM
Hey, all joking aside, I would really really appreciate it if the jokes didn't go in that direction again. I've been trying really hard not to let the original comment bother me, but I just can't help it.
. . .
I don't know, perhaps my expectations for what the world should be like are unrealistic, but they are sort of necessary to convince me that there is any point to me being here and posting my thoughts. :-\
. . .
Well spoken, diehardfan. :) Do not get too discouraged by ignorant remarks made by ignorant posters hiding behind the anonymity of their login names.
I am a first-year poster, but a long-time reader, so on that basis I speak from my own observations. Many regular posters, including this one, want you to know that they consider you to be:
1. Very knowledgeable about d3hoops for men and women, and that includes the conferences, the teams, the players, and the games.
2. Very articulate in your posts. They are well thought out, and clearly presented.
3. A great example of good sportsmanship.
4. Very much a lady. Your good-natured ribbing and verbal jousting are taken as that and nothing more.
5. Legendary for your home-made cookies served at Final Four events. One of these years, but not this year, I hope to have the privilege of attending and finding out for myself.
Note to all the guys on this forum—I enjoy "locker-room" camaraderie as much as the next guy, but there is a time and a place for it. Some of us would like to consider D3hoops.com a "family-friendly" site. Some of us even come into contact with future MIAA (and CCIW) players and their families, and encourage them to log on to catch some of the excitement and enjoyment that many of us find in D3hoops.com, arguably "The definitive resource" as Pat bills it.
A good rule of thumb would be that if it's not appropriate in the workplace, then it's not appropriate here either. And after all, Pat Coleman does have his standards for this site. If you don't think so, just read his "Terms of Service" posted on the home page for "Posting Up". If you push his limits too far, you just might learn what they are the hard way. My advice is don't. He has in the past, and will in the future when necessary, exercise the options he warns about.
Note to Mr. Ypsi and Wooster Booster, thank you for speaking up on behalf of diehardfan. Perhaps if more of us followed your example and stood up for what was right, then the world, and this board, would be a better place for it.
Again, do not be discouraged, diehardfan. You and your posts are very much appreciated on this board. :)
Roughrider
And now back to the Final Four . . . . Two of my original picks are gone. For those of us who are similarly disadvantaged, what say we start a new round of picks, given the final four as they are. My new picks this week are as follows.
Witt over IWU for the title. The Tigers found a way to get past #2 Hope.
VaWes? Amherst? VaWes? Amherst? OK, VaWes over Amherst for third. Ton Ton Balenga, need I say more?
Roughrider
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 12, 2006, 08:54:07 PM
I'm gonna have to stick up for April on this one - I think Lawrence IS fully FF worthy...
I completely agree. Lawrence led most of this game! From 18:43 to go in the first half until 4:22 to go in the game, LU was leading, by as much as 15, and by 10, as late as 7:03. Lawrence was in control of the game... and then IWU made their charge. I saw IWU play in the first round, and they are a very capable team (obviously). I've seen Lawrence play in the past, and they're capable, both on a talent level, and simply by the fact that they held a lead against a talented squad like IWU.
I think this game is very similar to the UWSP/Trinity game last year, and the UWSP/LU game two years go. On those particular nights, neither team was going to let up... the game had to be grasped from the grip of defeat. I think it's the sort of game that would be very even, if played 10 times.
I give Tharp lots of credit for preparing his players. They shot 72% in the first half! This is eerily similar to 2 years ago... LU shot 62% out in Tacoma, hitting 8 of 10 three point shots.
IWU has faced some tough tests. This year's Final Four looks like it will be very entertaining!
Quote from: Coach C on January 24, 2006, 09:59:08 AM
Diehardfan -
Here are my guesses on your questions.
1) Given the NCAA's seeding tendencies, at least one team that has no business there will make the final four having beaten a series of overmatched opponents
2) At least one team now ranked in the top 5 will be there.
3) My guess is that the Ohio or Wisconsin conferences will also be represented.
4)I think that 2 of the 4 will be Pool C teams.
Just my 2 cents.
C
1) possibly check
2) Week 8 Poll: #1 Wittenberg, #5 Illinois Wesleyan, check
3) Ohio, check, Wisconsin, nope (though it sure seemed likely)
4) IWU = C, check, and... hmm... it was only one this year. Interesting.
Not bad for guesses two months in advance! :)
You gotta love the fact that the top three teams getting votes didn't even make the elite eight. :D
Or not. :'(
well it has been an interesting 2 weeks!
C
Diehard -
Thanks for remembering!
C
Amherst and VAWes only got one vote each. They are the only two of my final four teams left, but sadly, I had both losing in the semis, so my bracket is already done.
I'll agree with most of what augiedad has said. But, Lawrence is definitely Final Four material. They play great defense, solid motion-offense and are very patient, qualities that got Point two championships. But, IWU is destined, IMO.
I do think the MWC as a whole is not very good. The past couple of years it's been Lawrence and Carroll and Ripon to a lesser extent. But, none of them has done major damage in the NCAA tourney and the LU/Carroll faithful can't complain about being in the Midwest/West regions and cry, "if only we were in the South/East or whatever regions. Point had to come out of those regions, IWU had to do it this year, all on the road. That's how great teams are measured. Lawrence and Carroll are very good teams, but the MWC (with those two teams) still can't be compared to other "two-team" conferences that include Hope/Calvin, Wooster/Wittenberg or even Randolph-Macon/Hampden-Sydney (with a little Virginia Wesleyan in the mix ;D) because they've had sustained success in the NCAA tourney, something that Lawrence and Carroll have not.
I have all the respect for Lawrence (I've seen them half a dozen times in the last two years or so) and some for Carroll (only seen them once vs. IWU), but they have yet to get it done and that's why some posters don't think too highly of them or the MWC.
As for Tharp claiming they were the underdogs against IWU, that was just coach-speak. ::)
Is there any chance that the semis might have webcast video via Teamline or some other source? Anyone heard anything about this?
The national semifinals will have video broadcast using Penn Atlantic video and D3hoops.com audio. When I have link and details I'll post more about it.
Pat, you're making it a tough choice as to the MVP vote. diehardfan had the inside track, providing free cookies and possibly even free garments! But here you come offering free semifinal video! Now if somebody would just step up and offer free beer (delivered, of course) we'd have a horse race.
Thanks, though I'm simply the bearer of the good news -- and the commentary. Penn Atlantic is the bearer of the free video. :)
I just wanted as many DIII fans as I could know that two DIII stars, Adam Dauksas of IWU, and Kyle Witucky of Wooster are finalists for the Bob Cousy Award. The Cousy Award is given to college basketball's best point guard. Among the other finalists are Dee Brown and Gerry McNamara, so this is quite an honor. There is fan voting available at http://www.cousyaward.com. You can vote everyday.
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 13, 2006, 11:37:23 AM
Pat, you're making it a tough choice as to the MVP vote. diehardfan had the inside track, providing free cookies and possibly even free garments! But here you come offering free semifinal video! Now if somebody would just step up and offer free beer (delivered, of course) we'd have a horse race.
Oh come on, the guy is in charge of making the whole website function, and I just post random things and bake stuff. No contest! ???
There was free beer coming from a Hope fan, but they didn't make it so I guess everyone loses on that one. :-\ On the other hand, I don't really like beer, so I'm still good. ;D
Quote from: diehardfan on March 13, 2006, 04:06:48 PM
Oh come on, the guy is in charge of making the whole website function, and I just post random things and bake stuff. No contest!
Agreed. Pat is not holding up his end at all, you get the MVP. ;)
Quote from: Wooster Booster on March 13, 2006, 06:07:24 PM
Quote from: diehardfan on March 13, 2006, 04:06:48 PM
Oh come on, the guy is in charge of making the whole website function, and I just post random things and bake stuff. No contest!
Agreed. Pat is not holding up his end at all, you get the MVP. ;)
Hmmm. I haven't yet had the opportunity to try a dhf cookie :'(, but if they outweigh this entire website, them are S-O-O-O-M-E cookies! ;D
Pat Coleman will be on guest on WJBC's Sports Talk in abuot 20 minutes, at 6:10pm Central.
http://www.wjbc.com/
The "listen live" link is in the top, left corner.
I will?
Just kidding. Phone is all charged up and ready to go. Just trying to get some day-job work done before I step away from my desk.
Thought I'd post the scoop on the ticket info here, in cause anyone was wondering:
Quote from: diehardfan on March 13, 2006, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: Old School on March 13, 2006, 07:16:36 PM
Quote from: TitanFan12 on March 13, 2006, 06:09:20 PM
Does anyone know when tickets for Friday nights IWU game will go on sale at IWU?
You can just call the Salem Civic Center directly and order them,and then pick them up at Will Call...at least that has been the case in the past.
They won't be available at IWU, as far as I know. You can order tickets in one of two ways:
1) Order them from www.Ticketmaster.com, and pay all sorts of rediculous services charges.
2) Order them from the Box office at the Civic Center. The phone number is one of the many bizarre d3sports numbers programmed into my phone :-[ and it is 540-894-6022. You will still pay a service charge ($2) but it is much less than through Ticketmaster (which is $6-$7).
The second option is better, even if it wasn't less expensive. because the Civic Center knows where each school's designated fans section is, and you can request to be put in the IWU section.
You will then just need to pick up the tickets the day of the game from the will call window. The line has never been very long.
I have also picked up tickets the day of the game from the ticket booth, and gotten a great seat by requesting that the put me as close to the floor and the middle as possible. Heck, I've even gotten a good sized block of tickets just for the second day and gotten great seats that were all together when my sis and a group of friends from home decided to come down at the last second for the championship two years ago.
The Final Four, as far as I can tell, has never gotten that close to selling out. It may get closer than normal this year, with VaWes and IWU there, but I wouldn't worry too much about the tickets.
Ah yes, ticketbastard, the only way to pay $24 for an $8 seat.,
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2006, 09:23:44 AM
Ah yes, ticketbastard, the only way to pay $24 for an $8 seat.,
Yeah, and shouldn't they really be called, INconvenience charges?
I was going to go to the Tom Petty concert back in the day. It was about $29 for a lawn seat at the Marcus Ampitheater in Miwaukee, WI, $2 for taxes or something like that, $6 for service charge and then $8 for something called a building fee...those were approximate prices. I just know it was nearly $50 for a $29 ticket. What a joke.
Does anyone know if there will be a national broadcast of the DIII Final?
I've heard that CSTV is broadcasting it.
Yeah everybody talks about CSTV, but I've never met anyone who has it. Is it satelite only or regional or what?
And why doesn't CBS put it on like they do with the D-II final? There is more of an audience for d-III than d-II and we play better basketball anyway.
Hoops,
I wouldn't necessarily say that D3 is better basketball than D2. In many cases I agree, but the finalists for D2 are usually pretty solid. I saw Bryant College play last year and they made it to the finals and they were legit. Some very big post players, athletics wings and a point guard who could shoot the lights out.
As for TV, what happened to the days when the D3 finals were on ESPN?
I think d3 plays better team basketball, less of the individual stuff of the NBA and d-I. Division two still has a lot of guys who didn't get d-I scholarships and like to show off their talents. Granted the top teams play well together, but to me its just not as fun to watch as these games in Salem will inevitably be.
Hoops - CSTV is part of the sports package on Direct TV - I pay, I think, something like $13 per month and get all the Fox stations, ESPNU, CSTV, and a number of channels that cover international soccer, auto racing, hunting and fishing etc. CSTV is real and readily available. If you are close to St Louis, you're welcome to visit and watch!!!! (Wish the ladies game was on too) (Especially if Hope is playing)
Someone help Hoops!!!!!
I am in KC, so its not too far, but I'm fine listening to Q on the internet. It worked quite well last weekend and I never appreciated basketball as much until I listened to radio. I've done that for baseball, but never before for basketball, it was a great experience.
This is the 11th year the Final Four has been in Salem. 29 schools have been there...
Illinois Wesleyan 4
Williams 4
Amherst 2
Calvin 2
Franklin & Marshall 2
Hampden-Sydney 2
Hope 2
Rochester 2
UW-Platteville 2
UW-Stevens Point 2
William Paterson 2
Alvernia 1
Carthage 1
Catholic 1
Connecticut College 1
Elizabethtown 1
Gustavus Adolphus 1
John Carroll 1
Nebraska Wesleyan 1
Ohio Northern 1
Otterbein 1
Rowan 1
Salem St 1
UW-Eau Claire 1
Virginia Wesleyan 1
Wilkes 1
Wittenberg 1
Wooster 1
York (Pa) 1
Leading conferences:
NESCAC: 6
CCIW: 5
WIAC: 5
MIAA: 4
I actually prefer my game broadcast to the "radio-like" rather than the way that televison has taken the audio portion of the telecast.
I don't know if younger posters will understand that distinction, but my dearly departed father and I would listen to numerous sporting events on the radio..."Field of Dreams" type stuff..."You wanna have a catch?" :'(
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2006, 04:39:38 PM
I am in KC, so its not too far, but I'm fine listening to Q on the internet. It worked quite well last weekend and I never appreciated basketball as much until I listened to radio. I've done that for baseball, but never before for basketball, it was a great experience.
You're assuming Q is doing the title game. We'll be doing the title game for sure. :)
well shoot hoops, my daughter and son in law are in KC - she works for Johnson County - next time I go over for a visit, maybe we can get together for lunch or some such!!!! Is the NAIA tourney still in KC - if so, do you go?
I was just scanning the poll above - only 10 of 50 voters are still alive. 5 for IWU, 3 for Witt, 1 each for Va Wes and Amherst.
In my mind, that distribution of votes is also roughly the odds of winning this weekend. ;)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2006, 06:05:49 PM
I actually prefer my game broadcast to the "radio-like" rather than the way that televison has taken the audio portion of the telecast.
I don't know if younger posters will understand that distinction, but my dearly departed father and I would listen to numerous sporting events on the radio..."Field of Dreams" type stuff..."You wanna have a catch?" :'(
Ralph, I couldn't agree with you more. I've always felt that it's the radio broadcaster's job to paint a picture of the action in the listener's mind. I'll probably listen to a radio-style broadcast if I can find a link. Do you know if D3hoops.com will have a link to a radio broadcast Friday or Saturday?
I may be dating myself, but I remember listening to the radio drama "The Shadow", with Lamont Cranston, between games of major-league doubleheaders, back in the day when such doubleheaders were a common thing on Sundays. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows."
As much as I love radio though, I did have the absolute thrill of being an amateur television sportscaster for local high school events on our local public access station for several years, working with video-classroom-course students as my color commentators and camera operators. Quite a change from my day job, and a life-long fantasy.
Roughrider
Roughrider, then you understand the quality of audio commentary that I like in the my video/television productions. :)
I love seeing the play myself. I love watching the game and listening to the radio announcer simultaneously.
Quote from: Roughrider on March 14, 2006, 10:14:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2006, 06:05:49 PM
I actually prefer my game broadcast to the "radio-like" rather than the way that televison has taken the audio portion of the telecast.
I don't know if younger posters will understand that distinction, but my dearly departed father and I would listen to numerous sporting events on the radio..."Field of Dreams" type stuff..."You wanna have a catch?" :'(
Ralph, I couldn't agree with you more. I've always felt that it's the radio broadcaster's job to paint a picture of the action in the listener's mind. I'll probably listen to a radio-style broadcast if I can find a link. Do you know if D3hoops.com will have a link to a radio broadcast Friday or Saturday?
Yep, as always we'll have audio from both Final Fours broadcast online.
Is there a poll on the DIII final four anywhere on these boards?
I need somewhere to cast my vote for the Tigers. :)
Thanks.
Just in case anyone's chomping at the bit for these basketball games to get going and needs to listen to SOME DIII action, the Wooster-Rowan baseball game is being audio webcast right now (7 PM) here:
http://www.wooster.edu/interactive/
This is the number 1 ranked team against number 5.
Thanks for the poll. I have duly recorded my vote.
Can somebody post off the top of their head what conferences the other 3 teams besides Witt are from? I will look it up in the meantime to see if there are any other discussion boards the final four is being discussed on.
Thanks also for the baseball post. I like a good game even without a rooting interest.
Quote from: Roughrider on March 14, 2006, 10:14:53 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2006, 06:05:49 PM
I actually prefer my game broadcast to the "radio-like" rather than the way that televison has taken the audio portion of the telecast.
I don't know if younger posters will understand that distinction, but my dearly departed father and I would listen to numerous sporting events on the radio..."Field of Dreams" type stuff..."You wanna have a catch?" :'(
Ralph, I couldn't agree with you more. I've always felt that it's the radio broadcaster's job to paint a picture of the action in the listener's mind. I'll probably listen to a radio-style broadcast if I can find a link. Do you know if D3hoops.com will have a link to a radio broadcast Friday or Saturday?
I may be dating myself, but I remember listening to the radio drama "The Shadow", with Lamont Cranston, between games of major-league doubleheaders, back in the day when such doubleheaders were a common thing on Sundays. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows."
As much as I love radio though, I did have the absolute thrill of being an amateur television sportscaster for local high school events on our local public access station for several years, working with video-classroom-course students as my color commentators and camera operators. Quite a change from my day job, and a life-long fantasy.
Roughrider
I like the radio broadcasts as well. TV has too many replays and features going on to concentrate on the game.
Fox seems to show a replay between every pitch on a baseball game for example.
However, I would like to see a little feature every now and then showing the academic transcript of a DI player or team. Now, that would be interesting.
Quote from: TigerFan_1973 on March 15, 2006, 07:05:40 PM
Thanks for the poll. I have duly recorded my vote.
Can somebody post off the top of their head what conferences the other 3 teams besides Witt are from? I will look it up in the meantime to see if there are any other discussion boards the final four is being discussed on.
Thanks also for the baseball post. I like a good game even without a rooting interest.
Amherst: NESCAC (Northeast region)
Ill. Wesleyan: CCIW (Midwest)
Va. Wesleyan: ODAC (South)
Examining at the transcripts of certain D1 players might not be a pleasant experience.
E.g., the NCAA is currently taking a look at two Memphis basketballers who have "diplomas" from Lutheran Christian Academy in Philadelphia, an outfit that, despite the name, has no evident denominational affiliation, is uncertified as a high school, has no campus of its own, apparently features one full-time staffer (he's the basketball coach), and has no class-attendance policy. Playing hoops seems to be the only requirement for matriculation and passing grades.
A good many D1 coaches want no part of players who "graduate" from this "school," despite their on-court abilities. Others, apparently, aren't so choosy.
More details can be had by a Google search for "Lutheran Christian Academy."
Quote from: Warren Thompson on March 15, 2006, 08:10:25 PM
Examining at the transcripts of certain D1 players might not be a pleasant experience.
E.g., the NCAA is currently taking a look at two Memphis basketballers who have "diplomas" from Lutheran Christian Academy in Philadelphia, an outfit that, despite the name, has no evident denominational affiliation, is uncertified as a high school, has no campus of its own, apparently features one full-time staffer (he's the basketball coach), and has no class-attendance policy. Playing hoops seems to be the only requirement for matriculation and passing grades.
A good many D1 coaches want no part of players who "graduate" from this "school," despite their on-court abilities. Others, apparently, aren't so choosy.
More details can be had by a Google search for "Lutheran Christian Academy."
The NY Times ran a series of articles on these so called "Prep Schools" a week or two ago, very interesting. Real prep schools that have excellent reputations are being hurt by these schools.
I was just watching ESPN and tonight's Outside the Lines documented the DIII national tournament. Lincoln and Illinois Wesleyen were the main teams followed in the piece. If anyone is up early, the piece is rebroadcast at 6:40 and 7:40 am EST tomorrow.
Quote from: hugenerd on March 16, 2006, 01:59:21 AM
I was just watching ESPN and tonight's Outside the Lines documented the DIII national tournament. Lincoln and Illinois Wesleyen were the main teams followed in the piece. If anyone is up early, the piece is rebroadcast at 6:40 and 7:40 am tomorrow.
Ditto! Definitely a good watch and good representation of all the good that DIII sports has to offer.
Also cudos to a familiar voice calling the final play of the VWU Lincoln game and a behind the scenes look and listen at the one and only Pat Cummings, doing what he do! ;D Thanks to you guys for getting all DIII sports the ESPN coverage that you do!!!!
Thanks.
They took a lot of data from us and we invested a lot of time in helping them out. Would have been nice to get a little more exposure out of it.
I saw and recognized the D3hoops homepage during the piece.
Quote from: Llamaguy on March 16, 2006, 02:05:00 AM
Ditto! Definitely a good watch and good representation of all the good that DIII sports has to offer.
Also cudos to a familiar voice calling the final play of the VWU Lincoln game and a behind the scenes look and listen at the one and only Pat Cummings, doing what he do! ;D Thanks to you guys for getting all DIII sports the ESPN coverage that you do!!!!
Edit:
a behind the HEAD look at the one and only Pat Cummings...
:) ;) :D ;D >:( :P
I liked the background split picture of 1.) a Lawrence player in action and MORE IMPORTANTLY 2.) Jack Bennett and some Pointer players celebrating the National Championship! lol.
And yeah, more D3hoops stuff would've been cool.
WITTENBERG RADIO COVERAGE
We'll be on the air at 4:30pm Friday with the "Final Four Pre-Game Show"
In addition to both head coaches, our interviews include former Tigers Matt Croci and Aaron Perry (from the '93-'94 Final Four Team).
We'll have audio highlights and player comments from Wittenberg's tournament run.
Listen live on 89.1 FM in Springfield or online at http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/broadcast/index.html
So I assume there is some restriction on broadcasting more than your own team's games. I was going to ask if any of the schools were going to air the whole thing, but I doubt that's legal.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2006, 02:13:23 AM
Thanks.
They took a lot of data from us and we invested a lot of time in helping them out. Would have been nice to get a little more exposure out of it.
All that time really showed. I thought it was a really good piece. I wish it would have been like most other OTL's that has the main story and then discussion about it afterwards, but hey, beggars can't be choosers.
Yeah, I got the feeling that they felt like they had to have something DI in there to keep people interested? ??? :-\
On my way out of the office and to the airport to catch a lovely red-eye to Virginia. See you all there! :)
Yeah, I don't think it is possible for a school to broadcast more than their own game. The NCAA doles out those rights, and they are to D3hoops.com, on behalf of NCAASports.com.
Hope you can all fire up the live video tomorrow.
What's the live video link again? Sorry. Didn't feel like going to the front page! ???
It's on the front page. :)
The Wittenberg Tigers are on the air!
Go Tigers!
Artie is wearing a large-plaid red jacket with red pants.
Well, I can't get the Wittenberg feed to work (my problem not their's; I assume this is the same reason I can't get the d3hoops feed to work...stupid dial up) and the Amherst station is broadcasting dead air.
Just my luck.
Tigers win after being down 8 with five minutes left.
How about them TIGERS
Congratulations to the Wittenberg Tigers on a great come-from-behind semi-final win at Salem. :)
Good luck tomorrow. :)
Roughrider
Final Four Audio Scorecard (Pat, if you're "listening")
Women's Games
Southern Maine--Hardin Simmons: audio very good.
Hope--Scranton: unable to get link to work. Kept getting audio commercials for d3 mens games, including Lincoln game, and Wittenberg sectional game.
Men's Games
Wittenberg--Amherst: link worked, listened to game. Audio quality very poor. First announcer's sound was OK. Second announcer sounded like microphone was in a coffee can, under a pillow, barely understandable (lot of resonance and bass). If you can, have your audio engineer do a microphone check before tomorrow's final.
IWU--Va Wes: so far unable to get link to work. Keep getting past Bowdoin--Southern Maine game.
Anyone else have similar problems, or better luck than I had? I'd like to "hear". Thanks for any more "feedback".
Roughrider
I listened to parts of all the games.
The only trouble I had was the sound going out a couple times during the pregame of the 1st women's game. And early in the game, the video went out for 30sec or so.
Otherwise everything worked great!
Congrats to both Wittenberg and Virginia Wesleyan. Good luck to both teams tomorrow night.
I Watched the Witt game tonight thanks to D3hoops. You guy to a great job. However, I am a Witt fan and you guy didn't have a good (or correct) insight into the game. It's not about the BIG TWO it's about the BIG THREE. Kenny Brady, Kenny Brady, Kenny Brady. Brady was criticized for shouting the ball when Dan and Dane where both in the game, but that happened a year long. Then Pat said that Witt didn't want Dan and Dane on the court at the same time because of the Lord Jeffs 3pt shooters. It was implied that we (Witt) could only have one on the court at a time against a team that was shooting like the Lord Jeffs' and that was why we had Hemenway playing. That is just not the case and if you watch Witt at all this season (which if you are not a Witt fan why would you) you would know that Dan and Dane are two of the best defensive player in D3. In fact Witt stopped the Lord Jeffs run because of the defensive play by Dan and Dane.
I guess my point is that I LOVE D3 Hoops and D3 FOOTBALL and know that you guys do too but, I was disappointed in the broadcasters knowledge of the team(s) playing. And more important you guys acted liked (or maybe sounded like) you know so much about these teams and your listener had no idea that at times you where way off base. However, I want to thank you for everything you guys do for D3!
Quote from: aw11 on March 17, 2006, 11:42:18 PM
That is just not the case and if you watch Witt at all this season (which if you are not a Witt fan why would you)
I saw the WIAC tourney final of Stout vs. Whitewater, I saw the Whitewater regional that included Whitewater, Carroll, Ill. Wes., and DePauw. I saw the Lawrence sectional that involved Lawrence, Ill. Wes., Augustana and Puget Sound. I saw the big early season battle that involved Lawrence vs. #2 preseason Oshkosh. I went down to WLC and saw Concordia (of Wisconsin) vs. Eau Claire and then traveled to MSOE to see them play Lawrence and then to Sheboygan to see Lakeland vs. Stevens Point all in one day. I saw two games involving NAIA teams in the Clarke Holiday Tournament. Last year I saw Ripon vs. Grinnell, among others. Can you guess who I'm a fan of? I'm a Stevens Point Pointer fan. I wouldn't need to be a fan of Wittenberg to see them play.
Regarding your previous post. Like everyone, we aren't all experts of every team. Sorry that the d3hoopsters couldn't have done a better job in your eyes.
Quote from: Old School on March 18, 2006, 12:14:38 AM
I saw...
That's quite a track record there OS... Are you aspiring to be the next April? :D
EDIT: btw, don't get me wrong... I'm jealous, I wish I could have seen all those games!
OK, first, thanks to d3hoops for supplying the video feed. Second, during the Wittenberg game your secondary announcer was the most biased announcer I have ever listened to. Every time Amherst made a big play he was screaming and yelling about how amazing it was... every time Wittenberg had a big play he pointed out how it could have been better... while, I might be exagerating a little bit, seriously, it was the most biased game calling I have ever heard. Totally annoying. Next year, let's make sure we get some neutral game calling.
Really though, I did appreciate the feed. Good work. Looking forward to tomorrow when Wittenberg wins the national championship.
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 18, 2006, 01:36:56 AM
Quote from: Old School on March 18, 2006, 12:14:38 AM
I saw...
That's quite a track record there OS... Are you aspiring to be the next April? :D
More like the old April. :D This April only saw 16 teams this year. :(
Quote from: superwittfan313 on March 18, 2006, 01:50:17 AM
OK, first, thanks to d3hoops for supplying the video feed. Second, during the Wittenberg game your secondary announcer was the most biased announcer I have ever listened to. Every time Amherst made a big play he was screaming and yelling about how amazing it was... every time Wittenberg had a big play he pointed out how it could have been better... while, I might be exagerating a little bit, seriously, it was the most biased game calling I have ever heard. Totally annoying. Next year, let's make sure we get some neutral game calling.
Really though, I did appreciate the feed. Good work. Looking forward to tomorrow when Wittenberg wins the national championship.
Superwittfan - it certainly doesn't look like you or many Witt fans have visited our site much, at least from a posting standpoint...but I can assure that neither broadcaster had a bias the Amherst/Witt game. I think you heard more bias from your own biased viewpoint than any existed. It's been known to happen before.
That secondary announcer is the editor and publisher of this website, a Catholic University graduate, and the reason you were able to watch the game with audio. Spend some more time here and you will learn more about how we cover D3.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 18, 2006, 02:01:10 AM
More like the old April. :D This April only saw 16 teams this year. :(
How many games would that be then? Unfortunately, I probably saw more games that didn't involve my beloved Pointers. Obviously I wasn't trying to brag and no one could compete with the
old April! I was just trying to point out that you don't have to be a fan of either team you're watching! She's out in Siberia, I mean, California, so seeing 16 teams is A LOT!
Hope all is well out in Salem for you April, along with all the rest of the d3hoopsters...
Here's a nugget for you: My friend sends me a text message that said,
"I'm going to the (D1) Final Four, B!tches". It didn't make me jealous at all. I sent him an email later and said I would've been more excited had it been the D3 Final Four. Go figure. ;D
Quote from: aw11 on March 17, 2006, 11:42:18 PM
I Watched the Witt game tonight thanks to D3hoops. You guy to a great job. However, I am a Witt fan and you guy didn't have a good (or correct) insight into the game. It's not about the BIG TWO it's about the BIG THREE. Kenny Brady, Kenny Brady, Kenny Brady. Brady was criticized for shouting the ball when Dan and Dane where both in the game, but that happened a year long. Then Pat said that Witt didn't want Dan and Dane on the court at the same time because of the Lord Jeffs 3pt shooters. It was implied that we (Witt) could only have one on the court at a time against a team that was shooting like the Lord Jeffs' and that was why we had Hemenway playing. That is just not the case and if you watch Witt at all this season (which if you are not a Witt fan why would you) you would know that Dan and Dane are two of the best defensive player in D3. In fact Witt stopped the Lord Jeffs run because of the defensive play by Dan and Dane.
I guess my point is that I LOVE D3 Hoops and D3 FOOTBALL and know that you guys do too but, I was disappointed in the broadcasters knowledge of the team(s) playing. And more important you guys acted liked (or maybe sounded like) you know so much about these teams and your listener had no idea that at times you where way off base. However, I want to thank you for everything you guys do for D3!
I would be interested to hear why you thought that Borchers and Russ were not on the floor at the same time during that significant stretch. I see you were eager to criticize my suggestion but did not offer an alternate theory.
Quote from: superwittfan313 on March 18, 2006, 01:50:17 AM
OK, first, thanks to d3hoops for supplying the video feed. Second, during the Wittenberg game your secondary announcer was the most biased announcer I have ever listened to. Every time Amherst made a big play he was screaming and yelling about how amazing it was... every time Wittenberg had a big play he pointed out how it could have been better... while, I might be exagerating a little bit, seriously, it was the most biased game calling I have ever heard. Totally annoying. Next year, let's make sure we get some neutral game calling.
Dunno why you would think that. I had no readon to favor Amherst over Wittenberg. In fact, since I'm interested in the credibility of our poll, one would think (if you are indeed thinking) that I would be favoring Wittenberg if anyone.
It's not being biased. It's EXACTLY neutral. However, you're so biased for your own team that I don't think you can tell the difference.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 18, 2006, 02:01:10 AM
More like the old April. :D This April only saw 16 teams this year. :(
Let's see. Not counting women's games.
Stevens Point
Cardinal Stritch
Mid-America Nazarene
Grace College
Lakeland
Edgewood
MSOE
Concordia (Wis.)
Ripon
Lawrence
Illinois Wesleyan
Carroll College
DePauw
Puget Sound
Augustana
Eau Claire
Oshkosh
Stout
Whitewater
La Crosse
River Falls
I think that's all of them.
Best teams (not named Stevens Point):
1. IWU
2. Lawrence
3. Stout
4. Puget Sound
5. Whitewater
Best Games:
1. Sectional Semi-final IWU vs. Lawrence
2. Stout at Point (2 OTs)
3. Regional Final IWU at Whitewater
Worst Game:
Concordia vs. Eau Claire at the WLC tourney (ouch!)
This was a bad year for me seeing games, I only got to see about half of NJCU's games this past season and I literally live around the corner from the J-MAC. It is those wednesday night EDB rehearsals, have to get the band to change that next winter. I actually saw more road games than home games this year. Most of the games the Stalkerette came with me, nothing better than going to a game with your four year old and having a hotdog at halftime for dinner. Her favorite color is green and NJCU colors are green and gold and she has been going to games since she was a month old, coincidence?
Many people think that things are biased when they are neutral, because they are reporting on this going against the team they are rooting for. Same in sports and politics.
I remember noticing in the first Wooster-Wittenberg game that Russ and Borchers were off the court together for at least one spell in the first half and maybe another in the second. I don't think it had to do with any particular strategy or matchups but rather that it's part of Coach Brown's regular rotation. It's certainly not how I would go about it; barring foul trouble, I'd make sure to have one of them on the court at all times, which certainly would be easy enough.
As far as their defensive abilities on the perimeter I believe both of them to be excellent. They might be a half step slower than most guards, but only that, and their height and wingspan more than counteracts for that slight difference in quickness. I remember Russ especially playing outside defense on Tom Port and even James Cooper and doing an excellent job of it.
I watched all of Wittenberg-Amherst and most of the Wesleyans' game via the webcast video last night. Although I'm still not impressed with the video (the picture is only about a 2 on a scale of 10; I wish it were possible to utilize more of my available broadband to improve on that) I thought the commentary was excellent, including that of the pregame which surprisingly captivated me.
Game two was just so much more entertaining. The players in that game were able to display their offensive skills (which were considerable) because there was none of the constant mugging of ballhandlers who were driving or on the perimeter as was evident in the Wittenberg game. I really get tired of that overly physical style; it may be successful because the referees are often just overwhelmed, but it certainly takes away from the enjoyment of the game.
The Amherst coach stated at halftime that five of Wittenberg's players would have already fouled out had that game been played in New England. If he was correct (and I have no reason to doubt him), I say thank God that at least somewhere basketball is still played as it was meant to be played.
It appears that the finals will not be on video tonight because the game is already on CSTV?
Is that correct?
Go Tigers!
Great picture of Artie Taylor's semifinal outfit at
http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=713&photo=0010
You are correct. It's only on audio.
WITTENBERG RADIO COVERAGE
Pre-Game Show starts at 4:00pm
Post-Game Interviews with coaches and players
Listen online here:
http://www4.wittenberg.edu/news/athletics/broadcast/index.html
or on 89.1 FM in the Springfield area.
The video was very good quality... better than what the D1 games were going out at. I believe I was told the video quality was going out at double the quality that the D1 games were going out at.
The Wittenberg Tigers are on the air!
Go Tigers!
Quote from: Old School on March 18, 2006, 02:39:52 AMObviously I wasn't trying to brag and no one could compete with the old April!
Well, I could ... but only in quantity, not in quality. Seems like I see more than my share of dog games here in Chicago and the 'burbs every year, but the old April would never hesitate to hop into her car and catch a huge WIAC or MIAA tilt.
Pat,
Dan and Dane aren't in at the same time because of Coach Brown's regular rotation. A player can be hot and Coach Brown will pull them. Don't ask me why but I have seen it for 8 years now.
Thanks for a GREAT SEASON!
Go TIGERS!
Amazing finish!
Congrats to Virginia Wesleyan!
Great game.
Congratulations to the Virginia Wesleyan Marlins for a great come-from-behind win for the 2006 NCAA Division III Men's Basketball National Championship.
Roughrider
Final Four Audio Scorecard (Pat, if you're "listening")
All Four Games--audio very good, no problem with links. :)
Great job, Pat and company. Very much enjoyed being able to listen in. :)
Anyone else with more comments, I'd like to "hear". Thanks for any more "feedback".
Roughrider
Yes-great coverage all the way around. The whole site did a good job of bringing the info all year, and getting the story for the tournament, too. Good job, Pat
Quote from: diehardfan on March 18, 2006, 02:01:10 AM
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 18, 2006, 01:36:56 AM
Quote from: Old School on March 18, 2006, 12:14:38 AM
I saw...
That's quite a track record there OS... Are you aspiring to be the next April? :D
More like the old April. :D This April only saw 16 teams this year. :(
I think I saw 13 D3 teams this year.* Not as good as April, but not bad considering I moved during the early season (to Siberifornia) and spent most of the rest of the season studying for the bar exam. I hope to do much better next season. :)
* Chronologically, St. Thomas, UW-Stout, Wooster, Kalamazoo, Penn St.-Behrend, Puget Sound, Illinois Wesleyan, Occidental, Amherst, Cal Tech, Redlands, Wittenberg, Va. Wesleyan. Plus Berry (Ga.) and Westmont (Ca.), NAIA teams at the Westmont Classic with IWU and UPS.
Let's see:
Wabash
IWU
Texas - Dallas
Alma
DePauw
Tri-State
Greenville
Franklin
Allegheny
Hiram
Wooster
OWU
Kenyon
Denison
Witt
Earlham
So that's 16...
North Park
UW-Whitewater
Dominican
Benedictine
Concordia (WI)
McMurry
Aurora
Wheaton (IL)
Concordia (IL)
Elmhurst
Simpson
Hanover
Chicago
Illinois Wesleyan
Lake Forest
Westminster (MO)
Olivet
Marian
Buena Vista
Augustana
Millikin
North Central
Brandeis
Lakeland
Carthage
Carnegie Mellon
Washington (MO)
... plus a couple of NAIA teams.
So that's 27 D3 teams ... and as you can guess from the names on the list, there were quite a few less-than-scintillating games on my docket back in November and December.
Interestingly, the three of us have no teams seen in common, aside from David and I both seeing Illinois Wesleyan. The Titans are one of the teams I saw multiple times, as I caught them on their visits to the U of C and North Park. North Park, Chicago, Elmhurst, Wheaton, Dominican, and Concordia (WI) are the other teams I saw more than once.
I had a lot more overlap with Old School. Of the 18 teams he saw, we have the following teams in common: UW-Whitewater, Augustana, Illinois Wesleyan, Lakeland, and Concordia (WI).
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2006, 11:04:02 AM
...and Concordia (WI) are the other teams I saw more than once.
I feel bad you had to see Concordia (WI) more than once. ::)
Quote from: Old School on March 19, 2006, 11:32:16 AMI feel bad you had to see Concordia (WI) more than once. ::)
I feel worse that Concordia (WI) was one of NPU's four victories -- and that the Vikings had to go down to the wire to beat them. >:(
Congratulations to Virginia Wesleyan on their title.
A great year for Wittenberg.
Thanks to all of you out here who made it a very interesting tournament season for me.
Prior to this tournament I had really only known about the Top 25 poll at D3Hoops. I'm glad I discovered the discussion boards.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2006, 11:04:02 AMThe Titans are one of the teams I saw multiple times, as I caught them on their visits to the U of C and North Park. North Park, Chicago, Elmhurst, Wheaton, Dominican, and Concordia (WI) are the other teams I saw more than once.
Oddly enough, although I only managed to see 13 teams overall, I saw 11 of them in more than one game (I saw Behrend and Redlands just once each.) Furthermore, I saw Amherst play in two locations nearly 2,500 miles apart from one another (Eagle Rock and Salem)...and Illinois Wesleyan in two venues even more distant than that (Santa Barbara and Salem.)
My list may not be deep, but it's fairly elite. Of the 13 teams I saw, 8 were in the final regular season top 25 poll, and I saw 9 of the 25 All-Americans. And I saw Cal Tech...twice. :)
It was an odd season for me, for sure.
Greg, actually, the year I went crazy, 03-04, I actually saw around 40 teams... certainly over 40 games anyway. And approx 16-18 of those received votes in the final top 25 poll that year... so :P
Anyhow, here's my list:
Puget Sound, Whitman, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, Occidental, Cal Tech, Redlands, Whittier, IWU, Wheaton, Witt, Mount Union, Fisk, Randolph Macon, Va Wesleyan, York, Penn State-Behrend, Ursinus, Amherst.
That would be 18 teams, and 10 of the teams receiving votes in the last top 25 poll, and as I was typing the list... (I went around the country geographically) what a crazy region spread I got! 7 west region, 2 midwest, 2 great lakes, 3 south, 2 mid atlantic, 1 east, 1 northeast. Gotta love the non-conference season and winter tourneys. :)
This has been a rough year for me, it was easy to predict Point as having a great shot at the championship early on in 2004, or Whitewater to be a non-factor, or the MWC to be a legit conference, when no one else did, just because I had seen so many of the key teams play.
One I had actually seen all four teams play in the Final Four this year, it was "easy" to pick the winner of the final. It has been tough to be unable to see games, and to know what I'm talking about (in the best sense, an experiential sense) here.
Oh well, I'm sure next year will be better! :-\ :-[
Quote from: diehardfan on March 19, 2006, 11:38:02 PM
Greg, actually, the year I went crazy, 03-04, I actually saw around 40 teams... certainly over 40 games anyway. And approx 16-18 of those received votes in the final top 25 poll that year... so :P
I've topped 40 teams seen more than once, although I freely concede that you've tended to see more of the good teams than have I. I've pretty much restricted myself to whomever happened to be coming through Chicago or the 'burbs. But I think I should get bonus points for the fact that I've hit the 40-teams level without owning a car. ;D
I haven't reached the 40-teams mark for a few years now, because of: a) other commitments in my life that intrude upon watching basketball games :( ; and b) I've largely stopped the practice of going elsewhere to see a men's game as a neutral observer, even if it's a good matchup, when the NPU women's team is playing at home. It's a loyalty thing.
Even in our best years, though, if you were counting NAIA teams as well as D3 teams neither of us would even come close to Mr. and Mrs. Quillman. I'm just amazed by how many basketball games they see every season.
In my best years I probably saw around thirty-five to forty teams. That was when I was single and childless and could go to NYC to see games at various CUNY schools. I have to admit to seeing a few MAAC games at the Yanatelli Center on Campus at St. Peters. And usually a Lafayette game or two in Easton PA. when visiting Mom. St. Peters is still a D-I program playing basically by D-III rules, Lafayette was, they are now giving three basketball scholarships per year. I am disappointed in their administration, they caved to the Alumi Associations pressure.
I think I have seen some of the better teams in the Atlantic, East and Mid-Atlantic regions over the last 15 or 16 years.
April you still have to come see a NJAC game, you best bet would be to catch Ramapo at the Cactus Jam next winter if they play.
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Quote from: knightstalker on March 21, 2006, 10:26:59 AM
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Yeah, the atmosphere for the big rivalry game with the Mole People is not to be missed.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2006, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 21, 2006, 10:26:59 AM
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Yeah, the atmosphere for the big rivalry game with the Mole People is not to be missed.
There are some interesting venues in the NY/NJ area. LIU plays in a converted theater. Caldwell Colleges gym is like an old auditorium or lecture hall, the seats have desks attached. Centenary's gym is an old, not sure what but very interesting.
Quote from: Old School on March 18, 2006, 03:31:26 AM
Stevens Point
Cardinal Stritch
Mid-America Nazarene
Grace College
Lakeland
Edgewood
MSOE
Concordia (Wis.)
Ripon
Lawrence*
Illinois Wesleyan*
Carroll College*
DePauw
Puget Sound*
Augustana*
Eau Claire
Oshkosh*
Stout*
Whitewater*
La Crosse
River Falls
Well, of my list, 8 were ranked at some point of the year and only Oshkosh (I think) wasn't ranked at the end of the year. And if I would've gone to the Final Four, I would've added three more ranked teams to my belt! Point got votes at the beginning and I think La Crosse got some at the end. NAIA teams Cardinal Stritch and Mid-America were both ranked, though if you've seen Stritch, that's not a big deal. Ironically, both Stitch and Nazarene posted 1st round upsets in the D2 NAIA tourney, faced each other with Nazarene winning, eventually losing in the semis. Grace was also ranked in the NCCAA, but not int he NAIA.
Anyway, maybe next season I'll go to Vegas for the holiday tourney there, or head to sunny San Diego for the Surf n Slam tourney there...but only if April meets me there with cookies. ;)
I suppose all this talk about teams from various conferences could've been discussed in the inter-conference page. Oh well.
Yeah, but you really can't count Mid-America. I too have seem them this year and they are not good. I'm not sure how they made that run in the NAIA-II tournament. I know the Point played them near the beginning of the year, so the loss can be chalked up to chemistry, but I wouldn't be bragging about them as an opponent, especially when they won the game.
I know you, specifically, are not bragging. I'm just saying that there are those who would like to attribute that loss to a really good team, when in reality, they weren't.
Quote from: knightstalker on March 21, 2006, 10:26:59 AM
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Sounds like a scarey place to have the game on the line when you shoot your free throw as the 9:17 from Brooklyn rolls by
NYU's court is also below ground, though I don't know if there's any proximity to the subway.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 21, 2006, 12:12:06 PM
NYU's court is also below ground, though I don't know if there's any proximity to the subway.
It is not that close, NYU's is different, theirs is actually kind of nice and within a larger nice facility. You don't literally step off the subway and down into the gym.
When I was a kid, I saw NYU when they played major college basketball, at least what passed for that on the east coast. I'm pretty sure that I saw them in the NIT, when that still meant something, at the old Madison Square Garden at 50th and 8th. Or it could have been at the old Holiday Festival, also at the Garden.
They had such players as Barry Kramer, he of the hesitation jump shot which he shot with only one hand touching the ball (ala Bob Pettit), and forward Happy Hairston who went on to play with the Lakers. Hairston was also in one of the funniest Lite Beer commercials, the one in which he's spinning the ball on his hand and when he walks away, the ball remains in position, still spinning.
Quote from: northb on March 21, 2006, 12:06:07 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 21, 2006, 10:26:59 AM
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Sounds like a scarey place to have the game on the line when you shoot your free throw as the 9:17 from Brooklyn rolls by
Hunter has its own Subway Station off the 6 Train. When you get off the train you still have to take an escalator and then a set of stairs down to get on to the actual court. You don't really notice the subway so much, but in the hallway outside the gym there's constant noise from the escalators which are quite annoying.
When I was there for an NCAA game in 98 you could hear the subway trains that were rumbling overhead and if you watch the net close enough you can see it start to vibrate sometimes.
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 21, 2006, 12:44:51 PM
Quote from: northb on March 21, 2006, 12:06:07 PM
Quote from: knightstalker on March 21, 2006, 10:26:59 AM
The one place to catch a game if it is ever possible is at Hunter College, their gym is below ground level, alongside or slightly below the NYC Subway. Very interesting venue for a game.
Sounds like a scarey place to have the game on the line when you shoot your free throw as the 9:17 from Brooklyn rolls by
Hunter has its own Subway Station off the 6 Train. When you get off the train you still have to take an escalator and then a set of stairs down to get on to the actual court. You don't really notice the subway so much, but in the hallway outside the gym there's constant noise from the escalators which are quite annoying.
Sooooooo, about that game vs. the Mole People?
knightstalker - having played at RPI back in the late 60's, the strangest venue we ever played in was at what was then called Brooklyn Poly. Does the school now exist as either NY Tech or Polytechnic University?
Anyway, I remember running up a set of stairs to the top of a building - the floor (no bleachers at all) had a ceiling that was a transparent bubble - and because the game was on a Saturday afternoon (after playing at Stevens tech in Hoboken on Friday night), it was horrendously bright as the winter sun shone "directly" down on us.
Brooklyn Poly wasn't very good.....
Quote from: hopefan on March 21, 2006, 01:51:39 PM
knightstalker - having played at RPI back in the late 60's, the strangest venue we ever played in was at what was then called Brooklyn Poly. Does the school now exist as either NY Tech or Polytechnic University?
Anyway, I remember running up a set of stairs to the top of a building - the floor (no bleachers at all) had a ceiling that was a transparent bubble - and because the game was on a Saturday afternoon (after playing at Stevens tech in Hoboken on Friday night), it was horrendously bright as the winter sun shone "directly" down on us.
Brooklyn Poly wasn't very good.....
Did you play shirts vs. skins as well??
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 21, 2006, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: hopefan on March 21, 2006, 01:51:39 PM
knightstalker - having played at RPI back in the late 60's, the strangest venue we ever played in was at what was then called Brooklyn Poly. Does the school now exist as either NY Tech or Polytechnic University?
Anyway, I remember running up a set of stairs to the top of a building - the floor (no bleachers at all) had a ceiling that was a transparent bubble - and because the game was on a Saturday afternoon (after playing at Stevens tech in Hoboken on Friday night), it was horrendously bright as the winter sun shone "directly" down on us.
Brooklyn Poly wasn't very good.....
Did you play shirts vs. skins as well??
They couldn't do that appropriately, what with the girls on the Poly team and all.
That sounds like those games from the 50's when the gyms had 8 foot ceilings and the baskets were at 7 feet with pillars in the middle of the playing surface. Gotta love the old days.
I've played in some gyms where the benches for the teams were cut into the wall and the players legs were dangling on the court.
I've also seen some where the pillars were along the sidelines, but never too far on to the court. Some places didn't even have padding on the pillars either, I'm sure that must have been fun.
Quote from: hopefan on March 21, 2006, 01:51:39 PM
knightstalker - having played at RPI back in the late 60's, the strangest venue we ever played in was at what was then called Brooklyn Poly. Does the school now exist as either NY Tech or Polytechnic University?
Anyway, I remember running up a set of stairs to the top of a building - the floor (no bleachers at all) had a ceiling that was a transparent bubble - and because the game was on a Saturday afternoon (after playing at Stevens tech in Hoboken on Friday night), it was horrendously bright as the winter sun shone "directly" down on us.
Brooklyn Poly wasn't very good.....
They still arent, they are one of the worst teams in the NEAC. They are known as just Polytechnic now and it looks like they have a newer facility.
Centenary has one of the facilities like has been discussed here, very small, the walls are practically bordering the court and some other strange obstacles if I recall correctly, I haven't been there in about 20 years since I was dating a player from their team back in the mid eighties when they were a womens school.
The Hoopsville wrap-up on Tuesday night was quite informative. It gave me a better perspective of the national game, because we ASC teams usually don't "have a dog in that hunt".*** (***A Texas-ism, most recently employed by former Governor Ann Richards to denote impartiality and unbiased observations. ;) )
The comments by Amherst and Southern Maine were quite instructive. It seems that they play Naismithian Basketball, whereas the more accurate description of the game played in the Midwest is what Dr Naismith and his purists would describe as "indoor football".
If Ashley Smith anticipates where she wants to be under the basket for the play and commits to that position first, she has allowed the rest of the space to be occupied by someone else. When a Hope player decides that she is not where she should be, Dr Naismith would interpret the subsequent Hope elbow in Ashley's side to be a foul. The Hope partisans would complain about a ticky-tack foul, and plead to "let the ladies play." Likewise, the Amherst coach realized that the game was different. He had to adjust, but probably not to his liking. After all, why don't we just swallow the whistles and let the guys play "indoor football"?
This type of play favors brutishness and does not reward the cerrebral understanding of where and how the game needs to be played. It gives an overwhelming advantage to the larger player.
It also explains why the Great Lakes and Midwest Regions dominate, because Dr Naismith would say his game has degenerated into "indoor football".
Ralph, I have heard GL and Midwest fans complain about Eastern teams playing too physical and playing "indoor football" What I find really funny is the Amherst coach complaining about rough play, what they are complaining about this year they did a couple of years ago. When NJCU played them in the the Sweet 16 everytime an NJCU player drove the lane you could hear the hands slapping them and see their bodies get turned and no whistle. Schiel was hooking Battle and Williams under the boards constantly and would put his forearm right in a players chest and push and no whistle. So basically coaches have to realize that games will be called differently and you have to adjust to not just the other teams actions but the way the officials call the game.
Yeah, maybe Amherst was complaining because it doesn't favor this particular team or perhaps because the NESCAC teams are pansies... I'm not sure; I'm making no judgements there. I know New England ball, at least in the less prestigious conferences gets pretty rough, as does play in Upstate New York and New Jersey.
When I went to the Grinnell-Lawrence game (my first Midwest d3 match-up) I was really, really suprised at how little the refs let go. They were calling fouls that would never even come close to drawing a whistle back in New England.
There were also complaints to that effect when Lawrence played IWU. Perhaps its just the MWC and the NESCAC, with all of their academic snobbery, that play a more mannerly brand of basketball?
as a nescac person, i've always considered nescac to be a really rough and tumble league, and amherst to be one of the most physical teams. although i wasn't there, i would certainly agree with knighstalker's assessment of what happened two years ago. i really think you must consider the source of the current comments and take it from there....
Tough to figure where this post should go - this seemed better than most.
George Mason became the first double-digit seed to make the d1 FF in 20 years (and the previous was LSU, so they are the first 'mid-major' double-digit seed ever), and this is the first year since d1 went to 64 teams that no #1 seed was in the FF.
Since d3 doesn't officially seed teams, these are hard questions to research.
Would other posters feel that d3 has ever had the 'equivalent' of a 'double-digit' seed in the FF?
Do you think the d3 FF has ever lacked a #1 seed?
Here is another question, also figured this was the best forum to ask:
Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.
D3 -- Va. Wesleyan
D2 -- Virginia Union
D1 -- George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)
If that is not enough to think about:
NIT -- ODU
I think it's been a pretty unique post-season for men's basketball in Va. this year.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2006, 08:12:29 PM
Tough to figure where this post should go - this seemed better than most.
George Mason became the first double-digit seed to make the d1 FF in 20 years (and the previous was LSU, so they are the first 'mid-major' double-digit seed ever), and this is the first year since d1 went to 64 teams that no #1 seed was in the FF.
Since d3 doesn't officially seed teams, these are hard questions to research.
Would other posters feel that d3 has ever had the 'equivalent' of a 'double-digit' seed in the FF?
Do you think the d3 FF has ever lacked a #1 seed?
These aren't just hard questions to research, they're hard questions to answer. It's well-nigh impossible to come up with definitive responses, due to the lack of published seeds.
I'd always thought that if there was ever anything close to a double-digit seed that made the D3 tourney's Final Four it would be the 1997 Alvernia team. It was a 64-team tourney that year, for one thing, which meant more lowly-seeded squads than normal. More importantly, it's the first and only time that a PAC team has even come close to the Final Four; the PAC is a league that gets little or no respect from its Middle Atlantic peers. However, after looking at some website archives, it appears that Alvernia might've been seeded fairly high that year; the Crusaders entered the tournament with a 22-4 record, and their first-round opponent, Lebanon Valley, was 17-10.
The second question is even harder to answer than the first. In fact, I'll go ahead and say that it's impossible to answer.
In 2003 Pat had GAC listed as the 9, which, since they aren't published, could very well have been a 10.
Quote from: ncbballfan on March 26, 2006, 08:45:20 PM
Here is another question, also figured this was the best forum to ask:
Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.
D3 -- Va. Wesleyan
D2 -- Virginia Union
D1 -- George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)
If that is not enough to think about:
NIT -- ODU
I think it's been a pretty unique post-season for men's basketball in Va. this year.
It must be because I moved away. :-[
Quote from: ncbballfan on March 26, 2006, 08:45:20 PM
D1 -- George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)
So you mean pre-season would not be the team from VA to get that far? George Mason was the only team from Virginia in the D1 tournament. If anyone was going to make it from VA, it would have had to be them.
I guess I'm looking for clarification on that statement.
(I also wanted to check and see what other VA schools participated in tournaments but didn't get to the final four (ie RM-C), but I have no clue where any of those d2 schools are from, so I gave up.
With D1 schools like UVA and Va. Tech, as well as ODU with Loughton, Hunter, and Williamson returning from last year's squad that lost to Mich. St. in the1st round, I would have figured it would have been one of those 3, if any Va. school.
Not knocking what GMU has accomplished, I think it's fantastic, just saying I would have never imagined them getting this far.
Now since GMU was the lone Va. representative, you're right, only possible team to pull it off.
As far as other Va. schools in tournaments,
D3 men's -- VWC, RMC, CNU
D2 men's -- Va. Union
D1 Men's -- GMU
NIT men's -- UVA, ODU
D3 women's -- Bridgewater & Mary Washington (both lost in sweet 16), RMC (lost in elite 8)
D2 women's -- couldn't find any
D1 women's -- ODU, Va. Tech
So none of those schools with wacked out and crazy names in the d-II tournament were from Virginia, besides the obvious one?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 27, 2006, 05:46:01 AM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 26, 2006, 08:12:29 PM
Tough to figure where this post should go - this seemed better than most.
George Mason became the first double-digit seed to make the d1 FF in 20 years (and the previous was LSU, so they are the first 'mid-major' double-digit seed ever), and this is the first year since d1 went to 64 teams that no #1 seed was in the FF.
Since d3 doesn't officially seed teams, these are hard questions to research.
Would other posters feel that d3 has ever had the 'equivalent' of a 'double-digit' seed in the FF?
Do you think the d3 FF has ever lacked a #1 seed?
These aren't just hard questions to research, they're hard questions to answer. It's well-nigh impossible to come up with definitive responses, due to the lack of published seeds.
I'd always thought that if there was ever anything close to a double-digit seed that made the D3 tourney's Final Four it would be the 1997 Alvernia team. It was a 64-team tourney that year, for one thing, which meant more lowly-seeded squads than normal. More importantly, it's the first and only time that a PAC team has even come close to the Final Four; the PAC is a league that gets little or no respect from its Middle Atlantic peers. However, after looking at some website archives, it appears that Alvernia might've been seeded fairly high that year; the Crusaders entered the tournament with a 22-4 record, and their first-round opponent, Lebanon Valley, was 17-10.
The second question is even harder to answer than the first. In fact, I'll go ahead and say that it's impossible to answer.
Without posted seeds, it surely is impossible to definitely answer - but there are two surrogates that could be used.
#1 is Pat's poll (certainly NOT a good surrogate since it is 'officially' irrelevant, highly ranked teams often meet well before the FF, and it only goes back to 2000). Using this measure, 2001 seems the only possible candidate lately - ONU was #3, but no other FF team was in the top ten. [BTW, kudos to Pat's voters (and I'm sure joy to him) - his beloved Catholic (ranked 14th in 2001) is the ONLY national champion so far not ranked in the top 10 of the final regular season poll! And over 50% of FF teams have been in the top ten (over 60% if you extend to the top eleven). Good predictions, guys!]
The more relevant (though far from perfect) surrogate is sectional hosts. Since these are not selected 'til after the second round, the actual #1 seed may have already lost (but, as with d1, I imagine it is fairly rare for a #1 not to survive the first weekend). Likewise, of course, there are geographical and gym-size considerations. But I think the sectional host is USUALLY the #1 seed.
Do others think this is often enough true to be worth the trouble of checking sectional hosts and FF teams, or would this be an exercise in irrelevancy?!
Hoops Fan -
I never thought about it, but gosh, you're right. What a collection of oddly named schools in D2.
C
Quote from: Coach C on March 28, 2006, 12:25:16 AM
Hoops Fan -
I never thought about it, but gosh, you're right. What a collection of oddly named schools in D2.
C
I know its like reading Cyrillic.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 27, 2006, 12:14:29 PM
Quote from: ncbballfan on March 26, 2006, 08:45:20 PM
Here is another question, also figured this was the best forum to ask:
Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.
D3 -- Va. Wesleyan
D2 -- Virginia Union
D1 -- George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)
If that is not enough to think about:
NIT -- ODU
I think it's been a pretty unique post-season for men's basketball in Va. this year.
It must be because I moved away. :-[
Two CAC teams in final fours, GMU in the NCAA and ODU in the NIT FF. Not bad for a mid-major conference and I still think Hofstra should have been in the NCAA tournament. The Hofstra players and coaches have to be thinking they could have performed as well as GMU in the tournament.
Quote from: ncbballfan on March 26, 2006, 08:45:20 PM
Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.
Wisconsin only had one D2 team, UW-Parkside, and they aren't very good! ;D
Hockey though...
D1 women's champs-Wisconsin
D1 men's Final Four-Wisconsin
D3-men's Finalist-St. Norbert (WI)
D3-women's Final Four-UW-Stevens Point
Is that close? No D2 hockey schools in Wisconsin.
No, I don't think hockey counts, since there are so few states with participating schools. There are probably a decent number of states who could boast something similar.
Now football might be a sport I'd consider accepting as valid, although its hard to know who the "final four" is in D1.
I don't know how current these numbers are, but I recorded the # of d3 schools for all sports a year or so ago. There are only 68 men's hockey teams (vs 394 bball, 231 fb); there are (were) only 43 women's hockey teams (vs 425 bball).
Baseball/softball might be an option - 359/396. If LAX is still growing as fast as it was, it might soon be an option - 130/153. Swimming has the numbers (191/235), but it is ALWAYS Kenyon, so what's the point! Tennis has 313/360. Cross Country 348/377. Indoor track 218/226. Outdoor track 248/257. Golf 270/145. And, of course, soccer 381/406.
Soccer would work and honestly I wouldn't mind hockey if there was an even spread of hockey teams across the d3 participation area, but the hockey teams are generally relegated to just a few states, which gives those states an edge when we're talking about state representation in final fours.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 29, 2006, 01:18:06 PM
Soccer would work and honestly I wouldn't mind hockey if there was an even spread of hockey teams across the d3 participation area, but the hockey teams are generally relegated to just a few states, which gives those states an edge when we're talking about state representation in final fours.
Re: hockey:
Ralph, what's up with the lack of hockey teams in Texas?! Hasn't the extraordinary success and attendance at Dallas (North)Stars, LA Kings, Tampa Bay Lightening, etc., made it clear that hockey is soon to replace football as THE sport in the sunbelt?
And don't give me that 'crap' about how hard it is to keep ice hockey from turning into water polo on a d3 budget - if you weren't just SCARED of Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc., you'd find a way.
We demand ASC hockey! ;D ;)
There are several of schools that are considering ice hockey in the Sun Belt. I hear that Texas A&M and Texas Tech are trying to get club teams running, as are University of Arizona and Arizona State.
Already, Univeristy of Alabama, Huntsville has a D1 program.
There's a few schools through the southern Great Plains with club hockey.
Since the CCIW doesn't have hockey, I'm obviously just yanking your chain. If you're south of the 55th parallel, I would imagine that this may be the MOST expensive sport (probably even worse than football).
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 30, 2006, 10:32:21 PM
And don't give me that 'crap' about how hard it is to keep ice hockey from turning into water polo on a d3 budget - if you weren't just SCARED of Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc., you'd find a way.
They should just be scared of Middlebury since they win it pretty much every year. After Point's dominance in the early 90's, 3 in a row, 4 of 5 or something like that, Middlebury has won something like 10 national championships since 1995, or there abouts. I just know it's about as many fingers as I have on my hands and I haven't had any industrial or domestic accidents that have caused me to lose any of my phalanges.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 01, 2006, 11:50:45 PM
Since the CCIW doesn't have hockey, I'm obviously just yanking your chain. If you're south of the 55th parallel, I would imagine that this may be the MOST expensive sport (probably even worse than football).
Renting ice time is insane, that's where hockey outcosts football. If it wasn't for co-op teams, many Wisconsin high school teams (I think they make up 1/3 of the WIAA teams) couldn't afford hockey.
Even up north, wher there are more rinks, the ice time is outrageous in terms of costs. It's the most expensive sport most places it is played.
C
Quote from: Coach C on April 02, 2006, 11:59:04 AM
Even up north, wher there are more rinks, the ice time is outrageous in terms of costs. It's the most expensive sport most places it is played.
C
Not to mention the fact some practices start at either 5 in the morning or 11 at night.
Well yeah, the issues is that despite the fact that there are more rinks, there are also more people who want to use them. Thus, the 4:30am HS girls hockey practice I saw scheduled earlier this year.
C
Hockey is a strange sport on the collegiate level.
You have D3 and D2 schools playing D1 hockey.........and you have D1 schools playing club hockey.
Incidently Hope and Calvin have two of the better club hockey teams in the country. They've each been to the club hockey championship tournament a few times in recent years, competing against schools like Wyoming, Georgia etc.
Quote from: sac on April 03, 2006, 03:57:48 PM
Hockey is a strange sport on the collegiate level.
You have D3 and D2 schools playing D1 hockey.........and you have D1 schools playing club hockey.
Incidently Hope and Calvin have two of the better club hockey teams in the country. They've each been to the club hockey championship tournament a few times in recent years, competing against schools like Wyoming, Georgia etc.
I'm guessing that there must be different 'divisions' in club hockey, too. EMU and Penn St. have been the consistent national powers in recent years in whatever 'division' they play in - and I don't recall them ever playing Hope or Calvin.
Anyone know how the club scene is set up?
In soccer, I don't think there are any divisions. Stevens Point's men's team is club, but when they went to nationals several years in a row, they constantly played D1 club teams from Arizona, Texas and major D1 schools like that. They had coaches, matching bags, fancy equipment and all that, but the only reason they were "club" was because the schools didn't sponsor them. Point, on the other hand, were lucky to have matching socks. :P They played pretty competitive vs. their D1 club counterparts on the first day of the national club tourney, but usually lost by considerable margins the next day (for reasons you can imagine, since it includes "a night" before the next day's games).
I'm not sure if men's club volleyball has divisions either. Lakeland's men's team sound like they are pretty good since they are always ranked in some kind of national club volleyball association poll, which includes Marquette.
Back about a decade ago when I followed it a bit, the Wooster men's club volleyball team routinely played in regular season tournaments that included DI, DII, and DIII schools. At the national tournament, I believe there were two levels. They were not broken down by DI, DII, etc., but rather by team strength based on seasonal results. Of course, the larger universities were generally better, but there was quite a bit of overlap. After all, it only takes six good players to make a strong team. Hockey, where you need three times that number, would make it tougher on the smaller schools.
Posted a commentary on the Final Four on the Daily Dose.
http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=171
Quote from: Old School on April 04, 2006, 12:30:52 AM
In soccer, I don't think there are any divisions. Stevens Point's men's team is club, but when they went to nationals several years in a row, they constantly played D1 club teams from Arizona, Texas and major D1 schools like that. They had coaches, matching bags, fancy equipment and all that, but the only reason they were "club" was because the schools didn't sponsor them. Point, on the other hand, were lucky to have matching socks. :P They played pretty competitive vs. their D1 club counterparts on the first day of the national club tourney, but usually lost by considerable margins the next day (for reasons you can imagine, since it includes "a night" before the next day's games).
I'm not sure if men's club volleyball has divisions either. Lakeland's men's team sound like they are pretty good since they are always ranked in some kind of national club volleyball association poll, which includes Marquette.
Old school, I may have misunderstood your post, but there is an official D3 Championship in men's and women's soccer. Only 4 WIAC's participate, tho' (Osh, Platte, Sup and WW). Club teams exist where the schools do not wish to run afoul of Title IX issues and so do declare it as an intercollegiate sport. In fact, The Big XII does not sponsor men's soccer, only the Women. (http://www.big12sports.com/sports/w-soccer/big12-w-soccer-body.html)
D3 Men's Handbook (http://www.ncaa.org/library/handbooks/soccer/2005/2005_d3_m_soccer_handbook.pdf)
I believe he's asking if the club soccer world has divisions.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on April 03, 2006, 05:40:24 PM
Quote from: sac on April 03, 2006, 03:57:48 PM
Hockey is a strange sport on the collegiate level.
You have D3 and D2 schools playing D1 hockey.........and you have D1 schools playing club hockey.
Incidently Hope and Calvin have two of the better club hockey teams in the country. They've each been to the club hockey championship tournament a few times in recent years, competing against schools like Wyoming, Georgia etc.
I'm guessing that there must be different 'divisions' in club hockey, too. EMU and Penn St. have been the consistent national powers in recent years in whatever 'division' they play in - and I don't recall them ever playing Hope or Calvin.
Anyone know how the club scene is set up?
There is a division 1 and a division 2...........theirs also a website somewhere.
Quote from: sac on April 05, 2006, 03:41:37 PM
There is a division 1 and a division 2...........there's also a website somewhere.
American College hockey Association (ACHA) (http://www.achahockey.org/league.php?scriptName=HOME&leagueID=7880/)
Anyone else have problems with that website?
Yes. There should not be a slash on the end of the link. Try this one:
http://www.achahockey.org/league.php?scriptName=HOME&leagueID=7880
You can't forget the Slash; look what G-n-R has become.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on April 06, 2006, 05:04:51 PM
You can't forget the Slash; look what G-n-R has become.
Nice. :D Just think what AC/DC would be without a "slash"...
OK, yours is better.
As a result of the front page and Pat's dream on the front page, my money is on not Platteville and NYU... Pat's picks of teams never all make it to the final four... even when he's awake. :P :D ;)
Watch, now they'll get there, and two years from now I'll get a email from a then-current Platteville or NYU player making fun of me, sorta like those funny emails from Rochester's Gabe Perez that I got a few months back. :D :D :D :-[
changing the name to the current year cause I like to have fun with my meager board adminstrative powers ;D
Quote from: diehardfan on August 01, 2006, 06:44:09 PM
changing the name to the current year cause I like to have fun with my meager board adminstrative powers ;D
And apparently look ahead...way ahead! ;)
At least you have meager board administrative powers! Not that I would know what to do with them! ???
*and no Pat, I'm not asking for them!
well, thanks to pat's dream we'd already started to predict final four picks... :P
I don't have the power to change topic names, but I can create topics, and merge into an existing one and change the name that way... surely you can do that too? ???
Methinks any All-American can do this, yes.
Hmm. That's a "power" I never knew I had. I'll use it to merge a random MIAA message, created as a new topic called "Upcoming Season," into the MIAA home board. I hope I don't end up changing the name of that board to "Upcoming Season," but at least if I do, there will be this electronic paper trail.
If you read the screens you can make sure you get the right board name for the merged board. It's fun and a good way to be self-policing.
Salem VA recommended for 2008 and 2009 Championships. (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4g3NPUESUGYHvqRaGLGphhCjggRX4_83FSgeKQ5UMAoJFg_Kic1PTG5Uj9Y31s_QL8gNzQ0ojzfEQCHT8i0/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvd0ZNQUFzQUsvNElVRS82XzBfMTVL?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/NCAA/NCAA+News/NCAA+News+Online/2006/Division+III/Panel%E2%80%99s+focus+switches+to+emerging+championships+issues+-+10-9-06+NCAA+News)
Looks like we'll be headed to Salem for a few more years yet.
Pat is Maryville's argument for being a D3hoops Top 25 team this preseason, please take it for what its worth
Go Scots
http://www.maryvillecollege.edu/athletics/news-detail.asp?sportNameID=5&id=1634
I was just reading through the Championship Handbook for this year and noticed there is one reclassifying institution that is ineligible for post-season play this year. Any idea as to which one that might be?
Quote from: Hoops Fan on January 09, 2007, 10:10:00 AM
I was just reading through the Championship Handbook for this year and noticed there is one reclassifying institution that is ineligible for post-season play this year. Any idea as to which one that might be?
Chowan is moving to D2. They're noted on page 48.
Anyone want to make some early predictions? It's more fun before you know the seeding... :)
Quote from: pabegg on January 09, 2007, 11:03:33 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on January 09, 2007, 10:10:00 AM
I was just reading through the Championship Handbook for this year and noticed there is one reclassifying institution that is ineligible for post-season play this year. Any idea as to which one that might be?
Chowan is moving to D2. They're noted on page 48.
There was a Hoopsville argument about this one. I actually had thought Dave McHugh was right that Chowan was a DIII... apparently everyone was right. :D
One has to wonder about the wisdom of any venue moving to the NCAA "Neither-Fish-nor-Fowl" division ....
Quote from: diehardfan on February 19, 2007, 03:45:24 PM
Anyone want to make some early predictions? It's more fun before you know the seeding... :)
To give equal representation to all four regions, I'll go with:
UW-Stevens Point (North)
Amherst (East)
Mississippi College (South)
Oxy (West)
Nothing against those picks... but I suspect Oxy and Stevens Point will be coming through the same bracket - since both are actually in the West Region and the NCAA isn't known for moving that many teams around.
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on February 19, 2007, 04:05:34 PM
Nothing against those picks... but I suspect Oxy and Stevens Point will be coming through the same bracket - since both are actually in the West Region and the NCAA isn't known for moving that many teams around.
To get from the Elite Eight to the Final Four, do we know yet which regions are paired this year?
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2007, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on February 19, 2007, 04:05:34 PM
Nothing against those picks... but I suspect Oxy and Stevens Point will be coming through the same bracket - since both are actually in the West Region and the NCAA isn't known for moving that many teams around.
To get from the Elite Eight to the Final Four, do we know yet which regions are paired this year?
Uh, of course not? ??? They do it by the teams that make it in... the problem is that I'm pretty sure either Point will come through the Oxy bracket, or Oxy and Miss College will meet up...
La Crosse got shipped to Hope/Wittenberg/Great Lakes Sectional. :o
I don't see anything about pairing regions in either the Men's or Women's Championship Handbooks. If it's there and I missed it, somebody please give me a page number reference.
I think the old structure with pre-determined paired brackets (e.g. South/Great Lakes) was done away with several years ago, in favor of a more flexible structure based on geography. In the Pairings and Site Selection section, men's page 17, the phrase "geographic proximity" is used seven times, while the word "region" does not appear. But the fact that this question gets asked about 50 times every year makes me less confident that I'm right.
Okay, how about:
Wooster (Great Lakes)
Amherst (East)
Mississippi College (South)
Oxy (West) (after all, these guys "smoked out" WLC over the holidays).
I think, and I hope the committee agrees with me, that it will be more fair to combine a lot of the more western south with the west than and the eastern south with the mid atlantic. It's gonna stink if Miss College and Va Wes have to meet relatively early though... :-\
Oxy is a very good team... but Final Four? Hmm... I dunno... will have to ponder that one a little. I'm more comfortable with a max of Sweet Sixteen level for them... esp considering who they are likely to be paired with and how much they've been tested this year. But with the way DIII is much more even this year... who knows? ???
I think that Amherst anchors the 16 teams in the northeast part of the country, UW-SP anchors the 16 teams in the west, VWC catches the 16 teams in the Atlantic seaboard and Miss College moves into the Great Lakes and wins that.
I'll be honest. I have seen Trinity's #1 seeded men's soccer team flown around the country because of geographic proximity. I will be pleasantly surprised if Miss College gets to host a Sectional. Why fly 3 teams to Clinton MS when a #1 seed Miss Coll can be flown to some venue in the Great Lakes? :P :-\ :o >:( :( ::)
Ralph, that looks like a pretty reasonable guess on the sectional hosts (and I'll guess the winner of Woo-Witt is the 4th host).
As far as the 'regional pairings to go from 8 to 4', I guess that is the sort of 'brain fart' I get for getting highly involved with the football boards for the first time! ;D Somewhere in the deep recesses of what I like to pretend is a brain, I DID know that about the bball tourney!
Ralph... that's what I had for my 4 sectional hosts! But then I deleted it and made my post without it cause I wasn't sure if it made sense. :-[ Looks like we're thinking on the same page! :)
Well, there won't be a Woo-Witt, round 3 (in fact, Witt looks doubtful to even make the tournay), so I think Ralph's suggestion of Amherst, Va Wes, UWSP, and my addition of Woo are looking pretty good as sectional hosts (assuming, of course, that all survive this weekend, and next).
Oops! Va Wes did NOT survive the weekend. I wonder if Ralph will get his wish and Mississippi College host that sectional?
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 24, 2007, 03:49:23 PM
Oops! Va Wes did NOT survive the weekend. I wonder if Ralph will get his wish and Mississippi College host that sectional?
Actually my wish is for McMurry to knock off Miss Coll later today on the video stream!!! ;)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 24, 2007, 03:50:35 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 24, 2007, 03:49:23 PM
Oops! Va Wes did NOT survive the weekend. I wonder if Ralph will get his wish and Mississippi College host that sectional?
Actually my wish is for McMurry to knock off Miss Coll later today on the video stream!!! ;)
Ah yes, I forgot your guys are still alive! If McMurry pulls it off, I have no clue who will host for that part of the country - maybe it would still be Va Wes afterall.
There goes another Pool C bid out the window
OK, diehardfan, here are my Final Four projections:
UW-Stevens Point
Mississippi College
Amherst
Wooster
(for the umpty-umpth and final time! Ba dumm bumm.) :) ;) :D
Wooster, Stevens Point, Amherst and the winner of the VAWes-MC game.
I can't believe they managed to stuff that many good teams into one side of the South bracket. Isn't the winner of the MC section going to have to fly for the second weekend anyway? Couldn't they have split those up?
Ok as diehard fan mentioned I should post my final 4 here.
UW-Steven Point
VA Wesleyan
Amherst
Wooster
I am pretty sure I am going to be laughed at for at least one of these picks, but if I follow the rants at the beginning of this post (one team that shouldn't be there will be there, then I am not out of line)......
Hope
Hampden-Sydney (forgive me, I am a proud alumn)
Amherst
Wooster
Quote from: tigerphil on February 27, 2007, 11:02:09 AM
I am pretty sure I am going to be laughed at for at least one of these picks, but if I follow the rants at the beginning of this post (one team that shouldn't be there will be there, then I am not out of line)......
Hope
Hampden-Sydney (forgive me, I am a proud alumn)
Amherst
Wooster
If we are going to laugh at your insanity, the only one that is even remotely questionable is Hope. :)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 12:30:01 PM
Quote from: tigerphil on February 27, 2007, 11:02:09 AM
I am pretty sure I am going to be laughed at for at least one of these picks, but if I follow the rants at the beginning of this post (one team that shouldn't be there will be there, then I am not out of line)......
Hope
Hampden-Sydney (forgive me, I am a proud alumn)
Amherst
Wooster
If we are going to laugh at your insanity, the only one that is even remotely questionable is Hope. :)
This is especially funny to those who heard Coach C go off on Jared on Hoopsville last night. :)
My four at first glance and just like 2-3 weeks ago...
UW-SP
MC (go ASC--homer selection) :)
Woo
Amherst
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 12:48:43 PM
My four at first glance and just like 2-3 weeks ago...
UW-SP
MC (go ASC--homer selection)
Woo
Amherst
That's how my bracket plays out as well, although without the homer thing. I am a little worried about SP though. They seem to be vulnerable this year; that bracket is really tough.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 27, 2007, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 12:48:43 PM
My four at first glance and just like 2-3 weeks ago...
UW-SP
MC (go ASC--homer selection)
Woo
Amherst
That's how my bracket plays out as well, although without the homer thing. I am a little worried about SP though. They seem to be vulnerable this year; that bracket is really tough.
They are WIAC! As we read the posts, they are WIAC. They own a Final Four bid by coronation. :) ;D :D ;) 8)
Ralph
Why is Hope the only questionable one? Sorry, I havent followed the nation that much this year
Quote from: tigerphil on February 27, 2007, 06:54:27 PM
Ralph
Why is Hope the only questionable one? Sorry, I havent followed the nation that much this year
I think that Chicago beats them in the first round, plus you have all of the
Hope haters er, the Calvinists to add to Chicago fans who will have a short drive to Aurora.
I think that gym will be rocking, and the Calvin fans will just get warmed up on Hope!
As for H-SC, it probably feels good to have the Tigers back in the playoffs again.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: tigerphil on February 27, 2007, 06:54:27 PM
Ralph
Why is Hope the only questionable one? Sorry, I havent followed the nation that much this year
I think that Chicago beats them in the first round, plus you have all of the Hope haters er, the Calvinists to add to Chicago fans who will have a short drive to Aurora.
I think that gym will be rocking, and the Calvin fans will just get warmed up on Hope!
As for H-SC, it probably feels good to have the Tigers back in the playoffs again.
Well, again, I admit, I am not all that up to par on the National scene, so I just made some picks based on records and very little else.
As for HSC, I am very proud that they have made the return to the NCAA's. Its been a rough stretch for me as a fan, having been spoiled (my freshmen year, the year after the loss in 2OT in National title game), we went undefeated regular season and lost the last two, ODAC Champ and 2nd round in NCAA and my senior year we went to Final Four. However, Bubba is a great coach and finally has returned to the promised land of NCAA and hopefully back to prominence in the ODAC for years to come.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 01:14:28 PM
They are WIAC! As we read the posts, they are WIAC. They own a Final Four bid by coronation. :) ;D :D ;) 8)
I sure hope so!
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 27, 2007, 07:03:29 PM
I think that Chicago beats them in the first round, plus you have all of the Hope haters er, the Calvinists to add to Chicago fans who will have a short drive to Aurora.
I think that gym will be rocking, and the Calvin fans will just get warmed up on Hope!
As for H-SC, it probably feels good to have the Tigers back in the playoffs again.
I said the MIAA gets swept in Aurora on the NathCon page. Apparently a Calvin fan didn't appreciate that none too much! lol ;D
Point, as any Midwest/West Region team, is in a real tough bracket. As usual, Amherst get a bye! lol.
I'll go with...
Washington U. (if anyone knows me, I always pick against my Pointers)
Virginia Wesleyan
Amherst (no one else in that bracket scares me)
Rochester (just to annoy "you-know-who")
Quote from: Old School on February 27, 2007, 07:54:14 PM
I'll go with...
Washington U. (if anyone knows me, I always pick against my Pointers)
Virginia Wesleyan
Amherst (no one else in that bracket scares me)
Rochester (just to annoy "you-know-who")
Excuse me while I go modify your post... :D :D :P
Just kidding!!! I mean, this way I'm more likely to win! :) :) :)
DHF,
Did you post yours yet?
No, I have to do some massive DIII tournament contemplating tonight or tomorrow night first. :D
Capital
Wash U
Mississippi C
Ramapo
Why? Just for the heck of it. ;D
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 28, 2007, 06:45:26 AM
Capital
Wash U
Mississippi C
Ramapo
Why? Just for the heck of it.
Good call with Capital; they are a very under-the-radar squad, but I've been impressed all year with their abilities.
I think it is a good call with Ramapo also, they will be in my final four picks.
I remember seeing rumors that some work was being done on the Salem Civic Center. What have they been working on?
...Hopefully I'll have cause to go see it myself again this year!
New scoreboards. 1960s padding gone from the far walls. Seats on both sides have been replaced.
There might be more but that's what I saw when I was there for the Stagg Bowl.
My picks for the Final Four are:
Wisc. Stevens Point
Lincoln ;D
Ramapo
Capital
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 28, 2007, 01:59:05 PM
New scoreboards. 1960s padding gone from the far walls. Seats on both sides have been replaced.
There might be more but that's what I saw when I was there for the Stagg Bowl.
That's good, those seats were horrible. lol
I'm glad to see some people picking Ramapo to make it to Salem. I originally had Amherst winning that sectional, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought that a team like Ramapo could be trouble for Amherst. So my Final Four looks like this:
Wooster (of course ;D)
Ramapo
Stephens Point
Miss College
As for those of you picking Cap, they are probably the team that makes me most nervous along Wooster's road to get to Salem along with JCU. They are young and really seem to be playing with a chip on their shoulders defying all the naysayers as they prove them wrong. They were picked 5th in the preseason OAC poll which tells you something. They also have all 5 starters returning next season, so they have even more to look forward to. Thankfully though, if there is a meeting between Cap and Wooster, the game will be in the friendly confines of Timken Gym for the Scots!
Quote from: PrideSportBBallGuy on February 26, 2007, 03:06:02 PM
Ok as diehard fan mentioned I should post my final 4 here.
UW-Steven Point
VA Wesleyan
Amherst
Wooster
For Sh@&s and giggles here is the "upset special" final 4. (I am still keeping my intial final 4.)
Lake Erie
Villa Julie
Stevens
Calvin
That most definitely is a very UPSET special Final Four, (Stevens, probably the last bubble team to make it)
Hah... well, I just did my bracket, but while I picked some upsets along the way, I ended up with...
Stevens Point
Va Wes
Amherst
Wooster
And Point winning it all. And yes, I think I just bored myself with my answers. ::)
We'll make my bizarre random wish list of other teams I'd enjoy seeing get there:
St. Thomas/Augie/Hope
Oxy/Hood/Villa Julie
Coast Guard/Trinity
Wooster/Transy
Augie over Va Wes (CCIW revenge for last year!)
Wooster over Amherst (continue Witt's pattern)
Augie over Woo (as IWU would've done to Witt, if Va Wes had not so RUDELY interrupted!)
(So I'm an overachiever - why just pick the FF, when you can SEE the whole FF action?! ;D ;))
Coast Guard leaving Rhode Island is a huge dream, definatly should be on your WISH list. If they make it out of the first round, BRANDEIS or trinity will handle them with ease.
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools (I have no idea why), and my mother warned me to "watch out for the acadamies" sound advice, however this is one piece of motherly advice I think I will choose to ignore.
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools
Excuse me? ??? ::) :-\
Ok, here goes.
Ramapo
Brockport St
Va Wes
UWSP
Quote from: diehardfan on March 01, 2007, 01:10:57 AM
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools
Excuse me? ??? ::) :-\
This CLEARLY doesn't apply to you April. You know MUCH more than a little. I have always found it interesting, though, when it appears that a random pick of games for pools (especially the D-1 pools) can perform better than calculated picks...!
DieHard, That was clearly not aimed at you. Anyone who has been on this site knows that much.
Point
'Herst
Wooster
Miss Coll
Amherst and Wooster don't have very tough brackets. SP is pretty darn good. Miss Coll has lost 2 games by a total of 4 points.
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools
I think what he is saying is that he knows that YOU know so much that you'll tank in the pick em pool! lol ;D :D ;) :P
Quote from: formerbant10 on March 01, 2007, 02:46:05 AM
DieHard, That was clearly not aimed at you. Anyone who has been on this site knows that much.
Ha ha! April picks like a bo-oy! April picks like a bo-oy!
[/inner child]
Augustana
Virginia Wesleyan
Amherst
Wooster
[Augustana over Virginia Wesleyan, Woo over Amherst; Woo over Augustana]
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 01, 2007, 02:32:51 AM
Quote from: diehardfan on March 01, 2007, 01:10:57 AM
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools
Excuse me? ??? ::) :-\
This CLEARLY doesn't apply to you April. You know MUCH more than a little. I have always found it interesting, though, when it appears that a random pick of games for pools (especially the D-1 pools) can perform better than calculated picks...!
Does that mean the NCAA doesn't know how to set a field of 65? ;). haha
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 01, 2007, 02:32:51 AM
Quote from: diehardfan on March 01, 2007, 01:10:57 AM
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools
Excuse me? ??? ::) :-\
This CLEARLY doesn't apply to you April. You know MUCH more than a little. I have always found it interesting, though, when it appears that a random pick of games for pools (especially the D-1 pools) can perform better than calculated picks...!
Thanks for the compliment, but that wasn't my aim in that post! The point was that he chose to state that it was women who this happens to, when we know full well that I am not the only woman who cares about DIII basketball (just one of the few publically female posters on the board) , and there are probably literally
millions of guys who know nothing about basketball who still fill out a dumb office pool DI bracket and do well.... certainly more than women from a sheer numbers perspective. Your statement is obviously extremely different than his. :)
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 01, 2007, 07:26:54 AMHa ha! April picks like a bo-oy! April picks like a bo-oy!
[/inner child]
You're just bitter cause I whooped you in the CCIW Fantasy League final standings.
wheatonhoops.googlepages.com/standings (http://wheatonhoops.googlepages.com/standings) :P
At least you picked like a
girl in the CCIW pickem league. :D And now I'm going to shut up before I sound like a lame feminazi. ::)
Someone actually keeping track of this?
Everyone's Final Four picks so we don't have to scroll back. No big deal, it's not like it has to be official or anything! :P
I'm pretty sure no one is. :D Maybe I'll do it if I get the time at some point :)
UWSP
VWC
Amherst
Wooster
UWSP
Wooster
UWSP
Well, one of my Final Four teams is out HSC, but I am a proud alumn, if HSC weren't in that Sectional, I would have picked VWC, but alas I picked my alma mater and I have no shame (you have to have one cinderella)
Quote from: frodotwo on March 01, 2007, 06:25:53 PM
UWSP
VWC
Amherst
Wooster
UWSP
Wooster
UWSP
You can't play now! lol ;D :D ;) :)
Quote from: Old School on March 05, 2007, 12:26:47 AM
Quote from: frodotwo on March 01, 2007, 06:25:53 PM
UWSP
VWC
Amherst
Wooster
UWSP
Wooster
UWSP
You can't play now! lol ;D :D ;) :)
How come, didn't I make it before anyone tipped off :'( :'(
Who will take home the Walnut and Bronze?
I think this is Amherst's best team of the three that have been to the final four in the last four years. I think they have the size to handle some larger interior players, which they have certainly lacked in the past. Although their half-court game is unspectacular, they play strong defense and can outrun anybody. Between Olson, Wheeler and Hopkins and strong supporting players like Baskauskas and McLaughliln, I think Wooster will have their hands full. Can't wait to get down to Salem.
There were 15 entrants to the final four pickems (including frodotwo whose picks were indeed before the first tip-off). The picks (winners in bold):
Amherst 11, Ramapo 4
UWSP 10, Augustana 2, Wash U 2, Hope 1
Wooster 11, Capital 2, Brockport 1, Rochester 1
Va Wes 7, Miss Col 6, HSC 1, Lincoln 1
Because of the overwhelming support for Amherst and Woo (and, negatively, for UWSP), 6 posters went 3-1, but no one went 4-0. The winners are:
PrideSportBBallGuy, diehardfan, and frodotwo - all with Va Wes, Woo, Amherst, and UWSP
Mr. Ypsi and pufin - both with Va Wes, Woo, Amherst, and Augie, and
Old School - with Va Wes, Amherst, Wash U (though as an attempted jinx for the sake of UWSP!), and Rochester
Ralph,
What happened to the mighty ASC at Va. Wesleyan?
You know I have to let you have it now, because when football rolls back around, me and my ODAC brethren haven't a leg to stand on. At least we didn't last year. ;D
And now it's off to the brainiacs-who-want-to-secede thread to point out that Wash. U. and Amherst are in the final four.
Wooster-Amherst is the 6pm game. Wash U-Va Wesleyan is 8pm.
I visited the 4 team websites this morning and compiled their stats into one file.
Its available here in Excel format
http://www.jtaswell.com/D3BB/2007_FinalFour_Stats.xls
And here in html
http://www.jtaswell.com/D3BB/2007_FinalFour_Stats.htm
I'm sorry I just have to respond to this...
Quote from: ILive4This on March 01, 2007, 12:02:48 AM
The only thing that scares me, is women who know little about basketball often do really well in march madness pools (I have no idea why)
Wow... what a statement. April, I agree with you. A lot of women know a lot about basketball, even more than some men :o And many men who know nothing about basketball do well on polls.
There may be more women on this website than you'd think... :-X
I just listened to Pat's podcast interview with Amherst's coach Dave Hixon. At the end he talks about how difficult it was for him to coach while he was restricted to a wheelchair with his leg in a cast, and I had to wonder what would have happened if Amherst had been sent to play a sectional at St. John Fisher. The players there sit on the front row of the bleachers, so obviously there's no room for him to be in a wheelchair behind the "bench." Plus the sidelines are so narrow that players inbounding the ball on the bench side generally had to have bench players move aside to make room, so I don't think there even would have been room for the coach to be on the bench with crutches and a leg cast, nor would it have been particularly safe for him to try it. It wouldn't have been fair to make him coach from all the way down in the corner, which seems to be the only place where there'd have been room for him in that condition.
I wonder if the NCAA would have taken these peculiar circumstances into account when deciding on host schools, had the questions been relevant at the time? Just a rhetorical question.
I don't know the answer to your question, David, but I do know accomodations can be made for special circumstances. I witnessed a game where one of the head coaches had a bad case of laryngitis. The referees granted that coach the ability to leave the coaching box in order to get a ref's attention to call timeout. They were clear that she could not leave the box to instruct her team or dispute a call.
Now, if the other coach would have had laryngitis, it would have been a perfectly peaceful game to watch. *rimshot* ;)
Well, between work and wife, I am officially out of the trip to Salem from St Louis.... refresh my memory - what is at accessibility to the men's semis on Friday night on the net- video?, audio? live stats?
Is Saturday's game on CSTV?
Quote from: hopefan on March 12, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Well, between work and wife, I am officially out of the trip to Salem from St Louis.... refresh my memory - what is at accessibility to the men's semis on Friday night on the net- video?, audio? live stats?
Is Saturday's game on CSTV?
Live Stats and Video Friday. Both are available off the official site of the Final Four(it's some derivative of odaconline)
Saturday's game is on CSTV. There will still be live stats online.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 12, 2007, 02:44:59 PM
I just listened to Pat's podcast interview with Amherst's coach Dave Hixon. At the end he talks about how difficult it was for him to coach while he was restricted to a wheelchair with his leg in a cast, and I had to wonder what would have happened if Amherst had been sent to play a sectional at St. John Fisher. The players there sit on the front row of the bleachers, so obviously there's no room for him to be in a wheelchair behind the "bench." Plus the sidelines are so narrow that players inbounding the ball on the bench side generally had to have bench players move aside to make room, so I don't think there even would have been room for the coach to be on the bench with crutches and a leg cast, nor would it have been particularly safe for him to try it. It wouldn't have been fair to make him coach from all the way down in the corner, which seems to be the only place where there'd have been room for him in that condition.
I wonder if the NCAA would have taken these peculiar circumstances into account when deciding on host schools, had the questions been relevant at the time? Just a rhetorical question.
Rhetorical or not----You MUST be kidding
You have been around a long time David----Do YOU think they would have taken something like that into consideration? That would involve some thought/reasoning on their part you know. ;)
Quote from: jagluski on March 12, 2007, 04:31:46 PM
Quote from: hopefan on March 12, 2007, 03:58:32 PM
Well, between work and wife, I am officially out of the trip to Salem from St Louis.... refresh my memory - what is at accessibility to the men's semis on Friday night on the net- video?, audio? live stats?
Is Saturday's game on CSTV?
Live Stats and Video Friday. Both are available off the official site of the Final Four(it's some derivative of odaconline)
Saturday's game is on CSTV. There will still be live stats online.
We'll have those links on our Audio page, since it's our guys on the call.
I didn't know where else to put this, but I thought some people might like to know that people outside of the D3hoops world are noticing you:
QuoteBlogging is huge in the newspaper biz these days. So everyone's trying to link to what's news, both on and off the beaten path. USA Today, on Friday, picked up some Bluffton baseball news and the D3hoops.com story on Lincoln, which happened to be written by yours truly in my yearly foray into basketball, when Pat and the gang has more stories to write than writers.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2007/03/09/index.html
(scroll down a bit)
What's interesting is that I had nothing to do with linking the blog to that story. In other words, they would have found it just the same if I didn't work here.
I had heard that CSTV offers internet broadcasting for a fee. Is this true? Unfortunately, I can't make the trip to Salem this weekend because of family obligations. :-[ I just was wondering if there was any way to watch the finals over the net. It'd be much easier if ESPNU would finally step up and buy the rights to all of the NCAA Championships at every level! This CSTV thing just irks me!
Any idea were the Wooster team or fans will be staying in Salem/Roanoke this weekend?
Also anyone wishing to view video on Amherst may go to http://www.d3cast.com/archive.php (http://www.d3cast.com/archive.php) and see video of them playing Williams in the NESCAC Championship game
The internet broadcast will be free.
Keith -- had no idea you/we got picked up. Awesome!
Quote from: woolax on March 12, 2007, 07:25:51 PM
Any idea were the Wooster team or fans will be staying in Salem/Roanoke this weekend?
Also anyone wishing to view video on Amherst may go to http://www.d3cast.com/archive.php (http://www.d3cast.com/archive.php) and see video of them playing Williams in the NESCAC Championship game
Answered your question on the NCAC page...
The historical tale of the tape for this year's Final Four:
| school | apps | 1st app | E8 | F4 | 1-2-3-4 | W-L | pct |
| Wooster | 16 | 1978 | 3 | 2 | 0-0-1-0 | 17-15 | .531 |
| Virginia Wesleyan | 7 | 1978 | 2 | 2 | 1-0-0-0 | 11-7 | .611 |
| Washington (MO) | 12 | 1987 | 3 | 1 | 0-0-0-0 | 15-11 | .577 |
| Amherst | 10 | 1994 | 5 | 3 | 0-0-0-2 | 18-11 | .621 |
The presence of Final Four newbie Wash U in Salem next weekend continues an interesting trend in the D3 tournament. Of the 33 Final Fours, all but one have contained at least one school that had never been to a D3 Final Four before. The only all-veteran Final Four in D3 tournament history took place in 1992 (Calvin, Rochester, New Jersey City, and UW-Platteville). All four of those programs had made one previous foray into the last weekend of the season. This really speaks as to how new blood constantly forces its way to the top in D3 men's basketball, even though Wash U is hardly a newcomer to the tournament itself.
The reverse is also true to a degree -- it's very difficult to keep the veterans out. There have only been two all-newbie Final Fours. Naturally, the first-ever Final Four in 1975 (LeMoyne-Owen, Rowan, Augustana, and Brockport State) is one of them. The other is the 1978 Final Four: North Park, Widener, Albion, and Stony Brook State were each making their first-ever trip to Banner Weekend that March.
Virginia Wesleyan's presence signals another trend, that of a school that has already won a national championship appearing in the Final Four. Two-thirds (22 of 33) of D3's Final Fours have involved at least one school that already owns a copy of the Big Doorstop. And 25 of the 33 have involved at least one school that had previously made it as far as the national championship game.
One other interesting trend to note is that of schools making back-to-back Final Four appearances. Virginia Wesleyan and Amherst become the sixteenth and seventeenth schools in D3 tourney history to make Final Four runs in consecutive seasons. But this is only the second time ever that
two schools have accomplished the back-to-back feat in the same Final Four. In March of 1986, Potsdam State and Nebrasks Wesleyan returned to Grand Rapids after having finished second and third, respectively, the previous March.
Virginia Wesleyan is the ninth Final Four team to have a shot at repeating a championship. The previous repeat aspirants:
| school | year | finish |
| Scranton | 1977 | third |
| North Park | 1979 | first |
| North Park | 1980 | first |
| Potsdam State | 1982 | second |
| UW-Platteville | 1992 | third |
| UW-Platteville | 1999 | first |
| Williams | 2004 | second |
| UW-Stevens Point | 2005 | first |
| Virginia Wesleyan | 2007 | ? |
Greg---
Good stuff. Thank you!
Here are the teams to make it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem, VA Era (1995-96 to present)...
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006)
Williams 4 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004)
Amherst 3 (2004, 2006, 2007)
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005)
Hope 2 (1996, 1998)
Franklin & Marshall 2 (1996, 2000)
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003)
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005)
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999)
UW-Stevens Point 2 (2004, 2005)
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2007)
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001)
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007)
Alvernia 1 (1997)
Carthage 1 (2002)
Catholic 1 (2001)
Connecticut College 1 (1999)
Elizabethtown 1 (2002)
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003)
John Carroll 1 (2004)
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997)
Ohio Northern 1 (2001)
Otterbein 1 (2002)
Rowan 1 (1996)
Salem St 1 (2000)
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000)
Washington U. 1 (2007)
Wilkes 1 (1997)
Wittenberg 1 (2006)
York (Pa) 1 (2005)
Quote from: Titan Q on March 13, 2007, 01:22:35 PM
Here are the teams to make it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem, VA Era (1995-96 to present)...
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006)
Twice in one year? That's rather impressive! I guess my alma mater(Wash U) is facing a more formidable opponent than I thought!
Quote from: jagluski on March 13, 2007, 01:30:23 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on March 13, 2007, 01:22:35 PM
Here are the teams to make it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem, VA Era (1995-96 to present)...
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006)
Twice in one year? That's rather impressive! I guess my alma mater(Wash U) is facing a more formidable opponent than I thought!
Corrected...thanks!
Streaming video for all four games this weekend in Salem:
http://all-access.cstv.com/cstv/player/player.html?code=cs (http://all-access.cstv.com/cstv/player/player.html?code=cs)
Go to the CSTV.com link above, click on men's basketball on the bottom of the page, then click on the image to enter (or vice versa). Look on the right column for the game. It's free, but you have to register...
The catch is you need to be a PC user with Internet Explorer 6 or 7. Mac users are out of luck.
Most of the D-I March madness games can also be watched on the same player for free, now that CSTV is owned by CBS.
Here is a link to Wooster's Final Four website (http://athletics.wooster.edu/mb/news/2006-07/final4/default.php). Safe travels to all of you who are heading to Salem. :)
Good luck to all the teams this year at Salem, especially Washington U. in the semis. My wish is for them to win and then lose in the final, for historical reasons. :D ;) :) ;D
While doing a bit of clean-up this morning, I ran across my copy of Street & Smith's College Basketball 2006-07 Yearbook. In their pre-season rankings, they had Wooster #1, Va. Wesleyan #3, and Amherst #6. Wash. U. was neither ranked in their top 10 nor listed in their 36 "Possible Breakthroughs."
Here's what Chuck Mistovich of
Basketball Times had to say about the three ranked semifinalists:
Quote from: Street & Smith's
1. Wooster
Four starters and 11 lettermen return for Coach Steve Moore's team, which is the winningest program (171-26) for all Dicision III schools during the current decade. Returning All-Americans James Cooper (19.2 points per game) and Tom Port (15.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg) are two huge reasons the Fighting Scots are No. 1. Tim Vandervaart (14.9, 8.7) and four other key players each scored more than 200 points last season, so the Ohio team has all of the pieces of the puzzle to go all the way. Moore says he wants his club to be more physical this year.
3. Virginia Wesleyan
The Marlins open the new season with a 28-game winning streak, which carried Coach Dave Macedo's club to the national title last year. Everything is in place for another championship run, with 10 of the top 11 scorers returning. All-American Brandon Adair (18.8 ppg, 6.4 rpg) leads the way, with help from 6-1 TonTon Balenga (12.5 ppg) and 6-5 Tyler Fantin (10.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg).
6. Amherst
Three starters and 10 lettermen are back from a 28-4 club, so everything is looking solid for the Jeffs. Coach David Hixon will build his program around 6-5 Dan Wheeler (14.5 ppf, 4.4 rpg), 6-0 Andrew Olson (9.4 ppg, 5.6 apg) and 6-7 Dan O'Shea (5.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg).
VWC's Adair and Wooster's Cooper were on the pre-season All-America first team; VWC's Balenga and Wooster's Port were on the second team, and Amherst's Wheeler was given honorable mention.
Quote from: David Collinge on March 15, 2007, 03:40:47 PM
While doing a bit of clean-up this morning, I ran across my copy of Street & Smith's College Basketball 2006-07 Yearbook. In their pre-season rankings, they had Wooster #1, Va. Wesleyan #3, and Amherst #6. Wash. U. was neither ranked in their top 10 nor listed in their 36 "Possible Breakthroughs."
Don't forget that the D3Hoops poll had Virginia Wesleyan, Wooster, and Amherst as #1, #2, and #3 for the preseason poll (and week).
Quote from: pabegg on March 15, 2007, 04:15:33 PM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 15, 2007, 03:40:47 PM
While doing a bit of clean-up this morning, I ran across my copy of Street & Smith's College Basketball 2006-07 Yearbook. In their pre-season rankings, they had Wooster #1, Va. Wesleyan #3, and Amherst #6. Wash. U. was neither ranked in their top 10 nor listed in their 36 "Possible Breakthroughs."
Don't forget that the D3Hoops poll had Virginia Wesleyan, Wooster, and Amherst as #1, #2, and #3 for the preseason poll (and week).
And WashU got three points, behind 59 other teams, including Cortland State, a squad that went 10-16 this year.
I don't want to toot my horn too much, but I just wanted to let ya'll know that I picked all four final 4 teams correctly, moving my rank in the d3 bracket challenege up approximately 600 places in the process. How many people also picked all four?
As for the games...DO NOT COUNT WASH U OUT...I'd dare say they play with more poise than anyone in the tourney and they have three weapons who are all very difficult to stop. If they can stay out of foul trouble, they might be the toughest out in the tourney. Go Bears.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 15, 2007, 04:21:43 PM
Quote from: pabegg on March 15, 2007, 04:15:33 PM
Quote from: David Collinge on March 15, 2007, 03:40:47 PM
While doing a bit of clean-up this morning, I ran across my copy of Street & Smith's College Basketball 2006-07 Yearbook. In their pre-season rankings, they had Wooster #1, Va. Wesleyan #3, and Amherst #6. Wash. U. was neither ranked in their top 10 nor listed in their 36 "Possible Breakthroughs."
Don't forget that the D3Hoops poll had Virginia Wesleyan, Wooster, and Amherst as #1, #2, and #3 for the preseason poll (and week).
And WashU got three votes, behind 59 other teams, including Cortland State, a squad that went 10-16 this year.
Not three votes ... three
points. They all came from the same pollster; Q had the Bears #23 on his preseason ballot. Nobody else thought to give a nod to Wash U.
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 15, 2007, 06:15:17 PM
As for the games...DO NOT COUNT WASH U OUT...
I don't think anyone is counted out. As has been said quite often this season, there isn't a runaway team, there are simply a lot of teams playing at a about the same level. I don't recall it being discussed as much last season, but I think it was much the same... there was not a runaway team. And look at the results:
National Semi-finals:
Va W. over IWU 71-68
Witt over Amh 64-60
3rd place game
IWU over Amh 71-68
Va W over Witt 59-56
That's a total of 13 points in 4 games. I haven't looked at other seasons, but if that isn't a record for a single season's series of games in Salem, then it would greatly surprise me.
And that was the year after the largest margin of victory in Finals history, when UWSP dispensed with Rochester 73-49.
This year is going to be one like last year, I think... four close, tightly fought games.
The scoreboard operator is not too crisp with the scoring changes.
I also miss the clock.
We need to the technology to catch up with the expectations...game clock, shot clock, etc. :)
Congrats to Amherst, way to get the Final Four monkey off your back.
Wash U dictating the pace in the 2nd game - up 28-25 at half
Virginia Wes pulls it out. >:(
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 15, 2007, 06:15:17 PM
I don't want to toot my horn too much, but I just wanted to let ya'll know that I picked all four final 4 teams correctly, moving my rank in the d3 bracket challenege up approximately 600 places in the process. How many people also picked all four?
I was considering those four, but I went out on a limb for my submitted bracket and lost. I did get the entire Wooster Region correct. That's something to hold onto for next year.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2007, 08:27:48 PM
The scoreboard operator is not too crisp with the scoring changes.
I also miss the clock.
We need to the technology to catch up with the expectations...game clock, shot clock, etc. :)
Ralph, from what I heard from people at the table, the scoreboard operator was more concerned about getting the clock right instead of getting distracted getting an extra point on the board.
The teams, fans, and everyone I think understood it was a two point lead and if they want to make sure they start the clock at the right time, etc... then I can understand a delay getting the point on the board. It didn't make a difference in the long run anyway, because the scoreboard is NOT official anyway!
They did a good job with new technology... I wouldn't be surprised if we see even more changes at the score table in the future.
Great job on the broadcast yesterday, Dave dmac and Pat. Really well done.
Va Wesleyan getting dominated so far. 56-40 with 11:20 to play. Without a little Ton Ton magic, this thing is over.
I am a little disappointed we made it through the whole weekend without even one passing reference to Borat, whose infamous Rodeo National Anthem took place at none other than the Salem Civic Center; although I doubt that's in the press guide.
I said this on the NESCAC board but I think it applies on a national level anyway:
I found another reason why I love D3 basketball. Where but in D3 can every fan who came to the championship game go out on to the floor to celebrate with the winning team? I give the Amherst players tremendous props for making sure that every student in attendence got a chance to hold the walnut and bronze in the post-game celebration. Do you think every Florida fan at the Final Four got that chance last year?
Quote from: mrmike88 on March 19, 2007, 02:52:55 PM
Do you think every Florida fan at the Final Four got that chance last year?
Do you think every Florida walkon got that chance?
Quote from: mrmike88 on March 19, 2007, 02:52:55 PM
I said this on the NESCAC board but I think it applies on a national level anyway:
I found another reason why I love D3 basketball. Where but in D3 can every fan who came to the championship game go out on to the floor to celebrate with the winning team? I give the Amherst players tremendous props for making sure that every student in attendance got a chance to hold the walnut and bronze in the post-game celebration. Do you think every Florida fan at the Final Four got that chance last year?
Totally. The fact that I was in the fifth row right on the half court line, and my ticket for all four games cost 20 dollars isn't a bad perk either!
My favorite part of watching the Amherst fans celebrate were all the little kids that kept picking up the confetti scattered on the floor and throwing it up into the air and dancing around in it. Noticed that a few players staged photo shoots for themselves like that too... pretty fun. :)
Quote from: mrmike88 on March 19, 2007, 02:52:55 PM
I said this on the NESCAC board but I think it applies on a national level anyway:
I found another reason why I love D3 basketball. Where but in D3 can every fan who came to the championship game go out on to the floor to celebrate with the winning team? I give the Amherst players tremendous props for making sure that every student in attendence got a chance to hold the walnut and bronze in the post-game celebration. Do you think every Florida fan at the Final Four got that chance last year?
The first year Point won, Point fans were able to go out on the floor. In 2005, we weren't, if I remember correctly, not until at least after the trophy presentation. In fact, since I didn't have "credentials", I couldn't even bring in my zoom lens for my camera. What kind of crap is that? >:(
Speaking of pictures... Here's a tipoff from the semis of the final four... fun stuff. Is it time for the 07-08 Final Four yet???!?!?!
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi108.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn13%2Fgodspoetry%2Ftipoff.jpg&hash=1c16c95c58298d8a8d57b0cf644ae735b045598c)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n13/godspoetry/tipoff.jpg
Just decided to merge topics.
So, who is the favorite?
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 16, 2008, 01:59:33 PM
Just decided to merge topics.
So, who is the favorite?
Thanks for merging the topics.
WashU.
As a Wash.U. fan, I'd say Amherst and Hope are the favorites.
Tough to bet against the defending champs
I've never seen Amherst play defense like they did yesterday vs. Brandeis. They are gonna be tough to beat if they bring the same intensity to Salem.
Quote from: La Verdad on March 16, 2008, 06:05:13 PM
I've never seen Amherst play defense like they did yesterday vs. Brandeis. They are gonna be tough to beat if they bring the same intensity to Salem.
I saw Amherst play Brandeis twice, and they were basically a completely different team in the second half yesterday than the three halves prior. The official stats said 12 blocks, but trust me it was probably much closer to 20. It seems to me that it's just an issue of motivation for them. When Amherst brings it's A game, they won't lose. I think the only thing that could stop them is the fact that the players seem to know that, and as a result at times they just think they can turn it on when they need to and be fine. If Amherst just goes through the motions for a half, a team could really take it to them if they played an A+ game themselves. But when the Lord Jeffs do turn it on, watch out. I think two 17-0 runs in back to back games shows what they can do....when they want to
Quote from: La Verdad on March 16, 2008, 06:05:13 PM
I've never seen Amherst play defense like they did yesterday vs. Brandeis. They are gonna be tough to beat if they bring the same intensity to Salem.
they were never better...i think they felt threatened and realized brandeis was a very good team that was ready to take them out. i think the judges shot under 30% in the second half. they are an outstanding team...i wonder who would win a seven game series?
Quote from: theBroadcaster on March 16, 2008, 06:32:37 PM
Quote from: La Verdad on March 16, 2008, 06:05:13 PM
I've never seen Amherst play defense like they did yesterday vs. Brandeis. They are gonna be tough to beat if they bring the same intensity to Salem.
I saw Amherst play Brandeis twice, and they were basically a completely different team in the second half yesterday than the three halves prior. The official stats said 12 blocks, but trust me it was probably much closer to 20. It seems to me that it's just an issue of motivation for them. When Amherst brings it's A game, they won't lose. I think the only thing that could stop them is the fact that the players seem to know that, and as a result at times they just think they can turn it on when they need to and be fine. If Amherst just goes through the motions for a half, a team could really take it to them if they played an A+ game themselves. But when the Lord Jeffs do turn it on, watch out. I think two 17-0 runs in back to back games shows what they can do....when they want to
broadcaster i agree 100%...the jeffs have had so much success, esp. the seniors, that it was hard to stay highly motivated this year. as a group they are pretty motivated but when the seniors have avg. 28 wins the last 3 years it becomes difficult to find new and exciting challenges. brandeis provided that type of challenge. after watching the 1st half, i knew it would take a superior half of basketball to beat them. they are very good.
holsey really came in late in the 1st half and provided a lift with energy and defense. hopkins lifted the jeffs in the 2nd half. his defensive presence was excellent and he attacked the rim with passion. the guys really fed off of him. i thought he jumpstarted the in the 2nd half.
Does anyone know how many people the Salem Civic Center can hold???
Quote from: Dutch_Man on March 16, 2008, 08:37:54 PM
Does anyone know how many people the Salem Civic Center can hold???
I think it's about 6,800. I was about to say "they'll be plenty of room," but then I remembered Hope was in it and might bring the entire population of Holland, MI down with them.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2008, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: Dutch_Man on March 16, 2008, 08:37:54 PM
Does anyone know how many people the Salem Civic Center can hold???
I think it's about 6,800. I was about to say "they'll be plenty of room," but then I remembered Hope was in it and might bring the entire population of Holland, MI down with them.
I thought it was around 4,500.
The population of Holland proper is 35,000.......there are about 100,000+ living within 15 miles of Hope College.
"We're gonna need a bigger boat."
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 16, 2008, 09:10:58 PM
Quote from: Dutch_Man on March 16, 2008, 08:37:54 PM
Does anyone know how many people the Salem Civic Center can hold???
I think it's about 6,800. I was about to say "they'll be plenty of room," but then I remembered Hope was in it and might bring the entire population of Holland, MI down with them.
I'd guess the average attendance for the national championship games in Salem (since 1996) has been less than the average per/game attendance at Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse. Plenty of room.
IWU has brought 1000 or so to Salem in '96, 97, 01, and 06 - Hope's traveling crew is about the same.
Salem Civic Center
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Salem Civic Center is a 6,820-seat multi-purpose arena in Salem, Virginia. It was built in 1967 and is part of the James E. Taliaferro Sports and Entertainment Complex (named after a former mayor of Salem), which also includes the Salem Football Stadium and the Salem Memorial Baseball Stadium. The Salem Civic Center was originally known as the Salem-Roanoke County Civic Center, but the county withdrew its financial backing in the 1980s.
The civic center was home to the Salem Rebels ice hockey team in the 1970s. The NCAA Division III men's college basketball championship is currently held at the civic center. Boxing, professional wrestling, rodeos, and high school basketball games are typical events.
In addition to sporting events, the Salem Civic Center also hosts concerts, circuses, conventions and trade shows. The annual Roanoke Valley Horse Show and Salem Fair are held at the civic center and the adjacent grounds. It is also currently the largest convention facility in the Roanoke Valley; there is a total of 40,000 square feet (4,000 m²) of space in the main arena, the community room (which can be divided into three smaller rooms) and three other rooms.
In January 2005, Sacha Baron Cohen posed as a Kazakh immigrant grateful to be living in America and persuaded promoters of a rodeo visiting the civic center to allow him to sing The Star Spangled Banner. Cohen delivered Anti-American remarks before singing an altered version of the national anthem which concluded with "home of the grave" in place of "home of the brave." The crowd responded with a mixture of boos and bemusement before Cohen and his film crew were escorted from the arena. The incident is shown in eponymous film Borat. Organizers of the event invited the ambassador of Kazakhstan to the 2007 rodeo, but the invitation was declined.
That 6,820 must be for concerts -- the basketball configuration is more like 6,000.
Does anyone know what the quality of the video will be for the Final Four broadcast? I'm thinking of hooking my computer up to our video projector and watching the games in large scale, but I won't bother if the quality won't be good enough.
I wish that I could be in Salem this year after going last year to see WashU play, but I'm still laid up and unable to drive that far.
If I get the video going, anyone who's in northeastern Massachusetts is welcome to join me!
Northeast Mass... sure you aren't in Maine? Most of those who live near my parents in Down East Maine do refer to southern Maine as Northern Mass! :)
My memory serves that the vide is VERY good. But don't quote me!
The historical tale of the tape for this year's Final Four:
| school | apps | 1st app | E8 | F4 (years) | 1-2-3-4 | W-L | pct |
| Hope | 19 | 1982 | 4 | 3 ('96, '98, '08) | 0-2-0-0 | 25-20 | .555 |
| Ursinus | 7 | 1980 | 3 | 2 ('81, '08) | 0-0-1-0 | 11-7 | .611 |
| Washington (MO) | 13 | 1987 | 4 | 2 ('07, '08) | 0-0-1-0 | 20-12 | .625 |
| Amherst | 11 | 1994 | 6 | 4 ('04, '06, '07, '08) | 1-0-0-2 | 23-11 | .676 |
Amherst has accomplished something really special even before it takes the floor next Friday. The Lord Jeffs are only the second program in D3 tournament history to make three consecutive trips to the Final Four. Only North Park's threepeat national champions in '78, '79, and '80 have previously achieved that feat.
There are no Final Four newbies this March, bucking the trend in the D3 tournament. Of the 34 Final Fours, this is only the second that hasn't contained at least one school that had never been to a D3 Final Four before. The only other all-veteran Final Four in D3 tournament history took place in 1992 (Calvin, Rochester, New Jersey City, and UW-Platteville). All four of those programs had made one previous foray into the last weekend of the season.
Amherst's presence signals another trend, that of a school that has already won a national championship appearing in the Final Four. Over two-thirds (23 of 34) of D3's Final Fours have involved at least one school that already owns a copy of the Big Doorstop. And 26 of the 34 have involved at least one school that had previously made it as far as the national championship game.
One other interesting trend to note is that of schools making back-to-back Final Four appearances. Amherst and Washington (MO) become the eighteenth and nineteenth teams in D3 tourney history to make Final Four runs in consecutive seasons. But this is only the third time ever that
two schools have accomplished the back-to-back feat in the same Final Four. In March of 1986, Potsdam State and Nebraska Wesleyan returned to Grand Rapids after having finished second and third, respectively, the previous March. And last season, Virginia Wesleyan and Amherst both returned to Salem after having finished first and fourth, respectively, in '06.
Amherst is the tenth Final Four participant to have a shot at repeating a championship. The list:
| school | year | finish |
| Scranton | 1977 | third |
| North Park | 1979 | first |
| North Park | 1980 | first |
| Potsdam State | 1982 | second |
| UW-Platteville | 1992 | third |
| UW-Platteville | 1999 | first |
| Williams | 2004 | second |
| UW-Stevens Point | 2005 | first |
| Virginia Wesleyan | 2007 | fourth |
| Amherst | 2008 | ? |
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on March 17, 2008, 12:54:04 AM
Northeast Mass... sure you aren't in Maine? Most of those who live near my parents in Down East Maine do refer to southern Maine as Northern Mass! :)
Well, we can see Maine from here in Gloucester, but we're still part of Massachusetts last time I looked. Still, I have an ex-boss who commutes from southern Maine to Boston, so I can see how the Downeasters think that!
A great article (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/459287C0FE27A78E8625740E00161A6B?OpenDocument) by Bryan Burwell from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch yesterday. It reminded me of this 2001 Dave Kindred piece (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_13_225/ai_72609814) in Sporting News.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2008, 04:47:40 AM
The historical tale of the tape for this year's Final Four:
| school | apps | 1st app | E8 | F4 (years) | 1-2-3-4 | W-L | pct |
| Hope | 19 | 1982 | 4 | 3 ('96, '98, '08) | 0-2-0-0 | 25-20 | .555 |
| Ursinus | 7 | 1980 | 3 | 2 ('81, '08) | 0-0-1-0 | 11-7 | .611 |
| Washington (MO) | 13 | 1987 | 4 | 2 ('07, '08) | 0-0-1-0 | 20-12 | .625 |
| Amherst | 11 | 1994 | 6 | 4 ('04, '06, '07, '08) | 1-0-0-2 | 23-11 | .676 |
Amherst is the tenth Final Four participant to have a shot at repeating a championship. The list:
| school | year | finish |
| Scranton | 1977 | third |
| North Park | 1979 | first |
| North Park | 1980 | first |
| Potsdam State | 1982 | second |
| UW-Platteville | 1992 | third |
| UW-Platteville | 1999 | first |
| Williams | 2004 | second |
| UW-Stevens Point | 2005 | first |
| Virginia Wesleyan | 2007 | fourth |
[/b]
GS, i think va. wes. finished 2nd.
The seating capacity for the Salem Civic Center is listed in some publication as 4,027 permanent seats. In speaking to the fine folks at the Salem Civic Center, with the addition of portable seats brought in for the tourney, they expect the capacity to be around 5,500 for this weekend's games.
Several Hope fans have reported that the allotment of Hope tickets being sold by the Civic Center in Salem are already gone. Tomorrow morning at 10am, the Hope ticket office begins selling their part of the allotment (said to be around 700 tickets).
Is there a video feed from Salem for all games Friday and Saturday on this website?????
Yes.
Have no fear (I think), there shouldn't be any problem getting a ticket to the Final Four in Salem.
If you buy tickets through the ticket office there, they just ask you what section you want...no big deal. Basically, it's general admission seating. Sit with your team's fans.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 17, 2008, 04:40:09 PM
Have no fear (I think), there shouldn't be any problem getting a ticket to the Final Four in Salem.
Is that a challenge to Hope fans to buy more tickets? ;D We can do that.
Sure! Williams had a ton there the year after they won it and played Point in the championship game...2004.
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 17, 2008, 04:41:00 PM
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 17, 2008, 04:40:09 PM
Have no fear (I think), there shouldn't be any problem getting a ticket to the Final Four in Salem.
Is that a challenge to Hope fans to buy more tickets? ;D We can do that.
Do it!
Hope, Platteville, Calvin, Stevens Point, Hampden-Sydney, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan have shown up the best in Salem over the years.
Quote from: dumezrules on March 17, 2008, 04:31:08 PM
Is there a video feed from Salem for all games Friday and Saturday on this website?????
Pat,
I would just like to confirm that this is what you were answering "yes" to. If I remember correctly there was no video feed for the championship game last year because CSTV (now CBS College Sports Network) owned the rights. I see the championship game is on their schedule again this season. Do they not have exclusive rights to the video?
Thanks in advance.
Sorry, yes -- we cannot videostream the title game. We'll still have our audio on for that game, however.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 17, 2008, 05:03:34 PM
Do it!
Hope, Platteville, Calvin, Stevens Point, Hampden-Sydney, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan have shown up the best in Salem over the years.
Agree on UWSP, Wooster, and Ill-Wes. Cannot speak for Hampden-Sydney, Calvin, Platteville or Hope but take PC's word for it. I would add Wittenberg as a group of fans that showed up well in Salem.
Quote from: walzy31 on March 18, 2008, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 17, 2008, 05:03:34 PM
Do it!
Hope, Platteville, Calvin, Stevens Point, Hampden-Sydney, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan have shown up the best in Salem over the years.
Agree on UWSP, Wooster, and Ill-Wes. Cannot speak for Hampden-Sydney, Calvin, Platteville or Hope but take PC's word for it. I would add Wittenberg as a group of fans that showed up well in Salem.
Charades legends
Calvin had a very good showing when they were upset by Rochester in the semis in 05.
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Mrs Van Solkema might be able to hook you up.
Quote from: sac on March 19, 2008, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Mrs Van Solkema might be able to hook you up.
Oh! A serious +K for that one! :D
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
the ncaa provided the teams with copies of the games last year. they also frown on bringing electronic equipment into the center. i had to conceal my camera for the final game.
Quote from: sac on March 19, 2008, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Mrs Van Solkema might be able to hook you up.
Too funny!!
Quote from: HopeConvert on March 19, 2008, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: sac on March 19, 2008, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Mrs Van Solkema might be able to hook you up.
Oh! A serious +K for that one! :D
Hey don't slight the set-up man :)
The All Regional Teams make the Final Four all the more exciting to look forward to...
Amherst NE Region Player of the Year Andrew Olson
Amherst NE Region First Teamer Fletcher Walters
Ursinus MA Region Player of the Year Nick Shattuck
Wash U MW Region First Teamer and Jostens Award Winner Troy Ruths
Hope GL Region First Teamer Marcus Vanderheide
True -- couple coaches of the year in there too. Game on!
3 coaches of the year Small - Ursinus, Edwards - Wash U and Van Wieren - Hope
Here's to four good games this weekend
Go HOPE!
Quote from: mailsy on March 19, 2008, 02:13:01 PM
3 coaches of the year Small - Ursinus, Edwards - Wash U and Van Wieren - Hope
Amherst Coach must not be doing a good job. ;)
Heh. Yeah -- obviously the case. :)
Barry deserved it for his team's unanticipated playoff run. Plus they were eight games above last year's regular season results as well. Hixon is obviously a Coach of the Year quality coach as well.
As a fan of Hope College, I was wondering if someone can explain to me what happened in the Wash U Loss below.
Were there injuries? Since it was a Sunday did half the team sit out? Did players boycott the game b/c the coaches weren't being paid 40K?
Just wondering how such a solid team lost by 31 pts to a 19-9 team that went 6-8 in confernece play.
I saw that it was after the tough OT loss to Rochester.
Thanks!
Feb. 3 12:00 PM at Carnegie Mellon * • L, 86-55
Quote from: dothedew on March 19, 2008, 03:25:05 PM
As a fan of Hope College, I was wondering if someone can explain to me what happened in the Wash U Loss below.
Were there injuries? Since it was a Sunday did half the team sit out? Did players boycott the game b/c the coaches weren't being paid 40K?
Just wondering how such a solid team lost by 31 pts to a 19-9 team that went 6-8 in confernece play.
I saw that it was after the tough OT loss to Rochester.
Thanks!
Feb. 3 12:00 PM at Carnegie Mellon * • L, 86-55
That same day Rochester lost by 9 AT HOME to Chicago (which, at the time, seemed a huge upset). So I suspect it was just one of those things - a 'hangover' if you will from the Saturday showdown. But perhaps a UAA poster can give a better insight.
Read Sean Wallis' Insider blog post in the Daily Dose, actually, for more about that game. He references it this week.
Thanks, Pat, I hadn't read his latest yet. I'm not sure Sean would dare use the term 'hangover' :D, but sounds like he saw it the same way I suspected it to be.
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 19, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Does anyone know if a DVD or VHS is available for purchase after the final four that would include the Championship game, and maybe more?
Tape it on CSTV. ::)
Quote from: fpc85 on March 19, 2008, 10:48:42 AM
the ncaa provided the teams with copies of the games last year. they also frown on bring electronic equipment into the center. i had to conceal my camera for the final game.
Yeah, the 2nd year the Pointers won it, I had a camera with two lenses. One was a normal one and one a zoom...they said my zoom was too big! I eventually got it in.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 17, 2008, 04:40:09 PM
Have no fear (I think), there shouldn't be any problem getting a ticket to the Final Four in Salem.
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 17, 2008, 04:41:00 PM
Is that a challenge to Hope fans to buy more tickets? ;D We can do that.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 17, 2008, 05:03:34 PM
Do it!
Hope, Platteville, Calvin, Stevens Point, Hampden-Sydney, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan have shown up the best in Salem over the years.
According to D3 Championship site, via the ODAC (http://www.odaconline.com/hoopchamp/)
Attendence figures:
Wash U. v Hope: 2187
Amherst v Ursinus: 2113
I have a good feeling that having it Easter Weekend didn't help the attendence.
2007Amherst v Virginia Wesleyan: 3075 (only available boxscore)
2006Virginia Wesleyan v Wittenberg: 3435 (only available boxscore)
2005Stevens Point v York (Pa): 2660
Rochester v Calvin: 2650
Stevens Point v Rochester: 2877
2004Stevens Point v John Carroll: 2120
Williams v Amherst: 2105
Stevens Point v Williams: 2374
2003Williams v Wooster: 3980
Gustavus Adolphus v Hampden-Sydney: 4179
Williams v Gustavus Adolphus: 3867
Wow. I didn't realize Williams traveled so well.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2008, 11:41:17 PM
Wow. I didn't realize Williams traveled so well.
I know when Williams and Amherst played in the first semi final back in 2004, Williams had quite a few fans there. That's for sure. But, maybe a look at the numbers a little closely will explain their attendence figures aren't just them.
2003: Wooster travels well (6 1/2 hrs. to Salem) and Hampden-Sydney sure isn't too far away from Salem. The Williams/Gustavus Adolphus final attendence numbers may have a lot to do with H-S playing the first game.
2004: There were "only" 2374 for the Point v Williams final. (forgot to add that for some reason) and surprisingly even less for the semi final vs. arch rival Amherst the night before.
The women's Final Four in Holland had 2372.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 21, 2008, 11:41:17 PM
Wow. I didn't realize Williams traveled so well.
Before giving Williams too much credit, check out the 2004 numbers. This year being the first time the d3 FF has had to compete with Easter, I think those numbers are by far the worst ever. They got blase' over a 'rerun'?! :D
Congrats to Wash U. I'm trying to see if I have CSTV on my DishNetwork...Has the channel name been changed to CBSCS? I'm assuming, CBS College Sports?
Any one know?
Network: CBS COLLEGE SPORTS TELEVISION
Channel Name: CSTV
Category: SPORTS
Description: CBS College Sports Television provides more live college sports games, events, news, information, analysis and broadband content, and reaches more college sports fans, than any other company. CBS College Sports Television has television and other media rights for all Conference USA sports and, beginning in 2006, it will have exclusive media and marketing rights for all Mountain West Conference sports. CBS College Sports Television also owns exclusive multi-media rights to Navy home and select neutral site football games, as well as other Navy sports.
Satellite:
Channel:
110
152
Available in:
AMERICA'S "EVERYTHING" PAK
AMERICA'S TOP 200
AMERICA'S TOP 250
DISHFAMILY
Here's a good trivia question that I don't know the answer too, wondering if anyone does:
Brandeis has defeated both Amherst and WashU this season, and has a combined record of 2-2 against those teams. When was the last time a team beat both finalists for the national title in the same season? Who was the team? And where did they finish? Also, has anyone ever played the two teams in the title game a combined 4 times that year?
Another question. How many DIII National Champions (Men's) have been from west of the Mississippi River?
I think Wash U vs. Hope has the makings of a potential great rivalry if they could find a way to play during the regular season on occasion. I was impressed with Wash U's fan turnout (Hope was there in great numbers as well). Amherst is just methodical destruction in action. They present a variety of matchup problems for anyone. Ursinus is clearly better than they showed last night but Amherst can expose weaknesses in a variety of ways.
Quote from: WashU33Fan on March 22, 2008, 07:18:51 AM
I think Wash U vs. Hope has the makings of a potential great rivalry if they could find a way to play during the regular season on occasion. I was impressed with Wash U's fan turnout (Hope was there in great numbers as well). Amherst is just methodical destruction in action. They present a variety of matchup problems for anyone. Ursinus is clearly better than they showed last night but Amherst can expose weaknesses in a variety of ways.
I was also impressed by Wash U's fan turnout. Didn't expect to see that many. Wash U will certainly out cheer Amherst today unless Amherst was waiting until Saturday to bring its fans.
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 22, 2008, 09:48:47 AM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on March 22, 2008, 07:18:51 AM
I think Wash U vs. Hope has the makings of a potential great rivalry if they could find a way to play during the regular season on occasion. I was impressed with Wash U's fan turnout (Hope was there in great numbers as well). Amherst is just methodical destruction in action. They present a variety of matchup problems for anyone. Ursinus is clearly better than they showed last night but Amherst can expose weaknesses in a variety of ways.
I was also impressed by Wash U's fan turnout. Didn't expect to see that many. Wash U will certainly out cheer Amherst today unless Amherst was waiting until Saturday to bring its fans.
amherst fans 200 strong of family and close friends...be aware of the purple hat fans...they are biggest supporters of the jeff team..loud, vociferous...the best cheerleaders in the world!
Quote from: fpc85 on March 22, 2008, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 22, 2008, 09:48:47 AM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on March 22, 2008, 07:18:51 AM
I think Wash U vs. Hope has the makings of a potential great rivalry if they could find a way to play during the regular season on occasion. I was impressed with Wash U's fan turnout (Hope was there in great numbers as well). Amherst is just methodical destruction in action. They present a variety of matchup problems for anyone. Ursinus is clearly better than they showed last night but Amherst can expose weaknesses in a variety of ways.
I was also impressed by Wash U's fan turnout. Didn't expect to see that many. Wash U will certainly out cheer Amherst today unless Amherst was waiting until Saturday to bring its fans.
amherst fans 200 strong of family and close friends...be aware of the purple hat fans...they are biggest supporters of the jeff team..loud, vociferous...the best cheerleaders in the world!
I'm always amused by non-comparative absolutes.
Quote from: fcnews on March 22, 2008, 07:10:27 AMAnother question. How many DIII National Champions (Men's) have been from west of the Mississippi River?
After a quick skim through the media guide, that one looks like a big fat goose egg. WashU has a chance to make history, it would appear...
Quote from: fcnews on March 22, 2008, 07:10:27 AM
Another question. How many DIII National Champions (Men's) have been from west of the Mississippi River?
Let alone, Final Fours. I remember there was a great deal of talk when Gustavus Adolphus made the Final Four...there might have been only a couple of "west of the Mississippi" Final Four teams.
You also have to take into account how many teams there actually are west of the Mississippi.
Congratulations to Washington (MO), the 2008 D3 national champion!
Pat had a great point at the end of today's championship game: Three years ago, prior to the expansion of the tournament and the subsequent addition of those extra Pool C berths, this Wash U team would not have even made the tournament field.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 22, 2008, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: fcnews on March 22, 2008, 07:10:27 AM
Another question. How many DIII National Champions (Men's) have been from west of the Mississippi River?
Let alone, Final Fours. I remember there was a great deal of talk when Gustavus Adolphus made the Final Four...there might have been only a couple of "west of the Mississippi" Final Four teams.
1982 -- CSU-Stanislaus (fourth)
1985 -- Nebraska Wesleyan (third)
1986 -- Nebraska Wesleyan (third)
1988 -- Nebraska Wesleyan (third)
1997-- Nebraska Wesleyan (second)
2003 -- Gustavus Adolphus (second)
2008 -- Washington MO (first)
Three schools on the eastern bank of the Mississippi -- LeMoyne-Owen (two trips, including the '75 national title), Augustana (four trips), and St. Thomas (one trip) -- have also made it to the D3 Final Four.
WashU joins Scranton and UW-Stevens Point as the schools with both men's and women's titles.
Greg, don't forget Nebraska Wesleyan - 2nd in 1997.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 22, 2008, 06:16:23 PM
Greg, don't forget Nebraska Wesleyan - 2nd in 1997.
Good point -- but NWU made
four trips to the Final Four, not just one.
(I should've remembered NebWes -- I saw North Park beat the then-Plainsmen in the national semis in '85.)
I kinda thought they had been more than once, but was too lazy to look it up. But 1997 I certainly remembered for obvious reasons! ;D
Surprisingly quiet on the board today. Not much chatter for Championship Day.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2008, 06:35:52 PM
Surprisingly quiet on the board today. Not much chatter for Championship Day.
Well, you could fill out a Posters' Poll ballot while you're waiting! ;)
Congrats to Wash U.! I have to say I am surprised. I had been impressed with Amherst all season and thought their size would hinder Ruths game a bit. Plus, I thought Wash U must have used up some of their mojo with that incredible shooting performance yesterday. Solid victory for Wash U.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 21, 2008, 11:39:35 PM
Attendence figures:
Wash U. v Hope: 2187
Amherst v Ursinus: 2113
I have a good feeling that having it Easter Weekend didn't help the attendence.
2007
Amherst v Virginia Wesleyan: 3075 (only available boxscore)
2006
Virginia Wesleyan v Wittenberg: 3435 (only available boxscore)
2005
Stevens Point v York (Pa): 2660
Rochester v Calvin: 2650
Stevens Point v Rochester: 2877
2004
Stevens Point v John Carroll: 2120
Williams v Amherst: 2105
Stevens Point v Williams: 2374
2003
Williams v Wooster: 3980
Gustavus Adolphus v Hampden-Sydney: 4179
Williams v Gustavus Adolphus: 3867
With ODAC teams actually AT the Final Four, this has a big impact on the number of fans that show up. Think about if the game was played in Madison, Milwaukee, Rockford, or Chicago. You would have a decent number of Wisconsin/Illinois fans who would make the trip regardless... but ESPECIALLY if there was a WIAC or CCIW team there.
Attendance Question:
I had a conversation with a few people about the fact that there appeared to be almost no one at the Final Four from the local community. Is this typical from past final fours in Salem? I was wondering if the fact Salem has had the Final Four for quite a few years in a row now might have ruined any interest from the local community.
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 22, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Attendance Question:
I had a conversation with a few people about the fact that there appeared to be almost no one at the Final Four from the local community. Is this typical from past final fours in Salem? I was wondering if the fact Salem has had the Final Four for quite a few years in a row now might have ruined any interest from the local community.
In 03-04 and 04-05, there were people in the crowd from the community, some who were there for the first time, others who had come before. I talked to a gentleman who had brought his two sons. He had gone to a DIII school and thought it was great. That said, I think the Easter holiday made a BIG difference in the casual fan who would make the trip. Many people travel for Easter and have family obligations... if your inlaws are coming in on Friday, it'll probably be tough to slip away for 4 or 5 hours on Friday and Saturday...
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 22, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Attendance Question:
I had a conversation with a few people about the fact that there appeared to be almost no one at the Final Four from the local community. Is this typical from past final fours in Salem? I was wondering if the fact Salem has had the Final Four for quite a few years in a row now might have ruined any interest from the local community.
Very abnormal - usually they are many more "locals" there.
Hope traveled well, as expected. Wash U brought way more fans than I anticipated, as did Ursinus actually. Amherst's contingent was small - that surprised me. If I had to guess the attendance split by school, I'd say:
Hope 40%
Wash U 30%
Ursinus 20%
Amherst 10%
Wash U's students brought a ton of energy to the games -- one of the largest and most vocal student sections I've seen in Salem.
I would nudge WashU up a little higher than that -- maybe make Hope/WashU an even 35/35.
In the semifinal between the two teams Friday night, their fanbases seemed about equal... but maybe that's only when you count decibels instead of people. :)
Quote from: DCHopeNut on March 22, 2008, 07:57:44 PM
Attendance Question:
I had a conversation with a few people about the fact that there appeared to be almost no one at the Final Four from the local community. Is this typical from past final fours in Salem? I was wondering if the fact Salem has had the Final Four for quite a few years in a row now might have ruined any interest from the local community.
I think the holiday ruined any interest rather than the fact that it's been there for a while.
Quote from: pabegg on March 22, 2008, 06:12:56 PM
WashU joins Scranton and UW-Stevens Point as the schools with both men's and women's titles.
Didn't realize that the list was that short.
I attended the D III Final Four this past weekend in Salem, VA and had a great time. It was amazing how many fans attended from Hope and Wash U compared to the much closer Ursinius. UC had their following, don't get me wrong, but nothing compared to the others (minus Amherst).
Also, speaking of Ursinius, either #41's parents donated a lot of money to UC and helped build a new science wing, or he had the two worst games of his life this past weekend. Either way, he didn't deserve to start. #23 for them, who I believe is only a Sophomore, played much better and more aggressive. I believe he had 11 points by halftime in the consolation game. #41 had 3 or 4 fouls by then with not even half the points. It made me scratch my head. No offense to #41 but if that's the way he plays, I can't believe he was a starter on a NCAA collegiate team of any level.
It's likely he played a little bit better when he was averaging 17.3 points in the first four NCAA Tournament games.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2008, 02:28:25 PM
It's likely he played a little bit better when he was averaging 17.3 points in the first four NCAA Tournament games.
hahaha...it always amazes me when people make such assessments based on a weekend. the big guy was a huge reason why they were there.
Quote from: fpc85 on March 24, 2008, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2008, 02:28:25 PM
It's likely he played a little bit better when he was averaging 17.3 points in the first four NCAA Tournament games.
hahaha...it always amazes me when people make such assessments based on a weekend. the big guy was a huge reason why they were there.
I don't think anyone that looks at Ursinus' whole season can dispute the fact 41 had a big impact on the team. However, its equally true that this past weekend, for one reason or another, 23 was the better player and probably should have seen more time on the floor.
I agree, though, that Howell played really well in the third-place game. He was really physical down low against Vanderheide et al -- lot of respect for his game. With him and Noonan and Cousart, UC should have a solid team next year.
Obviously I wasn't in Salem, but people have really been ripping that #41 guy. I swear I read some guy throwing him under the bus on another board, possibly the MIAA board. Ouch!
The guy had a bad weekend. Heck, I saw 3-time conference player of the year and All-American (how many times?) Larry Welton on two different ocassions, one last season at Wisconsin Lutheran and one during the regionals at Aurora vs. Hope and he looked horrible both times. Yeah, I kind of ripped on him, but I didn't think he was the worst player in the world! I took into account he was a 3-time POTY and AA, so I wasn't claiming he shouldn't be starting for any D3 team!
I don't know who #41 is, but I feel sorry for you!
Finally a chance to post after a truly thrilling weekend. Firstly, I want to commend the people of Salem who put on the tournament. It really was a first rate event and is great for Division III basketball. Secondly, it was great meeting some of this board's regulars. Pat, TitanQ, and Coach it was great chatting. You all did a great job over the weekend and I hope you heard the "D3 Hoops" chant eminating from the Wash.U. student section. Also, reuniting with old friend Walzy was fun, at least for me.
The Hope contingent was impressive and classy. Hope you all enjoyed the 120 or so Wash.U. students who made the trek. We had a blast.
As for the games...
There have been very few games all year when Wash.U. has truly played 40 minutes of quality basketball. This weekend they put together 80 excellent minutes of basketball, 60 of which were essentially perfect. You won't find a better top 6 in the nation than what Wash.U. put out there and because they largely stayed out of foul trouble, it was incredibly difficult to stop them. Also, key reserves stepped up big for the Bears this weekend. Props to Moss Schemerhorn for his huge performance on Friday, filling in for a foul-plagued Tyler Nading. Freshman Caleb Knepper also provided quality minutes all weekend. Ross Kelley did an amazing job on Olson and ran the offense seamlessly. He erased any lingering doubts about his experience or ability on the offensive end and his defense was, as always, tremendous.
Troy was epic. I'm wondering if the veterans on this board have seen a Final Four weekend like that in their time covering the event? I don't know why Amherst opted not to double team him in the early going. He set the tempo from the start and got key Lord Jeffs in foul trouble as well.
To those of us who have followed the team all year, we weren't terribly surprised by Aaron Thompson. His poise and skills are a lethal combination and it won't be long before he is getting all-America hype. Tyler Nading's defense was spectacular and his slashing ability again hurt opposing defenses. Cam Smith was awesome on D and Danny O'Boyle's clutch shooting was memorable.
It was such an amazing weekend for the Bears. They really put it all together and then some. Each time Amehrst or Hope would cut the lead, the Bears would deliver another blow. Eventually, Wash.U. delivered too many knock out punches and took their first ever national title. This was the culmination of a long search for their identity as a basketball team and what better way to find it? They lost their quarterback early in the season, but never doutbed their ability, even when many others did. That is commendable.
I think Wash.U's schedule and road to the final four coupled with last season's tournament experience really helped. They weren't flustered for a moment and never displayed any panic. That's a testament to the guys Edwards has recruited. This team was such a joy to watch all year long because, though they may have lacked some of the flair we witnessed last year, they played with an indescribable grit and perhaps only at this level can that kind of passion bring home a banner.
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 24, 2008, 06:22:12 PM
Troy was epic. I'm wondering if the veterans on this board have seen a Final Four weekend like that in their time covering the event? I don't know why Amherst opted not to double team him in the early going. He set the tempo from the start and got key Lord Jeffs in foul trouble as well.
I assume you mean if there was any other player who had a championships weekend like Troy did... one that comes to mind is Jeff Gibbs of Otterbein. Certainly up there with Troy... if not just a bit better (25 points and 25 rebounds in the championship game).
And Marty... sorry I missed chatting with you. I think I saw you out of the corner of my eye, but no one wanted to introduce us! :)
The only comparable performance on a title team in my years there was Otterbein's Jeff Gibbs in 2002. He had 55 points and 40 rebounds.
Sherm Carstensen had a great performance for UW-Eau Claire in a semifinal win but his team then lost to Calvin.
... I missed the chant! Wow. Stupid wearing a stupid headset. :(
Picture for you, I'll grab it.
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 24, 2008, 06:22:12 PMTroy was epic. I'm wondering if the veterans on this board have seen a Final Four weekend like that in their time covering the event?
Someone asked Dave Hixon that in the postgame press conference. He compared Troy Ruths to Brandon Adair.
Quote from: eclinchy on March 24, 2008, 09:29:59 PM
Quote from: Marty Peretz on March 24, 2008, 06:22:12 PMTroy was epic. I'm wondering if the veterans on this board have seen a Final Four weekend like that in their time covering the event?
Someone asked Dave Hixon that in the postgame press conference. He compared Troy Ruths to Brandon Adair.
I like that comparison, but I'd say Ruth's superb free throw shooting made him more of a nightmare for Amherst... that is of course, throwing out all other factors (like offensive sets, teammates, and so on).
Nice story I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet. Includes Troy Ruths (as well as some Stephen Curry kid that is lighting up some other tournament you may be aware of).
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/C2B5CD1A286599A78625741700136D04?OpenDocument
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 26, 2008, 12:39:16 PMNice story I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet. Includes Troy Ruths (as well as some Stephen Curry kid that is lighting up some other tournament you may be aware of).
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/C2B5CD1A286599A78625741700136D04?OpenDocument
Much better than his first column about Wash U... he got rid of the condescending tone quite nicely.
As I was flying home from Salem Sunday morning, I was flipping through the channels on my in-flight TV and came across Bryan Burwell on the Sports Reporters proclaiming "March Madness isn't just about the big boys, so here's a shout-out to Mark Edwards and the Division III champion Washington University Bears." I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
I'm happy to see that three days later, he's lost the obnoxious tone and treated them like an actual sports team. Maybe more people in the mainstream media will follow suit. That would be nice.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2008, 07:56:16 PM
Carstensen had a great performance for UW-Eau Claire in a semifinal win but his team then lost to Calvin.
Wasn't he still named the Final Four's outstanding player?
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 26, 2008, 04:05:15 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2008, 07:56:16 PM
Carstensen had a great performance for UW-Eau Claire in a semifinal win but his team then lost to Calvin.
Wasn't he still named the Final Four's outstanding player?
Keep in mind that they collect the All-Tournament and MOP ballots with three minutes left in the title game... so if the game is close, the votes won't always reflect the game's outcome.
Sherm Carstensen's Semi-Final stats: 34 pts, 7 rebs.
Sherm Carstensen's Final stats: 36 pts, 11 rebs.
Quote from: fpc85 on March 24, 2008, 02:55:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 24, 2008, 02:28:25 PM
It's likely he played a little bit better when he was averaging 17.3 points in the first four NCAA Tournament games.
hahaha...it always amazes me when people make such assessments based on a weekend. the big guy was a huge reason why they were there.
I'll be the first to tell you, other than this past weekend, I don't know anything about any of the four teams. I was making an observation about #41. He's their "big man" and he played anything but that. I'm not talking he had an off game. I'm saying he plays light, like a little man, who's afraid to throw his body around and fight for some boards, go up strong and actually challenge the other team. Aside from getting a lucky block, probably because he's so large, I didn't see anything all that great. I'm not ripping the guy. Obviously he had to be some kind of a great basketball player at some point in his life or else he wouldn't have gotten where he was. It just seems like for some reason he's playing scared. I'm not against this guy or the team. I'm from PA and although I wasn't cheering for UC, I wasn't against them either. I just wanted to see some great games, which I did!
I don't think it's fair to cite fear as the reason for his lethargy. Sure he was only good very close to the basket, but he got there pretty much whenever he wanted. And while I agree that his rebounding skill is devoid of any sense of urgency, I think that's more of a product of his size.
Quote from: ac08 on March 27, 2008, 04:52:45 PM
Sure he was only good very close to the basket, but he got there pretty much whenever he wanted.
I don't agree - or maybe he just didn't want to get close to the basket very often
I wondered aloud at the games Friday if Shema had ever matched up with a big man like Amherst's legit 6-10 Kevin Hopkins. I started to look around the Centennial Conference and could only find a couple 6-8 kids but the rosters say nothing of bulk.
He did look unsure of himself, and couldn't move as well as Amherst's more athletic players. His foul trouble both games was largely do to his poor movement, and really shyed away from physical contact. He had a significant height advantage vs Hope and fouled out in just 13 minutes with 8 points and 3 rebounds.
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on March 27, 2008, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: ac08 on March 27, 2008, 04:52:45 PM
Sure he was only good very close to the basket, but he got there pretty much whenever he wanted.
I don't agree - or maybe he just didn't want to get close to the basket very often
That may have been the case. Every amherst big that I spoke with told me there was no way to stop him from getting position. That being said, he didn't show much besides size and a surprisingly soft touch. No scoring ego, not much in the way of post moves, no speed or quickness at all (at least compared to the amherst bigs); at one point vs the jeffs he had the ball on the baseline about 8 or 10 ft out and the only person between him and the basket was Olson...he didn't even look at the hoop.
Just merged with last year's...
Looks like a pretty solid Final Four. We have Washington U coming out of the Bracket of Death here to defend it's National Championship. Guilford, though their first Final Four (?), comes in from the powerful ODAC. Franklin & Marshall represents the Centennial and Richard Stockton from the usually tough NJAC. Who's the biggest surprise?
I would probably have to say Guilford. Both F&M and RS hosted both weekends while Guilford had to play three neutral court games and an away game to get to Salem.
Of course a good argument can be made for Washington U going through the Bracket of Death with wins by 2, 3, 3, and 15. But, they are the defending champions!
A history of the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll and Final Four results...
(Using the second to last poll each season - the one in place at the start of the tournament, and at the time the Final Four games were played.)
2008
#11 Wash U beat #1 Hope
#3 Amherst beat #16 Ursinus
#1 Hope beat #16 Ursinus
#11 Wash U beat #3 Amherst
(poll: 2-2)
2007
#4 Virginia Wesleyan beat #8 Wash U
#6 Amherst beat #2 Wooster
#8 Wash U beat #2 Wooster)
#6 Amherst beat #4 Virginia Wesleyan
(poll: 1-3)
2006
#7 Virginia Wesleyan beat #11 Illinois Wesleyan
#3 Wittenberg beat #4 Amherst
#11 Illinois Wesleyan beat # 4 Amherst
#7 Virginia Wesleyan beat #3 Wittenberg
(poll: 2-2)
2005
#21 Rochester beat #14 Calvin
#1 UW-Stevens beat beat #19 York (Pa.)
#14 Calvin beat #19 York
#1 UW-Stevens Point beat #21 Rochester
(poll: 3-1)
2004
#1 Williams beat #5 Amherst
#10 UW-Stevens Point beat #13 John Carroll
#13 John Carroll beat #5 Amherst
#10 UW-Stevens Point beat #1 Williams
(poll: 2-2)
2003
#3 Williams beat #6 Wooster
#24 Gustavus Adolphus beat #4 Hampden-Sydney
#6 Wooster beat #4 Hampden-Sydney
#3 Williams beat #24 Gustavus Adolphus
(poll: 2-2)
2002
#6 Otterbein beat #1 Carthage
#4 Elizabethtown beat #18 Rochester
#1 Carthage beat #18 Rochester
#6 Otterbein beat #4 Elizabethtown
(poll: 2-2)
2001
#14 Catholic beat #3 Ohio Northern
#11 William Paterson beat #17 Illinois Wesleyan
#17 Illinois Wesleyan beat #3 Ohio Northern
#14 Catholic beat #11 William Paterson
(poll: 1-3)
2000
#15 UW-Eau Claire beat #21 Salem State
#1 Calvin beat #19 Franklin & Marshall
#21 Salem State beat #19 Franklin & Marshall
#1 Calvin beat #15 UW-Eau Claire
(poll: 3-1)
Since its inception in 1999-00, the poll is an even 50% at the Final Four, 18-18.
This weekend:
#2 Wash U vs #23 Guilford
#6 Richard Stockton vs (RV) Franklin & Marshall
* F&M becomes the first unranked team to play in the Final Four.
How does it go if you eliminate the third-place game?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 16, 2009, 06:00:14 PM
How does it go if you eliminate the third-place game?
Excluding the 3rd place game, the poll is 15-12 (.556). The breakdown by round is:
National semifinals: 12-6
National consolation: 3-6
National championship: 3-6
Note that the poll in place at the time of the Final Four is done before any tournament games take place. If a poll was released before the Final Four, it would probably look a lot different than the post-Selection Sunday poll. (The poll in place at the time of the Final Four does not factor in 4 rounds of the NCAA tournament and all of those key games between ranked teams.)
Nonetheless, it is interesting. Anything can happen in Salem.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 16, 2009, 03:24:05 PM
Who's the biggest surprise?
I would probably have to say Guilford. Both F&M and RS hosted both weekends while Guilford had to play three neutral court games and an away game to get to Salem.
Guilford's road warriors have probably had the most surprising tourney run, but I think F&M's season as a whole has also been incredibly surprising. Coming off three awful campaigns, the Dips were picked to finish 5th in the CC preseason poll. I really thought 16-17 wins would be a good year because they're loaded with underclassmen (including a freshman point guard). It'll be interesting to see how they perform on the big stage.
Quote from: r.w. mcnickels on March 16, 2009, 08:21:23 PM
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 16, 2009, 03:24:05 PM
Who's the biggest surprise?
I would probably have to say Guilford. Both F&M and RS hosted both weekends while Guilford had to play three neutral court games and an away game to get to Salem.
Guilford's road warriors have probably had the most surprising tourney run, but I think F&M's season as a whole has also been incredibly surprising. Coming off three awful campaigns, the Dips were picked to finish 5th in the CC preseason poll. I really thought 16-17 wins would be a good year because they're loaded with underclassmen (including a freshman point guard). It'll be interesting to see how they perform on the big stage.
I think you're right about both schools. Guilford was picked to finish 3rd this year in the 11 team ODAC ... behind Randolph-Macon and Virginia Wesleyan.
If you survive a bracket of death, is it really a bracket of death?
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2009, 10:09:39 PM
If you survive a bracket of death, is it really a bracket of death?
Well ... for everyone else! ;D
[Even the NCAA d3 men's committee hasn't yet designed a bracket where NO one emerges! :D]
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Its this kind of talk that is the precise reason the games are played.
Here's a reference point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDd5erJtbQ
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
While I've railed against the bracket of death as strongly as anyone (and even opined that the Elmhurst regional could almost have been a final four), this post is way over the top.
Any of the final four teams is capable of pulling off two wins. Wash U is certainly the favorite (and I think several other teams from the bracket of death would also have been favored), but the weekend is NOT a foregone conclusion. (Though two blowouts by Wash U would NOT surprise me - nor would two or more close games.)
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2009, 10:51:51 PM
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Its this kind of talk that is the precise reason the games are played.
Here's a reference point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDd5erJtbQ
Reference point?
I was thinking of
this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyO8DMvLGwc&NR=1). >:(
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 16, 2009, 11:38:14 PM
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2009, 10:51:51 PM
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Its this kind of talk that is the precise reason the games are played.
Here's a reference point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDd5erJtbQ
Reference point?
I was thinking of this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyO8DMvLGwc&NR=1). >:(
Good pick, Ralph. That and Villanova over Georgetown are my two persistent examples of "never assume"! I would say that Wash U is approximately the same favorite as Phi Slamma Jamma and the Hoyas. Will lightning strike THREE times?
I'm still not certain I would vote NCState ot 'nova even into the top ten, much less #1. So, if Wash U falls, will I vote the winner #1 on my PP ballot? Richard Stockton, probably. Guilford or F&M, stay tuned! ;)
Only now did it seep through my thick skull - Salem is where the ODAC has their conference tourney. So, just like RMC or HSC, Guilford is the "home" team. :P
IMO, Wash U is still the heavy favorite, with Dickie Stockton #2, but who knows?
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Hmm... I believe Ill. Wesleyan was in this exact same position in 2006... but last time I checked they didn't win a national title that year... Virginia Wesleyan did. Same could be said about the Final Four in 2001 when Catholic won. PurpleReign... you might want to do a bit more research and have a better understanding of Division III Basketball before posting a comment like this. Wash U is certainly the favorite, but let's play the games first and then find out if they are a deserving champion.
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on March 17, 2009, 05:24:21 AM
Hmm... I believe Ill. Wesleyan was in this exact same position in 2006...
Not really, Dave. In 2006, IWU finished 9-5 in the CCIW (they were the #4 seed in the CCIW tournament). They entered Salem ranked #11. The loss to Virginia Wesleyan wasn't an upset based on the poll...
2006
#7 Virginia Wesleyan beat #11 Illinois Wesleyan
#3 Wittenberg beat #4 Amherst
#11 Illinois Wesleyan beat # 4 Amherst
#7 Virginia Wesleyan beat #3 WittenbergIWU went through a nasty bracket to get to Salem, but not quite what Wash U has just made it through...
vs #17 Carroll (neutral)
@ #15 UW-Whitewater
@ #1 Lawrence
vs #14 Puget Sound (neutral)
Wash U's current road...
vs #20 Lawrence (neutral)
vs #8 UW-Whitewater (neutral)
@ #3 Wheaton
vs #1 St. Thomas (neutral)
And this Wash U team ran away with the UAA (13-1) and finished the regular season 23-2.
While I have been clear in stating that I think anything can happen in Salem, and that people should not assume Wash U is going to run away with this, the Bears are certainly a big favorite...much bigger than IWU was in 2006, or whoever was the favorite in 2001 when Catholic won...
2001
#14 Catholic beat #3 Ohio Northern
#11 William Paterson beat #17 Illinois Wesleyan
#17 Illinois Wesleyan beat #3 Ohio Northern
#14 Catholic beat #11 William Paterson
I hope everyone realizes that the statement by PurpleReign is not a belief of Wash U fans. We know all to well that anything can happen in Salem. Go Bears!
No, it's a statement of a St. Thomas fan.
If you listen to the Hoopsville Broadcast from Sunday night, Coach Edwards makes it clear that all four teams in Salem are quality deserving teams and that Wash U will have their work cut out for them. They pointed out on the broadcast that both Virginia Wesleyan and Amherst lost their chance to repeat in the championship game. No team is a lock. Go Bears!
Titan - I was simply saying that after the road IWU traveled and in the manner they won, I think many people felt they were the favorite to win. Not based on rankings. It is just a reminder that while one team is playing well and seems to be a favorite, it might be the team overshadowed that comes out victorious.
Quote from: Dave "d-mac" McHugh on March 17, 2009, 11:47:55 AM
Titan - I was simply saying that after the road IWU traveled and in the manner they won, I think many people felt they were the favorite to win. Not based on rankings. It is just a reminder that while one team is playing well and seems to be a favorite, it might be the team overshadowed that comes out victorious.
Completely agree.
I think all of us who have railed on the Bracket of Death hope that Washington U goes in and blows out their potential two opponents to prove the strength of that bracket they were in. In a way, that's how I feel. There probably isn't going to be a change anytime soon, so we'll just have to live with it.
I remember something Pat had wrote about swapping some of the brackets so in the 2nd weekend, the Bracket of Death would've been split up and it wouldn't have mattered much since flights would be required anyway. Hopefully the NCAA realizes this and splits things up a little more next year.
that is pretty good that wash u has 2 teams in the final 4 this week it would be hard to be there fans to decide who goes to whitch game this week holland or salem
Point had that in 2004...too bad Salem and Virginia Beach weren't closer...oh yeah, the women's Pointer hockey team was in the Final Four the same weekend as well.
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 17, 2009, 01:08:36 PM
I remember something Pat had wrote about swapping some of the brackets so in the 2nd weekend, the Bracket of Death would've been split up and it wouldn't have mattered much since flights would be required anyway. Hopefully the NCAA realizes this and splits things up a little more next year.
I could be wrong, but I think the tradition of someone pointing out a common-sense no-cost method to make the D3 men's bracket fairer and hoping that, next year, the NCAA will act upon it, began with the Assyrians in ca. 350 B.C.E. Consider this passage from the Dead Sea Scroll denoted 4Q285, generally dated to 100-70 B.C.E.:
Quote from: unknown EsseneYea verily I say unto you, O אאחנ (these letters, nun-chet-aleph-aleph, are considered by scholars to represent the organization that became the ancestor of the modern-day NCAA), wise would it have been for Habakkuk to have been bracketed in amongst the Levites in Damascus in a manner such that their smiting of the Galileans mey be postdated until a further round. Would that such wisdom could be bestowed upon your heads like oil from the Lamp of Knowledge before you (illegible) the brackets twelve moons hence.
...to which came the reply,
Quote from: unidentified אאחנ officialSooth, such should be made to occur just as soon as levitation is achieved by porcine creatures, such necessarily being at a distance from one another not less than 350 leagues, of course.
Thanks for extending the tradition another year! :)
Thanks for tying in the pyramid so wonderfully DC. :)
"If you listen to the Hoopsville Broadcast from Sunday night, Coach Edwards makes it clear that all four teams in Salem are quality deserving teams and that Wash U will have their work cut out for them."
I thought that was amusing. I mean, it may be true (all three teams certainly have plenty of talent, even if all of them are likely a year away from truly challenging a team of Wash U's depth and experience), but either way, what is Edwards gonna say ... "now that we've made it through the bracket of death, we can basically relax, because the other three teams in the Final Four really kind of suck and don't even deserve to be there ... we have this baby won, let's break out the booze!" I mean, a veteran coach knows better than to hand out that sort of bulletin board material ...
Another example to disclaim "Purple reign"'s observation:
UNLV had an undefeated season going and had won 47 straight entering their national semifinal with a Duke team they had beaten in the previous "NCAA National Championship by 30 points!! I still haven't got over that one!! :'(
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2009, 10:19:06 PM
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2009, 10:09:39 PM
If you survive a bracket of death, is it really a bracket of death?
Well ... for everyone else! ;D
[Even the NCAA d3 men's committee hasn't yet designed a bracket where NO one emerges! :D]
It's "There can be only ONE!" not "There can be only NONE!".
Quote from: sac on March 16, 2009, 10:51:51 PM
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 16, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
The Final Four in D3 this year was very competitive and lived up to it's billing. This next set of games is like an afterthought and is about as interesting as "watching grass grow." The D3 national championship has already been decided and don't understand why Washington U has to play these next two games.
Its this kind of talk that is the precise reason the games are played.
Here's a reference point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woDd5erJtbQ
Too true.
On the other hand, there's at least one women's Final Four that would have been more competitive if the #2 and #3 ranked teams had ended up in Danbury and not been sent to St. Louis. Definitely not a Final Four served well by excessive regionalism or cost savings.
I have noticed recently that Capital torched all comers in 1994 but without rankings I can't tell if they met someone earlier that should have been in the Final Four.
Just watch out for Stocktons secret weapon. It's the shoes on Coach Gerry "White Shoes" Matthews, and the white belt. You will get a chuckle when you see him, but he has been coaching forever and his team will be well prepared.
Quote from: TheOsprey on March 17, 2009, 05:40:14 PM
Another example to disclaim "Purple reign"'s observation:
UNLV had an undefeated season going and had won 47 straight entering their national semifinal with a Duke team they had beaten in the previous "NCAA National Championship by 30 points!! I still haven't got over that one!! :'(
Right, but it's not like Duke sucked when they beat UNLV. I'm still trying to find a "season in review" for that National Championship year for the Rebels.
Just for kicks I paired up the NCAA D1 tournament with the D3 tournament using RPI and OWP.......matching the teams 1 to 1, 2 to 2 etc.
This years D3 final four would be the equivalent of Marquette, Sienna, Utah State and Virginia Commonwealth in D1....... a 6, 9 and two 11 seeds.
Marquette = Richard Stockton
Sienna = Washington
Utah State = Franklin and Marshall
Guilford = Virginia Commonwealth
by OWP the top 4 national seeds would have been Elmhurst, Wheaton, St. Lawrence and Brandeis. Maybe later I'll post the whole bracket, kind of interesting.
Quote from: TheOsprey on March 17, 2009, 05:40:14 PM
Another example to disclaim "Purple reign"'s observation:
UNLV had an undefeated season going and had won 47 straight entering their national semifinal with a Duke team they had beaten in the previous "NCAA National Championship by 30 points!! I still haven't got over that one!! :'(
Conjure up all the past examples that you can, but that doesn't change my (observation) opinion that, except for WashU, the best teams in D3 are out of the tourney. Those team being Whitewater, Stevens Point, Wheaton, Puget Sound, St. Thomas, Platteville, and Buena Vista (got screwed). This year, the West and Midwest were stacked with the most talented teams, and, I for one, had the privilege of seeing some of the "Championship Bracket." But that's my opinion. I am not saying that one of the "other three" Final Four teams couldn't win that bracket. As the saying goes "even a blind squirrel can find a nut." In closing, as a St. Thomas fan, it was great to see the Number 1 & 2 teams play, and in my very, very humble opinion, the best team won. I thought that it was a great time, although the online "play by play" was pretty weak!!! ;)
Wash U's Sean Wallis made the front page of the St Louis Post Dispatch today - a lengthy, flattering feature on Sean and Wash U - great to see in a paper that this year rarely even posted D3 scores....
Unfortunately, the article pointed out what Quaj already mentioned on these pages - Sean is up in the air about a course of action next year - he's already taking Grad courses this year, and has an opportunity to play professional basketball in Israel rather than returning to Wash U for his final year of eligibility. Whichever, I'm sure all Wash U fans wish Sean only the best....
Quote from: PurpleReign on March 19, 2009, 12:35:20 AM
Quote from: TheOsprey on March 17, 2009, 05:40:14 PM
Another example to disclaim "Purple reign"'s observation:
UNLV had an undefeated season going and had won 47 straight entering their national semifinal with a Duke team they had beaten in the previous "NCAA National Championship by 30 points!! I still haven't got over that one!! :'(
Conjure up all the past examples that you can, but that doesn't change my (observation) opinion that, except for WashU, the best teams in D3 are out of the tourney. Those team being Whitewater, Stevens Point, Wheaton, Puget Sound, St. Thomas, Platteville, and Buena Vista (got screwed). This year, the West and Midwest were stacked with the most talented teams, and, I for one, had the privilege of seeing some of the "Championship Bracket." But that's my opinion. I am not saying that one of the "other three" Final Four teams couldn't win that bracket. As the saying goes "even a blind squirrel can find a nut." In closing, as a St. Thomas fan, it was great to see the Number 1 & 2 teams play, and in my very, very humble opinion, the best team won. I thought that it was a great time, although the online "play by play" was pretty weak!!! ;)
Have you seen F&M, Guilford or Richard Stockton play?
The F&M v Stockton game will feature two head coaches that have over 1150 wins between them.
Impressive, but by no means a record. The NESCAC beats that every year when Amherst plays Colby. :)
Quote from: eclinchy on March 20, 2009, 05:02:20 PM
Impressive, but by no means a record. The NESCAC beats that every year when Amherst plays Colby. :)
But neither is in the Final Four this season. :)
Well I can't watch anymore.
Guilford is not worthy of a final 4. I suspect the next game will be comparable. Flame me if you will but this unseeded tourney is total bull****. Why bother to play when 75% of the teams in the Bracket of Death would be up by 15 just like Wash U right now.
Live blog from the Final Four game between Richard Stockton and Franklin & Marshall:
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/434592.html
Check out this live interactive blog from the Richard Stockton vs. Franklin & Marshall Final Four game:
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/434592.html
Washington U advances to the title game with a 77-58 win over Guilford. Wash U up 46-41 with 11:50 to play when Sean Wallis goes on an 11-0 run hitting a layup and 3 consecutive 3's to break the game wide open. Aaron Thompson set a Salem record with 8 3 pointer's out of 12 attempts and scored a total of 30 points Wallis ended up with 15.
Thompson also had a game high 9 rebounds while Wallis added 5 assists.
Clay Henson topped Guilford with 23 pts and Tyler Sanborn finished with 11 pts and 7 boards.
Quote from: titan2000 on March 20, 2009, 06:06:25 PM
Well I can't watch anymore.
Guilford is not worthy of a final 4. I suspect the next game will be comparable. Flame me if you will but this unseeded tourney is total bull****. Why bother to play when 75% of the teams in the Bracket of Death would be up by 15 just like Wash U right now.
Their largest margin of win of the tournament so far comes in the Final 4. Go figure.
When is the last time the men and women teams of the same school played in the championship game? In Division I, Connecticut played and won both in 2004, but has it happened in Division III? ???
Quote from: mark_reichert on March 20, 2009, 07:12:58 PM
When is the last time the men and women teams of the same school played in the championship game? In Division I, Connecticut played and won both in 2004, but has it happened in Division III? ???
Not exactly both in the Championship Game, but the Wash U Women finished 2nd in 2007 and the Men finished 3rd.
Richard Stockton advances to the title game with a 62-58 win over Franklin and Marshall. For Stockton Omar Smith and Kai Massaquoi both had 20 pts and 7 rebounds. Mike Farrow added 11 pts.
Georgio Milligan led F+M with 16 pts. James Mcnally had 13 pts and 10 boards, Anthony Brooks 13 pts, and Mike Baker chipped in with 10 pts and 11 rebounds.
Stockton was down 52-44 with 5:57 left in the game and outscored F+M 18-6 to pull out the win. Nice comeback for the Ospreys.
STOCKTON IN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!! 8)
Quote from: TheOsprey on March 20, 2009, 09:15:45 PM
STOCKTON IN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!! 8)
Congratulations! It is a fun time for the Ospreys!
Anyone know the spread on Saturdays game?
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on March 21, 2009, 04:23:47 AM
Anyone know the spread on Saturdays game?
Other than Rowan, I don't think its gone well for NJAC teams in the Championship game.
Stockton is only the 4th NJAC team to reach the finals. TCNJ nee TSC and WPU did not get blown out, although WPU did seem to fade at the end of the game if I remember correctly.
Check our this live interactive blog from the title game today between Richard Stockton College and Washington (Mo.)
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/126/story/435213.html
NOW, WE SHOW UP!! :o
Congrats to Wash. U.!! It's a shame we couldn't give ya a better game!! Good luck next year!! :(
Washington U. downs Richard Stockton 61-52 to win their 2nd straight National Championship.
Sean Wallis with 16 pts and 10 assists along with Tyler Nading's 20 pts and 8 boards, led the Bears.
Santini Lancioni led the Ospreys with 19 pts.
Congratulations to both schools for making it to the Championship Game. And to the Bears for winning it all.
Congratulations Wash U!
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 21, 2009, 05:16:39 PM
Congratulations Wash U!
Ditto.
Another great D3 season in the books. Til Fall...
Congrats to Washington U on winning the title...
Ospreys, you can hold your heads high, you represented our school proudly. There were 449 schools that started this journey back in November, and four months later we were still playing basketball !!
To all of the fans, alumni, cheerleaders, faculty, staff, students and our president Dr. Saatkamp, who survived the 7 hour bus ride to Salem, THANKS for a great 2 days.
Coach Matthews, thanks for another great season, 30 wins, not too shabby. You deserve and will get the brass ring !!
See everyone next season
The Voice of Ramapo College Basketball
Another great season for Wash U! I thought they would win on the basis of their body of work during the regular season. Called a lot of things wrong, but I was right about this one. I will be curious to see what the Bears have in the tank for next season.
Championships never get old and it was a pleasure witnessing the Bears win title number two. Being there again in person was equally thrilling as last year and it was great to see WUSTL Hoops nation in full force yet again (probably even slightly more than last year). Will be interesting to see what Sean decides regarding next season.
I'll have to write a more extended recap in the UAA forum when time permits. For not, it's back to work with the hope that Salem calls my name again a year from now.
Congrats to the boys from the Arch City; the walnut and bronze it yours for another year. Enjoy it.
Can someone with an understanding of the decision making behind the use of Salem for the DIII Final Four shed light on some questions:
a. Why Salem?
It doesn't seem to be very accessible - hence cost savings for teams compared to other venues do not seem like they would be significant.
b. How many more years are we committed to Salem?
c. What are some of the factors that go into that decision and who makes them?
d. Has anyone started to really push for an althernate site - eg., Calvin/Hope - where there might be more costs but the benefit could be a much larger crowd in a more DIII-like setting?
Playing the Final Four to a packed house in a great facility is a potential marketing extravaganza for all DIII institutions.
Quote from: DIIIghetto on February 05, 2010, 05:42:30 PM
Can someone with an understanding of the decision making behind the use of Salem for the DIII Final Four shed light on some questions:
a. Why Salem?
It doesn't seem to be very accessible - hence cost savings for teams compared to other venues do not seem like they would be significant.
b. How many more years are we committed to Salem?
c. What are some of the factors that go into that decision and who makes them?
d. Has anyone started to really push for an althernate site - eg., Calvin/Hope - where there might be more costs but the benefit could be a much larger crowd in a more DIII-like setting?
Playing the Final Four to a packed house in a great facility is a potential marketing extravaganza for all DIII institutions.
This is a good one for Pat or Ralph!
Quote from: DIIIghetto on February 05, 2010, 05:42:30 PM
Can someone with an understanding of the decision making behind the use of Salem for the DIII Final Four shed light on some questions:
a. Why Salem?
It doesn't seem to be very accessible - hence cost savings for teams compared to other venues do not seem like they would be significant.
b. How many more years are we committed to Salem?
c. What are some of the factors that go into that decision and who makes them?
d. Has anyone started to really push for an althernate site - eg., Calvin/Hope - where there might be more costs but the benefit could be a much larger crowd in a more DIII-like setting?
Playing the Final Four to a packed house in a great facility is a potential marketing extravaganza for all DIII institutions.
a. It’s Salem, because Salem puts in the best bids year after year. They’ve been doing it so long now and have it such a large part of their community that it’d be very difficult for any other site to match their bid. They’ve got manpower, job duties and everything else down to a science. NCAA evaluation committees know that they are going to get a quality tournament. I'm not even sure how many other locations even attempt to put in competitive bids anymore.
b. Bids for NCAA basketball championships usually go in two-year cycles. I’m not sure where we are at in that cycle. If 2010 is the end of a two-year cycle then I’m sure 2011 and 2012 have already been awarded to Salem. If 2010 is the beginning of the cycle then it’s possible that 2012 and 2013 are up for bid right now.
c. The NCAA championship committee made up of coaches and administrators chooses the site through available bids. Factors include (but aren’t limited to) facility, location, hotel availability, expected budget, banquet facility, available workforce, presentation and site visit.
d. Few bid on the men’s site anymore, because Salem is so entrenched. The biggest limiting factor is often manpower. Salem has such a large staff of volunteers who are committed to coming back every year that they can continue to do a bigger and better event each year without significant additional cost to the NCAA. I don’t think many schools think they can compete with what Salem does.
Good question. Thanks for asking.
The women have rotated.
Hope was the site of the 2008 women's tourney. Hope women were eliminated in the Elite 8 at Howard Payne in Brownwood.
Yes, there was a home court advantage. HPU may not have beaten Hope at Hope.
If I recall, the turnout for a "Hope-less" women's final four was okay, but IMHO not dramatic.
I like a neutral site, and if Salem can become that magical place where D-III tourneys are played, then that may become the special aspect of D-III.
It certainly works for Omaha in D-1 baseball.
If you're curious here's what the NCAA Bid Process looks like: http://bit.ly/cTK12v
Don't click it if you have a fear of paperwork.
That page also answered my question: Bidding for the 2012 and 2013 Men's D-III Championship is currently open. So if your school thinks they can top Salem tell your AD to get working on it now.
Having attended a Final Four in Salem, allow me to make the following observations:
1. It's a beautiful area with acceptable weather for that time of year. I was hitting golf balls at a driving range the morning of the game.
2. It is utterly inaccessible for air travel.
3. There are very few hotels, and they are all substandard.
4. The dining options are extremely limited, and equally mediocre.
5. It's a hike. I think DC is about the nearest major airport, and that's about 3 hours.
6. The gym is dark, uncomfortable, not intimate, and poorly laid out.
7. It is a neutral site.
Add it all up and here's my judgment: I can't see any good reason why the NCAA would want to keep going back there. The tournament will never grow so long as it is there.
In my estimation, the best possible place to have the tournament would be (I hate to say this): the VanNoord Arena at Calvin. It has the requisite seating, it's the second nicest arena in D3 that I've seen, and it has a staff that knows how to run things in a very professional manner. In addition, it is very close to a good-sized airport that takes in travel from virtually anywhere, and is adding direct flights all the time. It is closely located to a very large number of quality hotels and restaurants. It has on-site hosting (rooms and food) capabilities. It has excellent practice facilities. It is centrally located in the nation geographically. If you ask me, this one is pretty much a no-brainer. Calvin should put in a bid, and the NCAA should count their lucky stars if they do.
I disagree with a lot of that, but:
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 05, 2010, 10:18:39 PM
3. There are very few hotels, and they are all substandard.
This statement is just flat wrong. I've been to several Final Fours in Salem, and each time I've stayed in a different hotel. All of them were perfectly nice in every respect: clean, comfortable, convenient, reasonably priced, all the amenities I need. I'm not a plush-robe-mint-on-the-pillow type, but if I were, there's the Hotel Roanoke and any number of the higher-end chains as well.
I think Salem does a fine job and that the Civic Center is a fine venue for this tournament.
I'm not a mint-on-the-pillow guy either, but neither am I a bullet-in-the-head or a truck-outside-the-window sort of guy, and those seemed to be the main options (unless you wanted to pony up some serious cash). The hotels I looked at in Salem were dirty, unsafe, small, and substandard in every respect. They were dumps.
Check a map: there is not much in Salem proper. If you go to Roanoke you can find more, and better, hotels. It's a good 10 miles away. that might not seem like much, but it's not inconsequential.
Even if I were to concede the housing situation was acceptable (I'm not), there remains the restaurant options, the fact that Salem is inaccessible, and the Civic Center itself. I stand by my claim it's a bad location, that the tournament will never generate more support so long as it is there, and the the NCAA would be wise to cast its eyes elsewhere.
I'm not qualified to chime in much on this topic. I do think greater Roanoke is a gorgeous area, and if you factor in both Salem & Roanoke, there are plenty of lodging & restaurant options. Having the mountains and the Blue Ridge Parkway practically in Salem's backyard adds points to the venue for someone like myself who enjoys seeing the sites in addition watching basketball. Some decent wineries in the region are another plus.
Thanks for all of the feedback. It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids. I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament. It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do.
Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.
Calvin actually used to host the D3 men's Final Four back in the mid-Eighties. That's where we Vikings fans went when North Park won national championships #4 and #5.
The tournament started at Albright College in Reading, PA in the mid-Seventies, then moved out to the midwest to Augustana College in Rock Island, IL in the late Seventies and early Eighties. At that point in D3's history, that was probably a bit too far west for the D3 constituency; most of the current West Region teams and probably half of the current Midwest Region teams were still NAIA at that point.
It then went to Grand Rapids with Calvin as the host school, then on to Wittenberg University in Springfield, OH in the early Nineties, and then briefly on to Buffalo, NY (not sure what venue was used in the Queen City, but if they used Buffalo State Sports Arena -- the home of D3's Bengals -- it seats about 3,500) before it moved to Salem later in the Nineties.
Quote from: DIIIghetto on February 06, 2010, 08:03:40 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback. It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids. I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament. It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do.
Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.
The ODAC is the host conference and actually plays their conference tournament games (or at least the championship, not 100% sure) at the Salem Civic Center.
And while it seems like there isn't a D-III school in Salem, there actually is... Roanoke College is located in Salem.
Just to throw my two cents in... both times we went to Salem, we were treated very, very well. Our host family was the Sheriff and his wife and they treated us right. They actually came out to Stevens Point for a game or two after our trips there.
And while I agree that Hope and Calvin have great facilities, I kind of like the truly neutral site. Yes, it's pretty far away, especially from some of the midwest D-III powers... but we had plenty of a contingent there and I know Platteville brought lots too. Of course, if an ODAC team is there, then the crowd will be the biggest (I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!), but if your team is good enough for Salem, I think the fans will make the trip.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to
double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!
I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me. ;)
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PM
Quote from: DIIIghetto on February 06, 2010, 08:03:40 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback. It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids. I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament. It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do.
Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.
The ODAC is the host conference and actually plays their conference tournament games (or at least the championship, not 100% sure) at the Salem Civic Center.
And while it seems like there isn't a D-III school in Salem, there actually is... Roanoke College is located in Salem.
Just to throw my two cents in... both times we went to Salem, we were treated very, very well. Our host family was the Sheriff and his wife and they treated us right. They actually came out to Stevens Point for a game or two after our trips there.
And while I agree that Hope and Calvin have great facilities, I kind of like the truly neutral site. Yes, it's pretty far away, especially from some of the midwest D-III powers... but we had plenty of a contingent there and I know Platteville brought lots too. Of course, if an ODAC team is there, then the crowd will be the biggest (I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!), but if your team is good enough for Salem, I think the fans will make the trip.
Why is Salem more neutral than Grand Rapids? Like you said, there is a D3 team in Salem that could play a nearly home game, and the ODAC uses it for it's conference tournament. Was it very neutral when Virginia Wesleyan won the title a few years back?
Or do you mean that Roanoke doesn't actually play in the Civic Center, so no one makes it their home? If that's the case, the Van Andel arena in downtown Grand Rapids would be a good facility, although at nearly 11,000 capacity it may be a bit too large for the event.
Grand Rapids is very driveable for much of the great lakes region, the midwest region and even most of the WIAC, plus the Gerald R Ford airport can easily accommodate all of the necessary flights. The city of Grand Rapids, and downtown area is big enough to afford all of the amenities of a major city, without the huge city headaches. I feel it's good sized to support and rally around this type of event without it getting lost in the media shuffle of DI college or professional sports.
The downside to Grand Rapids in late March is the weather. You never know what you're gonna get. Record highs are in the upper 70s to low 80s, but the record lows are around 0 (average high temperatures are in the upper 40s.)
To be fair, the Civic Center was in Borat, so that's a plus.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!
I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me. ;)
But... double overtime is still overtime!
And I don't disagree with you, I just don't want to be wrong!
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!
I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me. ;)
That's from the extra salt. Players get sweattier in multiple overtime games.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 06, 2010, 09:53:42 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 06, 2010, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 09:16:24 PMI think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)
That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.
Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!
I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me. ;)
That's from the extra salt. Players get sweattier in multiple overtime games.
Blecch. Thanks for ruining my late dinner, O Dean of KSU. :P
I think the D3 tournament would be more well served to be on a college campus. The Salem facility is fine but it lacks the college feel in a big way. But it won't bother me too much if it continues to be there for several years to come.
Hopeconvert mentioned the poor seating at Salem, the two facilities at Hope and Calvin are at least 1 1/2 intimate (Calvin's lower bowl is excellent).......both facilities have a much better college atmosphere to them.......but these facilities are also a rarity in D3 at least excessive quality wise.
Who knows if either is interested in a long term arrangement, hosting these events is a big production.
Quote from: sac on February 06, 2010, 11:35:51 PM
I think the D3 tournament would be more well served to be on a college campus. The Salem facility is fine but it lacks the college feel in a big way. But it won't bother me too much if it continues to be there for several years to come.
Hopeconvert mentioned the poor seating at Salem, the two facilities at Hope and Calvin are at least 1 1/2 intimate (Calvin's lower bowl is excellent).......both facilities have a much better college atmosphere to them.......but these facilities are also a rarity in D3 at least excessive quality wise.
Who knows if either is interested in a long term arrangement, hosting these events is a big production.
I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full. The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...). The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people. It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...
As an aside, I actually see Calvin and Hope's gyms differently. I think (all based on pictures, I haven't been to either) that Hope's is more like a really nice D-III gym and it has a more homey feel... but that Calvin's is more like a D-I gym and feels more sterile and less "Calvin..." I don't know how else to describe it.
I think a big part of that has to do with the fact that Hope has the single level and Calvin has 2 levels. And despite the fact that it may feel less like a D-III gym, the fact of the matter is that it's still on campus, which gives it back some of that college feel.
As an aside... I didn't really like the temporary floor that they had in Salem. The floor seemed loose, which obviously wouldn't happen in a permanent facility. I don't think that it had any impact, but it is one thing I didn't like.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 11:56:31 PM
I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full. The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...). The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people. It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...
I think the average attendance in Salem the last few years (for both semifinal and championship nights) has been about 2500 or so. Any facility that seats 3500 or so is plenty big really.
There are no programs in Division III that would have 1500 fans at the Final Four...unless it was held in their own gym. In the Salem Era, Illinois Wesleyan, Hope, and Calvin have traveled the best probably, but I don't think any of the 3 has ever had 1000 there. Maybe 900 or so. I think a place like Hope's could easily have sections for each school.
I'm a huge Salem fan...all involved have done a great job over the years. That said, the crowds the last few years have been poor and thus, the atmosphere has suffered. I'm parital to Salem, but maybe it's time.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 11:56:31 PM
As an aside, I actually see Calvin and Hope's gyms differently. I think (all based on pictures, I haven't been to either) that Hope's is more like a really nice D-III gym and it has a more homey feel... but that Calvin's is more like a D-I gym and feels more sterile and less "Calvin..." I don't know how else to describe it.
I think a big part of that has to do with the fact that Hope has the single level and Calvin has 2 levels. And despite the fact that it may feel less like a D-III gym, the fact of the matter is that it's still on campus, which gives it back some of that college feel.
You are absolutely correct in your assessment, but I'll state again that Calvin's lower bowl is excellent and every bit the intimate atmosphere as Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse but only seats a little more than 1,000.
PointSpecial: They replaced the floor since the last time UWSP was there. In fact, they consistently make changes and upgrades to the Salem Civic Center. In the past few years they've replaced that awful padding on the walls behind the baskets, replaced the floor, replaced the scoreboard and replaced all the seats.
Here is a list of the teams that have made it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 through 2008-09):
Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Williams 4 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004) - NESCAC
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
UW-Stevens Point 2 (2004, 2005) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007) - NCAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Guilford 1 (2009) - ODAC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 09:01:36 AM
Here is a list of the teams that have made it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 through 2008-09):
Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Williams 4 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004) - NESCAC
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
UW-Stevens Point 2 (2004, 2005) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007) - NCAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - CAC/LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Guilford 1 (2009) - ODAC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC
Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.
Are there any other clarifications?
Miscellaneous notes on the above teams.
Average travel to Salem for the 56 entrants = 552 miles
(using: https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles)
Longest trip – 1121 miles (Nebraska Wesleyan, 1997)
Shortest trip – 102 miles (Guilford, 2009)
56 participants by state (counting Amherst 4 times, IWU 4 times, etc):
Massachusetts: 9
Pennsylvania: 8
Ohio: 6
Wisconsin: 6
Michigan: 5
Illinois: 4
New Jersey: 4
Virginia: 4
Missouri: 3
New York: 2
Connecticut: 1
DC: 1
Minnesota: 1
North Carolina: 1
Nebraska: 1
Distribution by U.S. geographic regions:
(Abritrarily using: http://www.22q13.org/images/resources/usmap.jpg)
Midwest (OH, MI, IL, IN, MO, IA, WI): 25
Northeast (PA and up): 24
East/Southeast (including DC, VA, NC): 6
Northwest (west and north of MO/IA: 1
Southwest: 0
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2010, 09:04:50 AM
Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.
Are there any other clarifications?
Thanks Ralph. I was actually trying to slot teams based on where they currently reside.
Speaking strictly from a geographic standpoint, it seems like Ohio would be an ideal state to host the D3 Final Four.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 09:17:05 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2010, 09:04:50 AM
Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.
Are there any other clarifications?
Thanks Ralph. I was actually trying to slot teams based on where they currently reside.
Oh, thank you. Great information.
I appreciate your doing this.
One other thought about location...
In my opinion, the location should either be 1) as centrally located as possible (Ohio for example), OR 2) located near a major airport. (Nailing both would be ideal....Salem is neither.)
The problem with Salem, geographically, is that it is not as easy place for fans to get to with short notice. In other words, your teams wins a Sectional final game on Saturday night at 9:00pm or so. You only have about 4 days (Sunday-Wednesday) to finalize travel plans. As indicated above, many schools are located a good 10+ hour drive away from Salem, VA. That's really tough to pull off for many...especially considering the semifinal games start at about 5:00pm on Friday. So then you look into flying. While the airport in Roanoke is very nice as far as small, regional airports go, the fact is that it is, well, a small, regional airport. Two big problems: 1) Flight options are limited, and 2) When booking with just 3-4 days notice, airfare is out of control - like $700 or so (typically more out of control than flying into a major airport with extremely short notice). Greensboro is an option to fly into (I went that route once), but it's a 1:30 drive to Salem.
For someone like me who plans a trip to the D3 Final Four every year, and purchases airfare months out, getting to Salem isn't bad at all. But for the fan who wants to follow their team, I think Salem can be a tough place to get to. I'm guessing all of the "hardcore" fans (including families) find a way to get there regardless of difficulties...but I think we lose at lot of the more casual fans of each school.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 12:10:10 AM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 06, 2010, 11:56:31 PM
I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full. The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...). The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people. It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...
I think the average attendance in Salem the last few years (for both semifinal and championship nights) has been about 2500 or so. Any facility that seats 3500 or so is plenty big really.
There are no programs in Division III that would have 1500 fans at the Final Four...unless it was held in their own gym. In the Salem Era, Illinois Wesleyan, Hope, and Calvin have traveled the best probably, but I don't think any of the 3 has ever had 1000 there. Maybe 900 or so. I think a place like Hope's could easily have sections for each school.
I'm a huge Salem fan...all involved have done a great job over the years. That said, the crowds the last few years have been poor and thus, the atmosphere has suffered. I'm parital to Salem, but maybe it's time.
Although if Calvin/Hope made it to a final four in the Holland/Grand Rapids area, Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse and Calvin's Van Noord Arena may both be too small.
One nice thing about Salem that gets overlooked (I think) is that the Civic Center is built just for events like this. On-campus gyms tend to be built to serve mostly students and local folks who will be there for 2 hours, not long-distance travelers who will stay for a weekend. Campus gyms are generally part of a larger multi-use PE complex, whereas everything about the Civic Center points to the basketball arena as the focal point of activity. It has a huge parking lot, hospitality rooms, concession stands in four places, large lobby, etc., amenities on-campus facilites (at the D3 level) tend to lack.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Speaking strictly from a geographic standpoint, it seems like Ohio would be an ideal state to host the D3 Final Four.
Wittenberg used to host the finals. I'm not sure how well that would work these days. The gym itself is acceptable (3000 seats, not as comfy as Salem) but it's not an arena with the amenities that the Civic Center has. It's near Dayton, but I don't think that's much of an improvement over Roanoke, airport-wise. Columbus, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis are within a few hours, like the Mid-Atlantic airports are to Salem. I can't even begin to imagine the parking problems there might be for a Final Four at Pam Evans Smith Arena.
IIRC, Wooster has the only other on-campus gym of the correct size (about 3200), but all of the problems Witt has are worse for Wooster: farther from airport, smaller city, no parking, etc. Unlike the Salem/Roanoke area, Wooster really
doesn't have enough hotels or restaurants.
I can't think of an off-campus facility in any of the major cities that wouldn't be overwhelmingly too large. Maybe an on-campus arena for a MAC-type D1 team? Ohio U. has a facility that would be perfect, but Athens is even harder to get to than Salem. I don't know about the gyms at Akron, Toledo, etc.
I don't see an obvious Ohio-based solution here.
I've always thought the La Crosse Center in La Crosse, Wis. would make a great venue for a Final Four. In fact, I believe they unsuccesfully bid on the Women's D-III Final Four a few years ago. La Crosse is a D-III town but not a major metro where the event would get lost in the noise. It has a decent airport with additional access to larger airports (Madison, Minneapolis). The arena is in a great downtown location with lots of hotels.
http://www.lacrossecenter.com/index.aspx?nid=74
(This is not where UW-La Crosse plays)
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 09:12:46 AM
Miscellaneous notes on the above teams.
Average travel to Salem for the 56 entrants = 552 miles
(using: https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles)
Longest trip – 1121 miles (Nebraska Wesleyan, 1997)
Shortest trip – 102 miles (Guilford, 2009)
I wonder what the median is for distance... Neb Wesleyan is kind of out on an island, and if a SCIAC or NWC team ever make it, they would severely skew the results in terms of a mean.
I don't know if the rules are different for the final 4, but teams that are more than 500 miles (I think that's the distance...) would fly as opposed to being bussed.
Even if the the Final 4 was at Wittenberg or Wooster, a team like Stevens Point would still fly... but that would bring Illinois and Michigan within driving distance. Amherst and Williams would still fly too.
I wonder if there's a cheaper destination, in terms of teams flying there... Would Ohio be that, or not?
Quote from: David Collinge on February 07, 2010, 12:15:51 PM
One nice thing about Salem that gets overlooked (I think) is that the Civic Center is built just for events like this. On-campus gyms tend to be built to serve mostly students and local folks who will be there for 2 hours, not long-distance travelers who will stay for a weekend. Campus gyms are generally part of a larger multi-use PE complex, whereas everything about the Civic Center points to the basketball arena as the focal point of activity. It has a huge parking lot, hospitality rooms, concession stands in four places, large lobby, etc., amenities on-campus facilites (at the D3 level) tend to lack.
I agree, David. I like the civic center-type facility much better than something on-campus. I'm almost to the point though where I'd be willing to give in on some of the amenities in exchange for better geographic location. I'm just bothered by crowds for the national semifinal and national championship games that are in the 2400 neighborhood.
Bloomington, IL has U.S. Cellular Colliseum...
http://www.uscellularcoliseum.com/facility/gallery/index.html?c=1&id=7&t=9
Great facility in a D3 town, but I don't think Bloomington is all that much better in terms of travel than Salem.
I'd also be nice to host in a strong D3 community where you could pull in a local base of 500-750 fans. I don't think the locals in Roanoke-Salem embrace the D3 Final Four all that much.
I don't really have many solutions here unfortunately.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 07, 2010, 01:44:18 PM
I'd also be nice to host in a strong D3 community where you could pull in a local base of 500-750 fans. I don't think the locals in Roanoke-Salem embrace the D3 Final Four all that much.
Our second year in Salem, we were watching the first semi-final game before ours and I noticed a guy in his 30's with a couple of kids. They were sitting behind one of the baskets and I asked them who they were rooting for. He said they were locals and they'd come the past few years.
I don't know how many locals would do that, and I agree that you'd likely get more in a bigger D-III hotbed, but I'm not sure how much the Final Four is marketed in the local Salem area. I know it's covered in the papers and stuff... but I don't know other than that. It seems like a little more marketing might get some more locals interested.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 07, 2010, 01:31:25 PM
I don't know if the rules are different for the final 4, but teams that are more than 500 miles (I think that's the distance...) would fly as opposed to being bussed.
Even if the the Final 4 was at Wittenberg or Wooster, a team like Stevens Point would still fly... but that would bring Illinois and Michigan within driving distance. Amherst and Williams would still fly too.
I wonder if there's a cheaper destination, in terms of teams flying there... Would Ohio be that, or not?
Another thing to consider is that maybe more fans from a place like Stevens Point (or any number of WIAC, or CCIW schools) would be able to attend a Final Four in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, or Ohio because they would be able to drive, even if the team still flew.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 07, 2010, 01:31:25 PM
I wonder what the median is for distance... Neb Wesleyan is kind of out on an island, and if a SCIAC or NWC team ever make it, they would severely skew the results in terms of a mean.
When you list all 56 Salem teams, and the distances from campus to Salem, the median is 626 miles.
(Again, I'm counting Amherst's 631 miles 4 miles, and IWU's 657 miles 4 times, etc.)
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 05, 2010, 11:01:15 PM
I'm not a mint-on-the-pillow guy either, but neither am I a bullet-in-the-head or a truck-outside-the-window sort of guy, and those seemed to be the main options (unless you wanted to pony up some serious cash). The hotels I looked at in Salem were dirty, unsafe, small, and substandard in every respect. They were dumps.
Check a map: there is not much in Salem proper. If you go to Roanoke you can find more, and better, hotels. It's a good 10 miles away. that might not seem like much, but it's not inconsequential.
Even if I were to concede the housing situation was acceptable (I'm not), there remains the restaurant options, the fact that Salem is inaccessible, and the Civic Center itself. I stand by my claim it's a bad location, that the tournament will never generate more support so long as it is there, and the the NCAA would be wise to cast its eyes elsewhere.
Convert, as someone who has been to 10 of the 14 Final Fours in Salem I am comfortable saying you are way off here regarding hotels and restaurants. I don't think you've done enough homework in finding options in either category.
Roanoke has a bunch of your typical "business traveler" hotels...newer, clean, comfortable, etc. Most are over by the mall, with all of your standard chain restaurant options (Friday's, Outback, etc, etc). Downtown Roanoke also has several good restaurants and bars...downtown is also where Hotel Roanoke is, which is very nice. From Roanoke to the Salem Civic Center is only about 15 minutes.
Downtown Salem has good ole Mac & Bob's, where I have watched many an NCAA D1 tournament game with friends to kill time on game days...and never had anything but good food.
You need to ask around a little more the next time the Flying Dutchmen head to Salem. I have a lot of concerns with the issue of Salem's location, but I have none with the quality of hotels, restaurants, etc.
P.S. Make sure to have a Cheesy Western at the Texas Tavern in downtown Roanoke next time. I'd give you directions, but I've only been there between 1:00am and 2:00am and my memory is always a little fuzzy!
Titan Q - well said. I was going to write the same thing. I have stayed at a number of hotels in the nine Final Fours I have gone to and I have never had a bad place. They are plenty of good chain hotels, even some in Salem, and the restaurants from the chains to the Mac and Bob type places in Salem and Roanoke are wonderful.
Personally, I am partial to Salem. It is a 4 to 4 1/2 drive from the Baltimore area for me and I get to see some beautiful areas of the country on my drive into western Maryland, and into West Virginia and western Virginia. While I don't fly to the area and I realize Roanoke isn't easy to fly in and out of... it is possible. Dulles is three hours away and people forget they can fly into Greensboro about 100 miles away.
I am impressed with how much Salem has done in the last ten years to improve things... new floor, new scoreboards and clocks, new seats, etc. And they have always been terrific with me, Hoopsville, and the D3hoops.com staff... so I always look forward to my visit to the area (I am heading down for my tenth straight visit and even going down a day early this time).
No... I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a new place, but my biggest concern is actually the struggles I have seen with the women's side. Most host sites only keep it for two years so they don't get a chance to either get the kinks out and run a smooth operation... or allow the rest of us to adjust and get used to a facility and the area. Also, with an always changing location... you just don't comfortable with it all... though I am bias.
One huge advantage I know I like is the simple fact I know exactly what to expect when I head to Salem.
There has to be a way we can substitute this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVjCZWfXZtE), with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3mJvgIMycc). The bleachers the wash u fans were on in salem look pretty temporary, is there a reason that they put the front row 50 feet from from the court? You've got a big, mostly empty gym, and we're still worried about the atmosphere getting too crazy with the fans too close to the court? Great seats for uninterested reporters, but the fans who miraculously made it to salem are rewarded with fences, walkways and tables between them and the action. Put the game in a real gym where a sellout is possible, or put it in a major arena in a major city fans can get to easily and enjoy the game in a gym built for basketball.
Those seats are no more than 20 feet from the court. The one row in between is where the coaches have space to scout games. There's enough room to walk on each side of that barrier and not a lot more.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 03:20:05 AM
Those seats are no more than 20 feet from the court. The one row in between is where the coaches have space to scout games. There's enough room to walk on each side of that barrier and not a lot more.
That's 15 feet too far IMO. Salem certainly seems to do things the right way, but the things they can't change (their location and their gym), hold it back. The place is better suited to host a rodeo.
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkim327.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F01%2Fbronco-riding4.jpg%3Fw%3D480%26amp%3Bh%3D244&hash=15183102fa29150b356cf72a9bc1505bd2e66cef)
Quote from: AO on February 07, 2010, 11:11:17 PM
Great seats for uninterested reporters
Don't know one "reporter" who is at the Final Four who is uninterested. Whether its those following the teams there... the local broadcasters... those from CBS College Sports... or the staff at D3hoops.com... every person with a press pass seems interested in every aspect of the game.
Sure... I think the bleachers could be moved closer a bit... but that also means more powder from the Wash U fans will get on the court! :)
I wonder if AO is basing his entire Salem assumptions on a YouTube clip.
From the perspective of this fan who has attended 3 final 4's at Salem, it has both advantages and disadvantages.
Positives: ample seating that is reasonably comfortable
spacious facility, lobby space, meeting rooms, reception rooms, etc
excellent parking availability and accessibility
experienced event management
lots of community participation in hosting the event
adequate hotel and restaurant facilities
scenic area
located in a medium size city
Negatives: not geographically equidistant to all potential participants
event facility located several miles from most amenities
travel to location moderately inconvenient for many who attend
facility lacks ambiance of college campus
The geographic issue is most difficult since the participating institutions are never known in advance. In my view, having the seating as it is at Salem is an advantage: it would be unfair if a school that happened to be located near the event could fill 1000 or more seats within a couple feet of the court, as is common in campus facilities. A team located at much greater distance from Salem, and having less potential for fans to attend, would be at a marked disadvantage, just like home court vs road court differences. For a championship event, court neutrality is desirable. Finally, it seems unrealistic today to expect more than several hundred fans for any school to travel to the final 4. A facility that accommodates more than 3-4000 will rarely be needed, it seems. Moving the event to a large city would increase some hassles, make travel potentially easier, make the event more expensive for fans, and maybe make other attractions more numerous and accessible--entirely a matter of personal taste. Salem is OK with me.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 03:20:05 AM
Those seats are no more than 20 feet from the court. The one row in between is where the coaches have space to scout games. There's enough room to walk on each side of that barrier and not a lot more.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 10:53:16 AM
I wonder if AO is basing his entire Salem assumptions on a YouTube clip.
I remember being disappointed in 2005 that we had to sit so far away from the action. You really do feel removed from the game in that particular student section area, so his assumptions seem accurate to me, even if they are based on a YouTube clip.
The Salem Civic Center was a good venue for the games, but it was unremarkable. Nothing stood out to me about the location that made me feel like it had to be there. Maybe it was because, as students, we were more concerned with keeping the trip affordable than exploring the local scene.
I am not sure that your fourth negative is necessarily a negative, r-buddy. I don't think it's meant to be like a college gymnasium. This is the national championship, after all.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 10:53:16 AM
I wonder if AO is basing his entire Salem assumptions on a YouTube clip.
What else can I base it on? How can we get this game on cbs or espn2? Maybe d3 hoops will never have the audience for a major, national broadcast, but putting the game in a packed gym featuring the top two teams in the nation couldn't hurt. As it is, Wash U played its three toughest games in the first three games with the third being more highly attended than the championship game.
Well you know Salem is both in The South and Appalachia where we all know there are rednecks and hillbillies with guns and stuff they just don't have in Ohio.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 11:14:07 AM
I am not sure that your fourth negative is necessarily a negative, r-buddy. I don't think it's meant to be like a college gymnasium. This is the national championship, after all.
I agree. I like that it has more of an "arena feel" vs a "gym feel." It should feel different than other games.
From a facility standpoint, I have no issues with the Salem Civic Center at all. I've enjoyed it as a fan of a team in the Final Four, a neutral fan in the stands, and as a broadcaster.
I am on the pro Salem side.... I'm thinking of cost, and I don't mind a long drive... the relatively inexpensive choices of Ramada, Hampton, Holiday Inn etc, and typical fast food/hotel free breakfast were absolutely fine with me. Long drive from St. Louis, but able to be done same day as semis, if you get up early. And the facility - I'm not picky.. I loved it ...it had that National Championship Ambience... And last time I was there, there was a women's college softball tourney going on too, so our Saturday morning, early afternoon was also pleasantly filled.
http://athletics.uindy.edu/sports/2008/10/16/sidebar_657.aspx?id=152
http://www.butlersports.com/information/facilities/hinkle_fieldhouse
I have enjoyed the trips to Salem and the people involved with the finals have been both supportive and gracious hosts. A site with easier airport access might make it more attractive to the more casual fan and potentially student supporters as well.
LOVE the idea of Hinkle Fieldhouse! 8-) What a great basketball facility that is! And you can't get much more centrally located than Indianapolis!
Another possible venue could be Cleveland State's Wolstein Center (http://www.csuohio.edu/wolsteincenter/)
They've hosted the DI tournament on multiple occasions at the Wolstein and I really thought this quote stood out to me the most:
QuoteOur main arena accommodates over 14,000 guests but can be easily downsized to create a more intimate setting for smaller crowds.
That almost sounds exactly what we are looking for IMO...
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 11:14:07 AM
I am not sure that your fourth negative is necessarily a negative, r-buddy. I don't think it's meant to be like a college gymnasium. This is the national championship, after all.
To clarify (as I meant to do in my concluding comments), I agree that the seating located 20 feet from the court is not a negative a championship event that should have the feel of a neutral court. For games during the season I share the preference for seating that is closer to the court.
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 12:23:44 PM
LOVE the idea of Hinkle Fieldhouse! 8-) What a great basketball facility that is! And you can't get much more centrally located than Indianapolis!
Another possible venue could be Cleveland State's Wolstein Center (http://www.csuohio.edu/wolsteincenter/)
They've hosted the DI tournament on multiple occasions at the Wolstein and I really thought this quote stood out to me the most:
QuoteOur main arena accommodates over 14,000 guests but can be easily downsized to create a more intimate setting for smaller crowds.
That almost sounds exactly what we are looking for IMO...
Indianapolis is one of my favorite cities to visit. I'd be happy with anything between Chicago and Cleveland, it might make the Final Four a yearly visit for me, but I hardly expect the NCAA to take my attendance into consideration when deciding between bids.
Quote from: NBC's 30 RockIf the whole world moved to their favorite vacation spots, then the whole world would live in Hawaii and Italy and Cleveland.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 08, 2010, 12:32:00 PM
I'd be happy with anything between Chicago and Cleveland, it might make the Final Four a yearly visit for me...
I think that you are not alone in those thoughts which is why the NCAA should take a serious look at moving the Final 4 to a city that is not only more easily accessible than Salem, but also more centrally located geographically speaking. Not only is Indy or Cleveland much more centrally located, they are also located in areas that have a strong D3 fan presense and I think a lot more 'neutral' fans would turn out for the event than what we see in Salem.
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
LOL! :D
Hinkle Fieldhouse would be wonderful! Indianapolis is centrally located and accessible by air or ground transportation, and the venue is one of the best historic structures in college basketball.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 11:14:07 AM
I am not sure that your fourth negative is necessarily a negative, r-buddy. I don't think it's meant to be like a college gymnasium. This is the national championship, after all.
This is a great point... For D-III, Salem is relatively "big time." And if you look at the D-I championship, it isn't like the Duke student section gets their floor seats for the game...
I went to the women's final four in Terra Haute in 2002 (At Rose Hullman) and they had a very, very nice facility (one of my favorite for D-III actually), but it very much had a D-III feel... not anything more special than a playoff game.
Salem, however, DID have a different feel because of the size of the venue. Now, perhaps you'd still get that at some place like Calvin, which is considerably bigger than pretty much every other D-III gym in the country (heck, it's an arena, not a gym)... but you also then give Calvin a big home court advantage if they make it there and host.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 08, 2010, 02:31:29 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 11:14:07 AM
I am not sure that your fourth negative is necessarily a negative, r-buddy. I don't think it's meant to be like a college gymnasium. This is the national championship, after all.
This is a great point... For D-III, Salem is relatively "big time." And if you look at the D-I championship, it isn't like the Duke student section gets their floor seats for the game...
I went to the women's final four in Terra Haute in 2002 (At Rose Hullman) and they had a very, very nice facility (one of my favorite for D-III actually), but it very much had a D-III feel... not anything more special than a playoff game.
Salem, however, DID have a different feel because of the size of the venue. Now, perhaps you'd still get that at some place like Calvin, which is considerably bigger than pretty much every other D-III gym in the country (heck, it's an arena, not a gym)... but you also then give Calvin a big home court advantage if they make it there and host.
The D-1 championship doesn't do it right either. Putting a court in the middle of a football field is one way to get a lot of people in the door, but it's also a great way to guarantee terrible seats for everyone. Looks great on tv though.
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
LOL! :D
Might as well dream big! ;D
Really I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be great!
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
LOL! :D
Might as well dream big! ;D
Really I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be great!
I saw my first game at Hinkle Fieldhouse right before Christmas this year. It was the Butler-Xavier game, which had a crazy ending.
It would certainly be an amazing and historic place to have the DIII tourney.
Honestly, my biggest complaint about Salem is location and accessibility. I was able to attend the 2008 Final Four because I lived in DC at the time so I could drive the 3.5-4 hours from DC on Friday on short notice.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a D-I or D-II school who is going to get on board to rent/share their facility for a D-III tournament. I think they would almost certainly choose to not book the venue so their own teams could practice, rather than host a tournament, that they aren't part of and likely won't make much money on.
Doesn't Hinkle Fieldhouse hold about 10,000? In my opinion, that's way too big.
Even if all the stars align and we find the perfect location (allowing fans to get there and with a strong local base), and we have 4 teams that travel well, I think 5000 is about the most we'd ever have at the D3 Final Four. (Most years it will be about 3500.)
Unless we want a mostly-empty building, I think the best bet is the civic center type place in a mid-sized community. The kind of place they play minor league hockey and arena football in...maybe mix in a little Def Leppard/Journey concert...and a rodeo. A 5000-6000 seat arena (basketball seating capacity) is about as big as we need.
I think the Salem Civic Center is just the right size actually.
Honestly, when you look at all factors, there are more pros than cons to Salem. Maybe we just need to accept the location issue and move on.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 08, 2010, 05:32:16 PM
Doesn't Hinkle Fieldhouse hold about 10,000? In my opinion, that's way too big.
Even if all the stars align and we find the perfect location (allowing fans to get there and with a strong local base), and we have 4 teams that travel well, I think 5000 is about the most we'd ever have at the D3 Final Four. (Most years it will be about 3500.)
Unless we want a mostly-empty building, I think the best bet is the civic center type place in a mid-sized community. The kind of place they play minor league hockey and arena football in...maybe mix in a little Def Leppard/Journey concert...and a rodeo. A 5000-6000 seat arena (basketball seating capacity) is about as big as we need.
I think the Salem Civic Center is just the right size actually.
Honestly, when you look at all factors, there are more pros than cons to Salem. Maybe we just need to accept the location issue and move on.
I agree that we really don't need a stadium any larger than 5,000-6,000 making Hinkle way to large. I also agree with an earlier comment that it would make no sense for Butler to go along with it either.
And the odds of more than 5,000 attending a DIII Final Four is probably pretty small outside of a scenario where the Final Four is in Grand Rapids and Hope and/or Calvin are playing.
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio. Amherst or Williams or an NJAC school may never bring 800 fans to Salem the way Hope, Calvin, Ohio Northern, Illinois Wesleyan, UW-Platteville and others have, but more might make the trip from other schools if the trip were different.
I don't think the Stagg Bowl is movable. But the Final Four could at least conceivably work in other venues aside from the Salem Civic Center. The thing is, the student-athlete experience is very important to those working on Division III sports committees, and Salem continually excels in this area. The fan experience and the Civic Center itself has improved as well from my first Salem Final Four (1998) to today.
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
LOL! :D
Might as well dream big! ;D
Really I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be great!
That lucasoilstadium pdf reminded me of the 1968 game between UHouston's Elvin Hayes and UCLA's Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar).
The nationally televised game before 52,693 fans in the Astrodome was dubbed the "Game of the Century". UH won 71-69.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvin_Hayes
We old-timers can remember that one!
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 03:58:25 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 12:52:40 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 08, 2010, 12:47:10 PM
http://www.lucasoilstadium.com/Assets/userfiles/PDFs/South_Endzone_Basketball.pdf
LOL! :D
Might as well dream big! ;D
Really I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be great!
That lucasoilstadium pdf reminded me of the 1968 game between UHouston's Elvin Hayes and UCLA's Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar).
The nationally televised game before 52,693 fans in the Astrodome was dubbed the "Game of the Century". UH won 71-69.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvin_Hayes
We old-timers can remember that one!
Yep! AND we remember the rematch in the national semi-final: UCLA 101, Houston 69!
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
I've been to high school state basketball tournaments down there before the days of Value City Arena and St. John doesn't feel that big to me. As it stated in one of the write-ups, the furthest seat in the house is only 155 ft. from center court.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
The thing is, the student-athlete experience is very important to those working on Division III sports committees, and Salem continually excels in this area. The fan experience and the Civic Center itself has improved as well from my first Salem Final Four (1998) to today.
I totally agree. We were treated right in Salem. It might be possible to move that someplace else... but you'd need a lot of dedicated people to commit to that. I think the Final Four has been a Salem institution for long enough that it's an annual event for many Salem people (who are doing the behind-the-scenes work). You may eventually get that someplace else... but I don't think it's a given right off the bat. (How was Salem in the first few years Pat?)
I think that's sort of along the lines of what was mentioned with the Women's tournament. Because it's bounced around every two years, there isn't a chance to work out the kinks, and I think Salem has worked many of those kinks out and made marked improvements to boot.
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
I've been to high school state basketball tournaments down there before the days of Value City Arena and St. John doesn't feel that big to me. As it stated in one of the write-ups, the furthest seat in the house is only 155 ft. from center court.
... But if 10,000 seats are empty, that close to the floor... it very well might take away from the feel from the 3k who ARE there.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 08, 2010, 08:20:57 PM
I totally agree. We were treated right in Salem. It might be possible to move that someplace else... but you'd need a lot of dedicated people to commit to that. I think the Final Four has been a Salem institution for long enough that it's an annual event for many Salem people (who are doing the behind-the-scenes work). You may eventually get that someplace else... but I don't think it's a given right off the bat. (How was Salem in the first few years Pat?)
I was in Salem the first two years ('96 and '97), following IWU. I remember all of the coaches and players talking about how well they were treated, how well organized it was, etc.. The people behind the Salem experience have been doing it right from the very beginning.
And what has helped Salem from the get-go is the fact that hosting tournaments, whether it is high school or college, is something they have been doing for a long time. The Men's Final Four wasn't the first tournament or championship they hosted... they have hosted quite a few.
What also helps... is the support they get from the ODAC and Roanoke College has to be invaluable and something I don't think is mentioned enough. From the ODAC commissioner Brad Bankston and his staff (including J.J. Nekoloff) down to the students and other assistance the Slame Civic Center gets from Roanoke College... it is a very well-oiled machine. As many have mentioned... a new hosting site would probably have to recreate everything from the very basics on up... and that is not easy to do and do well especially the first year.
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 08, 2010, 08:20:57 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
The thing is, the student-athlete experience is very important to those working on Division III sports committees, and Salem continually excels in this area. The fan experience and the Civic Center itself has improved as well from my first Salem Final Four (1998) to today.
I totally agree. We were treated right in Salem. It might be possible to move that someplace else... but you'd need a lot of dedicated people to commit to that. I think the Final Four has been a Salem institution for long enough that it's an annual event for many Salem people (who are doing the behind-the-scenes work). You may eventually get that someplace else... but I don't think it's a given right off the bat. (How was Salem in the first few years Pat?)
I think that's sort of along the lines of what was mentioned with the Women's tournament. Because it's bounced around every two years, there isn't a chance to work out the kinks, and I think Salem has worked many of those kinks out and made marked improvements to boot.
My first one was year three. But before that, they had hosted a couple of Stagg Bowls, so at least they had some volunteer and staff infrastructure in place and experience dealing with the NCAA.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 08, 2010, 08:36:02 PM
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 08, 2010, 08:20:57 PM
I totally agree. We were treated right in Salem. It might be possible to move that someplace else... but you'd need a lot of dedicated people to commit to that. I think the Final Four has been a Salem institution for long enough that it's an annual event for many Salem people (who are doing the behind-the-scenes work). You may eventually get that someplace else... but I don't think it's a given right off the bat. (How was Salem in the first few years Pat?)
I was in Salem the first two years ('96 and '97), following IWU. I remember all of the coaches and players talking about how well they were treated, how well organized it was, etc.. The people behind the Salem experience have been doing it right from the very beginning.
Agree with Q having attended the IWU trips. I'd also add the Salem-Roanoke community gets involved and supports the effort. You might find other or better venues, but will you get the commitment from the community? The other point which gives Salem Civic Center an advantage is the effort, along with financial investment, to constantly improve the experience.
3. There are very few hotels, and they are all substandard.
http://www.visitroanokeva.com/venueSubCat.asp?CAT=1&SCAT=1 A comprehensive list of hotels in the Roanoke/Salem area. If you can't find one on that list that is good quality, you aren't trying at all.
4. The dining options are extremely limited, and equally mediocre.
http://www.visitroanokeva.com/venue.asp?CAT=3 Like the previous point, if you can't find a quality restaurant on there, you once again aren't trying at all.
If you haven't noticed on the front page... Salem has been awarded the Final Four through next season, now.
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Michigan might be closer to the largest number of teams, but we're only talking about four teams here.
Generally, the brackets get split up with two coming from the area between Virginia and Maine and the other two coming from the rest of the country. Obviously this is an over generalization, but for the sake of the argument, moving further west inconveniences half the field.
And God forbid that we ever do anything to inconvenience the east teams!
Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 17, 2010, 05:46:10 PM
Michigan might be closer to the largest number of teams, but we're only talking about four teams here.
Generally, the brackets get split up with two coming from the area between Virginia and Maine and the other two coming from the rest of the country. Obviously this is an over generalization, but for the sake of the argument, moving further west inconveniences half the field.
I would argue anyone who isn't within 3-4 hours driving time that has to travel to Salem on short notice is already inconvenienced. This would include most of the teams from VA through Maine. It's just not an easy place to get to.
After the run at Salem how about the newly renovated Battelle Grand in Columbus, OH. Close to the arena district, lots of hotel space a new hotel coming 2012 and formerly hosted the NCAA DI Mid American Conference conference tournament. More intimate than St. John's. Cool looking building (not real important, I know). Good airport access, Ohio Athletic Conference as a host conference. Great college sports town.
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 17, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
After the run at Salem how about the newly renovated Battelle Grand in Columbus, OH. Close to the arena district, lots of hotel space a new hotel coming 2012 and formerly hosted the NCAA DI Mid American Conference conference tournament. More intimate than St. John's. Cool looking building (not real important, I know). Good airport access, Ohio Athletic Conference as a host conference. Great college sports town.
Have you seen the attendance figures for Cap or Ott, or seen their coverage in the Columbus paper? It is an
Ohio State town (if that even counts as college sports)! :D
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
13,000 seats crammed into an area that should hold about 8,000. It was a great place to watch a game in its day,
and yes its too big for D3.
And as for Columbus, see the above post. ;)
Quote from: sac on February 17, 2010, 07:10:38 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
13,000 seats crammed into an area that should hold about 8,000. It was a great place to watch a game in its day,
and yes its too big for D3.
Also too big for D3 (but definitely my favorite Columbus arena) is Nationwide Arena (http://www.nationwidearena.com/seating/#), home of the Columbus Bluejackets. You can see pictures of what it looks like in a basketball configuration from that link. I think it'd be about the right size for the mythical final four of Hope, Calvin, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan; all other years it'd be a bit large. ;)
Quote from: kiltedbryan on February 17, 2010, 09:58:35 PM
Quote from: sac on February 17, 2010, 07:10:38 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
13,000 seats crammed into an area that should hold about 8,000. It was a great place to watch a game in its day,
and yes its too big for D3.
Also too big for D3 (but definitely my favorite Columbus arena) is Nationwide Arena (http://www.nationwidearena.com/seating/#), home of the Columbus Bluejackets. You can see pictures of what it looks like in a basketball configuration from that link. I think it'd be about the right size for the mythical final four of Hope, Calvin, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan; all other years it'd be a bit large. ;)
Even that would be too big for Hope/Calvin/Woo/IWU... though those 4 would all bring lots of fans, most are only going to stay for their game, so you likely won't get more than, say, 6000 for each game. The basketball config
seats 19,500 (http://www.nationwidearena.com/arena/quickfacts.php)
Quote from: PointSpecial on February 17, 2010, 10:33:58 PM
Quote from: kiltedbryan on February 17, 2010, 09:58:35 PM
Quote from: sac on February 17, 2010, 07:10:38 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 08, 2010, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 08, 2010, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 08, 2010, 06:01:14 PM
Perhaps. I think a venue of 6,000 seats more centrally located would have a shot at filling those seats. I've long considered the epicenter of Division III to be somewhere around Columbus, Ohio.
How about St. John arena on the campus of Ohio State? There would be no scheduling conflict with hoops as the men's and women's teams now play at Value City Arena. St. John Arena is now home to men's and women's volleyball, men's and women's gymnastics and men's wrestling at OSU.
St. John Arena (http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=17300&KEY=&ATCLID=925273)
St. John Arena - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_Arena)
13,000 seats? The event would be swallowed!
Gotta go thumbs down on that one.
13,000 seats crammed into an area that should hold about 8,000. It was a great place to watch a game in its day,
and yes its too big for D3.
Also too big for D3 (but definitely my favorite Columbus arena) is Nationwide Arena (http://www.nationwidearena.com/seating/#), home of the Columbus Bluejackets. You can see pictures of what it looks like in a basketball configuration from that link. I think it'd be about the right size for the mythical final four of Hope, Calvin, Wooster and Illinois Wesleyan; all other years it'd be a bit large. ;)
Even that would be too big for Hope/Calvin/Woo/IWU... though those 4 would all bring lots of fans, most are only going to stay for their game, so you likely won't get more than, say, 6000 for each game. The basketball config seats 19,500 (http://www.nationwidearena.com/arena/quickfacts.php)
As someone who has played a game in a 20000 seat arena with only 6000 in attendance, I can tell you that it's still plenty fun and plenty loud. Anything above 2000 can get loud no matter which building you put them in. There might be 15000 empty seats, but the fans that are there are closer to the action than they would be in the salem civic center.
Well, it's obviously oversized, but it's a great arena and would definitely feel "big-time" for D3 players and fans who attend. Obviously, if it were held in a venue as large as Nationwide Arena, you'd only need to use the lower bowl of seating...and from the images and my personal recollections of both being to Salem twice and being in Nationwide (never for basketball, though), it seems like those lower bowl seats would be at least as intimate as the seats at Salem. And seating location and options are Salem would really be my only gripe against the place—otherwise I've enjoyed both of my trips there.*
(*well, at least as much as I can for my rooting interest's 1-3 Salem record) :(
My guess is that the real limitation against using an arena like Nationwide is the rental/usage cost. (I assume DIII pays for the ability to use its championship venue?)
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 17, 2010, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 17, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
After the run at Salem how about the newly renovated Battelle Grand in Columbus, OH. Close to the arena district, lots of hotel space a new hotel coming 2012 and formerly hosted the NCAA DI Mid American Conference conference tournament. More intimate than St. John's. Cool looking building (not real important, I know). Good airport access, Ohio Athletic Conference as a host conference. Great college sports town.
Have you seen the attendance figures for Cap or Ott, or seen their coverage in the Columbus paper? It is an Ohio State town (if that even counts as college sports)! :D
This is an understatement to say the least.
I just remember last year for Wooster's NCAA Tournament game at Cap and there may very well have been more Wooster fans in attendance than Cap fans! And that was with no Wooster students making the trip as they were on spring break and if it wasn't for the fact that Cap students weren't on spring break, there definitely would have been about a 2-1 ratio of Wooster fans to Cap fans.
I can understand your fanbase maybe not coming out in force for regular season games, but to be outdrawn by fans of a school 90 minutes away for an NCAA Tournament game is pretty pathetic if you ask me...
Wooster has fan support that many DIII programs can only dream about. Imagine how many Wooster fans would come to a final four game in Columbus. Heck, I live in a town with a DIII school, with another about 12 miles away. The paper that serves the area doesn't do either of those programs justice and they are almost the only shows in town. There is one NAIA II school and one ORCC school who also don't merit much coverage. High school sports are the name of the game for local media. The Dispatch would cover a DIII Final Four very well, regardless of how they cover Cap, Ott, OWU, or NAIA/NCAA II ODU, etc. during the season.
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 18, 2010, 01:53:26 PM
Wooster has fan support that many DIII programs can only dream about. Imagine how many Wooster fans would come to a final four game in Columbus. Heck, I live in a town with a DIII school, with another about 12 miles away. The paper that serves the area doesn't do either of those programs justice and they are almost the only shows in town. There is one NAIA II school and one ORCC school who also don't merit much coverage. High school sports are the name of the game for local media. The Dispatch would cover a DIII Final Four very well, regardless of how they cover Cap, Ott, OWU, or NAIA/NCAA II ODU, etc. during the season.
Wooster's local paper isn't on my must read list everyday, but I will say this. They do a fairly good job of covering the COW and it's not just limited to football, basketball and baseball. Although, those 3 sports get the majority of coverage, they also give coverage to minor sports as well. I'm sure this factors in Wooster's large and loyal local fanbase. That and owning the best win percentage in ALL of college basketball in the 2000's doesn't hurt either. ;D
Now, if only the Scots could add one of those nice walnut and bronze trophies to their trophy case... 8-)
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 18, 2010, 02:36:43 PM
Quote from: WashU33Fan on February 18, 2010, 01:53:26 PM
Wooster has fan support that many DIII programs can only dream about. Imagine how many Wooster fans would come to a final four game in Columbus. Heck, I live in a town with a DIII school, with another about 12 miles away. The paper that serves the area doesn't do either of those programs justice and they are almost the only shows in town. There is one NAIA II school and one ORCC school who also don't merit much coverage. High school sports are the name of the game for local media. The Dispatch would cover a DIII Final Four very well, regardless of how they cover Cap, Ott, OWU, or NAIA/NCAA II ODU, etc. during the season.
Wooster's local paper isn't on my must read list everyday, but I will say this. They do a fairly good job of covering the COW and it's not just limited to football, basketball and baseball. Although, those 3 sports get the majority of coverage, they also give coverage to minor sports as well. I'm sure this factors in Wooster's large and loyal local fanbase. That and owning the best win percentage in ALL of college basketball in the 2000's doesn't hurt either. ;D
Now, if only the Scots could add one of those nice walnut and bronze trophies to their trophy case... 8-)
After this season I'll be back to just rooting for the Bluffton U Beavers. They are about as far away from walnut and bronze as you get. Regardless of how the Wash U ride ends this year it has been a fun four years. It was great that even friends and family were able to hoist the trophies with the players as a part of the celebration.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Hard to say, but remember that Calvin
did host the D3 men's basketball Final Four throughout a good chunk of the 1980s.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Hard to say, but remember that Calvin did host the D3 men's basketball Final Four throughout a good chunk of the 1980s.
Which reemphasizes the point - they don't have experienced support over there. Hosting in the 1980's would be completely different than hosting it now.
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Hard to say, but remember that Calvin did host the D3 men's basketball Final Four throughout a good chunk of the 1980s.
Which reemphasizes the point - they don't have experienced support over there. Hosting in the 1980's would be completely different than hosting it now.
Why?
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 10:32:54 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
Which reemphasizes the point - they don't have experienced support over there. Hosting in the 1980's would be completely different than hosting it now.
Why?
Probably no Potsdam State or North Park; Russians are our allies now (sorta); women have smaller hairstyles;
Joanie Loves Chachi off the air...need I go on?
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Really? "Experienced support?" That's the argument? The good people in Salem figured it out in short order; I suspect Grand Rapidians could do the same.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 18, 2010, 10:58:52 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Really? "Experienced support?" That's the argument? The good people in Salem figured it out in short order; I suspect Grand Rapidians could do the same.
I know it's not the Final Four, but Calvin is used to big games and big events. Last year's MIAA tournament final drew 4,100 to the Van Noord Arena, and they're used to at least one game a year with 4,500+ fans and media members for the annual rivalry game with Hope.
I know there's more to the Final Four than just bigger crowds, but Calvin does have experience in that department.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 18, 2010, 11:24:49 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 18, 2010, 10:58:52 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Really? "Experienced support?" That's the argument? The good people in Salem figured it out in short order; I suspect Grand Rapidians could do the same.
I know it's not the Final Four, but Calvin is used to big games and big events. Last year's MIAA tournament final drew 4,100 to the Van Noord Arena, and they're used to at least one game a year with 4,500+ fans and media members for the annual rivalry game with Hope.
I know there's more to the Final Four than just bigger crowds, but Calvin does have experience in that department.
It's bigger than the Final Four? ;)
In all seriousness, if I were given my choice between sweeping Calvin and not winning the NCAA Tournament, or being swept by Calvin and winning the NCAA Tournament, that would be a tough call. In truth, I'd probably opt for the former.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 19, 2010, 10:58:24 AM
In all seriousness, if I were given my choice between sweeping Calvin and not winning the NCAA Tournament, or being swept by Calvin and winning the NCAA Tournament, that would be a tough call. In truth, I'd probably opt for the former.
OK, OK, I have to ask, when you say in all seriousness, you are being serious right? Do you think a lot of other Hope fans would agree?
I love rivalries. And, I have been following the Missouri/Kansas rivalry my entire life, one of the oldest rivalries in Division I, and while taking down Kansas is the biggest thing, in part because we know we will not win the national title, I would have to think that most Mizzou fans would prefer the national title.
I have to admit that it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but I've given up trying to make sense of the emotion around Wabash-DePauw football or Hope-Calvin basketball.
I will tell you flat out -- I have no idea whether Catholic split with Goucher or swept them in 2001. All I remember is that we have a banner hanging in the DuFour Center and a Walnut and Bronze in the trophy case.
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
I should add that the +4500 plus for a small school rivalry game blows my mind.
It is easy to keep a rivalry going when you graduate +4500 fans each year like Missouri and Kansas, but for two very small schools, it is impressive to say the least.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 12:04:39 PM
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
Ugly Dutchmen? Ouch! >:( Although as I recall VanNoord is rather Dutch, haha.
I agree with KnightSlappy in that I would happily lose to Calvin if it meant winning the NCAA Championship (although I would prefer both!).
While I wouldn't want to dare dive to deeply into the mind of HopeConvert. I might hypothesize the reason he may pick a different option is revealed in his name.
Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on February 19, 2010, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 12:04:39 PM
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
Ugly Dutchmen? Ouch! >:( Although as I recall VanNoord is rather Dutch, haha.
I agree with KnightSlappy in that I would happily lose to Calvin if it meant winning the NCAA Championship (although I would prefer both!).
While I wouldn't want to dare dive to deeply into the mind of HopeConvert. I might hypothesize the reason he may pick a different option is revealed in his name.
I meant it more in nickname, not heritage. As you point out, Calvin's every bit as dutch (heritage) as Hope is.
Quote from: WUH on February 19, 2010, 12:46:12 PM
I should add that the +4500 plus for a small school rivalry game blows my mind.
It is easy to keep a rivalry going when you graduate +4500 fans each year like Missouri and Kansas, but for two very small schools, it is impressive to say the least.
The January 29, 1997 game at Van Andel Arena in downtown Grand Rapids, a 70-56 Hope triumph, established an NCAA Division III single game attendance record with a capacity crowd of 11,442.
I am being serious. Given that it is unlikely that the elation one experiences upon one's team winning a national championship would be qualitatively superior to the elation I experience when Hope beats Calvin, why wouldn't I opt for two or three of those experiences a year versus one?
Now, a double-predestinarian naysayer might say that I am embracing my fate given that my team hasn't won a National Championship (although I should point out that, as an enthusiastic alumnus of Catholic University I do take great pride in 2001), but I have seen my team lose in the semifinals to the eventual champ, WashU, and I can say definitively that did not put me in as deep a funk as losing to Calvin does. Mutatis mutandis, the victory is unlikely to be sweeter.
I do not presume I am speaking for all Hope fans.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on February 19, 2010, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 12:04:39 PM
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
Ugly Dutchmen? Ouch! >:( Although as I recall VanNoord is rather Dutch, haha.
I agree with KnightSlappy in that I would happily lose to Calvin if it meant winning the NCAA Championship (although I would prefer both!).
While I wouldn't want to dare dive to deeply into the mind of HopeConvert. I might hypothesize the reason he may pick a different option is revealed in his name.
I meant it more in nickname, not heritage. As you point out, Calvin's every bit as dutch (heritage) as Hope is.
A good friend of mine, a member of Calvin's faculty, is amazed every time we go to a game together that Calvin has been "out-Dutched."
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 19, 2010, 10:58:24 AM
In all seriousness, if I were given my choice between sweeping Calvin and not winning the NCAA Tournament, or being swept by Calvin and winning the NCAA Tournament, that would be a tough call. In truth, I'd probably opt for the former.
I can't believe that would even be a tough call??? Especially considering how much you Hope fans hate hearing the, "Where's your Banner" chant from Calvin?! :P
Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on February 19, 2010, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 12:04:39 PM
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
Ugly Dutchmen? Ouch! >:( Although as I recall VanNoord is rather Dutch, haha.
I agree with KnightSlappy in that I would happily lose to Calvin if it meant winning the NCAA Championship (although I would prefer both!).
While I wouldn't want to dare dive to deeply into the mind of HopeConvert. I might hypothesize the reason he may pick a different option is revealed in his name.
Year after year? I don't believe that.
On the subject of attendance.........last year's D3 tournament average of 1,204 was the lowest of 33 D3 tournaments held.
Avg reported attendance at all D3 games was 434
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 19, 2010, 02:22:56 PM
I am being serious. Given that it is unlikely that the elation one experiences upon one's team winning a national championship would be qualitatively superior to the elation I experience when Hope beats Calvin, why wouldn't I opt for two or three of those experiences a year versus one?
Now, a double-predestinarian naysayer might say that I am embracing my fate given that my team hasn't won a National Championship (although I should point out that, as an enthusiastic alumnus of Catholic University I do take great pride in 2001), but I have seen my team lose in the semifinals to the eventual champ, WashU, and I can say definitively that did not put me in as deep a funk as losing to Calvin does. Mutatis mutandis, the victory is unlikely to be sweeter.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I understand your point, though I cannot fully relate. Washington University has quasi-rivals, especially if we play a team enough times, like with the UAA teams in general and Chicago in particular.
A few years ago, a student group was formed to promote a rivalry with Emory University. And, this was roughly around the time a rogue group of Emory students spray painted a number of anti-Washington University slogans around campus, including
WUSTL girls are ugly. More likely than not, the slogans were actually painted by WUSTL students, but who knows.
The group, and the notion of a rivalry are long gone.
_____
I cannot even wrap my mind around the idea that 11,442 fans would show for a Division III basketball game. I am not doubting the figure, but it seems so impossible. All I can say is Wow!
Quote from: WUH on February 19, 2010, 05:02:13 PM
I cannot even wrap my mind around the idea that 11,442 fans would show for a Division III basketball game. I am not doubting the figure, but it seems so impossible.
Oh, it's possible. The fans are out there. Let's give the people a big event to get excited about even if their squad doesn't make it.
We're not going to increase attendance holding the tournament in Salem. Let's prepare for success (http://www.hulu.com/watch/12939/field-of-dreams-if-you-build-it-he-will-come), and put it in a big, impressive venue, near a major airport.
Quote from: AO on February 19, 2010, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: WUH on February 19, 2010, 05:02:13 PM
I cannot even wrap my mind around the idea that 11,442 fans would show for a Division III basketball game. I am not doubting the figure, but it seems so impossible.
Oh, it's possible. The fans are out there. Let's give the people a big event to get excited about even if their squad doesn't make it.
We're not going to increase attendance holding the tournament in Salem. Let's prepare for success (http://www.hulu.com/watch/12939/field-of-dreams-if-you-build-it-he-will-come), and put it in a big, impressive venue, near a major airport.
You can do like the NAIA does and just guarantee two schools from the host conference get in every year. Of course they have a bigger tournament than just four teams, but the principle usually helps them break even for the week.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 19, 2010, 02:24:27 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: ChicagoHopeNut on February 19, 2010, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 12:04:39 PM
I think many Hope fans force themselves to believe a similar sentiment. It's like a coping mechanism or something.
I would most certainly rather get our tails whipped twice by the ugly Dutchmen and then rebound to win the NCAA Championship if given the choice to do so. I'd pick this every year.
Ugly Dutchmen? Ouch! >:( Although as I recall VanNoord is rather Dutch, haha.
I agree with KnightSlappy in that I would happily lose to Calvin if it meant winning the NCAA Championship (although I would prefer both!).
While I wouldn't want to dare dive to deeply into the mind of HopeConvert. I might hypothesize the reason he may pick a different option is revealed in his name.
I meant it more in nickname, not heritage. As you point out, Calvin's every bit as dutch (heritage) as Hope is.
A good friend of mine, a member of Calvin's faculty, is amazed every time we go to a game together that Calvin has been "out-Dutched."
I somehow doubt that many Augustana fans know or care that North Park "out-Swedishes" their school*. And I know for certain that NPU basketball fans find not one atom of consolation in that fact when our version of Vikings gets swept by the Rock Island version of Vikings, as was the case this season.
* Both schools have Scandinavian Studies centers on campus, and both offer Swedish-language classes and Scandinavian Studies majors; NPU, however, has had actual Swedes play for the team -- including one this year -- and NPU also, unlike Augie, uses the colors of the Swedish flag as its school colors. For some unknown reason, Augie eschewed royal blue in favor of navy blue.
Quote from: AO on February 19, 2010, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: WUH on February 19, 2010, 05:02:13 PM
I cannot even wrap my mind around the idea that 11,442 fans would show for a Division III basketball game. I am not doubting the figure, but it seems so impossible.
Oh, it's possible. The fans are out there. Let's give the people a big event to get excited about even if their squad doesn't make it.
We're not going to increase attendance holding the tournament in Salem. Let's prepare for success (http://www.hulu.com/watch/12939/field-of-dreams-if-you-build-it-he-will-come), and put it in a big, impressive venue, near a major airport.
As I posted a week or so ago, I think the biggest crowd possible at a neutral-site D3 Final Four - if all the stars aligned just right - is about 5500. I don't want a venue with more basketball seating than about 7000.
I've used this facility as an example before, but Bloomington, IL's U.S. Cellular Colliseum really would be the perfect type building...
http://www.uscellularcoliseum.com/facility/gallery/index.html?c=1&id=7&t=9
(I don't think Bloomington, IL solves all of our location issues though.)
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
I was talking with ziggy the other day, and he also mentioned that the EMU Convocation Center could be a good venue. It hosted one game of the WNBA finals a few years ago. But as you point out, SE Michigan is not a local hotbed for D3 sports (although Adrian College is 37 miles away so there may be some supporters nearby).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convocation_Center_%28Eastern_Michigan_University%29
It was also the location of my High School commencement ceremony. :)
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 08:39:06 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
I was talking with ziggy the other day, and he also mentioned that the EMU Convocation Center could be a good venue. It hosted one game of the WNBA finals a few years ago. But as you point out, SE Michigan is not a local hotbed for D3 sports (although Adrian College is 37 miles away so there may be some supporters nearby).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convocation_Center_%28Eastern_Michigan_University%29
It was also the location of my High School commencement ceremony. :)
OMG - did you graduate from YHS or Lincoln (or does someone else also use the facility)?
And, yeah, the extent of my MIAA bball experience is Adrian. (I used to go to all the Hope@Adrian games, but missed this year - I coulda given sac and FDF a hard time! :D).
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on February 19, 2010, 08:39:06 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
I was talking with ziggy the other day, and he also mentioned that the EMU Convocation Center could be a good venue. It hosted one game of the WNBA finals a few years ago. But as you point out, SE Michigan is not a local hotbed for D3 sports (although Adrian College is 37 miles away so there may be some supporters nearby).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convocation_Center_%28Eastern_Michigan_University%29
It was also the location of my High School commencement ceremony. :)
OMG - did you graduate from YHS or Lincoln (or does someone else also use the facility)?
And, yeah, the extent of my MIAA bball experience is Adrian. (I used to go to all the Hope@Adrian games, but missed this year - I coulda given sac and FDF a hard time! :D).
Canton, actually. The Plymouth-Canton schools use (or perhaps used) it for their ceremonies.
Even if the upper level was sparsely populated, it may not feel too big if the lower bowl was full. Probably little to no local "walk up" fans here though.
Salem and the ODAC has hosting NCAA Championships down to a science. There's a reason why they have hosted 48 NCAA Championships since 1993 (including the stagg bowl and final four for this year) and are the annual hosts for the Stagg Bowl and the Men's Final Four along with having hosted NCAA Championships in baseball, softball, and women's lacrosse in past years. Let me know when Calvin is able to bring that resume to the table.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
Biggest negative --- Its in Ypsilanti
Biggest positive --- the basketball played in the D3 final four at the EMU Convocation Center would be better than the current D1 product. ;D
Quote from: therock on February 19, 2010, 09:57:26 PM
Salem and the ODAC has hosting NCAA Championships down to a science. There's a reason why they have hosted 48 NCAA Championships since 1993 (including the stagg bowl and final four for this year) and are the annual hosts for the Stagg Bowl and the Men's Final Four along with having hosted NCAA Championships in baseball, softball, and women's lacrosse in past years. Let me know when Calvin is able to bring that resume to the table.
Yes, but you still haven't answered my question from yesterday.
Quote from: sac on February 19, 2010, 10:12:34 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
Biggest negative --- Its in Ypsilanti
Biggest positive --- the basketball played in the D3 final four at the EMU Convocation Center would be better than the current D1 product. ;D
Now that was just mean! >:(
Not necessarily inaccurate, but mean. :(
[I'd take EMU over Hope in either men's or women's (fortunately, EMU's women's team is also the better team ;)), though it might be closer than d1 vs. d3 oughta be. :P)
And we do have
some motels that rent by the day rather than the hour. :o
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 10:32:54 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Hard to say, but remember that Calvin did host the D3 men's basketball Final Four throughout a good chunk of the 1980s.
Which reemphasizes the point - they don't have experienced support over there. Hosting in the 1980's would be completely different than hosting it now.
Why?
I think the standards have been raised significantly. The D-III Final Four is no longer an on-campus event, the way it was the last time Calvin hosted it. Not to say someone else can't do it, but I don't think the NCAA takes this event back on campus.
Quote from: therock on February 19, 2010, 09:57:26 PM
Salem and the ODAC has hosting NCAA Championships down to a science. There's a reason why they have hosted 48 NCAA Championships since 1993 (including the stagg bowl and final four for this year) and are the annual hosts for the Stagg Bowl and the Men's Final Four along with having hosted NCAA Championships in baseball, softball, and women's lacrosse in past years. Let me know when Calvin is able to bring that resume to the table.
Oh, well, a science. There is no competing with a science.
Look, this isn't the Normandy invasion. Not to say the good folks in Salem don't do a fine job, but I am confident that people in other places could pull this off.
I don't often see "NCAA' and "reason" in the same sentence.
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 19, 2010, 07:26:38 PM
Eastern Michigan U's Convocation Center ("The House That Earl [Boykins] Built") holds 8,000. Rather a bit north of center, but just about perfect east-west. ;) And near infinite parking!
And we are 15 minutes from Detroit Metropolitan Airport, which just won the ranking of #1 in customer service! :D
And I'd personally greet each and every one of you to Ypsi(lanti). ;D
(Downside: I may be the only person within twenty miles who knows that D3 exists! :()
I would go to the final four every year if it was held at EMU. Someone go ahead and let the NCAA know that they have a guaranteed attendance of at least 1.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 20, 2010, 07:49:24 AM
Quote from: therock on February 19, 2010, 09:57:26 PM
Salem and the ODAC has hosting NCAA Championships down to a science. There's a reason why they have hosted 48 NCAA Championships since 1993 (including the stagg bowl and final four for this year) and are the annual hosts for the Stagg Bowl and the Men's Final Four along with having hosted NCAA Championships in baseball, softball, and women's lacrosse in past years. Let me know when Calvin is able to bring that resume to the table.
Look, this isn't the Normandy invasion. Not to say the good folks in Salem don't do a fine job, but I am confident that people in other places could pull this off.
I agree...the D3 Final Four could be pulled off in a lot of places. You just need good people who are very passionate and very committed to the job. It might take a couple years for a new location to do as good of a job as the Salem team (which is outstanding, by the way), but it could be done.
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 20, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
Maybe there's more first rate hospitality behind the scenes but the only hospitality I witnessed was "that'll be $5.00 for your pop and hotdog, and your seat is up 3 rows over yonder."
Hosting a big event like this is not rocket science, yes it takes alot of hard work and dedication but any location thats willing to put the effort in to host already knows that and wouldn't have received the bid if the NCAA didn't think they could pull it off.
The women's final four moves around every 2 years now, and as far as I can tell without a hitch.
Quote from: sac on February 20, 2010, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 20, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
Maybe there's more first rate hospitality behind the scenes but the only hospitality I witnessed was "that'll be $5.00 for your pop and hot dog, and your seat is up 3 rows over yonder."
Hosting a big event like this is not rocket science, yes it takes a lot of hard work and dedication but any location that's willing to put the effort in to host already knows that and wouldn't have received the bid if the NCAA didn't think they could pull it off.
The women's final four moves around every 2 years now, and as far as I can tell without a hitch.
Definitely more hospitality behind the scenes than most fans imagine. Some Examples (in most cases below for the length of the site contract:
- Commitment from a conference and/or a facing NCAA member school to be the site "host" even if no participants from conference or school;
- Commitment from hotels to provide room blocks, conference rooms and tournament rates - for teams and fans; and, for most lodging locations - fans only knowing a good % fans will bail if team loses;
- Budget support from towns, counties and state for police, fire and DOT
- Community - willing to be invaded by 2,500+ (mostly very thirsty) out of town fans and college kids
- Service Organization(s) and Volunteers - with prior, and successful, big event experience
All the above knowing the NCAA, other than the actual tournament, is not going to plan or manage anything
but will continually grade, assess and criticize your performance throughout the process.
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 20, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
I don't think that is what anyone is necessarily saying. It's more that, even here on a board dedicated to the topic of Final Four site selection, with contributions from a bunch of passionate Division III fans, no one has really identified a better overall option than Salem yet as I see it. (Calvin is the best suggestion I've seen, but personally, I'd rather have some type of neutral, off-campus facility.) And even if we identify a perfect location/venue somewhere else, what are the odds the people involved with that facility actually want to host the D3 Final Four? I mean, let's not kid ourselves - the 2-day event is never going to be a big money-maker.
As much as I think the geographic location of Salem stinks (from a getting there standpoint), and that this prevents both neutral fans and fans of the 4 participants from attending each year, the fact is 1) Salem
wants the D3 Final Four, and 2) they've done a good job hosting the event for 14 years now. It's "theirs to lose" and I don't see anyone close to taking it away right now.
Quote from: iwumichigander on February 20, 2010, 12:53:28 PM
- Community - willing to be invaded by 5,000+ (mostly very thirsty) out of town fans and college kids
If there were 5000+ coming in, I'm not sure we'd be talking about this quite as much. The last few Final Fours have drawn less than 2500 per game on average I believe.
Quote from: Titan Q on February 20, 2010, 12:59:46 PM
Quote from: iwumichigander on February 20, 2010, 12:53:28 PM
- Community - willing to be invaded by 5,000+ (mostly very thirsty) out of town fans and college kids
If there were 5000+ coming in, I'm not sure we'd be talking about this quite as much. The last few Final Fours have drawn less than 2500 per game on average I believe.
Thanks! I fixed it my original post.
And other hospitality aspects are extended to the teams themselves. Each team is assigned a host family who helps take care of the behind-the-scenes logistics. Many returning schools get quite attached to their host families and request them again in future years.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 20, 2010, 01:49:42 PM
And other hospitality aspects are extended to the teams themselves. Each team is assigned a host family who helps take care of the behind-the-scenes logistics. Many returning schools get quite attached to their host families and request them again in future years.
Good point Pat! I met two of the host families on IWU's last trip to Salem. Really nice folks. And, not just 'show up and be noticed folks either'; worked their fannies off the entire tournament extending themselves not only to the team - players, coaches & support staff - but to the families & fans, too. The one host family were multi-year, repeat volunteers whose experience enable them to almost anticipate a need before it came up.
I watched one pair of team hosts - not once but twice - go out to their car, pull out a duffel bag, search through it and walk back in with the item, or information needed. And, the second time it was not even for the team they were assigned to!
I later learned this family made a list after each year, adding items to the current year's experience to the prior years to be better prepared for the next year!
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 20, 2010, 01:49:42 PM
And other hospitality aspects are extended to the teams themselves. Each team is assigned a host family who helps take care of the behind-the-scenes logistics. Many returning schools get quite attached to their host families and request them again in future years.
I'll also add those host families get attached to the teams as well and request the team again in future years, too.
It's not even so much finding a place to go, it's finding a place that can get all the interested and necessary parties together on a bid that ends up being better than the bid Salem puts together every year.
It's just not that common.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 20, 2010, 12:30:58 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 10:32:54 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 18, 2010, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: therock on February 18, 2010, 07:53:14 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 17, 2010, 05:01:21 PM
I have only been to Salem once, and when I went I never investigated Roanoke, so I am willing to recant my earlier judgment about places to dine and sleep. Clearly I made the judgment without sufficient information and have since been appropriately corrected. And I did like Mac N Bob's, and the people in the area were very friendly.
That said, I stand by my judgments concerning the Civic Center itself and Salem's inaccessibility. Bob, I'm curious as to why you say you don't have any solutions for the centrality and accessibility issue and why we have to just suck it up and accept Salem. It seems to me that Calvin is a perfect solution. It's centrally located, big enough to hold any number of fans who would want to come, but intimate enough for a smaller crowd, very near a large airport, has a fan base that would show up even if local teams weren't in the game (I know I would go no matter who was playing), has excellent facilities, has a large number of hotels and restaurants within a 5 minute drive - I just don't see the downside. I'm not saying it's the only place possible, but it's hard for me to imagine a better one and I can't see why posters on this board aren't jumping at it.
If you're worried about Calvin potentially having a homecourt advantage, no need to worry as I don't see them representing the MIAA any time soon. ;) ;D ;)
Downside = experienced support. I highly doubt Calvin will be able to compete with the level of experienced support (and free man hours at that in the case for many of those folks) offered by the ODAC schools, the ODAC office, and the Rotary Club. How many people in and around Calvin have the multiple years of experience supporting a final four that is as big as the men's basketball Final Four?
Hard to say, but remember that Calvin did host the D3 men's basketball Final Four throughout a good chunk of the 1980s.
Which reemphasizes the point - they don't have experienced support over there. Hosting in the 1980's would be completely different than hosting it now.
Why?
I think the standards have been raised significantly. The D-III Final Four is no longer an on-campus event, the way it was the last time Calvin hosted it. Not to say someone else can't do it, but I don't think the NCAA takes this event back on campus.
Ding ding ding!
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 20, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
The Division III mission statement is focused on the experience of the STUDENT ATHLETE, not the fan. The focus on fan experience is for the D1 folks and the D2s to a lesser degree. Student Athlete comes first and foremost, anyone else after that.
Quote from: therock on February 20, 2010, 05:25:38 PM
Quote from: ScotsFan on February 20, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
So I guess what we're saying is that hospitality trumps a location that isn't easily accessible by most causing attendance to suffer? :-\
The Division III mission statement is focused on the experience of the STUDENT ATHLETE, not the fan. The focus on fan experience is for the D1 folks and the D2s to a lesser degree. Student Athlete comes first and foremost, anyone else after that.
Ask any student athlete and they'd tell you they want to play in front of a big crowd. They want family, friends and fans to be able to make it to the game. From my experience with the NAIA and NCCAA national tournament, I can tell you Salem does not hold a monopoly on very helpful volunteers and hosts.
AO - your comparision is NAIA and D1 for volunteers and such... and you are probably very right on that... but D3 wise... the womens' tournaments probably prove that finding a dedicated staff and volunteers is not as easy as you think.
I find it interesting to put this discussion in the context of the projected tournament field geography (Bracketology link in sig). I understand that there is no reason to require that the final four site be centrally located but I can see why Columbus came up as a good location. Based on the map of projected participants, Pittsburgh may be another location that warrants consideration.
How about the Canton Civic Center (http://www.cantonciviccenter.com/)? Right size (seats 5,200), and it's right in the geographical sweet spot.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 22, 2010, 04:32:17 PM
How about the Canton Civic Center (http://www.cantonciviccenter.com/)? Right size (seats 5,200), and it's right in the geographical sweet spot.
It looks like a small dumpy version of the Salem Civic Center
Pittsburgh - is the old Pitt Field House still standing - ahhh the days of Brian Geneolovich and Billy Knight at Pitt and a bundle of WPIAL playoff games - would be wonderful for D3.....
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 22, 2010, 04:32:17 PM
How about the Canton Civic Center (http://www.cantonciviccenter.com/)? Right size (seats 5,200), and it's right in the geographical sweet spot.
I saw LeBron James play a game there when he was in high school. Not a great venue and kind of dumpy. Not a bad location though, even if there aren't any DIII schools in Canton. Wooster would be closest. Canton/Akron airport about 15 minutes away.
I think I'll just post this every other day or so, but it really doesn't matter if we find the perfect venue in the perfect location - they still have to put together a winning bid. A lot of different constituencies have to be on board to make this work. It just seems unlikely that there would be such a convergence in a location that is also perfect or nearly so, geographically.
Quote from: HopeConvert on February 22, 2010, 08:15:01 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 22, 2010, 04:32:17 PM
How about the Canton Civic Center (http://www.cantonciviccenter.com/)? Right size (seats 5,200), and it's right in the geographical sweet spot.
I saw LeBron James play a game there when he was in high school. Not a great venue and kind of dumpy. Not a bad location though, even if there aren't any DIII schools in Canton. Wooster would be closest. Canton/Akron airport about 15 minutes away.
Actually Mt. Union in Alliance is closer by 13 miles. ;)
That's right. I forgot all about them - this not being the football board. ;)
Quote from: ziggy on February 22, 2010, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 22, 2010, 04:32:17 PM
How about the Canton Civic Center (http://www.cantonciviccenter.com/)? Right size (seats 5,200), and it's right in the geographical sweet spot.
It looks like a small dumpy version of the Salem Civic Center
This is why I never really considered the Canton Civic Center as a viable option. It really is nothing special as far as a venue goes. Dumpy is a pretty good description and I would say Calvin's arena blows the CCC out of the water IMO. Location is really the only thing the CCC has going for it.
The Battelle Grand (Columbus (OH) Convention Center) is only 8 or 9 miles from the Columbus, OH Airport (CMH). The NCAC, OAC, HCAC and the AMCC all have a team or teams from Ohio.
Just wanted to update the board and put it on the first page. Obviously we have awhile before we see Williams, Guilford, Washington U and William Paterson in the Final Four this year! ??? ::) :P
Quote from: Old School.... (Tom Doebler) on March 03, 2010, 02:56:59 AM
Just wanted to update the board and put it on the first page. Obviously we have awhile before we see Williams, Guilford, Washington U and William Paterson in the Final Four this year!
Hey, stop stealing my picks.
I had half right.
Williams v Guilford
Stevens Point v Randolph-Macon
I had three out of four - missed in William Patterson (though, I had RMC losing to William Patterson, so nearly got it completely right).
I would have had all four has F&M and EMU pulled through, dang. I guess my bias helped a bit (Williams, although that was an easy pick out of that sectional) and hurt a bit (McNally, F&M's star, is a fellow alum of my high school). I am wondering if, as I predicted, Williams beats WSP in the final, I'll take the pick 'em title, or if others have the same outcome who are currently ahead of me in the pool ...
pretty amazing run for the ODAC of late from 06-10, five final fours from three different teams, and one title (so far) ... EMU could easily make it four teams next year!
Now the pressure is on...
I have all four teams picked correctly and am tied for first in the men's pick'em. I have Guilford over Stevens Point in the finals and a total score of 131 points.
Of interest, these two teams have eliminated UT-Dallas from the tourney in the last 2 seasons.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2010, 03:28:25 PM
Now the pressure is on...
I have all four teams picked correctly and am tied for first in the men's pick'em. I have Guilford over Stevens Point in the finals and a total score of 131 points.
Of interest, these two teams have eliminated UT-Dallas from the tourney in the last 2 seasons.
dang, there goes my chance at a comeback...
I also have Guilford over UWSP in the championship. Got Williams right, RMC wrong, went with Virginia Wesleyan instead (oops!)
So...the men's Final on Saturday is at 1 pm, correct? When is this so-called All-Star game being played? 10 in the morning?
Also, a friend called over to get tickets and it's $25 for 3 games. Two semis and the final, I presume. Is it extra for the all-star game? Does anyone know the situation regarding the all-star game? Time? Cost? etc...
edit: All-Star game is at 10:30 am
NCAA DIII tourney information link (http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-baskbl/champpage/m-baskbl-div3-index.html)
Salem Civic Center: Go to "Events Listings (http://www.salemciviccenter.com/)
D3 tourney history of the 2010 Final Four participants| team | apps | first app | E8s | F4s | titles | W-L (.pct) |
| Williams | 11 | 1994 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 29-9 (.763) |
| Guilford | 4 | 2007 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 11-3 (.786) |
| UW-Stevens Point | 9 | 1997 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 23-6 (.793) |
| Randolph-Macon | 10 | 1990 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 9-9 (.500) |
So in planning out my driving route to Salem today I checked with several map engines online and found several different interpretations of the distance and time needed to get there. The NCAA mileage calculator lists UWSP to Roanoke as 938 miles, here's what the mapping engines suggested routes came up with. All of them show driving the route around Chicago as the best, but having done that before I know from the experience that there is always an hour delay if you drive it at any time other than the dead of night. I drive down to Bloomington and then to Indy and that's where the engines differ. Some route via my fave I74-US35-I64-I77-WV460-I81 (#1), others I65-I64-I77-US460-I81 (#2) and still a third preferred route of I65-I64-I75-I81 (#3). One, Maps.com, sent me on the northern route via I80-I77 and said I could make the 1002 miles in 13-1/2 hrs (average speed at that pace is 74.45).
Here's what the 4 "biggie" search engines put the routes as:
#1
| Google | 900mi | 15h42m | 57.32mph |
| Yahoo | 938mi | 15h40m | 59.86mph |
| Bing | 907mi | 14h2m | 64.78mph |
| Mapquest | 934mi | 15h31m | 60.26mph |
#2
| Google | 955mi | 15h59m | 59.69mph |
| Yahoo | 957mi | 15h5m | 63.46mph |
| Bing | 960mi | 14h20m | 66.99mph |
| Mapquest | 956mi | 15h35m | 61.68mph |
#3
| Google | 1037mi | 16h35m | 62.54mph |
| Yahoo | 1034mi | 16h7m | 64.14mph |
| Bing | 1047mi | 15h5m | 69.43mph |
| Mapquest | 1035mi | 16h41m | 62.05mph |
So obviously I should choose the Google mileage from route #1 and the Bing speed from route #3 and get there in less than 13 hours. ;D
FYI - for those coming from New England and planning to drive... email me as I will give you some good suggestions to either miss New Jersey headaches... or those in the Baltimore/DC area as well. A version I read from Williamtown to Salem does include NJ (which is nuts) but misses the Baltimore/DC area (smart).
Quote from: frodotwo on March 15, 2010, 03:25:44 PM
All of them show driving the route around Chicago as the best, but having done that before I know from the experience that there is always an hour delay if you drive it at any time other than the dead of night. I drive down to Bloomington and then to Indy and that's where the engines differ.
Without question - Stevens Point, WI to Bloomington, IL (about 4 hours), then to Indy (about 2 1/2 from Bloomington) is your first step.
I've driven from Bloomington, IL to Salem, VA 3 times (always heading to Indy first). We tried 3 different routes on those trips, but seems like it always took about 11 hours regardless. 15 hours from Stevens Point sounds right.
After flying several times now, it's hard to talk myself into ever driving it again. From O'Hare to Roanoke airport is a quick little 1:15 flight (from Stevens Point you could just zip down from CWA to O'Hare). The problem, of course, is that with 5 days notice, it's completely unaffordable to fly. CWA to ROA through Chicago would be over $800 now.
That's the real tough thing about the Salem location for a lot of the country. It's only affordable to fly if you book 3+ months in advance, and the drive is pretty rough.
For cheap last minute air travel try www.lastminute.com. I don't work for them or own stock but used this to go to Salem one year and it was the only way possible at the time.
Is it just me or does anyone think this is an excellent Final Four........every year there seems to be one team that everyone wonders if they really belong there. This year I don't think you can say that at all.
Quote from: sac on March 15, 2010, 10:23:19 PM
Is it just me or does anyone think this is an excellent Final Four........every year there seems to be one team that everyone wonders if they really belong there. This year I don't think you can say that at all.
Yeah, I already noted that on a board I can't seem to find! There is usually always a dog (and last year, of course, there were three of them, since ANYONE coming out of the Bracket of Death would have easily won the title). This year we've got the 2 'home teams' (from among the ODAC 'Big Four' - both of whom have been here for more than the ODAC tourney), plus two recent national champs - nary a canine in THIS group! ;)
[2006 was an exception - I believe all 4 games were decided by 3 or fewer points.]
While I realize many posters (and coaches) hated the 3rd place game as anti-climactic, I personally will miss it. Since 2nd and 3rd is often a matter of scheduling, rather than playing, how are we to tell which team is 2nd? ::) (Besides, IWU was 3-0 in 3rd place games! ;D)
Quote from: ziggy on March 15, 2010, 10:05:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2010, 03:28:25 PM
Now the pressure is on...
I have all four teams picked correctly and am tied for first in the men's pick'em. I have Guilford over Stevens Point in the finals and a total score of 131 points.
Of interest, these two teams have eliminated UT-Dallas from the tourney in the last 2 seasons.
dang, there goes my chance at a comeback...
I also have Guilford over UWSP in the championship. Got Williams right, RMC wrong, went with Virginia Wesleyan instead (oops!)
Identical to my situation! I too have Guilford over UWSP, have Williams, and had VaWes instead of RMC!
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on March 16, 2010, 07:29:10 PM
Quote from: ziggy on March 15, 2010, 10:05:41 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 14, 2010, 03:28:25 PM
Now the pressure is on...
I have all four teams picked correctly and am tied for first in the men's pick'em. I have Guilford over Stevens Point in the finals and a total score of 131 points.
Of interest, these two teams have eliminated UT-Dallas from the tourney in the last 2 seasons.
dang, there goes my chance at a comeback...
I also have Guilford over UWSP in the championship. Got Williams right, RMC wrong, went with Virginia Wesleyan instead (oops!)
Identical to my situation! I too have Guilford over UWSP, have Williams, and had VaWes instead of RMC!
UWSP over VaWes - Guilford over Williams - UWSP over Guilford 138 pts, but I'm only in 33rd so not much of a chance for me.
(Posted on WIAC board, but putting here too so I know where to find this list!)
Quote from: hasanova on March 18, 2010, 10:18:37 AM
Salem may not be the best location, but it is "centrally" located and has more to offer the tournament than you might think.
Teams that have made it to the Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 to present)Williams 5 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010) - NESCAC
Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
UW-Stevens Point 3 (2004, 2005, 2010) - WIAC
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Guilford 2 (2009, 2010) - ODAC
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007) - NCAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Randolph-Macon (2010) - ODAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC
By stateMassachusetts: 10
Pennsylvania: 8
Wisconsin: 7
Ohio: 6
Michigan: 5
Virginia: 5
Illinois: 4
New Jersey: 4
Missouri: 3
New York: 2
North Carolina: 2
Connecticut: 1
DC: 1
Minnesota: 1
Nebraska: 1
I'd argue that Salem is not all that "centrally" located...
* "Midwest" (OH, MI, IL, IN, MO, IA, WI): 26
* "Northeast" (PA and up): 25
* "East"/"Southeast" (DC/VA/NC): 8
* "Northwest": 1
For about half of the teams that have been there, I don't think Salem was
easily accessible (I consider a 10+ hour car ride or $600+ airfare to be not easily accessible). Granted, there is no way to make the D3 Final Four easily accessible for teams like Nebraska Wesleyan, or NWC/SCIAC teams...but in the Salem Era, we've only had 1 of those.
To me, "centrally located" - as far as Division III goes - is somewhere in Ohio. I have been clear on these boards to note, however, that no one has yet to propose a perfect venue that is centrally located. And even when we located the perfect venue, the ownership has to
want the D3 Final Four (not exactly a big money maker). Until all of that happens, I am a firm Salem supporter...even with the location being what it is. The folks in Salem do a tremendous job.
This will be the second time in D3 tourney history that there has been a rematch in the national championship game. Tomorrow Williams will seek to avenge an 84-82 defeat at the hands of UW-Stevens Point in the 2003 title contest, as the Ephs and Pointers will square off for the 2010 national title.
In 1979 North Park defeated Potsdam State, 66-62, to win the second of an eventual three straight national championships for the Vikings, and in 1985 North Park also took the rematch against Potsdam State in that season's title game, 72-71.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2010, 09:06:50 PM
This will be the second time in D3 tourney history that there has been a rematch in the national championship game. Tomorrow Williams will seek to avenge an 84-82 defeat at the hands of UW-Stevens Point in the 2003 2004 title contest, as the Ephs and Pointers will square off for the 2010 national title.
In 1979 North Park defeated Potsdam State, 66-62, to win the second of an eventual three straight national championships for the Vikings, and in 1985 North Park also took the rematch against Potsdam State in that season's title game, 72-71.
Williams won their national championship in 03... stole it from Gustavus Adolphus before playing one of the best basketball games I've ever seen in 04 against Point.
Should be another classic battle tomorrow!
Congrats to the two ODAC teams who competed very hard to the end and have nothing to be ashamed of with their seasons.
Good catch. That's what I get for posting in a hurry and not proofreading.
Great experience in Salem despite a heart-breaker at the very end. I definitely hope they keep Salem as the site (and yes, I'm biased since I live in the DC region). Great arena, plenty of cheap places to stay nearby, tremendous hospitality by the venue, gorgeous weather this time of year, overall a very fun experience. Fun reconnecting with Eph fans and meeting fans of some of the other teams. I am hoping the Ephs give me cause to make a return visit in the next few years ... and I hope if they do, there are no WIAC teams there (nothing personal, but 3 out of the 4 times the Ephs have lost in Salem, it's been courtesy of WIAC, and the other time was to a team I think isn't even in D-3 anymore or at least never plays in the tourney ... undefeated in Salem vs. the rest of the country!).
I am not sure anyone has commented yet on the all-star game. I thought it was a great addition. The players obviously had a lot of fun and put on an entertaining show. In typical all-star fashion, there wasn't much defense played until the last two minutes plus the OT, when the players showed their wills to win. I think including the players, automatically, from the losing semifinalists was a BIG plus and clearly made the game a LOT more entertaining. Their teammates were cheering for them raucously (especially the two RMC kids) and it just added to the fun / energy level, plus a nice reward for the semifinalist teams. One of the RMC kids even went off for 11 points! Although the highlight of the game was definitely when Sanborn instinctively passed to Henson by accident (on opposite teams) and Henson nailed a three then credited Sanborn for the assist, much to Sanborn's disgust.
Speaking of Henson, he was easily the MVP of the game. Scored 35 on a variety of deep threes and very tough runners. Made me appreciate the defensive job Blake Schultz did on him in the semifinal all the more, he is a HECK of a player (as is Sanborn). MVP for the east, I thought, was the big guy from William Patterson (not even gonna try to spell his name). He is nasty on both offense and especially defense, many blocks of the other big guys who were visibly frustrated by him, and he even crossed over Sean Wallis on one occasion! I was also really impressed by Josh Sharlow (very creative and athletic player, fun to watch) and Wallis, who is a fantastic pure point guard and made some amazing passes, especially when you consider he's never played with these guys before. Misevisious showed off a nice shooting touch, and Braswell and Kyle Meyer both looked very good as well. But really, everyone pretty much looked like they belonged and it was a nice showcase for D-3 talent.
I have heard that each kid who participated in the all star game was to receive a DVD of it...will there be a way anyone else could get a copy...or a link to the game somewhere? Penn Atlantic does not replay games (that I know of). Thanks.
FanJacket -- not that I'm aware of. We don't have a copy of it, either.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2010, 04:21:12 PM
FanJacket -- not that I'm aware of. We don't have a copy of it, either.
Pat, is there a box score?
So, in light of what happened in the Stagg Bowl and the Final Four, which two purple clad teams will face-off for the World Series title?
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on March 21, 2010, 06:37:47 PM
So, in light of what happened in the Stagg Bowl and the Final Four, which two purple clad teams will face-off for the World Series title?
St. Thomas is the defending champion and #1 ranked. UWSP and UWW usually contend. Linfield is another quality purple team.
Does anybody know (or can you figure out...) the records of the teams that play first vs. second for the national championship game? This was the third year that Point played the second semi (and their third win) and I'd be interesting to see if there's any corollary between playing in one particular semi-final and winning the game the next day. It would seem that playing in the first would be a two-fold advantage (the biggest being additional rest and the next being more clear focus prior to your game because the other one isn't going on and finally having the ability to view the next game knowing that you'll be playing the winner the next day), but I wonder if this really holds to be true (or if I'm off in those perceived advantages).
Wooster played in the early semifinal both times they went to Salem I believe ('03 and '07). In both instances, the team that beat the Scots (ie. the early semifinal winner) went on to win the national championship the next day. Williams in '03 and Amherst in '07.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 21, 2010, 06:28:40 AMnothing personal, but 3 out of the 4 times the Ephs have lost in Salem, it's been courtesy of WIAC, and the other time was to a team I think isn't even in D-3 anymore or at least never plays in the tourney ...
Nebraska Wesleyan is still very much a part of D3, nescac1. The Prairie Wolves have simply fallen upon hard times in recent seasons and have dropped down to mediocrity.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2010, 01:54:36 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on March 21, 2010, 06:28:40 AMnothing personal, but 3 out of the 4 times the Ephs have lost in Salem, it's been courtesy of WIAC, and the other time was to a team I think isn't even in D-3 anymore or at least never plays in the tourney ...
Nebraska Wesleyan is still very much a part of D3, nescac1. The Prairie Wolves have simply fallen upon hard times in recent seasons and have dropped down to mediocrity.
For what it's worth, wasn't there a time not so long ago when Nebraska Wesleyan held dual membership in NCAA D3 and NAIA?
Quote from: Warren Thompson on March 22, 2010, 04:12:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2010, 01:54:36 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on March 21, 2010, 06:28:40 AMnothing personal, but 3 out of the 4 times the Ephs have lost in Salem, it's been courtesy of WIAC, and the other time was to a team I think isn't even in D-3 anymore or at least never plays in the tourney ...
Nebraska Wesleyan is still very much a part of D3, nescac1. The Prairie Wolves have simply fallen upon hard times in recent seasons and have dropped down to mediocrity.
For what it's worth, wasn't there a time not so long ago when Nebraska Wesleyan held dual membership in NCAA D3 and NAIA?
They still do.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 22, 2010, 04:59:13 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on March 22, 2010, 04:12:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2010, 01:54:36 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on March 21, 2010, 06:28:40 AMnothing personal, but 3 out of the 4 times the Ephs have lost in Salem, it's been courtesy of WIAC, and the other time was to a team I think isn't even in D-3 anymore or at least never plays in the tourney ...
Nebraska Wesleyan is still very much a part of D3, nescac1. The Prairie Wolves have simply fallen upon hard times in recent seasons and have dropped down to mediocrity.
For what it's worth, wasn't there a time not so long ago when Nebraska Wesleyan held dual membership in NCAA D3 and NAIA?
They still do.
NWU has held dual membership for decades. The rest of NWU's conference, the Great Plains Athletic Conference, consists of NAIA-only teams. The Prairie Wolves (ne Plainsmen) have gone their own way in the postseason ever since the dawn of D3 in the mid-'70s, however, declaring for the D3 tourney every year.
Incidentally, this may soon change. Several of NWU's rivals are exploring D3 membership and may soon join NWU in our ranks.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 21, 2010, 05:03:52 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 21, 2010, 04:21:12 PM
FanJacket -- not that I'm aware of. We don't have a copy of it, either.
Pat, is there a box score?
Pat,
Could you post a link for the box score of the All-Star game? Couldn't find it anywhere.
Magicman--at the end of the article regarding the All Stars is the full box score and play by play, etc. Article can be found in the "notables" section.
College bball analyst John Feinstein was at the championship game and his column about the event was in yesterday's Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/20/AR2010032003291.html
Yes, great story. We put it in What We're Reading and out on Twitter.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 22, 2010, 05:03:11 PM
Incidentally, this may soon change. Several of NWU's rivals are exploring D3 membership and may soon join NWU in our ranks.
That would a favorable turn of events for geographic orphan Colorado College. Trips to Nebraska, Iowa and South Dakota would be much preferable over trips to Alabama and Indiana. Also might give the Texas teams another pool of non-conference opponents to compete against.
Quote from: FanJacket on March 22, 2010, 06:02:08 PM
Magicman--at the end of the article regarding the All Stars is the full box score and play by play, etc. Article can be found in the "notables" section.
Thanks, FanJacket. Plus k.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 22, 2010, 08:59:53 PMTrips to Nebraska, Iowa and South Dakota would be much preferable over trips to Alabama and Indiana.
Speaking purely from personal experience, trips to Nova Scotia, Lapland, and the moons of Jupiter would be much preferable over trips to Alabama and Indiana. But I digress...
Early predictions before the tourney starts? Who'll be in the Final Four?
Quote from: Old School-Greek Tragedy on March 01, 2011, 11:10:28 AM
Early predictions before the tourney starts? Who'll be in the Final Four?
I went with Wooster, Williams, Point, and Middlebury.
Would not be surprised to see RMC or Whitworth there.
VWC, Amherst, or Augie would not be upsets.
Anyone else would (will) be a surprise.
I like surprises.
I'm going Wooster vs. Williams, Stevens Point vs. Randolph-Macon.
Teams that have made it to the Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 to 2010-11)
Williams 6 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004, 2010, 2011) - NESCAC
Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
UW-Stevens Point 3 (2004, 2005, 2010) - WIAC
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Wooster 3 (2003, 2007, 2011) - NCAC
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Guilford 2 (2009, 2010) - ODAC
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Middlebury 1 (2011) - NESCAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Randolph-Macon (2010) - ODAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
St. Thomas 1 (2011) - MIAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC
Final Four preview, from a Williams perspective, with tons of relevant links:
http://www.ephblog.com/2011/03/17/final-four-mega-preview/
Great comeback and win by Wooster. Good luck to Scots in Final.
Quote from: nwhoops1903 on March 19, 2011, 12:16:48 PM
Great comeback and win by Wooster. Good luck to Scots in Final.
There are appeared to be a strong contingent of Wooster fans who had made the 370 mile trip to Salem. They certainly were waving the gold towels.
Was it enough to be considered an element in the Wooster comeback?
Looking at the map, St Thomas is the campus with the 3rd farthest west latitude of any school appearing in the Final Four in the D3hoops.com era.
Going west to east...
1) Nebraska Wesleyan -- Lincoln, NE
2) Gustavus Adolphus -- St Peter, MN
3) St Thomas -- St Paul, MN
Sounds like two of the most exciting semi final games played. I would imagine that would be the closest combined semi final scores of all time. What were the crowds like? It was posted Williams and Wooster were bringing big crowds, how about St. Thomas and Middlebury? Good luck to St. Thomas today.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on March 19, 2011, 12:53:14 PM
Looking at the map, St Thomas is the campus with the 3rd farthest west latitude of any school appearing in the Final Four in the D3hoops.com era.
Going west to east...
1) Nebraska Wesleyan -- Lincoln, NE
2) Gustavus Adolphus -- St Peter, MN
3) St Thomas -- St Paul, MN
It will be very hard for D3 to have a Final Four participant that's further west than Stanislaus State, which finished fourth in 1982 (and is now a D2 school). Only UC-Santa Cruz and a handful of NWC schools are further west than Turlock, CA, which is where Stanislaus State is located.
Quote from: Old School-Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2011, 12:56:31 PM
Sounds like two of the most exciting semi final games played. I would imagine that would be the closest combined semi final scores of all time. What were the crowds like? It was posted Williams and Wooster were bringing big crowds, how about St. Thomas and Middlebury? Good luck to St. Thomas today.
Two teams from the heartland in the national championship game! I'm all for that!
17-2 run for St. Thomas brings them from 6 down to 9 up. Great game so far. No real weak spots on either side.
I think it will come down to how well Wooster can survive the press in the second half.
Went from 11-2 Wooster to 30-16 St. Thomas real fast. Seven minutes to go in the first half.
St. Thomas is 6-9 from deep so far. Just laying into Wooster now. The press is frustrating Wooster.
43-27 - St. Thomas up 16 at the half. Everytime Wooster breaks the press they throw the ball away. There're going to have to be some big time adjustments at the half for Wooster to get back in this.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 19, 2011, 04:10:37 PM
43-27 - St. Thomas up 16 at the half. Everytime Wooster breaks the press they throw the ball away. There're going to have to be some big time adjustments at the half for Wooster to get back in this.
43-26 - Franks' buzzer beating shot ruled a 2 after video replay. Rough call.
Looked to me like his toe was on the line.
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 19, 2011, 04:13:16 PM
Looked to me like his toe was on the line.
Yeah, its almost like it slid onto the line as he was jumping. It's the right call, but such a rough spot for Wooster. This is just one more thing that hasn't been going well for them.
Wooster is losing the TO battle 11-3 - St. Thomas scored 25 points off Wooster turnovers. That's the story - that and all of St. Thomas' threes.
Thanks for updates. Livestats via cstv.com don't work on my phone. Good work! Keep them coming!
Wooster cuts it to 10 - Franks taking over.
Quote from: Old School-Greek Tragedy on March 19, 2011, 04:29:03 PM
Thanks for updates. Livestats via cstv.com don't work on my phone. Good work! Keep them coming!
They do - you have to go up to the score bar across the top and click on the championship game over at the left end.
It's working for me here - http://www.cstv.com/gametracker/launch/gt_mbaskbl.html?sport=mbaskbl&camefrom=985313&startschool=cs&event=985315&school=cs&
Wooster using every advantage - the refs don't realize that this group of doughy and skinny fellows are actually really good basketball players.
Franks might be trying to do too much now. He's taken bad shots four trips in a row.
St. Thomas up 14 with the ball.
Wooster started out the second half well - patient on offense and focused on defense. Neither of those things is happening anymore. Looks like the first half again.
St. Thomas up 17 again.
St. Thomas is just more aggressive and much more confident.
Nicolai is letting his team do their work - he's just running around and knocking down the occasional open three. He's not even become fully engaged.
St. Thomas just out-executing - all around playing better in every facet of the game.
If I hadn't seen this team beat Whitworth and Williams, I never would have believed it. Not good right now.
St. Thomas seems to be getting the short end from the refs, but it doesn't matter - at least not yet.
10 minutes to go - St. Thomas by 17.
Wooster really has taken advantage, in the tournament, of improved play from Hallowell - he's just not been able to engage today in the final. That's hurting them. Having a big man hitting from deep really changes what the opponent can do on defense.
That coupled with St. Thomas' advantage inside is tough to overcome.
St. Thomas by 20 with 7:39 to go.
Tommy Hannon has no missed a shot from the floor - literally 6-6 so far.
5 minutes to go
St. Thomas 67 - Wooster 50.
74-50 - three minutes to go. St. Thomas has five guys in double figures.
It's over.
Wooster showed up too late and not for long enough.
Wooster blew two layups when the Scots had cut it to a ten-point deficit. UST kept scoring, pushed the lead back up to 17 while the Scots couldn't drop the bunnies, and that was the end of it.
A minute to go. St. Thomas by 22.
Congratulations, Tommies.
Nicolai wins MOP.
Congrats to the Tommies. That was an absolutely dominating performance. Except for that opening 11-2 run by Wooster, the Tommies played about as well as a team can play today.
Congrats to the Tommies. As a Middlebury diehard, I tip my hat to you.
Congratulations to St. Thomas for a heck of a run to the championship. They beat the #3 Pointers, then #7 Augustana, #2 Middlebury, and # 5 Wooster. All 4 teams were ranked above the #8 Tommies in the most recent D3Hoops poll. I don't think any other team had a harder path to the title. Well earned and deserved. Special thanks to Tyler Nicolai who almost scored more points (153) that anyone else in our NCAA Fantasy League.(And I had him on my team ;D) Justin Hallowell from Wooster led the league with 159 points. The best part is that Tyler wasn't a top 10 pick or a top 20. He was the 38th player chosen out of 42 drafted players. 8-) I think that might be a fantasy league record. :D
My congratulations too to the Tommies, and especially to Steve Fritz on his long-overdue first championship. It was a dominating performance, and a well-deserved title. One day we'll find a sport we can beat you guys in! :)
Now it's time to regroup and find a way to get Steve Moore his long-overdue first championship!
Congrats to St. Thomas. That was indeed a brutal path to the title. A true team in every sense of the word, while they did have one clear star, many different guys stepped up at key moments during the run, it seems like. For example I was very impressed with a kid in the Midd game, built like a football player, one of the better pure athletes I've seen in D-3, tremendous energy guy, all over the court on defense, great role player. Everyone seemed to know their role and they played tremendous team defense all through the run. I was pulling for Wooster as I wanted the team to beat Williams to win it all, plus my s.o. is a Hamline alum and wasn't too psyched about St. Thomas winning the first MIAC crown (although she is pleased at the MIAC recognition, at least). But I don't think anyone can say that, at the end of the year, the best team in the country came out on top.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 20, 2011, 03:29:14 AM
But I don't think anyone can say that, at the end of the year, the best team in the country came out on top.
Why exactly can it not be said that the best team in the country came out on top? Because it wasn't your beloved Williams squad? Clearly, St. Thomas was playing the best basketball at the right time of the year. What is your guide to determining the best team in the country? Please don't tell me rankings. Determining the best team is resolved out on the court and gauging by who they had to get through to win the championship, I'd say it's pretty clear St. Thomas is in fact THE BEST. Make no mistake about it.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 20, 2011, 03:29:14 AM
But I don't think anyone can say that, at the end of the year, the best team in the country came out on top.
Good morning.
In the finest traditions of D3boards.com discussion and debate, may I ask you to dissect and defend the arguments for the best team in the country that hosuld have come out on top?
Please consider the opponents, home court advantage, the brackets themselves and any other factor that needs to brought to the attention of our fans. I will encourage you, and any other fan to offer a response, and then I will give mine later this evening. Thank you. :)
I was missing a word!!!! I meant to say that no one can say the best team DIDN'T come out on top, if that wasn't clear from context, apologies, but that was what I meant to convey. Obviously St. Thomas was the best, and that is what I meant to say, just a typo.
Quote from: nescac1 on March 20, 2011, 09:49:34 AM
I was missing a word!!!! I meant to say that no one can say the best team DIDN'T come out on top, if that wasn't clear from context, apologies, but that was what I meant to convey. Obviously St. Thomas was the best, and that is what I meant to say, just a typo.
Thanks for the clarification nescac. That's a pretty big word to leave out there. :P ;)
It wasn't clear from context because you are a Williams fan pulling for Wooster who has an s.o. who is a Hamline alum. So, forgetting "DIDN'T" made it sound like you had sour grapes. Glad you realized your typo before everyone jumped on your case! LOL ;D :D ;)
Fair enough :)!
Amazing how well St. Thomas did on the road to the championship. A lot has been talked about their sectional final wins over defending champ Stevens Point and host Augustana, both ranked higher than the Tommies. Of course, playing a barnburner vs. Middlebury in the semis and an unbelievable final against Wooster.
But just think...they were down big in the opening round of the tourney vs. Northwestern and could've lost that game at home!
Quote from: Old School-Greek Tragedy on March 22, 2011, 03:35:37 AM
Amazing how well St. Thomas did on the road to the championship. A lot has been talked about their sectional final wins over defending champ Stevens Point and host Augustana, both ranked higher than the Tommies. Of course, playing a barnburner vs. Middlebury in the semis and an unbelievable final against Wooster.
But just think...they were down big in the opening round of the tourney vs. Northwestern and could've lost that game at home!
and the Williams OT win over Husson!
The road to the Final Four is tough and perilous.