What will be the impact of the NCAA's decision to move kick offs back to the 30 yard line? Will it mean better field position and more scoring opportunities for the offense?
I think that it will be bad for DIII. I have been to over one hundred DIII games and I can rememeber very few touchbacks. It will make the onside kick used only on neccessity and not a strategy move. I give the advantage to the return team, It may also change the way teams defer to the second half.
PA,
I agree about Division III, but for a fan, it might be nice to see nearly all kickoffs at our level in play ... as in, we'll see a return and perhaps a big hit or a dazzling juke, instead of a boring kneel-down.
Field-position wary coaches might hate it, but it could be a boon for some of the rest of us.
As you said though, there aren't many D3 guys who can get it out of the end zone anyway, except on a blustery day, so it may have a small impact.
QuoteI give the advantage to the return team, It may also change the way teams defer to the second half.
I was thinking the same thing...wondering how coaches might factor this into game day strategy...I do have to think that offenses in general will be getting some improved field position...
QuoteI agree about Division III, but for a fan, it might be nice to see nearly all kickoffs at our level in play ... as in, we'll see a return and perhaps a big hit or a dazzling juke, instead of a boring kneel-down.
Agree...
K-Mack
There may be a bodies flying everywhere...
My only other concern that I have seen more and more on the high school level is the pop up kicks to force fair catches. The attitude of give them the ball at the thirty on a pooch kick instead of a running jumps !!!
If a kicker out kicks his coverage to the 5 or even 10 teams will run it back..
I just think it takes a good kickoff guy out of the game!!
QuoteThere may be a bodies flying everywhere...
My only other concern that I have seen more and more on the high school level is the pop up kicks to force fair catches. The attitude of give them the ball at the thirty on a pooch kick instead of a running jumps !!!
Hadn't thought of that...but you may be right. Don't know if there's anything to back it up or just my imagination, but it seems like I've seen the "pop up" kick more frequently over the past two seasons...
These kickers better get off their tails and get those legs stronger this summer. Leg speed, strenght, follow through and timing and height will be the key. Since they lowered the tee size last year, height is a concern. I have preached that to my son since last year. Also these kickers better be in top shape so they can make a tackle. I believe they are going to see more action on that line this year.
QuoteThese kickers better get off their tails and get those legs stronger this summer. Leg speed, strenght, follow through and timing and height will be the key. Since they lowered the tee size last year, height is a concern. I have preached that to my son since last year. Also these kickers better be in top shape so they can make a tackle. I believe they are going to see more action on that line this year.
Atta baby, Kickerdad! I like it...
Maybe there is a job out there for my son... He was one of the best squib kickers around. Tho I think it's not something that can be taught as much as it is a knack.
Kickerdad
The also better strnegthen their necks because thier heads better be on a swivel looking for hunters!!!
Just like the NCAA trying to fix something that ain't broke.
I'd rather have this to speed up games than the idiotic timing rules they foisted on us last season. This is the 2007 solution to the Division I-A game-length issue.
Why couldn't they keep the kickoff as it was and just shorten the play clock after touchbacks like the new rule for after tv timeouts? Could have the 1st and 10 from the 20 play decided by the time the kick gets to the end zone. Does the shorter play clock hamper the offenses that call the play at the line though?
You want to shorten the game, lets go back to no substitutions except for injury and run the single wing. Of course Warren and Frank Ubile would have to come out of retirement to coach it. ;D
Funny how the college kids can kick into the endzone at will and the pros have trouble.... I know the pro's kick a new boxed ball for kick offs ,but I believe the college kids had to kick different balls for kick offs too until last year or the year before??? I guess the famed helium balls that Houston used for Erxlaban had sopmething to do with that???
Quote from: Knightstalker on May 31, 2007, 09:52:03 PM
You want to shorten the game, lets go back to no substitutions except for injury and run the single wing. Of course Warren and Frank Ubile would have to come out of retirement to coach it. ;D
Actually, in Virginia, a high-school team running the single-wing (Osbourn) won the state title in the biggest classification this year. The best part is the coach who installed it took over after the team had lost 32 in a row, and won a state title in four years I think.
Crosstown rival Osbourn Park and some other successful Va. teams (Oakton maybe) have employed elements of the single-wing. Osbourn's was a true single wing when I saw it though, snapping to different guys every play and having a main ballcarrier but no true QB.
Anyway, I know you were kidding, but it actually makes some sense as far as showing defenses something they've never seen. With everyone running some form of the spread these days, you actually have an opportunity to completely baffle a defense by running something proven to work, although years ago :)
As far as the kickoff, I really don't mind. You would think (hope) D3 kickers could at least get it to the 10 regularly from the new spot.
Voorhees high school in Hunterdon County NJ ran the single wing a few years ago because they had four or five big full back type runners and a couple of fast kids, one who ended single wing version of the qb. They gave some teams night mares, I believe they went to the wishbone after they got an actual qb on the team. To bad they couldn't play defense to go with an offence that would take most of a quarter to score.
Quote from: Knightstalker on May 31, 2007, 11:44:37 PM
Voorhees high school in Hunterdon County NJ ran the single wing a few years ago
That's weird that Voorhees high is in Hunterdon, N.J.; I played against Eastern from Voorhees, N.J., which isn't close to Central Jersey at all.
Anyway, I know there's a site dedicated to the Wing-T (bucksweep.org) or something. I wonder if they have some Single Wing love on there, or if there's a single wing site.
I'm just a smidge short of the football nerdiness required to go look.
Quote from: OxyBob on May 31, 2007, 11:59:14 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 31, 2007, 08:06:24 PM
This is the 2007 solution to the Division I-A game-length issue.
I am for anything which will lessen the number of times I have to be tortured while hearing the incredibly annoying Tribute To Troy (http://www.dwighthigh.k12.il.us/BAND/midi/07Tribute%20to%20Troy.mp3) played repeatedly during USC games.
OxyBob
The only thing torturing me is the pulchritude of the "
USC Song Girls" (http://www.usc.edu/student-affairs/IMREC/spirit/song/home.html)!
Quote from: K-Mack on June 01, 2007, 12:21:38 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on May 31, 2007, 11:44:37 PM
Voorhees high school in Hunterdon County NJ ran the single wing a few years ago
That's weird that Voorhees high is in Hunterdon, N.J.; I played against Eastern from Voorhees, N.J., which isn't close to Central Jersey at all.
Anyway, I know there's a site dedicated to the Wing-T (bucksweep.org) or something. I wonder if they have some Single Wing love on there, or if there's a single wing site.
I'm just a smidge short of the football nerdiness required to go look.
Voorhees high school in Hunterdon County is in the town of High Bridge and is part of the North Hunterdon school district They are maybe a mile or two from the Warren County Border, Still North Jersey to me. There is also a Voorhees in south Jersey.
Quote from: OxyBob on June 01, 2007, 11:11:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on June 01, 2007, 12:24:37 AM
Quote from: OxyBob on May 31, 2007, 11:59:14 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 31, 2007, 08:06:24 PM
This is the 2007 solution to the Division I-A game-length issue.
I am for anything which will lessen the number of times I have to be tortured while hearing the incredibly annoying Tribute To Troy (http://www.dwighthigh.k12.il.us/BAND/midi/07Tribute%20to%20Troy.mp3) played repeatedly during USC games.
OxyBob
The only thing torturing me is the pulchritude of the "USC Song Girls"!
Pulchritude? Isn't it just a whole lot easier to say "Nice rack"?
(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftbn0.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3A5XU8uc3vT7pYmM%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.deadspin.com%2Fassets%2Fresources%2F2006%2F11%2Fusccheerleaders.JPG&hash=bda51cfda386569b053ccfaa930d322faeb21041)
OxyBob
"Nice rack" is D1 Football Bowl Subdivision; "Pulchritude" is representative of a fine Division III education. ;)
Exactly. I think those sorority gals at DePauw lacked the "Pulchritude" necessary to remain at such an institution....
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on May 31, 2007, 10:09:36 PM
Funny how the college kids can kick into the endzone at will and the pros have trouble.... I know the pro's kick a new boxed ball for kick offs ,but I believe the college kids had to kick different balls for kick offs too until last year or the year before??? I guess the famed helium balls that Houston used for Erxlaban had sopmething to do with that???
No reason why D3 Kickers can't get it inside the 10 or in the endzone for that matter. The problem is the special team coaches don't make the kickers work on kickoffs as much as they should and the conditioning coaches don't force the kickers to concerntrate on their legs as much as they should. My son tells me that he does squats and lunges but no leg extensions, leg presses or calf raises. Maybe things have changed in the past 30+ years but when I came along (kicked straight on) your leg needed to be hard as the concrete. Plus you needed that whipping motion (leg speed). If I didn't get it to the goal line or in the end zone, I got a butt chewing when I got back to the side line.
Speaking of "Hunters" yea, some teams have one guy designated to take out the kicker. My son found that out the hard way last year. He had to have his Family Jewels extracted from his stomach. So yeah they better be smart as well as strong.
My son had a ACL ,was being blocked 30 yrds away from the play and was pancaked by another player. It is still a topic that lets say was as cheap a play as there is.... The player who did the hitting came from the side line more on a sneak attack with three minutes left in the game. Same team ran the same play the following year but he was ready for it..
Quote from: K-Mack on May 31, 2007, 11:38:39 PM
Quote from: Knightstalker on May 31, 2007, 09:52:03 PM
You want to shorten the game, lets go back to no substitutions except for injury and run the single wing. Of course Warren and Frank Ubile would have to come out of retirement to coach it. ;D
Actually, in Virginia, a high-school team running the single-wing (Osbourn) won the state title in the biggest classification this year. The best part is the coach who installed it took over after the team had lost 32 in a row, and won a state title in four years I think.
Crosstown rival Osbourn Park and some other successful Va. teams (Oakton maybe) have employed elements of the single-wing. Osbourn's was a true single wing when I saw it though, snapping to different guys every play and having a main ballcarrier but no true QB.
Anyway, I know you were kidding, but it actually makes some sense as far as showing defenses something they've never seen. With everyone running some form of the spread these days, you actually have an opportunity to completely baffle a defense by running something proven to work, although years ago :)
Do a Google and you'll find any number of sites devoted to the single-wing. As K-Mack points out, there are high schools in Virginia using it. There's also an interesting offense called the "Wildcat Formation," also used by a Virginia school. (And I lift my glass to the Pittsburgh Steelers, the very last NFL team to feature the single-wing.)
Knightstalker: where do I sign up? ;)
Rumor has it that if the NCAA decided to move the kick off back to the 30 that they would recind the rule last year on shortening the tee to 1 inch and allow them to go back to 2 inches. . . . Does anyone know the truth to all this... Will the tee remain at 1 inch or go back to 2?
Kickerdad,
I have not heard anything about the NCAA bringing back the two inch tee. I have some very strong feelings about the whole situation. I do not agree with the rationale to move the tee to one inch one year and the next move the spot back to the thirty yard line. This will certainly separate those kickers who have strong legs from those who are accurate and consistant. At this level I would much rather have a kicker who can hit 90% of their FG's from 40 and in, and be able to place their K/O inside the ten yard line with good height.
Highlander, I agree. Seems like the rules committee want to make changes but they don't pay attention or understand the down stream effects of the change. (Or they don't want to understand). I can't believe I am sitting here putting those guys down, however this one hits home and I feel for all the kickers out there D1, DII and DIII because there aren't many guys that can put the ball in the air 70 yards with the required height in order to allow the coverage team a chance to get down field. I see where this will cause a lot of good kickers to give up on kick off's and turn to FG's and PAT's only. Kickers use to pride themselves on getting the ball in the end zone or out and creating a TB. Now they will have to listen to all the Monday Morning QB's complain about the short kick off's that gave the other team good field position. They will go to look at their stats and see terrible net yards on kick off's It will deflate them early.
If any kicking coach is reading this I strongly advise you to start gettng your kickers prepared for this now and make them get in the weight room and work extra time on the kick off's. You know you will have to get in their heads and get them programmed for this. IF they care about their position they should be already working at home on their kicks. You need to drop them an email or get on the phone to them and tell them the good news.
A Division III head coach is now head of the rules committee. (Was not when the original timing rules changes went into place before the 2006 season.) I feel confident that the non-televised football opinion is being heard.
Quote from: Highlander on June 03, 2007, 09:55:18 PM
Kickerdad,
I have not heard anything about the NCAA bringing back the two inch tee. I have some very strong feelings about the whole situation. I do not agree with the rationale to move the tee to one inch one year and the next move the spot back to the thirty yard line. This will certainly separate those kickers who have strong legs from those who are accurate and consistant. At this level I would much rather have a kicker who can hit 90% of their FG's from 40 and in, and be able to place their K/O inside the ten yard line with good height.
Would this also increase the need to have two guys, an accurate field goal guy and a strong-legged kickoff specialist? Maybe during regular-season home games that's not an issue, but on limited travel rosters or playoff rosters, that can be a pain.
KickerDad, with regard to the 70 yards needed to reach the end zone and possible changes in kicking style necessary for some to keep their jobs ... do you think there are kickers out there who can go the full 70 if they flatten the trajectory on the kicks, but won't because those will end up being direct line drives to return men? Will the net effect be either shorter, higher kickoffs, or more directional kicks, perhaps even to up-backs, to limit field position?
While I feel your pain, personally, as a fan of the game, I like to see more kickoffs returned. While the touchback is a exhibition of one player's skill (the kicker) and an important field position strategy device, a returned kick is a much more active, exciting play to watch. I'm sure all the part-time special teamers out there will enjoy the increased activity, if the net effect is significant.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 02, 2007, 01:50:55 PMMy son had a ACL
I have two! (I think)
Quote from: K-Mack on June 04, 2007, 01:13:34 AM
Quote from: Highlander on June 03, 2007, 09:55:18 PM
Kickerdad,
I have not heard anything about the NCAA bringing back the two inch tee. I have some very strong feelings about the whole situation. I do not agree with the rationale to move the tee to one inch one year and the next move the spot back to the thirty yard line. This will certainly separate those kickers who have strong legs from those who are accurate and consistant. At this level I would much rather have a kicker who can hit 90% of their FG's from 40 and in, and be able to place their K/O inside the ten yard line with good height.
Would this also increase the need to have two guys, an accurate field goal guy and a strong-legged kickoff specialist? Maybe during regular-season home games that's not an issue, but on limited travel rosters or playoff rosters, that can be a pain.
KickerDad, with regard to the 70 yards needed to reach the end zone and possible changes in kicking style necessary for some to keep their jobs ... do you think there are kickers out there who can go the full 70 if they flatten the trajectory on the kicks, but won't because those will end up being direct line drives to return men? Will the net effect be either shorter, higher kickoffs, or more directional kicks, perhaps even to up-backs, to limit field position?
While I feel your pain, personally, as a fan of the game, I like to see more kickoffs returned. While the touchback is a exhibition of one player's skill (the kicker) and an important field position strategy device, a returned kick is a much more active, exciting play to watch. I'm sure all the part-time special teamers out there will enjoy the increased activity, if the net effect is significant.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 02, 2007, 01:50:55 PMMy son had a ACL
I have two! (I think)
K-Mack,
My own personal preference if I was a coach, (and to set the record straight, I AM NOT) would be to kick it with great height to somewhere between the 5 and 8 yd line, and depending on the scouting report of the return men place it between hash and sideline. Giving your coverage team opportunity to get down and under it. However this will now require a stronger leg than most kickers have now and with a short tee it means as a coach, you have to come up with the correct strategy for the team you are up against. I forsee more of the high kicks to the outside up men in hopes of them calling for the fair catch somewhere around the 25 or 30. I also see some coachs going for the squib kicks to the slower up men in hopes that they will fall on it to cover and maybe even bobble. On-side kicks will become less of a worry unless you are down and time is almost out. Direct line drives will give the runner time to generate a full head of steam and be risky business. Coverage team won't have a chance to get down field and break down for a stop. They will be chasing him like a hound after a rabbit. You lane defense will be gone before they pass the 50 yard line. That's my 2 cents worth.
As far as ACL's I had two along with a bunch of cartilage but after 6 knee operations between both knees, I now have two fake ACL's and zero Cartilage. Just bone on bone. But god I still love this game.
If you want more height on a kickoff, perhaps going old school might help, give the punter and square toed kickers boot and teach him how to be George Blanda. A strong legged kicker booting it straight could probably put it pretty deep and get under it better. In HS I used to kickoff straight on and fg and extra points were soccer style because it was much more accurate.
Many of the straight on kickers were linemen, because of pure leg strength.
Quote from: janesvilleflash on June 05, 2007, 07:18:30 AM
Many of the straight on kickers were linemen, because of pure leg strength.
Amen brother. Some of these kids today look like they have toothpicks for legs.
My son may have has the biggest feet for a kicker 11 +. Most of there kids today have smaaaaaaallll feet.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 05, 2007, 04:16:36 PM
My son may have has the biggest feet for a kicker 11 +. Most of there kids today have smaaaaaaallll feet.
Tell him not to feel bad, I was a kicker and I wear a size 13.
kickerdad,
Watch out - the NCAA may legislate maximum foot size like the PGA limits oversized drivers! ;D
Quote from: kickerdad on June 04, 2007, 12:36:26 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on June 04, 2007, 01:13:34 AM
Quote from: Highlander on June 03, 2007, 09:55:18 PM
Kickerdad,
I have not heard anything about the NCAA bringing back the two inch tee. I have some very strong feelings about the whole situation. I do not agree with the rationale to move the tee to one inch one year and the next move the spot back to the thirty yard line. This will certainly separate those kickers who have strong legs from those who are accurate and consistant. At this level I would much rather have a kicker who can hit 90% of their FG's from 40 and in, and be able to place their K/O inside the ten yard line with good height.
Would this also increase the need to have two guys, an accurate field goal guy and a strong-legged kickoff specialist? Maybe during regular-season home games that's not an issue, but on limited travel rosters or playoff rosters, that can be a pain.
KickerDad, with regard to the 70 yards needed to reach the end zone and possible changes in kicking style necessary for some to keep their jobs ... do you think there are kickers out there who can go the full 70 if they flatten the trajectory on the kicks, but won't because those will end up being direct line drives to return men? Will the net effect be either shorter, higher kickoffs, or more directional kicks, perhaps even to up-backs, to limit field position?
While I feel your pain, personally, as a fan of the game, I like to see more kickoffs returned. While the touchback is a exhibition of one player's skill (the kicker) and an important field position strategy device, a returned kick is a much more active, exciting play to watch. I'm sure all the part-time special teamers out there will enjoy the increased activity, if the net effect is significant.
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 02, 2007, 01:50:55 PMMy son had a ACL
I have two! (I think)
K-Mack,
My own personal preference if I was a coach, (and to set the record straight, I AM NOT) would be to kick it with great height to somewhere between the 5 and 8 yd line, and depending on the scouting report of the return men place it between hash and sideline. Giving your coverage team opportunity to get down and under it. However this will now require a stronger leg than most kickers have now and with a short tee it means as a coach, you have to come up with the correct strategy for the team you are up against. I forsee more of the high kicks to the outside up men in hopes of them calling for the fair catch somewhere around the 25 or 30. I also see some coachs going for the squib kicks to the slower up men in hopes that they will fall on it to cover and maybe even bobble. On-side kicks will become less of a worry unless you are down and time is almost out. Direct line drives will give the runner time to generate a full head of steam and be risky business. Coverage team won't have a chance to get down field and break down for a stop. They will be chasing him like a hound after a rabbit. You lane defense will be gone before they pass the 50 yard line. That's my 2 cents worth.
As far as ACL's I had two along with a bunch of cartilage but after 6 knee operations between both knees, I now have two fake ACL's and zero Cartilage. Just bone on bone. But god I still love this game.
I agree with you almost wholeheartedly here.
In fact, to borrow your "if I were a coach" theme, I think kickoffs are overstrategized as it is. You want the wind at your back in the 4th quarter, but even that's mostly for field goals. But other than that, I don't like the squib kicks or the line drives. I like a team whose special teams can go down and make a dern tackle.
I would always have my guy try to kick it as deep as possible and try to cover it. I'm OK with angling toward the hash if you can keep it inbounds, and I'm OK with kicking to the worse of the two return men. But I would never use the squib or a line drive unless I'm fairly certain it's going to be the last play of a half. It never seems to benefit the kicking team field-position-wise.
Now, taking the runback for TD out of the equation is certainly a valid counterargument to putting it in play. But maybe you can offset that with the possibility of fumbles or muffed kicks by kicking it to the return men. In my experience, there are very few return men to fear, and when you do, it sort of tells your team you don't think you can stop him. I'd like to have 10 nutbags going down there trying to make a play.
I have no statistical data to back this up, but it seems to me that teams who kick off and cover the kick start off with better defensive field position than those who squib.
There are many variables, of course, in addition to skill of return men, including wind and wetness and quality of kick coverage team. So maybe some coaches have their reasons when squibbing or kicking for touchback.
Anyway ... it
must be the offseason :)
AH But if you can kick a squibb between the deep men and the up men you would reap great rewards. But you need accuracy as well..
But kicking it high and deep beats all..
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 06, 2007, 12:03:56 AM
AH But if you can kick a squibb between the deep men and the up men you would reap great rewards. But you need accuracy as well..
But kicking it high and deep beats all.
Do you favor a touchback to putting it in play?
I really have never given this this much thought before.
K-Mack, the wind in Texas in the 4th quarter can make or break a comeback. It is not uncommon in October and November to have 20-30 MPH winds that subside as sundown approaches.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on June 06, 2007, 12:23:33 AM
K-Mack, the wind in Texas in the 4th quarter can make or break a comeback. It is not uncommon in October and November to have 20-30 MPH winds that subside as sundown approaches.
I believe you.
I remember sitting in the Belton HS pressbox and having this moment where it became perfectly clear why that's Tornado Alley. I could see for miles. I think I counted about eight town water towers on the horizon.
So yeah, I see how wind could be a problem.
Although I've been to many a mid-Atlantic game where wind has wreaked havoc. Thinking particularly of a Johns Hopkins/Carnegie Mellon game I wrote about in ATN a few years back (http://www.d3football.com/atn.php?id=53), the Bridgewater-King's playoff game (http://d3football.com/story.php?story=1176) and a UVa. game where Al Groh deferred to the second half, then kicked off again just to avoid having the wind coming at them in the 4th.
QuoteDo you favor a touchback to putting it in play?
I really have never given this this much thought before
K-Mack,
I prefer putting it play unless you have a kicker that can put it out of the endzone on a regular basis. If you put it in play you be damn sure you have the best/uglyest/meanest/nasty/hell bent for leather 10 men on the team who can stay in their lanes, shed blocks and make one on one tackles. (before the runner gets to the 20 yard line.
I prefer a good high kick to the five with undersized madmen charging...And Especially Wesley's kick off team of any year!!!quote author=K-Mack link=topic=5274.msg721023#msg721023 date=1181102962]
Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on June 06, 2007, 12:03:56 AM
AH But if you can kick a squibb between the deep men and the up men you would reap great rewards. But you need accuracy as well..
But kicking it high and deep beats all.
Do you favor a touchback to putting it in play?
I really have never given this this much thought before.
[/quote]
Interesting discussion. The move from the 35 to the 30 effectively adds about 15 yards to a KO. A five deep KO this year with the coverage 5 yard back is the equivalent to a goal line kick last year. In order to insure a touchback the kick will need to be on the endline with at least a 4.0 hangtime. I believe that you will see a lot more run backs as a result.
It is a misnomer to believe that a low kick can be driven deeper. Take a water hose and watch that when you raise the stream of water to 30 to 40 degrees it will get its maximum distance. the same with a KO. A low kick will not get the distance that a kick with good trajectory and the same force will. A low kick 5 deep will result in a runback almost every time.
I am suggesting a kick 3-4 yards deep with a 4.0-4.3 hangtime. When the return guy catches it he will hesitate just a moment before he runs it out. That .5 second hesitation will effectively erase the 5 yard buffer and should result in stop somewhere inside the 20. I believe that you will see alot more strategy imployed with the changes.
check out www.kickstartkicking.com to see an interesting description of how this works.
Quote from: kickstart on June 21, 2007, 11:38:09 PM
Interesting discussion. The move from the 35 to the 30 effectively adds about 15 yards to a KO. A five deep KO this year with the coverage 5 yard back is the equivalent to a goal line kick last year. In order to insure a touchback the kick will need to be on the endline with at least a 4.0 hangtime. I believe that you will see a lot more run backs as a result.
It is a misnomer to believe that a low kick can be driven deeper. Take a water hose and watch that when you raise the stream of water to 30 to 40 degrees it will get its maximum distance. the same with a KO. A low kick will not get the distance that a kick with good trajectory and the same force will. A low kick 5 deep will result in a runback almost every time.
I am suggesting a kick 3-4 yards deep with a 4.0-4.3 hangtime. When the return guy catches it he will hesitate just a moment before he runs it out. That .5 second hesitation will effectively erase the 5 yard buffer and should result in stop somewhere inside the 20. I believe that you will see alot more strategy imployed with the changes.
check out www.kickstartkicking.com to see an interesting description of how this works.
Kickstart -
Showed this to my son and he loves it. We will be ordering one sometime this weekend. He and I have a couple of questions.
1. What weight lifting exercises do you find to be the best i.e. squats, leg lifts, leg presses?
2. Calf exercises? Other than leg lifts off a 4x4
3. Stretches for the hips. He has the tighest hips I have ever seen (hip flexors)
4. Does your instruction DVD have everything you web sit shows plus more?
And do we get a commission for the new customer you just got from your commercial post on our site that's in violation of the Terms of Service?
Sorry about that Pat, had no idea. I should have responded to his email address on the site.
No no, not your fault. He's the one who posted the commercial post, not you.
Just clicked on the Web site and saw that it was a dead link. Not surprised.
Just watched the beginning of that video...... As an old offensive lineman, if that thing were at practice we would take it from the kicker and screw around with it pre-practice. I for one would have broken my leg trying to kick the ball and jump over that thing. Probably works great.....just dangerous for fat kids.
Quote from: budcrew08 on June 22, 2007, 02:42:55 PM
Just clicked on the Web site and saw that it was a dead link. Not surprised.
Wow. Pat can delete other people's web sites. Now that's power.
I was glad to be an offensive lineman in addition to the kicker. Didn't have to worry about getting picked on. Plus this was back in the day of going both ways so most of the offense played defense as well. (yeah, I am an old fart, so don't even start). Today, everyone is a specialist......even the water cooler person is a specialist.
I don't think kickstart will come back to the site. I like the new kickoff rule. It will help Greensboro's return game alot they have quite a few burner's on the team. Namely Torrey Lowe. Move it back to the 20 yard is what I say. ;D
Quote from: kickerdad on June 22, 2007, 03:13:47 PM
I was glad to be an offensive lineman in addition to the kicker. Didn't have to worry about getting picked on. Plus this was back in the day of going both ways so most of the offense played defense as well. (yeah, I am an old fart, so don't even start). Today, everyone is a specialist......even the water cooler person is a specialist.
kickerdad, back then you kicked off with a funny square toed shoe and didn't need to jump in the air while doing it though.... ;)
kickerdad, back then you kicked off with a funny square toed shoe and didn't need to jump in the air while doing it though.... ;)
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You are right. And that is why I make no attempt to try and coach my son. I do get on his case about weight lifting and I can show him some of the old things we use to do (leg presses, Leg lifts, Leg Extensions, Calf raises and so on) to make your legs as hard as the gym floor. But they have got to fancy for me now with this soccer style crap. I admit, he can kick pretty good, but damn there is too much to look at and think about with these soccer style guys to try and figure out what is wrong when they are having issues. Plant foot, follow through, leg spead and leg strenght is all I ever cared about, now you can have six chapters in a book for what you need to work on. If I had to kick soccer style right now, I would crush the plumbing system and end up in the hospital with my hip so far out of joint, they would never get it back right.
Pat: Sorry for the violation! As a kickers dad I am always looking for help and tools which is why this discussion caught my attention. And yes, if anyone buys one I WILL send you a commission, (no kidding) respond to my e-mail address. Again, sorry for the violation.
As to the lineman. Kickers as a whole are pretty well respected and accepted by the team. Most see themselves as football players first and kickers second. Jay Feely (Atl. NYGiants and now Miami) kicker, is considered one of the Hardest workers in the weight room! ALSO, most kickers are the top scorers on the team. ;)
Then there are kickers like Matt Bahr when he was with the Giants. He saved more than one touchdown by knowing how to tackle and taking pride in working on it. He said playing for Joe Paterno everyone had to learn how to tackle, even kickers and punters.
Then there are the Garo Yapremian's and Gramatica brother's of the world.
Quote from: Union89 on June 22, 2007, 02:47:50 PM
Just watched the beginning of that video...... As an old offensive lineman, if that thing were at practice we would take it from the kicker and screw around with it pre-practice. I for one would have broken my leg trying to kick the ball and jump over that thing. Probably works great.....just dangerous for fat kids.
for as much abuse as kickers took from the other players... everyone was always tying to out punt & kick eachother before practice started.
I always wondered what the life of an NFL kicker would be like... maybe something like this
http://deadspin.com/sports/jeff-reed/
This (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2007-09-03-time-football_N.htm) addresses the effect of the rules revisions on Division I-A games in Week 1.
FWIW.
With this new rule where do they spot the ball if it is kicked out of bounds?
The new rule places the ball at the 35 yrd line, or as stated in the rules, 35 yards from where the team kicked off from.
Now that the season is complete, did the decision to move kick offs back have the expected impact? or unexpected consequences? Positive or negative?
don't know what the actual return stats were, but at DePauw, it seemd as though they did a pretty good job on kick offs...had a kicker who could get it deep pretty consistently, so i don't know that starting field position for opponents was that dramatically different...
There is already a thread with this exact same name: new kick off rule (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=5274.0)
Asked elsewhere, intended for here:
Quote from: D3_DPUFan on December 12, 2007, 09:38:38 PM
Now that the season is complete, did the decision to move kick offs back have the expected impact? or unexpected consequences? Positive or negative?
Quote from: D3_DPUFan on December 13, 2007, 06:58:35 AM
don't know what the actual return stats were, but at DePauw, it seemd as though they did a pretty good job on kick offs...had a kicker who could get it deep pretty consistently, so i don't know that starting field position for opponents was that dramatically different...
Quote from: K-Mack on December 19, 2007, 02:36:11 AM
There is already a thread with this exact same name: new kick off rule (http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=5274.0)
Merged!
;)
Hall of Fame for a reason, my friend.
I just read in the latest ESPN The Magazine, that there were over 1700 more kickoff returns beacuse of the new rule, and that the starting field position went from around the 25 yard line, to around the 30 yard line, and the liklihood of a kickoff returned for a touchdown went from 0.9% to 1.1%. They referred to this as an NCAA stat, so it does not specifically say whether or not this was for all divisions.
Significant difference? I'll let you make the call.
Quote from: retagent on December 27, 2007, 09:58:01 AM
I just read in the latest ESPN The Magazine, that there were over 1700 more kickoff returns because of the new rule, and that the starting field position went from around the 25 yard line, to around the 30 yard line, and the likelihood of a kickoff returned for a touchdown went from 0.9% to 1.1%. They referred to this as an NCAA stat, so it does not specifically say whether or not this was for all divisions.
Significant difference? I'll let you make the call.
+1 for the find! :) Do you have the link?
Analyzing the factoids, for the two seasons, we need total number of kickoffs, and total number of kickoff returns.
Is the increase in kickoffs returned for a TD the function of more returns attempted?
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 27, 2007, 10:09:11 AM
Quote from: retagent on December 27, 2007, 09:58:01 AM
I just read in the latest ESPN The Magazine, that there were over 1700 more kickoff returns because of the new rule, and that the starting field position went from around the 25 yard line, to around the 30 yard line, and the likelihood of a kickoff returned for a touchdown went from 0.9% to 1.1%. They referred to this as an NCAA stat, so it does not specifically say whether or not this was for all divisions.
Significant difference? I'll let you make the call.
+1 for the find! :) Do you have the link?
Analyzing the factoids, for the two seasons, we need total number of kickoffs, and total number of kickoff returns.
Is the increase in kickoffs returned for a TD the function of more returns attempted?
I wonder if the 1700 extra returns are about a .2% increase from the returns the previous season. You are right Ralph, we need the numbers from both seasons to really analyze this.
Sorry, I can't provide a link. I get the Hard copy of the magazine. I tried to google, and found you need to log on as a subscriber. It's actually my son's subscription, so if he is an account holder, I have no password.
Quote from: Knightstalker on December 27, 2007, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 27, 2007, 10:09:11 AM
Quote from: retagent on December 27, 2007, 09:58:01 AM
I just read in the latest ESPN The Magazine, that there were over 1700 more kickoff returns because of the new rule, and that the starting field position went from around the 25 yard line, to around the 30 yard line, and the likelihood of a kickoff returned for a touchdown went from 0.9% to 1.1%. They referred to this as an NCAA stat, so it does not specifically say whether or not this was for all divisions.
Significant difference? I'll let you make the call.
+1 for the find! :) Do you have the link?
Analyzing the factoids, for the two seasons, we need total number of kickoffs, and total number of kickoff returns.
Is the increase in kickoffs returned for a TD the function of more returns attempted?
I wonder if the 1700 extra returns are about a .2% increase from the returns the previous season. You are right Ralph, we need the numbers from both seasons to really analyze this.
Man,
I really wanted some numbers regarding the effect on overall scoring for Part I of the year in review, but I abandoned my efforts after they initially proved fruitless.
This is the type of stuff we would have time to track down and bang out if we were full-time. :(