Yeah...this has been done very well out on the East and South board so I figure we should knock this around out west. I won't go into great detail but give you my 10 ten list:
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Of course I'm putting Linfield on the top with such a great offense, but 2003 SJU did knock off Mount, and 1999 PLU did with 5 games on the road in their pasting of Rowan.
Nice job, Wildcat11.
Wildcat, I would switch the 2003 SJU team for the 2004 Linfield team. SJU's beating MUC in the Stagg was an "upset". MUC had been on an incredible roll prior to this. I think that the SJU loss makes the UMHB win over MUC easier.
The "infallibility factor" had been breached by the Johnnies the year before.
Otherwise, I like the list. You have five different teams same as the South. I think that the West is the toughest region, tho'.
'03 Wartburg trumps 2000 Central. That was a heck of a game in Oregon.
That '03 Wartburg team was probably the best IIAC team since Simpson made the Semis in 96.
It remains the only time that Mount Union has lost by more than 12 points since 1992. I would go with St. John's, too.
Nice list.
Look what I've started! I agree that you can have pretty good arguments with these lists, well except in the north. :)
Take off the purple shades WC11. 24-6 over the Juggernaut. Case closed. The powers that be have spoken.
I agree, that SJU team was amazing. Good to see Central thrown in there although 03 Wburg has a legitimate argument. That PLU team was pretty stellar as well! Not knocking Linfield though.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 11, 2007, 08:25:48 PM
It remains the only time that Mount Union has lost by more than 12 points since 1992. I would go with St. John's, too.
A big reason why I went with Linfield over SJU (besides the fact I'm a Linfield honk) is that the 2003 Linfield team went into SJU and gave the future champs a game to the wire (7 pt loss) and I would say the 2004 'Cats were much more explosive. Besides the Stagg nobody even came even close to the 'Cats during the 2004 playoffs.
I will admit that beating Mount holds a lot of weight but I think 2004 Linfield was the better team.
I can see 2003 Wart over the 2000 Dutch.
Quote from: wildcat11 on July 12, 2007, 01:41:56 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 11, 2007, 08:25:48 PM
It remains the only time that Mount Union has lost by more than 12 points since 1992. I would go with St. John's, too.
A big reason why I went with Linfield over SJU (besides the fact I'm a Linfield honk) is that the 2003 Linfield team went into SJU and gave the future champs a game to the wire (7 pt loss) and I would say the 2004 'Cats were much more explosive. Besides the Stagg nobody even came even close to the 'Cats during the 2004 playoffs.
I will admit that beating Mount holds a lot of weight but I think 2004 Linfield was the better team.
I can see 2003 Wart over the 2000 Dutch.
I am using the same logic for the Linfield/SJU comparison. In the Stagg, Linfield could not put away UMHB. UMHB defeated MUC on the road by rushing the football in the fourth quarter. UMHB shut down the "explosive" Linfield offense for most of 59 minutes. Besides that first Linfield drive, UMHB outgains Linfield.
The
muffled punt attempt (http://www.odaconline.com/staggbowl/game04.htm) was the reason for the final Linfield score. It was a special teams play that won the game. :)
I think that the 2003 SJU team is better than the 2004 Linfield team. In fact, I think that you are making the case for the 2003 Linfield team to be better than the 2004 Linfield team! :o ;)
Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 12, 2007, 02:11:54 AM
UMHB shut down the "explosive" Linfield offense for most of 59 minutes. Besides that first Linfield drive, UMHB outgains Linfield.
Ralph I would say they contained Linfield for 29 minutes....Linfield did put up 21 points and 334 yards up in the 1st half. Linfield's defense wasn't too bad in that game either. ;)
I'd bet my house vs TDT's cot at the YMCA that the '04 Cats would down the 03 Johns.
Quote from: wildcat11 on July 12, 2007, 11:17:54 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on July 12, 2007, 02:11:54 AM
UMHB shut down the "explosive" Linfield offense for most of 59 minutes. Besides that first Linfield drive, UMHB outgains Linfield.
Ralph I would say they contained Linfield for 29 minutes....Linfield did put up 21 points and 334 yards up in the 1st half. Linfield's defense wasn't too bad in that game either. ;)
I'd bet my house vs TDT's cot at the YMCA that the '04 Cats would down the 03 Johns.
+1, wildcat. I had forgotten about the adjustments that UMHB makes at half time. That is even more impressive. Linfield has one 10-yd drive for the TD and little else for the rest of the game.
The quality of the Stagg Bowls (with the exception of the "Riverwalk Walk-over" in 2002) have been outstanding.
Let's really push the Nielsen's this year.
1. 2003 SJU (Champs)
2. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
8. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Going in to the 2003 game, very few people (many SJU fans not wearing kilts included) didn't give SJU a chance against the mighty Mount. SJU '03 remains the only team to ever beat MUC(k) in the Stagg and to hold them to single digit points in a Stagg. Their next lowest scoring output in a Stagg? 2000 vs SJU. ;D
If I recall before the 2003 Stagg, the OAC board was all atwitter about how that MUC team would rank with the all-time great Mount teams and how the 2000 10-7 game was a bit of a fluke. Most of the Ohio folks had that 2003 team in the top two or three.
... and then SJU's undersized d-line had Larry Kinnard and crew holding on for dear life.
If Linfield's '04 13-victory season had included a head-to-head matchup with MUC, 11's argument might have a little more weight against SJU's 14 wins and the end of MUC streaks (55 games and three national championships).
#4 - No question the '00 Johnnies had a heck of a Stagg Bowl. But IIRC, they lost once or twice in the regular season and barely eeked out a few playoff games (OT versus the Lutes). Would they win a head-to-head versus number 5-9 on your list? Personally, I think at least #5 was better and maybe one or two others.
The victory over Mt. Union thing is kind of a sticking point in figuring the top spot. I've never believed that the '99 Lutes (as impressive as they were) could have mopped the floor with the Purple Raiders like they did with Rowan. It would have been a totally different game.
EDIT: Let me clarify my statement regarding the 2000 Johnnies above. I still think the 2005 Warhawks (#5 on the list) were better. But that's probably it. In my argument about spots 6-9, I was mistaken about two things. 1 - the Johnnies only lost once that year before the Stagg (I was thinking of 2001 when they dropped two right out of the gates) and 2 - I was thinking that was one of MUC's 'less impressive' teams that they hung with in the Stagg...but after reviewing Mount's other scores that year...that doesn't really hold up either.
Meanwhile, the 2003 Johnnies vs. 2004 Wildcats would be one for the ages. Maybe make 'em play the '99 Lutes and '05 Warhawks in semifinal pairings?
Quote from: d-train on July 23, 2007, 07:08:13 PM
Maybe make 'em play the '99 Lutes and '05 Warhawks in semifinal pairings?
If you like. But the '05 Warhawks were much better coached than the '99 Profs. :)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 24, 2007, 12:27:00 AM
Quote from: d-train on July 23, 2007, 07:08:13 PM
Maybe make 'em play the '99 Lutes and '05 Warhawks in semifinal pairings?
If you like. But the '05 Warhawks were much better coached than the '99 Profs. :)
Pat, I totally agree...but you gotta use the 'sunglasses' smiley when you throw a dig at Keeler & Co. 8)
Hah! My bad. 8)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 24, 2007, 12:27:00 AM
Quote from: d-train on July 23, 2007, 07:08:13 PM
Maybe make 'em play the '99 Lutes and '05 Warhawks in semifinal pairings?
If you like. But the '05 Warhawks were much better coached than the '99 Profs. :)
My son's Pop Warner football team is better coached than the Profs. KC and His Sunshine Boys thought they'd won the title in Alliance. Someone forgot to tell them they had to play PLU the next week.
I know people told them. Doesn't mean they listened.
1. 2003 SJU (Champs, outsmarted LINFIELD)
2. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
3. 2004 LINFIELD (Champs, Qb fell from the sky, could score if you turned your head)
4. 1999 PLU (Champs, never saw them but entertaining reading)
5. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away)
6. 2006 UWW
7. 2002 SJU (beat 'CATS at home but fell short to the River Walk QB)
8. 2005 LINFIELD (Been in Stagg Bowl again if a hero runner emerged w/ UWW )
9. 2003 LINFIELD (peaked against 03 champs)
10. 2000 Central (why not?)
DOC, how about one degree of Kevin Bacon LINFIELD 'CATS to evaluate West Region Football!
1. 2003 SJU (Champs, outsmarted LINFIELD)
2. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 West Region Seed, LINFIELD, on the road; Stagg Runner up)
3. 2004 LINFIELD (Champs, QB fell from the sky, could score if you turned your head)
4. 1999 PLU (Champs, never saw them but entertaining reading. They beat LINFIELD 56-23 in the regular season.)
5. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from winning the Stagg after beating a Central team that had beaten LINFIELD.)
6. 2006 UWW (Probably would have been rated more highly if they had beaten LINFIELD )
7. 2002 SJU (beat 'CATS at home but fell short to the River Walk QB)
8. 2005 LINFIELD (Been in Stagg Bowl again if a hero runner emerged w/ UWW )
9. 2003 LINFIELD (peaked against 03 champs)
10. 2000 Central (why not? They beat LINFIELD 20-17 in the first round!)
:D ;D ;)
Thanks again! :D
Quote from: D O.C. on July 27, 2007, 09:25:35 PM
1. 2003 SJU (Champs, outsmarted LINFIELD)
2. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
3. 2004 LINFIELD (Champs, Qb fell from the sky, could score if you turned your head)
D O.C.,
Am I going to have to ask you to turn in your Wildcat card? To put a team that did not win the Stagg Bowl over the number 1 West Region team of the d3.com era is borderline criminal!
Much thought and self-flagellation, my man.
Reasoning (?!) is they beat us at home in clear weather with all those points.
Give me a few more seasons and I'm sure my revisionism may kick in.
As long as we're dining at the Dead Horse Cafe...Stagg MVP Jenkins with his one hand catch on the swing pass coupled with the Db quitting on the TD and we'd have had to come up with some more points some way.
Perhaps I'm setting the bar high for this season.
(post script) I got to put you to 400 for starting this thread
Quote from: D O.C. on July 27, 2007, 09:25:35 PM
1. 2003 SJU (Champs, outsmarted LINFIELD)
2. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
3. 2004 LINFIELD (Champs, Qb fell from the sky, could score if you turned your head)
4. 1999 PLU (Champs, never saw them but entertaining reading)
5. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away)
6. 2006 UWW
7. 2002 SJU (beat 'CATS at home but fell short to the River Walk QB)
8. 2005 LINFIELD (Been in Stagg Bowl again if a hero runner emerged w/ UWW )
9. 2003 LINFIELD (peaked against 03 champs)
10. 2000 Central (why not?)
+kama to you now and for days to come!! ;)
Easy on him, WC11, he can't help that he's a Hawks fan now any more than I can help being a Cats fan! ;D
Quote from: wildcat11 on July 11, 2007, 07:54:17 PM
Yeah...this has been done very well out on the East and South board so I figure we should knock this around out west. I won't go into great detail but give you my 10 ten list:
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Of course I'm putting Linfield on the top with such a great offense, but 2003 SJU did knock off Mount, and 1999 PLU did with 5 games on the road in their pasting of Rowan.
Just reading this for the first time, but man I think you could debate that 1-2-3 til you're blue in the face, and same with the 4-5-6. Those Whitewater teams were as good as any I've seen.
Will read on, I can see already there's been some good debate.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 11, 2007, 08:25:48 PM
It remains the only time that Mount Union has lost by more than 12 points since 1992. I would go with St. John's, too.
I think I agree there, but what about 1999 PLU as No. 1?
Well, great discussion, I've read most of it so far and lots of great points to consider.
I might move one of the UWWs in at 4 ... why do people think '05 UWW was definitely better than '06? Because of the Stagg scores vs. MUC? Other tight playoff scores?
'06 UWW did it without Beaver for 5 games and both took a pretty tough road to the Stagg.
I guess '05 did win at Linfield. That's significant.
'00 SJU wasn't bad either.
This is really a heck of a bunch of decisions to make.
Seriously though, no St. Norbert?
(uncalled for?)
Quote from: K-Mack on August 01, 2007, 02:33:13 AM
Well, great discussion, I've read most of it so far and lots of great points to consider.
I might move one of the UWWs in at 4 ... why do people think '05 UWW was definitely better than '06? Because of the Stagg scores vs. MUC? Other tight playoff scores?
'06 UWW did it without Beaver for 5 games and both took a pretty tough road to the Stagg.
I guess '05 did win at Linfield. That's significant.
'00 SJU wasn't bad either.
This is really a heck of a bunch of decisions to make.
Seriously though, no St. Norbert?
(uncalled for?)
My 2 cents on why I think the 05 UWW team was better than 06 and it's got nothing to do with the Stagg score. The 05 team was a well oiled offensive machine. They were clicking on all cylinders from the first game. Great execution and they seemed to be able to score at will, passing or rushing, and special teams and the defense were just as outstanding. No weaknesses and thanks to no significant injuries, they got better every game and once their confidence grew, they just rolled through the season until they hit the brick wall that is MUC. I believe their road to the Stagg was harder than 06. Thanks to the NCAA for leaving the West Region loaded, they had to beat #3 SJU and then go on the road to take on the defending champs, #1 Linfield. I felt all along that our best shot at MUC was in 05. 06 was a much more challenging year with injuries to many key players and the team, while getting it done, stuggled much more at times. They also enjoyed home field for all play-off games. But, hey, maybe the fact that they struggled more and had to overcome more adversity and still ended up at the same place at the end of the year, (and did it with a target on their backs,) should weigh heavy for that team to be considered better as K-Mack has pointed out. All subjective and debatable. It is really an honor for both teams to be considered for this list.
I still like D.O.C.'s top three................... ;)
Something got me thinking about where the four Carroll College NAIA championship teams (2002-2005) would rank on this list of top West Region teams. Would they hold the top four spots? Be in the middle somewhere? There's just so little evidence to accurately gauge the level of play.
Not sure if you want (or care) about an opinion from Ohio, but here's my thoughts on the best west team ever. Please keep in mind the only time I saw any of these teams actually play was the Stagg Bowl, but here's my unwanted opinion anyway ;D:
2003 SJU - only team to handle MUC in last 15+ years / Blake Elliott was by far the best player in D3 that year (and one of the best ever) and was The Difference in the Stagg that won it for SJU. In previous MUC/SJU games, MUC had the best individual player. Not in 2003. And it wasn't even close.
All other spots are open to debate, but not #1. The following is just random thoughts (or lack thereof) and shouldn't be considered a listing in order.
The team I'm not sure where to rank is '05 WWW. From a pure potential standpoint, I'd put the '05 WWW team way up the list. I'm stilll not sure how that team with such great size/speed defensively and offense diversity lost to a MUC team that was very young, inconsistent and hurt by significant injuries. Production wise, I'd put them middle of the pack from losing to a decent MUC team but that contrasts their drilling of SJU and the win at Linfield. So I still don't know where to put them.
'04 Linfield is a "sexy" pick because of Brett Elliott at QB, but their showing against MHB in the Stagg was less than impressive in my eyes. MHB was a very solid team, but they weren't supposed to be competitive with Linfield. I also have a real hard to placing '04 Linfield above '05 WWW since they lost to them with the same team that won the championship in '04. I know each season is different, but a young '05 WWW team shouldn't go on the road to the defending and senior dominated Champs and win. That has to put WWW ahead of Linfield.
'99 PLU gets a bump from blasting Rowan in the Stagg, but KC Keeler and Company made a habit out of pissing down their leg in the Stagg. So I have a hard time believing that PLU was really that much better than the rest of D3 even though the Stagg was a blowout. Especially when you factor in that Keeler thought the only team in America that was a legit threat was MUC and forgot to show up in Salem, VA. No doubt PLU was a great team on a mission, but their Stagg win isn't anywhere close to SJU's Stagg win due to the opposing coach.
'06 WWW - on the plus side of the ledger, they returned everyone from '05 and was no longer in awe of being in the ESPN spotlight, played the season with the bullseye opposed to sneaking up on Linfield like '05, but was handled rather easily in the Stagg. Injury to Beaver mid-season should have made them better. Mitigating factor here is that the '06 MUC team was much, MUCH better than the '05 MUC team. So I'd put '06 WWW a spot or two ahead of '05 WWW, but still can't decide where to place them on the overall list.
'00 SJU - very good team that was well coached. Played an excellent game in Salem, but I came away from that game thinking that their best shot at MUC was that specific game. Which is the exact opposite of how I felt about the '05 WWW/MUC game as I kind of thought MUC stole one and probably wouldn't if they played again.
If I had to rank them, I'd go as such though I'm not real confident in anything past #1:
1. 2003 SJU
2. 2006 WWW
3. 2005 WWW
4. 2004 Linfield
5. 1999 PLU
6. 2000 SJU
I put WWW ahead of Linfield simply based on their win at Linfield in '05. If that game was a "lucky" win for WWW, then move Linfield to #2 and shift the two WWW teams to #3 and #4.
Quote from: hscoach on August 08, 2007, 01:07:30 PM
'04 Linfield is a "sexy" pick because of Brett Elliott at QB, but their showing against MHB in the Stagg was less than impressive in my eyes. MHB was a very solid team, but they weren't supposed to be competitive with Linfield. I also have a real hard to placing '04 Linfield above '05 WWW since they lost to them with the same team that won the championship in '04. I know each season is different, but a young '05 WWW team shouldn't go on the road to the defending and senior dominated Champs and win. That has to put WWW ahead of Linfield.
The biggest change from the 05 Linfield team to the 04 Linfield team was two very good running backs (Thomas Ford and 04 Stagg MVP Riley Jenkins), also Linfield didn't return some key defensive players that played a huge roll in Linfield's defense coming on at the end of the 04 season and in winning the Stagg (Kelley Bertrand game winning sack, Zach Flemming's punt block, Eric Hillison's standout defensive performance)
If '05 Linfield had Ford and Jenkins in the backfield then Whitwater is only making one trip to the Stagg....IMO.
I don't think any team can be ranked above team's that actually win the Stagg no matter who they play.
Ford, Jenkins (who chose to pass up 1 more year eligibility) and GEORGE CARTER, let's not forget.
Where am I finding the time to compare and contrast this stuff? Ah well, I got out into the surf today at least:
LINFIELD 2004
SCORING....................... 650 256
Points Per Game............. 50.0 19.7
TOTAL OFFENSE................. 6641 4658
Total Plays................. 906 954
3RD-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 83/165 74/210
3rd-Down Pct................ 50% 35%
SACKS BY-YARDS................ 29-184 13-75
UWW 2006
SCORING....................... 542 181
Points Per Game............. 36.1 12.1
TOTAL OFFENSE................. 6048 3535
Total Plays................. 1025 938
3RD-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 77/201 61/221
3rd-Down Pct................ 38% 28%
SACKS BY-YARDS................ 45-304 11-65
I am still at it.
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 08, 2007, 02:04:33 PM
I don't think any team can be ranked above team's that actually win the Stagg no matter who they play.
Thanks for the insight on the players Linfield lost from '04. That's info I didn't have.
I do however, disagree with your statement above. Case in point, the 1992 MUC team that lost to UW-LaCrosse (29-24) in the semi-finals was better than half the MUC teams that won a title. In fact, most old-timer MUC folks might rank that non-championship team as one of the top 5 MUC teams of all time.
Quote from: hscoach on August 08, 2007, 01:07:30 PM
Not sure if you want (or care) about an opinion from Ohio, but here's my thoughts on the best west team ever. Please keep in mind the only time I saw any of these teams actually play was the Stagg Bowl, but here's my unwanted opinion anyway ;D:
I put WWW ahead of Linfield simply based on their win at Linfield in '05. If that game was a "lucky" win for WWW, then move Linfield to #2 and shift the two WWW teams to #3 and #4.
I appreciate the insight from, "an Ohioan." IMHO, the only thing, "lucky," about UWW's win at Linfield was that after 11 lead changes, they were the ones ahead at the buzzer. Two equally talented teams!
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 08, 2007, 02:04:33 PM
I don't think any team can be ranked above team's that actually win the Stagg no matter who they play.
Got to agree with hscoach on this one, WC11. Can't ignore Stagg Bowl opponents when trying to compare apples and oranges. A championship just means a team is the best that season. Doesn't mean that they can't get their a$$ kicked by a #2 from another year.
Quote from: footballfan413 on August 08, 2007, 07:30:40 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 08, 2007, 02:04:33 PM
I don't think any team can be ranked above team's that actually win the Stagg no matter who they play.
Got to agree with hscoach on this one, WC11. Can't ignore Stagg Bowl opponents when trying to compare apples and oranges. A championship just means a team is the best that season. Doesn't mean that they can't get their a$ kicked by a #2 from another year.
I think I rushed my statement there...however...there's no number 2 team in the west region the past 10 years that was going to beat that 2004 Linfield team.
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 09, 2007, 10:50:50 AM
Quote from: footballfan413 on August 08, 2007, 07:30:40 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on August 08, 2007, 02:04:33 PM
I don't think any team can be ranked above team's that actually win the Stagg no matter who they play.
Got to agree with hscoach on this one, WC11. Can't ignore Stagg Bowl opponents when trying to compare apples and oranges. A championship just means a team is the best that season. Doesn't mean that they can't get their a$ kicked by a #2 from another year.
I think I rushed my statement there...however...there's no number 2 team in the west region the past 10 years that was going to beat that 2004 Linfield team.
I will leave this up to those who have far more knowledge and expertise regarding the elite teams before 05 than I do. But if the 04 team was the, "Brett Elliott Show," I witnessed in 05, with a running game...................I sure wouldn't doubt your claim! :D ;) ;D
If this year was the best Mt. Union team in 10 years, then I suggest the win today moves the 07 UWW Warhawks into the #1 position.
Well, if you go back to the d3 archives, prior to the Stagg Bowl they were also debating if the 2003 Mount team was the best one ever. Checking Mount's stats, that year they outscored opponents by an average of 50-6 entering the Stagg, this year it was 54-5, so pretty much a wash as far as dominance. And they lost by 18 to an unbeaten SJU team and were held to six points. And that was a team that had won a record 55 straight. Still think you gotta put the Johnnies ahead of this year's one-loss WW team. Of course that's a totally biased observation.
QuoteIf this year was the best Mt. Union team in 10 years, then I suggest the win today moves the 07 UWW Warhawks into the #1 position.
+1 sound logic
Oh! Wait! who would that move down a notch?
I think it's just great that we have four different west region teams (Linfield, PLU, SJU, UWW) that we can debate over.
However, the thing that 03 SJU and 04 Linfield have over 07 UWW is zero losses during their championship seasons.
Go West Region!
It certainly Leaves No Doubt as to which is the strongest region overall.
Quote from: wildcat11 on December 16, 2007, 03:30:35 PM
I think it's just great that we have four different west region teams (Linfield, PLU, SJU, UWW) that we can debate over.
However, the thing that 03 SJU and 04 Linfield have over 07 UWW is zero losses during their championship seasons.
Go West Region!
Quote from: coco on December 16, 2007, 03:39:52 PM
It certainly Leaves No Doubt as to which is the strongest region overall.
I agree. MUC has five championships. Capital has another appearance in the Semis. So much for the North.
The East has one appearance in the Finals. (Can we say monkey-stomp?)
The South has seen three teams in three appearances in the Finals.
I believe that the West has it! :)
This board will need to be revisited, pending this year's playoffs.
The Top 10 does not include 2007 UWW, and Willamette and UWW look strong again in 2008!
From a neutral perspective and someone who has followed division 3 football pretty closely the last couple years I don't think there was a team better than the 2004 Linfield squad. Just deep with talent.
I witnessed them thrash some pretty good Oxy teams in 2004 and 2005.
Quote from: Tiger Shark on November 24, 2008, 11:43:22 PM
From a neutral perspective and someone who has followed division 3 football pretty closely the last couple years I don't think there was a team better than the 2004 Linfield squad. Just deep with talent.
I witnessed them thrash some pretty good Oxy teams in 2004 and 2005.
There was one team that was pretty close - the 2004 Mary Hardin Baylor team! :) ;)
[science]2004 Linfield is the greatest team ever.[/science]
Roocru,
The 2004 Stagg was our closest margin of victory, I'll grant you that, but Linfield that year had an extra special power.
I've had respect for UMHB ever since.
QuoteThe 2004 Stagg was our closest margin of victory
Aw, collective fleas. Just stopped to scratch, that's all.
Only game where if you turned your head to talk to your neighbor, they didn't come up with a huge play.
Quote from: Tiger Shark on November 24, 2008, 11:43:22 PM
From a neutral perspective and someone who has followed division 3 football pretty closely the last couple years I don't think there was a team better than the 2004 Linfield squad. Just deep with talent.
I witnessed them thrash some pretty good Oxy teams in 2004 and 2005.
1999 Pacific Lutheran team was the best team in the West I've ever seen or heard of...
That PLU team took 2nd in the NWC that season to Willamette but winning every playoff game on the road was an incredible run.
Quote from: wildcat11 on December 09, 2008, 01:35:47 PM
That PLU team took 2nd in the NWC that season to Willamette but winning every playoff game on the road was an incredible run.
If I recall correctly, they didn't just win every game, but they won every game BIG.
Quote from: Walston Hoover on December 12, 2008, 07:04:11 PM
Quote from: wildcat11 on December 09, 2008, 01:35:47 PM
That PLU team took 2nd in the NWC that season to Willamette but winning every playoff game on the road was an incredible run.
If I recall correctly, they didn't just win every game, but they won every game BIG.
No, they actually had to come from behind in the first round to beat Willamette in Salem, Or. and they only beat SJU by 10 on the road. Regardless, it was a magical run by the 'Lutes.
Quote from: Walston Hoover on December 12, 2008, 07:04:11 PM
If I recall correctly, they didn't just win every game, but they won every game BIG.
Yeah man. Totally crushed Wartburg, Trinity, Rowan, and Linfield on the road. The best west team evahr! Only team close was the '98 edition. 8)
so what would everyone's top teams look like as of right now...or would you rather wait until after this weekends game? the 07 and 08 warhawks have to be in this dicussion imo!
Quote from: T_Unit14 on December 15, 2008, 09:01:28 PM
so what would everyone's top teams look like as of right now...or would you rather wait until after this weekends game? the 07 and 08 warhawks have to be in this dicussion imo!
UWW has had great teams and deserve to be in the conversation but each of their teams have had at least one loss. 2003 SJU and 2004 Linfield did not. I think that is something that cannot be disputed. Besides, I'd take the 03 J's, 04 'Cats, and 1999 Lutes over any of the great UWW teams over the past 3-4 years.
Quote from: wildcat11 on December 15, 2008, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: T_Unit14 on December 15, 2008, 09:01:28 PM
so what would everyone's top teams look like as of right now...or would you rather wait until after this weekends game? the 07 and 08 warhawks have to be in this dicussion imo!
UWW has had great teams and deserve to be in the conversation but each of their teams have had at least one loss. 2003 SJU and 2004 Linfield did not. I think that is something that cannot be disputed. Besides, I'd take the 03 J's, 04 'Cats, and 1999 Lutes over any of the great UWW teams over the past 3-4 years.
While I'm not arguing that they were the best I'd like to point out that the only blemish on '07 UWW was to a d2 school.
I'm partial to the '80 and '81 PLU teams but they are outside the d3 era parameters of this discussion.
OK, it's been awhile. Still a good topic. Who's going to get moved off the list after the 2009 Stagg?
Per Gig Harbor Cat on Saturday's Game:
"Thats right 78
The Cats will go KABOOOM on on your warhawks
This one is in the bank baby"
Apparently the 09 Cats are squarely in this discussion and may be number one on the list. Only a team for the ages could breed such confidence against a team that has accomplished as much as UWW has. Move over 05 Cats, there's a new sheriff in town!
Wildcat 11 - I am moving that team that just beat LINFIELD and Mount Union on consecutive Saturdays to the top of your list.
What say you?
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Goodbye Central.
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2009, 03:07:56 PM
Wildcat 11 - I am moving that team that just beat LINFIELD and Mount Union on consecutive Saturdays to the top of your list.
What say you?
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Goodbye Central.
"That" team was for sure Whitewater's best ever...I guess that's easy to say since it's the first time they went undefeated. ;D
Time for another re-tooling...saying good-bye to 2003 Linfield...adding 2010 UWW...but just where? ;)
I think that the 2010 UWW team probably fits in at #2.
Just how many quality QB's can one team have, QB's that can execute the offense to win games?
Of course having a Levell Coppage, helps too.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 20, 2010, 11:26:50 PM
I think that the 2010 UWW team probably fits in at #2.
Just how many quality QB's can one team have, QB's that can execute the offense to win games?
Of course having a Levell Coppage, helps too.
I think the 2009 UWW team was their best team ever. They basically had the same team as 2010, but the 09 team had much more depth at WR, along with an All-American (honorable mention) QB taking the snaps with Blanchard as his back-up. Not to mention the 09 team had the best FG kicker in NCAA history.
When ranking UWW's championship teams, I think it should be the following:
2009
2010
2007
As far as where they fit in this Top 10 list...i'm not sure.
as an outsider that only saw them in Salem, I'd rank the UWW teams as follows:
1. 2007
2. 2009
3. 2010
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 20, 2009, 07:50:40 PM
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2009, 03:07:56 PM
Wildcat 11 - I am moving that team that just beat LINFIELD and Mount Union on consecutive Saturdays to the top of your list.
What say you?
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Goodbye Central.
"That" team was for sure Whitewater's best ever...I guess that's easy to say since it's the first time they went undefeated. ;D
I think that DOC needs to pull up a new "Best 10".
I cannot imagine any non-Stagg participants who should be in the West Region Best 10.
Ralph, in your honor I'll put non-participating McMurray at # 10. ;)
It's not my list, Ralph, it belonged to Wildcat11.
I am thinking about all 3 UWW team there as well.
Ranking the UWW championship teams is a tough task.
HSCoach's ranking of the 2007 team has merit when you consider the Mt offense they had to stop. Micheli, Kmic and Garcon- wow.
2009 definately had the best passing team as they were loaded with receivers and a great qb.
2010 was different in many ways. Not explosive on offense and without the big name defensive players. However, this team was as mentally tough as it gets- and I believe it had the toughest road to the championship.
I like em all the same.
Quote from: D O.C. on December 22, 2010, 06:26:01 PM
Ralph, in your honor I'll put non-participating McMurry at # 10. ;)
It's not my list, Ralph, it belonged to Wildcat11.
I am thinking about all 3 UWW team there as well.
My bad! Sorry wildcat11!
Thanks, D O.C.
I think that we should compete well next year. It will be the 3rd year under the Air Raid and the 3-3-5 defense. We gave away the UMHB game, lost to ETBU on the road (a 330 mile road trip) in the last minute the next weekend; lost the HSU again >:(, and then our 3rd string QB almost beat Louisiana College. (On the last play of the game, we maintain that the LC DB was holding the jersey of our WR in a style that some futbol defender from AC Milan would admire.)
emma17: Was great BSing with you before and after the Stagg. Please check your PM's.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 23, 2010, 12:37:22 AM
Quote from: D O.C. on December 22, 2010, 06:26:01 PM
Ralph, in your honor I'll put non-participating McMurry at # 10. ;)
It's not my list, Ralph, it belonged to Wildcat11.
I am thinking about all 3 UWW team there as well.
My bad! Sorry wildcat11!
Thanks, D O.C.
I think that we should compete well next year. It will be the 3rd year under the Air Raid and the 3-3-5 defense. We gave away the UMHB game, lost to ETBU on the road (a 330 mile road trip) in the last minute the next weekend; lost the HSU again >:(, and then our 3rd string QB almost beat Louisiana College. (On the last play of the game, we maintain that the LC DB was holding the jersey of our WR in a style that some futbol defender from AC Milan would admire.)
Hey Ralph,
All I know is that I would keep 2004 Linfield #1 and the rest fall in behind. ;)
Here's a question.
Who would be the Top 10 West Region Non-AQ teams of the D3football era (i.e. Pool C)?
1999 PLU (although I'm not sure if they were technically a pool C) and 2000 SJU have to be at the top of the list. Bethel's 2010 and 2007 made the semis but I don't know who else should be in contention to really put together a proper list.
Which other non-AQ's made deep playoff runs that I'm missing?
Pacific Lutheran was a Pool B team but that is a non-AQ, so it still fits your premise. UW-Whitewater was a Pool C team in 2008, having lost to UW-Stevens Point in the regular season.
Thanks Pat.
So we've got
99 PLU Won it all
00 SJU Lost to Mount in the Stagg
08 UWW Lost to Mount in the Stagg
07 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
10 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
Was the 2004 Linfield team Pool B?
Any IIAC, WIAC, NWC schools I'm missing that should be added to this list?
Quote from: hazzben on July 20, 2011, 09:52:14 AM
Thanks Pat.
So we've got
99 PLU Won it all
00 SJU Lost to Mount in the Stagg
08 UWW Lost to Mount in the Stagg
07 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
10 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
Was the 2004 Linfield team Pool B? YES
Any IIAC, WIAC, NWC schools I'm missing that should be added to this list?
:)
So we've got the following teams as the Top Non-AQ West Region Teams in the D3football.com era:
04 Linfield Won it all
99 PLU Won it all
00 SJU Lost to Mount in the Stagg
08 UWW Lost to Mount in the Stagg
07 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
10 BU Lost to Mount in the Semis
Any others that at least made the Semis?
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 22, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 20, 2009, 07:50:40 PM
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2009, 03:07:56 PM
Wildcat 11 - I am moving that team that just beat LINFIELD and Mount Union on consecutive Saturdays to the top of your list.
What say you?
1. 2004 Linfield (Champs)
2. 2003 SJU (Champs)
3. 1999 PLU (Champs)
4. 2000 SJU (Just a FG away from Champs)
5. 2005 UWW (Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up)
6. 2006 UWW (Great run but felt the '05 team was better)
7. 2005 Linfield (Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW)
8. 2002 SJU (Defeated an excellent 'Cat team but fell short to the River Walk QB)
9. 2003 Linfield (Gave the 03 champs their toughest and closest game of the playoffs)
10. 2000 Central (Great defensive squad and wanted to mix it up a bit)
Goodbye Central.
"That" team was for sure Whitewater's best ever...I guess that's easy to say since it's the first time they went undefeated. ;D
I think that DOC needs to pull up a new "Best 10".
I cannot imagine any non-Stagg participants who should be in the West Region Best 10.
This conversation took place in December of 2010 and the new Best 10 never was established, instead the Board took a turn and worked on the top ten non-AQ teams. I think it is time we picked up the challenge of establishing a new "West Region Best 10" that considers where the 2007, 2009 and 2010 Warhawks fit. Any takers?
Sure, they came out of too big, too slow to bully every body. Let's re-do the top 10 all time.
Here's my ballot
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had.
*6. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
7. 2000 SJU - Just a FG away from Champs
8. 2006 UWW - Same team as 2005, but more experienced
9. 2005 UWW - Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up
10. 2005 Linfield - Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW
* Stagg Bowl winners
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on November 03, 2011, 04:06:15 PM
Here's my ballot
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had.
*6. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
7. 2000 SJU - Just a FG away from Champs
8. 2006 UWW - Same team as 2005, but more experienced
9. 2005 UWW - Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up
10. 2005 Linfield - Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW
* Stagg Bowl winners
Where will the 2011 champion fit in? With three in a row, hard not to place it somewhere in the top 3, pushing #10 out of the top 10, IMO.
That's fair.
I'll have nightmares of AJ's ramble with the tipped pass being the difference in that game, but so be it.
Quote from: BoBo on December 19, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on November 03, 2011, 04:06:15 PM
Here's my ballot
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had.
*6. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
7. 2000 SJU - Just a FG away from Champs
8. 2006 UWW - Same team as 2005, but more experienced
9. 2005 UWW - Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up
10. 2005 Linfield - Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW
* Stagg Bowl winners
Where will the 2011 champion fit in? With three in a row, hard not to place it somewhere in the top 3, pushing #10 out of the top 10, IMO.
I think I'd put this years UWW team at #5 actually, if we consider this solely on the basis of 1 season.
I'm just not sure they beat anyone as good as Mount was in 2003. That SJU team was loaded on D and had the all-time gamer at QB in Keating. That MUC team was supposed to have been there greatest ever going into the game and no one was even giving SJU a chance. I think that 2003 Mount team beats this years Mount team handily. So I'll give the nod to SJU 03 over UWW '11, but I'd love to actually see the matchup. And with Elliot under center Linfield was nearly unstoppable in 2004...60ish TD's is just ridiculous.
If we take into consideration the 3-peat, I'd put them at #3. It's remarkable what they've done at UWW this decade. The transition to LL has been flawless and he's got a stranglehold on a very fertile DIII recruiting area (Milwaukee/Chicagoland/Madison). They've got to replace #33 next season, but they just reload at so many positions and this continued postseason success means guys who are SR's have as many as 10-20 extra games under the belt if they are 2+yr starters. That's the kind of experience that has made UMU so good for so long. Those extra games and practices deep into December are invaluable. You give great players that kind of seasoning and it's a lethal combo.
Quote from: hazzben on December 22, 2011, 12:18:45 PM
And with Elliot under center Linfield was nearly unstoppable in 2004...60ish TD's is just ridiculous.
Ridiculous? Yes it was. http://catdomealumni.com/specials/Numbers_Elliott.html (http://catdomealumni.com/specials/Numbers_Elliott.html)
Quote from: hazzben on December 22, 2011, 12:18:45 PM
Quote from: BoBo on December 19, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on November 03, 2011, 04:06:15 PM
Here's my ballot
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had.
*6. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
7. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl
8. 2006 UWW - Same team as 2005, but more experienced
9. 2005 UWW - Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Runner up
10. 2005 Linfield - Would have been Stagg Bowl bound if not for UWW
* Stagg Bowl winners
Where will the 2011 champion fit in? With three in a row, hard not to place it somewhere in the top 3, pushing #10 out of the top 10, IMO.
I think I'd put this years UWW team at #5 actually, if we consider this solely on the basis of 1 season.
I was thinking #6, that 2007 UWW team beat a REALLY good Mount team in the Stagg Bowl.
My updated list:
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had.
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
8. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl
9. 2006 UWW - Same team as 2005, but more experienced
10. 2005 UWW - Beat #1 on the road, Stagg Bowl Runner up
Revisiting the top 10 list. I believe UST had the defense to compete with the 2005 and 2006 UWW teams. However, I'm not certain the same can be said about UST's offense. UST didn't have the "star power" like the 05 and 06 UWW offense had (Jacobs, Stanley, Beaver).
I would put this UST team just outside the top 10 (at 11th). However, I have a feeling future UST teams will be making the list of the next few seasons. Seems like it's only a matter of time for them.
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
9. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
10. 2006 UWW - Same runner's up team as 2005, but more experienced.
It was hard ranking the 2013 team so low, considering they had the fifth largest lopsided win in Stagg Bowl history. However, the team had its fair share of struggles through parts of the season though. As good as the defense was, the offense was almost non-existent in parts of some games.
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on January 02, 2014, 09:47:58 AM
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
9. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
10. 2006 UWW - Same runner's up team as 2005, but more experienced.
It was hard ranking the 2013 team so low, considering they had the fifth largest lopsided win in Stagg Bowl history. However, the team had its fair share of struggles through parts of the season though. As good as the defense was, the offense was almost non-existent in parts of some games.
I like the order. 2013 and 2011 are hard for me to rank because of the offensive performances. IMO the offensive game plans played an abnormally large role for both of these seasons. 2011 had less receiver talent but a more experienced O line and Coppage/Blanchard. The Stagg Bowl game plan was as vanilla as it gets though- so it's hard to know if they were capable of more.
2013 has more talent at receiver and probably less at RB as well as an inexperienced O line. Behrendt was solid but not great throughout season. Then the Stagg Bowl happens and it's like the horses were allowed to run. The difference in game plans between UMHB and Mt was mind blowing.
Ultimately I may rank 2013 higher because of an even better defense, more explosive special teams and an offense with more playmakers.
Not that you guys probably care one bit about my opinion, but I'd rate the 2011 team above 2013 simply because of the quality of the team they beat in the Stagg. The 2011 Mount team was very limited offensively due to missing their QB, but the rest of that team was head and shoulders above the 2013 version, especially so on defense. Looking back at the starting lineups between the 2 Mount teams, the only 2013 starters that would have supplanted a 2011 starter would be:
1. Kevin Burke over Piloto at QB (HUGE difference)
2. Sam Gonnel over Carbonell at ILB (slight advantage to Gonnel due to better pass coverage skills)
Even though the 2013 passing game was effective all season and in the Stagg, the receiving corps was simply good. The 2011 receiving corps was group of juniors that finished as the deepest/best collection of receivers in Mount history, they unfortunately didn't have someone to throw them the ball.
Put Kevin Burke at QB on the 2011 team and Mount rolls to a title. Put Matt Piloto at QB on the 2013 team and they finish 7-3 overall (7-2 in the OAC) and don't make the playoffs.
Also have to factor in the 2011 was coached by LK, not VK in his first year. Another big advantage toward 2011.
Just my 2 cents. Use or dismiss it as you see fit.
I just thought the 2011 team was able to take care of their opponents with a little more ease than the 2013 did. Seems like the 2013 overlooked a few games that got them in trouble. I didn't sense that in 2011. Plus the 2011 team beat Nate Wara on the road.
Not sure if there is a right answer, but it makes for a good off season debate.
Quote from: HScoach on January 03, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Not that you guys probably care one bit about my opinion, but I'd rate the 2011 team above 2013 simply because of the quality of the team they beat in the Stagg. The 2011 Mount team was very limited offensively due to missing their QB, but the rest of that team was head and shoulders above the 2013 version, especially so on defense. Looking back at the starting lineups between the 2 Mount teams, the only 2013 starters that would have supplanted a 2011 starter would be:
1. Kevin Burke over Piloto at QB (HUGE difference)
2. Sam Gonnel over Carbonell at ILB (slight advantage to Gonnel due to better pass coverage skills)
Even though the 2013 passing game was effective all season and in the Stagg, the receiving corps was simply good. The 2011 receiving corps was group of juniors that finished as the deepest/best collection of receivers in Mount history, they unfortunately didn't have someone to throw them the ball.
Put Kevin Burke at QB on the 2011 team and Mount rolls to a title. Put Matt Piloto at QB on the 2013 team and they finish 7-3 overall (7-2 in the OAC) and don't make the playoffs.
Also have to factor in the 2011 was coached by LK, not VK in his first year. Another big advantage toward 2011.
Just my 2 cents. Use or dismiss it as you see fit.
Your money is always welcome here.
Really it shows how much it depends upon what lens you view the teams through.
Honestly for me, I view the 2013 team as a team that, depending on the day, could be one of UWW's best ever. I know it's hard to accept that because of the offensive inconsistency, but the Stagg Bowl showed us what the team was capable of doing-as did the second and third quarters of Linfield. UWW fans watched the team from Wash U, where the offense was nothing more than 2012 all over again (nearly threw up in my mouth) all the way through the Stagg and we saw a wide variety of approaches. UWW offensively, more than any team I know, makes massive changes to its game plan in advance of a game, as opposed to changing during the game. UMHB is proof positive. No doubt UMHB's defense was tough, but here's the thing. UWW didn't even TRY to threaten them or use the receiving corp like they did vs. Mt. Look at what UWW did with Kumerow vs Mt- starting him in the backfield and motioning left or right to avoid double coverage. They didn't do that at all vs UMHB- and surely they could have at least tried it once if they felt it was necessary. They threw deep one time the entire game, in the first quarter to a wide open Huber- and they never went deep again. Surely UWW could have tried to go deep again without much risk, but they didn't.
2011 was a bit different. The first series saw a wide open UWW attack, which ended in a bad decision-interception from Blanchard. After that play UWW played very tight. UWW didn't have the receivers they had this year either. That said, the Mt defense was much tougher than this year's team- and it put heavy pressure on Blanchard all game.
Very interesting conversation and I believe a point should be made that it is hard to rank the teams so soon after the season and even then several years after. Comparing them is even harder. For me, since I did not start really following until 2009, I have to listen to everyone and do my own research on teams prior to that time. I really respect many posters opinions including those outside of the West region and I think very highly of HSCoach - always level headed and very analytical. Teams are so different year to year.
This years 2013 team is one of the most complete teams I have ever seen at UWW if you consider all three phases, especially if you weight special teams as being an equal phase. I have never seen UWW have a return game like they had this year. We have had great kickers and I would give the edge to 09 in kicking and punting over this year. As far as defense, this years team is the greatest of all the teams I have seen, although the three peat defenses were excellent. As far as offense the 09 team was hands-down the best. Then, how to compare 10, 11 and 13 on offense. Until the Stagg, I would have ranked them in this order 11, 10, 13. After the Stagg 11, 13, 10. So it is hard for me to change the ranking 02 and Emma are endorsing, even though part of me wants to really look hard at 07,11 and 13. So for now, I will go with
1. 2009 UWW
2. 2010 UWW
3. 2004 Linfield
4. 2003 SJU
5. 2007 UWW
6. 2011 UWW
7. 2013 UWW
8. 1999 PLU
9. 2000 SJU
10. 2006 UWW
WarhawkDad
Quote from: HScoach on January 03, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Not that you guys probably care one bit about my opinion, but I'd rate the 2011 team above 2013 simply because of the quality of the team they beat in the Stagg. The 2011 Mount team was very limited offensively due to missing their QB, but the rest of that team was head and shoulders above the 2013 version, especially so on defense. Looking back at the starting lineups between the 2 Mount teams, the only 2013 starters that would have supplanted a 2011 starter would be:
1. Kevin Burke over Piloto at QB (HUGE difference)
2. Sam Gonnel over Carbonell at ILB (slight advantage to Gonnel due to better pass coverage skills)
Even though the 2013 passing game was effective all season and in the Stagg, the receiving corps was simply good. The 2011 receiving corps was group of juniors that finished as the deepest/best collection of receivers in Mount history, they unfortunately didn't have someone to throw them the ball.
Put Kevin Burke at QB on the 2011 team and Mount rolls to a title. Put Matt Piloto at QB on the 2013 team and they finish 7-3 overall (7-2 in the OAC) and don't make the playoffs.
Also have to factor in the 2011 was coached by LK, not VK in his first year. Another big advantage toward 2011.
Just my 2 cents. Use or dismiss it as you see fit.
Kevin Burke was on the 2011 team..lol. I know just a freshman that year. But I watched A lot of UMU on STO that year and saw UMU against Wesley in the semis. I, for one, was glad he didn't play. You could tell he had something special even in limited duty.
Quote from: @d3jason on July 17, 2014, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: HScoach on January 03, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
Not that you guys probably care one bit about my opinion, but I'd rate the 2011 team above 2013 simply because of the quality of the team they beat in the Stagg. The 2011 Mount team was very limited offensively due to missing their QB, but the rest of that team was head and shoulders above the 2013 version, especially so on defense. Looking back at the starting lineups between the 2 Mount teams, the only 2013 starters that would have supplanted a 2011 starter would be:
1. Kevin Burke over Piloto at QB (HUGE difference)
2. Sam Gonnel over Carbonell at ILB (slight advantage to Gonnel due to better pass coverage skills)
Even though the 2013 passing game was effective all season and in the Stagg, the receiving corps was simply good. The 2011 receiving corps was group of juniors that finished as the deepest/best collection of receivers in Mount history, they unfortunately didn't have someone to throw them the ball.
Put Kevin Burke at QB on the 2011 team and Mount rolls to a title. Put Matt Piloto at QB on the 2013 team and they finish 7-3 overall (7-2 in the OAC) and don't make the playoffs.
Also have to factor in the 2011 was coached by LK, not VK in his first year. Another big advantage toward 2011.
Just my 2 cents. Use or dismiss it as you see fit.
Kevin Burke was on the 2011 team..lol. I know just a freshman that year. But I watched A lot of UMU on STO that year and saw UMU against Wesley in the semis. I, for one, was glad he didn't play. You could tell he had something special even in limited duty.
But he didn't start the game in 2011, which was the point of that post.
Ok, now that the 2014 season is over and UWW has won the Stagg Bowl, where would this 2014 team fit in the all time rankings?
No vote but they looked pretty good doing it.
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
No vote but they looked pretty good doing it.
Anyone can have an opinion on the top 10 teams during the D3football.com Era, so here is mine:
1. 2009 UWW
2. 2010 UWW
3. 2004 Linfield
4. 2003 SJU
5. 2013 UWW
6. 2014 UWW
7. 2011 UWW
8. 2007 UWW
9. 1999 PLU
10. 2000 SJU
_______________
11. 2006 UWW
After a year to think about it I have flip-flopped the 2013 and 2011 UWW teams. I really believe the offensive inconsistency we thought we saw in 2013 was more from the new offensive coaching staff and players becoming acclimated. They absolutely jelled when they needed to do so and the overall game planning in the playoffs was tremendous.
I believe the 2014 is just behind the 2013 team although this may be because Kumerow was out an extended part of the year. If he had been healthy for the whole year, I might rank them higher.
As far as offenses, I rank it in this order 2009, 2013, 2014, and for defenses 2013, 2009, 2010.
Anyone else care to jump in?
WarhawkDad
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 12:05:51 PM
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
No vote but they looked pretty good doing it.
Anyone can have an opinion on the top 10 teams during the D3football.com Era, so here is mine:
1. 2009 UWW
2. 2010 UWW
3. 2004 Linfield
4. 2003 SJU
5. 2013 UWW
6. 2014 UWW
7. 2011 UWW
8. 2017 UWW
9. 1999 PLU
10. 2000 SJU
_______________
11. 2006 UWW
After a year to think about it I have flip-flopped the 2013 and 2011 UWW teams. I really believe the offensive inconsistency we thought we saw in 2013 was more from the new offensive coaching staff and players becoming acclimated. They absolutely jelled when they needed to do so and the overall game planning in the playoffs was tremendous.
I believe the 2014 is just behind the 2013 team although this may be because Kumerow was out an extended part of the year. If he had been healthy for the whole year, I might rank them higher.
As far as offenses, I rank it in this order 2009, 2013, 2014, and for defenses 2013, 2009, 2010.
Anyone else care to jump in?
WarhawkDad
Crystal ball or just great expectation for this year's Freshman class? ;D
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 2014 UWW - Escaped a handful of games....could have easily dropped 2-3 games this season.
*9. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
10. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
Like WD, the UWW 2006 dropped out of my Top 10.
I almost forgot to update my Top 10 All Time West Teams this season :P
Quote from: MonroviaCat on December 22, 2014, 12:14:58 PM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 12:05:51 PM
Quote from: D O.C. on December 20, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
No vote but they looked pretty good doing it.
Anyone can have an opinion on the top 10 teams during the D3football.com Era, so here is mine:
1. 2009 UWW
2. 2010 UWW
3. 2004 Linfield
4. 2003 SJU
5. 2013 UWW
6. 2014 UWW
7. 2011 UWW
8. 2017 UWW
9. 1999 PLU
10. 2000 SJU
_______________
11. 2006 UWW
After a year to think about it I have flip-flopped the 2013 and 2011 UWW teams. I really believe the offensive inconsistency we thought we saw in 2013 was more from the new offensive coaching staff and players becoming acclimated. They absolutely jelled when they needed to do so and the overall game planning in the playoffs was tremendous.
I believe the 2014 is just behind the 2013 team although this may be because Kumerow was out an extended part of the year. If he had been healthy for the whole year, I might rank them higher.
As far as offenses, I rank it in this order 2009, 2013, 2014, and for defenses 2013, 2009, 2010.
Anyone else care to jump in?
WarhawkDad
Crystal ball or just great expectation for this year's Freshman class? ;D
LOL.....whoops! Just a typo! Fixed in now...but it was funny, as was your post....+k
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 2014 UWW - Escaped a handful of games....could have easily dropped 2-3 games this season.
*9. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
10. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
Like WD, the UWW 2006 dropped out of my Top 10.
I almost forgot to update my Top 10 All Time West Teams this season :P
You still have 2011 ahead of 2013......another year of reflection has not changed your opinion?
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 2014 UWW - Escaped a handful of games....could have easily dropped 2-3 games this season.
*9. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
10. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
Like WD, the UWW 2006 dropped out of my Top 10.
I almost forgot to update my Top 10 All Time West Teams this season :P
You still have 2011 ahead of 2013......another year of reflection has not changed your opinion?
Yea, very tempting considering how that Stagg Bowl turned out. But they had a few games that year were too close for comfort for me I guess. With a few exceptions, that 2011 team just plowed through the regular season and playoffs, including a shutout semifinal win against a good St. Thomas team.
Arguments could be made either way.
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 2014 UWW - Escaped a handful of games....could have easily dropped 2-3 games this season.
*9. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
10. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
Like WD, the UWW 2006 dropped out of my Top 10.
I almost forgot to update my Top 10 All Time West Teams this season :P
You still have 2011 ahead of 2013......another year of reflection has not changed your opinion?
Yea, very tempting considering how that Stagg Bowl turned out. But they had a few games that year were too close for comfort for me I guess. With a few exceptions, that 2011 team just plowed through the regular season and playoffs, including a shutout semifinal win against a good St. Thomas team.
Arguments could be made either way.
Good point and I wonder to this day if Coppage had not hurt his ankle early in the first quarter of the Stagg Bowl if UWW would have scored more that game.
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 04:51:35 PM
Quote from: WarhawkDad on December 22, 2014, 04:44:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 22, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
*1. 2009 UWW - Rush, Pass, Defend, Special Teams....this team was the best.
*2. 2010 UWW - Beat a Gagliardi trophy winner, won at NCC, at Wesley, and UMU
*3. 2004 Linfield - Best DIII QB ever?
*4. 2003 SJU - Was there anything Blake Elliot couldn't do?
*5. 2007 UWW - Gagliardi Trophy winner and best front seven that program ever had (to date).
*6. 2011 UWW - Easiest playoff road to Salem they had its seven-year run.
*7. 2013 UWW - Best Warhawk defensive team ever; Offense played great when it counted.
*8. 2014 UWW - Escaped a handful of games....could have easily dropped 2-3 games this season.
*9. 1999 PLU - Won it as a 7th seed!!!
10. 2000 SJU - Just a field goal away in the Stagg Bowl.
Like WD, the UWW 2006 dropped out of my Top 10.
I almost forgot to update my Top 10 All Time West Teams this season :P
You still have 2011 ahead of 2013......another year of reflection has not changed your opinion?
Yea, very tempting considering how that Stagg Bowl turned out. But they had a few games that year were too close for comfort for me I guess. With a few exceptions, that 2011 team just plowed through the regular season and playoffs, including a shutout semifinal win against a good St. Thomas team.
Arguments could be made either way.
Good point and I wonder to this day if Coppage had not hurt his ankle early in the first quarter of the Stagg Bowl if UWW would have scored more that game.
Plus I believe it was like 40 degrees and rainy that night...not exactly great conditions to put up big offensive numbers.
OK...now I have an opinion. Whichever teams Daryl Agpalsa helped coach should be ranked highest. ;)
The 1999 PLU team should be ranked near the top. I saw that game and those boys were on fire. I don't think many DIII teams would have beat them that day....Ask Pat Coleman.
Quote from: criswyly on December 22, 2014, 07:42:56 PM
The 1999 PLU team should be ranked near the top. I saw that game and those boys were on fire. I don't think many DIII teams would have beat them that day....Ask Pat Coleman.
Actually, beating Rowan in the Stagg Bowl wasn't a particularly unique event. :) They executed the crap out of an offense that Rowan was in no way prepared to defend. Rowan had played its championship game at Mount Union the week before.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 22, 2014, 11:16:28 PM
Quote from: criswyly on December 22, 2014, 07:42:56 PM
The 1999 PLU team should be ranked near the top. I saw that game and those boys were on fire. I don't think many DIII teams would have beat them that day....Ask Pat Coleman.
Actually, beating Rowan in the Stagg Bowl wasn't a particularly unique event. :) They executed the crap out of an offense that Rowan was in no way prepared to defend. Rowan had played its championship game at Mount Union the week before.
Be careful what you wish for ;). I must admit, I was barely in college when this game was played, so I didn't know much about the team. But I assume there's a reason why they were a 7 seed, and not a top seed like most of the teams on Top 10 West teams list. They seemed to have gotten hot at the right time in 1999.
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 23, 2014, 06:54:25 AM
Be careful what you wish for ;). I must admit, I was barely in college when this game was played, so I didn't know much about the team. But I assume there's a reason why they were a 7 seed, and not a top seed like most of the teams on Top 10 West teams list. They seemed to have gotten hot at the right time in 1999.
They dropped a regular season game to Willamette, just like this year's Linfield squad.
That '00 SJU team was a 7 seed as well after dropping a regular season game to Bethel.
They were a 7 seed because the whole concept of this playoff format was new and the committee lacked a bit of a clue.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 24, 2014, 10:35:02 AM
They were a 7 seed because the whole concept of this playoff format was new and the committee lacked a bit of a clue.
Also: No bid for UMAC; No Pool A for SCIAC; Conference runner-up to a team with a few losses of their own.
Well, in fairness, most of the UMAC wasn't even in Division III at the time. :)
Pat Coleman..."I don't think many DIII teams would have beat them that day...." Where on our list of top DIII teams would "you" place the 1999 Lutes.
Something tells me that's the kind of question he doesn't touch.
I am looking for an update of this at the end of the season.
Thanks.
Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 14, 2018, 01:21:38 AM
I am looking for an update of this at the end of the season.
Thanks.
I usually take the liberty of updating it after a West team wins it all. It would be hard for non-Stagg Bowl winning West team to crack the top 10, given UWW and St. John's Stagg Bowl success over the years.
However, I suppose a case could be made for the 2016 Oshkosh team to be in the 10th spot over 2000 St. John's. That's the only thing that
might get updated if a West team doesn't at least get to the Stagg Bowl this year. That would be a good debate, on which team was better.
Both those teams lost in the Stagg Bowl 10-7 in their respected games.